City of Bloomington, Indiana Historic Preservation Commission, 23 Jul 2020

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From YouTube: Bloomington Historic Preservation Commission, July 23, 2020

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meeting packet: https://bloomington.in.gov/onboard/meetingFiles/download?meetingFile_id=7346

A

A

A

uh Good evening, fellow commissioners, I want to thank you for coming this.

B

Evening and I'd like to call to order the.

B

Bloomington historic preservation, commission teleconference meeting for july 23rd, 2020.

B

All right, okay, doug bruce.

C

Sam desaler present susan dyer here jeff goldin.

C

Deb hutton.

C

Yep I see deb lee sandweis.

C

John saunders here chris sterbaum here duncan campbell.

C

Ernesto castaneda here derek richie, jenny, southern.

A

B

All right, uh we need approval of the minutes from our last meeting.

B

D

Did I get a second time just haul? A second.

C

Okay, who made the motion? Damn cotton? Okay,.

C

Thank you all right, sam desaler, yes,.

C

Susan dyer epstein jeff golden yes.

C

Deb hutton: yes, john saunders. uh Yes,.

C

Chris durbaum, yes, motion carries uh five.

C

B

All right, thank you. Let's move on to coas and we'll do the staff review.

B

Which is coa-2024 122, west 6th street, so.

E

This project was actually talked about. The previous hpc meeting.

E

And uh I told everybody I asked the I had to get in contact with the builder.

E

And the property owner I did and I found out the scope of work that was happening.

E

To this building we were kind of unsure, but essentially all they're doing is.

E

Replacing the storefront windows with new tempered insulated glass.

E

Just to fit the old dimensions, nothing's changing there, they removed a layer of.

E

Fascia fascia board actually two layers, one the most outermost layer.

E

Was plywood, then there was a layer of like fiber cement board beneath that they got rid of both those layers and they.

E

Put a brand new layer of plywood painted black, so.

E

uh I was able to staff, approve that the sign is gonna, be at the next.

E

Meeting we'll have to approve the sign, that's coming next, but I just wanted to.

E

Show you that so great thank you. Connor.

B

All right so we're gonna move on to commission review. I have a quick.

D

Question about the last one: yes, sir connor did you actually.

D

Determine that the material used was fiber cement because it looked like it.

D

Was an inch thick and uh looked like it looked like some kind.

D

Of stand sandstone for limestone yeah, I.

E

I didn't determine I took the contractor at his word.

E

um I looked into you know: fiber cement board has been used for a.

E

While or at least product similar to that right,.

E

I wasn't sure exactly what the product is but or was.

E

um But essentially, at that stage sam, when it was brought to our attention.

E

They already chunked off a lot of it, so.

E

It was kind of uh I don't know, move point. I guess.

E

At that degree, unless we wanted to uh you know, do some kind of.

E

uh Retroactive finding or something like to that nature, but I didn't really feel.

E

That the layer of of fascia board, which was.

E

Beneath the exterior layer was really worth you know getting in a big fight.

E

About so I decided to staff approve it. I hear that I would like them to give.

D

Them a warning that we want them to submit drawings.

D

For uh what they're planning on putting back for the signage and any of the.

D

F

Okay, good thanks sam question: is there a master uh volume.

G

Control, it's a lit. I don't know if it's dim for everybody, but it's a little dim for me. Anybody else. Do you have any trouble.

E

Hearing us, I can hear it, it's just very kind of.

G

Soft, it is a little bit low. Okay, um I don't know how to adjust.

E

That we just have the microphone on the computer.

D

I think you're fine, I think maybe the people who can't hear crank up your.

D

Volume max it I have, but that's okay,.

B

Okay, all right coa, 20-23, 24-31, north barber drive.

B

Matlock hikes this rank district petitioner is sam.

B

All right connor give us that presentation.

E

uh So this is a contributing uh ranch style structure in the matlock heights.

E

Historic district: uh the request is to remove a.

E

Non-Original rear deck and roof and replaced with the new wood deck and a butterfly style roof.

E

In addition to that, the request is to build an artist quarters which consists.

E

Of an adu and a studio, that's combined into one.

E

Detached building that'll be in the backyard the studio.

E

Portion I'll show you here here is the.

E

Current wood porch that will be removed. This is a rendering of the.

E

E

Both the studio and the harvest quarters will feature.

E

Fiber cement panel siding vinyl insulated windows.

E

One of them will have a one will be a flat rubber membrane, roof.

E

Flat and the other will have a slope to it,.

E

I'll, let sam go into all the details. Let's want to continue on with this.

E

So if you look at the district's design guidelines, the standards for.

E

Size and lock placement.

E

Say that the structure needs to be subordinate to the primary structure and.

E

Height and size and located to the rear of the primary.

E

Building so this checks off those uh the.

E

Fenestration pattern on the adu follows other ranch style patterns.

E

In the neighborhood you can see here with kind of thin clear story like.

E

Windows and this, uh this kind of looks like a.

E

Picture window, but it's going to be an operable like garage type door.

E

So it is uh compatible with the neighborhood.

E

Fenestration um now the pattern formed by the cement panel.

E

Siding on the 80, you can see here, uh it's really unfamiliar in the district.

E

Where predominantly natural materials such as limestone, brick and wood are.

E

Used for the exterior siding, however, the guidelines do state that the.

E

Material should be compatible but not required to match the primary.

E

Structure also the flat and shed style ropes on.

E

The 80 are both recommended roof shapes in the guidelines. uh The proposed.

E

Butterfly porch roof does not follow any of the noted examples in the design.

E

Guidelines for ranch style homes, uh however, this is one of the.

E

Recommended shapes roof shapes that you see in the guidelines.

E

uh So it's not completely outside the realm of compatibility. There.

E

uh The design and choice of materials for both the porch and the adu.

E

Are distinct from the architectural fabric of the neighborhood, it's pretty.

E

Obvious, however, uh I would say it's important to.

E

Be mindful that the design and style of the homes in matlock heights really were a departure from the tradition at the time.

E

They were built, and in this way this proposed project.

E

Kind of keeps some of that same uh forward-looking spirit. It's been on.

E

Experimental use of form and that really differentiates matlock.

E

Heights from other uh historic districts in bloomington.

E

um I also want to note the neighborhood design review committee uh unanimously.

E

Supported the project, so the staff recommendation for this would be.

E

Approval due to the project meeting guidelines, standards for size.

E

Lot placement fenestration and roof shape, as well as having.

E

Neighborhood support great okay. Sam, would you like to add please.

D

I think the main things I'd like to add uh were that we.

D

Tried to I mean the the roof slope of the the.

D

Shed roof portion and also the roof slope of the.

D

Porch portion are identical to what is on the existing house they're all three.

D

And twelves, and uh what we're trying to do on the.

D

Porch that abuts the existing house there's a rather unfortunate porch that.

D

Was put on originally, I don't know if you've got a photograph.

D

Of that connor yeah there you go on the lower.

D

Right uh where the raptors were just sort of slapped up on top of the.

D

The existing roof we're going to we're proposing to take.

D

All of that out and retain there's a you can't quite see it in that.

D

uh Photograph but there's a about a two foot: high original limestone.

D

Wall that surrounds it, we're going to leave that all in.

D

And put in basically a platform that matches the interior elevation of the.

D

House and then the butterfly is matching the.

D

Existing slope and materials of the.

D

Interior or not the interior, the existing.

D

Roof just sort of mirroring that the studio.

D

And we're sort of combining a studio and accessory dwelling unit in one building.

D

In the backyard and there's a flat roof on the studio.

D

Which is the big sort of cubic portion on the left there, and then the artist building is on the right.

D

Which uh matches the roof slope of the existing house.

D

um So we're trying to what we'd really like to do if we can do it, is.

D

uh With fiber cement, if we can get unpainted panels eventually they you.

D

Know they look like limestone they're the.

D

Closest thing we've been able to find that matches the limestone.

D

um And so we're trying to get as close as we can to the existing materials.

D

Without you know going too crazy because we're on a budget here.

D

um But you know it's it's. It's a building, that's totally separate from.

D

And fronts: the the street. If you look at the picture on the.

D

Go back, go back, go back um one more! There you go. If you look, if you look at.

D

The picture on the right- um it's pretty well screened.

D

Behind existing trees and we're going to leave all that in place, but it's it's kind of a backyard.

D

Building, it's like a sort of a glorified backyard shed.

D

But it's a really fun project to work on and the clients are.

D

Lovely people- and I think they're here and if they have any additional comments.

D

um I'm I'm pleased to answer any questions and hear what they also have.

D

To say, terrific thanks sam, so uh chris have you.

B

Got some questions? No, no questions. Okay, jeff.

H

No questions, susan nope, no questions. Oh sorry, sam.

B

Ernesto no questions. Thank you. Jenny.

I

No, I guess not uh well, um I have comments later.

I

Okay, do we have a question yeah deb? I have a question.

J

uh Sam on the uh on the west side of the studio.

J

I'm looking at.

J

Yeah, what is that? On the west side of stoughton square studio,.

J

Wall um facing south no facing.

J

Facing the other house down the road down, glendora.

J

What is that in the upper level known next picture yeah on that picture? Thank.

J

You very much so on the far left. What is that thing.

J

There so the roof is it's a parapet, roof.

D

Which means there's a little wall that hides most of the roof, like you have in.

D

The buildings on the downtown square, but it's got a low slope to it. About of.

D

An inch half inch per foot so there's a slot.

D

That goes along that entire top of the wall, to let the water out and then.

D

There's a gutter and a downspout that catches the water.

J

Oh, I see on the roadside okay yep, so you just have one slot in the whole.

J

Square of the uh all four walls, but one slot with a.

J

Downslope yeah we're trying to keep it clean and.

D

That's that's the current plan. If the engineer um is friendly, that's what will happen great.

J

Thank you. Oh I have another question. uh The adu is an adu in this city is.

J

Considered just to live the living quarters is that right, that's.

J

My understanding so because you're attaching the studio to it and making it what 900 plus square feet instead of 400 plus square feet,.

J

That doesn't uh because they're attached have a common wall.

J

That doesn't um change things in terms of the city's.

J

Requirements for an adu or or you know next week.

E

uh Keegan is with us he's a in the playing department keegan.

E

F

Sure um so it looked like um didn't it say that the.

F

Maximum size or that the size was about 650 square feet,.

F

Or yeah was that yeah well but yeah. I guess to answer your question yeah. We.

F

Would only consider the part that is living space to be the adu.

F

Yeah, thank you.

B

Any more questions: tim, okay, let's move on to comments chris.

G

I think it'll be fine in this neighborhood.

B

Okay, jeff uh yeah. I agree. I think uh I like the.

H

Design, I think um uh sam's done a good job of.

H

uh Putting it the right place on the side. Interestingly enough, I just.

H

Appraised this house within the last week and that porch is very unfortunate.

H

So I think that'll be a huge improvement, so I'm in favor of this whole project.

B

Great uh deb, do you have any comments? um Yeah, I think sammy did a great job of.

J

uh Taking the prop with the way the property is laid out and then adjusting to the matlock heights uh norms of construction um from a the point of view of a neighbor.

J

Who lives near the the strip of windows above the adu door, which face.

J

Onto the backyard, so we won't see it very much is great looking and it fits right into the neighborhood and on the back side or.

J

The glendora side, all you have, is two little bitty windows.

J

I think, on the back side of the um of only the studio, and I would love to.

J

See more see just those two little holes and then the two little windows upper left of the adu. So.

J

I like that stream of windows and would love to see one of those streams.

J

On one one or the other just because so that's part of what the public will see.

J

And it is totally representative of many of the window sets in the building. So.

J

That's just a personal comment that I would love to see us one of those strips.

J

On one part or the other of the two buildings, but that's just a pure comment: I love what you've done.

J

So great job, thank you. We had that on the more.

D

Expensive version.

B

Susan, I like it, I think it's a fun design.

K

I don't have any other comments: uh sam no just kidding.

D

No, it's great to prove it. I'd. Add the public realm.

G

I like the idea of squeezing a couple more windows in if the budget allows.

B

Cool, thank you chris ernesto uh yeah. Just uh it looks great, looks.

L

Great sam, okay and jimmy.

I

um I was wondering if there's a possibility, um if you don't.

I

Squeeze in more windows, can you uh move it turn it so that you can actually.

I

See that great frontage from glendora instead of a.

I

Blank wall see which, from glendora.

I

Yeah not not totally for turn the thing around, but just turn it like 90.

I

Or yeah 90 degrees so that the front of the.

I

Studio and stuff faces the back of the house.

I

Yeah, it's a part of part part of the place in the.

D

Building or at least a big part of the placement of the building, if you you see.

D

The the site falls from uh the.

D

Sort of east is the high and the west is the low.

D

And because uh the owner would like a fairly high ceiling because he does.

D

Large pieces he's a photographer uh so making the the large. You know the.

D

Higher portion of the studio as far away from the house as possible.

D

Downhill, that was, that was a piece of it.

D

Turning at 90 degrees, you could do that, but I think the other thing that I was.

D

Looking at is is a more sort of urban.

D

Thing of holding the street wall, and so if you turned it 90 degrees, so it was.

D

Facing the house, um it's it's less of holding the wall.

D

And more of a plop sculpture, as you will um so.

D

You know that's that's kind of why it happened that way. I think the other.

D

Thing that we're thinking about is uh drainage, and if you do turn it 90.

D

Degrees you're, basically forming a dam at the bottom of the yard, where all the water will go in and basically sort of go right in the front door of the studio. And so we're trying.

D

To avoid that as well.

I

um Then could you reverse, maybe the shed roof.

I

So that you have more breakup on the side on this.

I

On the side, that's to the road.

D

You you could do that, um but the shed roof is.

D

Placed that way because of solar gain uh and a lot of artist studios, you want the.

D

North light as much as you can get so, if you reverse the shed roof you're.

D

Talking about a lot of solar gain and uh you're losing the north light, so.

D

Again, it's you know, it's sort of you know. I thought.

I

That part was the living quarters.

D

So I I don't understand your question. You have.

J

Daddy, am I interpreting really that you you're suggesting just the adu.

J

Part be turned 90 degrees, not the whole structure.

J

Well, you can just just the the slant of the roof instead of having your two high.

I

Walls to the street have your block size and then have your.

I

Your slant so that you have it broken up a little bit, so the low side of the a.

I

The adu has a low side towards the street.

I

And then you have the high side, you can put your doors and stuff in there.

I

But put it on the other side towards the the yard.

I

um I I I think that my earlier comments still hold true.

D

In that, if you put the high side toward the yard that gives you.

D

More solar exposure and we're trying to avoid that and trying to be as.

D

As energy conscious and light consciousness, okay.

I

So you're so that that's facing south yeah, okay, I'm a little since those curvy.

I

Streets there it's a little hard for me to go exactly who's east west north south. On there.

I

Okay, I just thought the big trees would have uh kept it from doing that. You've.

I

Got a huge line of trees between the adu and the street.

I

So I would have thought that would shade the roof.

D

That's true, but they're all to the north, so it's not going to help you.

I

um I see okay thanks. That was my my comments.

B

Okay, my comment is I like what you've done.

B

Sam, I think I placed the building on the property, is perfect.

B

Especially for an artist as you're indicating about getting that actual.

B

Light in there doing the things that you wanted to.

B

Accomplish so, I think you've done an awesome job. Thank you so.

B

We need a motion to approve move to approve.

H

uh Subway 20-23 happy I just want to. I just want to let john know I am here.

M

John, this is derek.

B

I have no comment, though I just want to let you know I'm here. Thank you.

B

Thank you. Okay, do we have a second second.

B

B

Eddie you wanna do roll call. You wanna kick me out. No.

E

There was no discussion, it was just a motion to approve so.

C

Okay, are you ready, yeah, okay, sam desaler, abstain,.

C

Susan dyer, yes, jeff golden yes, deb hutton.

J

Yes, john saunders. Yes, chris sterbaum, yes, with a wish for a.

G

Couple windows motion carries five zero one great thank.

B

You thank you all right. Let's move on to uh coa.

B

20-25: twenty nine south woodlawn early petitioner yeah the petitioners.

B

Are with us great so this is located in the ellen heights.

E

Historic district uh we're talking about this garage.

E

Structure to the rear of this house, this was actually staff approved for cua.

E

2019 back in may that staff approval had to.

E

Do with really just rehabilitation the structure for the most part in the replacement of, I think two or three windows.

E

um However, the proper owner has approached me and is.

E

Now asking to remove the barn door on the north.

E

Elevation of the structure and frame a new wall that will be cloud with siding.

E

Matching the rest of the structure so essentially just frame over this and.

E

Make it look like a wall um reading the elm heights.

E

Design guidelines the goal is to retain and restore original garages and service.

E

Buildings, along with their inherent material and.

E

Features through cleaning repair and routine maintenance.

E

Staff comments are that the guidelines don't really offer.

E

A whole lot of suggestions on alterations to these garages.

E

And service buildings, while staff agrees with the petitioner that the doors.

E

Themselves may not be original to this garage. The opening certainly.

E

Is and the uh removal of these large doors and essentially deciding over them.

E

uh Will forfeit the structure's appearance as a garage.

E

And uh detached garages along alleys are a feature of the district.

E

Are mentioned in the guidelines, so staff would report.

E

Would support replacement of these doors if they're, not original and in poor.

E

Condition, however, staff does not support removal.

E

Of the opening itself and signing over that so staff.

E

Recommend denial of coa 2025. Thank you. Connor, okay, is the petition.

B

G

Where's the other door to this garage. That's it.

E

uh No, it's right here, oh people door, so it's turning it into a shed.

G

Right right, correct right: what if they made it solid but made the.

G

But framed it to ghost an old door.

G

The wall in left the frame made a frame on that plywood that ghosts.

G

A door so it reads as a door like who cares if it opens, if you read it.

B

Chris they're doing questions.

G

I didn't hear the question you were asking the question.

G

Yeah, what if we did that that's my question: could we do that.

G

Instead and what maybe, what would staff think of that.

G

Option to everybody gets something that way.

G

E

And I think that would be would be fine as long as you're kind of yeah ghosting.

E

Some kind of image of a door, so it can still kind of read as a garage.

N

My understanding is that when originally the parking.

N

Was not in the garage it was underneath the house.

N

And that this door was not original um because there's a.

N

Utility there's no way to even get in the door with a car.

N

Because of where the utility poles are placed.

N

M

Okay, you're losing control of this. Would you be impressed? Yes,.

B

B

So currently, your question chris, is, is to retain the.

B

Entrance but make a false door in front of it, so they can use it.

B

As they need to no, no, no, he was saying outline where the door.

N

Was with some type of trim or.

N

Some type of um trim or siding- that's reminiscent that.

N

There was a door there, but not necessarily a functioning door.

N

Is that correct, chris, that's what I thought your your.

G

Suggestion is there never was a door there.

N

Correct there was parking through the side alley and underneath the house.

G

But might they have wanted to get equipment in and out, and that was a.

G

Purpose of that door, for the shed I mean it should be.

G

Able to see if it was remodeled or not from the framing on the inside.

G

That looks pretty old trim. It's pretty authentic yeah.

N

It's a piece of plywood, I mean the trim is.

G

Plywood, but I think the trim is, unlike any of the other trim around.

N

The the structure in what way danielle I wish my husband was here.

N

Because I have no idea in what way um I have to ask him again and have him.

N

Tell you because he's not he's teaching class right now and not able to be here, but that's what he told me to say so.

B

Okay, so if we have it right, if I have this right, the door was not originally.

B

That it got added through timing for people to use it. An original parking was.

B

I mean that's what the position is saying.

H

If you look at the bottom of the door and the close-up in that picture,.

H

It looks like that, there's some kind of foundation or something that would.

H

Preclude that being used for auto entry, um but I I take chris's point.

H

Around that, maybe it was used as a shed.

B

Okay, I believe it was used as a shed and and the doors were.

N

Put there after the fact, like you said, to get out.

N

Lawn equipment and and larger items.

B

Any more questions chris, I just can't imagine.

G

Building a shed that only has a people door on it.

G

But it's hard to say and since I haven't looked inside I can't.

G

Assert that that door existed or didn't exist. It looks.

G

Appropriate on that end,.

G

But that's that's all. I got all right chris. Thank you.

I

uh I'd like to comment on the trim and that, if you look at the window.

I

Above the door, you can see how it's done and it has an overhanging lip above it.

I

And the house does too, and that door is lacking any of the.

I

Really, nice trim that the windows and doors on the house and the garage house, except for these doors,.

I

Thank you, jimmy jeff. Do you have any questions.

H

I don't have any questions. Okay, dan, do you have any questions.

B

B

Dan, I do not thank you. Thank you, susan nope. I don't have any.

K

Either all right, sam, no questions.

D

Ernesto no questions. Thank you.

B

B

M

No okay, I don't have any questions well, I have.

B

Some comments so we'll just save it for them.

B

um Chris, let's go to comments.

B

G

Seems kind of a toss-up, it could be easily done and might be even easier to.

G

Do to fill it in as a kind of as mock doors. You would just.

G

Set the plywood new plywood back farther enough to put.

G

One by detail on top of the door, and you could do that.

G

It isn't that important if and I don't know that it was original, it's pretty.

G

Far from the road, but I think that's a sensible.

G

Compromise staff could approve the way the doors look. Okay,.

B

Jeff comments: I agree that I think it might be just as easy.

H

Or easier to mock a door um there'll be less replacement of the.

H

Lap siding and it will retain kind of the feeling.

H

Of the typical building in the back of a.

H

You know house in this area that would have some kind of you know.

H

Doors, these doors obviously aren't original.

H

But I think you're going to lose some of the appeal of the building.

H

With just a plain lap sided wall, thank you. Jeff,.

B

B

Go sorry I'd agree with that. um If the.

K

Petitioner was okay with it, and if conor is okay with it,.

B

Okay thanks susan um yeah, I take what jenny said her.

J

Observations about the framing of windows was uh matching the house. So if you framed in the the.

J

The door as a fake door um and had some extra money or time or.

J

Interest you could put at least a um a top. I have no idea the correct.

J

Terminology architecturally, but a top lip piece of wood that would.

J

Shadow, uh the window above and the windows on the um on the main house. Very simple, not not all the siding or.

J

Anything just the the sideways uh framing, but just the top.

J

Framing was the cap.

B

Yeah sam, I would echo jenny's comments and that I don't believe the uh door is.

D

Original the trim is a one by four around and the.

D

Trim around the windows is one by six with a you know, the.

D

The head has the drip edge at the top, um so I would support the petitioner.

D

Just ripping the entire opening out and putting lap siding of the whole thing.

D

And if they, if they so desired, to add additional.

D

Fenestration, because I do have some sympathy with.

D

Other commissioners comments that you know once you sort of pull it out the.

D

Elevation has less interest, but, given that it's not an original.

D

Opening, I think, uh unless you're paving the whole thing over basically.

D

You have some latitude as to what you do there.

B

Thanks, sam ernesto, yes, I agree with some of the comments.

L

Here I think this is not obviously an original part.

L

Of the building, uh I'm I'm with the petitioner, I think.

L

uh They could just fill that in it was.

L

Never part of the original structure, that's my thing. Okay,.

B

Jerry I'd support what both sam and ernesto just said,.

M

It it doesn't look like it's part of the original, so we we really don't know.

M

You know we don't know what to to tell this person not to do because.

M

We don't know what was there in the first place, so anyhow, that's it. I would agree with my fellow commissioners.

B

So um we need to make a measure.

D

I would make a motion to approve coa.

D

B

Okay, so uh we need a different kind of emotion now.

H

Chris, I'm gonna. Second, the original motion.

B

Okay, thank you. Jeff.

B

Go ahead. Okay, thank you.

C

Okay, sam desolar, yes, susan dyer, yes,.

C

Jeff golden yes deb hutton, yes, john saunders,.

B

Yes, chris durbaum, yes, motion carries 6-0-0.

B

Thank you. Thank you for coming this evening.

B

All right here we go all right. So, let's move on to.

B

um This is a resubmission and this would be coa.

B

20-21 309 south davidson street, so this petition was denied by the hpc.

E

At the may 28th meeting the petitioner has requested to.

E

Another review uh because her builder steve redick was not able to participate.

E

In the may 28th meeting he is here tonight and they believe they.

E

Discovered some additional evidence, information about the foundation, um so the request is to demolish this.

E

Primary structure on the lot um to the you see.

E

Page 12 of the prospect greater prospect hill design guidelines. I hope everybody.

E

Was able to read that as well as um part of.

E

Title eight um really sections uh two and three of.

E

uh 8.12 of title 8, which talks about the demolition criteria that.

E

The commission should take into consideration when a demolition is proposed, um so staff comments during a recent.

E

Walk-Through staff found that the physical evidence supports uh the petitioners claims about the.

E

The condition of the foundation and floor structure.

E

uh The architecture, uh our architectural style ability really.

E

Is not unique or of a rare occurrence in bloomington.

E

um Staff finds that the commission should take into consideration uh the.

E

State of deterioration, disrepair and structural stability.

E

As well as the balance of the public interest in preserving the structure, the.

E

Integrity of the district with the interest of the owner of the.

E

Building or structure and utilization of that property, I think.

E

That's an important point. I should be considering weighted heavily in the commission's decision tonight. I also want to point out that the.

E

Greater prospect hill design review committee unanimously supported this.

E

Project and several of the neighbors have come.

E

Forth and supported the project as well. This is uh written by a neighbor jessica.

E

Mont, if you want to quickly read that.

B

Sure I'm um to turn it over to uh aviva and steve. uh They have a short.

E

Presentation that they're going to make um so.

E

Connor can I share the screen absolutely yeah.

E

Let me get that going for you, aviva.

O

uh While I'm waiting for that, I want to thank everybody for your patience and your willingness to entertain this. A second time.

E

You guys should be able to share now. I can.

O

Okay, so I'm going tell me if you'll have to confirm what.

O

You see powerpoint, that's, oh, you do see the.

O

Powerpoint, do you see a picture of it says white chalk applied to visible cracks? Yes,.

O

Okay, um let me see, if steve can you can you hear me yeah, I'm here, aviva can.

O

You hear me: yes, I can't see you, but that's fine. If you move over a little bit, you'll be in the picture, it says: steve is operating from my home and I'm operating from my office.

P

I'm looking at a different yeah, okay, now you're good you're good.

O

um Okay, steve, I'm you I'm gonna, just let you tell me when to advance the slides.

P

Okay, well, what I did was for the for the purpose so that everybody could.

P

Maybe see what we've we've called out on the foundation is that.

P

The cracks I went with white went through with white chalk and I just.

P

uh Highlighted all the cracks, so anybody can see them.

P

I think the chalk is still out there, but the cracking on the foundation is.

P

Is evident uh from the outside and if you get down at eye level,.

P

You'll see that there's been constant movement of that entire.

P

Foundation structure, so the fact that it doesn't go any deeper than 16 inches.

P

Down into the ground, uh just subjected it to.

P

Frost heaving whenever the freezing got that deep.

P

And it's caused uh irrevocable damage to that foundation, and so it has to be.

P

Removed so you can, you can advance the the.

P

Pictures through the.

P

Photographs we've taken to that aviva, okay, here's.

P

I just I just went around the building and did all the corners and.

P

Some of the places in between, because there's no section of stone.

P

That exists- that's probably any longer than four feet that I could find that.

P

Does not it's not subject to all the cracks and the cracks are not just in the water, but some of them are also in the stone, as.

P

Well, so it's uh the other thing that that we.

P

Noticed if you go inside the foundation, there's never been.

P

There never was mortar properly tuck pointed on the backside of any of the.

P

Stone so they have a very thin line of support.

P

If you look at the way the stones stack.

P

From the outside and the way the mortar is applied.

P

To those spaces between the stones, they never were really set in a bed. A mortar.

P

It was a very slapdash when they did it and.

P

It's it's obviously, you know held a building for a while, but it's not.

P

It's in constant movement when it freezes, so the foundation's not deep.

P

Enough and it's structurally not able to support the building. uh The engineer didn't see the.

P

Depth of the foundation when he looked initially when aviva had him look at.

P

This he never dug around and looked at the.

P

Corners which something that I did, I dug all the corners out and we found that.

P

There was insufficient depth of foundation everywhere, as well as the crawl space, which is too shallow and.

P

Sloped and it's obviously, if you look inside it, it's.

P

It's wet, it's even wet in dry weather, so it's.

P

Has no no ability, you have no ability to work in there so.

P

Everything has to be excavated, the foundation has to be removed and then.

P

The crawl space has to be excavated before a proper.

P

Foundation can be placed to support a house steve. Can I advance the.

O

Pictures, yes sure yeah. These are some of the.

P

Inside pictures, which just show basic gaps on the.

P

Between the stones inside that have never been filled, occasionally there's a rock that's been put in to support the.

P

Space and then they they got some order in.

P

You know in places, but it's not uh it's not a continuous.

P

Sort of job it's like I said it's, it's pretty slap dash and.

P

And uh someone's gone back occasionally and.

P

Done some uh repointing on it, so it's not.

P

I saw no evidence of anyone who had extremely good mastery skills or even.

P

I would say: average masonry skills and I've. You know I've built.

P

About 30 new houses in my life and done a lot of remodels and.

P

You know it's, this is one of the worst foundations that I think I've seen.

P

Yeah, that's some more of the inside shots which show just the irregularity.

P

Of the stone and the irregularity of the mainstream work and that as well, you can.

P

There are places you'll see, light coming through.

P

And those you've seen that there's places where there's no mortar between.

P

The stones and several of these pictures- I I took.

P

So as to show that, but there was never any mortar placed.

P

Between the stones when they were set on one on top of the other, so you end up.

P

With quite a bit of space between the the.

P

Stones and and it's just you know, air and insect.

P

Filtration through those uh those kind of gaps.

P

Yep same thing: there yeah more of the holes right about in the middle.

P

Photograph there's light coming through uh places where there's just no mortar.

P

There's one and no mortar, okay, steve those are all the pictures.

O

I'm happy to I sent them to connor and I'm happy to have you folks. If you want to look at them more to to view them more.

F

And I also want to say how much I appreciated.

O

The folks who came out to actually look themselves to see it.

O

Steve did you have anything you wanted to add before.

O

I just kind of summed up well I mean I, I think the foundation.

P

Speaks for itself, if you look at it and or you look at the.

P

Pictures, obviously, the people that came out to look at it.

P

We do appreciate that because it was a hot day and everybody's. You.

P

Know got a lot going, but it's the sort of thing that.

P

With the lack of the proper depth and the lack of the proper construction on.

P

The original wall there's nothing, we can do.

P

With this wall, except to salvage the stone that are in it, which we intend to do because they there are some, you know nice examples of.

P

Indiana limestone and they're they're usable but um and fortunately the mortar will actually be.

P

Fairly easy to get off of them, because it's so sparsely applied and.

P

So uh inconsistently applied that cleaning them up will be.

P

A little easier than if it had been a full mortared wall that was being.

P

Demolished so um anyway, I just you know. I just appreciate.

P

Everybody taking a look and- and I you know if you have any questions.

P

Let me know I I hope I've made the explanation clear.

P

Enough that this foundation is not deep enough or.

P

Built sufficiently enough to support a finished structure, and um you know.

P

Anyway, if you have any questions, uh please let me know: hang in there steve.

B

Don't go anywhere, I'm sure we'll have some questions. Oh.

P

Yeah, I'm right, I'm just looking at one computer and talking in the other cell.

B

Yes, I just wanna, if I can just summarize before.

O

Questions um again with a thank you, but then also.

O

That um all the vibes I've gotten from the neighbors is that no one is attached to this house, as is I just heard that it would be useful. So I wrote to a bunch of neighbors and.

O

That was the neighbor I heard back from, who I want to full disclosure say, is.

O

Also, a good friend of mine, but um I I feel like I am going to build a.

O

House, that's not gonna, look in the style in the way that you want it.

O

With as much salvage material as possible, this is not an attempt to slap dash and use the property. I intend to make this.

O

My ada compliant retirement home, I would love it. My understanding is.

O

That, if you allow me to demolish it, I could also dig a basement.

O

Which would allow me to put the utilities in there and have a place for tornadoes, but you know I I don't materially.

O

Understand how this is different from house street.

O

I do understand that you don't want people just buying old houses and mowing.

O

Them down, but I don't think that's the case here. I bought it with the full intention of rehabbing it, as is.

O

And um it was only when steve got into the foundation, which is something I.

O

I regret not doing ahead of time that we found out how bad it was because.

O

Of the situation, I cannot insure it and I cannot get a.

O

Loan on it, if I demolish it, I can get a builder's.

O

Loan on it, but an unsound structure cannot they said.

O

Until you get a get the information that it's up to.

O

Code, they will not. um The the banks won't.

O

Lend to me so um I take some responsibility for not.

O

Understanding uh uh I did not know that the house was.

O

Uninsured for 10 years the guy came and just mowed the lawn.

O

But I take some responsibility for not investigating.

O

The consequences I I do think, though, that the neighborhood will be richer for.

O

The very cute in this same exact style, I think our only deviation is going to.

O

Be to add a bedroom on the back, but everything else is going to be.

O

Exactly the same, and I think it's going to be really nice, the neighborhood, I look forward to living a hop skip and a jump from crescent donuts. So.

O

I you know so it basically. I just want to.

O

I understand what your concerns are, but I think.

O

The cost to us um and the lack of benefit to us is not outweighed.

O

By some theoretical love of oldness, when we can provide.

O

Something that I think will be indistinguishable.

O

Except for the fact that it's not decrepit, so thanks a lot and steve- and I are here to answer questions.

O

If you have questions or relate to your comments, if helpful.

B

Thank you aviva uh chris questions yeah. um I.

G

Haven't been able to get to the site because of my hit problems.

G

I had assumed that it had pure corners and then was filled in later between the.

G

Piers, but I don't think that's what I'm seeing in.

G

This demonstration and I'd like that to be affirmed by the.

G

By petitioner- and I'm also seeing I thought it was on beams, but I'm seeing.

G

One by bands I mean two by bands instead of actual.

G

Beams that would have been between piers. So I think what I'm hearing said is that.

G

This whole foundation was laid together and it just wasn't.

G

Laid deeply enough, it isn't that it has secure peers on the.

G

Corners, although sometimes they would have built.

G

Piers on multiple out of multiple stone and then filled it.

G

In but I this is, after the beam and post.

G

Era of building it looks like it's, and so that's I am having a lot more.

G

Sympathy for this foundation argument than I expected to.

G

Have I do not like precedent of.

G

Of taking these down so we'll have to have serious findings about the.

G

Conditions that we don't uh allow this to become a precedent.

G

Setting building so I would like to hear a little if it's too I'm asking questions so could.

G

Petitioner and contractor talk a little more about that foundation.

O

I yield to my contractor uh chris. I I dug under.

P

The corners of the building, uh which the picture that's on the screen right now.

P

Is the corner the um the south west corner closest to the alley and.

P

Again, the bottom stone there was 16 inches, I think, or maybe.

P

About about 16 inches at that point below the.

P

The existing grade- and it is a fairly large stone and then the one.

P

That sits on it is overhangs it, but they it didn't.

P

Appear to be a stacked pier, it looked like it was.

P

Laid in with the wall, but it it could have been something that.

P

They could have come back and possibly laced into, but I couldn't.

P

I there's a tag that I've got on there. I think it's a little yellow envelope that.

P

Says number one, and that area is a smaller stone.

P

And it's not very wide so that and that is a corner, so it doesn't look like the.

P

Corners were laid up as piers, but um you know like we could meet out there.

P

And you could certainly, you know, have a look and see what you.

P

Know what you or you know some of you want you've.

G

Investigated it pretty thoroughly, it looks to me like.

P

Well, I did quite a bit of digging, you know, I dug relief ditches and I dug all.

P

The corners and then I dug along the foundation.

P

To verify the depth everywhere, that was my concern.

P

Right, I didn't realize it was that shallow, when we started.

P

But I just thought some problems with the masonry, but then I realized.

P

You know on all the digging that there was just not the depth there.

P

Thank you, um jeff questions, no question.

B

J

Questions. Thank you. um Susan.

K

Nope no questions. Sam, no questions, ernesto.

L

No questions at this time, jenny.

I

I had a question for staff um if this is removed and we we give reason.

I

To be removed, um is there a way to keep other parts.

I

Like the limestone front steps or something because they definitely tie in with the rest of the neighborhood and stuff like.

I

That I mean there's nothing wrong with those other than they probably need a rail um yeah. That's something.

E

You can certainly work out in the in the.

E

Approval you can put that caveat in there.

E

Okay, thank you all right and I would say that I'm very motivated that anything we.

O

Have been my garage is full of interior trim right now and anything.

O

That we can salvage, we will. Can I.

P

Also, add that I agree about the steps and any of those.

P

Features that I find those steps to be in.

P

Fairly good shape very fixable, as both sets.

P

The sidewalk is good and uh you know I've looked at some additional.

P

Landscaping to kind of complement: what's there from that corner,.

P

Shot that we're looking at right now, so I I agree that.

P

There's there's things about the house that we want to. You know.

P

Try to keep and replicate the look that I see.

P

Right there, so that if you came up the street, you wouldn't.

P

Recognize, except that it may be looked in very good shape, as opposed to.

P

That situation that you now see all right, thank you.

E

uh Steve derek: do you have any questions, yeah connor? When are we? I understand.

M

There are uh there's a neighbor um who in who is here at this meeting.

M

When are we doing public comments? I didn't, I don't think I remember.

M

That anybody getting anybody else getting a chance to.

M

Ask questions or talk or make comments in public.

E

Yeah, I think the public comments come after the commissioner comments.

M

All right! Well, in that case, I don't have any questions. Okay,.

B

Thank you all right, chris comments. What were the comments? Well.

G

I will say that there's a percentage of west side foundations.

G

That won't meet code and won't get repaired like this.

G

I mean this is a combination of a problem.

G

Because somebody could point them up, like they've, been doing for 100 years.

G

And the problem is that the bands are rotting and things I mean.

G

It's repairable, it's not a good condition and I'm surprised at.

G

How shallow it is, and that's that's the only reason that.

G

I'm wavering on on uh not just completely opposing this.

G

Because it does set a bad precedent.

G

You know if we fix things this bad, but it would take a lot of work to redo that.

G

Foundation and it could be done, yeah.

P

How would you depth, uh how would you excavate the footers, how.

P

Would you excavate down below, we did it on a house. This was a house.

G

Set on piers that had bad phil, we actually dug deep right beside.

G

It uh supported the house in steps, took the.

G

Hou took the stone down hand dug.

G

Under because you only have to dig in about 12 inches once you've.

G

You know power dug right beside the foundation.

G

Then you dig in enough to put a footer down and you lay the block up.

G

And then how would you excavate the crawl space.

G

um I wouldn't I wouldn't.

P

Yeah, I mean I've put foundations under existing walls.

P

In basement walls, where we, you know made like an exterior entrance.

P

But in those cases the foundations were uh stable.

P

And they were in good repair and of course, this is not a deep foundation.

P

But uh obviously anytime you're working down in a hole like that, it's.

P

You know, there's there's weight above you and I agree. You are.

P

Digging under it, and then you put in a footer and you have to support the stone.

P

It's there, I don't I'm not disagreeing with you, but I I looked at a.

P

Possible way of doing that- and it looked to me like your approach but just go ahead and disassemble.

P

The wall you know in whatever measured section.

P

Would be workable and then put the footer and then rebuild that part of the.

P

Wall, while that part of the house is supported and then move your way around, but obviously.

P

At some point it becomes cross-prohibitive or.

P

At least more expensive than some people might think it's worth.

P

I like the stone on the foundation, and I you know.

P

We want to reuse the stone, uh but you know I mean we're gonna.

P

Obviously, it's up to you to decide what you think the best. The best thing.

P

For bloomington is here, but I I just you know we want to replicate.

P

What's there but put in a very solidly built house.

P

One that is not going to crack and settle and.

P

And this one's you know a little anyway. I know you know.

P

It's it's. You know, I, I recognize you're, you know you're working out.

P

Of positivity here I just I'm looking at what aviva wants in a final house and.

P

From the street, where the water drains to the.

P

Corner of the alley, there is, if we do get permission to redo this, we build.

P

This then we can actually put in a basement.

P

In the place where this crawl space is which for the homeowner gives her the advantage for a huge nice mechanical.

P

Room as well as a storm, cellar and, and then the space above it becomes.

P

Totally usable and able to be, you know, occupied and.

P

I know spring points drawings. Originally, this is the exact house that they have.

P

On the drawing uh barry put it together and she she.

P

Just you know, I don't believe I think the mechanical room was somewhere in the floor. Space of the.

P

House but obviously it's a value if you can have your.

P

Utilities and all your utility functions in the lower level, but I know.

P

That's kind of beyond the architectural question here, but it's still a great advantage to the homeowner who.

P

Obviously, aviva wants to make a house that.

P

Is something she can retire in and and have.

P

Total accessibility and so anyway, thank you.

G

I hear that so I just want to speak in my comments to the record.

G

We have to be careful that we aren't starting a slippery slope and that we.

G

Aren't setting a precedent that you know.

G

Condition rules everything the foundation is.

G

Particularly bad here and if it was on piers and if these were on beams. As I.

G

Had supposed, I wouldn't approve this, but it's frame.

G

Mature structure on an inadequate foundation.

G

And since there is review full review of the input, infill.

G

I I feel comfortable with this, but I I do not.

G

Like uh precedent and I want to make sure that.

G

We are doing it strictly on specific conditions of this.

G

Property and it shouldn't generalize to other properties that.

G

Properties like this, a foundation like this with a house that was maintained on.

G

Top of it would be a appointing job.

G

Clean up you'd put it you'd re-point it, but the.

G

Structure is falling apart on top of it and it's weak and it doesn't have beams.

G

um So I am I'm reluctantly letting letting this go.

E

Chris, I want to speak to you to your comment about setting precedent.

E

uh You know the hpc does not set precedent with these types of decisions.

E

Hpc reviews each case individual and unique to its specific conditions.

E

um You know in the the title eight sword preservation code.

E

It talks about one of the the criteria for demolition is the hpc should be.

E

Looking at the state of deterioration, disrepair and structural stability when they are taking demolition into.

E

Consideration so you know they need to talk about.

E

Those points every time you look at demolition, you need to be taking the state of deterioration, disrepair and structural.

E

Stability into consideration, you don't just.

E

Because you find that it, it meets instability or you know uh you.

E

Know disrepair and deteriorate doesn't mean you have to allow demolition, but you should be taking that as part of your.

E

Consideration which I think you're doing here, doing a good job with, um but I just wanted to reiterate that you know the hpc does.

E

Does not set precedent if we set set precedent, then, when we allowed jim.

E

Rosenberger to demolish that structure last summer, this would be a you know, a shoe-in right, because we allowed him to.

E

Demolish a property and greater prospect till a couple blocks away.

E

um I saw just to your point: we don't set precedent.

G

Right, I just say the argument is always the same. It's our.

G

Job to determine the veracity of the argument.

B

Right. Thank you. Chris uh jeff comments.

H

I am very conflicted about this. uh This demolition, um you know I was there.

H

I did walk through the house. I understand the foundation is.

H

An issue for sure that being said, except for the bathroom walking around.

H

The inside of the house, there was uh very little.

H

Signs of settlement so the you know: it's been there for a hundred years and it's.

H

Still there um is the foundation, an issue for sure.

H

I think we all agree it can be fixed, uh how much that will cost. You know that's.

H

Not my expertise um and to the argument.

H

That uh that what you're replacing it with is, will be exactly the same is.

H

Not the point of historic preservation, um on the other hand,.

H

You know I was part of the original uh determination and writing of the.

H

Guidelines for this district- and it is historic, light.

H

I want people to be able to live there and get her point about.

H

uh Financing, although um I'm sure you can get a commercial.

H

Note subject to completion there are.

H

Different ways to finance this project other than a traditional mortgage.

H

um And then once the work is done, then you can get a traditional mortgage.

H

um So I'm I'm just going to listen to the other commissioners and that will.

H

Determine the way I vote, thank you. Jeff.

J

uh Yes, um agree with the with the conflicts.

J

Exposed by or expressed by chris and jeff, both.

J

um uh But I didn't go to it. um Staying inside so didn't go to see it.

J

Inside uh my only comment would be that if.

J

We allow the demolition to go through that as much as possible that the.

J

Limestone blocks be used either practically or decoratively.

J

Around the foundation, so it looks the same, not the the.

J

Blocks taken away from the foundation and made into.

J

Planters around the front or whatever, but instead be that the foundation be.

J

um Use those limestone foundation blocks in a in as practical as possible, whether.

J

It's just on the outside of a sturdy foundation or as part of a better.

J

Foundation for looks so thank you.

B

All good, thank you, um susan.

K

No, I don't have anything to add okay, uh sam! Oh I'm, I'm full of comments.

D

um So I crawled under the house, um I I.

D

Differ with uh steve's uh evaluation of the foundation. It's it's! I live in a.

D

House that was built in the late 20s early 30s and.

D

You know I've got light shining through various parts of.

D

My my limestone foundation walls and uh I'm really happy with my house that.

D

Said um so, so I think this house is.

D

Salvageable, you know the the the rigid straight the.

D

Foundation has not uh to my eye incurred differential settlement.

D

Over its entire existence, uh I agree that the.

D

The you know, all the roof. Rafters are sagging.

D

You need to reinforce those the floor beams.

D

Are or the floor joists rather they're, solid, uh but they're over.

D

They're over spanned, um but you know structural arguments aside.

D

um I I'm looking more strongly at what's for the greater.

D

Good here- um and I am thankful that the petitioner.

D

Came back and asked us to look at this again.

D

Because, uh looking at this again, regardless of.

D

Of the new arguments, uh I think the fact.

D

That the neighborhood commission or the.

D

Neighborhood committee unanimously supports this project and.

D

The fact that she is willing to work within the.

D

The the the spirit of what um this neighborhood is about.

D

Transcends what this keeping this exact structure in place.

D

Would do for the neighborhood and for greater bloomington for me, so.

D

I am after I, I've talked to the structural engineer.

D

I talked to the structural engineer not only in regard to this house, but in regard to jim rosenberger's house down the street.

D

This house is in better shape. The rosenberger house was that was a.

D

Tear down um this one, it's it's it's a little iffy.

D

But like, what are you saving and what are you gaining by saving it.

D

That's more questionable! So after.

D

A long period of consideration I'm going to support demolition on this one.

B

Thank you, sam ernesto. Yes, thank you.

L

Yes, it's in it's a it's it's in bad shape. Yes,.

L

But I think you can rescue this house. I've seen houses in a lot.

L

Worse conditions and they're, one of the most beautifuls.

L

Now, in the in that precise neighborhood prosper hill near west side, all over the.

L

Place here in bloomington, I just think that you can still salvage that. Yes, it has problems. You know.

L

But those can be solved and just to um just to.

L

Remind the structural report: it talks about the ways that this could.

L

Be salvaged the ways that we can resolve each little.

L

Problem that it has there's no place in that report that.

L

Recommends demolition of this house.

L

That could be salvaged, I don't think yeah. We talked about that.

L

You, we don't say, precedence, sure, that's! That's! Okay!.

L

But it could send a signal that we can do this.

L

Over and over there we have the ability to fix this house.

L

The foundation, yes, is in bad shape. Sure we've seen worse conditions in this.

L

And the house is there beautifully standing in color.

L

So there are ways to fix this.

L

It would be a really shame if this come down.

L

um I think I'm really surprised that the neighborhood is.

L

Supporting this I mean as as bad as it looks. It just shows you.

L

That still standing still standing.

L

And we should be proud of this. We should be proud of this house. That is.

L

Still standing has poorly as it was built back in the day.

L

Is still standing there has to be, this will.

L

And passion to to preserve this type of structures.

L

You know when we see these type of structures on the street. It's like a.

L

Challenge you have to own it and with passion fix it.

L

Otherwise, we would be tearing down every little thing that we see.

L

Just because it represents a challenge, I'm I'm on an advisor level, but.

L

Which means that I don't have a vote, but I do have a voice for these structures.

L

And I don't think it deserves to be turned down.

L

Just a reminder, you know the structural report does not recommend.

L

To demo this house totally the opposite, it gives you a map to try to fix.

L

This, yes, there are some structures that are very.

L

You know really really bad shape. Strong winds could just take it down not.

L

This one still standing, I just.

L

I don't know I don't want to go in a long, long. Explanation.

L

But I just think it deserves better that the entire neighborhood in general.

L

Deserves this house, we should be very protected.

L

About this, this type of structures that can be.

L

Salvaged I hear a lot of comments about the foundation. I think it's greater than.

L

That we know that we can fix that foundation in certain many different ways find the the best way to fix it. I know.

L

There are better better ways to do that, so.

L

I don't know it's a tough one, uh not to decide what to do with it, but if.

L

It comes down. That's going to be really tough, to see.

L

Again, just in our previous uh hearing, it was very clear where we.

L

What we thought about this structure, the fact that it's not considered.

L

Unique doesn't mean that we have to take it down.

L

um Just something to think about. Thank you. Thank.

B

You ernesto um so my comments uh lean towards what.

B

Ernesto has said: I've done a few houses around the near west side and I know one.

B

Of my my former uh associate uh owns several houses.

B

There in the near west side and we've gone in and replaced.

B

Entire foundations, with block they've, had to support the house and.

B

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, I think there's been some over there in that area. We've gone in and put a basement in.

B

Underneath the house it's possible, but all that is and and um I.

B

I hate to see another structure go away, um but that's up for our commission to.

B

Make that decision at this point I have something to add to.

G

My comments when it's my at the end of your comments, please, yes,.

B

Chris is it, are you done yes, chris.

G

Yeah I've listened to fellow commissioners and.

G

I've envisioned how you could do that basement utility in the back.

G

You'd repair that entire back wall with that process.

G

Then you only have these three walls to fix.

G

The jewel of the house is the historic authenticity of the front part.

G

You can add as much as you need in the back.

G

I have I have listened to my fellow commissioners and changed my mind on.

G

This, I don't think the foundation is enough to drive this.

G

And I think the fact that it's, like every other house.

G

In the neighborhood means that it's a contributing house.

G

And that every other house in the neighborhood has a value and they have a value as a group and the authenticity will not.

G

Be there even if you build a new house that looks just like the old house, so I am going to.

G

Vote against this uh demolition- and I just.

G

It's so close, that's what I mean. I changed my mind in the course of this.

G

Meeting and then in the course of this meeting, changed it back so.

G

I just wanted to announce that. Thank you. Thank you. Chris, do we have any uh public.

B

Comments, I don't think everybody spoke yet. No, not.

M

Jenny not I go ahead, derek.

M

Well, I have to agree with chris. He stole some of my.

M

Best points there, it is contributing and that's why.

M

It's important it's important to the houses next door to it and then the.

M

House, the left, the house to the right: it's what defines it. The neighborhood as.

M

An old working class neighborhood now I do.

M

Understand that you know, petitioner wants more space, etc.

M

And that's something you know we can talk about going forward because.

M

One thing that we've always allowed here it houses to grow.

M

From the back end, which means, if you want to extend the house and.

M

You know out the rear side you're going to be able to do that, so you will be.

M

Able to add more space, um but I guess the key question is.

M

Or or the key points are, it is a contributing house.

M

And number two: in the 50 years that bri has been fixing houses. We have seen way.

M

Worse than this and fixed it, so it's doable it's more.

M

Than doable and if it's doable, we can't let it go, we can't let it go.

M

Thank you jimmy.

I

Yeah um there's a lot of things I really like about this house.

I

It's got some charming little details. It's not.

I

It's not a throwaway house. I actually love the little nine over one windows.

I

I love the little front porch, um it does have a limestone foundation limestone.

I

Steps, I'm not an architect. I am not a.

I

Refurbisher, so I will not speak on that. um I will say.

I

That I was thinking probably along lines with some of the other commissioners. There's no reason you can't excavate in.

I

The backyard put a nice storm shelter back there.

I

Attached to the house, add on a bathroom add on a master bedroom.

I

You know a nice screen, porch, there's all kinds of things that can be done with.

I

This house, uh to get the things um that the petitioner.

I

Wants without tearing it down, uh it is gonna cost money to renovate it.

I

um I think that's was reflected in its original price and.

I

I truly I'm astounded. It's still in this.

I

Good ship, it is considering how long it sat empty. That is not not common for a house to be able to stand that long.

I

Without some serious, much more serious problems with this.

I

So I am not a voting member, but if it was my house I.

I

Wouldn't have, I wouldn't tear it down and I think it is salvageable, but.

I

I am totally bowing to uh whatever the architects and uh other.

I

People that know a lot more about structures than I do uh so.

I

Thank you so um public comments. Okay, do we have any.

B

Public comments, yes, I'm here, um can you hear me.

Q

Yeah, okay: uh this is jan sorby and steve. Wyatt could not be here today.

Q

He's on vacation, and so he asked me to be here in his.

Q

Stead, um I am the chair.

Q

Of the endangered historic properties committee and have worked with bri for.

Q

Many many years and I have to agree with.

Q

A lot of, what's being said in terms of the condition of this house.

Q

uh Bri has has seen far far far worse houses and.

Q

Really really a lot uh more questionable condition.

Q

Matter of fact, many of the houses have run 6th and 7th that we've done.

Q

They did not have a depth of foundation any deeper than this.

Q

And the foundations were absolutely far worse condition than this particular.

Q

House and I I will say that whoever.

Q

Suggested to aviva that she needed to lift the entire house up.

Q

By a house mover to then put a foundation.

Q

Under is really leading her in the wrong direction.

Q

You just don't do it that way, you take it down piece by piece. You.

Q

Jack it up that area, and you rebuild it, that's exactly what.

Q

We have always done then also. I have to say that the house.

Q

Is pretty darn square? It's not sloping one way or the other. It.

Q

Looks tidy and square and it's been there for a very long time.

Q

The um issue also that uh steve wanted me to talk about.

Q

Was the roof system? People have talked about how saggy it is and how it didn't.

Q

Have an adequate um substrate strata and.

Q

The fact is is most of the roofs in this area.

Q

Almost all the roofs of this age were built for cedar, shake.

Q

And cedar shake has excuse me totally different system.

Q

Than um what you would typically find in a house today,.

Q

For cedar shake the shakes actually get wet.

Q

And they swell up and that's how they keep the rain out.

Q

And so you have to have members uh wooden members that will move.

Q

And will function in that kind of system and that's what you see in that roof.

Q

System in this house, almost every house in that area and the near west side.

Q

Were originally built with cedar, shake and.

Q

Almost every house in that area will have that roofing system.

Q

The over overspan on the uh um flooring is not unusual either.

Q

uh Kevin potter, I believe, uh suggested how to peer up underneath and that's.

Q

Exactly what he's done for bri in every house that we've done in that.

Q

Area we've done, maybe what.

Q

45 55 houses in that area and they're all in this worse condition.

Q

Than this, and with the same system for the roofing.

Q

The same system for the foundation and um also steve.

Q

Went to our insurance company and he gave them.

Q

All of the recommendations that we would give on a house of this nature.

Q

And it came back with for the year for insurance.

Q

They could insure it for 442 a year now, on a personal level, I'm.

Q

Working on a house on west 6th street- and I have everything covered- I've got.

Q

Bells and whis whistles on the insurance and it's under.

Q

2 000 for the year, so I would be happy to share both bri's.

Q

Information, my personal information, whatever I can do to help out on this.

Q

Because I don't think this house is at the end of its life.

Q

I think that um there are ways of getting mortgages. There's a.

Q

203 203 k loan, which is specifically set up.

Q

For this kind of situation, there are construction loans and most of.

Q

The time what individuals do is they actually use a.

Q

Home equity loan on their own personal house and take out.

Q

Money and then fix up the house. That's in.

Q

In disrepair and then get a conventional loan.

Q

After it's fixed up, so um I don't see any reason in comparison to.

Q

What bri has done that this house should be even.

Q

Considered for demolition, it's part of the fabric.

Q

It is what the fabric is of the neighborhood.

Q

And if we start pulling the threads of that fabric.

Q

Then the character of that street is completely.

Q

At risk, how many houses will you have to lose.

Q

Before that fabric is gone, so I'm here on behalf of steve wyatt.

Q

And um I'm also here on behalf of bri saying that.

Q

You know we will help um aviva uh provide her with our insurance.

Q

Companies, names etc. Whatever we can do because we think that.

Q

This house is really totally favorable. Thank you, jan.

B

Connor, you have an additional comment, I'd like to add one more thing.

M

um This is derek, I'm sorry, but the point number two where that says the.

M

Building is not unique or rare occurrence in blooming.

M

I really don't know what that has to do with the price of bread when we're.

M

Talking about a contributing house, so I'm not even sure why that's on there.

M

Maybe someone can explain to me, but that's never really been a.

M

Determining factor okay, so the reason that's on there.

E

Is because part of the criteria for designation of a structure is? Is it.

E

Architecturally unique or a rare occurrence in bloomington, so that's the.

E

Reason I pulled that on there. Okay, thanks, that's! I just wondered.

E

So I'd just like to make a quick comment.

E

For those of the public and cats who are watching this meeting, you know I'm the.

E

Program manager for sword preservation. I often find myself clearly in the.

E

Middle between groups like bri, whose sole mission is to.

E

Preserve every single building, that's old in bloomington and groups and.

E

Homeowners and property owners and people who would like to see.

E

Bloomington kind of change and evolve a little bit and I think really the best.

E

Answer to all that, on a personal level is some kind of balance between those two extremes. I think bri was very well represented.

E

Tonight at tonight's meeting I think the logic that I'm hearing.

E

Is kind of frighteningly one-dimensional, and that is that.

E

Because we've saved worse, we have to save this and I just keep hearing that.

E

Same point over and over and over again using that.

E

Same logic, you can throw that across the entire city of bloomington and say: well, we save worse. Therefore, nothing should ever be demolished again. That's old and I think that's too simple. It's too black and white. I I was encouraged to hear sam kind of.

E

Bring some other criteria into consideration.

E

I think it's important to consider balancing public interest and saving the.

E

Structure with really the use of the structure or the property.

E

By the owner, I think you know anytime, you have government regulation of property, it's very serious and you need to think very carefully.

E

uh About about all decisions that you make hey connor,.

H

Yeah, I disagree with that. Your your reasoning would be great if this was a.

H

Demolition delay, but we're talking about a property in a historic district. Yes, thank you.

E

Okay, so so, whenever someone becomes a historic district, the logic is we put a.

E

Glass case over it and it never changes. Oh because I agree my my vision for.

H

Prospect hill is that it grows and changes, but that we don't just.

H

Willy-Nilly, tear down every house because there are issues with it. You.

H

Know that the the argument that I've heard many times.

H

Is about you start removing teeth and you lose the smile and that's what this property really.

H

Represent is is: do we allow that that houses that.

H

Could be fixed, uh be torn down just because it's hard.

H

Right so your ultimate bar there is, can it be fixed.

E

But no can it be reasonably fixed and this is way within the framework of.

M

Reasonable, that's the point here is bri is fixed.

E

Work so we have to save this.

E

I said how I feel I think I represent a large part of the community on that. I'm.

E

Just trying to mediate between two extremes, all I'm trying to do I'm trying to get us to think about things. I appreciate your logic. I appreciate your feedback, but you know we can move on. Thank you all.

E

Right um so did I get a motion.

G

One comment: this can be a win-win you, you can preserve the best part of the.

G

Historic and put a really good new structure to.

G

It and then you get the 100 year floors. You.

G

Get the trim you get the the the best part of the.

G

Historic and you get the new structure behind it.

G

So that's why I want to say it doesn't have to be one way or the.

G

Other here we can please both uh goals. Yeah we've been very flexible.

M

About letting people build almost whatever they want under the rear end of.

M

These houses, so I think, we're not being too crazy here.

O

There's some opportunity for me to reply or should or.

O

Are you waiting for a motion.

O

um Just a couple um I I won't waste your time because I feel like.

O

It's um I you know, because I feel like. First of all, you spend a lot of time on.

O

And I appreciate it, but three things I wanted to say. First.

O

Of all in response to ernesto ernesto, the.

O

Structural report didn't acknowledge the depth problem.

O

So I think to rely too heavily on it when there was a major.

O

Factor missing there um and I and didn't discuss the issue of. I think the.

O

Pointing of the corners I I I don't want to speak exactly, but.

O

It was we, we have said all along that we didn't think that was.

O

What was fully correct? Second of all, what I hear is a lot of emotion.

O

About a house um and uh but I think, when we talk about the.

O

Emotion, you should also ask about the people who live in that neighborhood.

O

Not just people who are devoted to housing, but the actual.

O

Neighbors would prefer to have it demolished, and I think that.

O

If you're thinking about precedence, I I did not buy this.

O

At a you know, you know, I'm sure I don't. I can't tell you, I'm not a real estate.

O

What kind of a deal I got, but I thought I was buying it for.

O

To renovate it for another 60 000, which is now.

O

Just not going to be possible, um I thought I was going to do a lot of.

O

Cosmetic things, and when you tell me- and I want to be.

O

Very clear, steve never said anything about lifting the house that was kind of my understanding like working from the.

O

From from the inside out is what I would say.

O

But I bet I think you should think about what you'd want. Average citizens not.

O

Just people who are involved with bri to do when they get a house and are.

O

Really intent on pleasing their neighbors and making.

O

It a good place to live. You have a lot of indications that the.

O

People who actually live in this neighborhood would be very satisfied with my doing it. The way I propose.

O

And, furthermore, I think it's just going to slow it down. There is not a universe.

O

In which I'm going to mortgage my house to do this, I would just I'm I'm cash.

O

Flowing this- and I will just do it more slowly, so this has been abandoned for 10 years and then.

O

In process for two years I'll be in process for another five years, and I.

O

Think someone else who wants to do what I do want to do.

O

Which is the right thing? It's going to really be deterred from individually trying to fix up a home in the character of the.

O

Neighborhood and instead will end up saying you know.

O

These people are crazy, they're going to make you do all this incredibly expensive work because they value intrinsically, even if.

O

You can't see the difference, the historicity of the place and what.

O

You'll have is more places that just rot like this, so if you don't make it reasonable for people to fix it.

O

Who have good will and really good intentions and we'll save the stairs and.

O

We'll save the beams when we can, I I you know, I'm still. I will eventually.

O

Fix this house, but it will take me much longer.

O

And it's just kind of a shame for the people in the neighborhood, who, I think would prefer for me to be able.

O

To just do it from the ground up more quickly, so I I guess I really am.

O

With connor on this that, I think, there's a continuum there's absolutely.

O

No question that with enough money and if I wanted to.

O

Mortgage, my house, I could, I could get what I needed to do.

O

And I want to say that I appreciate what jan said and I will definitely consult her about insurance, because I did not. I inquired in eight.

O

Separate places and did not find any, um but what I don't.

O

um But I think you guys are being short-sighted and that I think you're.

O

Gonna see a lot more places like this in neighborhoods, when the word is that it's just impossible to rehab these places.

O

Without tremendous expense,.

B

Any additional comments.

L

Yes, john, can I respond to abiba's comment.

B

Sure abiba, what I was referring to is that.

L

In kevin potter's report he's given us or giving you.

L

Ways to to repair all the parts and pieces of the house.

L

There is no place in his report that, because of the deficiencies that it.

L

Represents structurally, he recommends to demolish the house.

L

Just to be clear, as I said, he missed some things in his inspection.

O

I mean, I don't know what he would say if you, if he had heard steve's.

O

Overview and saw the pictures.

B

So that brings us back to emotion.

G

B

Okay, second, okay, jeff.

G

So is a yes. What is a yes? What is a no.

E

Yes is in favor of denying the petition okay.

G

Yes denies the petition to my demolish. I vote. Yes,.

C

I I haven't taken the vote yet. Oh, I thought that.

G

It's hard to hear so, I'm with you, okay, all right.

C

So so, yes is denying the motion and no is to approve right.

E

The motion was deny the petition. Okay, okay, I just want to be clear on it. Okay,.

C

All right, sam desaler, so a no is like uh knock the house down.

D

Right, yes, no.

C

Was that a no? That's a no thank you, susan dyer! No.

C

Jeff golden yes deb hutton. Yes,.

C

John saunders, yes, chris sterbaum, yes,.

C

Motion to deny carried four to two.

O

Thank you for all your time. I want to make sure I'm not still the.

O

The person, if I leave, I won't close the whole meeting out.

O

Okay, good good luck! Thank you very much and I will contact.

O

C

I told you all right: new business.

E

So jd are you here? uh Yes, I am okay, so uh I just wanted jd to speak on.

E

This himself I'll give a brief background to what's going on.

E

I know I forwarded an email chain to the hpc earlier today, giving you some.

E

Context to to this uh basically city hall,.

E

Is having some mainstream repairs done on the south elevation.

E

Which is some tuck pointing and uh inserting.

E

Inserting some angle irons, I guess above the.

E

Windows to prevent some leaking issues they're having jd, you can explain.

E

More the technical stuff on that second, but the contractor.

E

Umphrist masonry recommended that a uh water sealant be applied to.

E

The brick to mitigate some water infiltration issues that the.

E

Building has been having jd consulted me on this.

E

And we did a test patch and uh the test patch after a couple weeks.

E

Looked just a shade darker, but it wasn't much and it certainly beaded water off. So it was effective.

E

um I had always been taught that uh putting.

E

Sealants and paints on masonry old, mainstream's, a bad idea so.

E

I decided to uh I consulted duncan: he did was not in favor of it. I then.

E

Reached out to a national group of professionals across.

E

The country and I got a few responses that I share with you, um and so because of the feedback I received, I asked jd.

E

To not apply the sealant to the masonry, however, they would like to.

E

Still apply the sealant and uh and jd has and the engineer john crane.

E

On the project, as well with jd and they're, going to present their their.

E

Argument for why they believe sealant should be applied.

R

Yeah the project was to uh address some structural issues uh across.

R

The window headers, um I was let me.

R

Turn this off, I'm getting I'm getting some feedback hold on just a moment.

R

Okay, um they did replace uh the steel window headers across top the.

R

Windows on the the top windows, the second floor windows.

R

And we did do a 100 tuck, pointing on the on the south wall.

R

The problem we're having isn't exactly a water infiltration issue.

R

And most all the document documentation I've seen on this.

R

They don't recommend using it to prevent water infiltration.

R

Effervescence or rising damp from the ground.

R

And that's not what our issue is. Our issue is actually the face of the brick.

R

Is falling off uh there's chunks of the brick that are.

R

Every winter we find piles of pieces of brick at the base of.

R

That wall, it's caused by water soaking into the.

R

Face of the brick and freezing and spalling off and.

R

That's the reason that we request use the sealer.

R

Is to prevent that spalling of the brick we've had no.

R

Problems with that fluorescence on the inside the building or.

R

Moisture uh other than some water that got through some bad mortar joints that.

R

We've corrected with the tuck pointing issue, and we feel that this, the spalling issue uh warrants applying a breathable sealer.

R

To that exterior of the wall to prevent that from deteriorating the brick.

R

Face further, so why is this occurring now.

B

When the building's over 100 years old- and why are we seeing this happening.

R

I can't hear you I'm sorry. My question is.

B

Is that this structure is over 100 years old now,.

B

Why are we seeing this occurring at this point in time.

B

Why has it occurred 50 years ago or 40 years ago?.

B

Why are we seeing the spalding now what's causing it.

S

If you don't mind, I'd like to respond to that yeah, this is john crane with bfw.

R

Crane he's our consulting engineer on the project.

S

I think one of the potential explanations for that is.

S

A lot of masonry products when they're new have a pretty.

S

Hard shiny surface and whether that's from like, like a limestone product.

S

Whether that's because it was planed and sanded.

S

Or if that's a brick product- and it has a.

S

Just a a formed or a mold that you know kind of creates more of a.

S

Of a tighter face- and I think that's actually one of the things that they.

S

Endeavored to do in the brick manufacturing process is try to make as tight and as water resistant.

S

Face as can be achieved well and and and they they do accomplish, that.

S

You know, but one of the things that I guess is is is ever present is weathering and so.

S

What we see is it's kind of of a self-aggravating process.

S

And the fact that you know after a few years you know.

S

Weathering takes an initial toll and the initial.

S

You know smooth non-porous surface tends to to to lose some of its.

S

Shininess, if you will and and as such, it tends to become.

S

A slight bit porous, which allows a a a very small amount of absorption.

S

Absorption of ambient, you know on a down a humid day like today.

S

Okay or whatever, well, I guess where I'm really headed and answer your questions.

S

It's it over time, the shininess wears off, and it just becomes more and.

S

More porous and and as it becomes more porous in the winter, it's able to absorb more water and and freeze.

S

And uh expand and cause what you know: surface density to even be.

S

You know further degraded and it absorbs more water. The next time.

S

I say it's actually: it's a self-aggravating process, it's kind of a downward spiral and the older the older. You know brick buildings. This isn't the only example of this. By the way this is actually you know, common in old, brick, buildings and old, stone buildings. We actually have.

S

More experience and spend more time in the limestone industry than we do or.

S

Limestone you know around when we do the brick realm, but the, uh but the effects are the same in the fact.

S

That you know once the once the nice tight surface is gone. It.

S

Just is able to absorb a little more water and and freeze and make it worse and then the next time it's able to.

S

Absorb a little more water and it freezes and sprawls and makes it.

S

Worse and so that's why you say, and eventually.

S

That's why it's so important that we do something now, at least in my opinion,.

S

Is because it has spalled off, it has gotten to this point.

S

It it you know it, it's it's one of those logarithmic or exponential problems. You.

S

Know the worse it gets the worse it gets, and so that's why we're seeing an.

S

Acceleration of it now and that's why I think it's really the most prudent to to try to put down try to mitigate.

S

The whole problem.

B

B

My one of my concerns about applying a product on the surface of the bricks is.

B

That moisture could still get behind that sealant.

B

And then we could still have the same problem. I'm sorry. We can't hear you at.

R

B

I'm sorry one of my concerns about putting a sealant on the brick.

B

Is that moisture will still get in there and will still cause our same.

B

Problem and my other concern about using a ceiling.

B

Is how often will it have to be reapplied.

B

To continue the protection.

S

Well, I guess my only reply to that is.

S

And I guess it's it's, it's a pretty argument. Sure we're not going to be able.

S

To prevent 100 of any moisture from.

S

Continuing to cause the problems we had, but we could certainly stop a.

S

Significant portion of it, you know I I it seems that gosh.

S

The ability to mitigate you know, I would only be guessing it.

S

Percentages- and so I would have no way you know so.

S

So guys, if we, if we're able to slow down 95 or 98 or 99, that certainly seems desirable.

S

And as far as the the frequency of repeat.

S

I I don't know. I do know, though, that if left totally.

S

Un totally un totally exposed like it is now.

S

It will become an even more progressive problem.

S

And so the frequency of some reapplication.

S

Man, I can't respond to that, but and I would guess you're right, you know.

S

Five years, 10 years I don't know, but I'm sure that it will need reapply.

B

Yes, um sam questions: uh can the petitioner speak to the.

D

Condition of the uh tuck pointing on the south elevation.

D

And the condition of the gutters on the south elevation.

D

And also speak a little bit as to why they.

D

Think that it's happening on the south and not any of the other elevations.

R

um Well, I think the the south elevation is exposed to more of the wind-driven.

R

Rain than the other elevations, um it is a problem that is occurring on.

R

The other elevations of the building, but it does seem more pronounced on this.

R

The south end of the building, one of the things that I personally feel.

S

That is why we always see it on the south elevation.

S

Primarily and a little bit on the east and a little on the west and never on the north is because of the when the sun shines. On that, let's say.

S

We're talking about a cold january day, 25 degree ambient air temperature. Oh my.

S

Gosh, when the sun shines on that brick, you know it's bouncing off the parking.

S

Lot or whatever the surface is, and you know the if you, if you lay your hand.

S

On that brick in the winter time you know if the ambient air is 25, the bricks may be 35 degrees. At you know, at 2 o'clock in the afternoon, just.

S

Because of the uh just because of the sun shining.

S

On them and then being a dark, color and then absorbing that see absorbing the you know, absorbing the heat from the sun.

S

And and and warming and then okay once again, sun goes down.

S

Five o'clock in the afternoon everybody's headed home, all of those bricks, cool down from the 35 that they may have achieved back down to 25 ambient air temperatures, and so.

S

I think that's actually why we see it being more.

S

More prevalent, more pronounced and, and generally, if we're ever going to see it.

S

On a building it is on the south side and it's normally on the like, say the darker bricks absorb more heat than the lighter bricks do and it's more pronounced on brick than on stone.

S

And but I feel it's it's solely because of the.

S

The you know, the freeze thought the repeated freeze thaw.

S

That the south ex the south wall sees whereas the north north wall, it's in the.

S

Shade all winter long, you know those bricks are, are 25 degrees.

S

And at night and 25 degrees during the day, but the south ones are the ones that really have the.

S

The temperature fluctuations, just like they just do the sun coming up and going.

S

Back down again, as a follow-up question, I'd ask would.

D

You advocate for similar treatment on the east and west.

D

Sure, but not at this time or is that uh something that you're.

D

Well, you know, I guess we didn't necessarily.

S

Discuss any particulars on if we were going to you know, apply it to one.

S

Particular site or where the where the limits would be.

S

I we were, I guess to us, it was more of a you know. Should we put it on or not and.

S

So we were just of the opinion that boy it did and and.

S

We certainly understand it and for certain there's certain certain problems that sealer sealers do not fix and we.

S

Certainly acknowledge that, but this is one that we feel is.

S

Only fixable by some exterior protection, as far as the limits.

S

Gosh, I I would think we would definitely want to be the south.

S

Because of just because of the acceleration of the problem.

S

S

I I would leave that up for discussion. I don't know that I have a really.

S

uh Now, actually, I just never really thought about it. You know, and as far as.

S

The few seconds I've had to consider, while I'm sitting here, I don't really have a very strong opinion. I I think the south side ought to be done to the extent of any other signs. Would.

S

Be just I suppose we can evaluate that, depending on the extent of the.

S

Deterioration, um you know maybe find a real good.

S

If I recall on the east elevation, there's two subtle.

S

Building lines, one is somewhat skewed to the normal orthogonal.

S

Northeast southwest directions, and one is somewhat parallel: it's a north south.

S

Wall, you know there might be some easy.

S

Places to stop that would never be visually comparable to a.

S

Surface and uh immediately adjacent to you know what I'm trying to say here there probably some places it would make sense to stop and start, and so, but here again I guess I really.

S

Don't have any real, strong opinions on the stopping and starting points. Other.

S

Than I think we ought to do the south wall.

R

Yeah and from a project standpoint, the scope of our.

R

Repair and tuck pointing project was the south wall.

R

And we were just since we had the scaffolding up on the south wall.

R

As part of this project anyway- and that was the worst.

R

Area of spalling that that's the reason we requested the south wall.

D

And I I might have missed it in your earlier response, but can you speak to.

D

The condition of the tuck pointing on the south and also the east and west.

D

Walls as well as the this may not be in your.

D

Scope but uh the condition of the gutters and all of.

D

Those as well the gutters, uh the drainage of the roof.

R

System seems to be in good shape. It's mostly internal downspouts at city hall,.

R

uh And we we repair those as they start leaking and.

R

Leaking into the offices, um the uh actual.

R

Well, what's the other part of the question oh pointing at the.

S

The condition of the mortar and how much time oh uh on the south end.

R

We were looking at at least probably a 40 tuck point.

R

uh On the south wall, we decided to 100 checkpoint just to get the consistency.

R

Because there have been so many patches through the years with the wrong mortar.

R

Compounds and caulking that it just looked awful.

R

And we we decided to do 100, pointing just from a maintenance.

R

Standpoint that it would eliminate any water infiltration and then from an appearance standpoint, it would make that whole wall consistent uh the the top pointing on the east side.

R

Of the building wasn't in quite as bad as shape, uh we.

R

Were probably looking at a 10 to 20 tuck, pointing on the east wall of the.

R

Building, uh I can't speak to the north end that the.

R

County owns or the the west end that cfc owns. It's part.

S

The damage that we observed on the east side was primarily.

S

And here again, just to kind of refresh remember if you're standing out on.

S

Morton and you're looking to the west, you see all the sawtooths at the uh at the.

S

Bottom of all, the sawtooth is where the uh scupper and gutter.

S

Downsta downspout system is right around and and localized specifically localized.

S

Around the scupper exit, that's really where we saw the.

S

Primary amount of mortar spa, mortar damage, mortar.

S

Deterioration and so that's where we really expected most of the tuck point.

S

And that's where we specified on our plans for the tuck, pointing to actually be primarily, you know, focused on the rest.

S

Of it's really in pretty good shape.

D

But this falling is not only just occurring at the.

D

Portions at the scuppers, but it's it's prevalent well.

S

Gosh, I don't want to get bogged down in semantics.

S

The spalling is a serious issue on the south side.

S

It's not nearly as serious on the east sides or anywhere else. I mean we didn't.

S

Really observe it to be that big of a deal anywhere else: okay, the the issues that we see on the east side, for example,.

S

Are more of a tuck? It's more of the mortar deteriorating.

S

Due to the splash okay, here again, it's all caused by water.

S

And the reason why it's always around the scuppers is because that's where the water is, I would assume, would run down with some velocity enough to hit the scupper and splash a little. On the surface of.

S

The brick and- and here again it's just the the repeated exposure to moisture and you know below freezing.

S

Temperatures that accelerate some of the damage we just didn't.

S

Well, one we didn't take the man left around the east side and get up and.

S

Really scrutinize all the scupper locations we were doing from the ground.

S

But yet it didn't appear to have, for whatever reason it just didn't.

S

Appear to have the significance of the spalling, I can see.

S

That there was it was spalling and mortar on the south side on so on the east side, it was mainly just the mortar, at least.

S

From my my uh observations and we didn't see a.

S

Bunch of brick chips laying on the sidewalk down below you know, and so, but once again it's kind of consistent with what we.

S

Believe to be the real cause, which is the sun coming up every day, warming, it up and sun, going back down and cooling back.

S

Down you know on the east sides, you really don't have that. You know the the the the fluctuation each and every day.

S

To the extent you do on the south side, you know the the damage that we see.

S

Around the scuppers is, is normal splash and that splash is.

S

Present at almost any location where there's available water sources.

S

If the masonry is exposed to freezing conditions, you know you can walk down the street and see a lot of that exact, same damage right down near.

S

The sidewalk it's just the water hitting the sidewalk and splashing back up. You know, that's just the cause. The the.

S

The the really accelerated deterioration in.

S

My opinion is: when the sun warms it up and then it cools down, I mean just it's exposed to you know: 100 freeze, thaw cycles, every.

S

Winter, as opposed to just the 10 or 12 freeze,.

S

Thaw cycles that some of the other sides of the building are exposed to. Thank you, john uh chris. You have a.

E

Question, oh you're, muted. Let me unmute you.

E

I mute yourself there you go, no you're, still muted.

G

Okay, am I unmuted yes, okay, I'd ask. Is there a chance that there's.

G

Humidity, transferring from inside the building.

G

Into the brick, because if that's the case.

G

Then you are compounding the problem if you seal that.

G

Exterior so sometimes I know it happens in houses, I'm not enough of.

G

An expert, but I know humidity, is tricky, and so it's a kind of.

G

A two-part question: are you 100 sure it's not transferring from the.

G

Inside because, obviously the sun and the humidity that.

G

Makes sense but where's the humidity coming from and.

G

Part two: would it make sense to do a test area, because it could be a catastrophic mistake.

G

If the humidity is coming from the inside.

S

Well, as far as and here again, I suppose, hey tests are always fine with.

S

Me but as far as you know, you can visually.

S

Look at the brick and see how porous it is, and so, in my opinion, there's no question the fact that it is absorbing any kind.

S

Of rain or any kind of free moisture, any kind of you know water is being soaked right up. It has a visibly.

S

Porous surface okay. As far as.

S

I don't, I don't recall, seeing a tremendous amount of effervescence.

S

On the outside of the building, okay, whenever there's too much moisture on.

S

The inside of the building and it wicks its way through and the warm sun evaporates it away. I mean that's: what causes effervescence.

S

Deposits on the outside of buildings- okay, we don't really see that you know there's probably a.

S

Really well-functioning hvac system inside the.

S

In city hall- and so you know as far as there'll be some.

S

You know dew point problems or some kind of issues with some.

S

Build up of moisture, I'm going to guess that the hvac.

S

System is must be sufficient because we never really see a lot of.

S

Any moisture on windows or steam, or you know, are not gonna, say steam, but.

S

You know the windows don't fog up, and so I guess in absence of any kind of.

S

Evidence of moisture coming from inside out, you know we see a lot of evidence or.

S

At least the the potential for absorption.

S

In the porous faces of the brick, and so because we saw.

S

So much porosity in the brick, it just seems like the obvious.

S

I

I had a quick question.

I

This is jenny. I have a quick question, go for it.

I

I

All right how to phrase this, you, I'm yeah, I'm hearing that the.

I

Scaffolding is still up and that you, just like punted and sealed.

I

The windows and and did a lot of work on that side.

I

So but we haven't gone through another winter again to.

I

See if that actually fixed the problem is that what I'm hearing or.

I

Was it done last year and we know this winter, it didn't fix the problem.

S

Well, here again, it was, it was kind of.

S

Visibly obvious that the mortar was missing in several joints.

S

It's also visibly obvious that the face the the smooth shiny, hard water.

S

Repellent face has totally been weathered away and.

S

So we certainly have, I see I guess I didn't.

S

Realize that already all the work been done, yeah, okay, hey! So now all the tuck points done.

S

Sure the mortar joints are back up to 100, but it's visibly obvious.

S

That the brick faces are terribly porous and so sure we can let it go through.

S

Another winter I know what's going to happen, you know I.

S

I guess there's no reason for I guess I shouldn't have said it in that manner. There is no reason for me to to suspect.

S

That the mere replacement of the mortar would.

S

Fix the problem, it would mitigate the amount of water.

S

That was coming through the very open mortar joints, but it would do nothing to mitigate the water that I'm sure is being absorbed by the very porous.

S

Faces of the brick.

E

Any other questions, thoughts, comments come in all right. Chris.

G

I'd feel safest if we did a test sample spot, even if it's a fairly large sample.

G

But because if it is a mistake and it you have more spalling after sealing.

G

It's too late and I could be completely wrong- and I probably am but.

G

That's that possibility that it isn't.

G

uh Exactly from the absorption from the exterior there's.

G

Clearly, moisture finding its way, um so I would be comfortable with a with.

G

A sample, but I think it's a safe way to go.

S

I definitely in irrigate, like I mentioned before, hey, isn't it.

S

It's a structural engineer, I'm always cool with testing; okay, as opposed to.

S

Just gosh just letting it happen and being.

S

Curious here's the deal, though I don't know.

S

That and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but let's just say we did.

S

Half of the south face: well, it's going to take us 50 years.

S

Well, not 50, but it's going to take. I I don't know how we would immediately.

S

Know I mean, how would we know if the tests were successful.

S

You know I I guess it's, it seems intuitively obvious to me.

S

That, when you have incredibly porous materials.

S

They're going to absorb water and.

S

Increase the likelihood of freeze thaw, leading to some more deterioration, okay,.

G

I just remember seeing a chimney that just exploded.

G

In in that kind of condition- and it was a matter of humidity inside the chimney.

G

And it was an extreme chimney necessarily.

S

I guess a chimney very likely wouldn't have operable hvac.

S

Equipment for the sole purpose of removing humidity ambient humidity from.

S

The engine it had moisture coming from inside well.

S

S

You know, I think I have noticed a good deal of.

S

Effervescence on the inside of city hall, brick, particularly in the lobby area,.

S

Particularly above these windows matter of fact, I think we observed that.

S

When we were doing some of our inspections, okay, once again, the.

S

Effervescence is on the inside, which is totally consistent with a very.

S

Porous wall a very consistent with hvac, you know.

S

It's kind of interesting to me whenever you have really good dehumidification equipment on a day like today, well it'll suck the.

S

Moisture right through the wall I mean from the outside to the inside I mean that is so obvious and it's happened so many times. That's why the.

S

Paint peels off the wall of the interior of like say the buzz kirk chumley before.

S

They really did the masonry sealers on the outside of that building. You know there was like you know. I guess I should I shouldn't have used that as an example. I I was just involved in that personally and so, but regardless one of the things I.

S

Always see is effervescence on the inside of.

S

Buildings when there is no.

S

Barrier to moisture anywhere between the outside and the inside.

S

And so we saw that at city hall, so that kind of leads me to believe that.

S

It's a water from the outside problem: okay,.

S

Number two: we don't see any effervescence on the.

S

Outside of the building, necessarily, that would be what would be expected if.

S

You have too much moisture on the inside okay.

S

We don't see any steam or condensate buildup on the inside of the windows.

S

Once again would lead us to believe that there's not a moisture problem on the inside okay, because we'll and we know we have hvac equipment that is operating okay. We have visibly seen the.

S

Porosity of the brick, if we were all standing there on the man left this.

S

Would be so much easier of a uh explanation because it's.

S

It's intuitively obvious to the casual observer.

S

I mean it is a porous surface. There is no question, you can see the little.

S

Pinholes- and so you know I, I guess I can't imagine that we could.

S

By by mere application of a sealer, I can't imagine how we could possibly.

S

Accelerate accidentally accelerate deterioration.

S

It can only help, I can't imagine it could hurt. It certainly can't make it.

S

Worse, it's accelerating it's getting worse!

S

It's going fast! If we don't do something soon, we're really going to be sorry.

E

So I I think you know my my view of this is the best case.

E

How this should typically play out is, uh you know somebody would or whoever owns.

E

The property would pay a independent expert to.

E

Examine the masonry and- and they would come up.

E

With a list of issues and solutions, and then the city.

E

Would look to bid out that work to fix those issues? I think kind of what.

E

Happened here is uh you know we want to do some tug.

E

Pointing and and fix some structural issues above the window and then the masonry sealer seemed to be kind of an afterthought. Oh.

E

Hey we need this too, and I thought I I don't want to.

S

Interrupt but you hired me specifically as a structural engineer, to make.

S

Recommendations on the repairs of the masonry on the building- and we did so we identified the areas that we felt needed to be tuck, pointed.

S

We identified the areas that needed to have their uh the angle lenders replaced.

S

And we identified the areas of the building that needed to have sealer applied to it period. Okay, so.

E

um So the recommendation of the I guess- umphris masonry, who's doing this.

E

Work is to do those three options.

E

You know and then uh I have one quick question.

B

Is how much of the face the south side is spalding.

B

What percentage.

R

uh We haven't actually measured the percentage of brick that has spalled off.

R

What we went by is observations of brick chips at the base of the wall.

R

At the end of the winters and the south side.

R

You know is literally littered with with chips of brick.

S

To answer your question there and.

S

The bricks I mean it's not all like they are.

S

I they were not totally homogenous when they were produced.

S

Okay, so therefore there are slightly different colored units which have.

S

Slightly subtly different material compositions.

S

And so forth, okay, so the spalling is not localized to one.

S

Small area, like we saw on the east side or right around the scuppers, the spalling is just it's it's totally. I.

S

Would say, ran it's as random as the material.

S

Properties of the bricks themselves, I mean you know how okay we're gonna stand.

S

At the wall, we're gonna see some that are light red. Some are dark.

S

Red some are iron spots, some are bay, some are whatever and I'm.

S

Exaggerating, I'm hyperbolizing the differences in color, but there are.

S

Subtle color differences right; okay, that implies subtle material.

S

Property differences, those subtle material property difference- has resulted in some spalling and some not so.

S

As far as how many, if we counted a a patch of a hundred bricks,.

S

40 have spawned, but it's just a total just a random. I mean just.

S

It's not all localized together, it's it's scattered.

S

Very randomly you know across the face of the wall, but you know.

S

A lot it's it's a height that the percentage is high; okay, the ones that.

S

Haven't spalled are, are still porous, I mean they've all.

S

Been exposed to weathering okay, some the weathering just due to the.

S

Nature of the unit itself weathered more more aggressively, and so.

S

The the faster they lost their face, the more likely they were to absorb water.

S

Be exposed to freeze thaw cycles and spall off a little chunk.

S

Or a little chip- and so you know, the ones that haven't spalled are ready to.

S

You know and the ones that aren't quite ready to or.

S

Getting pretty close to being ready to, and so it's just.

S

You know they've just all gotten to the point where you know the.

S

The shiny, hard water repellent face is gone from all of them.

S

Some are worse than others.

R

So I want to apologize for our audio problems, we're doing it this. My house.

R

And I didn't realize john was allergic to my cat, so we had to move out on the front porch and we've got some noise issues. Sorry.

R

About that one, more quick question: now that we've.

B

All kind of been totally tight planned again.

B

Well, that won't completely stop our problem.

B

The tech brain isn't isn't going to stop the bird from spawning.

B

So is that I'm getting that.

R

Yeah, I guess I'm sorry, I didn't hear the whole thing.

S

You're right, the tuck point won't stop the brick from spalling at all.

S

No okay, but it does stop a significant amount of water.

S

From entering the wall itself, getting soaked down in all the.

S

The the middle of the wall, if you will- and I mean.

S

That, in and of itself that causes problems, I mean that that that will lead.

S

To premature deterioration in and of itself.

S

So it was it, I guess on one hand, it would be kind of.

S

Pointless to do one without the other, if we tried to not tuck point, but yet.

S

Just apply a sealer, well, the sealer isn't capable of.

S

Filling up plugging up all the holes of all the missing mortar.

S

So merely a sealer yeah, a sealer may.

S

Reduce the porosity of the brick, but a sealer in and of itself would not.

S

Cut down the amount of water that comes in the wall, okay,.

S

And- and I guess the flip side of that is gosh the best.

S

Tuck point the best: 100 grind out tuck point job.

S

Would prevent the water that was getting in through the missing pieces of mortar.

S

But it really wouldn't do anything to address the issue of the bricks falling.

S

So it's kind of really, in my opinion, you're really wasting your time. If you don't do both all right. Thank you. Ernesto do. You have.

B

L

No comments, thank you and uh chris. Are you getting additional comments.

G

I'd hate to be wrong, but I hear an expert really clearly saying.

G

What he's what he sees, I want to hear what.

G

What conor thought the national trust had looked up on.

G

What was their report on this kind of thing?.

E

uh When you read guidance on applying uh this water sealant to masonry.

E

Generally, it's they advise to not do it unless.

E

You've identified a specific problem that water sealant will.

E

Address um I didn't know that the umphras masonry had identified.

E

That the brick was very porous and the only way you could prevent you know this freeze, thaw spalling was to coat.

E

The brick with the water sealant, I wasn't aware that was.

E

The problem um you know now, we've heard it. I think.

E

You can take that into consideration when I reached out to the professional.

E

Community, I didn't provide the assessment that umphris has provided.

E

Us or mr crane provided us today, so they basically said check for these.

E

Other things first before you go slap, some sealant on a brick building.

E

And you know, I think what crane mr crane is saying.

E

Is that you know it's not efflorescence? It's not these. uh You know internal.

E

Issues of the building that, in his professional opinion, it's it's.

E

Caused from external you know, water, water, coming in soaking.

E

Into the brick, um so you know, I think you can take that.

E

For what it is, however, um I I don't know, mr crane's.

E

uh You know what we really. We really need a historic masonry expert that.

E

That's who should have been consulted for this building? You know this is city.

E

Hall, this is kind of a really a focal point of historic.

E

Preservation in bloomington- and you know maybe it'd- be worth getting.

E

Another opinion before putting something like.

E

Sealer, where we really don't know the side effects and.

E

uh You know putting it on the brick, that's just an idea.

S

Hey no problem, I'm sure there are people who are more knowledgeable than myself.

S

You know now, just a is a little caveat here. Just to give you a little more background. Hey, I'm usually not in favor of sealers.

S

You know we, and here again we work primarily with the limestone industry. I'm not going to kid. You well there's just a lot more limestone in this area than our brick, and so that's.

S

Just the nature of our work, and so the majority of the time I will.

S

Actually, seriously dissuade anybody from applying a sealer to limestone well and almost any masonry, because most.

S

The time it does more harm than good okay, the the the out of the factory.

S

And I realize it's it's, you know it's not a technical word, but the shiny.

S

Hard surface is really the the primary line of defense against any kind of.

S

Weathering right, and so, if there's any kind of of a.

S

Surface intact, no sealers do bad things. Okay, they do.

S

Trap moisture in they do have the propensity to cause some other.

S

Issues you know like discoloration, particularly on limestone.

S

And, and and for that you know, I'm always, you know really kind of hyper sensitive.

S

To anybody mentioning sealers, hey, I don't try to use those in my. You know in my own place because gosh once you start it you've.

S

Always got to do it, you know if it weathers, you know you'll never get it applied. In the same, you know even.

S

Fashion, where it'll always be a visual subtraction from what you're looking at.

S

I get all that boy in this case, though, you know when it.

S

Gets to a point when, when the stone gets so old and so porous.

S

I mean you've really just you have no other choice and so that that's kind of how I see it on this one is you know I just don't see you know I I. I totally appreciate the significance of.

S

You know city hall and and what a cool building yeah I don't want to see it deteriorating, go away and it's irreplaceable. I get that you.

S

Know how could you so that's even more, why it's so and it.

S

Just seems to me to be so logical and so obvious.

S

Of a choice to to recommend some sort of a sealer.

S

You know, and- and it's just because of I I just feel if you guys had, and I.

S

Encourage you to walk up and look it's more pronounced.

S

The higher I mean we were up on the man left, but the but the the the the situations similar down low, just look.

S

And see how poorest the brick are it's just it is, it is just visually.

S

Obvious, is it a breathable sealant? Yes, it is so humidity could come.

G

From inside and go out yes, it will allow water vapor to come.

R

Out it's kind of gore-tex fabric it'll allow water vapor to come out, but.

R

It won't allow water droplets to enter yeah. That sounds sensible.

B

Okay, any more thoughts or comments.

S

Anything else for me, I'd just be repeating myself.

B

All right, so we will allow them to go ahead.

E

Yeah, it sounds like uh there's: no real opposition or concern of putting the.

E

Sealer on on city hall, I want to thank connor for bringing this.

G

Up? Yes, no problem. Okay, thank you guys.

B

All your help tonight, thank you all right. uh We have one more item on.

B

Our agenda- um and I think, we'll probably make this.

B

A fairly quick one yeah, so I just wanted to bring it to.

E

Everybody's attention that the 2020 uh national alliance and.

E

Preservation commission's forum is usually a big conference. They.

E

Hold it once every two years, what's going to be in tacoma, it's now.

C

Going to be virtual, uh which makes it really accessible to.

E

Us so no one here is going to go to tacoma, um but these are really there's some really great.

E

Items of discussion that are and presenters and panels.

E

About preservation, I think, are very relevant to our commission and our.

E

Circumstances in bloomington um it's a hundred dollars uh to.

E

Attend um there are scholarships available. I send everybody a link.

E

uh Before the meeting started so check your email, you can apply for the scholarship to, since we are a certified local government. We have access to those scholarships, so you can essentially go for free and you can just you know, tune in and tune out and attend whatever session you need to, or you know whatever. So it's really flexible and I don't see any reason why.

E

uh You guys can't take this opportunity to learn a bit more about.

E

His sort of preservation and some of the issues uh in this field.

E

uh So I'd highly encourage you guys uh to.

E

At least apply for a scholarship if you can't get one or you're denied.

E

You know tell me what topic you want to watch and I'll be at city hall streaming.

E

Most of it all day, long in this lemon room or we can move over to the.

E

Mccloskey room: if there's five of us, you know just. I really encourage.

E

Everybody to to attend that if they can at least one or two sessions they find of interest, it takes five minutes to sign up. I.

B

Haven't heard back yet, but I did ask for the.

B

Baby part two mission, so yeah, I think I I think that probably.

B

Everybody who were to sign up for will probably get in.

B

Without having to pay for the for the program- and it does look very.

B

Interesting, I don't know if, at the back of our package, connor has.

B

Included uh the different stuff that's going to be taking place um during this conference, so it looks.

B

Pretty cool so take a look at that. You know and.

E

Maybe it'll encourage you to join, that's all I have there.

E

I knew so that's it.

B

uh We don't have an old business, thank goodness uh any questions or comments.

B

D

I just want to say thank you to everybody, I'm glad everybody is.

D

Very willing to share views that don't necessarily agree with everybody else.

D

Quick comment for you yeah. I was just gonna. Let folks know this is my last.

T

Meeting in a hand capacity, so I uh have enjoyed sitting back most.

T

Of the time, the last few years so keep up the good work, everyone is there. What you're going on today.

T

I'm going to iu so I'll, be teaching full-time at the business school.

G

Congratulations: congratulations! Congrats! We're going to miss you yep! Absolutely.

G

We've, given you stories to tell.

B

All right, we don't have any public comments. Do we.

B

Hearing none, no announcements. So let's turn thanks everyone. Thank you. Everyone.

L

Thanks everyone proud to be on this group.

B

Thanks everybody appreciate.

A

A