City of Bloomington, Indiana Historic Preservation Commission, 10 Sep 2020

Previous Meeting Next Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: Bloomington Historic Preservation Commission, September 10, 2020

Description

meeting packet: https://bloomington.in.gov/onboard/meetingFiles/download?meetingFile_id=7548

A

I'd like to call the bloomington historic preservation, commission.

A

Meeting to order for thursday september 9th.

A

2020 at 5 pm. Thank you for attending this evening.

A

All right, connor I mean dee, can you do the color order.

A

Doug bruce yeah sam desaler.

B

Susan dyer.

C

She's here I'm asking her to unmute.

D

Okay, I'm here there you go good sam, just joined as well. If you want to.

C

Recall, sam sam desaler.

E

Jeff goldman.

F

Here, sam desaler just got here noted deb hutton here.

B

Lee san weiss.

E

John saunders, yes, chris sterbaum.

E

Duncan campbell.

E

Ernesto castaneda.

B

Eric ritzy, I'm here, jenny, southern.

A

Okay, uh we need a motion to prove our minutes.

E

Yes, sam desaler, yes, susan dyer,.

B

Yes, jeff golden yes deb hutton. Yes,.

G

John saunders, yes, derrick ritchie.

H

B

Motion carries six. Thank you, dean all right. Let's move over to the coa.

A

Staff review, maybe coa 20-37.

A

325 south rogers street, yes 325, south rogers, not 305 south.

C

Rogers, which is on the powerpoint uh we've seen this about you know three or four times this property in the last year,.

C

um This uh is in the prospect hill, historic district, the petitioner.

C

Actually, previously received a coa which is coa 2020 for the.

C

Installation of a fence, however, the petitioner approached me and.

C

Said he wanted to kind of change the plans a little bit? um What we're.

C

Going to do now is it's still going to be a well. It's not no longer going to be a wrought iron. It's going to be.

C

Strictly a vertical uh privacy fence made of wood um six feet.

C

Foot in height and the it's now going to start behind.

C

The midpoint of the front and rear building wall, so it's now more of a.

C

Actual real backyard fence and then over here on the side as well.

C

You can see so really. Defense is in a more favorable.

C

Condition than the earlier approved coa, it's now more of a backyard fence which.

C

Is preferred in the guidelines, the material and style defense meets the.

C

Guidelines as well and staff approved.

C

The next one coa 2039 is 919 east university, uh which is the.

C

Elm high historic district, uh the petitioner uh asked to remove a.

C

Mature oak, in the in the front yard, um I asked to see an arbors report.

C

Stating that the uh tree was in deteriorating or dying.

C

Condition um I I received that documentation. Here's a.

C

Picture of it, um the limbs really present a hazard.

C

Actually, last year a limb fell off and damaged the neighbor's car.

C

um So the guidelines do allow for removing mature trees if they are.

C

Certified as dying by an arborist, I received that documentation and staff.

C

Approved the removal.

A

All right, thank you, connor all right! We're going to move on to.

A

A commission review and we'll start with coa.

A

20-36 600 south woodlawn avenue um is the petitioner with us call.

I

Yes, hello, how are you good thank you, jerome for coming.

C

Okay, so uh this is in the elm heights historic district. The request is the.

C

Construction of a new covered entry, um I'm going to show you the old one.

C

Looks like this it fell. Apart, fell down due to.

C

Deterioration and I believe, a wind event, so the new covered entry will be a.

C

Shed roof will break off of the existing roof line.

C

uh Two four by four square steel columns, we'll paint it black to support it.

C

And columns will be anchored to the existing.

C

I believe here this existing slab of concrete.

C

This is a ranch-style home, so typically ranch-style homes have wide enough. Eaves.

C

They create a large enough overhang to create a sheltered.

C

Entryway without having to build an additional.

C

Covered entry, like we see on this house.

C

However, since a covered, entryway already existed there before and was.

C

Damaged due to you know a wind event, deterioration.

C

Staff finds that uh rebuilding the covered, entryway.

C

No way is detrimental to the character of the home and.

C

Would support this petition, however, staff would like to see.

C

You know, if possible, maybe decorative metal columns again instead of the.

C

Solid square, heavier steel- something lighter, I think, would.

C

Do more uh for this home than heavier thick steel.

C

So that said, staff would recommend approval of coa 2036.

A

All right, thank you, connor. um So let's do the.

A

Questions um jeff. I don't have any questions dan.

G

My only question would be for connor, and that is.

G

uh Are the lighter decorative metal columns more era appropriate than wooden.

G

Ones, yeah deb, so ranch homes would have.

C

Usually small wooden posts or decorative metal.

C

Posts, um you know nothing, no kind of fancy columns. It was very simple and.

C

Plain stated, and they they typically wouldn't have a.

C

A covered entrance that would come off the building like I said, the wide e would act as the covered entrance, so I.

C

Think if we can minimize the impact of this covered entrance, the more than.

C

It would be, and could I do, a follow-up uh would.

G

Those metal uh decorative so not solid um posts, be.

G

Strong enough for a new wind and not be blown away again,.

C

um Yeah, that's a great question. um I think really.

C

The answer is um how well they're anchored into the concrete.

C

um And how well they're they're anchored into the roof.

C

And are they allowed to be exposed to a lot of.

C

You know rain and if they're not kept painted they're going to deteriorate, the.

C

Rust and that's going to cause issues as well, so I think a lot of that might be a maintenance issue from the property owner perspective, but that's a great point. Thank you.

G

Thank you very much.

A

Why didn't you join us.

A

Nothing from late, okay, um susan now I don't have any questions.

J

I've lost the screen somehow here, but I was trying to look through.

J

That um did we get any comments from the elm heights association. We did not.

K

A

Sam, do you have any questions I do? uh This is uh for the petitioner.

F

Is what is the clearance between the slab and.

F

The lowest part of the structure- that's this is so let me I'm going to ask a.

F

Bunch of questions- and I think you can, if you can address them all in your.

F

Answer that would be great. um The next bit is, it looks like there's.

F

Just a fascist shown, I'm curious as to the construction of that shed roof. Whether it's I mean you've got shingles.

F

And paper and plywood and then what's the framing.

F

Under that and then what's holding up that framing uh it's pretty tight as far as I can tell so.

F

There's no beans shown on this drawing so I'd like to know.

F

What's holding up that and what the clearance is.

F

uh Under the beam.

I

Hi sam, how are you by the way it's good to see you? Oh hey, how's! It going joel.

I

I'm fine, our children were in preschool together.

I

I don't know, let me let me grab a scale.

I

I'm not 100 sure the the old the old roof was attached to the fascia.

I

And we originally thought of you know to put a gable back.

I

Into the root into the roof line, but we were advised by conor.

I

To avoid that, and understandably so, um I I'm not 100 sure without scaling.

I

It right now what the clearance would be because you're right it it. It tends to.

I

Get a hair tight um as far as the construction goes.

I

You know, there's not, you know, we'll lag it into the.

I

To the fascia underneath the gutter, and we will.

I

You know try to minimize the the head room loss of of the beam.

I

That supports it up front, um but we we anticipate, you know it's.

I

Obviously plywood paper she does want.

I

Shingles to match the the rest of the house, but we could also.

I

Do a different material that doesn't that doesn't.

I

Take up so much room as well. It's not how we have it drawn.

I

At this moment, um do you want me to grab a arc.

I

I'm in the office, you want me to grab an architect scale and give you that headroom for sure. Oh that's all right. I mean I think my my.

F

Largest concern is like, if, assuming that's a 6 8 door, which I'm.

F

Guessing from the air, it probably is yeah, uh it's probably like at the step.

F

It's 6 10 and then, if you're lagging into.

F

A the fascia you're only coming down from there.

F

Although it doesn't show it that it's not shown that way on your drawing your.

F

Drawing actually doesn't show any kind of support beam at all. It just shows the.

F

Columns bumping up into the bottom of the fascia.

F

Which, I think is, uh I think, there's some design work that.

F

Has not yet happened and that uh I am concerned that.

F

It's gonna, I I just don't know what it's gonna look like yet.

F

Does that make sense yeah, I I think the the.

I

The design as it stands is kind of a it's kind of a.

I

The whole reason we did the reason we're doing this for this lady.

I

She wants uh she wants to re-roof the house, but she wants to take care of this.

I

This nuisance up front first, and do it the right way.

I

So I think that's where the shingles are coming from.

I

Is that she's planning on re-roofing the house anyway.

I

And we're we're going to have rcv, you know roof the house for.

I

She's going to have to move the house and we work in a concert with them, of course, um so that's gonna! This is gonna, be.

F

Concurrent with the re-roof job, it's just you need to yeah we're just fine.

I

We're trying to get ahead of get ahead of it, so she can get that done.

I

um I, but we we don't necessarily.

I

And the challenge is staying as connor mentioned below the gutter onto the.

I

Fascia, if, if there's an accommodation for.

I

To do a different style of roof, you know sky's the limit as far as what she can.

I

Do this particular option is, can end up being less expensive for her.

I

But we can, we can you know we can um submit whatever you.

I

Guys want, as long as she gets a gets, a clean entrance and she gets she.

I

Gets a roof over her head, gotcha, hey connor! Would you go back to.

F

The elevation of that um of the the design elevation for a minute.

F

Because it it's not drawn, as far as I can tell you, you just said that you're.

F

Talking about putting it under the eve under the fascia and the.

F

Whole roof is drawn above the fascia, so I'm confused as to that.

F

What happened, I would prefer the way that.

I

We have it drawn. Perhaps I misunderstood, I.

I

I was, I didn't. I thought conor said that he wanted it to be.

I

Maybe you can clarify that forest connor. Excuse me for not understanding right.

I

Away, do you as drawn is that.

I

Okay, to die into the the greater plane of the roof, not below the gutter.

C

Yeah, I don't think there's there's a huge issue with that. I just didn't want.

C

To see a gable on that ranch roof! Okay! Well, if that's the case.

I

And we can, we can determine the height.

I

And you know we can go back as far as we can, because I.

I

I would I know that uh we, as the builder would.

I

Rather, have a little bit more pitch than less when you're, using the shingles.

I

F

I mean you want at least a three yeah so, but I I guess what I'm saying is is I.

F

Like to see where the you know where the support beam is.

F

Relative to because I don't think you're gonna be able to.

F

Get head clearance unless you put that beam.

F

At you know at the top of the door that makes sense yeah. I understand what.

I

I

Wouldn't we be able to to match the the height of the door and.

I

Then go up into the the structure of the roof. The field.

I

To get r3, as you said, that's probably right. Sam.

I

And is there an issue with that? If that's how.

I

It's constructed. Well, I I don't think so, but I mean we're not.

F

Seeing what you're proposing yet, if that's, what you're proposing that's not.

F

What we're looking at yeah, I understand, I think I think what.

I

What happened is we drew it to try to.

I

Rectify that gable, that conor didn't want to see.

I

And so um you know, it would just be just be a a ledger, beam that the.

I

The the roof sits on, we could hang, we could hang the the.

I

Roofing the little roof rafters from it and you know, but I understand you have.

I

To see it in drawing so tell me what the next step, what you need.

I

To see and I'll make sure it gets done, sam, yes, sir, is there anything else we.

A

Need to cover, I think, what we really need is some more.

A

Drawings to really understand.

I

Yeah, so for for our designer's sake, I'm going to ask for a.

I

Detail of the front.

A

Right beam that holds the the roof as it crop as it crosses the.

I

Two supports all right that sort of covers my.

F

Questions, I I mean if you want to sort of jump the gun on.

F

This one, we can say, ask him to come back, but uh with with.

F

Some new drawings, but uh and and also ask.

F

Your client, if they're, willing to uh consider more decorative columns at.

F

The corners because something period appropriate or something a little smaller. I noticed there's like three white verticals on the right side of the door.

F

And you can, you know, sort of echo what's what's going on over there.

F

But uh yeah just so you working with the language of what you.

F

Already got going on okay, so.

A

But um so joel, would you guys be opposed if we move.

A

This to another session- and you guys come back.

A

To us with join so we understand what you're trying.

A

To accomplish yeah whatever you need, man just want to.

I

Get this lady set up and safe and secure, could you.

F

Also ask them to do a side elevation, a front one and a side. One.

F

So we can see where the the three and twelve hits the roof.

F

I would just like for the rest of the commission to even be able to.

C

Have comments for already making decisions on the cla.

C

C

I mean we can vote and approve this as it stands.

F

I'm done questioning cause enough trouble.

A

um So I don't have any questions because we've already got them.

A

Covered at this point, deb you had another question.

G

uh I know sam just said it. Could we have a north or south elevation to see.

G

The slopes of the roof and the ground at the same time, in the steps thanks.

A

Thank you and derrick. Did you have any questions.

L

I have no questions so, let's move our comments.

A

And jeff's comments, I'm in favor of asking him to come back with a more.

M

Detailed plan: do you have any comments, all right.

A

Susan yeah I'd agree that it would be nice to see more plans.

N

J

Hello, how are you there? We go all right. I saw the unmute there.

J

um So yeah, you know we hate to design on the fly.

J

And um you know we ask everybody to pretty much.

J

Give us what what's going to take place so.

J

I think sam kind of caught it pretty good here.

J

And I think if the petitioner is willing to come back, I think that would be.

J

Probably the best, so we can get kind of a view of exactly what it's.

J

Going to look like thank you uh sam, I think.

F

I I only have two other comments. One is that I I agree with connor and I think.

F

That the four inch deal columns might be a little heavy and some decorative ones might work really well.

F

I think the other thing that you might consider is bringing those columns out.

F

To the end of this side, you know out of the corner of the sidewalk and that way you're another couple of feet. So that way you.

F

Might be able to avoid some of your head height issues so.

F

I think that sidewalk comes in oh wait, a minute, there's one. The plan.

F

Shows it coming in from the side, but the photograph looks like there's something.

F

Coming in from the front too, so I might have to retract that.

A

Okay, um so joel, are you good with the continuation.

A

I think joel left this, I don't think you went through all the.

L

Comments for everybody, okay, who's left.

A

Myself- and I don't have any comments and daring.

L

Yeah, I know it's kind of inconvenient, but I mean if we get these drawings.

L

Right this is going to be approved in a snap, so it's just about making sure we really know what's going on here.

L

That's it and julie our guest uh have any questions or comments.

A

We're hearing them um so, if we're good with postponing this all right, let's.

A

Move forward yeah, I think we heard um joel say that.

C

He was, he was okay with continuing it, so we're just going to put this on the next.

C

Agenda and joel can come back with some more drawings.

A

Thank you, joel all right. Let's move on to.

A

Coa 20-38 a lot on west 6th street neuroscience.

A

Conservation district, mr webb, are you with us.

O

Yes, I am thank you, and this is new construction.

A

Sure uh so this is the lot that you're seeing here that they're going to be.

C

Building on it's a vacant lot, um the request is for.

C

The construction of a single family home, the bungalow style home, approximately.

C

1430 square feet: uh 27 foot wide, 56 foot deep.

C

uh Front gable, with a 712 roof pitch vinyl lap, siding three and a quarter.

C

Sorry three over one or uh six over one um single hung windows.

C

Really to get a better picture of it, you can take a look at this one. This is the one on 1250 south 1230 southwest. It's going to look.

C

Very, very, very, very similar to that it's going to have concrete block.

C

Foundation split face exposed so looking at the design guidelines.

C

Which aren't complete yet, but we've certainly had a lot of conversation in the neighborhood about the guidelines.

C

They're, probably about 75, complete, complete the form, the scale, the height.

C

The orientation the setbacks of the proposed.

C

New construction, it really ticks all the boxes there.

C

um Fenestration, it's compatible with historic character. The district.

C

When working with infill and historic districts, the design goal is to be.

C

Differentiated from the historic structures, however,.

C

Compatible with really the character.

C

So it's kind of a difficult balance to strike and I think that this project.

C

Strikes that balance um maybe a little cl a little close on a.

C

Little too compatible thing, I mean it. I've seen houses like this over in.

C

Mcdole that almost looked identical with a little inset.

C

uh Porch, um however, with it with the newer materials, the vinyl siding that.

C

You know, I think that it does a good enough job of kind of different.

C

Differentiating itself as new construction.

C

So staff recommends approval of coa 2038.

C

Great, mr webb, do you have any additional information for us.

O

um No, he pretty much explained it. This is just a.

O

A bungalow that we're looking to do and we're basically we're just gonna, do a duplicate of uh the house that we did at uh 1230.

O

South fest um and.

O

uh It's just a you know, front front load house with a.

O

A little uh patty on the back, uh the the there's, no driveway, uh because.

O

This is uh directly adjacent to an alley and we were just gonna. Have the a.

O

Parking pad the at the back of the property, so we don't need to.

O

Really even worry about a driveway.

O

Paperwork, whatever you call that all right great. Thank you, mr webb.

A

uh Jeff questions yeah: this is for connor.

M

In your discussions with the neighborhoods around the guidelines.

M

Have you talked about vinyl signing yeah? We talked about vinyl, siding.

C

I think final sighting was discouraged um so.

C

It may not agree with the vinyl siding aspect of things.

C

But those guidelines aren't formalized. I shared this.

C

With the neighborhood design guidelines committee.

C

And there was some feedback on there kind of went a lot of different.

C

Directions, it was a chain, email wasn't very coherent, so I invited them.

C

To join the meeting tonight, or at least a spokesperson.

C

To kind of act as spokesperson for the group and give their feedback on the.

C

Project, thank you. That's all. I have.

G

No questions lee.

A

Okay, welcome back to this season. No, I don't have anything.

D

Doug no questions, sam, no questions.

A

I don't have any questions myself at this point.

A

uh Gary no questions and do we have any public questions.

A

Okay, all right, so let's uh move on to comments.

A

Jeff, so I have a quick comment: uh question.

M

Is there somebody from the neighborhood as part of this meeting.

M

Apparently, not nope doesn't look like it.

M

Okay, I don't have any comments. Son. Thank you. Jim.

A

uh My only it's a delightful little house and I.

G

Like the design, the only comment would be would be the.

G

Vinyl material for the siding and is it.

G

Okay, or not with the with the neighborhood guidelines, seems like a big.

G

uh A big question because there's so much of it so.

G

That's all right! Thank you. um Susan.

D

J

um Yeah, I'm you know, I would just wonder about the neighborhood and you know the.

J

The guidelines and vinyl, although you know, if there's no one here.

J

Tonight, and it seems like it was kind of unclear.

J

In the direction that may go, um I would not be too caught up in it, and.

J

And really part of it is because um I just did a uh garage kind of a.

J

A story and a half behind the house that the first one that you did.

J

And and my clients, or some people approached me that bought it.

J

And so I got to see the house that you built and I thought you did a pretty.

J

Good job and I thought it really added to the neighborhood, so I'm not too terribly worried about it with it. If it's vinyl or not really.

O

And I would say that there's a large amount of.

O

uh In that east side or sorry, west side, neighborhood there's.

O

There's a fair amount of vinyl uh already, so I don't necessarily think.

O

That it's gonna be anything that's out of place.

A

uh Stan, uh I think the petitioner did a great job with the.

F

Scale of the house, the penetration I mean it's, you know it's the same house.

F

That you use down the way, but it works here too. So uh good good, good call um again. You know I hate vinyl, it's not.

F

Recyclable, it's not sustainable. uh The draft guidelines do talk about.

F

Not wanting materials that have a wood grain imprinted on them, but they're the.

F

Draft guidelines and nobody's here from the neighborhood and there's not a.

F

Coherent message from the neighborhood so until they get it together, I'm not.

F

Inclined to hold anybody accountable to it.

A

Thank you sam. um You know, I don't agree with my fellow commissioners. I would.

A

Rather not have the vinyl signing on the house.

A

uh If you've been on sixth street and you're at the corner of six and maple, I built that house 20 years ago and we.

A

Use a certain team signing on it, it's never been repainted and it really.

A

Stands up in that neighborhood and I think putting vinyl in is not.

A

Necessarily what the neighborhood would like to see.

A

In the long run, because that house is going to be there for the next hundred.

A

Years so my comment would be I'd like to see.

A

That you would use the selection of signing and not the vinyl siding on the house.

C

Sam, if you have those guidelines in front of you- and I can't remember the.

C

Top of my head is, is vinyl in the not recommended materials for siding, you're, muted, sam you're, muted. So sorry,.

F

So they don't have, they have recommended materials.

F

They don't have not recommended materials.

F

So the recommended uh materials it says: uh building materials, whether natural.

F

Man-Made should be visually compatible with surrounded historic buildings.

F

When hardboard or concrete board siding is used to simulate wood, cladboard.

F

Siding it should reflect the gentle blah blah blah blah blah.

F

Products imitating the grain of wood should be avoided.

F

Unless they match existing siding and then three.

F

Recommended brick limestone clabbered cement, board, wood, shingles, stucco.

F

So it's not recommended, but it's not called out as a bad thing, so they don't.

F

It's not on the we like this list, okay, that that makes.

C

Sense, I kind of remember that now, okay, uh derek.

L

Yeah what I I really like about the style of building.

L

Is that, even though it's a bungalow, it's clearly.

L

Not built in the same era as 99 of the bungalows in town, so it's it's.

L

Discernible as a new building which yet it still fits in, so I really like.

L

This um I'm not a big fan of vinyl. I don't think.

L

Anybody is um but then again as it's been mentioned, it's not a band.

L

Item there's, no, you know, there's not a list of banned items.

L

So I think, with no one here from the neighborhood to speak up.

L

You know it's hard to, you know say anything else, but yes at this point.

A

All right, thank you. Derek approve, uh coa, 20-38.

G

E

Okay, then bruce yes, sam desaler, yes,.

B

Susan dyer, yes, jeff golden yes,.

E

Deb hutton: yes,.

B

And lee's, not here right, right, okay, it's john saunders! Yes,.

H

Chris sterbaum no okay motion carries.

B

Six two: zero. Thank you all right. Let's move on to coa.

A

20-40 331, east 16th street, I'm sorry 221, east.

A

16Th garden hill and street district is mr brawling with us.

A

Thank you, okay, all right, so uh this is a retroactive coa. It was on.

C

The last uh agenda, as a demo delay.

C

um I placed it as a demo delay on august 17th. At that time I didn't.

C

Realize that this was in an actual historic district, so on.

C

August 26th, the day before the meeting, I realized. Oh no, it's a historic district.

C

So that's when I told you guys the last meeting august 27 that I was going to push it to september 10th as a certificate of appropriateness.

C

And I contacted the owner and we worked it.

C

Out and got a coa submitted, so so here we are, um this is a retroactive.

C

It's the addition of a second story, um obviously you're going to alter the.

C

Roof line quite a bit as well replacement of windows and doors from.

C

What I can see used to be a three over one window here.

C

And some new siding as well. If you read the design guidelines of garden hill, it.

C

Says to prioritize retention of the roof's original shape, as viewed.

C

From the public way facade, it says vinyl and aluminum are.

C

Acceptable siding materials um if it's a continuation of what was.

C

Currently, on the structure and the it was not wooden, clobbered siding.

C

It was some kind of uh vinyl siding on there before you can.

C

See a picture here.

C

And the guidelines also say to retain the historic or.

C

Character, defining architectural detailing as well.

C

um So if you look at the the addition here.

C

um It really distinctly alters the scale of the building, the height of the.

C

Building the roof shape of the building, it's just incompatible with the design guidelines.

C

The replacement of the windows, while still the same size, don't maintain the.

C

Three over one pane configuration staff does support the new sighting.

C

Because the sighting that was replaced was not original.

C

Taking those into consideration, the staff would recommend denial of coa.

C

2040. all right, thank you, um jeff. Do you have any additional comments.

A

Mr rawley, uh I think it's noted in the probably in.

K

The packet here um we submitted for an alteration to the.

K

Permit on june, the.

K

Looking through to see what page that was in the packet.

K

Yeah looks like on.

K

Yeah page 41 of the packet.

K

I was out with covet, I was out of the picture. I had a contractor. Do this job.

K

Contractor resubmitted the permit from its original.

K

Submission to alter the roof line.

K

He got submitted it got sent over. I think, uh maybe in the notes. Maybe.

K

Someone could share, I don't know there was a call from the city at some.

K

Point that said, you know, questions regarding.

K

The permit um the revised permit or the new permit- and um they said it was.

K

It was fine, there was, there was nothing else done. We submitted something, nothing.

K

Else happened. I got a call from connor on.

K

August late august, notifying me of this. That was the first message I got.

A

Okay, all right, thank you, mr brawley um jeff. Do you have questions? I'm gonna.

M

Disqualify myself from this just did an appraisal on this property.

M

um As part of the sale of it, so I don't.

M

Think it's appropriate for me to deal with this.

A

All right, thank you, jeff uh dad, so for clarification. uh Mr brawley.

G

You did put it all through the building permit process.

G

And got permission from the building permit folks to go ahead with it.

G

And get sick and then your contractor went ahead and built this.

G

With these windows, this siding and the second story structure.

G

Added to the original house, and then you found out that you had to go through.

G

Also, the historic preservation process do I.

G

Have that crowd that timeline correct? Yes, so it is built, it does have those.

G

Kind of windows in it- and it does have a second story on it currently now.

A

Yeah um counter would like to do a little clarification.

A

On your last question, yeah, I just want to go over the timeline or.

C

The chain of events that happened here.

C

So the original uh permit and ccc that was issued to mr brawley.

C

Was for interior remodel only so that, of course, you know we looked at.

C

It no historic preservation is needed there and then at some stage.

C

uh I believe he he sent in for an updated permit, a new czc and there was a.

C

Miscommunication between planning and his contractors contractor.

C

Thought that he didn't need the new ccc or something like that.

C

And city planning thought they just weren't going to go ahead with the with the edition, so that was that. Well then, we get a report from neighbors that this had happened and planning alerted me and then said you know and.

C

Mr barley, as well and said you know, look we didn't get a ccc for this.

C

Second story edition, so it really was just a miscommunication uh between.

C

You know the city and and the property owner.

C

Of why this occurred, um I was brought into it originally, because.

C

Obviously, this type of an alteration is pretty substantial.

C

um Originally, we thought it was just going to be a demolition delay, but, like.

C

I said if we found out it's actually an historic district and that's why it's here as a coa.

A

Do you have anything else to add? No, I think. Yes, I need to listen to everyone.

G

Else's questions: first, thanks.

A

Susan, I don't even know where to start with this.

D

um So yeah I'm not going to ask any questions.

D

Right now, all right! Thank you, susan um good.

J

Kind of like susan in a way, but I think conor's helped clarify things a little.

J

Bit for me, so no questions right now, yeah so couple questions when did garden.

F

Hill become an historic district.

C

um I I don't know, I believe it was around 2008 or 2009. That's the.

C

Dates that are sticking to my head all right and when was this property.

F

Acquired by the current owner.

A

Mr bryan would have been in 2020. Oh it's just blown. So in 2020 you.

F

Required this property and did was there any, um uh did the seller.

F

Or did any of your real estate agents? uh Let you know that it was in an.

F

Historic district, no yeah, mr brawley, is a broker. Yes, I am.

F

ah You're a broker: okay, so you're in the business.

N

All right think, that's that's all I got for the moment all.

A

Right, thank you sam. um I don't have any questions as well at.

A

This time derrick it's o'connor.

L

um What is the consequence of denial, so the consequences of denial.

C

Is that the city can now enforce? You know a violation of title eight and.

C

um There can be a number of remedies uh to the situation I'll. Let uh legal.

C

Speak, I believe philippa is here with us. They can talk more on that yeah hi. So if you deny it.

B

um One of the remedies is abatement which would have him undo.

B

All the work that doesn't comply with historic preservation standards.

B

It could also be a fine so and the fine is for first violation up.

B

To uh it's, 2500.

L

Okay and uh how much of the real buildings left, underneath all that.

L

Not much okay, thanks jeff! That's all my question. Okay,.

A

Let's move on to comments um dan, just when.

G

With that last question of derricks of what how much of the original house was.

G

Left, does anyone do? Mr braley, do you have a picture of the house before it got rebuilt.

K

uh I do not have it handy, no, it was shown earlier here. It is. That would have.

K

Been that that would have been correct. Thank you very much. Any other.

A

Comments: okay, susan now,.

G

uh It's just uh stunning to see the change in the.

G

A

uh Doug any questions, urban comments.

J

um Yeah, I'm you know, I hate to see what we've got in.

J

Front of us here um it's.

J

You know, and it's it's something that we get faced with.

J

It seems like once every couple of years um where somebody's replaced windows.

J

With something or done something and then realized after the fact, uh we had a porch removed a few years.

J

Ago, if I recall uh here, I'm I'm concerned that undoing.

J

This isn't going to take us back to anything that.

J

At least, I would believe if the, if the, if the.

J

There's not that much remaining of the original.

J

Character and I'm I'm kind of concerned about the the issues on the.

J

Communication, um I mean, I know stuff happens. I know.

J

We've been operating under extraordinary circumstances and so.

J

Communication since march, with with city planning or city.

J

You know any any department, and it's just it's it's just because we've all been hunkered down and trying to figure out.

J

How to communicate from home and emails have gotten lost and.

J

Phone calls don't get returned, I I've been.

J

A part of that, the last few months on my own and also with with other departments.

J

So I'm more concerned that that you know.

J

I'm not happy with what's happened here. I'm I'm not going to be pleased with.

J

What we could do to it, I don't think it gets us back to where we started and then I'm also not terribly happy.

J

That there could have been some communication breakdowns that led to.

J

This and we've got to find a way to to make.

J

Sure that doesn't happen again, so I'm still trying to figure out in my.

J

Mind how I wrap everything around that, but that's my.

J

Comment for now thank you, doug sam.

A

Oh yeah, I I maybe want to address a little bit about what.

F

Doug was talking about um historic districts have been around.

F

Bloomington for a long time- and I agree the whole reason I'm on the.

F

Hbc is because I pulled the building permit and got dragged in front of the hpc kicking and screaming.

F

And so I've been fighting for transparency.

F

Ever since that said,.

F

You know every real estate agent, every builder every broker knows.

F

That there are historic districts scattered throughout the city, and I.

F

Don't think they're, it's part of your due diligence at this.

F

Point to figure out if you've got something that is in an overlay district, that's in an historic district. That's in.

F

uh You know what your you know: what conditions you're dealing with.

F

um There is a communications breakdown. True, that's not the purview.

F

Of the hpc, we need to encourage better communication.

F

But planning and planning and the monroe county building.

F

Department are the folks that need to get that together and make that happen.

F

Our job is to take a look at this building.

F

In an historic district and say, is this okay.

F

uh I think that's the question we all have to answer for ourselves and.

F

I think I know what I think.

F

If you go back to the original picture for a minute of the original house,.

F

Connor, I don't think that's vinyl siding you.

F

Look there's original trim on the front facade window, there's a little.

F

You know a drain cap and all that uh it looks like their original columns.

F

Which have now been replaced with treated four by fours.

F

You know the the everything on this house has been all the original.

F

Detailing has been kind of stripped away.

F

So it's probably a replacement siding. I don't think it's vinyl, because.

F

You know you look at that, and it looks like some kind of lap six.

F

Inch lap siding and then there's a four inch down in and under.

F

But it doesn't have that telltale uh bit of trim around the windows as it.

F

Screams vinyl, so I I might argue with with connor a.

F

Little bit about the pre-existence of vinyl, there.

F

That said, the scale of this is really unfortunate. The configuration.

F

Of this is really unfortunate. um I'm going to.

F

Have a hard time doing anything but denying this one and I think that's all I got to say.

A

A question or comment: um well, yes, two comments, one on uh with some. We.

G

In matlock heights historic district in the last six months, we have two new.

G

Neighbors and both said that they only learned after they bought.

G

The house that it was in a historic district both turned out to be okay with it, uh but their.

G

They're real estate agents, their own brokers and the ones selling the house.

G

No one mentioned that at all: that's two families in the last six months.

G

So it's real estate, people too, not just a building.

G

Planning, commission- and the second thing is in some of the other.

G

Coas we've addressed since we're looking at the.

G

Street side here with that big second floor two-story.

G

Wall we've denied coas and made people or persuaded people to switch their.

G

Designs to look more like a house on the street side, the public way the.

G

Main street- and this looks like a great big wall with a bunch.

G

Of windows in it, it doesn't look as look like a house from the street side.

G

So that's my comment. Yes, okay, um derek! Do you have any.

A

Questions or comments yeah.

L

I mean this is unfortunate on a lot of levels.

L

And I think sam covered most of them um and you know.

L

This it's just this, isn't: okay um and the fact that you know there was.

L

Communication errors and covid had something to do with it.

L

Yeah I mean I want to empathize with that. I do but.

L

Wow I mean this is um this is pretty colossal.

L

And I would recommend denial. Thank you. It's that's about a bad president.

A

Thank you, derrick, and I believe we have.

A

Public uh from the neighborhood with this this evening,.

A

uh Phil, are you still here with us.

E

Yeah hi: this is carrie slough for garden hill, neighborhood association,.

E

Thank you carried, you have a comment. uh We were just sick about this.

E

We called it in uh the house used to be one of the ones.

E

That I would take people on tours and show them what a nice.

E

Job had been done in redeveloping the house.

E

We take issue with deciding I could quote from the guidelines.

E

Where it talks about not downgrading siding from what was.

E

Existing on it, even if it was a replacement.

E

Sighting the architectural details that have been lost.

E

Would be much easier addressed if the siding were wide as it was at one.

E

Time but the bottom line in this is we're.

E

Going to have to live with this for ever what's been taken out.

E

I think can be put back with judicious planning we're concerned. Most.

E

About the house going from contributing to.

E

Non-Contributing and the dutch lap siding is just a slap in the face.

E

If you have questions, I'd be happy to answer them, but- and I can support.

E

Everything I've said with uh our guidelines.

L

I would like to add in there I mean unfortunately,.

L

Since there isn't much of the house left, sadly,.

L

This is going to be probably non-contributing, no matter what happens.

L

To it next, so I just want to make that clear, because even if they rebuild the house to almost exactly what it looked like.

L

Before it's still not the same house, um so I just want to lay that out there.

L

But I totally feel I sympathize and empathize with.

L

What you're saying yeah it could look a lot.

E

Better, oh yes, it could no doubt about that. Yep.

A

All right, thank you, derrick. um I don't have any additional comments. I'm.

A

Sad that some of the people in our real estate community.

A

Are not going back and checking and that's something.

A

That has been brought up for our board multiple times.

A

Last year, yes, and even connor kim, did a presentation.

A

To our group, about historic properties and even.

A

um So you know let's uh move on, I need a motion.

A

For this I'll move to tonight, okay apple. Second, thank you. Dad.

A

B

D

Susan dyer, yes,.

G

Yes, the motions to deny correct yes,.

B

John saunders, uh yes,.

D

Okay motion denied 4 1-1.

F

Motion carries for denial, yes right better words. The the motion for denial.

C

Has been approved, the motion is the application is denied uh jeff. Thank you for being with us I'll.

C

Be in contact with you uh next week about.

C

What's going to happen since the coa has been denied and we can, we can talk about.

C

Remedies and solutions. Okay, thank you. Thank you.

A

Now we're going to move on to demolition, delay.

A

424 have south walnut uh josh. You want this this evening.

P

Yes, sir, I'm here right and matt you're with this team.

A

I thought I saw him up there all right, connor, let's.

A

uh Yeah, um you know we're no stranger to this now. This is the third agenda. It's.

C

Been on um you know, it's the.

C

Players, club building boxes, restaurant mitchell's.

C

Brothers, you know built it circa 1926., um you know after we did a site visit.

C

uh Last week I took some photographs here I'll go through those.

C

So uh you know looking northwest looking southwest over here. There's.

C

There's br it's a wood frame building and it has brick.

C

Veneer on on two sides of it: um here's.

C

Some operable awnings that we saw you know they still have their.

C

Hinges here, so these would originally open up to ventilate the building.

C

um Here's the the rear of the building some pictures here. This is an extension.

C

That was built onto an originally an open, two-story uh porch. They enclosed.

C

The portion and built another open porch on the back of it to create some.

C

More living space, because this is an apartment here on the second floor.

C

Of the two-story portion um here you can see a view looking at the.

C

Roof um on the inside as well.

C

Here notice, uh there's a pretty saggy beam, but we believe.

C

Because that's the case, because there used to be a column here that was removed, um so you lose the support. You're gonna.

C

Sag um and then that's the.

C

First floor of the two-story portion of the building.

C

So you know our various opinions about the varying condition of the.

C

Structure and how salvageable it is well, of course it is salvageable anything.

C

Enough time and money is salvageable, but you know whether the economic or.

C

Technical, um you know whether that exists or not.

C

That's up to the hpc, I'm looking at this, as you guys should. I want to remind you.

C

This is demolition delay. This needs to be released, let the full demolition happen, or this needs to be a exploration of.

C

Designation, um I shared a staff report with you guys.

C

Delving into the building's history and the history of the boxman's.

C

At the last meeting, I hope you had an opportunity to read that.

C

Based on what I was looking based on my research, based on the criteria for.

C

Designation, the 10 criteria: there are three historic criteria and.

C

There are seven architectural criteria. I find that it is eligible.

C

Under 1a and 2f for historic designation and I would.

C

Recommend forwarding it to the council at this stage.

C

While most of the historic fabric and immediate vicinity has been removed or.

C

Severely altered uh this building retains more than enough of its original form and materials to convey its historic.

C

Nature, um you know, and I was particularly impressed with the building's history itself.

C

I know over the last the second half of its life. It may have been a.

C

House of a building of ill repute, perhaps or maybe.

C

You know some very degree of businesses were in there, but.

C

That wasn't the case for the first half of its life. You know it was attributed.

C

To the boxman's, a very, very successful and nationally.

C

Recognized restaurant, um so I just wanted to remind you guys.

C

That as well so um yeah staff recommends forwarding demo.

C

Delay 2017 to the common council for designation.

C

Thank you, jeff questions. uh I don't have any questions.

A

Jeb, how about you question questions all right.

J

No questions sam, do we have anybody from the community.

F

Here to speak uh to the proposal to demolish this.

A

Building, I don't see anybody.

F

All right, uh I don't have any uh questions.

A

I don't have any questions myself, darin yeah. I mean I'd like to technically know.

L

At least you know in a structural way how these two buildings.

L

Are attached to one another, um I don't know if that's going to make any.

L

Decision any difference in the decision I make.

L

But I believe you know you know one is a little less in good.

L

Shape than the other, um and I'm not sure that.

L

Makes much difference to me either, but we'll get to that later. I just wondered if anybody had any idea how these two buildings are, they.

L

Physically attached to one another I.e, they can't be separated.

A

um Matt you're with us.

Q

Yes, sorry about that.

Q

Conor may know more about the the history of the.

Q

Two structures: um he seemed to think that they maybe were built separately.

Q

You can determine from the interior that there's.

Q

A fairly large um common wall.

Q

Between the structures that has been at some point appears to have been opened.

Q

Where the player's pub is formally was open together, so.

Q

I don't know if that was a firewall at some point.

Q

That was then opened up. um You know structurally.

Q

They appear fairly independent in terms of the.

Q

You know the two-story building is obviously has a second floor and then a.

Q

Roof and then the one-story uh portion has.

Q

Its own structure and roof, as you can see from.

Q

Connor's photos, that is, you know, quickly, failing.

Q

So I don't, I don't know if that answers your question.

L

It's a start, I guess I mean I've been in this building hundreds of times actually.

L

I've been in both of them um over the last 20 years of my life.

L

So, and I always had the feeling that they were actually separate buildings.

L

That were sort of opened up to attach to one.

L

Another at some point, but uh just just a.

L

Structural question: thanks all right. Thank you. Man.

A

A

Let's move on to um comments, jeff comments.

M

So after uh doing my tour of the building.

M

This building has significant damage um and.

L

Maybe I'm sorry jeff both buildings, because they're.

L

They're actually, two different buildings.

M

They are tied together and the the first level goes into the second building.

M

As you well know, um so that's one point.

M

You know we're not talks, we're not supposed to talk about financial.

M

Feasibility, but you know, there's a bid in there to.

M

Replace that roof, which is uh not financially feasible, to come up.

M

With anything uh as we were at the site, we talked about.

M

Maybe just say: saving the facade. I think that that would be a mistake.

M

Because you're gonna end up with a building that looks weird and.

M

uh Then I'm context uh this, this uh part of the city has.

M

Changed significantly within a block, there are lots of new.

M

Construction there and, while I I think, it's important to.

M

Remember uh the the inhabitants of this building.

M

You know connor's point around the history of it. I get that.

M

um But I'm in favor of uh releasing this permit.

M

And allowing it to move forward into something new.

A

All right, thank you, jeff deb comments. uh In this two comments, I think.

G

uh One in this one and it may be cosmetic only but.

G

Looking at the southwest players pub and there they made an attempt which again.

G

May be only cosmetic but to replicate the columns. The brick.

G

Columns with limestone caps uh of the two-story building, which have.

G

Even though it's all brick, they still have two side columns, north and south.

G

With limestone top on them, so there's been some attempt to make it all one which doesn't make one whole building, but it does make.

G

Mean someone made a replica made an attempt to make one.

G

uh One kind of building in looks, and personally um I'm more interested in.

G

Seeing it uh saved to some extent uh because of.

G

The wonderful rich history um ins- I I don't mind looking at blocks of.

G

Which are mostly modern and then there's some historical piece in the middle.

G

um It still reminds us of our history, and hopefully we could find a way for.

G

The business to build enough around it.

G

To make it financially worthwhile, thank you dad.

A

Susan, I'm in agreement with jeff on this one after walking through so.

D

Yeah I'm in favor of releasing it. Thank you, susan, sam.

F

um The building does have a rich history. The building is a disaster structurally.

F

There's very little left, that's not intertwined and falling apart.

F

With the exception of the front, facade and.

F

Given the surrounding context, uh it's difficult for me to.

F

Spend the political capital we'll need to spend to send this one out for.

F

Designation, so I'm torn about this one, but I'm.

F

um I'm leaning to let it go.

G

When we do things like uh designate or letting it go rather than designating it.

G

Can we put in caveats such as say save, you know.

G

Five percent of the facade and incorporate it in some creative way.

G

Is there any way to do that kind of thing? Oh dad, because this is not in a.

C

Historic district or locally designated, so this is a design review. If this was.

C

For a coa we could certainly do that, but because this is demo delay, we can't.

C

um You know I I'm like the rest of my commission members, I'm on.

A

The edge on this property again, I hate to see a building like the.

A

Mitchell, like this building two story going away.

A

um Losing the paris club not so much.

A

The the north side of that building- it's it's really in pretty bad shape.

A

And they've got a lot of stuff going through it, but on the other hand,.

A

The two-story we looked at it and I think that it could be saved.

A

And they've already done a lot to it. Residing and new windows.

A

um So this can occur. I hate to see another one.

A

Especially the rich history behind this property.

A

With the box funds, but that's my comments.

A

Derrick, what are your comments? Well, I have a certainly a soft spot.

L

Because I was part of the consulting crew.

L

Many many years ago that helped them tear off that horrible.

L

Front sighting off of this house, it was repulsive.

L

And was able to uncover the m on the top of the building, which.

L

You know we were cheering. We finally saw that that it was all still there.

L

Behind all those horrible flaps of wood, um I have to say.

L

That there's and I know connor, told a little bit more of the story about.

L

Boxman and his relationship with colonel sanders.

L

But actually, um to give you a little more detail, it was a part of colonel.

L

Sanders first tour um and he toured.

L

All over the country, mostly the midwest when he started.

L

And he would knock on restaurant doors and say listen. I got this secret recipe.

L

Let me make it into your restaurant and I'll show you how darn good it is.

L

And then you can sell my chicken and every piece I get. You know a.

L

Percentage of every piece you sell every piece of chicken you sell, and so the boxman's took him up on this.

L

Deal as did many restaurants across the midwest.

L

And they started making his chicken and it was pretty fun famous at boxman's.

L

Now, later on down the road, what happened was colonel sanders.

L

Started his own, you know franchise and his own, uh basically his own business, so.

L

He knocked on those doors and said: hey. You know that agreement. We had well, it's null and void. If you want to.

L

Continue to to make my fried chicken, you have to open up your own franchise, which is what mr boxman ended up doing.

L

South of this building many many years ago, so I just thought I'd throw out that.

L

Some of the details of that that interesting story.

L

Is actually featured on a history program on the history channel many many.

L

Years ago, his tour through the midwest, and we were one of the the stops along the way and the boxman's restaurant was one of those.

L

Stops um I would like to also bring up.

L

The fact that the mitchell brothers building on.

L

Third and washington, which was just as bad, I mean the back of the.

L

Building was caving in on third and washington. Well that.

L

Building was saved, and it still stands today on third and.

L

Washington, amongst you, know out of context, as we've said.

L

With all the other buildings around it, but it stands alone, and it reminds us.

L

That at some point in time, in our past there.

L

Was a family called the mitchell brothers family and they built these kind of these buildings and, of course, um it's in.

L

Great shape now, if you haven't taken a tour of it, it was uh have been abandoned for probably a decade when.

L

It was restored, it's a wonderful building. Now the same thing can be said.

L

For the mitchell brothers, building on uh hillside and walnut.

L

Which was when I was going to college if you lived in that place,.

L

That was some creepy crawly stuff. It was in horrible.

L

Horrible shape again, we've got, um I think it was jeff luke, not part of.

L

The jeff here um they bought the building and restored it and sold it and now tour that building.

L

It's absolutely wonderful, not only three or four buildings north of the.

L

Building we're talking about now is another restored building from.

L

The same era, which was in horrible horrible shape.

L

And it was fixed up and now have amazing, lovely apartments. On the second floor.

L

And a business on down below, so I would propose that.

L

This is an important decision when I posted up on bloomington fading for.

L

Instance, this building was going. It was outrage now if this were actually.

L

A physical meeting that people could go to again and they would feel comfortable going to something like that. I think.

L

You would have a crowd in this room who would have.

L

A lot to say about this building and I think.

L

I would recommend that we go ahead and take the chance.

L

And we let the common council make the decision on this.

L

And let the people and the public have a chance to find out about this, because.

L

A lot of people don't know about this, yet it hasn't been published in the.

L

Papers nobody's as knows about this, so the.

L

Public has had no exposure to this information and I think um I think we need to let um the public know that this is.

L

Happening and we need to let the common council decide this.

L

And I would recommend we send it to them and let them make that decision.

L

um In front of the community, thank you, oh thank you derek. Are there.

A

Members of the public that have a comment.

R

Like to say something, yes, please.

R

Another option might be to delay it for another meeting.

R

In that way, there could be publicity about it.

R

I know there's a newspaper reporter on the on the.

R

Meeting right now, that might give you more of a sense of how the community.

R

Feels about it if it was publicized a little bit and give.

R

You a better idea of what you'd be looking at as far as the.

R

City council hearing: that's all.

J

Hey john, yes, uh I didn't have a chance to comment. Oh I I.

A

Had doug, I didn't mean to pass you. I don't think you heard me at that time.

J

Okay, I I I get your I get your deb and your doug.

J

Confused sometimes.

J

You know I wanted to add I I have been intrigued by the information.

J

That that conor has discovered on this, um I'm I'm.

J

I I'm I'm kind of on the fence about uh a portion of the building, which is a.

J

Part, that's got me torn I've toured the building uh a while back.

J

For a client, I've spent some time there actually.

J

With a friend that was in a band that played there a lot so I'd go and watch.

J

His band play and after I toured the building when it was.

J

Empty, I was uh pretty disgusted that I bought food.

J

There, based on the condition of the single story.

J

Portion of the building and holes in the walls and the condition you.

J

Know the the kitchen and and block and water intrusion.

J

It it really, you know that portion of the building is certainly.

J

uh In my eyes, I've got some issues, um I'm I'm a little on the fence about the.

J

Two-Story portion, you know it's, it's not.

J

Like the other mitchell buildings that are entirely brick.

J

Facades around uh all four sides or three of the sides. You know it just.

J

Has that brick facade on the front that was added and.

J

And you know not much care taken for the other sides. I I think that this.

J

Certainly was was two separate buildings. I I know matt mentioned that there's there is a pretty good demising wall inside.

J

That looks like uh if you tore the single story portion.

J

Down the the two-story portion could remain.

J

I'm never too concerned with wooden porches and decks on the backs of some.

J

Of these old buildings, because most of them are fire hazards anyway, but it really isn't much to replace those so.

J

I'm still kind of on the fence here about this.

J

Building um I, I certainly think that there's been enough changes off and on.

J

Over the years to the single story, portion um and I'd, you know again it's it's hard for us to let these buildings.

J

Go it's also, not the only mitchell building. That's that's left.

J

But I'm also intrigued by some of the information on boxman's and I remember.

J

Going there as a kid along there somewhere, so I kept thinking.

J

It was next door anyway, that's my comments for now, all.

A

Right, thank you. Doug.

P

um Can I say something guys: this is uh josh yeah josh.

P

um Just to address a couple of the comments.

P

One for mr richie, uh I actually own two of those mitchell buildings that he.

P

Was talking about the one that's remodeled there, uh 1300 south walnut street and then the other one there? um I guess.

P

Everyone kind of knows it as the evil by the needle building and so.

P

I do like those are actually my buildings. I love those buildings. I think.

P

They're great, um and so I I respect the process and.

P

And everything, and so like so I get everyone's feelings here, and so this.

P

Wasn't like you know, filing for the permit wasn't taken lightly. I guess is, is my point there with respect to mr.

P

Richie's comments and then deb, um like our new.

P

Are like going forward, that's what we we wanted to pay homage.

P

To the old, the old facade um we already planned to incorporate.

P

Something in a sense to that you know to the.

P

Tradition or the history of the old building itself, and so uh I know we're technically not allowed to show you guys.

P

Any of that, um but that was already in our plans and.

P

In the works as well even before we we filed for the demo permit man so.

G

Thank you very much. Thank you, john. So josh.

L

I just had a question I want to I'd like to follow up with.

L

Based on that, um you know when you say, you're going to incorporate.

L

I mean how much of what we see now generally on the front.

L

You think will remain, I guess is the easiest way I could put it. I mean.

P

Ideally, this is mr richie correct. It is I'm.

L

Sorry, josh, yes, it is, and so uh right now.

P

Essentially, none and so of what you see, but what we would replace it with would.

P

Pay homage to the the entire facade essentially and so.

P

The the new structure, you would see the remnants of.

P

Of the old building- and so um I don't know if there's any way to.

P

Actually send that to you guys, you know and let you take a look at what we had.

P

Planned on, but what, in kind of the rationale for.

P

That is, there's there's a lot of different types.

P

Of bricks, there's been changes over time and and we just.

P

Didn't feel that we could save anything I mean, even if you look at the corner.

P

Right there I mean there's, there's structural issues, there's.

P

There's miscellaneous brooks that uh that you know over the period of the 100.

P

Years or 80 years um I don't know that we could find or.

P

Match anything and so like it's uh and that's why we made a determination.

P

That we did to file the permit the way we did just because we didn't think.

P

It made sense to try to save this one like we did, the others.

A

All right, thank you. Josh.

A

Okay, we need to have a motion please, so I just want.

C

An immersion I just want to kind of chime in here a little bit about this.

C

uh This can't technically go until october 30th.

C

For your 90 days, um however, if you are serious about recommending.

C

Designation, that has to happen at the first meeting in october to avoid.

C

Missing any important deadlines. I know we've had that issue in the past. I.

C

Didn't want that to happen again, so there's your timeline for that. So we.

C

Don't have to take action right now at this meeting, um but definitely action by the first meeting in october.

C

Secondly, uh they're speaking on the financial.

C

Aspect there are, there are definitely grants available out there to help.

C

Restore and rehab a building like this, you know.

C

Not just the facade but internally as well and structurally.

C

I know there's a 20 federal tax credit, although you have to be on a national.

C

Register or eligible for the national register for that to apply um when you're talking about a you know.

C

500 000 rehab. That's a significant amount of.

C

Money as well that you could save through that tax credit.

C

There are state programs as well. You know I'd be happy to to talk to the.

C

Petitioners about that I just wanted to say that there is money.

C

Out there to help save these types of buildings,.

C

There's a giant historic preservation fund that we, as blue museum, have access.

C

To because we're a certified local government, you know the reason you guys got to have continuing education every year is to fulfill that clg requirement.

C

And we just haven't taken advantage of that money. I mean they're, giving that.

C

Money out that no one's taken advantage of it, so you know there are things like that that we can tap into.

C

To help save some of these structures, rather than let them go.

C

Because they're you know too expensive or not. You know.

C

Financially, economically feasible to do so.

C

And then, lastly, I just want to say: we've been talking about, you know one.

C

Part of the building versus the other part of the building and and and to the.

C

Best of my ability they were built both of those pieces.

C

Were built between 1925 and 1926, uh maybe one right after the other, maybe.

C

Both at the same time- but you know- and I think it's it's easy.

C

To forget, when looking at it, because the the mitchell brothers.

C

One with the m on it, the the windows have certainly been altered and changed.

C

But I believe that you know you need to remember that this was probably all.

C

One architectural intent, one design that was slowed together. So if you just rip.

C

One off and leave the other. I don't think that that's really a.

C

Viable solution from a from a historic preservation, um you know.

C

Standpoint, just as the staff- and that is my.

C

Profession, I just wanted to remind the hpc that I really wouldn't be fulfilling mission of historic preservation.

C

You know um so that's what all I had to say what I wanted to add to it.

L

Connor, could I add one more thing, and that is.

L

Based on what you just said, there is no rush to make this decision.

L

It wouldn't it be, I mean I I think it would be. This is my personal opinion.

L

Appropriate to do one more, let's just wait and see.

L

Because we I the public, doesn't know about this.

L

So we don't know how important these two buildings are to.

L

The our community and if we just say yeah, go ahead and.

L

Tear them down and then, if that's what's in the paper tomorrow,.

L

And the public had no chance to talk about it or know about it or find out.

L

About it, it just seems like a real shame to me, but hey mr richie, can I can I say another thing: this is josh.

P

Again, um there was an article in the paper and- and so I looked it up.

P

Just now on the ht as far as comments go, there's only 20 comments on there.

P

And so you know you compare that to say the chocolate moose whenever that was.

P

Brought up to the commission, you know there were thousands.

P

In there, and so like it was published in the paper and so.

P

Like I guess just to say that the public has had a chance to comment, and so far.

P

Only 20 have online. When was this article published um right.

P

After I filed my permit so probably about a week to a week and a.

P

Half after I don't have the exact date, sir, but it wasn't, it was in the paper. Actually it's on the front page.

N

Okay august 3rd dairy.

L

Okay, thank you. I didn't. I didn't see it.

M

Oh, it is the harold times, um so I have a point of order here. Nobody.

M

Has the paper so the only person that can make the.

M

Motion is john.

M

So in the future I think maybe we should include that.

M

Form in the packet good point, jeff good point.

A

A

I think it would be best if we could put this on our next agenda to our next.

A

Meeting and do a little more research.

A

Before we let it go and see if there is any more interest from the public.

A

Personally, I've talked to people, I've known and.

A

The people I've spoken to are opposed to letting this.

A

Property go away yet.

C

Yeah, okay, so you know I think jeff is, is kind of jumping at the bit to read.

C

The demolition delay um release um you know we can certainly do.

C

That jeff, um you know you want me to hold.

C

This up to the camera- and you can read it.

C

You're, muted, I'm sorry, jeff is muted.

M

I'm not sure, and it sounds like that- maybe the commission wants to wait so.

M

I'm not willing to push the issue.

M

But I do think that it has been exposed and I have been asking around.

M

And you know people think oh, it's kind of cool, but.

M

You know so I'm going to to you know if the rest.

M

Of the commission would like to wait, I'm willing to do that.

C

Okay, so we don't have to do anything. No, you know we can just move on to the next.

C

Point of business and I'll I'll re I'll put this on the agenda.

C

For the next meeting in september, well, do you know what the this is.

B

Philippa, do you know what the commission wants to do? I think they.

B

Probably need to talk about whether they want to table it.

B

Or continue it so philippa, I from what I understand.

C

They don't have do they have to make a motion to table or continue a demo delay. That still has you know 40 days left well, no, but.

B

But only two people have said what they thought really about that issue. As far.

B

As I can tell, can we do a straw poll.

B

Sure I mean just some more discussion, I mean you had one four and one against.

B

So exactly so, I think it's clear that I'm.

M

For uh releasing that the permit.

A

Okay, I'm against debs against there's one two.

F

I'm not going to contribute, I'm I'm. I'm torn.

F

That said, I did look at derek's, uh fading bloomington comments and.

F

There's not a strong, leaning for or against.

F

It's leaning a little bit like oh, it's kind of a dump.

F

There are one or two that are like: oh, more yuppie apartments, yay.

F

And another one that was like no, but it's not overwhelming.

F

You must save this, so I I don't know how much.

F

More, uh I mean if we get enough more exposure by a different reporter in.

F

The paper it may change things, but I'm a little.

F

A

L

Just so you know sam they're, two pages so you're looking at.

L

One of the two, but that's okay,.

C

Okay, I've sent out a poll, although I don't know if this is going to work.

C

Because this is going to go to all the meeting participants instead of just the commissioners, so I actually, I can't do this.

C

So never mind so, what's the feeling of.

A

A

um Go ahead all right, so we continue or take action.

J

uh I'm I'm kind of like sam and jeff on this in a way just like I.

J

Said if this, if this building just had more of the.

J

Brick, more of the mitchell building presence.

J

That the others have I've I've seen too much in the single.

J

Story portion and you telling me that they were both built at about.

J

About the same time uh is, doesn't help me out.

J

So I would say right now: I I don't see where having some more time for input is.

J

Going to be a bad thing and and releasing it.

J

Immediately, you know obviously lets it just lets the.

J

Action get started, but I don't, I think if we have some time.

J

I'm I'm not against that. uh You know I'm. I guess I would be for against releasing.

J

It right now just to give us some more.

A

Time, susan yeah and I'm certainly fine with.

D

Giving it some more time, um yeah.

A

All right, it sounds like that most members are in agreement.

A

To allowing us to put this on our next agenda.

A

uh Coming up, uh two weeks is, and I'm okay with that, so I think.

A

That's what we should do.

N

Okay, okay, josh we're going to move you up to the next meeting.

P

Oh, that's fine! Thank you. Thank you for your patience, josh.

A

Thanks josh um absolutely thank you.

C

Thank you, not the same windows. Look at all the brick on the front of.

G

The one story building there.

N

Yep there's the old kfc that he built that he built in his front.

C

Yard, because the boxing henry boxing lived there: okay.

A

um Let's move on to new business: this is derek richie's.

C

Favorite material for buildings that was a lot of fun to.

L

Take off- and I remember when it was the uh um pillar, green or.

A

The pit stop right there. There we go yeah.

L

The pit stop yep, that was a wonderful spot.

A

All right, so, let's move on to new business.

A

They said we have restaurant design guidelines, that's in our own business.

A

uh Under new business, um I kind of want to talk about.

A

More of the mitchell brothers homes, I have learned that that the corner of.

A

Hillside want around the street to southern drive.

A

That's a whole neighborhood of mitchell brothers, homes and buildings.

A

There are five that I believe um they were built by the mitchells.

A

Alongside the building that josh owns they're in the west side of walnut.

A

But we have these five houses and it's my understanding and all five.

A

Of them were built by the mitchells and if you go down southern.

A

There are three more houses: uh 112 I mean 114.. You can see their brick here.

A

And then across the street there are two more.

A

This one here and the one next to it, um and so I wonder if this is something.

A

We would like to try to save this neighborhood.

A

And there's some really interesting houses through here, hey john, didn't.

M

Those these properties just transfer or they're, going to transfer.

A

They're going to transfer, and so far I haven't seen the transfer.

A

In the paper yet, but I do know, there's a pending offer on it. I heard something.

M

About that yeah, the pink house I think, was built.

A

Around 1890, uh it has eight foot doors.

A

And 12 foot ceilings, um and then this is this one here, the.

A

Yellow house is one of the original farm houses.

A

Built there in the neighborhood, and if you remember a while back ago, our.

A

Regency came to us modifying a house, that's been designated.

A

It's a mid-century modern, around vermilion.

A

They wanted to add that side entrance, and that was several years ago.

A

Yeah, unfortunately, to turn the front porch off.

C

Oh, the the gentleman who owns this property called me last week and wanted.

C

To know if he could paint it white.

C

And I convinced him not to do so so luckily.

C

We don't have pervy over it since it's not designated, but I was able to convince him. That would be a terrible idea, so it won't get painted why he wanted it to look like this building.

C

um So I mean this is something I mean we're talking about and you can see how.

A

The mitchell brothers moved the construction to the south part.

A

Of bloomington I mean we know the um jones building.

A

Is a mitchell the uh melanchamps building is the mitchell.

A

This is a mitchell here and I'm sure I'm not sure, but maybe the one that josh.

A

Has at 1300 uh is probably a mitchell building.

A

But even in the poll uh structure I mean it all kind of has that same.

A

uh Construction and feel to it.

A

So we should move forward to making this a historic district.

A

It is in the 2004 interim report and this area is.

A

Considered the modern study area, the monounsteady area comes.

A

All the way down here at disco and then goes over to lincoln, then down.

A

To romeria and it captures that little section of.

A

The moon on and then the.

A

College there isn't this already designated, though.

C

No okay, I know these homes and everything behind it.

C

They were looking at or not right looks like there's a.

G

Mini district there it is, I think, I think, you're right dad. It is um and.

A

It's it's! It's an interesting neighborhood. um I.

A

Really don't see very many properties coming on the market.

A

In this area, but it's got a lot of longtime homeowners. I mean the house at.

A

114, those are the second owners of the house.

N

Alex they bought it from 59 and they bought it from the mitchell.

A

Family and my understanding that that house was.

A

Built as a gift to one of the daughters for.

A

Their wedding and that house and the one across the.

A

Street are both on two lots so.

A

Well not now, but this is that how scenes I was told that there was a tennis court.

A

One time in its life.

A

This that was a tennis court. I can see it.

A

In the house across the street, where you see that fence.

A

It is also on a double lock this house, that connor's got up now.

C

They really love that kind of brick didn't they.

A

Look at the the you know how they put the design in the rack and.

N

They, like the features they've done with a lot of the other buildings.

A

So, basically, that's not what I'm asking the commission.

A

Is this something we want to move forward with and try to preserve.

A

This area, hey john, have the property owners.

F

The current residents uh have you spoken to any of those.

F

Yet uh is there any interest from the residents to pursue this.

F

I have sam, not sam, uh talked to only the current owners of 114 and.

A

Of course they're going to sell that property, but they.

L

Yeah, sam I have and um it's the house is on the.

L

Several residents that live on the west side um of.

L

Just south of grimes along south walnut, you know all those little bungalows.

L

There are several neighbors there that have already started talking about.

L

That one of them, I know, and whose name I just cannot remember to.

L

Save my life right now, but yeah there's some there's some.

L

Discussion going on.

A

Yeah, I don't think we're gonna get a lot of support from.

L

The property owners who are rentals um out there and there's quite a few.

L

But um you know it's, that's always an obstacle. You have to.

L

Deal with when you try to create something like this.

A

A

All right any further comment, any more comments.

L

I would absolutely support it. Thank you. Darry.

A

Anybody else have an interest.

D

Okay, susan, I support that I think considering.

M

And this isn't a good reason not to do it considering who's buying those.

M

Properties, it's going to be a fight.

G

Who's buying the properties.

F

I think there's I mean college and walnut.

F

Those are development corridors and I think.

F

Along there, it's sketchy, I think, everything back from that has a stronger.

F

Case but all those gorgeous houses that the mitchells did right along. You know the main drag. That's a tough.

F

One yeah sam, have we not seen some.

L

Oddly shaped historic districts, though, before I mean.

L

We're talking about just another hop skip and a jump.

L

A

A

All right, thank you, guys appreciate the comment.

A

uh Let's move on to old business restaurant design, guidelines.

A

Thoughts comments concerns questions, yep comments, concerns questions.

F

Hey connor there's a couple of illustrations.

F

That haven't that didn't make it into the packet. I'm wondering if they're.

F

Around still or if you need new ones,.

C

I don't know I have to look at that again. We you know there are so many going back and forth uh between us over uh a.

C

Long period of time that I may not have gotten all those in there, but that's.

C

Something that I can work with you to make sure that those get in the guidelines before they are finalized sandy all right.

A

Any more comments, questions all right. um Any commissioner comments.

F

We were gonna at one point: have a little breakout group.

F

Were we? Yes? No, um it was on the table. I think it was right.

C

Before covid, we were actually voting on approving these.

C

um And I was going to give you guys until the next meeting. To give me any.

C

Final comments, and then we didn't have that meeting because of covet.

C

And that's where we left it, so we don't need to take action.

M

Now or I mean it's on the agenda, so hopefully we can take action and approve.

C

These um you know we don't have to if you guys.

C

Think that there's some things that need changed or some things that need added or if you want to look at them again I mean there's no immediate.

C

Item on the agenda that in restaurant row. So if you want to just.

C

Wait some more or you can approve it now. You know.

C

That's why it's up for discussion.

F

I I think the only thing that I have concerns about there's some.

F

Diagrams that, I think, would be helpful to update and uh there's a couple.

F

Illustrations we talked about earlier, which you know cut some buildings out, but I don't know that there's a way to.

F

Replicate those given that we we've lost our intern, so uh I'd feel.

F

Slightly more comfortable putting in the new graphics and then.

F

Voting on, what's in there, as opposed to saying oh.

F

Yeah we'll fix it later. Well then, let's wait till our next.

A

Meeting and we'll put on our agenda for approval, let me always.

A

Have a chance to review him again I'll get back with you! Connor on the.

F

Diagrams in question: okay, thank you all right and uh I'd like.

C

uh To give the florida to philip really quickly if you're still here, I am.

B

um I just wanted to mention that um we have a new lawyer.

B

In the legal department, I think he joined in april.

B

It was a really inauspicious time to join. We were.

B

I think we started working at home the week before he showed up.

B

Anyway, his name is daniel dixon. You may have seen his name here on the list. He.

B

Showed up to tonight he handles parks in hand and.

B

Hand is technically where uh the hpc resides.

B

The historic preservation function, and so um I will be transitioning.

B

um The legal staffing to daniel- oh thanks, sam I'll, still see all of you and.

B

I will be the backup he will just be the primary, um but he's a very good lawyer, and um he so I think he will be here for.

B

A couple of meetings, we're overlapping and I'm starting to hand over materials and things to him. So.

B

um I just wanted to introduce him, I don't know, are you.

B

On camera daniel, so they can see what you look like. Yes, I'm here.

B

Oh there you are so that's your introduction to them and.

B

When we're back in person, you'll see more of them, so thanks it's nice to meet all of you and.

H

Hopefully I look forward to working with you all and hopefully meeting you in.

H

Person sooner rather than later, excellent.

A

Welcome. Thank you. Okay,.

A

That's our final announcements and they're ready for adjournment.

A

Can I ask you a question john? Oh, absolutely, jim.

G

Philippa, uh as uh what's the um timeline on replacing eric as the.

G

Associate director of hand uh well that position was posted.

B

And I don't know where it is in the process, but as you might imagine,.

B

Doris would certainly like a deputy, so she.

B

I'm sure is um all over that I don't know if conor knows, but my guess.

B

Is there's somewhere in the process of uh reviewing resumes? I I think.

B

The posting has probably closed, but I don't know for sure I can find out and.

B

And let you all know tell you we're uh we're actually.

C

Interviewing the the two finalists tomorrow.

B

Oh good: well, there you go excellent great. Thank you. Philippa.

A

Well, I, like your fireplace, oh, I had one other quick question.

F

Which might be a phillipa question too, um on that uh uh retroactive.

F

uh Approval denial, which we denied uh the options were abatement or fines or.

F

Both does the hbc get to, or should it.

F

Recommend a solution or does legal just run with it, normally staff runs.

B

With it, but you can certainly register if you have a.

B

Preference of how to handle that gotcha. Thank you. Thanks thanks sam.

A

For clarifying that uh any more comments, um yeah real quick as sam just brought.

J

This up, you know, I think that was my my concern.

J

In a way we haven't had something like that happen in a while.

J

And- and I you know, I know that for me the answer.

J

Was going to be that what we built back is not going to.

J

Be historic so then, are we just looking at punishment and to me, then that meant that.

J

I I was willing to let the permit go, but I you know: how do we look at one.

J

And say, but there should be some fines for what happened.

A

Does that make sense hear that, but I I also heard from the.

F

Neighborhood that this is they're going to have to look at this.

F

For the foreseeable future, yeah.

L

Yeah sure sure hey it as an architect, I mean it's one of these.

J

You know you can tell that architects aren't required for.

J

One and two family homes, and so sometimes you you end up with this even.

J

On new projects, but but my my point there is, is that it it's.

J

You know he, I guess I guess if he builds back.

J

But for us as a historic commission, he's not building back something historic, so.

J

All we're doing is is punishing him. I understand.

J

The neighbors have to look at something, but but is that out of.

J

Our I it to me it's some we're splitting some hairs there.

J

Is it I wondered more about you know, how do you split.

J

Having to build it back versus a fine and twenty five hundred dollars doesn't.

J

Seem like near enough doug, I have a question that pals on to.

L

Your question, which is since it is in the historic district and.

L

If they we tell them, hey, you gotta, take that down and build something back.

L

Won't we get to look at it before they build it back.

C

Well, I think the object would be to restore it to what it was.

C

Before not necessarily build something back, restore it to where it was before.

C

And then get a coi permit for any kind of addition that they're looking for.

C

Since, obviously, they wanted more space and more rooms, but um but we.

J

Oh I'm sorry, oh, I just wanted to say one thing which is.

B

That, uh from a legal perspective, if this were to move forward and.

B

We required them to abate, I mean they, they ended up getting a czc.

B

Which is the permit from planning? You know, I guess it was retroactive, so.

B

That puts us in a bit of a bad spot, one department approved, and the other is now.

B

Trying to get them to undo it, I'm just telling you that would be a.

B

Difficult legal position for us to navigate: that's you you've answered exactly what it seemed like that because of the.

J

The communication issues that were there and what was granted and what wasn't.

J

It you know, were I I don't know how I don't. I don't think in the end, we're.

J

Going to end up with what everybody thinks we are and, and I'm certainly sure there aren't detailed drawings of what was there. It's.

J

Going to be well, it looked like in this picture. That window is this, but in fact maybe it wasn't so I think it's a tough one all the way around. It really is.

J

And that's why my vote was the way my vote was, but.

A

A

um How about how far back would the fight go.

A

Go back, would it go back to when um they got the approval, we discovered they.

A

Issue, or is it does the fire was up to 2 500.

A

Per day, how many days would it go back.

B

Right so uh it would be something like, and we have not really looked at this.

B

To to calculate any number, if we were going to do this, but.

B

uh Probably from the date of the violation.

B

When they started doing the work, without the permit.

B

To whenever they applied for a coa, for example,.

A

Okay, well or actually I mean it's complicated by the.

B

By the planning permit to maybe when they got the okay from the planning.

B

Department yeah, if the property is already transferred to new order, does.

M

That make a difference.

B

Say that again you mean so he's he was selling that to.

M

To one of his clients, I'm not sure it's closed yet.

M

But that's why I did an appraisal on it. So now.

M

There could be a new owner.

A

Or not or not, I was gonna. Look right now see.

G

If I can make a comment, we've talked about this for three years at least.

G

Because when these come up, it's always miscommunication, the planning puts it through and and we hear about too late or real.

G

Estate agents don't tell the seller or the buyer uh that it's a historic or conservation district.

G

So can we are, we allowed at some point to make our own motions to or pass it.

G

Through common council that annually uh the first of june, the.

G

First of january, we send out a notice to the planning to all the real estate agents and to whoever whomever we want, or we post it in the newspaper.

G

That the process uh that, if you're in a historic district or a conservation.

G

District, these are what they are they're listed. Here's the website and you got to take that into account.

G

And just do an annual education, not meeting people. We've talked about.

G

Seminars but simplify it, but some way that.

G

Annually we are actually giving notice out to folks uh in both the planning or.

G

Any other uh committee on in the city council, that's in the in the city, that's important and relevant, and all the real estate people and appraisers.

A

You know, I agree with you and you can preach all you want to, but it's not.

A

Going to make people follow through with their duties, I mean.

G

I'm a realtor repetition does help to some extent.

A

And I got to find out if it's historic or not, I mean.

A

And it's not hard to do you just type the number into.

A

My bloomington and it'll tell you this district, that's what you call me.

A

Where you call connor- and certainly um mr brawley has been around in the.

A

Real estate business for a number of years.

G

Close the planning department and they've this happened over and over.

G

In my few years on the k on the commission.

L

Yeah, I think we have to do some sort of due diligence on our own.

L

As well as requiring people and brokers and real realtors to do.

L

Because sam's right, he should have done due diligence.

L

On his own as well, um so I think you know we should do it on.

L

Our end as well, because if we don't, we might get in a.

L

Situation down the road where people can feign ignorance, if they want.

L

To I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it's very possible that that could happen down the road.

Q

So yeah nip it in the bud on in both both directions. One possibility, although.

F

We're our reputation with the monroe county.

F

Building department isn't great is to request them to have just check box.

F

On their permit application is this property.

F

If, within the bloomington city limits within an historic district, or is it a.

F

Contributing historic building, um just so they've got to check yes or.

F

No on there so there's at least pause.

L

That's brilliant sam because it's the easiest, simplest solution.

B

I do want to say one thing: I don't. I don't know that it's really possible to.

B

Place blame here. um It wasn't really entirely the.

B

Planning department, it was a whole series of things normally.

B

Both uh conor's office and planning check.

B

And you know I don't I don't know what happened exactly but.

B

I just want to be sure that it's sometimes.

B

I know it sounds um it's not a satisfactory answer, but a lot has been.

B

Going on this past spring very strange things and people were working.

B

Remotely- and I don't know where the miscommunication happened.

B

uh And it also involved, obviously mr brawley.

B

And or his contractor, so um you know we we can look at at more.

B

Educational things you can, you can look at more educational things and.

B

Notice and things we can, we can look at that. I don't know what the cost will be.

B

But we're open to that.

F

Yeah, I I hear what you're saying I also the other thing that I want to say.

F

Is that the hpc there was a miscommunication.

F

Between planning and uh and the building department, um but the.

F

Duty of this commission, I think, is not necessarily to fix that is to.

F

Address is this historically appropriate and then all.

F

We're saying is no really it's not, but what are the consequences? That's not necessarily up to us. I.

F

I, because of the complication of how it got there.

F

And the mitigating circumstances, uh you know.

F

We can say: oh that's better or that's worse, but.

F

You know we're not the untanglers on this one. I don't think.

F

And you know we do have a some skin in the game, but it's not like.

F

We're we we get to say this is what they have to do.

L

Yeah and I don't like the idea of being the issuers of punishment either.

L

I mean, I feel sorry for the guy in some ways as well, so.

C

All right, so so, um since it was denied what I'm hearing is um the the.

C

Commissioners would would rather, at this stage a fine.

C

Than any kind of abatement, um or would they rather nothing at all.

F

That's not necessarily what I'm thinking.

F

I mean, I feel really badly for the neighborhood.

F

So I would love to see some abatement, but.

F

It's never going to go back to a contributing building.

G

I mean what there's is there a moderate abatement where it doesn't go back to.

G

The exact looking building that it is now so and it won't be historic.

G

But um leaving a two-story but forcing them to change the windows, for example,.

G

Make that big wall facing the road have another have a.

G

Three panel window bay window, that comes from the house, the.

G

Concept of a front window and a front door, they got a door, but it's just.

G

A door and a flat wall that looks like a front door or the.

G

Style of windows that connor was referring to that they're more.

G

The threes or the sixes or whatever were in the old building, so a few.

G

Features on that flat uh wall that would be an abatement.

G

Back to some features of a house, instead of just a flat old, big old.

G

Rental building I mean I think um legal is gonna, have to consult on on.

B

What we think we could do, wouldn't it be even the best of best.

L

Worlds if he had to abate in a way that was.

L

Approved and accepted by the members of the historic district, because really.

L

That's what it really comes down to, what can they live with in the end, but I.

L

Know that's even deeper in the weeds, but really.

L

That's the heart of the matter, yeah, I think derek. You know I just want.

C

To wrap it up back around to what philip has said earlier,.

C

Because planting already released the czc.

C

You know our hands are kind of tied about.

C

You know forcing an abatement type action um so.

C

uh What I'm hearing I I think at this stage the best course forward would be.

C

You know a warning or a fine, but I think.

C

Abatement, like philippa said, might be a little difficult to justify in a legal setting.

G

Simply a warning is terrible uh precedent for other builders, you're.

G

Going to do just the same by purpose, instead of by mistake.

G

I agree and we've seen that when the house got torn down over here on.

A

That west 7th street.

A

That were demolition delaying they ended up tearing that house down that.

A

We wanted to say, I think we need some kind of punishment, but I don't.

M

Think abamen is appropriate. I personally like deb's idea, but I don't.

A

Know if we could do anything like that, where.

A

The neighborhood the neighborhood group could get together and.

A

Make suggestions and a way to make that building look.

A

More appealing than what it is, but again, our hands are probably tired.

A

And it's probably something not an option for us.

A

Okay, all right any more.

A

A

Okay, did we adjourn slam down that gravel, okay,.

J

Good night thanks, everyone hi everybody.

A

N

N