City of Bloomington, Indiana Plan Commission, 13 Apr 2020

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From YouTube: Bloomington Plan Commission, April 13, 2020

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meeting packet: https://bloomington.in.gov/onboard/meetingFiles/download?meetingFile_id=5722

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Let me call to order this meeting of the city of bloomington plant commission for.

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April 13th 2020: this is not a standard meeting. This is going to be a little bit.

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Different and so I just beg for a little bit of patience with everyone.

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Particularly those who may be joining us from the public, this is going to be.

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Different every step of the way, but we're going to do our best to make sure.

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That we keep it orderly and then we give everyone a chance to be heard. As we.

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Wanted any any other public meeting. So if the first thing I want to make sure.

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Everyone understands is, is how you can raise your hand. Most of us are not.

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Sharing video here, but at the bottom of your zoom screen there should be a.

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Little in the bottom menu, you should see a series of options, one of them that.

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Shows the participants. It looks like right now: there's 22 participants. If you.

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Click that button you get a list of the participants and at the bottom of that.

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Window, you know there's a little button if three buttons invite mutiny and then.

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One this is raised hand. So there's going to be a few points during the meeting.

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Where we're going to ask for people to raise their hand, if you click that raise.

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Hand button: that's how jackie will know to unmute you so so, when we go to two.

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Comments or questions from commissioners, if you have a comment or a question.

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Raise your hand if you're a member of the public when we get to the point in.

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The meeting where we we ask for public comment: you can click that button to.

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Raise your hand and indicate you'd like to give comment we'll be doing. There's.

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Two ways to comment: one is if you're here in the in the meeting as I just.

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Mentioned you raise your hand and speak directly. The other is we're also.

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Streaming live on facebook, and so we'll also be going to taking.

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Public comments from that live feed on facebook, so jackie will will read any.

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Comments that are that are made on facebook when we get to the public.

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Comment section as well so with that being said, any any questions just about.

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That logistically before we kick things off yeah, so just raise your hand all.

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Right great: well, typically, we start with the roll.

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Call I'm not sure if that's entirely necessary, since we've got everyone's the.

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Rule was kind of off on the screen already, but just maybe, for the sake of.

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Normalcy, jackie, you do want to do a roll call yeah. Let me go ahead and unmute des.

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Here and then desiree can you go ahead and give me just a second sure: everybody.

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Hear me: okay, yes, yeah you're, good, okay, dad go ahead! All right! Burma, dear kate,.

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Your herrera yeah kenzi sean qilin, sambar deer, saint john here whistler.

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Here all right, okay, great, give me just one sec.

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Okay, brad go ahead. All right, we do have some minutes to be approved. We have.

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Minutes from the march 2020 meeting, are there any questions or corrections to.

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Those minutes from commissioners all right. If not, then I think we would.

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Entertain a motion to approve those minutes motion to approve the march.

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Minutes: okay, yeah motion in a second.

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Okay: okay, dad go ahead all right and things.

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Are just a little different, so I want to confirm that was kinsey from ocean and.

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Burrell, who second, yes, correct, great all right, whistler, yes, sandburg.

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Yes say: john: yes, okay, yes, yes, okay, let's move on then to reports, resolutions and.

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Communications, hmm great after you, jackie.

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Yep, so we have today, for you, an update on the administrative manual. Can.

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Everybody hear me: okay. Okay, we have completed a draft of the administrative.

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Manual, which is required for the adoption of the conversion map, so that.

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Is now located on the you do website in the february to may section the link to.

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That document, which was emailed to you guys just a little while ago of an hour.

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And a half ago or so- and this is not a document that this body needs to.

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Vote on, but it is a companion document to the you do so we wanted to make sure.

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That you got to see it and announced here at the meeting where it is located.

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The it will go to council and again they actually also won't be officially voting.

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On adoption of it, but in the draft do do it, there was a requirement that it be.

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Completed by the time they vote on the conversion map, so basically what it is.

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Is guidelines for how to file petitions and how our boards and commissions run.

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And other specifications, and things like that that maybe don't necessarily need.

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To be in the actual you do and but neat, but need to be available for those who.

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Are going to be doing development in town, so that is available online and if.

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You all have any questions you can feel free to. Let us know about that. That's.

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All I've got. Thank you. Many other reports of.

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Resolutions or communications from other other staff nevermind. No any reports.

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From other commissioners, okay, well, then, we will move on. We have on the agenda.

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Tonight we've got the consent agenda and then two petitions. So let's, let's start.

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With the consent agenda, there's only one item on the consent agenda tonight.

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That's uv 0, 8, 2 0. This is a bloomington housing authority request.

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For use of variance to allow a child daycare center and three multifamily.

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Residential units in a four thousand nine hundred seventy square foot.

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Building at one zero, two zero north and one rose street.

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Is there anyone any commissioner that would like to see that removed from the.

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Consent agenda and receive a full hearing.

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Okay, seeing none is there anyone from the public who would like to comment on.

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The consent agenda, jackie, will you assuming you'll? Let me know if anyone.

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From the facebook feed- yes, let me just verify that real fast, but no, I don't see.

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Anything just a second.

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To make sure I have it loaded, nope, nothing.

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Any final comment or discussion before or motion on the consent agenda, all.

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Motion to approve item uv, zero, eight, two: zero, the bloomington housing authority.

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At 4:00 consent agenda approval all right. We have a motion in a second to.

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Approve the consent agenda: let's call the roll.

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Sean kweli, yes say: john, yes, samberg, yes, borel, yes, whistler, yes, kenzie! Yes,.

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Herrera, yes, okay, okay, so the consent agenda is a permanent. We now have two.

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Petitions for hearing you v 0 6, 2 0 in s, p, 2, 0, 7, 20, so first up we're.

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Gonna uv 0, 6, 20, bobby j stags requests for use, variance to allow for.

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Expansion of a multi-family use in the residential single-family zoning.

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District at 141 for west arlington road- and we have the case manager keegan.

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Gulick present great thanks. Take egon I'm gonna mute.

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Everybody and then I'll turn you back on just a sec: okay, key and donut all right.

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Thank you. So let me just get my powerpoint here. Ok,.

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So, like I said, this is for case number uv, 206 24, the property located at.

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14-14 west arlington road, the petitioners requesting a use variance to.

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Allow for the expansion of a multi-family use and the residential single-family zoning districts. This request would require a recommendation.

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Based on the comprehensive plan to the board of zoning appeals, so here's just.

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The overview of the property, approximately 2.5, seven acres, currently.

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Zoned residential single-family and just to clarify, oh sorry, guys just to clarify.

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It's that one in the middle there with the three units on it.

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It's currently zoned residential single-family, the comp plan designated.

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His neighborhood residential, the existing land use on the properties will.

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Family and proposed as expanding the multifamily use the surrounding land.

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Uses our single family to the north and west multifamily to the east and.

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Single-Family and multi-family to the south, the petitioner, like I already said.

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Is requesting the expansion of the multifamily use, and here is the site.

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Plan for what they are requesting, they are proposing to construct a 32 foot by.

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52, if attached garage connected to one of the single-family residences, the.

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Garage would be for the stated purpose of parking and storage the you neo.

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Classifies this use of multifamily because of multiple units on the parcel.

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And this property is lawful non-conforming. As a result, multifamily.

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Is not a permitted use and there are presidential single-family zoning.

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District and therefore needs a use variance from the board of zoning.

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Appeals to allow for the expansion of a non-conforming use, strict application of.

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The you do would allow this property to continue as it is as a lawful.

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Non-Conforming use and site, but would prohibit the desired addition to the.

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Property today, one adjacent property owner has contacted the planning and.

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Transportation department to voice their opposition to the varying events on to.

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The comprehensive plan for the neighborhood residential zoning district.

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The intent of this district is to protect the integrity and homogeneity of.

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Existing neighborhoods, while also allowing for low intensity development.

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For guidance on land use approvals in this district, the comp plan states new.

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And redevelopment activity for this district is mostly limited to remodeling.

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Existing or constructing new single-family residences, this petition.

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Involves the expansion of the multifamily use, which would be in.

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Conflict with the goals of the comprehensive plan, it also goes on to.

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State that for larger tracts of land single-family on the attached.

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Single-Family and annual to family uses may be appropriate.

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This property is multi-family because it has three single-family residences on a.

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Single lot, the size of the law is not out of character with other.

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Single-Family uses in the area, while the site can continue to exist as.

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Multifamily expanding the use would not be.

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Consistent with the goals of the neighborhood residential district for.

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Lawful non-conforming uses the you do, does provide several provisions on.

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Lawful non-conforming uses insights and for guidance for the plan. Commission.

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Importing appeals staff believes that the petitioners proposal does not meet.

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The requirements of the you do the first one.

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It addresses uses rendered non-conforming, which is what this use.

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Would be I'll just go over it? Real quick when I use was lawfully existing as a.

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Permitted use on the effective date of the you do, and this video or any amended.

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There to no longer classify such as permitted use in the zoning district.

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That is located in uses shall be deemed waffle, non-conforming and subject the.

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Provisions under chapter 2808, non-conforming lot sites, structures and.

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Uses, and it goes on in that chapter to say that a lawful non-conforming use.

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Shall not be intensified, expanded and larged extended or relocated to another.

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Portion of the lot- and so that's the part of the you do that the proposal.

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Would be not consistent with, in addition to that, since it's also a non-conforming.

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Site, expanding the site would trigger limited compliance with the you do so.

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They would have to bring it closer to compliance with the you do if they use.

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Variance were to be granted, so they don't have to meet the following.

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Conditions they would have to pave any substandard parking services. Striping of.

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Those parking surfaces, pedestrian facilities, so they would have to build a.

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Five foot wide sidewalk along west arlington road, and there would also be.

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Landscaping requirements that would be based on the number of parking spaces as.

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Well, as in size, the parcel and that's something that the petitioner could work.

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With staff to make a landscape plans before so, the department finds the.

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Proposed use does interfere with the intents of the comprehensive plan and.

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The you do, while at one time the site may have been permitted to ensure.

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Three separate units on one line- changes of the zoning code over time has.

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Rendered they used to be a lawful non-conforming use, as it is currently.

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Zoned residential single-family so since the site is considered to be a lawful.

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Non-Conforming use it can't exist as such in perpetuity, but, however, the.

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Proposed addition would expand a lawful non-conforming use, which is prohibited.

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By the udl, while a use variants were allowed for the expansion, the request is.

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Not going to be consistent with the goals of the comprehensive plan, so the.

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Department recommends of the planning commission forwards, petition you via six.

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Dash 22, the board of zoning appeals with a recommendation for denial, and I can.

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Take any questions as well. Thank you great thanks. Keon we're gonna wait just.

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A second here, the petitioner for this petition is.

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Having a hard time, she can't hear so um she has messaged me. Obviously she knows.

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What's happening with the petition, but I want to check with mr. rooker here on.

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What we need to do hey mike, are you there. I am yes hi, um okay, so I guess.

B

What would the suggestion be so hold on? Let's see, we've done, they are on, they.

B

Can see, but they can't hear anything and she can't figure out why? Okay, so I am.

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Not an it specialist or I know sorry, so I probably can't figure out what.

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Precisely is happening, the fir computer. I know that we've had a couple of.

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Situations like this before and we've had some pretty. I don't know, I'm.

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Assuming a lot of us have done zoom meetings, we've done some things where.

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Somebody has called someone's cell phone and talked through the cell phone. That's.

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Pretty it's not an ideal situation at all. Do we have a deer, unmuted, brad yeah.

B

Darlene, you have a dialing number yeah. I tried to hold on.

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Yeah I tried to yes give her instructions on how to find the specific.

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Dialing number at the bottom for her account, but she can't find it well then,.

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We can just read it yeah. Let me give her the one from the hold on okay yeah, no.

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She cannot so I'm just messaging her I'll, send her.

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One of these numbers and see if she can call in sorry about this just a second.

B

No words- and this is jackie staggs- that yeah connect with here. Okay, and I can.

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See that jackie's here yeah she is here. She just can't hear anything.

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And she's unmuted right, so we can know she had. I don't yeah, I'm sorry. She does.

B

Not have she doesn't have a mic, I don't think yeah. I think the best option would.

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Be if she could maybe call in that would probably be the best bet right.

B

Okay, would you like to move on to the next and come back to this? Let me just.

A

Do you have the number handy I can yeah, I sent it to her. Okay, I messaged.

B

Victoria, do you mind just reading it out loud, jackie, just in case anyone is gonna.

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Have a problem yeah just a second, it's one: nine to nine to zero five, six zero.

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Nine, nine and then the this meeting. The id is three to four one. Four, seven, eight.

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Eight three hold on yeah.

B

Okay, beth go ahead, so I did have a couple of questions, but I wasn't sure.

G

Now are we spawning consideration of this, and so I.

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Think maybe we should wait until we can confirm whether or not she can get in. I.

B

Mean that would be mike, do you think I mean I feel like that would be prudent.

B

But yeah I want to make sure that we have a chance to hear from the.

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Participants for really questions. One thing I was gonna suggest jackie. Are you.

B

There, let's see, I got a new person, but now they're gone, let's hold on huh okay.

B

We got joined by furlow wealth management group, but it won't. Let me.

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Unmute it so they must have muted themselves. Okay. Well, I sent her the.

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Information- and I haven't heard back yet so do you want to brad? Do you want to.

B

Wait a minute or do you want to let's, let's give one more minute here and.

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She's unable to join, then what we can do is just move on to the next item. On the.

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Agenda and come back, I hate so hard. I have to wait for the entire.

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Deliberation but I think somebody's gonna we waiting, no matter how we.

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Proceed here, so let's write another one. Here we do have someone join yep, I'm.

B

Trying to help you out, okay, I think calling number works. He needs to hit the.

B

Town sign again because it's asking for a person id and if you just do pound.

H

Town that should get her through okay hold on just a sec there's another one.

B

Jackie is that you we're here. Can you hear us? Yes, we can okay and thank you so.

B

Much sorry for that! No thank you. Sorry! We've been trying, oh you're, fine. I.

B

Know, sorry, okay, hey keegan, can you yes, I think it would be.

B

Beneficial, if no one minds, if keegan just, does a brief overview again so that.

B

They can understand what he has said to you all before we move on to questions.

B

Is that, okay, with everyone.

A

Okay, I'm gonna mute everybody and then unmute keegan just a second okay keegan.

B

An abridged version would be great, please, yes, let me just go back yeah.

B

Sorry about that, thank you no worries, okay, yeah, so just to briefly touched on.

E

Go over this again, this is the property. Here's the overview of the property.

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Zones, residential single-family, it is currently a multifamily use, they're.

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Proposing to expand the multifamily use multifamily is not permitted use in the.

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Residential single-family zoning district, hence the need for the use.

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Variance here's their site plan that they submitted to us this garage.

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Right here I don't know if you can see my mouse, but that is what they're.

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Proposing for the stated use of parking and storage for the comprehensive plan.

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This area is designated as neighborhood residential which, on the screen, you can.

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See basically, our takeaways from the neighborhood residential district. We.

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Found that the request is not consistent with the goals of the comprehensive plan.

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And in addition to that, there was also the issue with the you do and lawful.

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Non-Conforming uses the you do, prohibits expansion of lawful non-conforming uses.

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Which is why we needed the use variance and, in addition to being a.

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Non-Conforming use, it is also a non-conforming site, so if they use.

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Variance was granted, they would have to come in to limited compliance with the.

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You do, and that would include these following conditions paving of parking.

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Surfaces striping having a sidewalk along arlington road and also.

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Landscaping requirements which would be based on the number of parking spaces as.

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Well, as like the size of the lot and etc, so since the petition, the you do would.

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Allow this property to continue as it is as a lawful non-conforming use, but it.

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Does prohibit the expansion of non-conforming uses in addition to that.

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We also found that the request was not consistent with the goals of the.

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Comprehensive plan so today, south of those findings, staff.

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Recommends that the commission forward no petition, you need a she or six dash.

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22, the board of zoning appeals with a recommendation for denial.

E

And that's, I think I covered everything, but I can also answer questions great.

A

Thank you so now we will move on to petitioner for their own presentation, so.

A

Jackie thank you for joining us. Would you anything that you would like.

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To add: okay, what up? Okay? Can you hear me now? Yes, we.

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Can hello, okay? This is jackie. I am joe staggs and I are the owners of this.

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Property- and I guess I just can't understand- we've lived here for 40 years.

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And we, I am 72 he's 74. I have a lot of physical issues. You know I've had open.

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Heart surgery bypass a lot of different things and I'm having a hard time.

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Walking and getting out to put my car, you know, do anything with my car and.

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That's why we were wanting something where we can put our cars and our.

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Lawnmowers and different things inside of something so that it will be easier.

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For us, as it is now it's getting harder and harder, and I guess I just can't.

I

Understand what is the problem with that? You know you're, putting a it's more of a.

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Burden on us as we get older and older, can you answer me? You know, I know all.

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The rules and everything, but I just don't understand why this is not being.

I

Granted I, with everything that you're saying we agreed to do those things, but.

I

You're still telling us you're going to deny ask for a denial. Can you give me.

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Any more information well, hopefully, as we get into some questions here, we'll.

A

Get some more context for you. I think, if you don't have anything else more to add.

A

At this point, we will move to questions from commissioners for staff over four.

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Of the petitioner and and hopefully will would be able to.

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And get a little more information here. Are there any commissioners that have a.

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Question that they'd like to ask just click that and button. If you do yep it.

B

Looks like beth is up, firstly, make sure I unmute er keeps changing on me just a.

B

Sec, hmm okay, beth! You should be in that indigo. Thank you. So a quick question for.

G

Mention that there was, I didn't see anything in the package, explain what the.

G

Nature of the opposition was yeah, it was, they didn't say they didn't give a name.

E

But it was someone they came into the planning department because they had.

E

Received the notice- and so they just expressed that you know they didn't see.

E

Why that this was needed basically- and you know they didn't- give a much more.

E

Detail than that, but that was their you know about the extent of their you know.

E

Opposition- I don't know if jackie, if you had anything to add to that it was just.

E

Someone that had come into the office yeah- I don't think so. Basically, so you.

B

Know we send letters within 300 feet of the petition site, and so this person was.

B

A property owner within that boundary and wanted to come in and say that they.

B

Didn't think that the property should be expanded more, and that was basically the.

B

Gist of their comments, I'm sorry, I didn't know if I just cut off someone.

G

Else no keep going okay. So if this were a.

G

Single home existing on this property and the other two buildings weren't on.

G

It would there be any issue with being able to build this garage. I don't.

E

Believe so amy and jackie- maybe you can clarify this, but I.

E

My understanding is that if this was, you know just one home on one lot, I don't.

E

Think there would be an issue, but I guess I would have to yes, my clan, but.

E

Yeah right so it would depend on the size of the lot. It's a fairly.

B

Substantial addition, it's about the size of a four car garage, I believe, I'm not.

B

Positive initially, they requested in a detached.

B

Structure and that they would not have been allowed to do, even if it was single.

B

Because it was too large so then they proposed to attach it, and so depending.

B

On the size of the surrounding a lot- and you know, impervious surface coverage.

B

They would be able to do in addition, just I'm not sure if they would be able.

B

To do one of this size intentionally depending yeah, I don't know what, from.

G

The tichenor standpoint: that's something size-wise it they, you know able to were.

G

Willing to continue when I went through this, I did it did sort of strike me a.

G

Little bit as a technical thing, I was trying to figure out what the.

G

Substantive concern would be given the surrounding nature of operating, which.

G

Includes some multi residential and just thinking that, if this was the kind of.

G

Thing I'd not size, but just the fact of being able to build onto that home a.

G

Garage sure I was trying to get a feel for whether there's a real substantive.

G

Concern generated help me out there sure, so I think the general I like, even if.

B

You don't mind, I think the general idea is that this is a non-conforming use.

B

There's more than one residential unit on this lot, it's not zoned for that. It.

B

Can go it so it's lawful non-conforming it can keep going on in that way. In.

B

Perpetuity they can do regular mae and there's nothing stopping them from.

B

From that, but to expand and further kind of legitimize, this use that we as the.

B

Community have identified as something we don't want in this area is something.

B

That we try to avoid so the comprehensive plan designation.

B

Here is also single-family: there's not an intention to intensify residential.

B

Units along this part of arlington, so we run into you, know weighing whether or.

B

Not it, you know it might kind of seem like it's not it's a little bit.

B

Inconsequential to let these let a house, you know, have a garage, that's pretty.

B

Standard but it's really more about intensifying and expanding a use that we.

B

Have very recently said, we're not sure is appropriate now or into the future. So.

B

That's kind of where we came down on the denial recommendation proving this. We.

G

Not do anything for any kind of future desire to expand anything else, though,.

G

Right, this is a standalone request in that regard.

G

Yes, okay, thank you. Yes, I think jillian europe next is that okay, brad yeah I'll.

A

Just let you run with it: okay, okay, jillian you're up. Thank you.

D

So my question is one: if there's another, if there's an existing garage on the.

D

Property or, if there's no garage for this particular family residence, I.

E

Believe for for this particular house that they were adding to it did not look.

E

Like there was an existing garage, whether or not the other two other.

E

Houses on the lot had garages. I couldn't tell from the from the aerial it looked.

E

Like maybe one of them did but press the petitioner couldn't speak to that.

D

Yeah I'd be happy to hear from the petitioner, jackie.

B

You tell us if there are other garages on the lot. Let me make sure you're.

B

Unmuted, I think you are jackie, sorry, can you go ahead and tell us if there are.

B

Ashes on the lot, there are no garages for any home and may I speed something.

J

Out, if it, if it's related to that, yes yeah, if it's related, you have a chance.

A

To to add anything to your comments once once, we're done with the questions here.

A

But if it's related to the question about garage just go ahead and answer it.

A

Now? Okay, yes, no! This is the only garage. There are three houses, but our family.

I

Lives in the three houses, my daughter lives in one. My son lives in one, and we.

I

Live in one, they have no garages and we have man. That's why we were looking for.

I

One thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I had one other kind of more technical.

D

Procedural question, jackie and and keegan the the bza would have I'm just.

D

Trying to think about what the bca would would have different grounds to approve.

D

This, as a variance I mean they they could. You know our our purview is around.

D

Assuring that proposals conform to the comprehensive plan- and I understand you.

D

Know our our level of approval, but the bca could approve this or deny it or act.

D

On it, based on their consideration of a variance in a way, that's different, I'm.

D

Trying to distinguish the difference here, checking okay, so sure yeah. Those.

B

Day they have more findings than you do so one of the things that they will look.

B

At is the comprehensive plan, but they also have to look at whether or not the.

B

Request is injurious to the surrounding property owners or the community as a.

B

Whole and the big one, which makes youths.

B

Variance it's very difficult is that they have to determine that the property.

B

Is so unique that the that the rules are in fact creating a hardship for use of.

B

The property, so that is not something you all consider, but that is something.

B

That they will have to look at yes, okay, thank you.

D

Thanks, huh okay, are you done gillian? Thank you. Yep here goes flavia well done.

B

Sorry, okay fabio you're at okay. My question is actually I went on the gis.

K

And I know the past of my own question. I want to know if this, so there are three.

K

Residences three homes in one plant and one single owner- I believe so. Yes, yes, so.

K

This is one owner owns three houses, correct, correct.

K

Here's a question: can the owner subdivide this lot since it's two two.

K

Acres 2.57: can they subdivide the lot and make a lot with just the house of.

K

Miss mrs. stags and if that is allowed, can they add a garage to that lot. Detail.

B

Okay- okay, sorry! Yes, they do not have.

B

It's difficult because they have enough land to create three separate loss, but.

B

The orientation of the houses makes it impossible to create three lots that.

B

Meets the zoning code as far as design.

B

For example, because, like the house in the back, wouldn't have any frontage so.

B

You have to have front end when you're creating a new lot, so we did look at that first as a possibility. Okay, so yeah. We do not think that they would be able.

B

To actually subdivide it and put them each on their own lot, if they would have.

B

Been able to do that then? Yes, they couldn't have subdivided and added on to.

B

The house, if it ended up being on its own parcel okay, I'm just looking at.

K

Different ideas on how it is that we can be compliant and yet be able to help the.

K

Stance in a situation, okay, was that the end of your questions, great, thank you.

B

Okay, good susan had a question yeah. Thank you.

L

My question has to do with the available parking around the home in question and.

L

Of course, I understand our constraints here, but I'm also wondering about the.

L

Bca, do they have anything you can look at with respect to aging in place and.

L

Making sure that the residents of this particular seems to be multifamily, but.

L

It's the same family in a sense if there are any amenities or any considerations,.

L

That could be made for active living and aging in place with respect to having a.

L

Garage and an ability to get in and out of the house from a garage safely.

L

Slipping and falling at the winter any any consideration at all that could be.

L

Helpful, yes, I mean I do think they will consider that they have considered that.

B

For other variance requests, it's just difficult, most variances that they see.

B

Our development standards variance and the thresholds are much lower. So then a.

B

Use variance so I don't know if that will be able to fit them to a.

B

Recommendation or get them to an approval, but I'm sure that that is.

B

Something they we'll discuss because they have in the past, as we've seen other variances come up where people are. You know wanting to.

B

Add fourscore bathrooms, but they don't have the space on the lot and those.

B

Types of things and then back to the first question parking where, where are.

L

The residents currently parking and what proximity to their front door their side.

L

Door, let me unmute jackie here and see if she can go so I think she's actually.

B

Unmuted jackie, can you answer that question? Yes, we have across our yard,.

I

Along the driveway, we have driving there and we had started.

I

Putting a driveway in hoping we would be able to get the barn or whatever it is.

I

But you know that's all we have. You have to walk out and go across the yard to to.

I

Get to the cars and we've been doing that not a hundred fifty feet all right.

L

Thank you, okay. Thank you. It's related to.

M

To the first question regarding the person who opposes a, I think it's.

M

Someone living around the property, so this was, as far as I understood, a.

M

Josh and owner complained, it was in a written complaint and there was in any.

M

Details about how it may affect the the person's property right that it does in.

M

Detail in which way or why? The reasons why this person opposes this proposal.

M

That's correct: well, we did not get a lot of detail from.

E

The person on you know why they were opposed to it other than you know, for.

E

The reasons we stated that you know they just didn't feel like they wanted to see.

E

An expansion of on this site.

A

Okay, leave craig has a question great. I this is a more for keegan and jackie.

N

There was a comment there about it. Maybe a smaller garage.

N

This one looks to be fairly big at 30 somebody, some, which is you know he.

N

Indicated about a four car garage would they be able to build a one or two car.

N

Garage and b would that be allowed? Well, since this is you know, the.

E

Non-Conforming, use, you know really was any expansion is what triggered the need.

E

For the use variants- and you know, and also the limited compliance and such so.

E

I think it you know if it was a smaller garage, it would still be. You know in.

E

This in this situation, okay, all right! Thank you, follow-up on that.

A

It seems like that really is the issue here right that this is expansion of a.

A

Non-Conforming use, but really they're not conforming use is that it's.

A

Multifamily and we're not expanding the use in the sense of adding any.

A

Additional multifamily units, so I guess my question would be maybe this is a.

A

Question for legal, what what defines an expansion of a non-conforming use. I.

B

Think I am muted, you might hold on yeah, you did yeah, I did and jackie. I don't.

F

Know if you and keegan want to try to address that or if you want me to drive.

B

In no that's fine, so I mean the expansion, enlargement.

B

Creating new area where a you set is already ongoing that it's non-conforming.

B

Can and be relocated into so this would be more space that would go as.

B

Supportive space of this multi-family youth, so basic.

B

Any expansion that they would do here would be an expansion of the multifamily.

B

Use you know if right now, they're wanting to use it as a garage and that's.

B

Great, but there would be no reason that they couldn't do an interior, remodel and.

B

Turn it into six more bedrooms or a kitchen or a living room or whatever you.

B

Know it's it's! It's manning to use. Oh sorry, go ahead.

B

Well, I mean is that true, because as a non, if it's, if it is a non-conforming.

A

Use I mean, could they could they add another unit? Now, no, not another year.

A

They could add more living space with a use variance. I'm saying I guess I'm.

B

Saying it's, it is an expansion. I think what you're saying is that, because it's.

B

A garage and not another unit is that actually an expansion were you reading.

A

Directly from the code, when you I was not, but I didn't look and there there.

F

Are cases on expansion of non-conforming uses? You can imagine something that.

F

Would be so de minimis that it wouldn't qualify, but that's not what we have here.

A

So so you're saying, though, that allowing this as a use variance gives them.

A

Essentially the right to add as many units as they as they want up to no.

B

Sorry right, then, to to convert the garage to another unit, yeah, not a unit.

B

Just more living space, I was making the differentiation between a garage and.

B

Like a living room, you know it's made if they decide that they, I think it would.

B

Look more clear-cut, and maybe it wouldn't, but I think it would look more clear-cut to to everyone if they were like adding a bedroom or you know if it.

B

Wasn't a garage that yeah this is expanding the yeast, but we see the.

B

Garage is the same thing yeah I get that I guess what I'm I'm. I'm.

A

Wondering do I have to see it that way. He said that clear doors this is this is.

A

This an interpretation of the code, he an can you go to your slide that you have.

B

About the non-conforming stuff, I just don't know what's on there yeah, let me.

E

Just one believe- and this was just taken just directly from the code right- I just.

B

Couldn't remember what part you had on there? I think the part that would be.

E

Consequential at this, as you know, the intensify, expanded enlarged extent. You.

E

Know, et cetera, was but yeah we're we're looking at all right, brad, I'm just.

B

Looking yeah so the reference that keegan has there from 2008 zero five.

B

Zero though it does include the occupancy clause, it's just that any.

B

Lawful non-conforming use shall not be intensified, expanded and large extended.

B

Or relocated to another portion of a law or structure. And that is as clear as the.

B

Code gets about that, I would say I guess it's. I guess you got a really really.

A

Parse words here: is you know what what is the use right is it? Does that mean.

A

Anything on the property or the use of property conforming, so we I'm not your.

C

Question yeah, but I mean we see the use as one thing, so it's multi-family.

B

Because the code is very clear that if you are single family, you have one unit.

B

On a lot, so, even though these little like three single family units, because.

B

They're on one lot, they are multi family per the definitions of code and then we.

B

Also see development characteristics of a lot as different as non-conforming, but.

B

That's different from the use like a the it doesn't meet code because it doesn't.

B

Meet use requirements, but it also doesn't meet code because it doesn't.

B

Mean developments here is requirements of the multi family use that it is maybe.

A

Another question another way to phrase this would be you know how is I was.

A

Adding the garage different from say, paving the parking I mean. That's also.

A

Intensifying the use, but that's something that we not only would allow.

A

We would require we're only gonna require it if they get a user and we're.

B

Legitimizing their multi-family use and I think that expanding a building that.

B

Currently exists as multi-family. It's pretty clear that, like what else would.

B

That be if it wasn't multi-family you're, sending the use that is within that.

B

Building by making the building bigger.

B

But yeah, I'm not sorry, I mean I'm following, but I'm not kind of not. I.

A

Guess I'm getting into comments here instead of questions in about these, for.

A

That but yeah, it just seems like it's hard to make the case that you're.

A

Expanding the multifamily use. Well, the only thing that's expanding is the.

A

Primary residence here, if yeah I mean, I think, even if we were talking about.

A

Expanding a rental unit on the property that could, that would clearly be.

A

Expanding the use right, if you're expanding one of the rental units, but.

A

We're talking about.

B

As far as the code is concerned, the code doesn't ya care. I don't think who lives.

B

In this house so you're calling it the primary structure, but I mean it isn't so.

B

They're all equal, there are three houses like if it was if they were apartment.

B

Building and they wanted to do an addition to one of the buildings thing.

B

That would, even if it wasn't an entirely new unit that would clearly be expansion.

B

Of multifamily- and that is the same as what's happening here, because these.

B

Three units together create a site that has multifamily. There is no single.

B

Family there's no primary unit. It's one one little compound with three units on.

B

It it's how we yeah. Let me ask one more question: others get back, there's more.

A

Questions here coming so you mentioned that it would be impossible to subdivide.

A

Into three lots, because the house, in the back wouldn't.

A

Have frontage, is it possible to subdivide into two lots and make one.

A

That remains as a non-conforming use, with the two rental units on it and one.

A

That, with with this house, I don't think so, though I guess that would be.

B

Something I would need to talk to mr. ricker about, because when we would not.

B

Want to be again in the business of legitimizing and non-conforming use so.

B

Even though it is non-conforming now, if we went through the subdivision process,.

B

And the new second law, with two houses on it, would be new and be brand new and.

B

We would be creating it with a youth that was non-conforming I so I my.

B

Inclination is that we would not be able to do that, but I would have to check.

B

With legal about that- and I don't know if that something my can answer like.

B

Just off the cuff, but if, if they wanted to do that, that would be my main.

B

Question is that again, our concern is once we, as a community, have identified.

B

Where we want uses to be, then we we as planning transportation.

B

Department need to be careful what we're legit amaizing! That is just not in line.

B

With those documents basically yeah, I would, I would agree with that. If we want.

F

If that were the proposal that we're on the table, we would have to talk about it, some more jackie. I think it's exactly right, so that would be something that.

A

Could be pursued, I guess in I guess my last question is: could you not also as a.

A

Last resort just pursue a rezone to make this multi-family right. Yes, so the other.

B

Option and the only option that will be in place after wednesday if another.

B

Something like this comes up because we will no longer have you experience it in.

B

Our you do, as of the end of this week, will be a rezone request, so reasons.

B

Obviously need to also meet the comprehensive plan, so a rezone of this.

B

Parcel would have a reason request, for this parcel would have generated the.

B

Same recommendation from the department, based on the reasons we've recommended.

B

Denial for your use variance, can I mean your comprehensive plan. Consideration.

B

Because this area is supposed to be single-family, primarily okay,.

A

That's it for me. I think there are several other commissioners questions.

B

Beth, I'm going to go to you first okay. I just want to better understand why.

G

We're considering this, if you're not able to recommend a variance to is in.

G

The code, unless I'm missing something so are we considering this because we are.

G

Making the recommendation as to whether or not to have a variance granted for.

G

Either this proposed garage or potentially something smaller.

G

Than that, in other words, if we're stuck with the language here, seems pointless.

G

For us to discuss this right, so I mean yes, so anyone can apply for anything.

B

They want, you know, we we said to the petitioners at the beginning. We do not.

B

Think that you meet the requirements, we don't think you can expand, they they.

B

Very much want to expand for the reasons that they've described, so this is their.

B

Only option, basically besides filing for and taking a rezone or question council.

B

So, yes to us, it seemed fairly cut and dried that they do not meet the.

B

Requirement for a recommendation approval from this body, but I mean that.

B

Is up to you all to weigh okay? Well, I guess that's my question to you is its.

G

Are we able to make a recommendation.

G

Make sure I understand the scope of what that would mean, and that is whether.

G

Recommendation for a use, variance to enable suitably sized garage if you will.

G

Attached to the house, which would meet the needs of the stags.

G

I, whether that carries with it any or different significance for building and.

G

It sounded like not in terms of I think you mentioned, maybe doing some.

G

Remodeling becomes a bedroom as opposed to a garage or or something like that.

G

But it doesn't have any if you will precedential effect. Does it in terms of.

G

Anything else that would happen with this property in the future. You are.

B

Right and that this is not set precedent for for any lots, including this one. So.

B

Whatever the busy is to be, they were to grant the youths variance. They could.

B

Limit it, however, they wanted to so they could say we will.

B

Grant the experience for a maximum of two car garage size you know and and do.

B

That, if they want to or we can grant the use, variance or garage use only you know.

B

Whatever they end up, feeling is appropriate that the kicker, the.

B

Difference here now than what has been in the past is that this is it like.

B

We're not doing the experiences anymore, so they can't even come back in the.

B

Future and request something like this: it's just it's not it's not good.

B

Planning practice really and we're not doing it so sorry go ahead.

G

Oh, no, that's! Okay! So I just wanted to address because, like you're saying you.

B

Know if they want to expand in the future, could they come back and ask for another one they actually as far as the new code is written. Now they can't so.

B

They, whatever they if the bca were to approve, then whatever was approved now.

B

Would be basically the max out of whatever they're going to be able to do.

B

Unless the property get three zones through the new mapping right yeah thank.

G

You I mean that makes sense to me that sort of in my mind, I guess, cut something.

G

Necessary in this place for a long time- and it doesn't seem, I wasn't hearing a.

G

Substantive harm from building again- maybe something smaller than is proposed.

G

But yeah, that's that's what I felt like I was hearing, so thank you. Welcome, okay,.

B

Karan, just a sec, okay, karan you're up, I thank you. My question was really.

O

Around what brad was asking originally but but now includes some of what beth.

O

Just asked because you know you really would want the stags to be able to build.

O

This garage, it does sound reasonable and yet.

O

Going back to that question of, are we stuck with these rules in keygen? I see.

O

Your slide up there on 20-point, oh 8.0 500, but when I look at the packet you.

O

Have item a and when I look at the packet on page 41, you actually have.

O

Listed also, an items see that I want to ask about which gets back to brad's.

O

Question and jackie about what does it actually say? An item see on here says no.

O

Building our structure shall be constructed in connection with an.

O

Existing lawful non conforting, conforming use, so is that actually.

O

Saying you cannot build an additional building. Is that what we're stuck with.

B

You can ride keegan yeah, so that's you know, I guess maybe jackie you could.

E

Clarify this yeah, what that is saying is that you know that no building or.

E

Structure could be constructed in connection to a non-conforming use and I.

E

Thought that was relevant to this particular case, but you know jackie.

E

Perhaps maybe you know if you have a additional thoughts on that king so can.

O

I just ask you, when you have this slide, you're sharing right now on our screen.

O

It's item a has that item c. Is there a reason you left that off the slider you.

O

Just left it off the slide because to item c is actually like very direct.

O

Compared to even item a that you have there, I mean it says you can't build.

O

Another building and I'm asking is that actually what we have here? Well, I kind.

E

Of saw item a as more relevant just because you know I didn't see, be a ditch.

E

In necessarily has a new structure, so that's why I didn't include it on the.

E

Slide but you know I do think I just saw something worth you know considering its.

E

Why it's in the report, but yeah jackie? I don't know if you.

E

Would want to expand on that or if you had any thoughts, sure yeah I mean I.

B

Think that's that it's relevant that they're not allowed to do that so.

B

Initially, when they did apply for the accessor.

B

Structure then they weren't meeting a or c, are usually now they're. Only not.

B

Meeting a since they've asked for it to be attached because they aren't asking.

B

To build a new, separate structure, but either way we would see it as an.

B

Expansion- I don't know if that answers your question karan. I guess yeah I mean I don't know when I see no building or structure.

O

Shall be construction constructed in connection with the existing use? I guess.

O

I thought yeah, I mean I mean that's the problem. Like the code says they can't do.

B

It so it's something that keegan is like trying to. I think make sure that you.

B

Guys understand that they just cannot do this via the code, so the only options.

B

Are to request the experience which then now legitimizes their use and makes.

B

These points here in 2008 o5o not apply anymore or request the reason. So what.

B

They've done is go to use variants throughout okay. Thank you. You're welcome.

B

Okay, let's see jillian, I was going to ask about clause c as well, since it.

D

Wasn't on the slide- and I think that's pretty direct- I presume that it's not as.

D

Strong because of the attached garage, the fact that there's an attachment now.

D

So that made it a little bit less aligned with a structure. That's.

D

Constructed, but to me it seems, like c, is more the clause which than we need to.

D

Continue to point to as the one that really is what's prohibiting this and I.

D

Guess I I just want to go back to the pca again, because, just to you know these.

D

These bodies operate independent. The plant commission operates independent of.

D

Bza, where we have similar purview, but we are designed to act as independent.

D

Bodies and to me it seems that we can. We can we're forwarding a recommendation.

D

Whatever that might be, and bza can act in a different way- and I just want.

D

To make sure that that's clear to me, it seems like this might be more.

D

Appropriate, even for a zoning appeals than for plan, I understand why we're.

D

Seeing it because it's a direct, you know it is part of a planned commission.

D

Purview and but to me it seems like it would be more appropriate in a bca.

D

um Body decision-making and I just want to again emphasize that aspect of it and.

D

I guess my question is: is that right, jackie, okay yeah, so I'm I want to.

B

Clarify for new commissioners and just for everybody, because it is very.

B

Confusing so a youth variance is entirely the purview of the board of.

B

Zoning appeals, that is their decision to make your role is, and whether or not you.

B

Think that the request that they're making is in line with the goals of the.

B

Comprehensive plan, so while it is useful and relevant for you to understand for.

B

Example why they don't meet code now, that's. I do think that that's helpful.

B

Information- and it just helps you, you know, get a more well-rounded view of the.

B

Issues, your real, you know very narrow focus should be on. They are asking to.

B

Have a multi-family used to be legitimized in this area, where the.

B

Comprehensive plan says x, does that match and then there are other. You know.

B

Reaches you can make where you could like? We talked about aging in place or.

B

Are you know wanting to create more density? You know in general, near town, I.

B

Mean there are other things that you could weigh, but the things that you.

B

Should be looking at are whether or not what they're asking to be legitimized.

B

Which, in this case, is a multi-family used whether or not that thing is in.

B

Line with the comprehensive plan- and so we have said because this area is.

B

Designated as primarily single-family, we don't think that in this location that.

B

They that it is in line with a conference, the plan and that's why we've recommended denial- and that is like that is the entire.

B

Purview of what you're supposed to be doing, but but we do like to give you.

B

Background information and as much do you feel detail as possible so that so.

B

That you can make that decision, but I mean really the plan commission's only.

B

Role is to make a recommendation to the board of zoning appeals based on whether.

B

Or not, the use request is in line with the comprehensive plan. Do you have.

B

Anything else, jillian, okay, flavia, all right. I have. I have a some questions.

K

Here so we are calling this an attached garage, but when you look in their.

K

Proposal it says a garage in storage 1600s. Sixteen hundred and sixty four.

K

Square feet pretty large structure and then, when you read the specs of this.

K

Building, it's metal, it's a metal building building. This is a full barn.

K

This is not an attached garage like people are thinking that it's an.

K

Attached garage with a cement poured cement and built as a stick-built here.

K

This is a full barn, it's 32 by 52, so that changes things that I mean I just.

K

Want to know this is what everybody is envisioning in the plan commission. This.

K

Is not a garage where you're gonna go park, your car and walk up walk up the.

K

Steps to your home, this is a detached structure that it's 1,600 square feet.

K

Almost 1,700 square feet for storage of loan, more cars boats, whatever you want.

K

To do, and it's quite large, which will accommodate probably the whole family's.

K

Tools and everything else, so when I look at that way,.

K

The aging-in-place idea seems like it doesn't match with this structure, is, am.

K

I reading something wrong here.

B

No that's what they are requesting, because if I can't let me let me unmute.

B

Jackie in case in case, something has changed just a second.

B

Jackie, do you have any other comments on kind of the style of what you're.

B

Requesting yes, ma'am, what what I let me say, the word safety we lived here and.

I

You were saying, I'm not sure, but we have apartment buildings in the back where.

I

The last house is on the side: there's an apartment, that's on west 17th street.

I

They're building a hundred and fifty apartments straight behind us and we've.

I

Had problems why we want this big pole? Barn is because we have had our car.

I

Stolen, we have had a canoe stolen, we need something where and four-wheelers.

I

Stolen we wanted something big enough that our cars in my husband also has a.

I

Backhoe we wanted to be able to back it in there. We wanted it safe, where we can.

I

You know roll down the doors, that's why it's the pole, barn sighs. We have no.

I

Intentions, I'm 74. I don't think I'm going to be having any more kids to need.

I

To build bedrooms or anything, but I'm sorry, it's just it's more for safety. We.

I

Have had people coming out of the apartments running through our yards on.

I

The weekends when they're, drunk and the police are after, and we just.

I

Wanted something where we can put everything in and feel safe. So that's.

I

Why the large size? Thank you: okay, brad, back o israel cutting was the.

M

Request being based on a health condition for both people regarding.

M

Their disabilities, but what what I hear now is that the health conditions are.

M

Not the main points, but maybe the safety for for the property, because I was about.

M

To ask regarding the language: if they there was this kind of request for.

M

Protection of health conditions regarding the the access to date today.

M

To the house and and the pstd situation with the with the other owner, so it.

M

Seems that it's more based on safety than than health conditions? I don't know.

M

If the petitioner could clarify this, because the the statement is based model.

M

On helping both of them with access to the house and hanging the wheelchair, yes.

I

I first of all it is for my help. I I have had problems for years now that was.

I

The main concern but, as I was sitting here, listen to everything everyone was.

I

Saying then, I realized, I should speak up and say something about the problems.

I

We've had with people coming, you know, coming in our yard, we're not young.

I

Anymore and we're just trying to make ourselves as safe as we can and not.

I

Worry, I don't know it the gentleman I kind of take offense at that that he was.

I

Saying that he first thought it was for our health and now, of course,.

I

Else, no, it is for our help. So I'm sorry you know, but it is for our health, but I.

I

Just added the other as a something else. Thank you. Okay, any additional questions.

A

From commissioners all right seeing none, I think we are ready to go to the public.

A

Is there anyone from the public who is on the zoom meeting? We would like to.

A

Speak if so, just again, the way to indicate that you'd like to speak is to.

A

Click on the participants list and then click on raise hand. If you do if you'd.

A

Like to speak, and if we don't see any here in the next few seconds, jackie.

A

Would we would you be able to check the the facebook feed and see if we have any.

A

Questions coming from facebook, there's nothing on facebook, nothing! Okay! I'm not.

A

Seeing anyone here on zoom.

A

Last call for public comment: okay, seeing none. We are back to the commission for.

A

Final comments or emotion: everyone need it. Okay, here we go sorry.

B

Go ahead as well: yeah yeah right! So the recommendation from environmental.

M

Committee would be some other changes, so I wonder if the petitioner would be okay.

M

With the different changes or requests that had been done, if this is approved,.

B

Just a second, this is second japanese.

B

Okay, jesse go ahead, I'm not sure I understand what he asked in the packet.

B

There was a recommendation from the environmental commission from the.

B

Bloomington environmental commission- and they basically talked about the.

B

Landscape plan you'll have to submit if this were to be approved and electric.

B

Vehicle charging stations and possibly some sort of bioretention rain gardens.

B

And solar panels on the site, he was wondering if you'd read that or if you.

B

Had any thoughts on that she's saying she doesn't think so she thinks that's.

J

Kind of contra indicating each other like the environment and then so I mean.

J

We we have agreed to everything that the planning commission, with the parking.

J

Spaces and all about we have said absolutely, we will do whatever we needed.

J

To do- and we just actually sell this environmental page today, so, okay, I'm.

B

Sorry, can you tell us your name? My name is shane. Thank you. I just wanted for the.

B

Record for everybody to know, um okay is that okay, all done necessary.

B

Sorry, israel, just a second being funny. Okay, israel did you have another.

B

Question no, that was my margin. Okay, perfect. Thank.

B

You looks like beth and julianne. Oh, I know I'm trying. Okay, jillian, go ahead.

B

Comments, no, I was prepared to make a motion. If has a question: let's see what.

B

Best best, do you have a question? I do too yeah. Sorry, I didn't realize I was.

G

Unmuted yeah, I do have one question about the comprehensive back in the.

G

Packet and new and redevelopment activity for this district is mostly is.

G

This not a model of that residents is that it's not an interpretation of this.

G

Language, I I'm sorry, will you repeat that yeah it says I'm just looking at.

G

Page 41 on the packet: it's a plan where it says new and redevelopment activity.

G

For this district, mostly limited, which suggests, I guess there might be.

G

Something else more constructing new single-family residences. This is one of.

G

The reasons why I asked before I think what I did if this were the only.

G

Building on this lot, would there be any issue with constructing this? Oh right.

B

Yeah, so the comprehensive plan does say that about single-family uses, but this.

B

Is not a single-family use, so that's why I was trying to explain. I think it's.

B

Hard, we look at them and they're three houses, so we're thinking. Oh, it's, three single families, but they're not as well, because.

B

They're on one lot, this is a multi-family use lot, so that portion.

B

Describing the expansion of single-family uses does not apply right.

G

That that language puts the language after it on that same page, where it.

G

Talks about tracts of land multi-family residential uses may be appropriate. I was looking at that and trying to figure out if it's.

G

Legitimate to combine those to say well, you know here's a larger plot. It's got.

G

Three buildings, its multi-family residential and redevelopment activity.

G

Is effective so I mean I get where you're coming from. I really do and I'm.

G

Not you know, I totally understand the point about going forward, but I, but that.

G

Does make me wonder whether there's any flexibility here even for us in this.

G

Language, I guess part of that goes back to what I asked before, which is there.

G

Isn't then, I think there's not a whole lot for the commission to do right. I.

G

Mean we're just you know language, but if there is that's what I'm trying to to.

G

Figure out if there is interpretive flexibility there sure. So I think that.

B

Would be that would be up to you all, so we we don't think so or we would have. I.

B

Mean we understand what they want to do I mean we. We want to be sympathetic to.

B

People and we do try to help people through the code in ways that get them.

B

Where they want to be that's what our you know, that's part of what we do and.

B

We did not think that that language gets there, but you, if you all do you know and.

B

Then you present, you know, findings that describe that, then that is within your.

B

Purview, that's just not what we recommend it. Of course. Okay, thanks yeah,.

B

Gillian, I think, you're still unmuted. I was going to make a motion to accept the.

D

Recommendation that we forward petition you vo4 2-0, to the board of zoning.

D

Appeals with a negative recommendation.

A

They're a second, oh, I'm live seconded any one. Second,.

B

Okay, sorry, okay brad! I unmuted you brad. Can I ask you susan seconded, can I ask a.

B

Quick question is: was there an opportunity in there that we needed to.

B

Give the petitioner a chance to speak again. Yes, I think the petitioner had.

A

Plenty of time remaining, if leave that out jackie, if you have anything else to.

B

Add please do so. You have plenty of time, yes, ma'am. What I want to say is we've.

I

Lived here for 40 years, there are three houses owned, a lot they city ruiz, owned.

I

Us you know when we built these, we got the permits, we did everything and it was.

I

Okay, so that's you know: they've changed the zoning and now it's kind of like.

I

We're being penalized for it, but what I wanted to say is there are three houses.

I

And- and we are the primary one you know all of us are on our own it, my kids and.

I

I there are three three kids and all of our names are on the property, as owners.

I

But we are the ones who paid for it and built it, but we put their names on it.

I

But anyway, I just wanted to say I I don't understand some of the some of the.

I

Terms that you were using like a while ago, you said something about. I thought.

I

It was like for helping someone, I'm making it easier aging, something yes and.

I

I didn't quite understand that, and you know I guess, I'm still not understanding.

I

If we can't do this, you're saying that this really, we have no chance of this.

I

Going through you and the only chance that we're probably going to have is.

I

Trying to get it resolved, and it just seems like it's going around in a.

I

And we're the one who's lose them. Sorry, I don't mean to say all that, but that's.

I

Just what I'm getting out of this, but I think that's all that I can think of to.

I

Say right now, thank you. Thank you, okay. So a motion on.

A

The floor and I think we are back to in just final comments. Thank you. I will.

L

Because of the way the code is written and what our task is here, I will have to.

L

Support this motion. That said, I am extremely sympathetic to the owners of.

L

This particular property and all the three homes on it they've been there a.

L

Long time and I think strongly sympathetic to the whole issue of aging.

L

In place and making sure that your home, that you want to live in for as long as.

L

You possibly can is not only amenable to your changing physical conditions, but.

L

Also, people have a right to protect their property if they're concerned.

L

About things that have been stolen and they are looking for more security.

L

Around the property, I think those are all those are both valid reasons to do.

L

This, the of the of the main house, so I'm hopeful that the bca can take another.

L

Look at it and maybe make some different recommendations, I'm just feeling that in.

L

Our position here on the plan commission, we cannot, but I did want to make it very.

L

Clear that I am sympathetic to the homeowners here, thank you.

A

Okay, any other final comments.

B

Hold on trying to unmute israel here, okay, go ahead, a drill right! It's not.

M

That common each, I just want to hear the motion again. I had a noise so just to.

M

Know what the motion was please. The motion is to forward this to the bza.

A

With a recommendation for denial, just as it was, the motion is in line with the.

A

Staffs recommendation. Thank you, jackie for m. You mean this is jillian again. I.

D

Too am sympathetic to the homeowners in this case, but I feel like it's our.

D

Responsibility to really assure that we're upholding what is in the plan.

D

Commission, while still considering what the petitioner is requesting but to me.

D

This seems like one we have to. We have to make this recommendation and I don't.

D

I don't see a way to legitimize the use in any other way. However, I do have some.

D

Feeling that the bca might have more allowances for improving something like.

D

This or at least considering it- and I think it does seem really contradictory.

D

For us to allow this, given it's very clear in the current, you do as we see on.

D

These clauses in front of us, and particularly cause see that is just.

D

Something that we can't permit, so I and though again sympathetic to the.

D

Homeowners in this situation.

A

Yes, sorry beth go ahead; yeah thanks, yeah, I'm really struggling with this. I'm.

G

Trying to look at this language and figure out if there's a way to.

G

Contemplate the ability to do this because I share the sympathies everyone.

G

Else is expressed and it feels like there should be a way for the statics. I.

G

Agree that the language in the you know would seem to suggest otherwise. And it's.

G

You know, I don't know if I feel, as though there's literally no way for us.

G

To I to make a recommendation within the code, although I haven't even spec for.

G

This des analysis here and I realized that the staff is also trying to work.

G

With people to get them to where they want to be- and I appreciate that but but.

G

I I think this is really problematic. If you have someone who is living for four.

G

Years in a location, okay, their original zoning and now want to build a garage.

G

For a combination of personal health reasons and and personal safety reasons,.

G

That just seems like something they should be able to do, and so I don't know.

G

What it's gonna look like it's easy a! But but it is it's! It's troubling. In.

G

Eleven, oh it's a little frustrating. Actually, if there's no way to figure out.

G

A way for them to do that, so there you go thanks, beth anyone else well I'll.

A

Just I'll just had my monty sense, which is that you know if it's really our.

A

Standard here is just to judge whether or not this is in line with.

A

The intent of the comprehensive plan, I think we can find lots of things in the.

A

Country comprehensive plan that would support this. Perhaps the only thing that.

A

Comprehensive plan that really that doesn't support this is the idea that.

A

Multifamily should be allowed in this area. You know yes all over the map. This.

A

Particular parcel is, is shown as single-family, but it is literally.

A

Surrounded by multifamily, I don't think it's at all a stretch for us to say that.

A

The comprehensive plan you know would allow with your family in this area. They.

A

Clearly does vary in the surrounding properties, and I think there are lots of.

A

Other things in the comprehensive plan that would they would support this, so I.

A

You know, and I don't think we should expect- that the bca is going to have a.

A

Is going to be able to apply some sort of you know broader standard? They will.

A

Probably have a higher standard in my experience, so I have a real tough time.

A

Supporting a negative recommendation on this one, so I will vote no on this.

A

Particular motion, but I understand it's a tough one. It's it's is there's just a.

A

Lot of technicalities in the code on this one that I understand are tough to.

A

Get around so what I think, if there's no other comments, I think, had some.

C

Technical difficulties, so can you tell me who made the motion and who seconded.

C

Sure jillian made the motion and susan seconded all right. Thank you.

O

I just clarified the vote, so if we vote yes, we're go to the.

O

Sir, yes, if you vote yes, you are voting, you are agreeing with staff and.

B

Recommending a negative recommendation to the board of zoning appeals: okay,.

B

Thank you. You're welcome. Go ahead! Dad okay, herrera herrera, okay,.

C

See john hold on just a second okay. Try again, thank god.

O

Yes, whistler, okay hold on just a second I'm just gonna mute everybody and unmute.

B

The land commissioners only just a moment.

B

Just a moment, okay keep going dead; okay. What was that whistler? No okay, sandburg.

C

Yes, funk boiler, yes, kenzi. Yes,.

C

Kate, no ferrell, yes, okay, great and I'm sorry, I missed what was israel's vote. I.

C

Believe that was a yes, yes, yeah, okay! So six! Yes, thank you, okay. So the motion.

A

Passes- and we are now on to the next item on the agenda, which is sp 0, 7, 2,.

A

0, the kiln collective llc. This is request for site plan approval to allow.

A

A two-story addition to the existing kiln building at 333 west 11th street. I.

A

Need to make a public statement of interests conflict of interest here I do.

A

Have a direct financial interest in this project, I'm one of the partners in the.

A

Project so I will be recusing myself from the rest of this deliberation and.

A

Handing things over to vice president kinsey, so thank you. Okay, just a second.

B

I'm going to mute everybody and then unmute eric just a sec. Okay, go ahead.

B

Thank you. Can everybody see my powerpoint presentation? Yeah? Yes, okay,.

P

Great, I just want to make sure is working yeah, so this is a request for.

P

The kiln development l llc for a property that is just west of.

P

Morton and 11th street: this is at the southeast corner of eleventh and madison.

P

This is in the showers technology park overlay district within our commercial.

P

Downtown surrounding properties are all within the certified technology park to.

P

The south west and east to the north you've got a mixed-use development. This.

P

Property has the kiln building on there, which is a historic building. It's just.

P

North of the dimensions mill so at the building or the property currently has a.

P

One-Story building, that is on the site. The petitioners would like to add on a.

P

Story and a half effectively two stories and just extend vertically from the.

P

Existing building to add some new office space, so the property fronts on madison.

P

Street to the west and 11th street to the north, the proposed site plan has.

P

Some large plaza area, that's being created on the west side, adjacent to.

P

Madison street there's a small sidewalk connection that.

P

Extends out to 11th street there's a lot of great change that happens along the.

P

11Th street frontage for this property, there's about seven eight feet of grade.

P

Change at the north side and then it slopes down to about level on the.

P

Northwest corner so the petitioners have moved their sidewalk connection to work.

P

Around a large tall retaining wall that runs alongside 11th street there's an.

P

Alley that runs along the east side of this property, that's been paved the.

P

Petitioners would use that alley for a parking lot. There'd be five parking.

P

Spaces with one handicap accessible space adjacent to that or I'm sorry, six.

P

Parking spaces with one handicapped space, so the building would be used for.

P

Commercial building tenants, the ground-floor would be divided up into.

P

Five tenant spaces. The addition, as I mentioned, would just extend vertically.

P

And go up here is a rendering showing that new building they're petitioners.

P

Are primarily using metal for a lot of the siding material which you can see.

P

Here there would be some brick along the base as well.

P

This is the rendering from the alley, and then this would be the rendering looking.

P

At it from madison street, so this petition there are three aspects.

P

Of this that are coming to the planning commission for their review, those are.

P

All areas of the proposed site, plan or architecture that do not meet the.

P

Standards of the unified development, ordinance and I'll just kind of real.

P

Quickly, step through those, so one of those is the height of the building, so.

P

The zoning code measures height from the lowest portion of the building to the.

P

Tallest portion of the building there is an elevator tower that will be on this.

P

Building that extends up to 42 feet tall with in the showers technology park, 35.

P

Feet is your maximum height that is allowed under the current code. The new.

P

Code does have for a higher height standard, but this is being reviewed.

P

Obviously, under our current code, which has a 35 foot height limit, so the the.

P

Roof tower is the primary element that it extends that the main third storey.

P

Reaches 38 feet, so it's about three feet over the height limit, but it's the.

P

Elevator tower as well, that extends even further so one of the the other elements.

P

That this does not meet would be the facade modulation requirements. The.

P

Unified development ordinance requires building facades that are more than 100.

P

Feet long to have modulation along there, as I mentioned, they are utilizing the.

P

Existing footprint of the existing building and just extending vertol ii.

P

Vertically the buildings about a hundred and five hundred and seven feet long so.

P

If that additional five seven foot is what would require that modulation? That.

P

Modulation is very difficult to work with in saving the existing building.

P

This is a historic building. Historic preservation commission reviewed what.

P

They were doing for this proposed work and gave it a certificate of.

P

Appropriateness, meaning you know, the hbc reviewed, the historic compatibility of.

P

The proposed project so incorporating the modulation would create a lot of.

P

Difficulties with saving the existing building, which is something pc wanted.

P

So that is one area of this project that does not meet the zoning code is a.

P

Modulation that would be required along that west facade. The height is one of.

P

The other elements, and then the the third element would be the building.

P

Height step back that is required for buildings that are over 35 feet, as I.

P

Mentioned this building more or less is 38 feet tall, so it does extend above 35.

P

So the building or the zoning code says that you have to step back that third.

P

Storey, so the petitioners have stepped back the third storey.

P

They stepped it back, 10 feet. The you do requires a 15 foot setback. However, you.

P

Know the building is only 3 feet over the height limit. That would kick in that.

P

That step back so the step back or this the the setback of 10 feet. For that.

P

Third floor, although it's not 15 does help accomplish what we were requiring.

P

To do we're looking to do, which would be to step back the modulation, so the low.

P

Height of the building, the additional step back in essence creates a two-story.

P

Building from madison, which which meets the requirements, are the intent of what.

P

The zoning code was trying to accomplish so the renderings again. You know they.

P

Show a lot of brick a lot of metal along the top a lot of glass along the west.

P

Side along madison street, so the petitioners are trying to work with some.

P

Of the industrial look of the building, as well as some modern design with the.

P

Elements and the materials that they are using, so that's that's kind of what.

P

They're looking for this is a rendering looking east, so you can see the.

P

Dimension mill on the right side of the screen and then the existing kiln.

P

Building on the left side, in the background you can see some of the other.

P

Taller structures that are immediately adjacent to this to the east, so the.

P

Building height here is certainly lower than a lot of the other structures that.

P

You see in this area and is in keeping proportionally to the dimension mill and.

P

And what we're wanting to see for this area, so staff is recommending approval.

P

Of the site plan, with the five conditions that are listed in staffs.

P

Report and I'm at to answer any questions.

B

Sorry, just a second, let me unmute, you gillian.

B

Okay gillian go ahead thanks eric. Should we hear from the petitioner they're.

D

Present, I presume yeah mr. brown, are you giving the presentation? I am. I still.

Q

Muted nope, you're unmuted, okay, I feel like eric, did a good job of covering.

Q

Most of the points, I would say that one thing eric didn't bring up was the was.

Q

That the new ordinance has a minimum maximum requirement of 50 feet, which is.

Q

Obviously, more in keeping with what is going to be happening in the trades.

Q

District, we had a very I should let the commissioners know that we had a very.

Q

Successful round of meetings with historic preservation, commission, we went.

Q

Through multiple design iterations in collaboration with that group to arrive.

Q

At this particular design, and when we came out of it, everybody at hpc felt.

Q

Really good about where this building is going, I will also say that I noticed.

Q

Some of the comments in the staff report suggesting that we need to still need to.

Q

Calculate our impervious cover, there was a site plan issue that had that.

Q

Impervious cover calculation, where, let's see our pervious cover, is at 26% and the.

Q

Requirements 25%, so we are meeting that requirement.

R

Other than that perhaps don might have something to say, otherwise we could go.

Q

Into comments and questions.

S

If this is done, ylor- and I really don't have anything to add but be happy to.

S

Answer any questions, as you guys have them great. Thank you. So if there's no.

D

Further petitioner comments we're ready to move to the commissioners questions. I.

D

Don't know who's who's raised their hand.

D

Anyone have questions for eric or the petitioners. Okay, I have a question yeah.

O

Good, this is for eric. I just wanted you to clarify on the department's.

O

Recommendation on the conditions of approval, could you talk about number two.

O

The plaza area shall be installed, as shown on the submitted site plan yeah, so.

P

The reason that we put that condition on there was- and I let me go back to the.

P

Site plan- just so I can kind of go over that. You know one of the things that we.

P

Try to accomplish with all building designs is: how does this building.

P

Interact with the street not just and how it looks, but sidewalk connections so.

P

What I was concerned with was as oftentimes, we, you know, see a site plan.

P

And then you know, as it actually gets closer to construction like ah you know,.

P

We we just can't do this plaza or you know, we can't do some element of it, but.

P

That element was was very specific. You know that plaza. Wasn't there. We would.

P

Want another sidewalk connection: besides just the one that they're showing on the.

P

North side of the building- and we wouldn't want something a little bit.

P

Further south, so that plaza creates that open, nester and accessibility. Those.

P

Pedestrian connections, so I just wanted to make sure that that kind of gets.

P

Locked in you don't lose that element, so that was that was basically it. You know.

P

Obviously, there's a little bit of wiggle room, you know they didn't move some things, but in essence you know that plaza space creates that pedestrian.

P

Connectivity that we want okay, thank you.

D

Great looks like israel has a question right, so my question would be with the.

M

Recommendation from the biometal commission and regarding the green.

M

Building practices and one of the a very a statement was the possibility of.

M

Adding some photovoltaic cells, so I wonder if this could change from a.

M

Possibility to a confirm situation, so you know that's that's something that we.

P

Encourage it's, not it's not a requirement. You know they do have a flat.

P

Roof, which is not ideal for placing solar cells on top of just in terms of.

P

Solar capacity gathering, so we you know we leave that up to the petitioners. If.

P

They can incorporate that we encourage it, but it's not a requirement. Does the.

D

Petitioner want to comment on that. Can you hear me, am I on yeah, okay? So first I.

Q

Want to respond to the question about the plaza I'm wondering, if maybe we can.

Q

Shape some language that doesn't lock us into specifically how the plaza is drawn.

Q

Now I understand and eric and I had some discussion about the connection back to.

Q

11Th street also point out that the sidewalk going north-south between the.

Q

Western side of the building and madison is also representative of the rail line.

Q

That used to take the tried lumber from the kilns into the mill, and we want to.

Q

Extend that up to 11th street, which would make a representational connection.

Q

To the sawmill and the lump on the blog storage on the north side, 11th street.

Q

But the plaza area itself between the building and 11th street right now is a.

Q

Sketch of represent a certain degree of impervious impervious cover, but the configuration of that plaza would be nice if we can.

Q

Maintain some flexibility there, while being locked into making the pedestrian.

Q

Connection to 11th street eric does that sound reasonable to you yeah. I apologize.

P

I should have, I should have specified more clearly on condition to which.

P

Applause I was looking at so that should really be more specifically tied to the.

P

Plaza on the west side of the building, not the north side, so we can certainly.

P

Modify condition um to to say you know the plaza on the west side of the.

P

Building should be constructed, as shown on the site plan with some degree of.

Q

Flexibility, maintaining the primary intent etc. Well, I think we're on the.

Q

Same page here, okay,.

Q

Regarding the question about the solar panels, I believe it's, the intent of the.

Q

Entire kiln collective to make this building as sustainable as possible and.

Q

While a flat roof is not ideal for solar panels in this region, they still do.

Q

Provide benefit. We had a sawtooth solar panel installation design as we're going.

Q

Through the hpc review, which paralleled and pulled from design elements from the.

Q

Mill, the sawtooth roof hpc didn't necessarily think that that nod toward.

Q

The mill was appropriate for this building and didn't want to necessarily.

Q

See those as a design element, so so those were representational ii removed.

Q

From the design, but still we have the ability to put in a flat solar array on.

Q

The second floor, which will be included in the design and the budgeting process,.

Q

And it's it's not a guarantee that they will be included, but we'll certainly be.

Q

Looking for those funding opportunities and be evaluating how they're going to.

Q

Fit into the building budget and the long term.

Q

Operating costs of the building.

D

Great thank you very much. It looks like tran had a question yeah. I think so.

B

Trying to unmute him here there you go tron! Oh, you did thank you. um So forgive.

H

Me for showing up late. I had a another commitment today at 5:30, so I was just.

H

Able to join so if you covered this, my apologies. I was curious where the bike.

H

Parking was supposed to be located on the site plan and then I wanted to.

H

Follow up as well with what the conversation was with just solar in the.

H

Flat roof was there any green roof concept because it says the commitments.

H

To at least the green building practices that were stated verbally, so I don't.

H

Know what that really is in the in the packet for the environmental commission.

H

So if you could kind of address my comment, is there plans for a green roof.

H

At all, or in what were some of the verbal commitments and obviously where's.

H

The bike parking: I see that you circled that awesome. Thank you right right in.

Q

Front of soma mm-hmm cool, so yeah, I'm kind of curious about the green roof and.

H

Then the verbal commitments? Okay, so we don't have any specific plans for a.

Q

Green roof right now, though, there there is a roof deck. On top.

Q

Of the second floor, the third floor, accesses that has access to that roof.

Q

Deck and I certainly think it would be appropriate to have container gardens in.

Q

Some capacity on that roof deck area, so we are introducing some some some.

Q

Plantings as part of that roof deck area, I think it will improve the it will.

Q

Bring some nature into the building and it'll make it a more pleasant space for.

Q

The users there in terms of doing a green roof over the third floor, that we.

Q

Don't have plans for that at the moment, those those are very expensive. There's.

Q

Going to be a lot of money going into this building, I'm sure we'll be using a.

Q

Reflective roofing material to reduce the heat gain of the building in the.

Q

Urban heat island effect terms of implementing sustainability strategies. I.

Q

Have a long history with sustainable design, you know we're going to be.

Q

Carefully evaluating shading of the windows we're adding a trellis at the.

Q

First floor right now: it's you know, you just see it as this freestanding trellis.

Q

The idea is to grow a climbing vine over this trellis. That is going to really.

Q

Help to shade on the first floor, it is a western facing building. It's.

Q

Been a real challenge because it is oriented to the west. It's a it's a.

Q

North-South orientation and that's the front of the building and we're required.

Q

To have glazing on the front of the building through the zoning ordinance and that's the side of the building. That's really going to be getting a lot.

Q

Of sun, so we're gonna have to be careful with our loic coatings and this charles.

Q

At the first level is there and the intention is the shade of the building.

Q

We're certainly going to be looking at tight thermal envelopes. Good degree of.

Q

Insulation, efficient hvac systems, we're looking to incorporate local materials.

Q

Low embodied energy materials such as wood, the metal siding, is a low embodied.

Q

Energy material in comparison to a lot of other materials were preserving the.

Q

Existing building, which is a huge green building strategy, we're maintaining a.

Q

Lot of impervious cover and we're pervious cover and we're using pervious.

Q

Pavings so I could go on, but you know we're really. Sustainability is something.

Q

That you rake through the entire project, all the way from your site planning to.

Q

Them into the chemicals that you use for cleaning to the toilets being low-flow.

Q

Toilets to adding a shower so that people are encouraged to bike to work.

Q

And also having a coffee shop on the first floor, so people don't have to.

Q

Travel long distances for a latte, so thank you.

D

All right looks like I think karen is next. Yes, thank you.

O

Eric this is a question. Sorry, going back to the plaza, I got a little lost. I heard.

O

Mr brown at the end, say something about reasonable accommodation, so eric if you.

O

Had to rewrite that that condition on the recommendation, I think it was number.

O

Number two: how would you now rewrite that you mentioned? Maybe you should.

O

Written that differently. Well, at the very least, I would add that.

P

Story says the plaza area on the west side of the building shall be installed.

P

As shown on the submitted site plan, if we wanted to loosen that a little bit, we.

P

Should we can say the plaza area on the west side of the building shall be shown.

P

In general, as shown on the site plan, you know we can. We can add that, yes, okay, if.

B

I can comment on that. If that's okay, this is jackie. I understand the desire.

B

To have flexibility, I do think all of the reasons that eric listed about why.

B

He did not include the flexibility in the first place are valid and we run.

B

Into those all the time with actual development, once we get past the site.

B

Plan portion, so I don't think staff is not recommending that you loosen these. I.

B

Think putting in the clarification that it's for the western is fine but making.

B

It be less specific about whether or not it has to meet the site plan. Isn't.

B

Something we would recommend, but of course, if that's something you as the.

B

Plan commission choose to do then, then that's fine.

B

Does that sound, fair eric to you? Yes, yeah, okay! Okay, thank you drill. I think.

B

Yeah real go ahead right so, regarding the other green building practices just.

M

To confirm ego summation some of those about the time thermal.

M

Envelope on glazing and the use of materials with low in body energy, so you.

M

Were saying that this is more like, I intend or more like a commitment that.

B

Probably you look at yeah, I'm trying to it seemed to misplace the. How is it.

Q

Worded currently by the environmental commission, I believe it's it's their.

Q

Intent to design the building remodel with tight thermal envelope, so I believe.

Q

What you're voting on based on this memorandum is an intent. It's very hard.

Q

To be specific about this, but a general intent to implement green building.

Q

Practices is the way that I read the memorandum from the environmental.

Q

Commission, so we do not have an etheric, we do not have all of those.

P

Recommendations built into conditions of approval, so you know the conditions of.

P

Approval that we have the five that I have listed are what the conditions of.

P

Approval are the ec has recommendations, but those are not specific conditions of.

P

Approval a petitioner, it was at lucas speaking, I think. Could you clarify if.

D

It's your intent to do that. Well, projects are collaborative there.

Q

Are a lot of people involved, including the entire kiln collective? So for me to.

Q

State that it's just my intent, I don't think would be appropriate. I think my.

Q

Intent as architect in the project is to encourage green building practices at.

Q

Every level and like I said it's, it's a very broad spectrum of potential.

Q

Strategies that are going to make this positively contribute to bloomington.

R

Environmental stewardship, so yes, it is my intent. I believe it's, the kiln.

Q

Collectives intent as well, but I would have to let them speak for themselves.

D

Does anyone from the kiln collective want to make that statement.

D

Normally, we might see other people in the audience, but I don't know I'm not.

D

Operating under the same conditions, I'm gonna zoom silence means no donger, craig.

P

Are you guys on they were here, hey they're? Here I was, I was muted. I.

S

Couldn't say anything so sorry yeah, I I would you know uh from the standpoint of.

S

The discussion- it is definitely our intent. I mean what you have here. The.

S

Kiln collective, I mean to expand on what exactly the killing collective is a.

S

Collection of bloomington residents that openness is they're all going to owner.

S

Occupants of this building and many he was some of them currently work in the.

S

Middle, certainly many of them are tech, related businesses, and so you know our.

S

Intent or we were onto this building because of the historical nature.

S

Obviously, its location, the tech bar and all along, you know, our our desire has.

S

Been to take a building that was scheduled for demolition here, a couple.

S

Years ago and and retain it- and you know it's obviously also a building that was.

S

Never intended to house people, it was always intended to house lumber. You know.

S

Thus, the lack of windows and and absolutely no amenities whatsoever for.

S

For people as it stands, so you know our our challenge here is to take a kiln.

S

For drying, lumber and turn it into an office building and so to the extent we.

S

Can possibly do that and obviously any construction that we do is going to to.

S

Meet all of the current codes and and take advantage of latest technologies in.

S

Terms of building envelopes and no insulation and heating systems and.

S

Cooling systems and the like, as lucas mentioned, we did have solar panels.

S

Initially, on the roof, those were you know at some objection as we went.

S

Through the the historical review, but you know our intent is to evaluate and.

S

Incorporate as much as possible, along the way as with any sort of project like.

S

This we have to balance out the return on investment of any. You know. You know.

S

We have to look at the solar panel costs or any any other materials that we would.

S

Consider there's always a return on investment that has to be calculated.

S

Because, in the end, the building does have to support itself from a standpoint.

S

Of being able to have the to at least break even so, and that's really our goal.

S

None of the kiln collective folks are really looking to they're, not viewing.

S

This as a retirement plan, by any stretch, they just wanted to have a place for.

S

Their businesses in downtown bloomington in a historic building in a tech park in.

S

The tech park, and so with that I would just say each each of the opportunities.

S

For green will be evaluated and used to the greatest extent possible. Thank you.

D

Israel anything else on that topic. Are you? Okay? All right? I should be good yeah.

D

Anyone else have any questions I have a couple if nobody else has any, and I.

B

Think mr. crowley may have a comment or question related to one of the issues.

B

That's been raised, alex. Are you there yeah I'm here? Can you hear me? Okay, yeah.

B

Go ahead! Well, so you know, I think, just going back to this issue of the of the.

T

Number two: the recommendation, the condition number two, my I just wanted to.

T

Raise the concern I totally understand jackie and eric, where you guys are.

T

Coming from we, we want to make sure that we are not losing the intent of the.

T

Plaza, which is intended to create connectivity between madison and the.

T

Frontage of the building right, so I think the intent of that is absolutely.

T

Right and I don't, I don't think there should be any flexibility on the intent.

T

Of that connectivity, because without that it's just it could be a stretch of.

T

Grass, and that would not really serve the purposes of, I think, what eric's.

T

Point was what I would like to suggest to the whether it's rewriting that or.

T

Just you know somehow allowing for this right now. The site plan has a fairly.

T

Crude, you know design not not to you know not to disparage the design, but I.

T

Think it was put in place mostly to to demonstrate what the what was intended.

T

By it, and what I'd like to see, if that's possible, in condition two would be not.

T

To relieve the the builders of a requirement to have an elegant, plaza.

T

Between the sidewalk and the front of the building, but to create a little bit.

T

More flexibility for them so that if they decide that they want to maybe.

T

Design it differently, while it still delivers what it's supposed to deliver.

T

They do have that flexibility to make adjustments to the design, and I think I.

T

Think you know if the plan commission forced our planning staff would be.

T

Willing to do that, I think that might ultimately benefit us all, because it would it would not lock the developers into something.

T

That might not, in the end, be as good as something else that they would do. That's.

T

Slightly different from what they submit it, that makes sense. May I add a comment.

Q

Here, yes, alex. Thank you very much for that comment. I might. I might object to.

Q

The word crude that it was more of a conceptual sketch of the intent right.

Q

And so, and if eric wants us to work with planning staff through the development.

Q

Of this site plan, which I'm sure we will be, I don't think anybody has a problem.

Q

With that, but I agree with alex that would prefer not to be locked in to this.

Q

Specific design, as it stated more, whereas it's shown I do this is done. I.

S

Do think the the intent of what we're trying to accomplish there on the west.

S

Side is, as you can see, it does include some trees. Intent was for those trees to.

S

Be ones that theoretically were used in the kiln and by the showers brothers.

S

Furniture factory, the intent, you know, and one thing that we've been very.

S

Supportive of after you know talking with folks about you, know, learning more.

S

About the history of the building, as we've gone through, this process is to.

S

Try to develop a say, a walking trail from you know where the trains would.

S

Arrive and unload the trees and then they would dry and then they you know.

S

They'd be cut to rough dimensions, brought to the kiln and dried and then.

S

You know, as they were called out for for for building they'd go to the dimension.

S

Mill to get cut into specific sizes- and just you know, walk people through that.

S

Process so the intent would be as you walk down that sidewalk from eleventh.

S

Street to the south, you know: that's the beginning, part of that process of.

S

As things moved from the trains to the kiln to the dimension mill, those trees.

S

Would serve the dual purpose of not only representing the types of woods that.

S

Were used by the showers brothers factory they'd also provide some nice.

S

Solar relief to the building itself from that western sun and well, I guess the.

S

Third purpose, would they provide some nice shade for the folks that are sitting in the area and the idea is it's really a you know, fostering.

S

Collaboration, it's a place for folks to sit and gather in small groups. So you.

S

Know whether you know we want to reference that it's a space designed a.

S

Plaza, you know the intent is, for you know, collaboration and gathering spaces.

S

Of small groups, I think we have the large group areas already kind of.

S

Covered by either the roof deck or the large plaza on the north side of the.

S

Building but you know, I think it's a design to be an area for not only.

S

Allowing two people to move through the area, but also to stop and linger in.

S

Small groups in that area, thank you. Thanks looks like tron. Did you have a.

D

Question yes, yeah, and I think I might be asking a common question- is there's.

H

Something that you need eric that could potentially replace condition2 to kind.

H

Of add some flexibility for the actual construction of the open space area, but.

H

It still provides you enough reassurance that they're going to be addressing your.

H

Needs or kind of, instead of making them actually design it to that effect, that.

H

They have presented today as more of a conceptual idea, so basically the.

H

Question is: is there a way we could rephrase cool condition to to.

H

Accommodate more flexibility for the developers but still meet the intent.

H

That the city is trying to pursue, so we can sew. So one thing I just want.

P

To point out, is you know what we're doing here today is approving a site.

P

Plan so when the petitioners come forward, you know this is not a.

P

Preliminary planned unit development, where they're, like hey, there's, still.

P

Stuff we're trying to figure out this is the final site plan approval. You know.

P

This is what no we've locked everything in we've nailed things down. This is what.

P

Its gonna look like this is where stuff's gonna be. This, is you know one of.

P

The approvals where you know everything should really be kind of nailed down at.

P

This stage, so we can, you know at staff level we can always be somewhat flexible.

P

You know in in things and we can build in some language here. You know we can.

P

Say something the effect of you know the plaza area on the west side of the.

P

Building shall conceptually be installed as shown, and then that will just still.

P

Always fall on staff. How how broad do we want to use the word conceptual, but you.

P

Know it's just you know. Like said, this is a stage of the where we should have.

P

Things locked in don't show it if you're not going to build it that way, so we can.

P

Add the word conceptually into condition two to help appease some concerns and.

P

We're always happy at staff level to work with people. You know to some degree.

P

I just want to lock in and connections that are being shown there. That's staffs.

P

Concern yeah all right other. I had a couple of questions. If nobody, I don't.

D

Have any other hands raised all right, so let me let me rattle off a couple of.

D

These um first, I wonder if either eric, where they're petitioner can clarify the.

D

West-Facing effect, this is the right rendering to have up for this question.

D

The I think it's labeled as black storefront. You know it's hard for me to.

D

Tell what the first floor looks like windows is going to be. It's not they're.

D

Not windows, though, are they so that's one.

D

My clarifying comments, that is it. What is that material.

P

Lucas, do you want to address that yeah? Sorry, just a second, we pull them back up.

B

Here: okay: lucas go ahead; yeah, it's so: okay, the the windows out the first floor.

Q

In the masonry, openings will be glazing, clear glazing. They will be divided based.

Q

On this elevation in this grid form- and this was a long discussion with hpc on.

Q

The arrangement of the glass on the right side, you can see the doors and the.

Q

What divides the glazing is going to be. Storefront will be two inch by four six.

Q

Inch aluminum black aluminum storefront, I think very similar to what you would.

Q

See at the middle okay, okay and the prospective renderings can be a little.

Q

Misleading because we're showing how the trellis would actually shade those.

Q

Windows, okay, great, okay and then the other you've mentioned a historic.

D

Preservation committee a couple times and just indicated that that I mean it.

D

Clearly sounds like there's been a lot of back and forth and and cooperation.

D

But I was surprised not to see something in the packet that was specifically from.

D

The historic preservation committee is there: is there a reason that that there.

D

Was no specific comment or approval or or words from them, so they the.

P

Petitioners did get a certificate of appropriateness from the historic.

P

Preservation, commission, so there was no. There was no memo per se from the hpc.

P

But the hvc approved the design, and that is the same design. That is before the.

P

Flame commission today, okay, good, I'm, want to make sure that's clear to.

D

Everybody, okay, good and then the last question is how much of the old building.

D

Is being retained in this aside from losing some masonry for windows and.

Q

Doors 100%- and there is this weird little.

Q

Interstitial space between the powerhouse, which is along the alley and.

Q

The kilns on the madison street side, which is basically consists of some.

Q

Metal pipe and some tin roofing it's over a utility sort of transfer taking.

Q

That out, obviously it's has no historic significance, but all the original.

Q

Masonry will be restored and maintained with the exception of the masonry. That's.

Q

Being removed for for windows and doors, great okay, thank you for that.

D

Clarification all right, I don't know if there's any other.

D

Question looks like karen. Maybe I do have one more question. I wasn't working.

O

At the black storefront until you asked about a jillion so in the packet, what we.

O

See on page 27 is probably not actually what it's going to look like. It's going.

O

To look more like what eric has pulled up on the screen because page 27, it.

O

Doesn't look like that the windows are all different, so is that just a mistake.

O

Or I don't have the packet open in front of me: okay, okay, so you're talking about.

Q

The eastern view, showing the mill and the buildings in the background yeah it.

O

Looks like a photograph yeah? Okay, so that was an earlier.

Q

Rendition and it was really primarily to show the height differences between the.

Q

Building and the surrounding buildings and the relationship to the mill, okay.

O

Great, so that's really not like on that slide. You have eric that really isn't.

O

Like that's the proposed rendering, but not really because all the windows are.

O

Different in all this okay, thank you just want to clarify thanks.

O

We went through three design iterations with hpc, oh yeah, I'm sorry yeah and I.

D

Just realized, I had one more question. Speaking of you know, the variation in.

D

Renderings here the one rendering that we were focused on earlier, where it.

D

Shows the side facing 11th street and there was a conversation about the.

D

Variation in grade there- and I wonder what is that height, I mean it on the one.

D

Rendering not this one but the one that we had up earlier. It looked pretty.

D

Serious, in fact, it looks like there's a proposed railing. There almost is that.

D

Correct one more yeah, I guess you can see it.

D

Both yeah this one in particular, yeah. I think you can hear me now. There is an.

Q

Existing retaining wall between 11th street and the building, I like it like.

Q

Eric was pointing out so, as you come down to the intersection of madison 11th.

Q

And 11th at the bottom of this image, it it grades out and then, as you move up 11.

Q

Toward college it starts to drop off, and it's there's currently a chain-link.

Q

Fence, on top of that, retaining wall, and it's a little bit tight between a.

Q

Utility pole and that retaining wall, which is one of the conditions here, is.

Q

That we allow enough space between the utility pole in the edge of the.

Q

Retaining wall, and then we put up this new guard guard rail on top of the.

Q

Retaining wall and then there's this larger retaining wall on the alley side.

Q

As well, what's not shown in this particular view would be some stairs.

Q

That would connect the alley down to this plaza in the coffee shop, mainly for.

Q

Access to the dumpsters, which would be in the alley behind the mill, great okay,.

D

So it looks like it's: this is adding some safety to that space as well. Okay,.

R

Thank you, okay, all right, I don't know if anyone else has any other questions for.

D

Petitioner staff doesn't look like any hands, are raised. All right. Are we ready.

D

To go to any public comment.

B

Yeah, if you are on the zoom- and you want to do a public comment, you need to put.

B

Your hand up on your little icon, don't see any chilean yeah. You know and are we.

D

Still, facebook live, we are so on facebook and there are none at this time.

B

Okay, okay, all right! Well, I hesitate to move on without any public comment, but.

D

That looks to be the state of our of our existence right now,.

D

Yeah, so all right, so we're back to commission for any comments or questions.

D

Really comments at this point or motion susan. I feel very good about this. I.

L

Think it's going to be a welcome addition to the tech park. It's very sleek, very industrial, looking as in keeping with the whole format, and this.

L

Is a site plan approval, and so I didn't have too many questions. I thought it was.

L

Well presented, and so I would be willing to support it with the five conditions.

L

And I think that I see that there's some tweaking of the language of number two.

L

As we've fairly thoroughly discussed and so I'll be I'll, look forward to see that.

L

Final wording thanks great. Thank you, susan.

D

Anybody else comments. Anybody else is really hearsay drilled at the back here.

B

Great go ahead, yeah, I'm also in favor, and I'm glad to hear about the best.

M

Intentions to follow the environmental recommendations, so I I also recommend to.

M

Commit to at least the green building practices that were stated thoroughly as.

M

It it was mentioned in the bilingual commission, ahran ahran.

O

Go ahead, yep thanks! I am in favor of this. I think it's done really well. It's.

O

Gonna be a really great improvement to a particular lot that has needed some. Some.

O

Love and it's it's gonna, add a lot to a very public parcel in bloomington. So.

O

With that said, you know, the site plan is the site plan, and that is what we have.

O

Before us, so I do understand needing the flexibility about the plaza, but at the.

O

End of the day, just as our role, um I know some of these people, I know don.

O

Wyler and he's great and does really good work and other folks, maybe who are.

O

Particularly like owners or so, but at the end of the day we have this.

O

Responsibility, the public and the public is to review the site plan. So if we.

O

Don't look at the closet, then I need to be told. What am I supposed to look at.

O

Because the site, the plaza, is part of what we're supposed to review. So I just.

O

Want to say that I do understand the need for flexibility, and I do like the.

O

Language there about conceptually, I think that makes sense, but at the end of.

O

The day we have to look at the site plan and that's what we're charged to do and.

O

That includes within boundaries, which is the plaza, so I will definitely vote in.

O

Favor of it, I think it's great, I think it looks really good and I'm excited to.

O

Have that property developed thanks great the same, I think that it's very.

G

Exciting it looks, terrific does a great job with that space and- and I feel.

G

Confident that between staff and the builders, they'll figure out a way to.

G

Make that closet work in the way that discussing and and that makes sense and.

G

That reflects what was proposed, but with with the kind of flexibility that will.

G

You know make it work out in the end so yeah. I think this is very exciting and.

R

I'm very happy thank you.

D

And floppier looks like yep, I am also in favor of this project. I have been a.

K

Historic preservation commission before and I know that they went through a very.

K

Extensive grueling process with the width of design, so I know that this they.

K

Have looked at every intent to preserve as much as they can of this historical.

K

Site and I'm also very intrigued and interested in what they are doing in.

K

Terms of turning place, where was a storage for wood into a living space for.

K

Businesses, so I think this is a very elegant solution.

K

I also agree and understood what don weiler has said about the the westside.

K

Plaza in the intent of what what they want to.

K

Do which is to create a pedestrian connection with 11th street, but also a.

K

Place where people gather and a place where it can be called a place of.

K

Collaboration and people can sit and have small group meetings, and I think he.

K

Explained that very well what the intent of and the concept of that plaza is.

K

Supposed to be we've seen the trellis we've seen the sidewalks, they might move.

K

Things a little bit, but I think the intent and the concept has been very.

K

Clear in what they explained- and I am comfortable with that- and I will be.

K

Voting in favor of this project. Thank you, okay. Thank you.

D

Looks like nobody else so I'll just offer my similar comments.

D

To the other commissioners, I think this is a really interesting redesign of this.

D

Historic site, I am definitely I share staffs concern.

D

About wanting to approve a site plan, and I'm particularly.

D

Concerned about the plaza area, I wish it could have been designed a little bit.

D

More beyond this real conceptual rendering, so that we've got a better.

D

Feel for it, but I feel like this through this discussion. I understand the purpose.

D

And what will be installed and I have confidence the staff will assure that it.

D

Achieves the pedestrian access and the friendliness and the gathering space.

D

That the space is being designed for so I think the addition of our the.

D

Clarification on number two and the recommendation is helpful to assure that.

D

We got what is really necessary for that space. The I think the requested.

D

Deviations to expand vertically and for the stair tower makes sense for this.

D

It's a minimal difference and obviously in keeping with the rest of the.

D

Buildings in terms of scale and dimension, so that doesn't bother me at.

D

All I would like to see more green building.

D

You know I would have liked to have seen more commitment, but again I again.

D

Appreciate what both the builders and the petitioners have committed to.

D

Verbally through this, this conversation tonight, so I hope that all happens and.

D

I'm excited for the renewal of this incredible space so I'll be supporting.

D

It as well so now we do need an official motion if there isn't any other comment.

D

I'd like to motion approval of spe, 0 7, 2 0, with the five conditions of.

O

Approval as listed great good, ok beth has seconded curran, has motioned all.

D

Right all right: ok, if you want to go ahead and do the roll call. Yes, yes,.

C

Kenzie, yes, sean coiler, yes, hey john! Yes,.

C

Sorry it's her and there should be, but maybe he's not hold on no he's not there.

B

Does yes yeah, he may have just lost, that's fine, so motion passes, 7-0 have.

B

Six out right or six zero, yep, okay, great all right! Well, thank you. Everybody thank.

D

You petitioners and thank you, commissioners and staff in particular.

D

For making this possible so really appreciate everybody's forbearance and.

D

Our skill at actually muting and unmuting ourselves, so good job, jackie.

D

For doing all this and very patient yeah yeah- and you know we appreciate the.

D

Public's tolerance of this, I know it's not ideal, but one that we'll have to.

D

Live with for a little while here so hopefully we'll be able to continue to.

D

Get some more public comment. I certainly wouldn't want a sacrifice. Public input.

D

But you know we're we we are as commissioner, serving as the public in.

D

This regard too, so, let's hope we can represent people's views, but I think.

D

That might be it for us tonight yeah, so we can be adjourned.

D

Great, thank you all so much. Thank you. Thank you.

R