City of Boulder, CO Planning Board, 5 Nov 2020

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From YouTube: City of Boulder Planning Board - 11-5-20

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City of Boulder Planning Board - 11-5-20

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Cindy spence: stand corrected. yes.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: junior, actually muted.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): thank you, everybody. welcome to the planning board, meeting.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, if we do,, we have I've all the board. Members are probably looks like a few others.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): need to make co hosts in just a minute., but, as were so I'll, go ahead and get started and quickly go through our meeting. Rules.

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jean gatza, staff, moderator, (she/her): awesome., so in an effort to keep these meetings respectful and orderly,, we have some specific protocol and I'll just go through these real quick.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): any activities that disrupt delay or interfere with the meeting are prohibited.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her): and just as it would be if we were in person time for speaking or asking questions, is limited so either I or the board chair will represent, will recognize applicants or members of the public to speak.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her): and when I meet you at the appropriate times, will need to anyone intending to address the board to please use a phone. If your full not currently displayed., you can change it or send it to me in the chat and I'm happy to change it for you.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her): know video will be permitted, except for board staff board members staff and applicants. All others will participate by voice only.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator, (she/her): women and otter, cindy. if she's, the acting host will enforce these rules by muting. Anyone who violates the url., so please don't do that.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, the chat function should only be used for technical issues to communicate with me or cindy as the host.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator, (she/her): and only staff and board members will be allowed to share their screens.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): when we get to the public hearing members of the community,, will you please use the raise hand function to indicate that you'd like to speak during the public hearing.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, you should find this easily at the bottom of your screen. I'll call them, those who have raised hands and unmute them and testimony will be by voice only.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, if there were participants on the telephone,, you may press star nine to indicate that you'd like to speak during public participation.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her): of each speaker will have three minutes during public participation and I will have the timer set up and have a way to warn you about 30 seconds left in your three minutes.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her): and let's see,, I mentioned the full name, we're not using the q amp a function,, but please again use the chat function only for.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): technical issues to me as the host.. This is really not the place for any kind of communication amongst the board or with the board around the substance of their topics, and thank you to everybody for being here. harmon, cindy. did I forget anything. oh.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: thanks., so thank you,, jane., very good.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay. well,, with that out of the way.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: and I never did.. So we will pretend that I called the meeting to order before jeans started at like 601 will call the planning board meeting of thursday, november 5 2020 of the city of boulder together. call to order right. Now. looks like we have.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: a quorum of planning board members., I see. sarah silver john crystal peter vitality, david and sign and lisa smith. oh, lou pizza has just joined the meeting. well,. So I think we have a full complement of planning board members. All seven present.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:. The first item on the agenda is the public participation item,, and this is where members of the public who would like to address the planning board on issues of general interest.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: may speak to the planning board. if, on the other hand,. A member of the public who wants to speak, wants to address us around a hearing item that we are hearing tonight.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:. I ask that you please wait until public comment for that specific item,. These are general public comments., we're looking for right now,. So I'm going to turn it over to gene again and jane,. If you would manage the public participation item on our agenda,, I would appreciate it.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): thank you. herman,. I will, I see two hands raised.. We do have the public hearing item, and I'm sorry. I don't have the agenda right here to list the topics: shabnam, shannon. What the specific title of your public hearing.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her): that will be next, just to make sure folks are.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:, we have to public hearing items. one is harmon zuckerman, pb: the consideration of requested determine if the restaurant. use it river in woods is in compliance with its development agreement and the other is a public hearing board consideration of motion to amend the north boulder sub community plan.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: regarding streetscape design., we're also going to handle a matter around the cu south project. now,. That's not a public hearing.. So anyone who wants to address the board around the ceo south project should do that during the participation right now.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): okay, great. thank you. harmon.. I see two members of the community with hands raised., laura tyler and peter mayer..

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her): so laura, you may unmute and address the board. and I'll start. I'll start the timer and when there's 30 seconds.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): I'll show. I'll do this so that you know note, it's time to wrap up.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her):, you may go ahead. Laura tyler: thank you. thank you, board for welcoming me to speak tonight.. My name is laura tyler and I'm here on behalf of the self boulder creek action group.-.

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Laura tyler: and I've had the pleasure of meeting, a few of you in person and those that I have not met.. I'm here to introduce myself.

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Laura tyler: and so we've been advocating for flood mitigation for our neighborhoods since 2013.

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Laura tyler: and due to its geographic location,, the city of boulder, has the highest risk of flash flooding in the entire state of colorado.

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Laura tyler: and our neighborhood is one of the highest risk neighborhoods in the city of boulder., and so I just wanted to just really quickly. Let you know.

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Laura tyler: that if you'd like to connect with us., our website is south boulder, creek action, group com or dot orgy and the.

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Laura tyler: flood mitigation option that city council has landed on it's the variant one 100 year,. It has our wholehearted support.

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Laura tyler:, we absolutely support this option.. It's been arrived at after many years of process.

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Laura tyler: and we also support a very collaborative and cooperative approach with the university of colorado and getting a resolution for our flood mitigation. Problem.

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Laura tyler:, we understand that housing is on the table.. We're excited about that. We're excited that this piece of land is adjacent to the table. nice. a park and ride.

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Laura tyler: and we're just really looking forward to the conversation that you're about to have in the coming months about annexation.. So thank you very much..

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): thank you, laura.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): peter europe, next peter mayer,, you may go ahead and unmute yourself.

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Peter mayerb: hi,: can you hear me.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, we can go ahead.

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Peter mayerb: great. hi,- this is peter mayer 1313 on hawthorne avenue.. I am a member of the citizens. Can considerations for the annexation, and see you south.

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Peter mayerb: and also the co chair of a plan boulder.

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peter mayerb:, so as you're getting into the discussions about the annexation., there are a number of things that we think you should consider. We've carefully reviewed the book that.

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Peter mayerb: so chrysler put together and we're remain some tremendous outstanding issues.. The key thing that must be remembered, is that.

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Peter mayerb:, if it's not in the annexation, agreement., it's not going to happen., see you as a sovereign entities.

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Peter mayerb: and that's if it is not specified in this any annexation agreement,, it will fall to the city of boulder and that falls on all the costs and you name it.

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Peter mayerb:, so there has to be a very specific, legally enforceable annexation agreement. In order for this to work.

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Peter mayerb: and that needs to require the university to pay their fair share of the costs and so far there is no indication any of the documents that they have agreed to. That.

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Peter mayerb: there's the issue of transportation.. We need to do a real transportation study associated with this property,, not simply the sort of piecemeal, half assed stuff that we've seen so far.

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Peter mayerb: we and we also need a real site plan in order to do a transportation plan. You actually need to know what is going to be developed at that site.

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Peter mayerb: and so far, see you is really not told us anything but sort of vague generalizations that might be this.. It might be that it won't be taller than this.

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Peter mayerb:, that is not enough., and if we go forward with an annexation agreement that does not include specifics.

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Peter mayerb: believe me,. We will pay for it down the road,, because in all likelihood. this property is going to be sold.. It is not going to be developed by see you.. It has already been developed by someone else.

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Peter mayerb:, and so we darn well better make sure that we get what we want out of it. And it's up to you guys to really be the gatekeepers on that..

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Peter mayerb:, so we got to include a plan for mitigating negative impacts on wetlands.

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Peter mayerb:: we need to make sure that everything- that's that's going to be built. There is going to conform with the comprehensive plan requirements and the charter and revised code.

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Peter mayerb: that needs to be specified because otherwise, guess what university doesn't have to because they are a sovereign entity.

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Peter mayerb:, all of this every day., so we have sent you a document that really lays out in very great detail all of the different issues and problems that we see with the sanitation, agreement.

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Peter mayerb: and we frankly do not see the university and isn't making any move towards the, the agreement and then the settlement of the thorny issues.

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Peter mayerb:, I wish that were not otherwise., but that's not, and this isn't negotiation where you need to represent the citizens,. You cannot just simply accept what they say. You need to treat this as a tough negotiations,. Thank you so much for your service.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): thank you,, peter., sarah silver pb:, I'm.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, very good., I'm jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her):, lisa spalding. I just see a note from you in the q amp. a we will raise hands for the next public hearing at that point.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator, (she/her): okay.

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Sarah silver pb:, I must., I'm sorry., can I just ask a question., I didn't see anything., I didn't get any sort of email that that the but peter just was referencing. Did that already come in, I get distributed.

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Sarah silver pb:, because I didn't see that.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: yeah,, I don't remember seeing anything from peter mayer either peter,. I don't know if, if you just send it to soon before the meeting for us to see it or if you just want to send it again,, but you.

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Peter mayerb:, wouldn't it would have come, the email would have come from marquee account.

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Peter mayerb: not directly for me.

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Sarah silver pb: okay,, that was on behalf of our group.-.

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Peter mayerb: and that is, that's a really detailed description. That goes point by point through all of the issues that we hope you will think about.. Thank you so much.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:. Thank you to have any other public who want to speak.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, I see no other hands raised at the moment.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: thanks gene will give it to more sec ends or.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: last harmon zuckerman, pb: opportunity.

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harmon zuckerman, pb:, all right,. Let's move on.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): harmon, just to just to clarify,, it looks like we did, have someone joined by phone, and if they would like to speak during this open comment,, not for the items that are for the public, carry you could press star nine.

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Lisasmith pb: and for that person joining by phone, if you wanted to speak to see yourself., this is the time to do. That.

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Thank you,, lisa.

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Peter mayerb: okay.

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harmon zuckerman, pb: great, thank you.. Then I'm going to jump to the public hearing items and I'm going to cue up the first item and then turn it over to charles to manage the staff presentation.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:. The first item is item for a on our agenda,, which is titled public hearing and consideration of a request to determine if the restaurant use river in woods located at 2328 pearl street is in compliance with its development agreement executed for non conforming use. Review.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: triple 087. This request is considered pursuant to section nine dash to dash 11 compliance with development agreement of the boulder revised code. 1981 case land use, review l,. You are.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: dash triple zero 41, so I'll turn it over to charles and staff right. Now. thanks,, charles.

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Charles ferro, city of boulder : great. thanks so much. good evening, members of the board and pleased to introduce shabnam beast. she's, going to be presenting staffs analysis,. This evening.

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Charles ferro, city of boulder : shabnam, has been an associate planner in our office for about a little over a year. Now she joins us from new york city via boston.. We're very pleased to have her here this evening for her maiden voyage before the planning board so shabnam. Take it away.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: welcome.

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Shabnam bista: thanks,, charles., good evening. planning board and my name is shabnam vista and I am an associate partner like charles said.

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Shabnam bista:. The next item on the agenda is the public hearing and consideration of a request to determine if the restaurant youth river and what's located at 2328 pearl street is in compliance..

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So I didn't share my screen.

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Shabnam bista: able to see that.

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John gerstle pb: yeah. yes.

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Shabnam bista: right,, so it's the public hearing consideration of a request to determine if the restaurant youth run woods located at 2320. Pearl street is in compliance with the development agreements.

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Shabnam bista:, as a brief overview for this evening., we'll go over the review process and criteria. I'll, provide a little bit of background on the site, as well as the previous approvals for the restaurants will identify the and discuss the key. Issues. and lastly, provide staff. Recommendation.

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Shabnam bista: so,, pursuant to section nine, to 11, be of the boulder revised code anytime after the execution of a development agreement, any aggrieved person may request to hearing before the planning board.

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Shabnam bista:, if they feel that the development of project is not in compliance with the approved conditions.

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Shabnam bista: in this case, gregory cast and matt hayden neighbors to the river and woods. Restaurants have allege that the operation of the restaurant us has failed to comply with the development agreement executed in 2016 and requested a hearing before the board.

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Shabnam bista:, the intent of the discussion this evening is for the board to determine whether the restaurant us has been compliance or not.. There are some potential actions that the board may take. This evening.

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Shabnam bista:, if the board finds that the restaurant did not comply with their approved conditions,, the board may revoke the use review. Approval.

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Shabnam bista: impose additional conditions or modifications to carry out the purposes of the original approval and.

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Shabnam bista: assets to the enforcement officers exploring consider administrative enforcement actions. additionally,. The board may also find that the youth is in compliance with the development agreement,, at which point no actions required.

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Shabnam bista: in terms of the public notice requirements, written notice was sent to property owners within 600 feet as well as published in the daily camera.

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Shabnam bista: to just jump in a little bit and talk about the background.. The site is located south of an adjacent pearl street between 23rd street and 24th place.

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Shabnam bista: the surrounding areas or residential across the street to the north of the property or the whittier place, condominiums.

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Shabnam, bista: and south of the property across the alley, or residential dwelling units., the site was formerly the location of john's restaurant,, beginning in.

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Shabnam bista: 1974 when the restaurant was approved as a non conforming use. The existing parking spaces did not meet current parking standards., so the site is considered non conforming as to parking.

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Shabnam bista: the previous approval for john expired,, because the restaurant had been out of operation for over a year.

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Shabnam bista: and then in terms of zoning., the site is zoned mixed use. Three.

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Shabnam bista:, which is defined as areas of the community that are changing to a mixture of residential and complimentary non residential uses generally within the same building..

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Shabnam bista: in the mp3 zone used to review approval is required per the standards to operate a restaurant over 1000 square feet and floor area or which closed after 11pm or with an outdoor seating of 300 square feet or more.

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Shabnam bista: reverend words falls under this use.

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Shabnam bista:, so they applied for a non conforming use review back in 2015 and it was approved in january of 2016. The size was limited to 1892 square feet and.

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Shabnam bista: there are 65 indoor and outdoor seats and then part of the approval.. There was also a management plan which indicated, or listed all the operational characteristics such as parking.. So there was a.

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Shabnam bista: addition of an accessible parking to the back of the property,. The management plan also approved.

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Shabnam bista: a periodic acoustic music performances.. There were some delivery.

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Shabnam bista: protocols, and then alcohol policy, as well as neighborhood outreach strategies and then in 2016 later in the year.. The restaurant got in approval for a minor modification to the backyard,, which included.

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Shabnam bista: changing turf to artificial grass.

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Shabnam bista: creating ada compatible walkway, creating long term bike parking,, as well as a raised children's play deck in the backyard area.

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Shabnam bista: and so based on the prior approval than information received by staff from the aggrieved party.

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Shabnam bista: staff has identified the key issues while they're reverend woods. Restaurants operating characteristics are in compliance with the development agreement,, in particular the conditions of approval from the non conforming use. Review.

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Shabnam bista: started analysis of the operational characteristics and focused on the following areas.. So the first one is the live music as a principal use.

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Shabnam bista:, the approved management plan indicates that the restaurant does anticipate potential for periodic acoustic music in the backyard to accompany the dining experience.. It also states at the restaurant does not intend to create a concert venue, or become a music destination for the neighborhood.

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Shabnam bista: for the emails provided by mr pass and the number of performances during the month where, during the summer, months, we're up to six times a week.

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Shabnam bista: the music performances or amplified in the backyard.. The events were advertised on event, calendars on the restaurant website.. The restaurant also used the raised platform in the backyard as the stage for the live. Music and guests were charged artist fees as part of their check.

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Shabnam bista:, the second area is parking and delivery., so the approved plans and management plan indicates one accessible, onsite parking to the south of the property adjacent to the alley and.

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Shabnam bista:, it also in case of deliveries, should not block access to the alley and should pull into a buffer space. That indicated on the plans.

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Shabnam bista: between the alley in the parking space to create enough clearance for the emails provided by mr cash and other neighbors., an airstream trailer.. So you can see in the image.

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Shabnam bista: was parked permanently in the area where the buffer,, as well as the accessible band spaces, are located., since airstream was parked in one of the accessible spots, as well as the buffer. The delivery trucks. use the alley to unload, not allowing traffic to flow through.

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Shabnam bista:, the airstream trailer was also being used to serve alcohol and and.

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Shabnam bista: provided a makeshift bar for the outside area and the pro license for the liquor license.. This is not a premised.

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Shabnam bista: area for serving alcohol.

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Shabnam bista: so in terms of site plan, changes., shabnam bista: for the minor modification that was approved. The most recent proved plans on the screen,. You can see the accessible vehicle space is located in the back of the property. and as mentioned earlier.

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Shabnam bista:, the airstream trailer was permanently park there blocking the parking space,, which was not approved.

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Shabnam bista: additionally, in terms of the site plan, changes that were not approved. The minor modification indicates a raised deck added to the back of the area as a children's play area for the photograph and emails from the neighbors. This race platform is being used as a stage.

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Shabnam bista: additional approvals to consider in this case,, starting in may of this year, the through the boulder business recovery program., the city allow temporary seating.

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Shabnam bista: expansion for restaurants into the public right away and private property to help the social distancing and allow businesses to operate safely during good 19 in june,, reverend woods apply to receive and extend expansion of their seating to them, north of the property.

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Shabnam bista: and they expanded the seating on to the public right of way in front of the restaurant.

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Shabnam bista:, the latest version of these emergency orders aim to help businesses stay open during the winter months by enhancing the outer expansion through february of 2021.

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Shabnam bista: the extension allows for temporary structures and heating elements to make outdoor socially distance seating more comfortable in the wintertime. Reverend was applied for and were issued a permit. in october of this year.

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Shabnam bista: for a temporary outdoor expansion to enlarge their existing outdoor area, seating.

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Shabnam bista: under a temporary enclosure,, such as a tent,, including some gas or propane heating elements. Part of the permit is also an approval for parking pass to the south of the property to be used. A seeding and a portion of that parking pad will be covered under the 800 square. Foot tend.

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Shabnam bista:, to be sunday, analysis of the operational characteristics staff finds that there is misuse of parking space,. The number of performances were over what would constitute, as periodic.

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Shabnam bista: and as I planned changes that were occurring were not approved, staff finds out the ribbon was restaurants. Operating characteristics are not in compliance with the development agreement and approved management plan, and that planning board adopt the following motion shown on the screen.

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Shabnam bista: and thank you for your time and I'm available to answer any questions.. We have.

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Shabnam bista: john berlin from enforcement as well to answer any specific questions that you might have. thank you.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:. Thank you shabnam great job on your first.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: word. we're happy to have you. harmon zuckerman, pb:. Can you hear your screen down so we can see everybody. yes, thank you. okay,. Then I'm going to open it up to planning board questions for.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: for members of staff or the city attorney who's here, tonight. david gear, filling in for hello., so we'll take hands, sarah.

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Sarah silver pb: shannon., thank you, so much. very nice to meet you, actually., just a quick question,. The recommendations that you all have made.. I don't don't address the non compliance. That's.

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Sarah silver pb: unrelated to the performances., at least I don't think it did., I didn't see it in the document, is, can if I'm read it correctly., can you explain why.

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Sarah silver pb: why the city did not also address those non compliance issues like the caravan in the in the parking area, just curious.

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Shabnam bista: sure. um, the,. I think the third recommendation is to have the site design and restaurant operation be consistent with the previously approved plans,, except for the temporary permits that they received under the emergency orders. For.

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Sarah silver pb: okay,, so sarah silver pb:, so does that mean that the temporary emergency orders will override until february 2021 the recommendations that you all are making.

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Sarah silver pb: yes. okay, thank. thank you.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: can., I'm not sure that harmon zuckerman, pb:, I don't want to leave it there. I'm not sure that you, sarah and shabnam were understand each other.. So were you talking about the non warming nature of the use.

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Sarah silver pb:, so I want my,. My first question was actually about the non conforming the the nonconforming elements that are not related to the music,, which is.

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Sarah silver pb: a site review issue,, but I think both.. I have a secondary question,, which is,, which I was going to get to. when we get to our discussion,, which was whether.

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Sarah silver pb:, the coven extension.

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Sarah silver pb: includes the recommendations from the city staff to reduce the number of music nights or whether that coven recommendation overrides the city's recommendations and tell the emergency order is no longer in place..

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:. So let me harmon zuckerman, pb:. Let me harmon zuckerman, pb: in for a second.. I I shop.! Now I'm gonna do this and then you tell me if, if I got this right. okay.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:, the nonconformity is our it's basically planning speak for grandfathered., and so those are not going to be taken away or address. Those are already allowed.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: under the use review. they were allowed through the non conforming use. Analysis. so,. Those kinds of things like that were listed in the staff report is being non. Conforming are not an issue.

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Sarah silver pb: well,, I'm sorry., just to the the caravan in the in the accessible parking spot.

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Sarah silver pb: was not approved as non conforming that was meant, right,, so that was.

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Sarah silver pb: that., so I was sarah silver pb:. So that was my initial question because it's not in it when I think, if I'm understanding, shopping and she's saying the sec., the third element of staff recommendations would address that once the coven emergency order is gone.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay, does that right, shut them., shabnam, bista:, yes., yeah,, yeah., harmon, zuckerman,, pb: now,. I think we're done come. From.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:, the user. yeah.

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Sarah silver pb:, so my second question has to do with whether that is also true regarding the number of nights a week that there can be. music.

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Sarah silver pb: that, even though that wasn't it., because that is also non conforming and knocking non conforming,, I'm sorry. that also.

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Sarah silver pb: does not conform to the use for the use review. um,, so my question is about that. Is that also.

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Sarah silver pb: going to be allowed to continue intel the emergency covert orders lifted.

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Shabnam bista: now, wow., shabnam, bista:, yeah,, so that,, so the only I think aspect of the recommendations is the third one.

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Shabnam bista:, I think referencing the site plan changes the parking spot specifically that that would have to go back to how it was approved after the order expires,, but not number one or two of the.

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Sarah silver pb: condition of those. I'll go into those one and two. we go into effect.

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Sarah silver pb:: if the board approves them, they would go into effect.

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Sarah silver pb: in concert with the coven emergency order. yes.

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Sarah silver pb: thank you.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay., harmon, zuckerman, pb: any other questions for staff.

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John gerstle pb: yeah, just to pursue what what sarah was talking. About., I'm still unclear whether the temporarily the temporary coby emergency orders allow the trailer to continue to be in that location.. Can you clarify that.

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Charles ferro, city of boulder :, he do janice part of the order we suspended all of the city's minimum parking requirements until the word expires in february.

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John gerstle pb: thank you.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: other questions.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: lisa.

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Lisasmith pb:, I believe I know the answer this,, but I just want to make sure I know the answer,, and that is that the kind of summer concert series with this stepped up a performance schedule has stopped. is that correct,.

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Shabnam bista: yes, according to the owner of the restaurant, they have stopped for the season.

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Lisasmith pb: well, and I guess we can see we get further comment,, but we haven't heard anything to the contrary, from people commenting on it.

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Shabnam bista:, I don't think so.

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Lisasmith pb: okay, thank you. and also welcome.

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Lisasmith pb: thank you.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: I've got a david, had his hand up., and then I saw the pizza and then john for a second bite.

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David ensign: yeah,, I just was wanted to check. There were the 16 bicycle parking spaces. Eight of them were in the back very close to where that airstream is parked, and I wanted to.

M

David ensign: just ask., do we know that that those are the those eight bicycle parking spaces were not affected by the airstream like the parking space was.

M

David ensign:, you happen to know that.

J

Shabnam bista:, I don't have information on that right. Now.

M

David ensign:, but that would fall into the category of number three. I guess since that was part of the approved.

B

Thank you., kevin love, pizza.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: yes.. My question has to do with a platform that was described as well.. The platform.

N

Lupita d montoya pb:, that was described as a children's playground.. I like to know a little bit about the history of that,. You know,. How long has it been? There has has to fulfill that.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: intended function prior to,, you know,. What happened to this summer was my understanding that that platform really became an issue.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: with a new concert.. So can you tell us a little bit about the timing of this? Was a directive for this particular thing,, or was it they're already been fulfilling a different function.

J

Shabnam bista:, I know that it was approved as part of the minor modification in 2016. I don't have any evidence as to how it was being used in the past couple of years.

J

Shabnam bista:, but just know that it was being used as part of the.

J

Shabnam bista: live performances as a makeshift stage. In the past couple of months.

N

Lupita d montoya pb:, so we don't have much evidence or has anybody made it? Maybe when we hear from the.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, the owner,, speak up a little bit of the history.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: about it, that will be good.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: thank.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, you john.

L

Yeah. john gerstle pb: with respect to the amplified music recommendation.

L

John gerstle pb: what,. What are your thoughts about? The use of a speaker amplified voice, you know, for loud speeches,, when this is being used for a wedding.

L

John gerstle pb: celebration, or something like that,, which I understand that it is occasionally done.. Are you making any recommendations about the use of of a loud speakers for that.

J

Shabnam bista:, but I don't think the recommend the recommendations include.

J

Shabnam bista: the, the microphone aspect of amplified.

J

Shabnam bista: but I, I believe.

L

John gerstle pb: is that intentional or or was it just that you didn't consider that aspect of of.

L

John gerstle pb: noise.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : jam., we didn't consider that it's it oftentimes. It is typical for an acoustic performance to have a small pa.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, you know, to amplify someone's voice so.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, that's customarily found with acoustic music., but if the board wanted to further,, you know, define that condition.. You could certainly do that. Well.

L

John gerstle pb:, what I was thinking of is more you know, speeches at wedding celebrations and stuff like that. That can get occasionally fairly loud and raucous and that's not music,, but it is amplified frequently if they have the opportunity.. So that's what I was wondering about.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder, : or yeah, we,, we are getting good making differentiation for the use of a pa, ye, therefore,, you know, speaking purposes or acoustic performances., but again,. If the board one craft conditions are on that or have a discussion about things.

L

John gerstle pb: okay.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: anyone. anyone else look into.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: yes., maybe I'm misremembering, but I'm when I saw that I have read it and in the document that they have had.

N

Lupita d, montoya, pb:, police officers or officials from the city come out and kind of inspect the level of, you know, the sound and they didn't find a, you know, to be above limit levels. Did I'm me just remembering this.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : no,, I think you're, correct and john,. Did you want to speak to the enforcement history? Because I think that the pd went out there with noise meters.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : more than wants to determine that, while the technically the noise standards weren't being violated., it was really more about the frequency of the performances.

O

Jon bergelin: yeah officers from the police department responded,. I have them responding on three different occasions in june and july on all occasions,. They did not report a violation.

O

Jon bergelin: during during their visits., they did suggest mediation between the business and the neighbors to discuss that., but no,. No formal action was taken as far as enforcement.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, so a follow up question from the previous one. with regards to the platform, and that it involves a new set of players in this, in this situation,, and that is the performers and,. You know, just kind of.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: went back to the fact that we are in very specific times. and what I'm,, what I'm doing.. If anybody has spoken to this, the performers and their perspective of what you know what goes on in this.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:- I wouldn't call it necessarily concerts,, but certainly an additional. You know issue.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:- and this and this venue. have we gotten any kind of.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: statements from the people there in terms of how those arrangements were made,, especially since the whole issue of these people getting paid.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: is to me.. Can you see innovation that this is you know why they, you know,? They call it a concert. so,, because again, paid., but even though we're not been dimmick and these people will know have been out of a job., I'm looking from the perspective of.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, you know this is something that may have been something of an emergency that maybe there was a discussion about how that should be viewed and at least get that perspective into the discussion,. I will,. I will appreciate it.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder, : yeah,, I don't think stamp, has had any direct conversation would be an artist.. So that may be a good question for the owner, operator. Tonight.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay, any other planning board questions for staff.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, if not, I'll turn it back over to shabnam and in this case.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, we don't have an applicant presentation.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, but we are providing the complainant with 15 minutes as if they were an applicant to present their issues to us.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: as evidence for our decision so.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: any other questions before we do that, okay,, charles or shabnam.

J

Shabnam bista: yeah,, I have the presentation,. I can share my screen and greg.. If you want to just. Let me know when to press the next slide.

P

Greg kass: up. sounds great.. Thank you.. Am I able to share video.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): yes,, you can.

P

Greg kass: there I am, thank you.

C

Jean gatza, staff, moderator, (she/her): and greg. I'll start. I'll start your timer and give you a little bit of a warning, with about two minutes. Left.

P

Greg kass: oh, sure. and do I have an additional minute to respond to some of the comments that were just made, or should I incorporate that into my presentation.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: greg,. You should incorporate that into your presentation. now,. If there's any.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: public comment., harmon zuckerman, pb: around this. At the end, you can have an additional three minutes to respond. if you feel any need to do that. but see,, but if you want to respond to some planning boards questions, you should do that in your in your time. Now.

B

Greg kass: thanks., I'm.

P

Greg kass:, I will my 15 minute presentation. thank you, shabnam.. My name is greg. Today is my birthday,, and I was also admitted to a member to the member of the colorado bar this afternoon,, and yet this matter is of the utmost importance to me that I chose to dedicate my evening to it slide. Please.

P

Greg kass:, you must find the river and woods violated their greg kass: use agreement, mr diner admits as much in his letter to the dla beverage licensing authority, which I admitted as exhibit three.

P

Greg kass:, really. What this hearing is about is determine what the remedy is going to be, whether it's going to be to allow him to carry on and to use his and.

P

Greg kass: to use his violations as the benchmark moving forward or whether you're going to enforce the letter of his use agreement and also the policy behind the zoning ordinance.

P

Greg kass:, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to talk about the permissible uses of this land,. Mr diners use review.

P

Greg kass: I'm going to tell two quick stories., I'm going to talk about the proposed conditions and I'm going to also talk about mr diners, nine in applicable defenses and make a closing remark slide. Please.

P

Greg kass:, so this property is mixed zone. Three under boulder municipal code., there's no temporary outdoor entertainment allowed zero,. The statute defines that musical performances are included. so to be clear,. The previous restaurant on this property was allowed zero musical performances.

P

Greg kass: and they did not even attempt to have musical performances. the reason for that is clear.

P

Greg kass: at that time,, this property was surrounded on one side by residential houses during mr diners time.. Now the property is surrounded on two sides by residential dwellings.

P

Greg kass: slide please., so what changed. well, mr diners use review with hundreds of pages which I've read through everyone mostly focused on parking.

P

Greg kass: there was zero discussion at that time about music.. There was some language in his use review about it., but it was never discussed.

P

Greg kass: either by the neighbors or this board.. He promised the neighbors and you that he would not create a concert venue of anytime.

P

Greg kass: that any music would be periodic that he would not promote this place is a live music destination.

P

Greg kass: he also guaranteed that the alley would be free and clear for loading and unloading, because there'd be a five foot buffer onto his property.

P

Greg kass:. He also said that there would be a parking spot. so to answer the peters question. this. Actually, the parking where the trailer is actually has to be moved five feet back, because where it's currently parked according to the map,, which was also one of my exhibits., I think seven or eight.

P

Greg kass:, it's actually parked in where his unloading zone is right. Now., it's not parked on his accessible parking, spot.

P

Greg kass: slide please., so what actually happens. well, immediately after he got, he engaged in the development agreement. he permanently placed the airstream trailer in the accessible parking spot that happened in 2016.. So this is not code related this,. This happened, immediately.

P

Greg kass: and that's,, and you can see my exhibits for reference,, which I sent to you and trail. The slots.

P

Greg kass:, the trailer was illegal us to serve alcohol beverage. Licensing authority shut that down when it was brought to their attention recently.. He also sets up a large tense to host.

P

Greg kass: events, weddings bar mitzvahs, kids in the air, as these sorts of things in the backyard,, which are extremely loud.. This is all dating back to 2016 slide please.

P

Greg kass: and about that children's play back another good question.. It's not a children's play back.

P

Greg kass:, so he obtained this through an administrative model, minor modification just six months after.

P

Greg kass: receiving approval. so why.. Why did he do this.? Why didn't you do the six months earlier. and why didn't he call it a stage.

P

Greg kass: well, the answer that is obvious. if he told the neighbors and you in 26, when, during his initial review, that he wanted to build a stage and host concerts, three nights, a week.

P

Greg kass: with guitars with microphones in front of them., the neighbors would have had a fit and there's zero chance that this board would have allowed that to happen.

P

Greg kass:, and yet the proposed remedy tonight is essentially granting him permission for that to happen.

P

Greg kass:, no parent would ever let their kid play on this thing because it doesn't have railings. he's promised you that he would provide railings on this thing., but of course, that never happened because stages don't have railings.. So it's not a children's play. Deck., that's pretty silly slide. Please.

P

Greg kass: so,, mr diner, has admitted the following. he's hired a concert. Promoter. there's the website says: there's a party every night of the week. Seven live amplified music performances and he holds it out to the public as a venue space.. This is not in dispute slide. Please.

P

Greg kass: so even before the pandemic,, mr diner is hosting events, four out of six nights per week. once again, if he just close this to you up front end to the neighbors and 2016.

P

Greg kass: there's zero chance that anyone would have allowed this greg kass:, considering what was done on this property,, how the property has changed, and the proximity. the neighbors, lisa, who's, going to speak. Her veterans 30 feet from this place.

P

Greg kass:, so even when mr. pharaoh says that acoustic music sometimes comes with the small amplifier., that's 30 feet from someone's bedroom that has to work and phd students that are going to school.

P

Greg kass: slide please.. The first time I talked to mr diner.. He named drop various people from the town.. He stated that he had the town's permission and.

P

Greg kass:- and he was bragging to me in person about how he was going to do the same thing out of the reservoir,, except for the pesky neighbors that were trying to stand in his way.. Why he bragged about this is a big mystery to me.

P

Greg kass:, but I wouldn't have found out about it, otherwise.

P

greg kass:. I told him that I thought it was unbelievable that he had permission to do what he was doing. and I asked for proof. and I said, josh.. If you have proof that you can do., you can host this many concerts on this stage.

P

Greg kass: and on a stage. I'll apologize to you,, but if you don't have permission., then I want you to stop and he never provided a any documentation.. It took me months to get this from the town.

P

Greg kass: slide. Please. Mr diner has nine and applicable defenses. you're, going to hear a version of all of them., so make sure you listen to them. he's going to say that he had to do it.

P

Greg kass: necessity, which is not true., there are no other. Every business in town would like to ignore this board.. I hate to tell you guys this,, but every business in town would like to just do whatever they want and ignore this board.

P

Greg kass:, regardless of where they are,, but everyone doesn't only mr diner has ignored this boards recommendations and made material misrepresentations to this board in order to gain permission to do so.

P

Greg kass:, he claims he didn't know what he was doing.. He also claims that he bent over backwards to accommodate people. Specifically me, he offered me abandoned restaurant space.

P

Greg kass: to essentially live in or work in or study in which he thinks bolsters his case.. But let me phrase it this way.

P

Greg kass:, if I told you that I was going to create such a nuisance in your backyard, that your kids couldn't go to school.

P

Greg kass: that you couldn't sleep when you needed to, because you might be a shift worker and that you basically just couldn't use your house as you intended., but don't worry,. You could use this abandoned.

P

Greg kass:, you could use this abandoned warehouse that I have.. I think that that would bolster your case against me.. I don't think that that's in mr diners favor.

P

Greg kass:. He also asks you to feel bad for him in various ways,. I think, if there's going to be a contest of empathy between the neighbors and mr diner., he will most certainly lose. and if we wanted to adjudicate that and another hearing.

P

Greg kass:, we could have all the people that are paying rent in small rundown apartments that are working, people that live behind him.

P

Greg kass: and then we could have them way against mr diner and the seven llc is, or so that are registered to his $1.5 million home. That I'm sure he sleeps very well at just outside of town.

P

Greg kass: he's also claimed in various communications to the board vla and may that, while I stopped the issues over the issues. move. move., there's no reason to do. Anything.

P

Greg kass: and- and that's just not true, because he could restart this at any time and it took a year. well,. I don't know 678 months to get this process to where we are now. he's also a dash. oh,. So you referenced in his letter that he's made charitable contributions.

P

Greg kass:, which is, I think, greg kass:, totally irrelevant. and I think in appropriate that you would even consider that or that he would think that that was okay to include in a letter to this board.. He also claims that the concert series was a very recent idea which is not true.

P

Greg kass: slide. Please greg kass:. My final conversation with mr diner., I said, josh,. I have the papers in hand,. You cannot be doing what you're doing.

P

Greg kass:: are you just going to vote.? Are you going to voluntarily stop terrorizing the neighbors.

P

Greg kass: because we need to sleep people trying to go to school people work all day and they want to be able to have a quiet dinner.. They don't want to be listening to blue grass.

P

Greg kass: 30 feet from where they're having dinner. are you going to voluntarily stop as you should,, or? Are you just going to wait for the town to shut you down or just continue until the weather gets cold.

P

Greg kass:- and he has had no response to that. The latter has turned out to be true,, it got cold, the concert series ended the beverage licensing board and you have been breathing down his neck., so it kind of fizzled out.

P

Greg kass: slide please.. So a note about the proposed remedy. so,, so the proposed remedy says no amplified. music.

P

Greg kass:, that's axiomatic and obvious. of course,. There should be no amplified music,, they're working people and and people with kids that live right by this place, and you really can't. it's a terrible place for amplified. music.

P

Greg kass:, and so the second point is period- allows periodic acoustic, music, three nights, a week.

P

Greg kass: now mr diner shares the same definition, as mr. farrow that acoustic music, which is acoustic music, is just,. It's not an electric guitar., it's just when you have an acoustic guitar.

P

Greg kass: that you put a microphone in front of., and so that's very puzzling to me, because that basically is electric music. and so the monitoring costs of this.

P

Greg kass: are are extremely high. basically,, the problem.

P

Greg kass: is that the police have to go out here and measure the sound, and, let me let me be clear. the police when they measure the sound. they've been called six times at least six times and on multiple occasions.

P

Greg kass:, they have said that they just don't have access to a decibel meter.. So when you say they've only been called three or four times.

P

Greg kass:, that's just the times that the police have shown up with a decibel meter and made a recording of it. there's been countless other times, dating back to 2016.

P

Greg kass: we're police officers,, just don't want to be bothered with this and either say they don't have a decibel meter or perhaps actually don't have access to it.. The other thing I want to say about the noise is that every time.

P

Greg kass:, the noise has been measured. The police's interpretation and code enforcement has told me through the police that they measure it via the commercial.

P

Greg kass: limit., so there are people that live 30, feet away,, but instead of measuring it from the residential limit., they use the much higher commercial decibel in it. Because the argument is.

P

Greg kass:, the sound is coming from the commercial premises. now,, whether that's a correct interpretation or not.. I don't really know,, but every time that we've gotten the decibel reading that's been that's been the rationale.

P

Greg kass: and then the other thing I want to say about the remedy is this is more permissive than the original than the original. use agreement,, which seems to me to be an absurdity.

P

Greg kass:, I can't really understand how how in in a quasi judicial hearing this body, would have the authority and really the prudence, to grant a more more leeway to mr diner.. Then he was allowed in the first instance.. That seems pretty remarkable to me., but please.

P

Greg kass: though, I'd like to make a couple closing remarks.

P

Greg kass: you know, every., there's a lot of hand wringing in boulder about affordable housing,, but I think that that just doesn't really matter if it's not livable so.

P

Greg kass:, you know,, if you're sick in the hospital and you're and you're being taken care of by a nurse and I'm a registered nurse.. I worked at bch for a while.

P

Greg kass:, if you're being taken care of by a nurse and they're working night shift, as I often did, because I worked all chefs, because they're persistently short staffed.

P

Greg kass:, I want you to think about whether how that nurse slept during the day. Was that nurse able to sleep,, or will they listening to loud music sort of whenever mr diner wanted to charge a cover for it.

P

Greg kass: yeah. I'd also asked,. How would you like to leave behind this restaurant.? Is there any member of the board that we think that it was acceptable to live behind us, there, really only three categories of housing and boulder.

P

Greg kass: their student housing which,, you know,, I don't want to call it a slum,, but it's really not wear white and blue collar workers want to be living.

P

Greg kass: and then their houses. they're, valued at over 100,000 to a million. and then there's this kind of this in between category and we're talking about the in between category tonight. and so.

P

Greg kass:, really what you're deciding is? What do we want to do with this in between category. the,, the town code says no musical performances.

P

Greg kass: mr diner slipped in this language, into his use agreement that no one ever contemplated about, you know, periodic promising not to be a concert venue,, but three nights: a week. I mean,.

P

Greg kass: with amplified music based on sort of whatever decibel he thinks is tolerable. Whatever hours he thinks is tolerable, that just can't be right.. That's remarkable transformation,, considering that this neighborhood has become more residential,, not less..

P

Greg kass: and mr diners never apologize incredulously.. He said that he's proud of what he's done. so he's already admitted to violating his use agreement.. So there's really not a question about that. once again, the question is, what to do. Moving forward.

P

Greg kass:, it would be one thing if he apologized or said, hey,, you know,. We really need to host one or two concerts a week during this difficult time. He hasn't said that.

P

Greg kass: he said, quite the opposite. and then the legal arguments. I've already went through and.

P

Greg kass: the remedy.. I think that I've pretty,, I think I've pretty much hammer that home, that you really need to define acoustic music, because if an acoustic music means an acoustic guitar with the microphone in front of it.,.

P

Greg kass: dennis hearing is kind of a big waste of time. and we really haven't done anything.

P

Greg kass:: I think that those are all the.

P

Greg kass: all the comments that like to make at that time.

P

Greg kass:, I preserve the last two minutes of my time.. If anyone has any questions for me.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, already planning board members who have a question for the applet for for the completed.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):- that's that was the end of time.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. We can ask questions, even after the end of time.. If we have any clarifying questions that we need to ask. so I, I'd asked you.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: only to ask the complainant a question: if you have something you need to have clarified to help, you make your decision.. So are there any planning board members that need that.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: peter you you're, looking like you may.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: unmute, please.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, thank you for getting that I've unmuted.. I appreciate that addressable. My concert.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. Sorry pizza froze up to,. If you can hear me.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. Can you hear me.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, yes. okay.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: start from the beginning. You froze.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: oh, okay., lupita d, montoya pb:, so you didn't hear my. thank you. I,. You know, addressing some of my concerns already on my questions.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:. The next thing is, I'm wondering in terms of you're expressing all these.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: stories help, but also,, I'm wondering, is also your intention to represent all their neighbors who have similar grievances or concerns and,, you know,. If so,, could you give me a sense of,, you know,? How many ignore people are we talking about.

P

Greg kass: yeah,, that's a great question., so.

P

Greg kass: my bar life, my bar number, gets mailed to me this morning., so most certainly not with representing anyone in the legal capacity, either before or now..

P

Greg kass:, all the concerns are basically unified. There are, there's a house that has four phd students,. Their main concerns are parking.

P

Greg kass: because the trailer is parked on the loading and unloading zone., and so when delivery trucks come.

P

Greg kass:, their parking spot is on the backside of their building., and so the delivery trucks completely blocking their parking and they can't get to class. That's their main concern. That least turned over, over the summer.

P

Greg kass: the people that were there before they probably had some complaints about the music,, but not much., and then, as for the other building.

P

Greg kass: there are about four or five people there about four or five people that.

P

Greg kass: have all the same: identical concerns the real nub of it is,, I'm the only one that went to law school and they plowed through the hundreds of pages of documents pertaining to their use review.. So the real issue, is,, is everyone, has the same complaints.

P

Greg kass: people would call the police and given up people, have called the town and given up, and so.

P

Greg kass:, I don't purport to represent all the interests of people,, but really I'm the only person that has been able to get in front of this board.

P

Greg kass: and to look up what the permissible uses were, what the historic use was and how it came to be that mr diner built a children's play back without around.

P

Greg kass: so yeah,, I don't represent everyone's interests,, but I'm really the only person that was that sort of has the ability to at least raise the to at least know what mr diner shouldn't shouldn't be dealing.. The first time I talked to him, he said.

P

Greg kass:, he has full permission from the town, any name dropped in food,. You know, very influential people in town.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, everything., away., harmon, zuckerman,, pb:, thanks, greg., appreciate that.. Did that answer your question,, the pizza.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay. great. thanks. any other questions for greg that you need clarification on before we can deliberate lisa.

D

Lisasmith pb: I'll just follow up on the peters question.. So greg, do you have an estimate about of about how many neighbors. you've heard complaints from.

P

Greg kass: yeah.

P

Greg kass: yeah yeah, that's six greg kass: and as to the number., I also want to say that balancing the number of people that are upset versus how many people, mr diner next happy or employees is not a permissible consideration that that decision was made into one or before.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay, anybody else with questions.

H

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, good., thanks, greg, you'll have three more minutes at the end of public comment. If you need it., but it's really meant as a rebuttal. Period.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so I'm going to turn it back to gene gets our staff moderator.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: gene.. Do we have any members of the public want to speak with water.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, I know that we do do,. Is this the time or the.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): property owner. do we,. Do we have another presentation.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, that's true,, my fault.. I was not thinking properly.. Usually we only have one applicant., I'm sorry.. We get into a rut.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so here we have a completed and we have a respondent. and we need to give the respondent some time. so,. I am sorry about that., and that was not meant as a slight in any way.. That was just me on autopilot. and I apologize for that. so gene. If, if.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. If we have a time., I don't believe we're treating mr diner. as a member of the public and limiting him to three minutes.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, but we didn't discuss how much time he is going to be given.. So if I can ask david gear., if you would tell me as a respondent. how much time mr. steiner is entitled to I'd, appreciate that.

Q

David gehr:, I think it would be safe to give him the same amount of time that you gave mr cass.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, okay, then gene.. Can you get a 15 minute clock ready and mr diner respond to the complaint.

J

Shabnam bista:, I have jean gatza, staff, moderator, (she/her):, yeah., shabnam bista:. I have the presentation. ready for mr diner., so if you want to just similarly to the previous presentation,, just let me know when to change the slides.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, mr diner., you can unmute yourself and turn on your video. If you wish.

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Josh dinar:, can you hear me.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, we can all start.

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Josh dinar: all right,, thanks for allowing me the chance to speak tonight., I'm josh diner partner at river and woods,, together with my wife, kate, diner and chef, daniel asher,.

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Josh dinar:, along with our staff, we've, worked very, very hard and invested deeply on many levels to make our restaurant, something that's special for boulder.

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Josh dinar:, when we took over the space that formerly house john's restaurant for four decades, we gladly improve the property.

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Josh dinar: spending a lot of money in loans on meaningful upgrades to things like ada access, bringing electric plumbing and energy efficiencies up to code,. But we also endured.

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Josh dinar: and often maddening, jungle of red tape and bureaucracy that exploded. our most conservative timelines and budgets.. It was not easy to open river and woods.

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Josh dinar:, but this place is our home. we're raising our kids in the kitchen., the same way that our landlords raise their kids in that kitchen.

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Josh dinar:, this hearing is forced us to revisit the original plan we submitted for our use review., it's a document that we wrote when that plan was little more than a series of best guesses. and honestly,. It was amazing to see just how true to it. we've been. We don't take a challenge to it. Lightly.

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Josh dinar: the board packet contains, are written description of our operations over the past several months,, but I'd like to read it. now is it outlines our perspective of and arguments against, the complaints at hand,, most accurately.? If you can put the second slide, please.

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Do we have a slide.

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Shabnam bista: I'm just having some trouble.

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Josh dinar: it's okay, well, first, let me say that our mission as a restaurant is to enhance the community., and so it does trouble us that our operations this summer disturbed a neighbor in any way.

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Josh dinar: operations that river and woods have remained in place without changed, since we opened in september 2016 until this past spring, when the emergency order forced us to close down completely.

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Josh dinar: in a single day and mid march 2020, we had the furlough most of our staff and completely change our business model. Virtually overnight.

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Josh dinar: our revenue decreased instantly by over 80% for nearly three months,. Those of us left their work 80 hour weeks, feeding our staff and their families in need on a daily basis, making meals for frontline workers and worrying over our health and the health of our families..

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Josh dinar:, while everyone around us stayed safe at home., we packed grocery bags for our community and handed out toilet paper and staples to our regular guests.. We all have kids at home., daniel's wife was eight months pregnant. At the time bills piled up. We were sure we were going to lose the restaurant.

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Josh dinar:, thanks to sba payroll loans, were able to make it through the closures and reopen on june 1. After closing, down entirely for two weeks to rehire, a staff implement new technology.

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Josh dinar: apply for expanded seating through boulders temporary modification program. Build a temporary patio by hand, rearrange the dining room and outdoor space for social distancing, purchase, p p.

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Josh dinar: train staff on new health, procedures, move the kitchen to our outdoor space and revamp the entire menu to accommodate the safety measure.

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Josh dinar:, we as owners, did all of this on a volunteer basis as the business continued to burn through the federal loan and the cash reserves, we'd built over the prior three years..

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Josh dinar:, our restaurant is generally a popular location for private summer events such as small weddings and rehearsal dinners,, because our backyard, because of our backyard seating, area.

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Josh dinar: this summer,. All of these events were cancelled due to health requirements. We returned thousands and deposits and cross hundreds of thousands and expected revenue off the ledger.

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Josh dinar:, which brings us to our decision to celebrate a reopening of the restaurant community for the summer with a change in programming.

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Josh dinar:, we have a regular guest who represents a number of talented and professional musicians,. All of them found themselves out of their usual summer work this year as well.

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Josh dinar:, we worked with this guest to line up a series of acoustic artists to play, evenings from 530 to 630 and 745 to 845 tuesday through sunday.

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Josh dinar: we added an artist fee to guests checks,, which allowed us to pay the musician.. It bears saying that we passed along all proceeds from these fees to the artists and agent.

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Josh dinar: in prior summers, we'd had music, about three nights a week and a periodic private events. We recognize that we're in a mixed use, area, and we were cognizant of reasonable, sound limits,. Even before we learned of the neighbors frustration began. next slide.

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Josh dinar: that the the neighbor that ultimately contacted us as greg cast.. We spent much time much time personally talking to mr cast on the phone in person and via text.

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Josh dinar: in an effort to make sure that they were doing everything that we could to accommodate him,. These are the steps that we took in the course of those conversations.

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Josh dinar:, we began the summer doing one night a week of live comedy. This particularly bothered mr cast., so we canceled the entire series.

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Josh dinar:, we limited amplification to a single speaker and turn the volume down to the lowest level possible.

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Josh dinar:, we move the speaker to a far end of the outdoor area and check the volume level at mr casters property during each show.

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Josh dinar:, we worked with the police officers that were called on several occasions during artistic performances by mr casts and confirmed with them that the noise levels were well within the reasonable person standard.

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Josh dinar:, we set our standard internally as a level where a sitting a table sitting anywhere in the yard could have a normal conversation without raising voices at all..

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Josh dinar: unrequested, mr cast, we trialed completely unplugging amplification,, to see if this would work. unfortunately,. It was so quiet than that. It was inaudible to guests, and not worth it for the artists.

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Josh dinar: lastly,, mr cash informed us that he was studying for the bar exam and because of coven had lost his ability to study outside of the apartment.

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Josh dinar: and we went as far as providing a private office for him to use his leisure so that you could study and our work without being disturbed..

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Josh dinar:, which he gladly accepted mr cast, agreed to the office space and indicated that this was an appropriate compromised. He requested complete silence in the days before his actual exam and we cancelled the shows because of his request.

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Josh dinar:, which involve inconveniencing those artists and calling dozens of reservations to inform them of the change.

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Josh dinar:, we were under the impression that the matter had been settled for the summer until we received notice from the blm that a complaint had been filed.

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Josh dinar: the police sergeant,, who was originally working to mitigate the concern, advised us before we made any of the concessions listed above.

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Josh dinar: that we should continue with the program as it was while he checked with the city attorney as to what we were allowed to do, and the board has a copy of that email. String.

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Josh dinar:, we never heard back after this until notification of the formal complaint,, which was further indication to us that we had satisfied, mr cast, go to the next slide. Please.

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Josh dinar: to be clear,. We are not and have never been, a music venue.. We are a full service restaurant that has offered live music during service until this past season. That has been about three times per week for some private events.

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Josh dinar: we've had zero bar seating or walk up bar service. Since the pandemic began, no reasonable person who's been to our restaurant would describe the environment as anything other than completely mellow.. There is just no gray in that description.. It has never once even veered towards rowdy.

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Josh dinar:, we have not heard a single complaint from the neighbors directly to the south of the property, from any of the condos to the southwest or from any of the condos on the western property line.

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Josh dinar: music series is over,, as has been referenced,, and it has been since mid september as originally planned.

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Josh dinar:, it was not meant to be an ongoing event,, but a special way to get through these incredibly challenging and unique times,. We do not currently plan to revisit it next season,, assuming we make it to next season.

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Josh dinar: lastly, mr. katz also indicated to us that he plans to move out of the apartment and that unless his plans have changed., he is apparently no longer a current tenant or neighbor of the of the restaurant.

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Josh dinar: regardless,. We believe that we're being as responsible and reasonable as possible,, given a desire to prove to provide a community amenity.

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Josh dinar:, and it is our sincere hope that the board looks at the four year history of river and woods.

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Josh dinar: are very active community involvement, ongoing charitable contributions, commitment to sustainability and positivity and inclusive culture, and a truly tireless effort to do our part to make boulder a better place to live..

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Josh dinar: and come to a reasonable conclusion.. The fact of the matter is that we're proud. We are proud of what we did. This summer.

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Josh dinar:, we made thousands of people a little happier providing a uniquely boulder experience in a responsible way.

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Josh dinar: paid local farmers for good food, returned our staff to a means of employment, and we did our honest best to reasonably compromise with what we thought was a single neighbor and we as owners, did it without any hope of compensation..

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Josh dinar:, we open this restaurant to short, kids, what it means to be part of a community, and there is not much we would change.

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Josh dinar: in full transparency,, though we are exhausted and we are on the financial bring particularly going into this winter.

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Josh dinar:, and if this hearing, results in further economic hardship,, then we may very well not have it in us to continue.

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Josh dinar:, which would be a we think, an incredible.

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Josh dinar: disservice to the community.

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josh dinar:, my wife, kate, and I have lived in boulder for over two decades. We co, founded boulders restaurant week, have sat on multiple boards have volunteered in the community and raised our kids here.

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Josh dinar: our business partner chef, daniel asher, is a nationally renowned champion of sustainable food, a prolific giver of his time and talents,. A local causes.

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Josh dinar: and wonder boulders most important, culinary assets.. What I can say with absolute certainty is that we have run this business with all of our integrity and heart and always at the very least,, in the spirit of our original written mission and approved use.

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Josh dinar: a moving, go to the sorry. This is the right side.

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Josh dinar: I'd like to finish by briefly responding to each of the alleged non compliant actions outlined in the board. Packet. the first and it seems primary complaint- is about noise.

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Josh dinar: it's been witnessed and documented by several officers of the boulder pd,, including sergeant robin hold stock and apparently by mr pharaoh himself on separate unannounced visits that the noise level,, both by decibel level and reasonable person standard we're compliant with ordinance..

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Josh dinar: we've had no complaints from any of the other. Many immediate neighbors.

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Josh dinar:, the music enhance the dining experience was never once the source of a problem, and we would argue that it was a net benefit to the community.. We do acknowledge that six days per week does not fall into the definition of periodic.

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Josh dinar: next line.

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Josh dinar:, so I don't know if you're able to,, if you're able to play this,. But we do have a video of an actual performance from one of the nights that mr cast called the police to report. A not noise violation. and if you're able to play that from there..

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Josh dinar:, it gives a pretty good sense of what a typical performance was like,, so that the board could see that.

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Shabnam bista:, I don't think I'm able to play that.

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Josh dinar: not able to um, am I able to share my screen because I would be able to do that.

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David gehr: and he shared his screen.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): yes,, if that is okay with the board.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:, but I'd like to see that.

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harmon zuckerman, pb:. That evidence.. Can you hear me.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: again, so.. So why don't we pull down the presentation now shabnam and gene.? If you can allow the responded to share his screen.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her):, you should be able to do that.

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Josh dinar:, I just need to pull up the actual video.

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Josh dinar:, it's just the 32nd video, so.

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Josh dinar: yet, okay.

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josh dinar:, so this is the video begins in right in front of mr cass's department..

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Josh dinar:, so that is again just a sample of the kind of performance that you would see.

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Josh dinar: um,, and, again, we've had multiple visits from from police and and other city officials that would that were unannounced that would, I believe.

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Josh dinar: agree that that is representative of the kind of performances that we were that are being represented. Here.

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Josh dinar:, so we can go to the next slide.

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Josh dinar: this slide,, the next one after this. yeah.. The second concern is around parking and delivery.

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Josh dinar: in this mr. cast says that an airstream trailer was permanently parked in the one band, accessible onsite parking and was being used as alcohol storage and a bar.

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Josh dinar: and the delivery trucks are blocking the alley. Access for neighbors vehicles because of the airstream trailer.

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Josh dinar: and our responses that until this summer that airstream trailer has lived primarily as decoration to the north of that parking pad, leaving about 10 feet of the concrete pad or more about 15 feet of the concrete pad area open.

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Josh dinar:, it was moved to the current location at the edge of the at the edge of the pad for in june to allow extra space for social distancing between tables. This summer.

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Josh dinar: deliveries do come down the alley and we have instructed them to not block driveways for the short time,. They are parked there. there's one black driveway. that that has tend to get blocked that we always let people know not to.

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Josh dinar:, as long as that driveway is not blocked and while through traffic might be inhibited during that time, tenants are always able to access side streets to either the west or the east of their properties..

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Josh dinar: and we have as also referenced, received approval for temporary modification under the emergency orders. The formula allows us to use this parking pad space until the modification expired in the last slide. Eight.

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Josh dinar:: this is the complaint that the approved site plan labels. the rays platform as a children's play deck.. I'm honestly not sure where we see the non compliant action applied in this matter, children play on that deck,. Quite often.

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Josh dinar:, contrary to mr cass's assertions.. Our use does state that we use that. We plan to use the backyard for public and private gatherings and alfresco dining.

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Josh dinar: putting musicians on the platform or on the platform or having couples recite bows on it or allowing people to dine on it does not seem to be precluded by the state of us. and then lastly,.

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Josh dinar: finally, we'd like to respond to, and also get some clarity around the state and stamp findings in the packet as, as mentioned,. We do acknowledge that we that we temporarily exceeded the periodic music definition.. This past summer.

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Josh dinar: had we first seen the events of this year. back in 2015 we might have requested and likely would have been granted approval to have music to accompany outdoor meal service live. Music was never an issue or concern during our original use. Review.

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Josh dinar:, given, however, that that was not the case,. We agree that until we can request a formal modification to that cause that live music, no more than three times per week is a fair definition of the agreement and we're also an agreement to live music explicitly and no later than 9pm.

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Josh dinar: again,: it's our understanding that mr cast is no longer a tenant at the property.. I don't know that for a fact., but that was his assertion.

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Josh, dinar: and- and we also agree that only acoustic instruments should be allowed, similar to how we kept our music, always within the decibel and reasonable person limit throughout this summer, and that we reduce the number going forward, unless other otherwise explicitly. Approved..

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Josh dinar: and lastly,. We of course agree that the site, design and restaurant operations should be consistent for the approved plans, as stated,. So thank you for your time and.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): thank you,, mr diner.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay. harmon zuckerman, pb:, he froze,, but I think he froze just after he said. Thank you so sounds like mr diner was just about done.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: all right. harmon zuckerman, pb:. Then let's do harmon zuckerman, pb:. If there are any board questions of the responded, before we go to public comment now would be the time to ask those.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: sarah and I don't know. sarah silver pb: mr diner, can see if josh mr diner is, can hear me.. Can you hear me.

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Sarah silver pb: up., it's not gonna matter.. He can't hear me. so.

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Sarah silver pb:, but sarah silver pb:, maybe I'll, wait until we go to board discussion. okay.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: any other questions that need to be answered in order to help us delivery.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay,, then let's go to public comment.

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harmon zuckerman, pb: gene. Do we haven't jean gatza, staff, moderator, (she/her):, hello, you oh harmon, zuckerman, pb: before we do that, harmon zuckerman, pb: this time, diners back on, sarah.! If you want to ask your question: now.

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Sarah silver pb: thanks. so,, mr diner., I'm just curious, the.

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Sarah silver pb: letter,, you got from the beverage licensing board just what what? What was the content of that letter.

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Josh dinar:, the content was a a hearing and mr casts requested to to raise some some concerns. his,. His main concern has been always along the, the,, the mean,. I think that he would agree along the.

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Josh dinar: the noise issue, and he was looking for relief in his words from the noise issue and so and so submitted that issue to the to the vla.

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Josh dinar:, at which point they looked at, at josh dinar:, some unrelated,, you know, issues,, mostly related to the to the trailer bar, which we're working through with them right. Now.

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Sarah silver pb: um, so did the sarah silver pb: beverage licensing agency make a ruling on your about the. Was there an outcome or are you guys in negotiation? What's going on.

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Josh dinar: yeah, there's, there is, there is no. There was. There was some confusion on our part about where the license.

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Josh dinar:, where the license ended on you know, in that parking pad. we had always had the trailer., as I mentioned at the at off of the pad at the front it within our license premise and moved it.

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Josh dinar: unknowingly moved it in june and and moved it back to the, you know, to the back end there. so,. So there was some. There was some concerning question about that. so,.

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Josh dinar: in working with them. What the answer is, I don't know exactly where that sits right, now, other than.

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Josh dinar: other than it's not out of code right, now. um,. They told us what we were able to and not able to do and- and we made some immediate remedies.

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Sarah silver pb: oh, okay. thank you. yeah.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: david can go ahead.

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David ensign: yeah. thank you,. Mr. mr diner., I was just.

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David ensign: wondering,, your proposal with regards to conditions, would be to.

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David ensign: continue to allow amplified.. Can you just speak to why amplify fight is important to your overall.

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David ensign: vision of how how things work back there. is it or whether or not amplified, would be.

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David ensign: possible.

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Josh dinar: we so again it depends on the definition of the amplified. so,. So we completely agree that there should be no no electric music.

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Josh dinar: electric instruments, so amplification of acoustic music is really the only way that that you can hear it at all., and the example that I showed is is is again a very applicable.

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Josh dinar: example of what that of what that means.. So we did mr cast asked us as part of the negotiation. During the many conversations we had with him and said, you know,, can you just try unplugging it all together, and we actually did that we did it for about three nights in a row.

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Josh dinar: and we had it didn't, it didn't work at all.. You couldn't hear anything.

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David ensign: thank you., josh dinar:, yeah, sure.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: any other questions for the respondent.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: pizza.

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Lupita d montoya pb: yes,, going back to the issue of frequency on this artistic.

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Lupita d montoya pb: evenings lupita d: montoya pb:. Is it your intention to have summer frequency of these events to go back to six nights a week, or is it clear that these was really all related to the situation with covet. and again,? From what I read the.

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Lupita d, montoya pb:- maybe I was reading between the lines., but my understanding was that it was, as you express sort of things that you haven't done. Before. know like providing food for your workers and other people.. Similarly, I interpret it the way you described this as your way to support.

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Lupita d, montoya pb: a sector of our community that was impacted. also, and if you can speak a little bit to that, I will really appreciate it.

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Josh dinar: yeah, no, thank you.. Thank you for interpreting it that way,, because that is exactly how it came. About, like I said,, we have a. We have a regular guest who.

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Josh dinar:, who represents a number of these musicians, who came to us and said, these people that have the steady work, typically throughout the summer,. All of that work evaporated.. This is a great place.. You know,, they had a you had been there when we had our periodic music in summers. Past.

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Josh, dinar:, and- and is this something that we could do to help you know to help, give them something to do return, a sense of normalcy and get them and get them a paycheck. so, that that is how,. How the whole thing began.

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Josh dinar: and then as to the frequency, yes our,, you know,, our initial intention was that this was a one time. Thing., like I said, we have. Typically, our summers are.

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Josh dinar: are in the backyard, are filled with some private events on there's, there's often a lot of a lot of backyard buyouts. All of those events also were cancelled this summer., so we did want to do something just completely different and had the opportunity to do it other than.

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Josh dinar: by mr cass's estimation.. It was a.

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Josh dinar: an incredibly rousing success., the our guests loved it,, the musicians loved it., the neighbors that I've spoken to loved it, other than again, other than mr casts and and a couple of his co complaints from that, from that building.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: excuse me.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: hello,, I think we've got our question answered. Correctly. thank you.

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Sir, harmon zuckerman, pb: and the other.

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Josh dinar: okay, um, mr. zimmerman I I did. I got cut off., I'm not sure where I got cut off., but I did want to just. There was some that there was an assertion. um,. There were several assertions,, but one in particular that mr cast me- and I just want to make sure that I got on record as far as.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: unary mr. you're, going to get a chance, mr diner to rebut so just write that down and during rebuttal, you can make that this is our,. Our chance now is planning board members to get clarifying questions out.

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Josh dinar: you're saying thank you. okay.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:, all right, so now we'll have public comment and then to rebuttal periods.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, you harmon., so we have, um, for community members on using one laptop that will will tee up first.. It's allison cauthen, laken gouda on your draft process and julia romero,, and I apologize for pronunciations.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): and then I think we lost.. We also have lisa hello, lisa, spalding, surely schaller.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): and I think we may have. nope. nope., it looks like kristin villain. you have is back on.. I thought we lost you there for a minute., so, allison.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, if you want to start., you can unmute.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, please do not pleases us just voice only for the public testimony,. I will let me go,. Let me step back. just a second., so if anyone else looks like a lot of folks have utilized the raise hand function., if anyone else on the phone would like to speak,, please use star nine.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her): and you can and and we'll get you into the queue.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator, (she/her): and also, and.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, we will, if you would,, please. those that want to address the board,. Please use your full names in this in the zoom title and if he, if not, you can send me a message, and I can change that for you..

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): for those on the phone would just like to make sure that you introduce yourself. when you come on,, so I'm allison will start off with you and then.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator, (she/her): you'll have three minutes. I will use my little 30 seconds and time's up sign so that we can keep the view on so that you can see the board members. okay.. I think you can start.

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Allison cawthon: awesome. hi guys,, my name is allison.. I live at 2317 walnut street with my three roommates, all of us our first year graduate students at cu. Boulder. two of us are masters students and two of us are phd students.

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Allison cawthon:, we live directly behind river and woods.. So if you saw that video. there was a car in the driveway. that is our house. currently,, so we live less than 10 feet from river and woods,. The current air stream is my main problem.

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Allison cawthon: delivery, trucks, block the alleyway every single day. and there are multiple deliveries every day.. So we cannot back our car out of the driveway or our carport, because.

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Allison cawthon: you're really only able to go one way down the alley and the delivery trucks block the alleyway. additionally,. I have walked through pearl street and come back, and I cannot even walk down the alley, because the delivery trucks are blocking it so much.

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Allison cawthon:, they have also put like piles of wood in front of the airstream before, and I've had to go inside the restaurant to talk to people to get them to move it, because the would also blocks the album. And I cannot back up.

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Allison cawthon: they take breaks in a chair next to the airstream. I'm.

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Allison cawthon: in the alleyway. so, I,. I've had to get out repeatedly and ask the employees to please move the chair because I cannot drive my car down the alley.

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Allison cawthon:, they also take cigarette breaks out there, which I sleep with my windows open a lot. The cigarette smoke. it's in there.

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Allison cawthon: they tend to dump ice and glass in the alleyway are alleyways, I'm sure they're aiming for the trash can,, but it doesn't make it there. So I flattened to my bike tires before on the glass from the restaurant.

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Allison cawthon: additionally,. They do not have any parking spots for bikes behind their restaurant.. We have had multiple bikes parked in our driveway of my house.

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Allison cawthon: um, man.. We don't know what to do with them.. I mean, they just put them in the carport and leave them and in reference to the music., when we first moved in here in august., they were having music at least six nights. A week.

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Allison cawthon:, I can put my roommate laken on now.

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jean gatza, staff, moderator, (she/her): okay, allison. thank you.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): lincoln,, you can start.

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Allison cawthon: hello,, my name is liking kusa. I also live here at 2317. I am a masters or graduate student at cu boulder.. I did want to just reiterate everything that allison said their problems that I have experienced myself living here since august of 2020.

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Allison cawthon:- and I did also want to comment on your question. when you asked, greg. how many neighbors. he was representing, and I wanted to just.

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Allison cawthon: say to the board that all four of us here living at this address have spoke with greg and we agree with all the points that he brought up during his presentation and that they are concerns that we also share.

T

Allison cawthon: again with allison. our biggest complaint as the inability to access the driveway and the carport. Because of that trailer.

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Allison cawthon:- and I think that is, I think, that's it for me. thank you. I'll pass it along to my next roommate.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): megan is this on your graph graph up.

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Allison cawthon: yes. hi., my name is on your graph off. um,. I also live at the same residents right across the alleyway from reform woods.. I'm also a.

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Allison cawthon: first year phd student at cu boulder.. So, like my roommate said before me,, our main issue is with the alleyway not being accessible.

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Allison cawthon: again,, like I said, this, is due to the trailer that is currently parked in what is supposed to be the access I'll.

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Allison cawthon: um,, so we took some time to look at the plans for reverend woods and I think greg did a great job presenting.

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Allison cawthon: all of our concerns,, but I want to reiterate that they're supposed to be the alleyway than they're supposed to be an access aisle in which deliveries can park so that they're, not in the alleyway.

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Allison cawthon: and then pass that they're supposed to be an accessible parking space and then pass that they're supposed to be another access, aisle and currently.

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Allison cawthon: the,, the trailer, from which they serve drinks, is parked in the access aisle,, which means that deliveries have nowhere to park. Besides the alleyway which direct directly blocks or driveway.

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Allison cawthon:, as allison said, the driveway is blocked daily. It's blocked, to the extent that.

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Allison cawthon:, that not only can we not drive our cars out of the driveway., we can't even walk out of the driveway and walk through the alleyway. sometimes,, which obviously poses challenges for us being able to access our home.

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Allison cawthon: and I know the owner express that they instruct deliveries, not to block the alleyway., but the fact of the matter is, this happens. and this happens very regularly,, making it impossible for us to access our home properly.

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Allison cawthon:, in addition to that, I'd, also like to point out allison cawthon:, that, while I understand that the goal of the restaurant is to bring the community together., I don't really think that the claim that all of the neighbors appreciate the restaurant and.

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Allison cawthon: are a part of that.. The restaurant is a part of our local neighborhood community is accurate.

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Allison cawthon: the few times that we've tried to speak to the restaurant regarding the alleyway being blocked., we haven't really gotten responses,, certainly not very respectful, responses.

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Allison cawthon:, the music, isn't really a benefit to us, and the restaurant isn't a benefit to us in any sort of way,, because while they say that they volunteer, the music to aid the community., it's actually not a volunteer. Service.

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Allison cawthon: the., the restaurant is very expensive,, which I understand is a part of the economy,. But in order to attend.

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Allison cawthon: and listen to the music.. You have to pay a cover charge.. So the fact that the the claim that they're volunteering entertainment is not really accurate.

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Allison cawthon:, so not only do we not benefit from the music., we also are able to access our property and constantly have to deal with garbage and other things blocking or alleyway.. Thank you.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): thank you., anya.

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allison, cawthon:, hi. julia.

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Allison cawthon: hi,, my name is julia romero and I'm also a current resident of 2317 walnut street.. I am a first year phd student at cu, boulder.

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Allison cawthon:, my complaint is also that it is very difficult to access the alley and our driveway,, which is right behind the airstream.

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Allison cawthon: drink trailer and there is, as allison said, earlier, there was ice dumped in the alley. Multiple times,, as well as there's, been broken glass in the alley,, which we have to be careful of.

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Allison cawthon: and there's been workers sitting in chairs in the alley right behind our driveway,, making it difficult to back out of the driveway and pull into the driveway. um, and I've seen them smoking as well.

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Allison cawthon: and then there's a lot of delivery trucks blocking the alley.. I often have to walk all the way around the block to access our front door from a different direction. and then also.

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Allison cawthon:, I have to drive all the way around to the other side of the alley to drive to our driveway. um,, because the delivery trucks block the closer entrance to the alley.

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Allison cawthon: and then I also have a noise complaint. so like,, because I'm a phd student, I'm studying a lot,, especially on the weeknights on doing homework. And earlier when we moved in, in august and.

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Allison cawthon: september and maybe until mid october,, not exactly sure on the dates.. There was music being played about six times five or six times every week.

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Allison cawthon: late at night. um,, and when I have my windows,, you know, shut and door shut.. I can still hear the music through the window., so I just wanted to reiterate that I also have the noise complaint.. That is all for me.. Thank you for your time.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): thank you. allison. thank you. julia.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): okay, um,, next., allison cawthon: yeah,, have.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): lisa hills,, followed by lisa spalding.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her):, surely shallow and matt hayden.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her): and then also, kristen villain, villain., you've, so lisa helms,. You can go ahead.

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Lisa hilmes: thank you.. My name is lisa hummus and I live at.

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Lisa hilmes: walnut street in boulder.. I wanted to speak to the board about the violations of rubber and woods and how to mitigate the issues of noise in the trailer bar moving forward.

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Lisa hilmes:. I also want to set the record straight on one matter. In his letter, josh diner claims that only mr cast complained about the noise.

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Lisa hilmes: from the backyard music venue, and that is not true.. I have lived in this building, since before river and what's moved, in.

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Lisa hilmes: I enjoyed to quiet years here and starting in late 2016. I have called the restaurant multiple times to specifically complain about the noise from their backyard venue.

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Lisa hilmes: and it's not just the music, that's a problem when they held catered holiday. Parties,. I called and left voicemails to complain about their cleanup staff were playing their music and talking way too loudly after 11pm.

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Lisa hilmes: last fall,, I called the police during a wedding or about mitzvah event.. They were holding because the dj was playing music, unbearably loud.

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Lisa hilmes: and I called the police. again, this past summer, because of an alarm going off in their trailer at 4am.

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Lisa hilmes:, it sounded like an alarm clock going off and it was just 20 feet from where I sleep. it took 10 hours for them to shut it. Off., and this happens whenever the refrigerator in their trailer is below temperature.

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Lisa hilmes:, a former neighbor of mine, tried talking directly to employees when they were regularly hanging out behind the trailer in the alley.

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Lisa hilmes: right under her bedroom window,, they smoke cigarettes back there and she said they drink alcohol back there after their shifts.

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Lisa hilmes: one night after 10pm,, she asked them to please be quiet and they yelled obscenities at her.. So the next time it happened. She called the police.

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Lisa hilmes: she recently moved out, and I know the noise was a major factor in her choice to move.. Most people move out after about a year., I'm one of the few long term residents left.

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Lisa hilmes:, it's not just the loud music., it's everything that goes with the venue,, including the dumpster lids, slamming at 10:45pm waking. You up.

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Lisa hilmes:, a neighbor hood restaurant., I think, should be much more consider of their neighbors.

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Lisa hilmes: so going forward,. I have three requests,. If they're going to serve drinks out of the trailer., it needs to be moved further away from the alley.. They were never supposed to serve alcohol or customers that close to the alley and the original plan.

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Lisa hilmes: to if they are allowed to have live music going forward,. It must be kept to three concerts per week.

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Lisa hilmes: the summer, they had concert six days per week. and there were days where they would have two sets of music at brunch and another two sets of music at dinner.

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Lisa hilmes:- and this is too much.- they should not be able to exceed one concert with two sets in a day and not more than three concerts per week.

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Lisa hilmes: three: if they're allowed to have live music going forward,, it must be specified that there can be no sound amplification of any kind.

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Lisa hilmes:, I think this should include no microphone use of voice and amplifying voice or use of amplification to amplify acoustic instruments.

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Lisa hilmes:: I need to be able to have a conversation on the phone with my mom without being drowned out by banjos or having to close my windows in 90 degree heat when I have no air conditioning, just so. I can hear my tv.

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Lisa hilmes: thank you.. That's all. I have to say.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: jane,, if you can unmute that'd, be great.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, I'm so sorry. jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her):- that was the timing. thank you, lisa. next step is lisa spalding, followed by surely shallower, followed by matt, hayden and kristen bell on you.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): lisa spalding and go ahead.

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Lisaspalding: thank you, jane.

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lisaspalding:. I am not a neighbor of river on woods,, but I was a member of the beverage licensing authority or the vla in april 2016, when we granted mr diner a liquor license for river and woods.

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Lisaspalding:, I was surprised when I heard mr. cass and mr hayden describe the problems they were having with the restaurant at one of your previous meetings.

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Lisaspalding: I looked up both the agenda packet and the recording of the hearing and the blm archive.

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Lisaspalding: the floor plan included in the application was, as I recalled, and the recording confirmed my memory of questioning, mr diner.

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Lisaspalding: I asked many questions about the outdoor area they wanted to license.. I was worried that it can be difficult to manage liquor consumption, because it was so large.. I also asked.

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Lisaspalding: specifically, if they had talked to the neighbors about noise., they said they had and everything was fine.

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Lisaspalding: later,, I saw a photo of the backyard with an airstream trailer that had been turned into a bar, sitting in the parking space reserved for the accessible van and delivery trucks.

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Lisaspalding: that space was not licensed for a liquor license. mr. for liquor. Service, mr diner was advertising the opening of the trailer bar on social media for the summer of.

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Lisaspalding:, shortly after he received his license,, mr diner had not returned to the liquor board for permission to change, alter or modify the premises. While I was on the board or after I left.

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Lisaspalding: and even if he had a request, could not have been granted because the use review agreement designated that space for parking.

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Lisaspalding: the state liquor code requires zoning compliance for liquor licenses and boulder will not even accept a liquor license application without proof from the planning department that the proposed use. Zoning compliant.

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Lisaspalding: in the 10 years that I served on the vla, I never saw such a flagrant disregard for the law.

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Lisaspalding: mr diner claims a long and distinguished career in the restaurant business on his resume,. He knew what he was doing. and it doesn't matter whether the the trailer was on.

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Lisaspalding: licensed or it does matter., but even if it was unlicensed property,, he added a bar with no permission.. It's just,, I mean, it's unbelievable.

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Lisaspalding: these problems started before the pandemic,, so they should not be used as an excuse for mr diners failure to abide by both laws and management agreements,. I would respectfully request that trailer bar be removed period and the parking space be returned.

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Lisaspalding: three nights one.: this is not what we license. when we licensed.

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Lisaspalding: his business.

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lisaspalding: three nights a week is not periodic for music.

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Lisaspalding:, I absolutely never had the idea that he was going to be doing that and.

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Lisaspalding: he lisaspalding: he's,, he's done. Other restaurants have done as much or more than he has without breaking the rules. I'd be wearing videos. We had one at the under the vla and their end. You rely on them for anything. thank you.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): thank you, lisa., jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her):. Next up we have surely sheller.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, surely you can go ahead.

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Shirley schaller:, thank you very much.. My name is surely shallower and I'm sitting here with my husband url and we live next door to the boulder reservoir, where mr. dan diner plans to run a restaurant.

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Shirley schaller: in the new facility built by the city.. We are very worried that mr diner will do exactly what he has done. A river and woods to our neighborhood.

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Shirley schaller: mr diner passed out a 10 page information packet at the to meet and greet gatherings.. He held at the reservoir. on october 7 at 11 to introduce himself and his plans for his restaurant dockside at the rest of those 10 pages are attached to an email that I sent.

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Shirley schaller: earlier.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: door., I'm gonna, have to ask you to just speak to the matter. That's in front of us. right, now,, we're not discussing.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: any matters regarding the restaurant at the reservoir at this hearing.

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Shirley schaller: well,, I'm just concerned as a future neighbor that.

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Shirley schaller:, he might not adhere to what he has promised and I would just like to,. You know, reinforce the fact that.

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Shirley schaller:, it should not be an a,, an event place where he has authorization for seven nights a week from.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: are you speaking about the you say it should not be,. Are you speaking about.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:, our restaurant.

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Shirley schaller:, I'm speaking about the boulder reservoir restaurant now.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: we're not hearing anything about the boulder reservoir restaurant.. If you want to limit your comments to the hearing that we have in front of us to determine whether river in woods is in compliance or not, with the conditions of a tooth, review. we'd appreciate that.

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Alrighty. shirley schaller:, then I shall mute. thank you.. Thank you for your time.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: appreciate it.

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Shirley schaller: by you.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: and miss schaller, if you have,, if you want to address us at a future, hearing, you're welcome to come and talk to us,, and you would have been welcome to come and give your whole three minutes to us under general. Public comment.

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Shirley schaller: okay. harmon, zuckerman,, pb:, you're, hearing., okay.

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Shirley schaller: fine, thank you. bye.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): thank you, michelle.. Next we have madhavan followed by kristin villain villain,. You.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):: now you can go ahead.

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Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her):, you should be unmuted.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): try star six to unmute.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, I believe, you're on the phone.. If you could try star six to unmute.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): okay,. Well, let's, let's pause on format for just a moment and move to kristin villeneuve kristin. similarly,, if you're on the phone., if you can use star six to unmute.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): hello., can you hear me, you can krystin villeneuve: tell it krystin villeneuve: okay, great., my name is.. Thank you! So much. my name is kristin rona,. I lived upstairs from lisa.

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Krystin villeneuve:, I'm technically still a resident.

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Krystin villeneuve:, I just wanted to echo greg and the ladies from 2317 and lisa and lisa spalding as well. As you say, home events balding.

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Krystin villeneuve: nap., I was there before. lisa,, even those den before of different words moved in and for the years from from the beginning, when they decided that they weren't event center and it became too loud.. It was too old for years before coded.

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Krystin villeneuve:, I appreciate that things were down turned in curve. and if the business is tough,, but everybody had a tough,. Those of us who had to work from home also had a tough and I'm failing to understand. Why is the ability to make money superseded everybody else's when we work from home.

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Krystin villeneuve: he was having concerts.. These were actual real concerts, because there was a full band with a drum kit and a bass, guitar electric guitar and everything there was not acoustic performances.

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Krystin villeneuve: he lives when he says that nobody but greg complaint. I complained independently. I reached out to them three times via facebook, messenger and they responded., and the response was always along the lines of know all.

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Krystin villeneuve:, they had no respect to their neighbors.. They did not care about the complaints,. They made absolutely no moves to abuse us at all.. I didn't get offered study space or a separate space to work in.

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Krystin villeneuve:, when the concert series was going on over the summer. It was six nights, a week, plus all day on saturday and sunday.

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Krystin villeneuve:, it was over 30 hours of live performances and it sounded like it was in my room.. I couldn't escape it. and we were in a global pandemic, which does not sound like the best time to suddenly become a concert venue,. If you ask me. it's not actually in the spirit of a pandemic.

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Krystin villeneuve: to gather especially to become a music venue. when actual music than us, like the box and the boulder theater aren't allowed to be one.. Why was he in my question to the summer.

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Krystin villeneuve:, I contacted them several times like lisa said I'm that neighbor who,, when I asked them verbally after calling on the phone to please be quiet out nearly.

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Krystin villeneuve: the cost me out.

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krystin villeneuve:. They not only custom me out,, but they acknowledged that they knew with me and called on the phone because they addressed that specifically.

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Krystin villeneuve:, so they had made kind of a sport after that of turning up their stereo, as they were cleaning up as loud as they could and they made another sport at a throwing bottles in a dumpster as hard as they could..

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Krystin villeneuve:, and so that's why you see broken glass around., it's not an accident.. They seem to do it on purpose.

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Krystin, villeneuve: and music would stop at night and then the stereo would start in the stereo and sometimes bill until midnight,, and there would be people partying in the trailer bar.

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Krystin villeneuve: and in the alley., so it seems like river and words needs to take up the alley. some of the parking lot at the bsw next door.. I don't know why they can't take their breaks in front of the restaurant.

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Krystin villeneuve:, and why do you need to extend into that alley.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): thank you, chris., I'm not eating.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): well,, that's right,, yeah., jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her):, I'm sorry., jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her): that was,, that was three minutes.

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krystin villeneuve:, can you. okay, great. krystin villeneuve: statement. yeah.

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Krystin villeneuve:, just it to music, was never acoustic. Noise is always very obtrusive and it does not stop at nine.. It goes on the party with the employees after hours doesn't stop until they're getting ready to leave., and if you ask them to stop the cuss you out and they get nasty.

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Krystin villeneuve:, but also matt hayden, is here with me.. He can have a few minutes bmi zone,, since he was going to work earlier. If that works. that's fine.

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So we got a great.

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Krystin villeneuve: hi: this is matt hidden.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): now you can go ahead. thank krystin villeneuve:, you first of all, thanks a lot for everybody for the hard work to put all this together.. We really appreciate it. and I can confirm a lot of what the other interpreters saying.

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Krystin villeneuve: additionally,.

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Krystin villeneuve:, not the kind of person to complain about the stuff, I'm also hard of hearing.. So if it bothers me., it bothers other people. Too.

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Krystin villeneuve: in terms of what is acoustic. one thing I did notice was band called at least as many mountains that right. many mountains.

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Krystin villeneuve:, I can hear them from fulsome. I, like I said, I'm partners hearing and I know this is a little bit hard to believe have a video of this so that can't fall under acoustic.. I mean, that's.

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Krystin villeneuve:, that's pretty much all I wanted to say was, if you guys can decide on the definition of acoustic that would help us. I'd love to know your rest of my time.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): great. thank you, matt. and thank you, kristen.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, I see no other hands raised.. If anyone else would like to speak to the board on this item.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, please use the raise hand, function now.

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Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, I'm seeing an alternative back to you. harmon.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay, thanks a lot., appreciate, it. and thanks for coming everybody.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:. I want to give greg, cast the complainer three minute rebuttal period of if he chooses to take it and then we'll follow that by three minute rebuttal period for.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: for josh diner.. If he chooses to take it- and this is really just not to continue to litigate your case. but to respond to items that have come up since your presentation in public comment.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: here. greg kass: yeah. Thank thank you so much for the opportunity for about all four quick points. one,. There have been two misrepresentations that mr diner man to this board and I'd like a point to point them out. As false. first,. He said that the bar,, the trailer bar.

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Greg kass: was originally placed in a different location. One any said that it was only used for storage and wasn't really used for a bar.

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Greg kass:, as patently false, I direct you to exhibit seven of mine,, which is a picture.

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Greg kass: of that mr diner posted to his instagram,, where the,, where the trailer bar is in the same spot and it is not being used for storage., and that was on september 26. 2016.

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Greg kass:, the second material, false statement that he made this evening to the bar to this board is regarding the beverage licensing authority and their communications with him. as lisa.

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Greg kass: the first lisa pointed out there that was an unlicensed bar and they told him to shut it. Down.. There was no confusion., they sent him a letter and he had to shut it down. The next day.

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Greg kass:, that's plain and simple.. My final two points are.

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Greg kass: that yeah I did move,, but it's because that place is unlovable, and, as lisa thomas said,.

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Greg kass:: that's been the pattern here, and I'm 32 years old.. It's really hard for nurses and and young and young people to find a place to live.

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Greg kass: and that's just been the pattern with this place., so he's turned what was a quiet restaurants into even a place with occasional performance, space., so yeah, I did move,, but that doesn't move my claim that actually supports my claim.

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Greg kass: and then my final point: is he never he he always intended to have this, be a concert venue., and so I'm going to leave you with this question. If mr diner approached you in.

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Greg kass: and said, greg kass: yes,, the previous restaurant, they're not allowed to have music and they don't. and yes, the town statute, it doesn't. Allow live music, either. but, you know,, I'd like to build a stage. and I'd like to host three concerts, a week.

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Greg kass: is there any chance that this board would have granted permission for that,? I think,. I think the answer is a resounding no.. I think that the same answer would have come from the community,. If that's what mr diner said.

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Greg kass: and that's all I have to say,. I don't think that this.. I don't think that this meeting should be.

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Greg kass:, basically a permission granting meeting to allow a type of conduct that mr diner never would have been allowed to do if he fully disclosed his intentions in the first instance and solicited community, and thank you for your time.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay,, thanks for that rebuttal,. Mr cast turn it over to mr diner,. You have three minutes.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: and you want a new moon.

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josh dinar: okay, thank you.

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Josh dinar: so, josh dinar: first,. We did solicit a quite a bit of community feedback before before opening and.

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Josh dinar: corporate line., josh dinar:, we spoke to a number of of the neighbors,. We put out a public, our request for that, and we met with anyone who wanted to meet with us.. We can only use the information that is given to us and and the people that that come to us.

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Josh dinar:, it was quite frankly difficult to hear some of the some of the other neighbors behind us,, because that's new.. Some of those were new complaints to me. and again,.

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Josh dinar:, the one thing that I can say with certainty is that anyone that comes to us with a concern we address it immediately and take it very seriously, because our goal is certainly not to.

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Josh dinar: harass our immediate neighbors or or make life unlivable, and we did our best on a daily basis to to attend to that and to and to balance the running of a business that has an outdoor and approved outdoor area, with the needs of with the needs of the neighbors.

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Josh dinar: again,, there's music is not.. It's not., it's not a music venue.. If you shut down a music venue,, the music venue doesn't continue. If, if the board decides that we cannot play live music and that's against code.

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Josh dinar:: we continue to have our approved use in the outdoor space and and that amenity will be,. You know, will be not there anymore and that's that's the long and short of it.

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Josh dinar: so from the beginning, we have asked,. Are we allowed to do this.? Here's what we said we do periodic music.. We know that this year, we again acknowledged fully that that that that there is no, that this was not periodic. This season.

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Josh, dinar: and- and that was written by us when we wrote that this is not meant to be a concert venue and the periodic music that that was a word that was put in by us and the original plan. That was our intention,. It continues to be our long term, intention.

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Josh dinar: and.

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Josh dinar: and again, we will continue to will continue to work with both the city and the neighbors to make it to be, as.

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Josh dinar: unobtrusive as we as we can,, given the fact that we are in a mixed use and very close quarters with with those neighbors and. and again,. I think that are.

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Josh dinar:, the way that we have conducted ourselves will will show that.. So I'm happy to speak to the other neighbors that have that have and have bought by the way already addressed some of the some of the things that have come up, since this process, started, such as breaks in the alley.

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Josh dinar:, which we've asked,, are we again. We will put the additional processes in place and are happy to continue to speak to any of our neighbors about any of their concerns and do our best to address all of those concerns.

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Josh dinar: thank you., harmon zuckerman,, pb: okay. good timing. thank you,, mr diner., as we so often do. In long hearings, we get to about eight o'clock and all of the.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:, applicant presentations and public comment has been completed and I'll call for a break before we come back to deliberate, and this is working out, kind of like that., so we've been added for two hours. It's 802 going on 803 and I would suggest now would be a good time.. So I'm going to.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: I'm going to call a break and we'll be back at 810 sharp to deliberate on this better.

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Sarah silver pb:, that was very funny.

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David ensign:, a few chips in my mouth. before we get going again.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:, okay., all right. well,, let's say 10. and we're back. call the meeting back to order, and this is our, our time to deliberate on this matter.

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Harmon zuckerman,, pb: and again, unusual in that we're being asked to determine whether the operations of an approved use review are within the requirements they use review and.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:, you know, so many times, we've we've heard when approving use reviews are reviewing us reviews., we've heard.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: the question from a planning board member to staff. well,. What happens if, if the applicant doesn't.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: shut the music off at 10 o'clock or doesn't keep the garage door closed when they're supposed to win when there's a certain hour that passes and and staff informs us that you know it's it's a possibility that they could have their user view. Revoked.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: or that at minimum, they would have a hearing in front of us and it doesn't often happen. But here we are. and now everyone who's on planning, board.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: will have this experience.. I think there are people who serve five years and never have a hearing like this. so feel free to,, you know,. If you're unsure.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb: of what we're doing, feel free to ask a question.. We have david gear here and he has a lot of experience and he's here to help us out through this. so,.

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Harmon zuckerman, pb:, you know I want everybody to feel comfortable, that you know your role and if you don't.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, you can ask. it's all right., it's not something that we we handle very often.. But let's do this in a correct way and in deliberate properly. so, you know, essentially,. We have a few options that we can take.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, you know,, we can,. We could take no action.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. We could revoke the us review approval.. We could impose additional conditions or modifications to carry out the purposes of the original approval.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: or we could seek enforcement remedies., and that doesn't mean that we can direct the enforcement arm of the city of boulder to and, of course, the terms of the user view,. It means that we can request that the enforcement arm of the city of boulder.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: go out to the site and enforce the code and enforced for us to review as they see in their discretion fit.. So those are to me.. Those are really our options.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, you know what we have in front of us is a body of evidence that was presented to us by the complainant.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and we have a body of evidence that was presented to us by staff and we have a body of evidence presented to us by the respondent. and so now I would open up the floor to anyone who wants to begin discussing.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. What reviewing that body of evidence has has rendered in them as a response., so I'll see the florida, lisa first. and then john crystal.

D

Lisasmith pb:, I just wanted to ask harmon.: do we go through an order, as we would with other things that has to be considered.? First, is it,, you know, meeting the current user view, or do we just kind of have a broad, ranging discussion.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: well,. I think if you want to address that. lisa,, if you, you know,, if you want to just go through the,, the user view characteristics and whether you believe that it's meeting the conditions of that approval., I think that's fine., I'm also open to people making general comments.

D

Lisasmith pb: okay,- I don't have them all pulled up in front of me, but on my review.

D

Lisasmith pb: of the original use, review and stats recommendations and what we've heard from people tonight.. It seems clear that the current uses, or at least their recent uses of this past summer, did not meet biggest review as written.

D

Lisasmith pb:, you know,, so I guess that a minimum,. I would recommend that we, in which.

D

Lisasmith pb:, I don't know if I call him the defendant, but which the.

D

Lisasmith pb: restaurant owner and operator has has said he is interested in doing so. I just wanted to acknowledge that.. I think that was outside the use review and then we can get more fine grained on some of the other uses that have been happening over time.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: thank you, john.

L

John gerstle pb: yeah,. I just wanted to start out by just closing on that. I've personally visited the restaurant.

L

John gerstle pb: a few days ago, just to get a feel for what was going on there on not going in the restaurant, but going in the alley and going around it just up with.. So I just wanted to make it clear that that I had done that.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: well,, thanks for doing that. john, why don't we all provide our disclosures. if there are any additional disclosures other planning board members would like to make around ex parte communications or contacts or reasons why you might be conflicted or have to recuse yourself.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: though, I'll, just open it up to the board members.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:: that's it for this boaters. any other thoughts. Era.

G

Sarah silver pb:, so I thought that staff did a really first great job on this and I support.

G

Sarah silver pb: in the I support generally their recommendations.. I do think we probably it would make sense or I'd like to suggest that we talk a bit about the issue of amplification.. It does sound like that's something that is unclear in much the same way. Periodic is not defined.

G

Sarah silver pb:, so that,, that's where I'd like to start,. I support staff recommendations,, but perhaps we can refine it a bit with some discussion of amplification.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. Anybody want to jump in on that.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, all before you do, you know,. I just wanted to point out.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: the complainant talked about the way that the town measured and they're just so that everybody knows the the code,. The code has a table section: five dash nine dash three.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: describes what the allowable decibel level is at the property line of complainants, property and residential between 7am and 11pm, and for our discussion. That's the only time frame that probably matters,, given the times that we've heard it's 55 and for mixed use and other it's 65.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and the, the question is,: where was the sound received so to the east and west of the subject property? We have em, you three zoning and so the decibel limit at the property line would be a measured 65 decibel limit.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, because it's mixed use and that maximum is 65 back property line or the south property line a budding. The properties on walnut.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, which are zoned rh to residential high., that's a residential district., and so that would be limited to 55.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: the complainant in the walnut street house. it's behind the restaurant could complain at 55 decibels. Their complaint would be.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: should be cognizant by code enforcement,, but for the properties that are on the pearl street frontage, there, east and west of the subject, property, which are in the mixed use district.. We can't exceed 60.

G

Sarah silver pb: so karmin. I really appreciate you pointing that out to us and it does bring up just a note that I didn't think to make before so I appreciate you triggering this.

G

Sarah silver pb: there were no, there were almost no references to code in the staff. Memo, which,, given that we've never dealt with this before, is a challenge. and it might be helpful, is going forward that this kind of reference code just be noted. When it's when it's a thing, we need to refer to.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: lisa.

D

Lisasmith pb:, so I was thinking about this a lot when I was reading through it, and thank you, um,. I looked at that piece of code as well and and kind of trying to parse out.

D

Lisasmith pb: how,, and I think some of this frankly isn't necessarily within planning words per view.

D

Lisasmith pb:, but you know the belief of police were called out out. I don't. I haven't looked at those police reports and hopefully they took the trouble to take an actual decimal reading,, which I think we heard they did, um,.

D

Lisasmith pb:: it's not unusual to have some degree of noise conflict in a residential area or an area where mixed use of butts residential.

D

Lisasmith pb:, and so while it was clear to me around the use, review issues., and I also really appreciate what staff did. It was harder for me to parse out.

D

Lisasmith pb:, what the actual constraints were regarding regarding legality at the noise level, you know, and it sounded like there hadn't been.

D

Lisasmith pb:, at least in the time zone enforcement. I called out that it hadn't exceeded their card., the decimal.. We see this a lot with like houses close to chautauqua. We see it with other areas on pearl street.

D

Lisasmith pb:, and so I guess I would just welcome ideas from other board members and perhaps also clarification from legal, stop or planning stuff kind of around what the constraints are with that in terms of what city code actually.

D

Lisasmith pb: allows for any usage. if it was a house playing a trumpet or something because it seems to me that there may be things that we can do, and also things that were somewhat limited on doing. So. Thank you for bringing that up., carmen. and again,. There's also quite use an enjoyment and.

D

Lisasmith pb:, you know and how periodic. it is., and so it comes up,. But I just try to try to piece all that together and figure out, okay, what,. What can we actually do or say, and what's just allowed use, was less clear to me.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, like pizza.

N

Lupita d montoya pb:, yes. um,. I just like to make a couple comments.. I think that focusing on code. and also,, this is our first, I'm.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: hearing this kind, and I like to think that we can approach it.. At least I am trying to approach it as a little bit of a mediation, in the sense that I really wanted to hear the story from both sides and kind of see.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: the,, the image that it comes out of my questions were designed to get information from a group and see if people agreed with it.. So I think I got part of what I wanted to see.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, and so with regards to some of the key elements here., I think the noise situation is something that we definitely need to clarify.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: unfortunately,- I wish we had data to. We can just kind of clearly say what is above 55 or above 65. That would make life easier,, but it was sounding moving forward.. I will say that will be something that would definitely have to clarify.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: the other biggest concern that I found. oh, I leaves the biggest same position in terms of.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: it position on to the neighbors and we got to repeat it: stories.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, inconsistent stores was with regards to the effect.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: to parking, and I think that the story was very consistent, and I will like to keep that in mind in terms of how we can make sure that, based on what we have in front of us., we can take care of this things in a, in a manner that hopefully.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: continues to provide opportunity for business to.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: make a living if they can end this pandemic,, but also address the needs of the community.. So I just want to.

N

Lupita d montoya pb:, make it clear what I'm coming from, is trying to find somewhat of a compromise, but meeting coat,, but in a way that, hopefully, both sides will be willing to come together on.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so peter I I might have passed over you.. I'm sorry. If I didn't see your hand up.

AB

Right. peter vitale pb:. I want to echo when lisa said and lupica cover some of that as well. That.

AB

Peter vitale pb: that peter vitale pb:. I want to be careful that peter vitale pb: we're sticking with what is in front of us., because we've all lived or had that option to live next to a restaurant or.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, you know,. This is not broadway,, but it's prostrate and those are choices that are made in terms of noise and sound and.

AB

Peter vitale pb: having people working at a restaurant, making noise after they're off shift.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, I don't think that's what we're here, for. and so with this boards for and that's not what public money is for to spend for us to do that., and I don't want to want to be careful that well, I sympathize I wedding.. We all have our horror stories.

AB

Peter vitale pb: about that.. That's not what this bar venues for so.

AB

Peter vitale, pb: and harmon.. I look to you to help us, or at least to help us answer our questions, david to stay within the bounds of what we're here to do., because if we're reaching back in time and there's what happened, you know,, we heard from the the liquor board.

AB

Peter vitale pb: member of the public, who spoke. former member and then we heard about the series of different moves that were made that were violations or for infractions or.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, the fog of war, not which is running a business period, much less than a pandemic, and then we have.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, what's in front of us, that we can do now to fix this., and I just wanted to really stay focused on what that is.. Because it's unclear to me how far we're supposed to reach back.

AB

Peter vitale pb: into this whole situation, because I don't think that's what we're appointed for and I don't think it would be a proper use of resources.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so peter., I'm going to just briefly respond.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, you know,. We have a staff recommendation in front of us,, which.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: applies and conditions that staff was drafted for us, which,, you know, largely seem sensible. in fact, largely seem like they're acceptable to the to the property on.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: far as reaching back in time and going beyond our, our basis.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: or beyond our authority,, where our discretion as a board.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: you know, it's,. It's basically the same as conditions that we would apply to a site. Review.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: you know, if,. If we need a condition,, we believe that we need a condition in order to make the the that this case responded,, but usually an applicant, make the us compliant.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, then we can add a condition: harmon zuckerman,, pb: and so,. You know,, like you, said,, I'm not sure we want to get into.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: employees breaking down the restaurant at the end of the night and their behavior that that's probably an issue that needs to be discussed between neighbors and the owner.. But if you can find a way to look at the conditions that are already in the approved.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: approved use review and make a condition that you think is necessary.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: to meet those conditions of approval, and that has to do with breaking down the restaurant. At the end of the night,, you know,, you can suggest such a condition,, but you need to tie it back to the conditions of the us review that was approved.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: internet site.

M

David ensign: um, yeah. okay. well, um,. I agree with a lot of the observations that have been made. um,. I do agree that I would support the motion to find that this.

M

David ensign:, the use conditioning. they uses have been violated.. I think that that I would support that, that there had been no there's been enough evidence.

M

David ensign: presented that I would agree that there have been violations and in terms of the staff recommendations., I guess the things the couple things that I'm really interested in talking about,. I support the staff recommendation number two of imposing additional conditions.

M

David ensign: and I think that might be enough.

M

David ensign:, I don't really know that we really need to get into enforcement. we're in a difficult time for businesses., and I think that enforcement folks have their job to do..

M

David ensign:, with regards to the additional conditions. I guess the. am, I would be willing to discuss whether no amplified music, as it stated in the staff recommendation, is enough. I it seems pretty clear.

M

David ensign:- and I guess in number three under that under those conditions,, whether if we stated that.

M

David ensign:, it will be consistent with the approved plans for us.. Does that mean that I'm not clear as to what happens, for example, to the airstream that air stream has been there for a long time,? I think, and.

M

David ensign: would, with the with the covert exceptions.. Does that mean it can stay in that parking pad,, because it seems to me that it might be nice to move it out of the parking pad, so that the alleyway is more clear.

M

David ensign: and that would be consistent with the original approval. right.

M

David ensign: and then I just, I'm a little unclear about where we live,. Where would stand with regards to serving drinks out of there.? If that isn't something that the beverage folks approved.

M

David ensign: so,, so I just, I'm unclear as to how the coven loosening of restrictions would interplay with number three.. So whether we need to clarify that. or just ask staff, what would happen. that would be interesting. david,. Can you talk to that.

Q

David gehr: though,, just in terms of what the.

Q

David gehr: licensed premises is., and I think that that's what the issue that people were addressing with the beverage licensing authority that that's within the enforcement.

Q

David gehr: purview of the vla, and just from listening to the testimony tonight., it sounds like that they were informed that they were out of compliance with their licensed.

Q

David gehr: premises and that they take an action to remedy that., so that's,, that's clearly beyond the scope of what this board would do.

Q

David gehr:, you know,. I don't really see this as a noise issue, as it is a.

Q

David gehr:, you know what,, you know what their approval stated, with regard to an accessory use are related to the outdoor performances., and I think that that's reflected in the staffs.

Q

David gehr: proposed conditions on page 12 of the packet, and then maybe I would just ask charles pharaoh to talk about. Are.

Q

David gehr:, the emergency orders related to really trying to support our restaurants.

Q

David gehr: and I believe you know they've- been pretty well supported by our council.-.

Q

David gehr:, but to go through a little bit of the history of that.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, thanks david., so.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : to shannon's point in her presentation.. The applicant initially took advantage of the city's outdoor expansion program that was stood up in the springtime.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : recognizing the challenges that restaurants are facing right, now.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : staff worked to stand up a winter program that would allow things like heated tense.. So the app innocence taken advantage of that and I think.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, we'll continue on through the winner,, taking advantage of the program.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, with regard to the airstream, I think what shabnam and the conditions of approval were suggesting was that, since the.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : minimum parking requirements throughout the city have been suspended in order to allow for additional outdoor seating opportunities to support restaurants,, particularly during the winter months..

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, it would be possible for the airstream to remain in place through the end of the winter outdoor seating, expansion, program.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, that said per david's point, don't necessarily know that it will be able to be continued to be used as.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, something that you could serve liquor out of.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, but it would technically be able to remain in place if it were used for something like seating.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : throughout the winter months., but I think that condition is suggesting that once the outdoor expansion program is over.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, the site, has to return to the condition that, as it was approved in its most recent minor modification from moses 2016, I think.

M

David ensign: okay, that, that, that I think I'm clarifying that., because when I read through the section on the coven you know loosening. I couldn't tell that, that it was that clear that the airstream could stay there.

M

David ensign: and I would say, that, you know, just my reaction to that, since we are deliberating, is that,. You know,. We are in a tough time and if you're.

M

David ensign:, if there is an end to this, you know, to the time at which it can be parked in that pad,, then I think that you know it's. It's a temporary thing that we all kind of live with to help small businesses have some more flexibility, so that that I think it's justifiable.

M

Charles ferro, city of boulder : yeah,, I want to be clear.. It would have to be used to support additional seating opportunities to help get them through the winter months.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, it wouldn't be able to remain in place if it were being used for storage or again.. You don't have to be used as something that you know for liquor. Service.

M

David ensign:, okay, that's good clarification.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, if you just follow up on that, on that particular.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: item lupita d, montoya pb:. My understanding is that the coveted emergency. this position is until february.

F

Lupita d, montoya pb: crude right and that from what we heard tonight,, it appears that the situation about that airstream being used as the bar is really not clear that it will continue. they have to stop, and it appeared to me that may not be use for that purpose. Anymore.

K

Lupita d, montoya pb:, is that charles ferro, city of boulder : correct unless, for some reason, the liquor order approved that as a extension of their license.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, all right. but,, you know, just by the tone of the discussion of the comments.. It appears to me: that's a challenge.

N

Lupita d montoya pb:, so I'm trying to think in terms of what are the chances that. Therefore, the only reason why that air stream will be there and will be there.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: in compliance will be easy. if it is used for sitting as part of the extension external extension of the seating area outside which will make sense, because it's so while shelter will be better than being outside.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:: it will be nice to know if that's the tension.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, but if not, you know,, there's, definitely an issue with the parking that these airstream release imposing a big problem.. So that's kind of what I am.. If we can kind of dissect that a little bit., maybe we'll be able to find, you know,, a compromiser will help everyone.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, I don't know that the applicant has included the use of the air stream in their proposal outdoor week, winter seating program.. So maybe that's a clarification for tonight.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: yeah,. So thank you for sharing that., because that question will be his that a vacation be semester ready and if it has,, you just said that he wasn't included, and he does any specifics about the airstream for that purpose of cd..

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: no, no,, don't we ask the applicant or the respondent right now,, mr diner.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. Can you tell us if the airstream trailer is part of your winter outdoor seating plan in compliance with the coven regulations, temporary regulations.

R

Josh dinar:, that's that's. The hope is that we would have.. We do have seating availability in there. so,. That is the hope, but but we.

R

Josh dinar: were waiting for this meeting to see whether that was something. That is something that would that would work. okay.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, greg. good.. I see your hands up. greg,, but this is not a time for that. We needed to ask the applicant, a question.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay.

B

harmon zuckerman, pb:. I called him the applicant that the respondent here in this case.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay,, so.

P

Greg kass: 10 seconds,, your condition.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, no it's,, it's not., that's not the point of this,. We wanted to hear what the respondents plans are.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay. so, any other thoughts from the planning board.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: john.

L

John gerstle pb: yeah. I I'd like to pursue this question of what is amplified. music.

H

John gerstle pb: and what is.

L

John gerstle pb: occurring, you know, frequency, the frequency of.

L

John gerstle pb: periodic music performances, because I think that's quite critical. and really,. As far as I perceive it.. That is really.

L

John gerstle pb: the key issue that we're dealing with both with respect to the impact on the neighbors and with respect to how how well the use, review conditions, parking and comply with.

L

John gerstle pb: I,. It would be interesting to get legal guidance on on the meanings of those terms,. I can tell you what what it means,, what my understanding of those terms is.

L

John gerstle pb:, and that is no amplified. Music means no electrical amplification of anything,, regardless of whether it's an acoustic guitar in front of a microphone or an electric guitar.

L

John gerstle pb:, so to me it's fairly clear,, but I would be interested to learn other people's perceptions and the.. The other aspect of what periodic music is.

L

John gerstle pb: three times a week. well, of course, there's a period between the couple of performances,, but it sounds like a regular schedule that you're talking about, rather than an occasional.

L

John gerstle pb: situation, and so I'm I'm.

L

John gerstle pb:, I have to say that I think that's a pretty frequent periodic music performance., so I,. I would be interested in your perceptions of of what periodic means.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: lisa.

D

Lisasmith pb: yeah,, so I I would also love some clarification that again, I'm sort of trying to think like. If I'm I live in a residential area.. If I, between the allowable hours, not over the decibels, 55 decibels that I'm allowed to have.

D

Lisasmith pb:, if I were singing or playing on my back deck into a microphone.

D

Lisasmith pb:, up to lot of my you know out my property line, is that an allowable use,, you know,, and so I'm just trying to understand kind of where.

D

Lisasmith pb:, where those lines cross, I'm keeping in mind the impact on the neighbors and the way that that I have deep empathy for that.. I mean, you know,, and I hear them that it's.

D

Lisasmith pb: disturbing him. and again,. I wonder how that falls under quiet use and enjoyment. other terms like that.. I also wonder a little bit about moving to the nuisance,, but I don't think we're getting to that kind of legal jargon.

D

Lisasmith pb: we I'm just trying to understand, like, what, how what's allowed to happen,. What's not., I think about, like, I live in south folder. Cafe. Delay has acoustic music with michael the time., so does southern sun.

D

Lisasmith pb: typically indoors, not outdoors, and they don't have residences right on top of them.. I also think about pro street coffee shops,. You know, things like that., so I'm just,, I'm trying to also understand kind of the legal.

D

Lisasmith pb: implications of implications of that and how how we should think about it in terms of the use review in this particular case.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, I'm just gonna, respond, really quick and then I'm going to call in luke eats them and sarah of the you know the difference. lisa between you and your backyard and.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: commercial business, that's gotta use review is that use review is basically a contract between.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, the owner in the city,, saying that there are certain standards that agreed upon and you've never agreed with your neighbors or the city about anything, except that.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: tacitly, you're not going to break the noise ordinance., so I think john was on the right track. When he's trying to trying to figure out what is periodic mean,, you know,, because that's. those are the words that we have to interpret. That's.

N

N

lupita d, montoya pb:, that's exactly where it's going to go.. I think that the most useful approach will be to try to define better the nebulous parts of this situation.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, so defining periodic well periodic means it repeats. so by how was the frequency of that periodic series will be a useful thing for us to determine so.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:: it appears that the owner and other restaurant interpreted periodic ass. Three times a week, which you went up because of cod is covered. Situation.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: where,, like I said, when I asked the question about, why was extraneous circumstances by which he felt that he was appropriate.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: to increase the frequency to six days, a week, as opposed to three days, a week, which he was used them before., and that was a definition that he came out with.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, it wasn't handed out to him,, but this is something where we can help.. Then we can come to an agreement on what that means. now, and there will be a number associated with that. That is not to be,. You know,.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, broken or,, you know, exceed it, that will be very helpful. and I'm in regards to their noise level.. What we do have some standards based on the,, you know,, whether we are within a not area, is 65 or 55.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, we can kind of come out to an agreement,, you know,. This is how we interpret it from these body, because you know the property itself has the limit of 65.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, but just across literally a line which could be very thin,, it becomes 6055., I'm sorry., so 65 for the business and for the neighbors is 55.. So this is something where.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:. We can make clear how we are interpreting this things, but also, I will suggest in some of the parts where there may be some additional discussions and agreements that the neighbors and the owner have to come to. Terms., and I mentioned that.

N

Lupita d montoya pb:, they issued mediation, eight occur to me. That, you know,. They may they have to have some some discussions on their own and I recommend that maybe they can reach out to the city to get some support for.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: in the area of lupita d, montoya pb:, where this is lupita d, montoya, pb:, restorative justice, there. there are people in the city. happy trained to help and these sort of situation where people have these agreements.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, that you don't necessarily have to go to boards or to, you know, to the law to solve problems that could be an address.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, the ones that we should be addressing, is the things that regards to the code.. This is the part where the board has.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: per view,, but I will highly suggest and recommend that these two parties, you know,.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: look forward after this trying to do some sort of restorative justice discussions so that they can come out of this system, understanding each other and finding a common ground.. So I will,, I will suggest that we can focus on,, you know,, defining periodic that will be a good place to start.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: with zero,. It's your turn.

G

Sarah silver pb: okay, thank you. um,, sarah silver pb:. So I feel like what I'm going to disagree with the pita about the restorative justice. Process. and so,. Yes, go ahead.

G

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, one sec, I saw david, was david gear.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: was raised his hand.. He might need to jump in and then we'll go to. You,. Is that all right.

B

Q

David gehr: um,- I just wanted to raise one point,. Then it's just been bantered about tonight in different ways,, but our first of all that noise ordinances.

Q

David gehr:, enforced by the police and code enforcement,, not by the planning board.. So that's where then reasonable, quiet, enjoyment.

Q

David gehr: same thing,, it's done in the municipal court, not here, but but the standard.- and I think carmen explained this earlier,- that it's.

Q

David gehr:, it's the sound, is measured at the receiving property line.. So on that southern property line., they have a requirement to have a lower sound level.

Q

David gehr: for those properties across the street., they can be a little bit higher with their neighbors on the east side or west side or the north side, because that's, you know, the different land uses, so they still have to meet that lower sound standard at at the rear property. Line.

D

Lisasmith pb:, without cutting into serious time. I ask a follow up question. While we're on this topic.

D

Lisasmith pb: um, so, first of all, thank you, carmen and david for the clarification.. I really appreciate that., I'm part of why I was asking me about it was that I heard.

D

Lisasmith pb: you know, from sarah and from other members of order around,, you know,. How do we define acoustic, and I know that in.

D

Lisasmith pb:, which I think wasn't the original use review.. So I love clarification on whether we shouldn't even be thinking about that and should only be focusing on periodic.

D

Lisasmith pb:, but the reason why I thought it was interesting is because, like on pearl street. for example,, we define amplification is any form of amplification.

D

Lisasmith pb: however,. That means you can play unamplified instrument like a brass instrument like a trumpet. there's, a wonderful performer who plays and tap dances and his delightful,, which is significantly louder. Than, you know,, vocalist, or most vocalist.

D

Lisasmith pb: or violin. typically,, so you know I'm just wondering,. Is that something we should even be looking at this amplification thing.? Do you feel like that really does only fall into the code enforcement or is that within the purview of the us to review.

D

Lisasmith pb: and then just to point out that amplification isn't the nlp all of how loud, it's going to be.. It's also the instrument.

Q

David gehr: right. well,, I just think that, you know, in terms of we've, used acoustic a lot in approvals over the years.

Q

David gehr: frankly,, when I go.

Q

David gehr: in like try to figure out what it means.

Q

David gehr:, you know,, whether it's acoustic or.

Q

David gehr: amplification, I would just go straight to the dictionary and look at the term.

Q

David gehr: and you know,, I think that jonker stole threw out a definition which, basically it's what the dictionary says.

Q

David gehr: so that,, that's a good guideline,. Just in terms. and then, you know,. If you, you know, go to what the staff, the staff recommendation,, it appears like they are trying to say period,. You know,, and I think it's the second condition,, maybe that they're trying to say.

Q

David gehr:, that you know periodic means three times a week. That's, you know, they're, trying to define it that way.

Q

David gehr:, so they're they're, addressing it through just you know basically setting a standard for what it is, and then they say no amplification. and frankly,. If I were interpreting what amplification is it's like.

Q

David gehr: amplification is anything that is increasing the volume of what you're doing. so whether it's electronic mechanical, whatever, I think all of those things would fall under the purview of amplification.

D

Lisasmith pb: great, thank you., so.

Q

David gehr:, there was one last thing that I've heard people make patients about, but in I think it says no amplified. music.

Q

David gehr: in the staff recommended condition,, but there has been kind of a conversation that you all have been having about,. Should it just be amplified sound rather than, you know,, limiting it only to music., yeah, okay.

D

Lisasmith pb: yeah,, it's good to see you, david.

Q

David gehr: yeah, good to see you as well., so.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. There are sorry that took so long. sarah silver pb: no, no,. It was really helpful.. It was very helpful.. I think it address, address the issues of amplification. It addressed the issue of periodic.

G

Sarah silver pb:, what it doesn't it doesn't address. One item which I now if anyone's brought up yet,, which is.

G

Sarah silver pb: how long the music can last on any given of the three days a week because conceivably mean they serve lunch,. They could start music at 11 in the morning and go all the way to 9pm at night.. So I just want to put that on the table.

G

Sarah silver pb: and then just to come back to the thought I had originally started with in terms of peters, proposal.,.

G

Sarah silver pb:- I actually don't think this needs.. I don't think this is a conversation necessarily between the.

G

Sarah silver pb: complainant and the respondent any longer.. That's why they're here., I feel like what we're really being asked to do, is to revise the use.

G

Sarah silver pb: review conditions. I mean, essentially feel like that's what we're being asked to do and, and the only reason we're being asked to do. It is because we've been asked to to find whether the.

G

Sarah silver pb: existing, whether the.

G

Sarah silver pb: respondent has violated the existing use review and I think my sense is, we're all in agreement that yes,.

G

Sarah silver pb:, those conditions were violated, and so now the secondary question or the second question is,. How do we want to revise them. and, um,.

G

Sarah silver pb:, I think the alt for me. the only question still open in terms of what city. the city staff has proposed. Is this question of how long can.

G

Sarah silver pb: music be played on any of the three days that fallen to the definition of period three days a week that fall into the definition of periodic., and I don't know if staff has a suggestion or if that's something I but I do think, that's an issue worth asking.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: thanks sarah, charles.. You had your hand up and sorry. I wanted to let sarah finish.

B

Charles ferro, city of boulder : thanks. oh,, it's fine.. I just wanted to.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : know that david suggestion on using the term amplified sound also, I think, helps with enforceability.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, when we're not talking about just live music, if there's a dj., if someone has a,, you know, an ipod,, you know, that's being played through a pa that it addresses all those.. So I think that that's also helpful when it comes to enforcement.

B

David gehr: david inside harmon, zuckerman,, pb: and you're muted.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: you gotta unmute.

M

David ensign:, I'm sorry about that. um,, yeah. the.. I just wanted to then acknowledge that there was still a question by that by john as to whether.

M

David ensign:, no more than three days per week, qualifies as.

M

David ensign:, as you know,, what do we call it periodic or whatever., and you know,, I mean, no more than three times seems. Okay, I don't know what the rest of the planning board members are feeling about that,, but as a definition of.

M

David ensign:, a periodic performances.. I think that that would make sense to me.. I oh and I just wanted to also highlight that in the approved.

M

David ensign: uses the word. Acoustic is only used., there's nothing about amplified.. So if we, if we say no amplified that does that., that on very specifically acoustic music can have microphones in front of you., I think.

M

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: it. well,. I will say that I harmon zuckerman, pb:. I feel that the.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: the thing that sarah brought up about time is important. Because, you know,. She was right when she said that we're adding conditions to an existing use review. and from what I can see in the approved use, review.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: the language talks about.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. In no way do we intend to create a concert venue of any kind, or to promote ourselves as a live music destination.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. We do plan to have outdoor speakers., so we would be taking away.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: speakers, by the way,. Now that I I read this, if we said acoustic only because right now they are allowed to have outdoor speakers under their the condition. That's under their,, their own statement.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: their operations, plan, we'd be modifying their operations plan.. But the point I started to make,, which I'll get back to is that the noise piece only says we will close by 10pm on weekdays and 11pm on weekends.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, it doesn't say when the noise needs to stop or when the music needs to stop.. So I agree that.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, to the extent that we want to start putting limitations on how much music.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, specifying when the music has to come to an end, is an important thing to do.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: david and side and then john crystal.

M

David ensign: in the recommendation from staff at this say the live music show and no later than 9pm. um So from that standpoint, we could add something like for.

M

David ensign:, no more than three days a week and for no more than,, you know, four hours per day or something.. If we want,. If we think that it would be important to limit how many hours.

M

David ensign: live music would be okay.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, thanks for catching that I don't know how I missed that right there in the condition.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, 9pm, okay,.

M

David ensign:, but if we can see if we like, I say,, if we're concerned about duration,, we could we could consider having on a, you know, for no more than a certain number of hours per that okay.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, I believe, that's probably what sarah was saying.. That's how I interpreted her comment.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: was john next. yeah. john.

B

Harmon zuckerman,, pb: and you'll, you'll need to unmute john.

L

John gerstle pb:, so I'm still a stumbling over over the periodic music and also the, the statement by the applicant. now, the,, the owner of the restaurant, that he was not intending this to be a concert. Venue.

L

John gerstle pb:, I think three times a week, is getting to be a concert venue.. So if it's up to me,, I would reduce the frequency.

L

John gerstle pb:, I think that means he could have, you know, under the three days a week.. He could have it friday, saturday, sundays.

L

John gerstle pb: that that's a concert venue in my opinion.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, I have a question here.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, there's.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, a concert venue is a concert venue, restaurant that has music three days a week is a restaurant that has music three days a week.

AB

Peter vitale pb:: do you buy a ticket to the music. and that's it,, or do you buy a ticket.? Do you buy dinner and you get the music with the dinner.

AB

Peter vitale pb:: let's not call us a concert venue. if it's a restaurant that has music as part of the meal.

AB

Peter vitale pb:. I want to be careful that we're not making up a concert venue where there's not a concert. Venue.

G

Sarah silver pb: peter, can I just respond to that. The staff memo notes that at least this summer,, the restaurant tour was charging a cover charge for the urban of musicians fee or so,. There was a name for it that was specifically related to the music.

G

Sarah silver pb: and he had his reasons to do it, but it's,. It does sort of go to what you just asked.

AB

Peter vitale pb: for the question I was trying to get to. can,. Can you go there just for the music and not buy anything to eat or drink.

AB

Peter vitale pb: at all,, because you're really just there for the music,, which makes it a concert venue and the three days a week point is separate from what happened over the summer,. Is it not.

AB

Peter vitale pb: going forward,.

G

Sarah silver pb: well I,. I think.. I don't know whether it's separate from. I think that the.

AB

Peter vitale pb: really forward., sarah silver pb:, not backward. yeah,, I mean I the.

G

Sarah silver pb: again, the question we're being asked is to decide whether the.

G

Sarah silver pb: restaurant was violating its use, review its use.

V

Sarah silver pb: it.

G

Sarah silver pb: and the answer is sarah silver pb: yes,. It was.

H

Peter vitale pb:, I think the answer is yes,. It was.

G

Sarah silver pb:, so now, going forward.

G

sarah silver pb: to we are we a.

G

Sarah silver pb: how,: how are we thinking about.

G

Sarah silver pb: reframing, the you're, revising the uses that find a balance between the restaurants needs to economic needs and the neighbors.

G

Sarah silver pb: that needs for some quiet and.

G

Sarah silver pb:- and I think these are all really mean- is we'd, be having the same conversation if it was a use review that was coming before us for the first time.

AB

Peter vitale pb: yes, sir., ma'am, finish,. I don't think, three days a week. Is, I think, three days a week is periodic. and I don't think it makes it a concert. Venue.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, so my definition periodic three days a week works because no music venue could exist.. It was only open three days: a week. therefore,, it's not a music venue.. It's a restaurant that has music periodically,, which is three days a week.

M

David ensign: so,, you know, it sounds. oh,. Can I jump in.

M

David ensign:, I should wait to be called on. um, david ensign:. It sounds to me, like the two kinds of things that we are thinking of, changing or enhancing. The staff recommendation to the changing conditions would be to potentially say.

M

David ensign: to potentially expand on amplified music a bit to make it more, a little more clear that includes any microphone usage percent potentially and that we are.

M

David ensign: debating whether the three.

M

David ensign: times per week is periodic.

M

David ensign:, I don't. are there other people who think three times is too much because I'm okay with three,, but I don't know if there are others.

M

Harmon zuckerman, pb: miller., let's do a negative bowl is there. who thinks that three times a week is more than periodic does not constitute periodic. I see john.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: can take we're going to be able to approve three times a week., also in condition number three proposed by staff.. Let's take a negative poll and find out who believes that three captures.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: enough of the site, design issues,, specifically around the airstream, that we can support that. so who can't support condition? Number three are things that needs to be tweaked further.

M

David ensign:, let me just ask one question on that, um, you know,, I will there be a.

M

David ensign: is there an enforcement mechanism that will make sure that that gets resolved, you know, once we say, because it's pretty clear to me that it does it.. But if that the original use.

M

David ensign:, it was approved, is clear. so if,. If we can be assured that somebody's going to go, do an inspection or something and yeah.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, you know that. so right now the airstream is in the van loading area. okay.

B

Harmon zuckerman,, pb: and the, the only reason that it can be allowed to stay there,, as if it has some winter benefits to allow for additional seating and use of the approved us. So.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. If it turns out that the van isn't promoting any or allowing for additional use in the in the yard area. There then.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: eras, irrespective of condition number three, that van that airstream can be forced to be moved right now, okay and and if it does.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: help with with the the coven emergency orders intent,. Then it has to be moved, and the van loading space has to be restored. After those emergency orders, expire.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: so,, you know,. If nobody in the neighborhood cares and enforcement doesn't get a call.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: you know,, may not get handled immediately and I wouldn't expect it to. because boulder is a is a complaint based enforcement system.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, but if, if people are on top of it and they want to see that moved, it's,, it's going to get moved at eventually after the emergency orders expire, or if it's shown that it doesn't meet the intent of the emergency orders now, so I'm I'm fine with three, the way it's written right, now.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : dave to answer a question.. I'm will only see a handful of these types of applications for the wintertime.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : things for like elaborate tense and the summer program. We had we work with all of the operators to break stuff down that they had in the right way and stuff. So.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, while I wouldn't say that we have a formal inspection regime setup, we are following up with folks who are taking advantage of the program to make sure that, when it ends in february that things would be broken down and that the site is restored back to its original approved. Condition..

B

David ensign: right. harmon, zuckerman,, pb: now,. I think that the rest of the questions,, unless we have.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: completely additional conditions that were thinking of applying it. you know,. It seems to me like the direction that we're going is to modify the conditions of their use. Review.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, I'm seeing head nodding, because there are other options. I don't. let's,, let's take a poll.. Does anybody want to revoke the use? Review, raise your hand.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay,, so no interest in that option.. Does anybody want to just request that enforcement go? Take a look at it,, which is the third option that was given by.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: by staff and the report. okay, there's no interest in that., so we're in number to land. we're in apply additional conditions.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and the additional conditions that are in front of us so far, we're fine with number three, as a group,, which is the one about.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: the restoration of the the site plan at the end of the emergency orders effective period, and we seem to be largely fine with.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: at least part of two,, which says that periodic music is three days a week, does constitute periodic music in the approved management plan. Besides john girl. still,, I think six of us are okay with that., so there's an additional piece.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: about the music ending no later than nine, but we were talking about adding a maximum number of hours per day, possibly. so, can,. Can I get sarah to weigh in on. she's nodding.

G

Sarah silver pb: yeah,, I just,. I wanted to make sure that the duration question was put in, put on the table,, but I don't know what the right number is., but I do think it's with. There does need to be a duration.

G

Sarah silver pb: stated: okay.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so anybody want to offer a duration.

B

David ensign:, I would offer four hours per day.

B

harmon zuckerman, pb: okay,, the pizza.

N

Lupita d montoya pb:, I actually,. I believe that, based on what they have been doing so far because sort of what that number is. and you know,, I think for may even be too long.. I don't know.

N

Lupita d montoya pb:, if it's only in the evenings three hours,, but I will liberal more than enough., but if it is spread throughout the day., then it for may make sense. So.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: is it is there.. I thought,, I thought I saw something about having two sessions have about an hour, each which adds up to two hours, a day.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: so to me,, going up to ford is doubling, whether we're doing before., and this is really going by memory.. I don't remember if I, if I've gotten it right, but that's sort of high when, in my mind.

N

M

David ensign: shall I go harmon zuckerman, pb: yes,. It.

H

David ensign: will be the, um,. I don't know if we need to necessarily match the.

M

David ensign:, the particular restaurants, needs so much as to think about what would be a reasonable number right.

M

David ensign:, so if you think it should be a little shorter., we could, we could do that. look at that., but I thought four hours would just keep it to where you know. If they wanted to do a couple of to our sets. They could, you know, from five to seven and eight.

M

David ensign: and seven to nine or something like that.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay, who,, who would not accept david's proposal of four hours.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, I think we're gonna we're gonna, be okay with four hours. lou pizza.

N

Lupita d montoya pb:, you know,, I'm feeling for the students.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, who have to endure that every day I was in their shoes, sometimes,, but I never really have to deal with that sort of level noise,. But I have had noise outside my bedroom.. I live in a home.

N

Lupita d, montoya, pb: and residential any to has been faith disruptive for my sleep and the summers when the wind to have to be open.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: and as sometimes we have neighbors who were renting and he wasn't next door to me much farther than that and they were very disruptive.. So I'm trying to think about.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, for you know from my own experience how bad that was so even for our sounds like a lot to me,, bringing it down to three hours,, maybe a little bit better on my perspective,, but I don't know.. I will vote with it with the group,, but that that's kind of like where I'm coming from.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:: let's try to get to a consensus, if we can,- or at least the majority,, who would who would prefer three hours to four hours.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: good hands, up.

G

Sarah silver pb:, I don't have a preference,, but I'm fine with three or I'm gonna. It's it's a little bit just pulled out of the air.. So I'm fine with three or four.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, okay, lisa.

D

Lisasmith pb:, I'm trying to think like when you do a set and there won't be sound checks. So that won't be as much of a big deal, but just kind of.

D

Lisasmith pb: getting there getting set up getting everything in place. I,. I don't mind for three feels a little tight. I think david's point about around sets is a good one. um,.

D

Lisasmith pb:, I I'm less concerned about the noise because of the ending at nine o'clock in the enforceability of that now. um,. So I guess I'm arguing a bit more toward for, but I could also be my arm twisted into three.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. I think we have a. We have a relatively.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: reasonable majority here at four hours, david. did you want to add something.

M

David ensign: I'll just,, um, yeah,, I'm ready to make a motion. If if people would like me to and then we can bounce it around, my didn't want to just remind us before we make the motion that, with regards to the noise., always you have the ability to.

M

David ensign: complain if it's more than 55 decibels. right, so, um,, you know, it's so remember,, regardless of how this shakes out.. If there are 5055 decimals reaching those residential areas.

M

David ensign:, then that can be dealt with on a complaint. Basis.

AB

Peter vitale pb: so get your temperature checked to confirm or deny symptoms and to complain. it's over 55 decibels.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: all right., now david before you make the most, and I might might suggest that we add one more things. otherwise, we're gonna have to take it around during that discussion of emotion.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: definition of amplified music and acoustic and,. You know, I'll just say that we heard the, the owner of river and would say that without a microphone for the vocalist,, you might as well not have anything or, you know,. Maybe you only be able to have a.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: non vocal music.. You might have chamber music or,, you know, acoustic bluegrass with no singing or something like that.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so I think, given the fact that it's been brought up.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and that there's an ambiguity and the staff report, where the conditions of approval speak to know, amplified music and acoustic live performances,, which seemed to be pretty clearly not amplified.. But then in the body of the text.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: the staff report talks about having one speaker,, which is pulling back from the multiple speakers that are in the approved management plan.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. I think the door is open and we just gotta just got to resolve it, peter.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, I think that peter vitale pb: the, the pa, that the use of the amplification for the vocals, the performer., the for the acoustic instrument,, the difference between having an ample you know when you plug in an amp. Anyone is.

AB

Peter vitale pb: another musician,, but I have been to enough events so.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, you need certain amount of amplification for acoustic music. otherwise, you're not going to get the performers who have the voices that don't carry, which is going to.

AB

Peter vitale pb: excess out an entire group of performers who may not shout or sing as loud or play as loud, and you end up just getting it.

AB

Peter vitale pb: we're missing the point here and I do believe I do agree. We need to define it,, but there's a difference between plugging in a stack of amps and plugging in somehow sounds so that musicians can be heard.. So.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, if we're going to need to define that, here and now,, then.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, if that's what we need to do., let's do it.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. I think we do. any other thoughts.

G

Sarah silver pb: I'll just respond. I you know to david's point.

G

Sarah silver pb: there is the noise., the noise., let the noise of regulations.. So if the amplification goes above 55 then I mean I know it creates work for the neighbors,, but it's.

G

Sarah silver pb: is the law at the moment., and so that's a external factor that can take into account the amplification.

G

Sarah silver pb: and if it's just amplification of the singer's voice.

G

Sarah silver pb:- maybe that's all right., I'm not.

G

Sarah silver pb:, I mean I'll, I'll, take peters point.. I don't go to concerts, very often., so I'll take peters point is accurate.

G

Sarah silver pb: and sarah silver pb: trying to find drive and, as herman pointed out,, the original.

G

Sarah silver pb: use review conditions do allow for a speaker., so in some ways, we'd be taking away something that's already allowed and that they were not violating. They were not violating that condition.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. So I'm just going to say I I agree with peter,. I agree with sarah and I'm really very taken by lisa's point about,, you know, a brass instrument or a drum,. You know,! These can be extremely loud with no amplification at all.. So I'm fine with.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: with a speaker., and I think, you know, in the staff report.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: there's a statement on page six, which says the written statement.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: list of harmon zuckerman, pb: actions taken by the restaurant to accommodate mr costs,, including limiting amplification to a single speaker relocating the speakers to a far end of the outdoor area. now, you know, obviously,. This wasn't enough for mr cast.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: but,, you know, at some level, I think.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: that clause limiting amplification to a single speaker is going to help us write our condition.. If we want to allow a single speaker., so, lisa,, I saw your hand up.

D

Lisasmith pb: yeah, well, and I don't want to belabor the point but but just to follow them on what peter said and what sarah said,, you know,, I think not allowing any degree of amplification.

D

Lisasmith pb: would severely constrain, you know,, who would be there. in fact,. I think it probably exclude most vocalist and a lot of acoustic guitar.

D

Lisasmith pb: not simply because of the space,, but because it's outdoors and because people are also eating and drinking and talking while they're out there.

D

Lisasmith pb:, so the ambient noise level is relatively high., so I would also support the single speaker and microphone and hopefully for the respondent.. You know,. We've talked a lot about the noise concerns., so I hope that that alone, with a single speaker, would help address the issue.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, the pizza man, peter and then john.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:- I just want to know, like to see their application apps out there for decibel meter meters and there's free.

N

Lupita d, montoya, pb: and reliable apps that I think the neighbors, could we use., and this is part of what I think that some of these agreements can be done within the neighbors.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: and the owners, without us being part of it that we set up the parts that belongs to us and they can go further with and suggestion is, you know, have the provisions for speakers.

N

Lupita d montoya pb:, namely the singers, been able to amplify so that they have. You know, performers who you know they need it for their performances.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: and their neighbors have at a way to monitor that they don't go above the levels that are desirable and then that they have an agreement that, when this happens, that will let.

N

Lupita d, montoya, pb: the, the owner, know that maybe they need to go down a little bit and that should be able to be done.. I'm all human beings who can reason and have.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: a conversation. What everybody wants to live in a comfortable place, make a living.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb: and enjoy a community to me. This is this part will be done with quotes and there has to be done as human beings, who can reason and agree.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, so I am I'm good so far., but I think that there are other things that they could do on their own. after this,. That definitely will make this experience a lot more pleasurable for everybody.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: yeah,. I thought I called on peter and then john.

AB

Peter vitale, pb: sir, I'll just add in the last final point that amplification in a setting like this doesn't always equate to volume,. There are certain.

AB

Peter vitale pb: instruments and effects on those instruments that amplification allows to exist.. So I think it's,, I'm glad we're taking this nuanced approach, and I liked how sarah reminded us, along with david, that there's a ceiling here and it's the decibel level and let's.

AB

Peter vitale pb: you know,. Let's try to maintain the level of a fine things in this town and musical performance being an appreciation of it being one of them in within bounds of sound.

AB

Peter vitale pb: done., I think.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. I think I called and younger still excellent david. right. yeah.

L

John gerstle pb:, okay- I I guess I I have a couple thoughts, one in response to the peter, you know,, I'm.

L

John gerstle pb: not sure how realistic it is to expect these discussions among neighbors to take place and be effective,. You have people moving in and out of the apartments across the alley.

L

John gerstle pb: regularly so I mean I don't think it's realistic to expect every time a new neighbor moves into an apartment.

L

John gerstle pb: to have a discussion with the restaurant owner and expect him to be willing to accommodate them because he knows they're going to be gone. In.

L

John gerstle pb: six months or a year anyway.. So I think that is why we are here is to decide what is appropriate behavior on the part of the of the restaurant owner and what are appropriate. Conditions.

L

John gerstle pb: and it would be great. john gerstle pb: if everyone could talk together and agree,, but I think there's a certain power imbalance and impermanence, that that renders that an unrealistic. in this case,.

L

John gerstle pb:, but the other point I wanted to make just with respect to the amplification is that.

L

John gerstle pb:, it doesn't matter if you have only one speaker if they turn crank it up and it's a big speaker,. I don't think you're you're accomplishing much by by placing a condition like that on it.. I think the.

L

John gerstle pb: high.. I understand that some types of music and some instruments work better with speakers,, but the restaurant owner can determine what sort of music works well in his area without speakers, and then you have an easy to enforce objective determination of what he's allowed to do.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, I'm before I go to david., I'm just going to say that I totally agree with you. and you know,. I even have experienced with a nightclub.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: that had a whole array of speakers that were arranged by a very,, very high technology, sound design, firm,, which.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: allowed the speakers to kind of cancel each other out so that it was very hard to hear any sound bleed over the property line to neighboring properties because they had.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, 46 speakers or whatever., so I think maybe the way that we craft the condition is that,. You know, speakers, to the extent that they're necessary to amplify.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, you know voice or something that's more soft and hard number like one, but makes it clear that we're not looking for loud, loud music,, david.

M

David ensign: yeah,, I'm glad you stopped me because this discussion does change.

M

David ensign:, any sort of emotion that I'm trying to draft here as we go along., and you know that the first number one says there shall be no amplified music in the back, outdoor area before the acoustic live music thing,. Do we intend that to mean.

M

David ensign: just recorded music that what people are interpreting that as because then we go on to have this more intense discussion about the live music, performances.

M

David ensign:, so I don't know how people were taking number one, as no amplified music period.

G

Sarah silver pb:: I thought what we had talked about with changing the word music to sound.

M

M

david ensign: okay. um,, I was actually thinking, yeah, okay.

M

David ensign: right sound because, certainly when you have a microphone and speakers, you're, amplifying sound.

M

David ensign:, so that I that number one becomes a little problematic. I was thinking we could put a number to.

M

David ensign:, a phrase like acoustic live music can include microphone application with speaker,, but no electronic instruments or acoustic live music and include microphone in application with speaker necessary for.

M

David ensign: for performance quality, reasonable performance quality or something like that,, but I.

G

Sarah silver pb: there's no depth.. That doesn't mean that's, not a definition of something.

M

David ensign:, I know that's what people were trying to david ensign: get out before was to try to allow for a limited use of microphone speaker in a way that could be acceptable.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, I think, is if we can stick with what we were before, that application. oh,, this speaker, being the human being,, the nice for performance,, but no instruments.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, as long as the ultimate level does not exceed that cosa. We already have.

N

Lupita d montoya pb:, so you just kind of piled up, because what we want is to be able to have the performers to do their job,, but knowing that they used to miss, you know be part of that,. If that's, if that's what we want,, because we talked about speakers in terms of people who want to use speeches for.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:- I don't know graduations by best files or weddings,, on which you should be r us,, but they're still have to be under code. That cannot go above a certain level decimal., and so I think that different pieces can be kind of.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: plays into the into the warden, so that we can make it a workout.. I don't,, I don't really see a problem.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, you can just,, you can do whatever you want, as long as it's under the law of decibel level.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. We don't have to place that in the condition at all, because that that applies to every use in the city.

H

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so I think.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, you know,, I'm coming up with some ideas and dave, not to steal your thunder,, but.

B

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so writing here. one, we could change to. There will be no amplified recorded music in the backyard outdoor area,. If that's what we're trying to accomplish., if we don't want a stereo playing in the backyard., I don't know if that is what we're trying to accomplish, or what the, the owner wants.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, but to the extent that that's what we're really trying to limit in one.

D

Lisasmith pb:, could you repeat that I didn't quite hear what you said was at one speaker, one michael.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: in one just adding the word recorded. There should be no amplified recorded music.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: in the backyard area outdoor area,, then.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: so that handles that kind of music and then live music performances in the backyard area shall be limited to acoustic instruments.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, vocals amplified, to the extent you know to a reasonable extent and then the hours.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: sarah.

G

Sarah silver pb:, just I still think, item one, instead of using the I'm fine with the proposed changes, you're making,, but instead of recorded music.. I just think it should be if it can be recorded music or recorded sound..

G

Sarah silver pb: for sound., I mean,- I just feel like you- do- want to make sure that your music is I'm sure we're getting way too in the weeds here.. But music is a specific thing and.

G

Sarah silver pb: speeches and toasts and and.

G

Sarah silver pb:, our other things., and I just want to think we should cover both.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: about there should be no amplified sound in the backyard outdoor accepted, except as specified below. and then in the next one. You allow for amplified vocals.

G

Sarah silver pb: right. and I always have specifying ones just one speaker.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: no,. I don't think people wanted that.

AB

Peter vitale pb: yeah,, it's missing the point.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, you can have multiple, the more you can have multiple speakers, which make it quieter, because you don't have to take one speaker and turn it up.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, you can have speakers spread out around an outdoor area and have them all very low.. So we got to remember what we're trying to achieve here and we're not sound audio technicians, either. and we're just trying to keep it quiet for the neighbors period.

AB

Peter vitale pb: and then a lot of ways to do that., peter vitale pb:, and I think that harmon explain that, with the ability to use multiple speakers,. If that is the investment and owner wanted to make. In order to achieve the goals.

AB

Peter vitale pb: satisfying their clientele and the neighbors. they can do that.

M

David ensign: I,, you know,, I've been continuing to try to grab some verbiage, and we could say acoustic live music can include microphone, vocal, amplified amplification with speaker,, but no instrument. Amplification.

AB

Peter vitale pb:. What about those instruments that are so fine,? There's that you can't hear or certain effects of a stringed, instrument., okay, wi.

AB

Peter vitale pb: fi in order to hear what the artist is trying to do., I mean,. If we want, if we need to get into this,, let's get into it and let's not render this soulless music list. Town of people miming sounds in a backyard.

AB

David ensign: yeah, my,, my original.

M

David ensign: verbiage that I put forth was acoustic, live music and include microphone both lot microphone amplification with speaker.

M

David ensign: period and people objected to that and said that they didn't want. They only wanted vocal, but um but maybe maybe the people who objected. bring the minority. I'm happy with acoustic live music can include microphone amplification with speaker.

M

David ensign:, because that.

M

David ensign: that just kind of says that if you're doing acoustic live music., you may need to have that,. But.

M

David ensign:, I don't know if that's enough.,.

D

Lisasmith pb:, if I may interject as a vocalist, you you want like one mic on the guitar.. Guitar is a company you and then you want one mic on vocalist,. You don't want them both on a single, so I wouldn't recommend going down to one mic.

M

David ensign:, it doesn't say what yeah my my verbiage doesn't say when mike just says include microphone application with speaker, so it could be multiple microphones.

D

Lisasmith pb: thank you,, you're sorry., I should have just said. I think your original verbiage captures it for that. We probably don't want to get too specific on this., I'm not a sound engineer.. I have like a bit of awareness,, but I just worry that we're kind of getting into the weeds and.

D

Lisasmith pb: in ways that maybe aren't super productive, so.

M

David ensign:, we can even add as long as noise as neighborhood noise restrictions are.

M

David ensign: compliant.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:: we don't need to do that. david ensign:. We don't need to harmon zuckerman, pb: so,. Just so. We have something to work off of.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and I'm happy to just put it out there to the board.. I just sent cindy.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: some conditions and cindy,. If you want to put them up and share the screen., maybe we can look at them and make suggestions and change them if necessary.

A

Cindy spence:, I haven't gotten them yet., so I'm just waiting really.

AB

Peter vitale pb: yeah,, are you in nevada over there.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: hey, give it a second.. It's got to go to space.

A

Cindy spence:, I know.

K

Peter vitale pb: gotta count them.

D

Lisasmith pb: little bit miss your halloween background, cindy.

A

Cindy spence: well, this is my cornucopia fall.

A

I cindy spence:. I still haven't, got it yet. Harmon.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, weird.

A

Harmon zuckerman, pb: yeah, well, I'll, send it from a different email.

A

Cindy spence: there, it is.

M

David ensign:, I was getting ready to send my version. hahaha.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, you can put them both up, david.

AA

David ensign: no,, no,, no, I'll, compare you can compare my ears, and, if I see anything, I'll, say something. okay.

H

Peter vitale pb: david.. Thank you, though, for putting that.

AB

Peter vitale, pb: being the first to take a stab at that., david ensign:. I figured we needed a question about your.

M

Peter vitale pb: audience all yell at you,, or at least me, sorry.,.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, I wouldn't do a backyard concert. This summer. and I saw her at the most remarkable things done with minor amplification of an instrument that you couldn't have otherwise heard.

A

A

Cindy spence: okay, now I can.

A

Cindy spence:: is it large enough for you all to see.

M

David ensign: now,, it's not just.

A

Lisasmith pb:, smaller and cindy spence:, smaller. okay., cindy spence:, is that better. david ensign: yeah. cindy spence: okay. cindy spence:. I need to do something, if I'm going to be able to edit it.. So can you.

D

Lisasmith pb: go ahead,, doc., that's fine, or put a hit reply or whatever.

D

Cindy spence:, that's what I just did. So.

A

Cindy spence: go ahead and discuss.

M

David ensign: well,, it doesn't.

M

David ensign:, it doesn't allow bye, bye, seen amplified vocals.. Does that get to what everything everybody was thinking about,? I guess that's it.

G

Sarah silver pb: yeah harmon. can, I say something.

G

Sarah silver pb:, so since we seem to have gone down a path of amplification., I'm going to say, I stand with lou peta about the number of hours of the three days: a week,, the duration to three hours..

D

Lisasmith pb: would anyone be interested in so many different string, three and a half hours, or would you hold from it three.

G

Sarah silver pb:, I think, three were.. This is all.

G

Peter vitale, pb: I'd, say three, at this point, about six to nine.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: well,. I think I would be if I wanted to split the difference.. I would split the difference by saying that we add the words.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: a total of three, because that way, if, if there's a jazz brunch that goes from 10 to two,, they can play during the brunch., they just have to keep that four hour period down to three hours of performance.

AB

Peter vitale pb: I make some.

G

Sarah silver pb: up to three hours.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: well,. I would use the word a total of three hours.

G

Sarah silver pb:, a total of three hours. okay, perfect.

G

lisasmith pb: yeah,. I like that because I was that issue addressed and yeah. That's good.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, you guys something about being a jazz brunch. thanks.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: yeah,, we got it, you know if it's going to be, like john crystal said: friday,, saturday, and sunday,. You definitely want the sunday, want to be a brunch.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, maybe not.

M

David ensign:, we're saying you can't have an easy performance because you've taken up your three hours. right.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: there you go.

A

Cindy spence: I'm going to share a different screen: real quick., I'm.

A

Cindy spence:, so don't panic.

M

David ensign:, I'm just a little concerned when we talked about the microphones being placed in front of instruments,. Whether the wording is might make that a little difficult because it says amplified vocals only.

A

Cindy spence: alright,, so I made the change you just discussed about the total of three hours.

A

Cindy spence: right there.

G

Sarah silver pb:, no it's,, it's, um,, it would sort of be a little more clear, no more than three days per week. I, for a total of three hours each each of those days, because otherwise it's gonna. It reads as if it's three days a week for a total of three hours.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: yeah,. Why don't we.

G

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay,, and no more than a total of three hours per day.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: oh,, sorry, cindy., it's below.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so after the parents, medical, so after the comma. and now you can leave, you can leave that just type in, and no more than a.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: there you go. and then at the end, three hours per day.

B

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: any thoughts.

D

Lisasmith pb:. I think there was a good point about where to put the word, amplified, I'm and I'm not sure that where I'm thinking is going to meet everyone's request.

D

Lisasmith pb:, but that right now. we have amplified only in front of vocals,, which makes it sound like you can only amplify vocals,, which I don't think was our intent.. So maybe it's live. Music performances in the backyard outdoor area should be limited to amplified acoustic instruments and vocals.

M

David ensign:, I agree.. I think that was what we were hearing. yeah.

G

Sarah silver pb: hey,- I just want to go back something david said a couple minutes ago about adding the clause about within the the noise ordinance limits.. I actually think that's valuable because neighbors, as we heard from the neighbors who spoke.

G

Sarah silver pb: figuring out what is what in the city code is pretty complicated, and most people are not going to spend the time doing it., and I do think it's worth just adding that reference so that if neighbors do have complaints,, they know where to go. Look in the code and and and.

G

Sarah silver pb: informed.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: sarah,. What, with all due respect to you and our freshly minted attorney? Complainant. people don't need to know the section of the code to make a noise complaint, if they think it's too loud,, they just call in and they just say it's too loud, and then enforcement comes out and looks.

M

David ensign: mean yeah, I mean just even though I brought that up earlier. I.

M

David ensign: think in no, nobody in the public is going to read this condition, either necessarily.. So the fact that they have that recourse.

M

David ensign: doesn't necessarily need to be spelled out. Here. I mean, well,. Am I saying that right? Yeah I mean it's. It's just as archaic to put it here is to know that it exists. anyway,, but.

AB

David ensign: and I don't know.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: well, we've got emotion.

M

David ensign:, I think, I'm I think sarah might have. oh, no. you still there.

X

Sarah silver pb:, I'm here., okay.

M

David ensign:, that was waiting for you to get.

G

Sarah silver pb: well,, I was, I was shot down,. So there was no point and reacting.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and I don't consider that being shut down.. That was my opinion., but if other other members of the board want to support you,, they can speak up. yeah,. I can.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: well,, I'm harmon, zuckerman, pb:, not owning this is motion.. I just put the language up on on the help to get cindy, the language,, so she could put it up on the screen.. I think this is everyone's motion, who's worked on it.. So is there anyone who wants to make this motion or add to this motion and then make a motion.

G

Sarah silver pb: I'll make the motion. um,, but should I do I read the.

G

Sarah silver pb: whole on the document just closed on. Me. am I reading.

G

Sarah silver pb: emotion to find the from from page to have a jet. okay,. So I move.

G

Harmon zuckerman, pb: yes,. I think it would be fine if you want to make two motions.. If you want to make one that planning board finds.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: finds the used to be out of compliance and then another applying the conditions or you can put it in one.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and then the only suggestion I would make is, instead of saying, and subject to the conditions recommended in the staff. Memo, you just say, and subject to the following conditions.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and then read out.

L

John gerstle, pb: and I, I have a request.. I prefer to be two motions,, because I would like to agree with the first one. You you proposed, and I won't be supporting the,. The second one.

G

Sarah silver pb: okay,, so I'm going to make., just make sure I'm clear, I'm going to make a motion that planning board finds that the.

G

Sarah silver pb:, the respondent, was the respondent or that.

G

Sarah silver pb:, the respondent, was out of compliance with his with the use. Review. is that correct,? That's the first motion.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: yeah,. I think you can just take the first clause of this. The first.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: of the sentence, the motion on page two,, that the conditions have not been man.

G

Sarah silver pb: okay,, so sarah silver pb: okay,, so making a motion to find that the conditions of the development agreement for approval l.- you are 2015 dash 00087, have not been met and are adopting the staff memorandum, and it's attachments as as findings of fact.. That's the first motion. great.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: I'll second that., so we have emotion on the table by silver seconded by zukerman,. Is there any discussion to the motion and I can't see everybody so just speak.? I can't see your hands.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay. hearing the discussion. cindy spence:, I'm going to stop sharing.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: thanks, cindy., so harmon zuckerman, pb:. So then, let's make this the motion of the board.. The planning board moves to find that the conditions of the development agreement for approval.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: l., you are 2015 dash triple 087, have not been met, adopting the staff memorandum and its attachments his findings. Effect.. Can I get a we're just going to do a roll call vote so dividends time.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, I understood all.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: their silver.

G

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, I repeat them and toya.

H

Harmon zuckerman, pb: I peter patel.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, I think he said yes.

B

peter vitale, pb: oh,, hi., harmon, zuckerman, pb: thanks peter vitality and lisa smith.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: I and I will vote,. I said the first motion passes unanimously.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and now, yeah.

G

Sarah silver pb:, so the second motion is going to be the conditions. Planning board recommends todd pursuant to the first motion. correct.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: yeah,, so you can just go ahead.

G

Sarah silver pb: and those conditions are item one,. There shall be no amplified sound in the backyard outdoor area,, except a specified below.

G

Sarah silver pb: number to live music performances in the backyard outdoor area. she'll be limited,, but don't go anywhere. she'll be limited to amplified acoustic.

G

Sarah silver pb: instruments and vocals, no more than three days per week,, which would constitute periodic music. As stated in the previously approved, managed meant plan.

G

Sarah silver pb: and no more than a total of three hours per day., the live music show no later than 9pm and then item three,. The site, design and the restaurant operation shall be consistent per the approved plans for the use, except as site plan.

G

Sarah silver pb: under the use may be temporarily.

G

Sarah silver pb: operated pursuant to a permit, approved undercover 19 emergency orders.

B

M

David ensign: I'll second, that one.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and I'm going to ask harmon zuckerman, pb:. So we have a motion on the table by silver,, a second by n sign and I'm going to ask if I can add a friendly amendment to that and and that question is only to be answered by sarah as the motion maker, a yes or no.

G

Harmon zuckerman, pb: yes,, the friendly, would just be to add language at the beginning, saying to carry out the purposes of the original approval planning, board.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: planning board adds the following: condition.

G

Sarah silver pb: okay, and with a friendly., do I need to respond to that or is it open to the entire.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: no,, it's just,! If you.

G

Sarah silver pb: come, yes. okay., sarah silver pb:, to clarify its clarifying. yeah.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay,, so with that friendly.. Is there any additional comment to the motion. again, planning,, where you can just speak.? I can't see all of you at once.

D

Lisasmith pb:: could we perhaps repeat that language. so cindy has the chance to incorporate it into the draft.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: or so, cindy.. If you want to type at the beginning.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, it would say.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, I maybe I should just use the language straighter.. The staff report.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: winning board of imposes the following additional conditions to carry out the purposes of the original approval.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and then you can just grab.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, you can write planning board, imposes if sarah's. Okay with that language.

H

Harmon zuckerman, pb: yes. and then you can just grab from the staff report on page two. number two.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: additional conditions or modifications to carry out the purpose or actually,. We don't need to say or modifications, just additional conditions to carry out the purposes of the original approval and you don't have to type all that, cindy.

H

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay. so, any discussion to the motion. now, lisa.. Were you satisfied with that.

D

Lisasmith pb: sounds great.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. So then I'm going to make this the motion of the board.

B

Harmon zuckerman,, pb: or second motion is planning board, imposes the following additional conditions to carry out the purposes of the original approval.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: one there, she'll be able to find music. Sorry one. There shall be no amplified sound in the backyard outdoor area,, except as specified below.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: to live music performances in the backyard outdoor area. she'll, be limited to amplified acoustic instruments and vocals and more than three days per week,, which would constitute periodic. music.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, as stated in the previously approved management plan, and no more than a total of three hours live. Music show no later than 9pm three site design and the restaurant operations will be consistent for the approved plans for us,, except as.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, I don't want that's, there's some kind of typo.

D

Lisasmith pb: in the final. and number three, carmen.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: yeah shabnam.. What did you mean by that,? Can we fix that problem? There.

B

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, it should be temporarily modified.

X

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, except.

A

Cindy spence:, except as site, plan. yeah,, there's a word missing.

J

Shabnam bista:, I think it's temporarily modified, except.

D

Lisasmith pb: well,. I.

M

David ensign: think it actually is okay,, but you just have to say it. A certain way.

M

David ensign: oh,.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, I don't think so.

G

Sarah silver pb:: here's how it reads in the unwritten, the original memo., sarah silver pb:, the site design in the restaurant operation shall be consistent per the approved plans for the use, comma,, except as site plan under the use, maybe temporarily operated pursuant to a permit, approved undercover 19 emergency orders.

G

Lisasmith pb:, we might need.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, except that site plan.

M

David ensign:, I think you guys with that.

G

Sarah silver pb:, except as site plan under the use.

G

Sarah silver pb:, maybe.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. I think it just changed the word as to that., except this except you could say,, except that the site plan under the us.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: right.

G

Sarah silver pb:, except as the year and I think maybe it's missing, like original site plan.

D

Lisasmith pb:, but we're changing it.. So, let's see the site design and the restaurant operation shall be consistent for the approved plans for the use.

D

Lisasmith pb:, except I would do, except as a site plan comma under the use, comma,, maybe temporarily, operated pursuant to permit approved undercoat under cobra 19, emergency orders., so yeah,, except as the site plan, or that I'm not sure..

AB

Peter vitale pb:, yet peter vitale pb:, except the previously approved site plan.

G

Sarah silver pb:, maybe sarah silver pb: maybe.- got you- can get rid of under the years. just say, maybe temporarily operated pursuant to.

G

Sarah silver pb:, I don't think you need under the use sarah silver pb:, I think that's sort of a phrase. lisasmith pb:, also get rid of the positive.. I think you can get rid of it.. It doesn't change the meaning. yeah.

AB

Peter vitale pb: wow,, the use of you just positive.

G

Lisasmith pb: english major problem., sarah silver pb:, it could be like, except as that site plan,, maybe temporarily, operated pursuant to a permit. Approved.

D

Lisasmith pb: well, that you don't really need because we are going to find it in the first cause.

G

Sarah silver pb:, like I was. yeah, okay.,.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. I think what we're talking about is that the current site, plan,, maybe temporarily, operated.

M

David ensign: be except that the site plan, without the comment,, maybe temporarily, operated.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: yeah,. I think we might want to say the current site plan, because that's not the one that was approved.

D

Lisasmith pb: right, yeah.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. So can you just change as two words back to that.

B

David ensign: yeah. yeah,, it's great.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, okay., harmon, zuckerman, pb:, now planning word seems to be nodding their head that this is the intent shabnam.. Is this the intent that you you met to capture.

J

Shabnam bista: yes,, I'm just going to read it out. Loud.

J

Shabnam bista: and the site, design and rest and the restaurant operations will be consistent for the approved plans for the us,, except that the current site, plan,, maybe temporarily, operated pursuant to a permit approved under 19 emergency orders. yes.. That makes sense to me.

J

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, that's the intent. okay,. So it's a lot to read those since we have it on the screen., I'm not going to read it again that that which we have just.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, we've just agreed upon as a board, will be the motion of the board and I'll take a roll call. Vote.

L

John gerstle pb: harmon, can I john gerstle pb:? Do I get a chance to explain why I'm not supporting this.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: absolutely. john., I'm sorry,. I just couldn't see you there.

L

Yeah. john gerstle pb:, so I think my my problem with this is that I think it's.

L

John gerstle pb: inadequate in terms of remedy for the neighboring residents.

L

John gerstle pb: that that this will lead to continuing concerns of the same type that they've already made, and therefore I don't support it.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so I also,. I think I want to pick up on one. one other thing and cindy,. Can you put that language backup on the back up on the screen.

B

For harmon zuckerman, pb:, I'm sorry that we're subjecting people for our meeting. there's a lot of sausage being made.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. We really want to get it right. and the way that it's written right, now.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: live music, performances. she'll, be limited to amplified acoustic instruments and vocals, and I really think we ought to add amplified or unamplified.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: one interpretation of this would be that we're requiring amplified. music.

D

Lisasmith pb:, I agree. herman.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so sarah,, would you accept another friendly amendment to your motion and. well,? I mean, we're. Actually it's not really a friendly, because I've already made this the motion of the board,, but.

G

Sarah silver pb: is there a way to amend, not to make it friendly.

G

Sarah silver pb: to edit it is that is that doable.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: yeah,. I think we can amend the motion.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, or we can just vote this one down and do a new one. david, dear. what's,. What's the best procedure, you think for amending this motion.

A

Cindy spence: you're, muted, david.

Q

David gehr: knight,. I turn the microphone off., sorry about that.. I would just do a substitute motion.

Q

David gehr: okay, somebody offer this as a substitute you vote on this first.. If it does,, if it doesn't pass,, then you go back to the motion that was on the floor. Before. ok.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: though,, given that sarah's got the motion on the floor. I'll, I'll make the substitute.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and I'm going to make a substitute motion that live music performances in the backyard that everything else is the same accepted into.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, it should read, live music performances in the backyard outdoor area. she'll, be limited to amplified a to unamplified or amplified acoustic instruments and vocals, and the rest remains the same.

M

David ensign: oh, yes. david ensign:, took me a while to figure out why you were.

D

Lisasmith pb: record requiring amplification,, which I think was not the intent.

M

David ensign:, you may not think without a microphone., okay. yeah.

Q

David gehr:, we need a second for the substitute motion.

M

David ensign: oh, I'll second up.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay,, so we've got substitute motion by zukerman seconded by.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: inside and cindy,. Can you get the text up on the screen for us as well., so we can see it.

A

Cindy spence: can't see it.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: working in a different document because nothing's been changing on this one.

A

Cindy spence:, so david, yeah,, I'm sorry,. I was working on the minutes. sorry.

A

AB

Peter vitale pb: good, your secondary emotion that would peter vitale pb: harm an email to cindy,, so you're, technically or second in that emotion.

AB

David ensign:, thank you for that., peter vitale, pb: welcome,. I can't help it.

AB

peter vitale pb:. We don't do it.

AB

peter vitale pb:. You have roadways, talk about so exciting.

D

Lisasmith pb: the city.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, let's say or instead of and cindy.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay., harmon, zuckerman,, pb:, all right,, so any any more discussion to this motion.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay,, then I'm going to, I'm going to read this one out. Again.

B

Just for clarity, sake.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: planning board imposes additional conditions to carry out the purposes.. Sorry. planning board imposes the following additional conditions to carry out the purposes of the original approval.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: one, there shall be no amplified sound in the backyard outdoor area,, except as specified below.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: to live music performances in the backyard outdoor area. she'll be limited. Unamplified are amplified.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: acoustic instruments and vocals, no more than three days per week,, which would constitute periodic music. As stated in the previously approved management, plan.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and no more than a total of three hours per day to live music show no later than 9pm.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, three, the site design and the restaurant operation. she'll be consistent per the approved plans for the us,, except that the current site plan may be temporarily operated pursuant to a permit approved under coven 19 emergency orders.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: any more discussion to that.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay,, then let's do a roll call. Vote.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. I see a chat coming in from josh and sometimes you know it is a good idea to.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: to check in with the applicant before you impose conditions.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so rather than allowed chat into the discussion., I'm going to give. I'm going to give the property owner, a chance to speak.

R

Josh dinar:, I appreciate that. thank you., josh dinar: and thank you for all the thoughtful.

R

Josh dinar: conversation.

R

josh dinar:, I did want to.. I did want to just make sure that that we qualified that we do play when we don't have live music, which is which is, you know, other than the summer is most of the time.

R

Josh dinar:, we do have outdoor wired speakers attached to the building and have from the beginning.. I don't know whether that qualifies as amplified sound or not., but that's recorded background music dinner music that that's that's, played.

R

Josh dinar:, I don't think that has ever been at issue. obviously,. Everything needs to.

R

Josh dinar: continue to fall within the sound limits,, but that is something that we have done on a.

R

Josh dinar: throughout all service, when we have outdoor seating.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: thanks. um,. So I anticipated that when when when we first started talking about not allowing any amplified, sound.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and I think it's it merits having some additional discussion.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: where,, where our planning board members on the potential allowance of dinner, music recorded, dinner., music.

AB

Peter vitale pb:. If we were to not allow that we that we know that,, then all of a sudden,- that's not allowed in any restaurant anywhere in.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: set a precedent, peter.. This is just.

H

Peter vitale pb: well,.

G

Sarah silver pb:: it seems to me that that this was not part of the.

G

Sarah silver pb: evaluation of whether the applicant was a was a.

G

Sarah silver pb: operating within the existing conditions. and it seems to me, like it.,.

G

Sarah silver pb:: it's something that sarah silver pb: we would we have to look at. If we have to look at it,, we should look at it. Separately.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: john.

L

John gerstle pb: well I,. I think I just see in the text that there is a note that it has been.

L

John gerstle pb: bothersome to the neighbors as well., so I'm not sure it should be eliminated from our discussion.

AB

Peter vitale pb: can we protect every neighbor who moves in next to a restaurant from being bothered.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: david.

M

David ensign: um, yeah,, I just, um,. I know that we've been working with this stuff, recommendation. originally, that number one said, there shall be no amplified music in the backyard outdoor area period. Shabnam was that.

M

David ensign:, what was the intention that to include recorded music when staff recommended that I'm just kind of curious to get that perspective before we go off and deliberate more.

J

Shabnam bista:, I think that was the intent.

M

David ensign:, okay, so stafford actually recommended. We go that way,, which would be taking away the ability for this restaurant that has been doing that in the past to do it.. So I guess that's the question in front of us.: do we want to.

M

David ensign: we want to, we can go reasonable.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, so everything we do. that makes it harder for.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, this restaurant to survive is contributing and one more vacancy, and I understand we have to balance the neighbors who lives next live next to it,, but.

AB

Peter vitale pb: this kind of like rampage through this whole experience, worries me because there's gonna be collateral. Damage.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, there's people who work at this place. and if they don't have jobs, doing anything that is going to have an impact.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, so I don't think people will not go there. After, like oh wow, you can hear a pin drop it when you're dining outside now, because there was no background music period,, but at the same time, it bothers me..

AB

Peter vitale pb: clearly,.

M

David ensign: well,. We certainly can make sure that it says that we can. we're going to have to do another substitute motion,. I guess. but, um,. We could. We could consider making that end at 9pm for sure, right, that that outdoor music, that any that any recorded sound.

M

David ensign: would be turned off at 9pm.

AB

Peter vitale pb: that makes sense. harmon zuckerman, pb: one way to peter vitale, pb: always tilt up anyway, because someone is going to turn it up. Accident, who works, there. and often,. So nine o'clock is a nice way to at least stop it. That way.

M

David ensign:, I think nine o'clock reasonable.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. One way to do it would be where it says: she'll be limited to.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. I need the language up again. but where it says.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: before it says no more than three days per week.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: cindy,. Can you put it up? Again. cindy spence: work on it.

M

David ensign: yeah,, I think you need, since we have accepted specified below, we could actually add a number, just for pre recorded stuff.

A

Cindy spence:, you can see it right.

H

Cindy spence: yeah, okay.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. So if it were to say something like music in the backyard, outdoor area should be limited to an amplified, are amplified acoustic instruments and vocals.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: background quote: unquote: dinner, music, tama, no more than three days per week,, etc. and then just take out. The word live in the last sentence,. The music show no later than nine.

B

David ensign:, but that means they can't play music,, except for for our. You know those 3.543 hours, a day.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: well,, you could just add an extra david,. You could just add an extra number. Just an extra condition.

M

David ensign: yes. david ensign:, that's what I was thinking.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: specified below so you could just add a condition that says you know background dinner, music. she'll be allowed during you know, hours of operation and must be shut off by 9pm.

B

David ensign: there you go. that's what I was thinking. harmon zuckerman,, pb:, that you know you want to do. That, david,! You want to david ensign:. I yeah.

M

David ensign: so number a new number three, after to cindy,. If you could, after nine o'clock pm in number to create a new line and.

A

Cindy spence:, I'm gonna, have to cindy spence: share my screen and reshare a new screen. so, one moment.

M

David ensign: pre recorded. background music during operational hours.

M

David ensign: they'll be allowed,, but must be shut off no later than nine o'clock. Pm.

M

David ensign:, no later than.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay,, so harmon zuckerman, pb: there.

B

harmon, zuckerman, pb:. We read this so many times., I'm just gonna. The motion of david's motion is is has been made with the addition of this new.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: paragraph three.. Is there a second for david's, motion.

D

Lisasmith pb: I'll second.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: is. We have emotion on the floor by inside seconded by smith, any discussion to the motion.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: to speak.. I can't see all of you.

H

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: ok,, so the motion of the board is.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: that.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: planning board imposes the following additional conditions to carry out the purposes of the original approval.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and those conditions,. Those additional conditions are the ones that you see on your screen right now., and that is the motion of the board.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: take a roll call, vote.

B

harmon, zuckerman, pb: david and sign harmon zuckerman, pb:. I you know vitaly.

H

Lisasmith pb: hi,, mrs. smith. hi.

B

Peter vitale pb: sarah silver high harmon zuckerman, pb:, the pizza montoya harmon, zuckerman, pb: high on versatile.

L

Harmon zuckerman, pb: know, and I'll vote eyes.. So the motion carries 621.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: thanks for everybody's patience as we work through that.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, you people need a break. before we move on to matters or the second public, hearing. sorry.

D

Lisasmith pb:, I wouldn't mind one.

B

Okay. harmon zuckerman, pb:, that's it's 1006! Let's just take five this time and make it 1011.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: alright,, it's 1010 like to get back to it.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: like to thank everybody for sticking with on a difficult matter.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and thanks staff for their guidance as well.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: now by rule.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: agenda items will not be commenced after 10pm, without a majority vote of the board.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so it's 1010.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and I'm going to need a roll call. Vote.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: to determine whether we're going to continue this or I shouldn't, say, continue this meeting,, I should say a keep. Going. continue, means something else and meeting parlous.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so do we want to take on the next public hearing matter after 10 o'clock? Is the question.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: I'll start with a roll call vote. When I get to four yeses., we can stop because we just need a majority, david.

M

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, yes, peter.

B

Peter vitale pb: sorry, yes. lisasmith, pb:, lisa yes. john gerstle, pb: done., yes., harmon, zuckerman,, pb: okay,. It's not that. I don't think that sarah lou peter and I are important,, but we've achieved the majority.. So we're going to keep going.

G

Sarah silver pb:- I just ask a quick, question., sarah silver pb:, given how late it already is. can we can we push the matters issue to the next meeting.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: there we'll have another vote.

G

Sarah silver pb: okay., all right.

D

Lisasmith pb: think it's a fair question., just if we were going to maybe be releasing some of those staff and other folks from I'm staying on the call.. But let me know harmon, if that's inappropriate, to this.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: is a. why don't we., so we have phil here. and I think the,. The question would be, well posed to him since he's here to present the ceo south matter.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, and also to charles and cindy,, as they are very responsible for our meeting agenda.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, so I'll turn it to charles first.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. Do you want to just continue the matter tonight on see yourself to the next planning board meeting, charles.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder, : well, and nobody has filled up to click on here.. I think we can probably forego the presentation, and I think we had two points for.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, the board's discussion.

K

charles ferro, city of boulder :. I think the other thing that we could probably do is we could just kind of tee it up talk about a little bit. More can email feedback to fill., or we can just continue it.

M

David ensign: if,. If we continue it. um,, it does kind of brought up against the schedule with city council,. The city council meetings on the 17th, is that correct.

K

Yeah, so charles ferro, city of boulder, : and actually,, that's a good point. dave,, because we don't have another meeting between them and now.

K

Harmon zuckerman, pb: calendar., I'm okay with doing a late one tonight.. If that's what it takes.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, of course, I'm not going to be there because I will refuse.. So I'm volunteering you for.

AB

Peter vitale pb: serious., you just said, yeah, okay, good., thanks for reminding us.

D

Lisasmith pb: to tease him about that too.

G

Sarah silver pb:, so I just like to point.. Nobody knows this,, but I happen to be in on the east coast.

G

Sarah silver pb:, so it's already sarah silver pb: midnight here., so at late night for me, is going to be very,, very, very late and I'm happy to stay up. But if there's any possibility of continuing it, I that I would appreciate that.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : number., now that fills out just to double check the schedule, phil. we're going to planning our., I'm sorry. we're going to counsel with this on the 17th. correct.

B

B

harmon zuckerman,, pb: girls.. Another possibility is, is that we go to the ceo south matter now, given the calendar and hold off on the north boulder sub community plan, matter.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: until another day.

G

Sarah silver pb:: that's a good idea.

C

Jean gatza, staff, moderator, (she/her):, or maybe you just might want to check and see if there's anybody here to speak to the public on that item.

M

David ensign: yeah,, the public may be waiting.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder, : and gina would put the same question to you,. Do we have city council calendar issues with the north boulder sub community plan.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): we do and I'm hoping that can be a really short discussion.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, we were hoping that could be a 10 minute, item.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: well,. If david ensign:, I think we can do it., harmon, zuckerman, pb:, then, let's, let's push on and we'll go straight to the,. The second public hearing,, which is the north boulder sub community plan.. Can I get a vote on is? Does the vote standard? Is anybody want to change their vote.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay,, then we're moving on to public hearing item for be.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, the agenda title is public hearing and planning board consideration of emotion to amend the north boulder sub community plan.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: by adoption of a refined streetscape plan for north broadway in the commercial area to reflect direction recommended in the public process for the north folder. sorry. north broadway reconstruction project.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, I'm going to turn it directly to charles and charles. If you can queue up the staff presentation for us,, that would be great.. Thank you.

B

Charles ferro, city of boulder : take it away gene.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): great., I will do that. um,. Can you all see my screen and am I showing this correctly. there? We go. that's probably better.

D

Lisasmith pb: now,, oh yes,, that's good.,.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): there we go. okay. purpose of this item- is to adopt very limited revisions to the north, boulder sub community.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): plan.. These will replace the streetscape diagram and description for broadway in the commercial area.

C

Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her):, this recommended streetscape or street section- reflects a riff, refined design for north broadway.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, that was based on the analysis and community process over the past few years as part of the north broad rate, reconstruction, project.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, as you know,, we don't frequently update the sub community plan.. It's been a stable tool to guide development in north boulder,. It's important to update this street section four north broadway, because it provides the basis for requirements of future development projects along the corridor.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): oops, oops,- I was meant to be on that slide. sorry.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):- this is all in your memo., so I'm sure that you guys saw all of this specifically.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, the north broadway reconstruction project had extensive public process starting in 2016. This work included many public meetings and coordination with community members and organizations.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): a little over a year, ago, the transportation advisory board unanimously recommended the final design that you see represented in the described materials.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, the north boulder sub community plan provided an initial streetscape plan for north broadway, indicating that a more detailed plan would be developed.

C

Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her): and this refined design and region and the reconstruction project provide a greater level of detail to implement the overall goals in the north boulder sub community plan.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): to encourage walking, biking and transit use by providing safe, comfortable and convenient pedestrian and bicycle path. Connections specifically.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, this refined design includes buffered bike lanes from legal drive to us 36 and it off street multi use path along the west side of broadway.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her):, these aspects of the design were incorporated specific specifically to respond to feedback from community member community members prioritizing safety.

C

Jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her):, we have a proposed motion listed here and garrett slater with art. Public works. Transportation department is here to answer any questions as well.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, hey julie., harmon, zuckerman, pb:, thanks gene for a great presentation.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and a good staff report,, which I went through as well. and I'm sure all the other members did.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: before we jump to a motion., we've got some things to do.. So if you can take the screen, down, please.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: do any planning board members have any questions of staff.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: era.

G

Sarah silver pb:- I just have one question. the,, the presence of a bike lane between a parked parking lane and a driving lane.

G

Sarah silver pb: didn't the city., try that up on, I think college avenue or pennsylvania avenue and then ended up finding that that didn't work very well for bike. Safety.

C

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): gear at him and ask you to answer that. One.

AC

Gerrit slatter: garrett slater principal transportation projects engineer with the department of transportation and mobility and to answer the question that was a.

AC

Gerrit slatter: project that was actually considered a living lab., so I guess, have an experiment, if you will, along university.,.

AC

Gerrit slatter: and there were a set of conditions that weren't conducive to a successful outcome with that experiment along university.. But, having said that,, I would note that the condition is proposed for north broadway does not and to include a bicycle facility between park vehicles and.

AC

Gerrit slatter:, between particles in the curve,, but rather having bicycles between the travel lane and the park lane.. So whereas university had had the the vehicles parked. and then there was the.

AC

Gerrit slatter:, the bicycle and on the outside of that, and some of the challenge was particularly on the south side of the street,, which had limited sun, exposure, lots of icing and snow accumulation and the bicycle facilities on.

AC

Gerrit slatter: any case, I'm I'm getting a little bit into the details, there. but it,, but it's a different facility type proposed for north broadway.

G

Sarah silver pb: okay, thank you.. I thank you very much for that. Clarification.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: yeah, garrett.. I think that that real quick., john and I'll always.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: be the,. The university concept would have been great if it didn't snow.. I like the idea of protecting bikes with cars.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: but, uh,, but I like this, this too.. I think it looks like there's a different pavement material in the parking and bike lanes,. Is that correct.

AC

Gerrit slatter: yes,, so we are proposing to have an asphalt material underneath the the bicycle lane,, as well as the the park area and concrete payment under the travel lanes, and partly that is to, to delineate the the print modes.. It's also a cost saving measure,, but.

AC

Gerrit slatter:, another great benefit is that it will help with the construction phase of the project as we build this one side of the street at a time, being able to have asphalt,, which is a little bit more of a flexible material, will help in the construction of the end facility.

AC

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. I just want to applaud that choice.. I think, you know, when we look at places that have really good bike. Infrastructure,, there's oftentimes.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: a slight grade: separation, like a curb or a gutter.. We have a gutter between the driving lane and the bike lane, and there's a there's oftentimes a change in materiality from say, asphalt to pavers,, it's pretty common in in holland. for example,. You go to the pavers when you're on the bike.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: that kind of stuff., so I'm really excited about this. and I, like the design a lot john.

L

John gerstle pb: yeah., just a quick question.. I see that in the new scheme. there's only very light tree is on the side and none in the center lane, by comparison to the.

L

John gerstle pb: to the previous or to the existing arrangement.. Now I presume that means we've given up on trees down the middle of the road for the entire scratch, and but I I presume there still will be trees on on either side.

L

Gerrit slatter:, so there are a number of existing conditions along this segment and north broadway that are precluding the full implementation of the landscape.

AC

Gerrit slatter:, as contemplated and the north boulder sub community plan, and so.

AC

Gerrit slatter:, the first would be that there are preponderance of existing driveways,, particularly along the west side of broadway..

AC

Gerrit slatter: and where you have left turning vehicles into a number of those driveways that precludes being able to have a raise. median with planting, such as trees.

AC

Gerrit slatter:, and so for the foreseeable future will need to maintain that left turn lane.

AC

Gerrit slatter: would also need to have maintained the left turn lane at intersections, of course, and then further complicating things is that there is an existing overhead.

AC

Gerrit slatter: set of utility and power lines along the west side, which limits our ability to plant.

AC

Gerrit slatter: large scale trees until redevelopment takes place on the west side of north broadway., so the existing trees that are planted along the east side will continue to be present and then, as.

AC

Gerrit slatter:, the land use changes over time.. The hope is that that there will be the opportunity for more enhance tree plantings.

L

John gerstle pb: thank you. thanks.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, the other questions for garrett.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: any questions for gene.

B

Okay. harmon zuckerman, pb: public comment.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: handed over to jane,. You can be the moderator and the presenter. at the same time,. If you want.

A

Cindy spence: I'm trying to help out here a little bit on that front.. I don't see anyone any hands raised.. If anyone from the public would like to speak to this matter,, please feel free to raise your hand and then we will.

A

Cindy spence: get you all set up.

A

Cindy spence: going once.

A

Cindy spence: going twice., I don't see anyone raising their hand.

A

Cindy spence: herman., I don't see anyone it good.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and let's uh,, let's go to our deliberation or emotion.. Is there anyone on the planning board who would like to either.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: bring up an item of deliberation, or to suggest emotion.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: looks like we've got david and then john crystal both raise their hands,, but I saw david's first.

M

David ensign: in setting someone up to make a motion,. I would just like to say that I just think it's great to see this work from staff and it was wonderful to see that the transportation advisory board header unanimously approved this great work.. So I'm I'm prepared to support this.

H

Harmon zuckerman, pb: great job.

M

David ensign:, thank you for being here, by the way., gerrit slatter: here.

L

John gerstle pb: well,, I would move to amend the north boulder sub community plan by adoption of of refined streetscape plan for north broadway in the commercial area to reflect the direction recommended in the public process for the north broadway reconstruction project..

L

John gerstle pb:- and I can just mentioned that I enjoyed very much. I participated in some of the field trips that the jonathan, his colleagues arrange them. Potter was very useful.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, that's great. and that last bit isn't part of the motion right john.

B

John gerstle pb:, that's correct., harmon zuckerman,, pb: okay, thank you.. We get a second for that.

B

Harmon zuckerman,, pb:, okay. and lou pizza is going to second that.. Is there any discussion to the motion.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and then I'm going to restate the motion. As the motion of the board.

B

harmon zuckerman, pb: planning board moves to amend the north boulder sub community plan and bsp by adoption of a refined, st. kitts, streetscape plan.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: for north broadway in the commercial area to reflect the direction recommended in the public process for the north folder. sorry. north broadway reconstruction, project. I'll, take a roll call vote. John crystal.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: hi inside I.

H

Lisasmith pb: hi.

B

Peter vitale pb: ellie hi., lupita d, montoya, pb:, julia. hi., sarah silver pb:, there silver, I harmon zuckerman, pb: and I will vote is so. The motion has been approved. Unanimously.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: so,.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: we're gonna, move on to, and congratulations to garrett and to jane.. Thank you for that excellent work.. We appreciate it. and thanks for sticking around so late. and of course, phil,. Thank you for sticking around. and for all staff for being here. as late as it is.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, but we got to get this done tonight to be on schedule.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:. This next matter is not a public hearing.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:: it's an update and board input on the ceo south project.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and I've been in communication with the city attorney's office about this, and it was a very difficult analysis because the conflict rules in our code.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: leave a lot of different stones to turn over, and that the fact is that I have an employment relationship.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, while it may not be an employee type relationship under some definitions,, you know,, I'm at most a contractor., I teach a to credit class and I would love to be part of this.. I feel.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: very much a part of this having helped with the guiding principles for see yourself during the comprehensive plan update for the 2015 comp plan, update that we pass in 2017.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, but I'm going to recuse based on the fact that that I do teach a class at see you- and I don't want there to be any.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: conflicts of interest that can't be managed, or that appear to be improper.. So I'm going to leave. and I'm going to appoint david and signed to be the chair.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: of the planning board for the rest of this meeting,. I understand that I may not be the only one who needs to recuse so david,, I'm going to just hand it over to you and you can ask for sorry cindy's raising your hand.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: cindy.

A

Cindy spence: want it asks if we could,. If I could ask something of the board before you before,, some of you, leave.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: okay,, so.

A

Cindy spence: charles, if,, if I may interject, really quickly here.. I forgot to put something on the agenda.

A

Cindy spence: a matter on the agenda.- and this is just take two minutes of your time,, but it doesn't affect the whole board.

A

Cindy spence:, because I don't plan on coming back.

A

Cindy spence: after you recuse yourself.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: no,, I'm not., I'm going to take off. cindy spence:. I didn't think so.

A

Cindy spence:, I forgot to put something on the agenda,, my fault.

A

Cindy spence: is the 220 21 playing board recruitment, application.

A

Cindy spence: and the only reason I bring it up now is: I have to have this back before we meet again.

A

Cindy spence:, so I am proposing that I send it out to you. The application.

A

Cindy spence:, you guys review it for the. If you like the questions, because we did review it last year.

A

Cindy spence:, if you like the questions, I'm also going to send you out the timeline.

A

Cindy spence: things are moving a little bit sooner this year because of our situation with the pandemic at all., so they're doing board recruitment, a little bit earlier this year, and I have so recruitment is going to start december. 17.

A

Cindy spence:, and so I need to have these applications okayed and any.

A

Cindy spence: edits or anything you feel you might need back to me no later than november 13. So my apologies for the shortness, but it shouldn't take you very long to just look it over.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder, : yes,, it's the questions and if you could just email, any comments you have directly back to cindy and that back to them,, you know, boulder planning, board email.

K

That would be helpful. harmon, zuckerman,, pb:, okay, well,, that's fine with me. and I don't think you'll need a vote on that.. It's just a matter from the planning director.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and just to weigh in real quickly on the next meeting since I won't be around for our group and calendar check. we're going to go over the annual letter to city council. I promised the board that I would rephrase the questions and get them to you,, which I will do.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: and then david can go over what the timeline is for returning.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: returning are written responses to those questions.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb: for the next meeting that we hold. okay.

A

Cindy spence: yeah. okay,, that's great. and then, yeah, I'll get this email out to you as soon as we start talking about su south and.

A

Cindy spence: and I have a deadline on here., so my fault., I didn't get this on the agenda or.

B

Harmon zuckerman, pb:, not a big deal, cindy.. Thank you very much for everything you do. and I'm going to hand the gavel over to my friend david and I'm gonna leave the meeting and wish you all a good night.. Thank you very much..

M

David ensign: thanks,, herman david ensign:, alright, well,. This is a.

M

David ensign: oh,, david ensign:, you had something you had to say.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: yes.. I also have to recuse myself.

N

lupita d, montoya pb:. I was hoping that I will do it before our illustrious chair left,, but I think I have to do it now. so for similar reasons.. I do have an affiliation with the university, and I discussed this with a lot. so we're.. This is the agreement not make.

N

Lupita d montoya pb: thank you, everyone. and I'm glad we were able to do that for you,, cindy and.

N

Lupita d, montoya pb:, good, night,, everyone, and I'll see you next time, stay safe and healthy.

M

David ensign: thank you., david ensign: okay.. Does anyone else have any, anything that they need to disclose or any.

M

David ensign: anything that we should do right at the beginning.

D

Lisasmith pb:. I also need to recuse myself., I'm currently under a contract position and paid by see you,, which, based on advice from hello,, I need to recuse so that there's no appearance or actual misconduct.

M

David ensign: okay, well,, we'll miss you. thank you. and that will leave four of us,. I guess,, which is just barely the amount we need. Thankfully, civil, see in two weeks.

M

David ensign:, alright, well,- this is a matter., so you do, you will not have a public comment will have a staff presentation.. Thank you for being here, phil.

M

David ensign: um,, I did want to take just a minute or two before we to hear from your presentation. phil, because sarah, you had sent me a recommendation on.

M

David ensign: how we might be able to deliberate efficiently- and I think it would make sense to go ahead and talk about that before the presentation, so that people can think about that before we deliberate. so, um,. Would you like that real quickly, and then I'll.

M

David ensign: show you what I was thinking of doing.

G

Sarah silver pb: okay, great., thank you for giving me the opportunity and it seems,. This is a very complex document that we've been asked to look at and give some feedback on.

G

Sarah silver pb: and it struck me that it might be valuable to sort of break our feedback into two parts.. The first would be sort of broad themes that we are concerned about or that we want to.

G

Sarah silver pb: share and the second would be getting into the weeds and going through that matrix at the end of the end of the document.

G

Sarah silver pb:. I really appreciate film trying to make this something we could.

G

Sarah silver pb: work our way through,, but it really is pretty complex.

M

David ensign: okay. um, yeah,. I really appreciate that recommendation. um,. So when I.

M

David ensign: looked at this I thought. Maybe what we'll do is do key issue. One first,, which is.

M

David ensign:, the briefing book related and break it down into two round the very first of all what I was thinking as I could just call on each person to give their broad things.

M

David ensign: and I'll just go in order that I see you on the screen will just be prepared to talk broad themes.

M

David ensign:, then we'll just kind of open it up to the hand, raising discussion on any detailed things. People would like to discuss, and all of that is in the briefing book.

M

David ensign: and then for qc two,. I think we can probably just do hand raising for that,, since that's public outreach related. does that make sense.

G

Sarah silver pb: and I'll just a little feedback., I think for phil and the rest and his team to challenges we have with getting through all this material and understanding, it.

G

Sarah silver pb: could be informative as he thinks about the public engagement, process.

M

Cool. david ensign: okay,, so with that I'm phil, go ahead and take it away.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): sure,. I have a handful of slides that I could go through that just sort of goes through what what we've been thinking about, as we've been developing those over the past few weeks,. If that sounds., okay. and I'll try to be concise.. Let me just share this.

AA

Phil kleisler, (cob): and phil kleisler (cob): is that working for everybody.

X

Sarah silver pb:, not yet., jean gatza, staff, moderator (she/her):, okay,, typically with the zoom., it's like it's a to click, screen.

G

Sarah silver pb: very good., perfect. okay,, hopefully that works.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, and how is that.

M

David ensign: that looks great to me.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): perfect., okay,, thanks., phil, kleisler (cob):, so thank you for your time. phil chrysler with the planning and development services.. This is just a quick check in with planning board on some next steps for the cu south annexation project.. This is input that will be shared with council during a.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): an upcoming discussion. That's going to be pretty similar to this. on november 17, so we've often times we've come to the board.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): for these kinds of items so that you can provide ideas and input that will benefit councils, discussion. and so in this case, you're. Actually just getting like the preview of what council, will get on november. 17 will have tomorrow to make some tweaks to this, to based on the comments.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, if we, if at all, possible. again, the two questions we have are really about the briefing book. That's attachment, be in the in the proposed strategy for community engagement, attachment a.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):. This is just the anticipated review process for the annexation.. We've gone through the first row and completed that gray box around flood mitigation, options.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, in with council's decision on the flood mitigation concept in june of this year. and you'll recall that counts. That planning board also weighed in the month prior to that, in may and.

M

David ensign:, during that slide, phil, or other people seeing it.

M

John gerstle pb: didn't I'm not seeing any progression and slides. yeah.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : and it looks like you're on the notes mode to not quite sure. no. all right.

K

Phil kleisler (cob): um, how about this., if I can just stay on this,, if it's not working., is that ok for you. yep,, perfect. okay,, so we're here at the planning board input at this point.

AA

Phil, kleisler, (cob): and and and and council input on really how to engage the community on the on the university's annexation, proposal.

AA

And that would be.

L

John gerstle pb: can, can we interrupt or john gerstle pb: where's horn.

L

john gerstle pb: okay. yeah.. Can you give an update on what happened,, what's the latest, with the advisory group on the on the flood mitigation options that that we were going to get some some response to for a couple questions on this.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, so we have our executive team meeting tomorrow. and that's one of the topics that we're going to discuss the idea being that joe, the utilities director joe tabby, who he is going to offer.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): was planning to offer the planning board an opportunity to come and brief the board on that, on that process,. But.

L

John gerstle pb: well,, so it's still coming.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): um,, but for the annexation piece, where we're sort of heading into that community engagement push and then all of that will be summarized the council in 2021 for direction on essentially how to proceed.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): with the annexation through the typical public hearings that the board is used to seeing.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): on to get into the two documents that were included in your packet. first is the briefing book.. So the university submitted a new round of comments on october 5.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): through the term sheet. we've been using for the annexation, and I, we've heard from community members and staff that it's it's getting to be quite the document. it's kind of hard to get through and to tell kind of.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): what's,, what's current, what's on the table., and so we set out to do this document that briefing book and an attempt to.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): kind of compile all the relevant information in a transparent and concise and readable manner., and so that was the intent there where we would expect it to be updated throughout the process. As we know, more. and that's different things develop.

AA

Phil kleisler, (cob): and there's really three main parts to this. One would be that color coded table.. It has an indication of what's the actual term sheet.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): number that you can reference in the term sheet document the topic summary and then whether or not staff is aligned on that particular topic..

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, as well as a breakdown of each of those in terms of policy guidance proposal and whether or not staff is aligned.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, and we also at the end of each of those sections, are we are starting to do some diagrams of the site to, as you know,, the university did not does not have a site plan.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): for the site., and so if we can at least start putting down di bubble, diagram or something,, showing what's the anticipated and were on the site that might help with our communication. Efforts.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): with this,. This would have some animations to it,, but I'd like to just maybe pause for a second and it's many hours ago. Now,, but.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):. I wanted to say that I appreciated the comments made that public comment around having a clear and an enforceable annexation agreement., and I think that's something that we're all working towards.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): the thing that I'd like to share with the planning board, and maybe you can let us know if if this is a good way to describe, it is just kind of the timeline of where we are in this process.

AA

Phil kleisler, (cob): and so taking a step back,. The guiding principles were adopted.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): really looked at in 2016 2017, and that was really the policy vision for the site. and so, for example, will protect views and contribute positively to the character of the city's gateway.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):. It's then, when the annexation agreement was submitted, that we started working in the term sheet kind of the back and forth. and that's where.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):. We started talking about how to translate the guiding principles into annexation terms,, but those are still just ideas that we're introducing and so, for example, staff proposed.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): that we measure height in accordance with the city's charter limit and we establish a height ceiling.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, and so what were the point we're at now after going through that process for the last year,? Is we developed this briefing book to start.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): asking the communities. it's so far.. It's only been staff from the sea from cu, boulder and staff from the city.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): discussing these items and so now's the point where we have some ideas on the table. and we'd like to know what the, what the community's take is on. It.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, and once we know that we're sort of heading in the right direction with those items, we would start flushing it out a bit more. and that's when david year gets the honor of drafting the specific terms of the annexation agreement for.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): the public hearing before the planning board and so on. Engagement. we're looking to share foundational materials, the briefing book the application materials be available for questions.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):. We want to hear interest, concerns and ideas about the application and then compile all that information for for the planning, board and counsel on deliberations. Next, year.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, so we're still as staff kind of working through just how to do engagement about this.. It's pretty complex and.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): we're working through it., still,, and so any input you have would certainly be useful,. But.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, where we're leaning right now with some of these community conversations,, would be to focus on the level of alignment. and so the green being we're aligned in the yellow being or mostly aligned,, or we need to flush out some details.

AA

Phil kleisler, (cob): and doing kind of a pulse check with the community about. Are we heading in the right direction.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): the red topics, where we're not in a line of staff that will be maybe a bit more nuanced of under what conditions could something be acceptable. we're trying to avoid the yes, no answers and trying to dig a little bit deeper with some of these questions.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, and what we're envisioning for the engagement in terms of kind of tactics would be in two parts.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): part one would be that are we heading in the right, direction. and so that's,? You know, immediately city council on november 17 and we'd be launching a beaver builder questionnaire in december,. Shortly after that, council meeting.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): will be hosting a community briefing kind of a one on one, and how to connect to the project as well as.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): the process committee meeting asked for a brainstorming session., so we're gonna we're we're toying around with the idea and experimenting with a world cafe on zoom and so having different breakout rooms and so on.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): having some office hours. That folks will be able to sign up for for more smaller group discussion and then reaching out the neighborhoods.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, where we're going to host a meeting with the martin acres, neighborhood association and in early december.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): and then all of that stuff, probably in mid january, would wrap up. and we put a part one report out there about what we've heard.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): also in mid january,. That's when we're the university's expecting the transportation study to be returned.

AA

Phil kleisler, (cob): or ready, they'll need to be some analysis and review from our transportation staff,, but we would envision there being a second part to this engagement. Push.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): that we need to really focus on the transportation impacts,, as well as any remaining key issues. And so that concludes my my presentation, I'll go ahead and stop sharing the screen now and happy to.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): answer questions and take notes and share your input with council.- we really appreciate your time this evening.

M

David ensign: great., thank you, so much,, phil. and I'll just go ahead and follow the tradition of doing questions first.. So.

M

David ensign: and then we'll, we'll do the deliberation process that we talked about before.. So does anybody have any questions they'd like to clear up with phil before we go in and.

M

David ensign:, this is a conversation., so we don't have to do questions now.. We can also have a conversation when we start talking about the key issues as well., but there anything that anybody wanted to ask to start out.

W

David ensign: here.

G

Sarah silver pb:, so just a couple of little things, um,, the in the doc. In the document you shared with us., there was a notation that.

G

Sarah silver pb: see,, you would be providing answers to a series of issues in a document to be delivered november, one, and.

G

Sarah silver pb: we., I don't know whether they did,, but it wasn't included. It wasn't obviously included in the document you shared with us, and I just didn't know if there was.

G

Sarah silver pb: there,, whether you'd already incorporated that updated information or whether you did not get that material or just, just a little clarification, there.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, they are still working on it.. I had a call. I called them to ask that kind of that question earlier. Today. They are working on it and they are also looking at some other public comments like the document.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, the planning board received earlier today,, made some good points that they want to think through, and to try to be responsive to some of the points made in that letter.. We're expecting.

AA

Phil kleisler, (cob): or they're expecting to possibly have something ready by the council meeting., and so when it does come to us,, we can. we'd be happy to share it with planning board to as a follow up, okay,. That.

G

Sarah silver pb:, it was just,, it was, it sort of a thing.. It was like a hanging chad out there. yeah.

M

David ensign:, and actually I have a related question. If we have seen the term sheet,, have we seen pretty much everything. see you sent back to us on the fifth of october.. Everything is bare.. Everything is in those lines on the term sheet.. There was nothing else that came back to us,. Is that correct.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): yes, there may have been some minor changes to their to their map, but yeah. That's that's! That's it., okay.

M

David ensign:, any other questions.

L

John gerstle pb: john yeah.

L

John gerstle pb:, I understand that. see you doesn't, doesn't have any details about what they actually intended to do. Here.

L

John gerstle pb:, or at least not sufficient to to do more than a bubble diagram at best.. So how does the city intend to address.

L

John gerstle pb: all the uncertainties associated with that.. I understand the term sheet than the you know: the matrix., the matrix scenes,. I should say,. You have.

L

John gerstle pb: dealing with specific issues,, but I fail to understand how the city intends to define this efficiently to know what its obligations might be versus the universities in on a number of these issues.

L

John gerstle pb: is there,. Is there a big picture approach that I'm not yet seen on this.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): no,. I think that's been that the challenge of not having a site specific development plan proposed for this.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): property, and so our approach up to this point has been the focus really on performance standards and impacts off site and such as building height limits, neighborhood compatibility, transportation, impacts.. I see you're you're about to mention something but saw.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): a pause, on. okay.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, but,, um,, yes. and so we've been looking at. We've asked for more specific design standards for for the site, design and building designs,, but we're not expecting.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): find grained. Details were probably expecting something to where it would be included in the annexation agreement, and it would be incorporated into the overall design guidelines, when they.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): in the future, when they're developing the site,, but.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): yeah,. I don't know if I'm getting there. okay.

L

John gerstle pb: well, what I'm,? What I'm thinking about are.

L

John gerstle pb: a variety of of the agreement of necessary agreements regarding who might be responsible for what. for example,, I'm thinking of, for example, transportation options between seeing the south and the mainstream campus.

L

John gerstle pb: that you know we've we've really heard very vague comments about that so far, and I don't expect that there will be more than that, until there's some more knowledge about what might actually happen at that tonight.

L

John gerstle pb:, but at the same time, one can talk about the obligations of each party with respect to paying for various aspects and considering various options.

L

John gerstle pb:, if there's going to be a bus line, running back and forth,, who gets to use it and who gets paid for., I mean, you're. You know you, you know all of these issues. also,, but it's very unclear to me how that will be addressed. Here.

L

John gerstle pb: and that's just one example. I'm I mean.

L

I picked that up. yeah.

G

Sarah silver pb: can, I add something to that to john's question.. So one of the points that really stuck with me was this sense of urgency at getting the annexation agreement.

G

Sarah silver pb:, when it., I think it's several years down the road before this, before., see you,, is going to be doing their own master, their next master plan., and so there just seemed like this disconnect between.

G

Sarah silver pb:, not now that we have the flood mitigation.

G

Sarah silver pb: plan or or agreement that we know we want.

G

Sarah silver pb:, I think it seems like we have a lot of time. There should be a lot of time for that to move forward.

G

Sarah silver pb: and for a sarah silver pb: discussion between the city in the university that can be more fine grained as the university moves closer to its master plan. and I feel like what john's pointing out is that we're pushing,, pushing,, pushing, pushing,.

G

Sarah silver pb: for reasons that are unclear on.

G

Sarah silver pb: on the sarah silver pb: annexation when see us not even gonna, be able to do a site plan for several years at least., and I guess I don't really quite understand where the,, where the pressure is coming. From.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, I can,, I can speak to,, I think, where different parties stand. and so from the city staff perspective,. We will schedule the annexation hearing when they we have an agreement in place and- and we have the studies that we need and the information that we would need.

AA

Phil kleisler, (cob): and, and that's that would be our position.. The university has requested that.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): at that public hearings be scheduled sometime in the mid part of 2021.. So that's the university's request.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, and then there is the flood engineering., and so the the land necessary for the flood mitigation project only becomes available.. If we annex the entire site per the university.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): universities, application that would happen. I'd have to go. Look at the actual schedule. at what point,. They would need the actual rights to use the land for their permitting process,, but that would probably be before., see you, and have a master plan, plan put into place.

G

Sarah silver pb:, so can I just ask a clarifying.. I want to make sure I'm understanding. The flood mitigation project cannot be.

G

Sarah silver pb: implemented sarah silver pb:. If the land is not annexed or see, you says they won't allow the mitigation plan to be implemented. Intel the annexation happens.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): the land on see us property only becomes available.. If we annex the entire site, her their application.

AB

Peter vitale pb: on this right, now.

M

David ensign:, what I'm hearing is that it would be next to impossible to get all the permitting and everything done if we didn't have that land.

H

David ensign: yeah, but transferred.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, yes,, there, there,, there's a demarcation point where they. yeah, exactly. follow up with any specific dates.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, the 2013 floods is what is the reason for the.

AB

Sarah silver pb: arrow, peter,, I understand that., but I think there's other stuff.. I think there's other stuff that is at play. Here.

G

Sarah silver pb: and what I'm trying to just clarify is: is it that see you won't? Let us use that land and won't let the city. use the land to build the the flood mitigation,, or is it that literally, we cannot access that land.

G

Sarah silver pb: intel, there's been an annexation.. I mean it's,, I'm just trying to understand where the sort of.

H

Sarah silver pb: the.: these are things that.

G

Sarah silver pb:, these two things have been hooked: together., I'm trying to understand,. Actually they are hooked together from a.

G

Sarah silver pb: book for I'm.

G

Sarah silver pb: pumped for.

G

Sarah silver pb: is there a way to unhook them is.

AB

Peter vitale pb: a while god or a love peter vitale, pb: of humanity of man. That's driving, it.

AB

phil, kleisler, (cob): oh,, the latter. peter vitale pb:. Is our institution, that's creating the the linkage.. Can we sever that link,, which is what you're trying to,? Is that what you're trying to get out.

G

Sarah silver pb: well,- it just seems to me that the community.

G

Sarah silver pb:, the city, cares very much about.

G

Sarah silver pb: addressing the flooding issue. and we've now got an agreement on what the mitigation plan has to respond to rate.

G

Sarah silver pb:, the city, also cares very much about the university, being able to.

G

Sarah silver pb: expand and build housing and all that stuff.. But that can happen. There is not an earth. there's, not the same kind of potential urgency to that.. So that's why I'm just trying to understand if they can be untethered from each other in some way.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):. That was a theme in the public comments that we've gotten throughout the last year of decoupling. The annexation from the flood mitigation projects or.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): just accessing a portion of the site. we need for that project and then annexing the rest down the road when they have a site. Plan.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):. The response that we've received from the universities is that's not possible, and that, due to a fiduciary responsibility to the state and so on, that they are not.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): interested in accessing a portion of the site,, only the whole thing., and once we annex the entire site, that's when the city, the land becomes available for flood mitigation.. So that's that is the response from the university.

M

David ensign:, I'm hoping that that will allow us to move on and that we can.

M

David ensign:, I mean,. We can certainly put a placeholder on that and realize that there's interested in whether that could happen,. But I know that that that's been under, under.

M

David ensign: examination, certainly david ensign:, any other questions before we go into big themes and key issues.

M

David ensign:, all right, well,.

M

David ensign:, I guess,, then why don't we go ahead and then start a discussion with question number one.: does the board have input on the draft annexation briefing book,, which was actually, um I think, attachment be in our package? So.

M

David ensign: I'll go ahead and sir,. Would you like to go first. oh.

G

Sarah silver pb: yes, thank you.. I actually have a number of big themes.

G

Sarah silver pb: first is one I've already mentioned,, which is this, I think of it as decoupling,. But it was really more of a question of why this rush on the annexation when just from a city perspective, the focus really needs to be on flood planning and permitting.

G

Sarah silver pb:, the second a broad issue, is some concerns.. I had in the brief in the elements of the matrix.

G

Sarah silver pb: that suggested a less than full commitment to the environmental elements of the guiding principles and a real interest in trying to maximize conveyance to the city of the open space. Other land.

G

Sarah silver pb: and it would be,, I think it would.

G

Sarah silver pb: uh,, you know those objectives are protect open space opportunities for ecological restoration and improvement,, protect and restore wildlife, and I really agree with your efforts to.

G

Sarah silver pb: with the staff efforts to live up to the recommendation from the open space board to convey all hundred 19 acres of that land to the city.

G

Sarah silver pb:- and I think a broad issue- is the issue of accountability,, which sort of gets to what some of what I think john, was referencing and his,. His questions, which have to do with.

G

Sarah silver pb:, you know the city's made this offer., I'm sorry. see you made an offer to allow the city to formally review and provide camp comments on the campus master plan and the ceo master, the sea, south master plan,, but that's a pretty vague.

G

Sarah silver pb: wording and that could be we give feedback and they say,. Thank you very much and go do what they want to do.

G

Sarah silver pb: and I think it's really essential for the city to try to figure out, and I know you're doing this, but my opportunity to raise themes to identify the tools necessary to hold you accountable.

G

Sarah silver pb: um,. I think the fourth theme for me is what happens if see you sells the land.

G

Sarah silver pb:, instead of developing it themselves.- and I said this in our last meeting- about see you south,, which is. I would really hope that.

G

Sarah silver, pb: and personally,. I would expect that if the land is a senior south sells the land that the purchaser has to go through a brand new review process, an actual review process, unless unless they are also a state entity that they would have to be held accountable to our processes, um,.

G

Sarah silver pb: there's no financial analysis, and this is the fifth issue: there's no financial analysis,, at least in the briefing book.

G

Sarah silver pb: who's responsible for what and how much it's gonna cost and how much it's going to cost the city and who's going to end up paying for all of it., and I was really sort of taken. Aback.

G

Sarah silver pb: by what in my mind, I read his see kind of wanting to have its cake and eat it too, and have the city pay for an awful lot of things. That might not necessarily be the city's responsibility.

G

Sarah silver pb: and then sarah silver pb:- and this is sort of a subset of that which is this. This annexation.

G

Sarah silver pb: is kind of being treated differently than other annexation,, in the sense that.

G

Sarah silver pb:, we are being asked to pay for a lot of the costs of annexation. and, as I understand it, and any other private property annexation.

G

Sarah silver pb:, the property owner pays. most of those costs, and I really would hope that we could find ways to ensure that this annexation is treated that same way.. So those are my broad themes.

M

David ensign: thank you,, sarah. david ensign:, who wants to go next. john,. Would you like to go next.

L

John gerstle pb: well,, I'm happy to john gerstle pb: thank you,. Sarah has hidden number of the big issues,, which is what we're focused on now.

L

John gerstle pb:, I think that john gerstle pb: that it's very unclear in general,, not just the costs that are to be assigned to various parties for various purposes,, but also the, the general obligations and commitments that are expected of each party to this.. So it's it.. This is an even more general.

L

John gerstle pb: aspect, and then what sarah has described. I think I think phil that the way you're laying this out and trying to identify issues and where there's agreement among the parties and.

L

John gerstle pb: and where there may be disagreement or issues that need to be further discussed, is actually then it's a very good way of presenting that information,. But I think.

L

John gerstle pb: again,, the john gerstle pb: to me: there's a need to take a step back and talk about these. These major issues before we get wrapped up in in the details. Of, you know,.

L

John gerstle pb: some of the issues that are really will follow. once we have the conceptual aspect started out and among these conceptual aspects,, I'm thinking are.

L

John gerstle pb: aspects of of things that need to be built outside of this project area, for the project to succeed, and I named transportation for one, but of course, the abilities and and other things, fire and police protection and so on..

L

John gerstle pb:, all of these are are issues that we can't expect.

L

John gerstle pb:, if this land were to be sold to some other party, that that it would be obvious how they would be dealt with. and that's why it's so important to make be very concrete about that at this stage as part of the annexation documents.

L

John gerstle pb: anyway,, I'm going to start repeating myself if I don't shut up. but,, but that's a general concern that I have.

M

David ensign: thank you,, john and,, peter.

AB

Peter vitale pb:! So if the,, if we're being asked about the booklet and how to how it's composed.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, I agree with peter vitale pb: what john said, and I think sarah said it as well. but phil. I like how its laid out with.

AB

Peter vitale pb:: here's where we're in alignment., here's where we need some work. and that goes to sarah is list which.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, without even.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, you know, peter vitale, pb:. The fact that these are questions that exist. and so how are,? How can we call these out a little more clearly in this booklet, so that the people who are skeptical of this process because it's been a.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, it's been a complicated process that I think has brought out a lot of.

AB

Peter vitale pb: a lot of armchair experts on a lot of topics and we're living in a world of truths and untrue and alternative facts. Right now- and I don't want this to be a victim of that.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, so let's shine a light on all those and let's use this booklet as a way of saying. Here's where here. here are the topics that we.

AB

Peter vitale pb: are addressing and bake that into this, without even passing judgment on on what they are, how they are now, let's pick one that cost issue.

AB

Peter vitale pb: sure what parts of that are true or false,. What parts are public perception,? What parts are.

AB

Peter vitale pb: people who don't want to say developed in it and we'll there'll, be everything said,. Why shouldn't be. and the folks who want the site developed for various reasons,? Who will.

AB

Peter vitale pb: be selective about their facts., so I would you call this out as a unique annexation in the booklet,. I would go even further and say you say why., but then I would use that as an as an opening.

AB

Peter vitale pb: to say then, here are some of the issues and, you know,. Here's where we are.. I don't want to give it like the snopes test of this.. Is this an issue or not.? Is this true,? Where are we.

AB

Peter vitale pb: and then I think people,- and this goes to the second question about- can you mean community engagement,, then? I think people will dig into this more because it is a big.

AB

Peter vitale pb: topic and a big book and people are not going to dig in and you're going to get to get a bike vocal minority on both sides,, who are going to then be fighting over at,. You know,.

AB

Peter vitale pb: issues,, as opposed to the community, really feeling like this, is something for them.. I think the greatest loss would be.

AB

Peter vitale pb: the community talking about this for decades as all that, you, know, and they'll, have a version of it and that neither will probably be right about how this came to be. Ultimately, because there's going to tune out.

AB

Peter vitale pb: so take everything that, for example, sarah's.

AB

Peter vitale pb: big points, killer. well,, said sarah and.

AB

Peter vitale pb:: let's get them out there shine light on.

M

David ensign: great. yes, I'm. thank you,, peter., well, and I'll just say that a lot of the things that have been said I resonate with as well.. This is it's very hard to.

M

David ensign:, the briefing book is, is fantastic because it does move us into a more organized way to present this problem space,, but we are,. It is clear that we're still in.

M

David ensign: transition from I think sarah use the term in the weeds to this level,, but can be metabolized by the public.

M

David ensign:, so I the first time I read through it. and actually,. I have to admit,. It was during the time where I was kind of despondent over the election, I guess,, but I was like,, I'm pretty.. It was pretty hard for me to keep track of all the thoughts. I was having as I was going through, because I kept.

M

David ensign: seeing themes and then I'd see him later. and maybe with a little extra added and then I'd see him later on. and with a little more added.

M

David ensign:, so anything that can be done to kind of consolidate the themes in a way that helps you to think about them. All kind of together would be very useful. some examples. I have our.

M

David ensign:, if we go to.

M

David ensign: page.

M

david ensign:, 19, david ensign:. There are all the topics summarize from the term sheet.

M

David ensign: that table gets repeated again later in the document.. I wonder if that could be just in there once,, because I get, you know,. When I saw it again. I was like,. Oh, did I already see this., and so I you know when I see things repeated. That worries me a little bit.

M

David ensign:, another thing that I saw are some maps that really answered some of my questions but were referenced. One of them on.

M

David ensign: page, and I know we're doing themes. but this,, I'm just using pages to kind of demonstrate this as a theme.

M

David ensign: page 111, there's this map of access points,, but we also have this kind of undercurrent of, well,. There's this whole transportation study. That's going to reveal all the answers to a lot of.

M

Sarah silver pb: translating david ensign:, we don't yet have those so.

M

David ensign:, if there were a place in the document that kind of highlighted that yes, we know, we don't have all the answers to the transportation, however.

M

David ensign:, the thing that's going to be on people's mind.. Are we going to have this big access point at highway? 93.

M

David ensign:, just south of.

M

David ensign: greenbrier in chambers., and what will that be,? Will it be for emergency vehicles and buses, or will it be for everybody.? I mean, there's, there's a lot of circulation issues that.

M

David ensign: that people are going to be thinking about because it affects the city at large.. So I would love to see the maps like this. the show possum bit possible secondary access and stuff.

M

David ensign: described in a little bit more central place and kind of put in reference, because by the time you get to this you're going oh haha., there are these.

M

David ensign: access points., but what does that mean,? You know, so, um,. Anything we can do to kind of organize the way people think about that. um,. Another example was the map a few pages later. That shows a ha on page.

M

David ensign: 48 of the document, we suddenly see a map of where the 37 or the 36 acres versus the 44 acres of going, they're, going to be given to us actually.

M

David ensign: might be, which is kind of interesting, because we've talked about those acres a lot and now suddenly we we see where they might be in. oh,. It's like.

M

David ensign:, I see., the idea is the 44 acres are probably kind of around that existing levy, and then, if the city bought some additional stuff, they would be taking down the levy, blah, blah, blah.. So just some of that could probably be.

M

David ensign:, the story can be told in a way that would help people understand it a little bit more.

M

David ensign:, let's see.

M

David ensign:, because you know people. yeah, people are going to be pretty overwhelmed and I don't. I don't want people to feel like because it's overwhelming.

M

David ensign:, it they they're, they're, going to be surprised that something somehow something's been kept from them.. So.

M

David ensign:, so it is.. So if we don't know something right now. I think it's perfectly fine to say we don't know the details of this yet and and kind of make that clear, so that people don't get too.

M

David ensign: worried about some of those things right now.. I know it's hard because we are in a time where we're working towards.

M

David ensign: really solid language for this annexation agreement and we don't have that yet.. So I that and so anybody., so anything you can do. like. I said,, I think they've done a great job,, but anything you can do to make that story just a little bit. Easier.

M

David ensign: and finally, I'll just kind of echo.. We hear a lot about enforceability. and the guiding principles I see all throughout here.. You've done a fantastic job of taking the guiding principles and tracking them through and getting them into all this,. These things in the.

M

David ensign: in the sheet.

M

David ensign:, but david ensign:, but I don't think people have an example of what enforceability might look like if we don't have a site. Plan.

M

David ensign:, and so if there could be some way to convey to the public, how we think., because it may not be possible to show them enforceability language right, now,, but how we think enforceable building language might look,. Certainly with.

M

David ensign: very concrete things like height limits and not building in the 500 year, flood plain., all those things are very clear,, but then people wonder, will we say up to 1100 residential.

M

David ensign: is the development profile.. Can it be.

M

David ensign: specified in a more in a more enforceable way.

M

David ensign:, I know it's it's it's complicated,, but if we have ideas around that., I'm sure the public would love to hear it.

M

David ensign:, because david ensign:, we know that 1100 residential units are going to pop up all at once.. So if they've, if they've only put 300 and.

M

David ensign:, are they out of compliance for eight years or something. so, you know,. It's just,, it's very hard to figure for the public to understand,, just because it's put in as an aspiration.

M

David ensign:, how that can be how there can be parameters around it that might actually give the city some leverage to say, hey, you're, not living up to the sanitation agreement. If something really doesn't go, the way we expect tho.

M

David ensign:, those are my thoughts to start with.

M

David ensign:, so those are high level things we want to go forward from that on the briefing book to you.

G

Sarah silver pb:- I actually just have a question and david something you out. you raise that. I wanted a question, literally about the format of the briefing book. The.

G

Sarah silver pb:, the long explanations of specific.

G

Sarah silver pb: items of specific I'm one of a specific sheet topic.

G

Sarah silver pb: that you know are written out as text.

G

Sarah silver pb:- I just not sure I'd like to help understand why some of them are pulled out and explained more deeply and some are not.. Is it wasn't clear to me.

G

Sarah silver pb:: what was the driving.? What was the decision process or the criteria for what got in depth explanations and what we're left just in the matrix, and it might be helpful in your next iteration to make that clear, clearer to a reader.

G

Sarah silver pb:, or even make it clear to us right, now.

G

Phil kleisler (cob): yeah,, I think., but I started with, was doing the tables and then just try to roll up that into a matrix into like the color coded thing.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):. I think I just used personal judgment and what needed more detail and what what didn't., and so maybe we can take another look and see where the sweet spot might be if, if some of them need more detail or or others don't.

G

Sarah silver pb: right. and maybe it's just expand, and I don't have an I personally- don't have an opinion about which ones you chose and which one you didn't,, but I'm just make explaining why there are some that are pulled out and some that are not was just helpful. Clarifying clarification.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): yeah,. There are other things that I did not include of like paying utility fees, and things like that that I just maybe didn't think people would be as interested in,. But.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, that's something that maybe we'll, we'll take another look at too.

M

David ensign: yeah. on that note, there is the public safety facility that see you agreed to.

M

David ensign: it. and if that's a city facility., does that provide fire protection services to the campus.

M

Phil kleisler (cob): fire protection to the campus right, now. yeah.

M

David ensign: yeah,, so that, um, actually,, it seems like it would be good to have a you know. If the csu is going to pay for that service, you know, for example, that would,, you know,. I mean, yes, they're, providing the.

M

David ensign: space for that building that facility., but if the city is going to manage it.

M

That would be interesting.

M

David ensign: other ideas. people want to live.. We can just throw it out there for more ways that this can use to drive us forward.

M

Sarah silver pb:: this is super. You know what one.

G

Sarah silver pb: one way to think about.. I look,. I think it's really. I don't know how you do this every day: fell., it's awesome., but one one way, one way to think about it would be.

G

Sarah silver pb: under the rubric of the guiding principles and to separate out the the elements of the term sheet.

G

Sarah silver pb: by those guiding principles that may not be the that, may not be the most effective way., but it will be the start.. It could be the starting point for a fair number of members of the public who are not.

G

Sarah silver pb:, you know already deeply engaged on this particular project.

G

Sarah silver pb: and again,, just a thought. peter vitale, pb:, hey useful enough.

AB

Peter vitale pb: I agree.. If you're talking about the.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, the key issues are listed with response like.

AB

Peter vitale pb: counter. You know, question response, question response the dates.

G

Sarah silver pb:- I was thinking more like so in when you look at the matrix at the end.

G

Sarah silver pb: sorry,, I'm going to have to, when you look at the matrix at the end.

G

Sarah silver pb: area. um,, it has, you know, city policies or council directions.

G

Peter vitale pb: yes,. I agree that that's what I was. that's what you're talking about. and I.

L

John gerstle pb:, which john gerstle pb:, which page are you talking.

AB

Peter vitale pb: about last, like 20 pages of the book.

G

Sarah silver pb:, oh yeah,, I'm actually at the very end of the whole document.

G

Sarah silver pb:, where there's the.

AB

Peter vitale pb: meat of the document., sarah silver pb: yeah,, the term sheet.

G

John gerstle pb:, it's like think it's the term sheet at some.

AB

Peter vitale pb: some food 79, now you're talking about. yeah.

AB

Peter vitale pb: well,, not peter vitale pb: people are getting get past, the first two,, but this is where a lot of the information is, I think,.

AB

Peter vitale pb: granted it's it's in the proceedings, 79 pages as well, but.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, I think people will get lost in that as well, be interesting to see this represented in a more visual way of.

AB

Peter vitale pb: like,, here's where we're close.. Here's where we're not you want to get some detail on where we're not. You should see the.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, you should see what's been going on., you should see how they ever we've asked. Something,. It's been responded in this way, we've asked for this, and then it's been responded in this way. Anyone who's been a part of a negotiation,, even if it's just with.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, you know their parents or their neighbor or their child will understand that it's,. You know,. I asked for this and you say that and then ask for this say: that, you know, and then you're like, okay, yeah,. We are not close on that.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, so maybe tell a story about the discussions, though.

AB

Peter vitale pb: yeah, or pull out the ones that are actually like someone's gonna say, hey,. Okay, on what are the high points? Where are the deal breakers? Here.

M

David ensign:, we'll go., isn't that what is intended to be happening up above and around page? You know 50 in the 50s,, where we have.

M

David ensign: different things from the term sheet brought out and summarized and.

M

David ensign: in tables., we've got, like, for example, open space can be a few topics: 11 and 12 or 2122. We, the intent, was to pull them up and to make them more metabolize. Double.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, then I would say, see page such and such. for a more detailed like a footnote of.

AB

Peter vitale pb: see page so and so at the end of the document.. If you want to see the exchange.

AB

Peter vitale pb: on this date, and then that date. and then this date.. So if a person cares about remove the existing levee system, turnkey top at 16 and they read this.

AB

Peter vitale pb: and then I can. okay., and then they can go directly to where that is. and the key items down below, and like page 79 201 and they see it,. Then now I think they have a pretty good working knowledge of of it.

G

Sarah silver pb: can, I just ask a question that has to do with the term sheet and maybe it'll help our conversation with peter as well. the highlighted elements of the of the actual term sheet, starting on page whatever this is 79 are the highlights. they're meant to.

G

Sarah silver pb: reference back to sarah silver pb:, a green means we're in agreement, yellow means we aren't, and red meat or red, yellow means we're in discussion and red means we're like, not in agreement at all, or are these highlights just.

G

Sarah silver pb: something unrelated to that.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): um,. It's not clear.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): and phil kleisler (cob):, I phil kleisler (cob):, I'm not sure. I know where we stand., and so I didn't necessarily question those colors that we can. We can make a note of that. Maybe.

G

Sarah silver pb: well,, I'm just thinking that, if the way, if the way you all are thinking about things right now are we're in agreement. we're in discussion, we are nowhere near in agreement,, and you have a color coded thing that color coded element should be should flow through the entire book, um,.

M

David ensign: yeah,, that's interesting.. We have the very high level table that has the color coded, and then we have this whole summary section where you.

M

David ensign: summarize key things, and that one really does organized by the guiding principles, right,. If you look at it, the chapter two proposals, starting on page 27,.

M

David ensign:, it has general topics: parker have another track: public trap, own space track transportation that max exactly the the the guiding principles.. So that was a great.. That was a great mapping right.

M

David ensign: so to peter's point,. Maybe it needs to be a little clearer that, as you read through chapter two proposal., you can find more detail in the terms sheet.

M

David ensign: yeah., david ensign:, maybe just, you know,, make that very clear up. Top., though maybe a user guide. You know that says, how to kind of correlate the gory details in the term sheet. With these higher level.

M

David ensign: summary.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, when you find your topic, that a member of the community, particularly likes for interested in or has time for one on one,, because they just pick up the book and if they pick one up,, they read it and then they can quickly dive to more detail. Because it's clear, like.

AB

Peter vitale pb: just very continued on page 12, peter vitale pb:. We all know how many people turn to page 12, but the ones who read the article and are interested to that point. well, so,, because it phil. it's amazing. How much information you put together? Here.! It's really great.

AB

Peter vitale pb: so kudos to to this- and I know the graphic design of this type of thing- is in its own right,, difficult.

G

Sarah silver pb: it all what it, feel it reads.

G

Sarah silver pb:, you have different ways of organizing information and I'm sure it reflects and they're all really really helpful.. And maybe this is just a question of.

G

Sarah silver pb: how those different ways of organizing information then get put together, um,.

G

Sarah silver pb:, because I wouldn't want to lose anything that's in here. um,. It was really helpful to read and.

G

Sarah silver pb:: it was rich, really rich information and and brought up a lot of questions that are.

G

Sarah silver pb: going to I imagine some in the public will also bring up and counsel will bring up and.

AB

Peter vitale pb: yeah,, so some people will care. What's it going to look like., others are going to care about the.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, how are the how's, the environment and the wetlands.? How would they be protected.? Other people will care about transportation, impacts, others, you're, going to care about who's, gonna pay for this.. Oh man here.. Here they go. again, everyone's just spending our money.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, what's you know, is ridiculous.

AB

peter vitale, pb: and everyone's gonna have their pet thing and maybe a way for the focus for you to for someone to dive, in, like, a choose your own adventure in the beginning, like this is how you want to use this book because you're not going to care about all these things.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, but people are passionate about a couple things. one, hopefully, and then the ability to follow that story through.

AB

Peter vitale pb: this book, and maybe they pick up another topic that they're interested in. or they see how it's nested together and holistic way because because it is,. But there are basic themes.

AB

Peter vitale pb: so, peter vitale pb:. Like sarah said it's not losing. What's here, it's it's, maybe just a tabulation or a way. To, like,. As david said, a user's guide in the beginning.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, like that a lot. that's,, that's a great idea.

M

David ensign: and I had a very specific thing people might like. I know we're jumping around a lot.. If you go to page 19 of the briefing book. there's a summary of key points.

M

David ensign: and I noticed, here's an opportunity because you in the open space track the 119 acres use, mentioned the convenience of 44 acres to the city.. I know as open space at no cost.

M

David ensign: are all of the 36 acres that are being conveyed for flood mitigation under the pk to a pk yo.. If so,, it might be consistent to put a bullet point at a bullet point under pku low that it says that the ads that can be answered, 36 acres,, because I think it's really.

M

David ensign: important david ensign: for the public to understand the total 80 acres, where that's coming from when when we have an opportunity to I'm just not absolutely sure., but I think all that 36 is in the pk yo area. yeah,. So that's that'd be a good thing to add there as an extra button.

AB

Peter vitale pb: pk, you owe you., I mean, it's like jibberish.

AB

David ensign: okay,, I know I peter vitale pb: go through this with the acronym comb and pull it out and just start thinking about your in ninth grade, and you have to read this because it's assigned to you and it will point, are you just going to give up when you don't understand the words so.

M

David ensign: my, my first employer with bell labs out of grad school and they invented the word acronym. so,.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, that's great.,.

M

David ensign:, I got it was amazing how how awful it was it first and then I just totally got used to it over the years.

AB

Peter vitale pb: consonants resonating.

G

Sarah silver pb: phil. did you want,? Do you want us.? Do you want us to share specific issue concerns, or did you really just want us to.

G

Sarah silver pb: talk about readability and format, that kind of stuff.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): right now, we're really focused on the latter leading into the council meeting. That said,.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, you know, the next time right now that we'd be planning to come back to. You would be after the community engagement process when we're.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, you know having the transportation conversation and so on, and so it might be worth thinking about how the planning board would like to plug in to the process to provide those types of that type of input. As well.

M

David ensign: yeah,, I think, that, you know,, since planning board, will make the recommendation to counsel on the annexation agreement that.

M

David ensign: there will need to be david, ensign: checkpoints leading up to that time so that we don't know obviously look at it all at once and and times were, planning board can react.

M

David ensign:, I think in today's meeting. it's good though.. If we see something that we know the public is going to have an issue with, and we have a recommendation for how staff can present that in a way that makes it more productive to talk about with the.

M

Peter vitale pb: public, that's david ensign:, totally helpful. right,, so like the enforcement issue, for example.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):. I might burn charles and david about any kind of issues with talking about content prior to the actual public hearing.. But if you see no.

AA

M

David ensign: yeah,, the tram., you know,, I mean, as a theme,, the transportation. One really sticks out to me as something that.

M

David ensign:, you know,, I think, the public's going to get nervous because there's just still so a lot of unanswered questions and from a very thematic standpoint, just to make a speech,, I would say see you.

M

David ensign: should be motivated to do whatever they can in an attic section agreement to inspire us by,. You know, they've done this in the main campus things. Slowly reduce the car impact on the main campus and made it harder and harder to drive in.

M

David ensign: can show us how this is totally de, emphasizing the car that that we really accommodate the you know: the the transit options., the alternative transportation bikes that pedestrians,, but we we very carefully manage any sort of individual car traffic,. You know, to the best of our ability.

M

David ensign: and and that comes with residential,, so that's a challenge.

G

Sarah silver pb:, so as long as since we're the focus is primarily on format and presentation and it sort of gets right to public engagement and I have to be honest. I spent so much time going through the book that I really did not get to the public engagement, two pager and I apologize for that.

G

Sarah silver pb:, but this is a dense document and I'm kind of taken aback by the.

G

Sarah silver pb: hope that we're going to go through a public engagement process that basically last two and a half months in the middle of a pandemic over the christmas holiday.

G

Sarah silver pb:: I don't think that that's adequate time or an appropriate mean.

G

Sarah silver pb:, the that I realized that there's nothing we can do about the.

G

Sarah silver pb: book coven, except to wear masks,, but I am really concerned.

G

Sarah silver pb: and put off by a schedule that.

G

Sarah silver pb: puts everybody.

G

Sarah silver pb: in a very tight timeframe, on something that's really very, very complex., and I think it's going to undermine trust in the process and make the process less credible to pretty much everyone who gets engaged, unless they are.

G

Sarah silver pb: have already been engaged,, and I think we just need to be really thought really careful about.

G

Sarah silver pb:, I know we have.. I know we have a timeline we're trying to stick to. but it's, um,. I don't think it's realistic if you really want public engagement on something this complex.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, the other side of that is because it's virtual and online. it can be done at home online and.

AB

Peter vitale pb: the fact that it's holidays is actually an advantage in some ways, because people have time to engage, perhaps, or it's just a whole new reality in terms of how you do this virtually without getting together and discussing it in small settings.. So I agree with you that.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, there's almost not enough time period in the world period to really hit the community up to speed on a topic that has created that there's led to the creation of a book like this.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, but if you're at the alternate is to extend or to push the time.

AB

Peter vitale pb:- I worry that will never be the right time.

M

David ensign:, there is a city.

M

david ensign: kovac funded coven program to provide internet access to under represented communities in boulder.

M

Peter vitale pb: good point., david ensign:. I wonder if we, you know, we,. I think that the city is doing a great job of having meetings and and making them accessible to people,, but anything we can do to.

M

David ensign: to address that upfront, concerns. gotta, I mean really good point.. It's hard.

M

David ensign: for some people,, especially for some people- it's actually maybe a little easier., but for some. for some,, it's hard. and we don't want people to get disenfranchised,. So if we can have ways to.

M

David ensign: upfront try to acknowledge that it's challenging and provide mechanisms by which we're trying to make it easier for the public to engage that would be really great. and just one of them would be. If we have the.

M

David ensign: internet. If we have technology, we have ipads that we lend to people were internet access.

M

David ensign:, if we could offer that to people who are don't have the equipment that they need to engage that could be really interesting,. You know,.

AB

Peter vitale pb: know can yeah well yeah. We condition, the provision of internet to them. Reading the document and then sending a book report in and if you don't need the internet,, then you don't get water.

AB

Peter vitale pb: services until you've proven you've, read this and then demonstrated a full knowledge of all the topics.

L

John gerstle pb: oh,, I have to say I think sarah's point is- is realistic.

AB

Peter vitale pb: both of you,. I agree with nothing. Anyone cut you off., but like,. So what do we do?.

G

Sarah silver pb: well,, I mean, I,. This goes back to the very first issue. I brought up,, which is we're on this time line because of the coupling of.

G

Sarah silver pb: the,, the flood mitigation work and the the annexation, and the annexation is sort of being done. it's,. It's not actually being done in a vacuum, as we know,, because phil has produced this amazing document.

G

Sarah silver pb:, but it is in many ways it is done in a vacuum, because there isn't there isn't even a concept: plan, much less a site review plan. So.

G

Sarah silver pb:: I I'm guessing we're not going to be able to address the decoupling issue. overall,, but.

G

Sarah silver pb: that we're we're under this time.

G

Sarah silver pb: frame- that's.

G

Sarah silver pb: that and I appreciate a peter, what you said: about.. We don't want this to still be having this conversation 10 years from now,, I totally get it., but.

G

Sarah silver pb:, we haven't really been having.. I mean, the public hasn't been having the conversation about. What's going to go, there, the public's been having the conversation about the flood mitigation plan and.

G

Sarah silver pb: once that got resolved in some ways were the public is starting over again at, at, okay,. What's gonna., what is this now.

G

Sarah silver pb:, phil isn't and we're not,, but lots of the people in the public are. and I just, I'm quite concerned about this very truncated timeline.. I think it undermines the very thing you're trying to accomplish what we want to accomplish,, which is an engaged public that feels they've had a.

G

Sarah silver pb: say in in what's going,, what's going to happen, here.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob): is there a general board agreement on that and that piece.

L

John gerstle pb: agree with it, and, and I can say also that it seems to me that it would be appropriate to spark the neighborhood engagement efforts sooner rather than later. in fact, I've,. I've.

L

John gerstle pb: had some messages already from folks and martin acres wondering why they haven't been contacted when the sun is going to city council's or soon.

L

John gerstle pb:, so I think it's essential to move ahead with the neighborhood engagement aspects and in order to do that, we need to have this ready to give to them in a manner that they can actually comprehend. It.

L

John gerstle pb:, it's it's a challenge. and I just don't see how the timetable that has been proposed will allow them.

M

David ensign: yeah,, I would not.

M

David ensign:, I would not sign on to a message from the planning board,, at least from my perspective, that we, we need to apply the brakes. um,. I think that.

M

David ensign:, if it's done well.

M

david ensign:, you know there isn't you know the public has a say and can really help this. This become a better outcome.

M

David ensign:, but david ensign:, but there are aspects of it that we don't have control over as well. So.

M

David ensign: we have, we,. We have to make sure that we maximize the amount of public impact that we can have on the areas where the public can have any influence.

M

David ensign:, but unfortunately we're not in a position where every wishes of every member of the public is going to get granted. so,. So the question is, when, when do people feel listened to and when have we gotten the best.

M

David ensign:, you know the best feedback that can actually make a difference in the end, result.

M

David ensign: so,, so we want to. We want to make people feel better. and we want to have a good result. and it's not to me.. It doesn't mean that we have to put a halt or,. You know, put this really, really long time frame on and if it's done, well. um,, I do think it needs to be done. Well.

M

David ensign: be, if we, if we don't want, you know a lot of anger.

M

David ensign:, you know if people feeling pacify.

G

Sarah silver pb: yeah,, I'm not saying put on the break., I'm not saying break., I'm I just don't think I if I'm,, if my recollection, is correct., it was like a two and a half month. Process.

G

Sarah silver pb:, three weeks of which will be the holidays., and that's just that just seems like not enough time.. I mean,, I just doesn't seem like enough. Time.

G

Sarah silver pb: to me.

M

David ensign: okay.

L

John gerstle pb: good., I would say that I have a somewhat different perception of what our objective is. Here.

L

John gerstle pb: david,, you talked about making sure that the population feels good about this and accepts it and and is willing to move ahead.. If I understood correctly,, I.

L

John gerstle pb: to be perfectly blunt.. I don't think that's what our goal is here.. Our goal here is to evaluate what the best conditions in terms and arrangements for an acceleration.

L

John gerstle pb: would be for boulder,, and I don't think it's our objective with this process to try and get everyone in town to sign on to it. Because.

M

David ensign:, we haven't., I didn't mean to imply that in fact, I I probably said exactly the opposite. during my ramblings as well.

M

Sarah silver pb:, I think david ensign:. I said it- definitely not everybody's going to be happy for that. yeah., yeah., right., right., yeah.,.

L

John gerstle pb: so,, so my john gerstle pb:. I think that where we can really benefit from this public input is to make sure that our an extinction agreement.

L

John gerstle pb: is the way it should be the best it can be. and for that to happen.. We need to have the input from these neighborhoods that are directly affected, and I fear that just having one or two sessions with them.

L

John gerstle pb: is insufficient for us to do that and fill light.. I mean, I may be misunderstanding what you're actually planning in that respect., but I do think that it's essential.

L

John gerstle pb:, I mean, all these. I live in north boulder, like I care a lot., what happens there,, but I would care a lot more. If I lived in the temperature.

L

John gerstle pb: and was worried about you, know x files and cars driving by my car in by my house in this connection.. So I think that we need to devote significant level of effort to these affected neighborhoods and I don't see that.

L

John gerstle pb: the possible in the timetable that we're discussing.

AB

Peter vitale pb: it for not officially on topic item to. Let's make sure that we are now.

AB

David ensign:, because we are we're transition., I'm sorry. I.

L

John gerstle pb: just assumed that.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, I figured we were,, but I just want to make sure.

M

David ensign:, I actually was a knowledge that a long time ago. and then I forgot.

AB

Peter vitale pb: my first, what it would look like., then let's say what what the items would look like., because I imagine that it's whatever we decided is gonna work.

AB

Peter vitale pb: you're, saying we need more time to do those things., so we can go round and round that we need more time, but more time to do what,. What is the engagement? Looking like.

M

David ensign: okay, I'll, just summarize the notes. I click down here when I went through this and it isn't much,. I just thought that you know the comments that we made about making the briefing book more.

M

David ensign:, more organized and readable will really help and then.

M

David ensign:, when we go to the public reviews, pulling that information out and making it more visual. visual, so the public can talk about it in a more targeted way will be great.

M

David ensign:, so that that was kind of what I put down and then I kind of stopped there.. So I didn't look at all of the individual outreach things in enough detail to feel comfortable.

M

David ensign: and commenting too much on that peter. did anybody have some ideas of what additional outreach would look like, or.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, I would just bucket.. I would go off of what I said: before, perhaps,, which is there.. There, are themes here that people are going to gravitate towards.

AB

Peter vitale pb: and those will be the items that they're going to engage with. and if they're asked to engage with this whole thing in general, they won't or if they think, well,. I don't know anything about. All I've heard about is variant. 1246 flood hydrated,, you know, death, flooding.,.

AB

Peter vitale pb: rogers. peter vitale, pb: like,. I don't know about that., I'm gonna leave that to the experts. I'm going to go. Take care of this other thing in my life.. I have to take care of and just hope for the best in that project,, but I'm sure it's going to screw up because they always screw it up. So.

AB

Peter vitale pb: it,, but if you know what's going to look like. is it is it going to be, traffic is going to be, pretty, is going to be cool,? Can I still walk there? Are they going to like.

AB

Peter vitale pb: do toronto concrete with pebbles mouse skeletons is probably., that's what they always do. Those developer people so.

AB

Peter vitale pb: give people. the thing that they want to engage with and maybe be a little humorous about it as well.. We need that these days. don't make it a chore for them to.

AB

Peter vitale pb: have to submit to this thing where they have to now read up on it. yes,. I had read up on it. but no,. I make it so that it's just a questions that they can answer about, the things that they care about their community and they can self select out for the topics they care. About.

M

David ensign: well,, so they may be breaking up some of these briefings into targeted subject matters would be useful.. I could see that.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, if you answer the, the things you care about,, then you're taking two questions that.

AB

Peter vitale pb: are framed in that way that don't take a lot of extra work. It's it's keeping like sarah said about the book.. It's keeping everything that's in this engagement strategy,, but it's knowing that.

AB

Peter vitale pb: meet the people where they are in their subject, area, interest or their time, or just the detail that are going to know about this already.

G

Sarah silver pb:, so there's a there's a.

G

Sarah silver pb: that be sarah silver, pb:, environmental, restoration, natural resource.

G

Sarah silver pb: meeting and there'd be a transportation meeting and there'd be a design and what is a cluster village mean meeting and there'd be, what,? What would be a couple of other.

G

Peter vitale, pb: yeah topics and people can fit it in their mouth, they're, going to do it and.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, you know,, they get their arms around it.. I look like cluster village right, there. you're going to get a ton of folks. and we all know baked into that concept or a lot of these concepts,. But it's just a.

AB

Peter vitale pb: much more user friendly topic that people can hook into., so I think transportation. I mean, david,. You spent a lot of time on this topic. the, you know,. There are things that.

AB

Peter vitale pb: people come to the meetings wanting to talk about or that stop you. because they know you focus on this stuff.. So the transportation,, I think, is a great.

AB

David ensign: bucket. yeah,. If we have the capacity to do that kind of thing., I think it would be useful to have targeted discussions. yeah.

M

M

david ensign:, when we have digital world cafe on the schedule, can did we cover what that was.? I was trying to remember.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, it's just an idea.. We had where the mayor, mayor weaver, asked for kind of a brainstorming type of event for larger event.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, and so we just had an idea about usually those that kind of topic tables and you would spend 10 minutes and you do some brainstorming and talk with the facilitator. And then you go to different tables and we thought about maybe figuring out. If we can do that via zoom might be an interesting.

Z

Jean gatza, staff moderator (she/her): area,, but we're still going to work on the potential design on that,. But I think it does get a little bit, to your point of giving people the ability to self select where they're, where they're interested in engaging and what topics. So.

G

Sarah silver pb:, it doesn't mean you, don't also do some neighborhood meetings right now, but.

G

Sarah silver pb:, it's a,, it's another. It's peter vitale, pb:, another way to focus the filter that go get a lot of people who would say, look,. Nobody wants to look stupid.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, and so if they can go towards something that they know something about or care about, their way more inclined to give their time to do. That. and they'll love to do it.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, so just,, that's an engagement strategy that I just made up and I think it would work for a topic like this. yeah.

G

Sarah silver pb:: how would you, peter,? How would you think about an engagement strategy on the question of.

G

Sarah silver, pb: accountability and engagement strategy on the question of costs.

AB

Peter vitale pb: well, there are people who love saying their fiscal conservatives are fiscal.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, you know, the weather, wherever the word is late. um,. I think just.

AB

Peter vitale pb: mom financial accountability,, you know, they're.

AB

Peter vitale pb: just you.

AB

peter vitale, pb: know,. I think the word accountability is going to draw certain type of person who wouldn't otherwise engage in a topic like this,, but it's something they care. About.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, like me off of this election season., I think that's going to be a topic.. A lot of people are gonna want to know. we're going to lean into so.

AB

Peter vitale pb:. What was the first one accountability once.

G

Sarah silver pb: one is cost., and I think that that's obviously a.

G

Sarah silver pb:, there are a lot of peter vitale pb: unknowns there and you, sarah silver pb:, see them., you see it in the matrix that fills in the term sheet, like you can see these moments where.

G

Sarah silver pb:, like the land, paying paying.

G

Sarah silver pb: for some of the open space proposed open space and then also it being suggested that we pay for the moved dirt in the open space. Like there's.

G

Sarah silver pb: there's some double dipping being proposed in a few elements of this, and I think folks are going to want to explore. there'll, be folks who will want to explore that.

G

Sarah silver pb: and, and I think it's important.

G

Peter vitale pb: to do that deal making.. So some people love love the deal. love the negotiation love they could negotiate a napkin purchase.

AB

Peter vitale pb: for their peter vitale, pb: house, or their company or, or,, you know, a ferrari.. It doesn't matter what it is, it's just. They love that so that engage the people who love that side of things that they're the deal. People there, the strategy. Negotiation. you know,, I think.

G

Sarah silver pb: peter,, I agree with you and I,, and I think that part of this is about.

G

Sarah silver pb: sort of on sarah silver pb:, this, the I'll call it unfunded mandates,, although that's not exactly what this could end up being,, but it's the potential for a city, a burden on the city and its tax, payers.

G

Sarah silver pb: that,, I think,, has to be accounted, has to be acknowledged or identified and discussed as part of this process.

H

Sarah silver pb:, so that when the bill comes due,.

G

Sarah silver pb: in 10 years.

G

Sarah silver pb: there's been. Hopefully there won't be a bill that comes to like there's just, it is, to me,, it's not as sexy as preambles mouse and it's not as sexy as,. Is it going to be? Four stories are five stories,, but it is fundamental to this situation that the city and see you are negotiating.

AB

Peter vitale pb: well,. The goal is to get as many people as possible to engage with it. you're gonna, you're, not gonna, get anywhere with people who are going to engage with that piece, because that's really.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, where we put our everyone's going to agree that that's important and needs to be done., so it'll be a given. It's already., it's a given that nobody is going to want.

AB

Peter vitale pb: something a bad deal to be made., so if the engagement is, do you think a bad deal should be made where we're on the hook for a bunch of costs.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, no ever say, no,, I don't think so.. So then what then? What's the next engagement strategy? Around that. now you're asking folks to become.

AB

Peter vitale pb: pretty much heavy duty, subject matter experts on all of the topics and then do the job of the city for the city. and I think that's going to be the word. Unfunded mandate.

AB

Sarah silver pb: yeah,, I'm.

AB

Peter vitale pb: pretty sure we pay people to do that. You just,, I can give you some advice on.

AB

Peter vitale pb: a few things as a city person, but I gotta go, get groceries and go home.

AB

Peter vitale pb: can I be.

M

David ensign: throwing something on that.. I think that city council.- they are our elected officials,, so we can. I think that you feel you've, you've heard these concerns and I think city council is really the one that actually answers to a lot of these.

M

David ensign: best use of the taxpayer money question., so I think that we could probably let council decide how they want to communicate to the public.

M

David ensign:, how much things are costing and the financial agreements that have been made without planning board having to get too much in the weeds on that,. But I just, you know,.

G

Sarah silver pb: about planning board.. This was about public peter vitale, pb: engagement.. I want to live in a world like you're talking about.

AB

David ensign:, what I.

L

John gerstle pb: think john gerstle pb:, the city council may decide may make the decisions,, but it should be clear to all what we're getting involved with and what the obligations and costs might be.

M

David ensign:, I bet., but I think that we're starting to.

M

David ensign: spend an awful lot of time, trying to micromanage how that may get communicated.. I mean, yeah,, I mean, maybe,. Maybe it makes sense to have a public outreach., I'm maybe it makes sense to publish the financials within the.

M

David ensign:, in the local news and and and just disclose everything to the public in news, and then I mean I just don't., I don't know what the strategy necessarily has to be.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, you can do some thinking on it to us. we be. We should have the that information., it's just a matter of how to communicate it. So.

M

David ensign:, another thing my thought about that. I've seen is that the the public is interested in the affordable housing aspect of this.. So we know that the university wants to house.

M

David ensign: faculty and staff, and that kind of thing.. But it would be interesting for the city to be able to kind of convey to folks what we can and can't ask for with.

M

David ensign: with the cu arrangement,, because I know that they are not subject to the exclusionary housing regulations in the city. right,. So.

M

David ensign:, so it might be good because people. people bring that up all the time. and then again,. I think that sarah mentioned this,, if you know I'm it's kind of a strange thing to think about.. But if the if the land ever.

M

David ensign: got purchased by another entity.

M

david ensign:, you know,. Would we have the ability to insert exclusionary housing regulations on a new owner., so what kinds of what kinds of things can be looked? At. there.

G

Sarah silver pb: well,, I still., I mean,. I don't want to having a policy discussion,, but I stand my by my position that, if see you sells the land.. The only thing that gets conveyed with the land are the, the new that no longer new land use.

G

Sarah silver pb: designations and that the new applicant would have to.

G

Sarah silver pb:, you know,, presuming presuming nothing had been built, other than the.

G

Sarah silver pb: flood mitigation stuff., I mean, the only reason to see you can do what it's doing right now is because it's a state entity and we don't have.

G

Sarah silver pb: control.- we don't have they, they are.

G

Sarah silver pb: superiors, the wrong word,, but they are not required to abide by.

G

Peter vitale pb: their sovereignty, charles. If they saw that the private owner would then I still have to.

AB

Peter vitale pb: go through the process for the specific.

AB

Peter vitale pb: buildings and and pieces that were built.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder, :, by by the terms of the agreement.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, the sovereignty would transfer limit.

AB

charles ferro, city of boulder :, I'm sorry, you're, talking pre annexation or post acquisition.

K

Peter vitale, pb: post it post sanitation, used to sell us a swap this.

AB

Peter vitale pb: and it's just,- it's still raw land right there and then.

AB

Peter vitale pb:, a private owner, says, oh,, I'm gonna,. I want to create a massive mixed use. Development on this site.

AB

Peter vitale pb: they will peter vitale pb: one,, it's no longer. They no longer have the sovereignty of the university as their cloak.. They have whatever we have agreed to at that point on the property,, but there's still a whole raft of of hopes of.

AB

Peter vitale pb: of guideposts they have to pass through in order to to get a building permit right. I see that maybe david or charles.

Q

David gehr: well, just quickly so david gehr:, it's an annexation., so just understand annexation, law.

Q

David gehr:, it will only occur between.

Q

David gehr:, a willing property owner and a willing city willing to annex them., and I think, as it has been mentioned by members of the public, which I I agree with this- is that.

Q

David gehr: in this deal, you'll want to put everything you can., that you want to hold the university to in the annexation agreement or as much as you can.

Q

David gehr: and they with respect to their higher education function, which is a rather broad topic.. They are a sovereign entity.

Q

David gehr: and david gehr:, you know, it's their board of regents that governs what happens on university property outside of an agreement, of course.

Q

David gehr: not, not the boulder city. Council.- david gehr:, so if, if we came up with the annexation agreement that was mutually agreeable.

Q

David gehr: and see you said: yeah let's., I'm just going to sell the property to this private developer, they're going to be subject to the terms of that annexation, agreement and have,, as has been brought before the board in the past.

Q

David gehr:, if ever they wanted to change the terms of the annexation agreement,, they would have to come through, and you know, request a recommendation from the planning board and then ask the city council, whether or not.

Q

David gehr:, they would be interested and amending the agency agreement,, but again, that puts you right back into a contract,. You know, it's another contractual negotiations and we have done that with nfc shoes in the past.. So it's not. It's not unheard. Of.

G

Sarah silver pb: david. can I just follow up.. I guess I'm a little I'm unclear about something.

G

Sarah silver pb:- let's assume, there's an annexation agreement that both parties agree to. and then,, but it's still big, because there's no site plan and then see these are all hypothetical. see. You then sells the land to a private developer.

G

Sarah silver pb: that private developer now has does that private developer have the rights to develop.

G

Sarah silver pb:, a what see you had been has in the house do, is ask this question. um Does.

G

Sarah silver pb: does, does the private developer have to go through the site, review process.

G

Sarah silver pb:, when they've already got sarah silver pb:, a annexation agreement framework that did not require a site review process because the city, because the see you didn't have to go through the site, review, process.

Q

David gehr: sure it's whatever is in the agreement. right.. So you know if that was a concern for the city.. I might recommend that you say we're going to use this process to review. Development.-.

Q

David gehr:, that is proposed by the university of colorado and his colorado, were to sell the property to.

Q

David gehr:, a private sector, developer that the private sector developer would be subject to where to city standard. Zoning rules are required to go through the site, review, process.

Q

David gehr: so,, I mean,. I think that that's probably one of the next steps that phil will be thinking about is, like,. So what are these issues that are really important to us.

Q

David gehr: and then so you know you start doing some of your, what if,, what if, spinning and then we start drafting to,. You know, like assess the risk and.

Q

David gehr: and if there's a risk that raises real concern and spend some time thinking about how you're going to protect the city from from an outcome that he might fear the future. right.

G

Sarah silver, pb: and david.. Let me ask another question, which I think is an attorney question.. So the value of the cost question the value of the land increases once an annexation agreement is breached.

H

Sarah silver pb: twice.

G

Sarah silver pb:, I believe, and.

G

Sarah silver pb:, how does,? How in within the body of the annexation agreement, can the city protect itself financially from the immediate increase in costs for saying buying an additional 30 acres of that open space? Other land.

G

David gehr: can can sarah silver pb:. Can the agreement.

G

sarah silver pb: set a price prior to the annexation agreement being signed, or does it happen after just curious how that works.

Q

David gehr: well, my,, my guess is,. We would probably you know if if there were, you know, one of the issues that has been bantered about is,, you know, see, you has made an offer to sell some.

Q

David gehr:, you know some of the open space other land at fair market, value. well,, one of the things that.

Q

David gehr:, with all real estate negotiations, is you got to figure out.? So what does that mean? I mean my view of the world is at least in the boulder valley that annexing land into a city that can provide you with utility services and urban services and all of those kind of things.

Q

David gehr: is going to increase the value of the land because you can, you know, get under county land. You sony you to get one per 35: acres, 120 or 35 acres. that's,. That's not very intense. Development..

Q

David gehr: so yeah,, so I think that probably part of the discussion that would be had, as part of that purchases. You know the evaluate had its value in unincorporated, boulder county.

Q

David gehr: do evaluate as annex property or is it someplace in the middle.

Q

David gehr:, you know,, I guess the place where I would start is that.

Q

David gehr: are active, annex and properties.. What adds value. so I would,. I would not want to.

Q

David gehr: necessarily give urban.

Q

David gehr: urban zone value to something that that we that we created just by the the legislative active bringing them into.

G

Sarah silver pb:. I appreciate that explanation.. Thank you very much..

M

David ensign:, so I'm with, I think, we've covered all the time on topics in the key issues with with some degree of thoroughness.

M

David ensign:, I know there's, we could probably go on forever.. Phil is, if have you gotten information from us that you think you can hear suggestions from us that you think you can use and.

AA

Yes. phil kleisler (cob):, very helpful.. Thank you so much,, especially for staying up late and talking about this,. I will coin help. Give you credit for the choose. Your adventure.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, it's great. and we'll go ahead, and just summarize this at a high level, and the council, memo that'll go next week. and just to let them know will be working on these changes, right.

G

Sarah silver pb:, thank you for all the work in you.. It's great.

M

David ensign: yeah, it's,, it's incredible amount of work has gone into this. and thanks, thanks to the planning board members.. I know this is difficult. Staying up so late and and everything so well.. Let's go ahead and close off that item and.

M

David ensign:, let's move on to debrief and calendar check anything anybody wanted to talk about with just the four of us in here before we put out.

L

John gerstle pb: yeah, there were a couple things I wanted to just check with charles and david.

L

John gerstle pb: recently,, you know,, there's been several issues that either the county or the city have to decide that have a big impact on each other.

L

John gerstle pb:, I'm thinking, for example, the rifle range discussion and in north boulder and and what's happening out at the reservoir, with the with the proposed restaurant and neighbors around. they're, sending emails.

L

John gerstle pb:, and so I'm just wondering to what degree. the city is, participating or or testifying in the counties decisions, for example, on the rifle range and to what degree, the county is participating in cities. Decisions on.

L

John gerstle pb:, the reservoir with the restaurant.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, so the rifle range is located in boulder county.. So we are city, staff doesn't have any jurisdiction.

L

John gerstle pb: well,, I understand that., but the city will be affected, both because of its open space being right. Next to that, as well as some of its neighborhoods.

L

John gerstle pb: being close enough to be impacted by the additional noise and so on.. But I'm just wondering if I'm not saying the city, what what they should be saying,, I'm just asking if they are even being involved.

Q

David gehr:, you know,, I think phil,, do you have anything you want to add phil, kleisler, (cob):, sure yeah. We we have through the iga with the county for the comprehensive plan,, a process for receiving referrals for developing applications in the county.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):. We received one a referral for that particular application.. It was some time ago now, pre, coven and planning the planning department and open space department did issue referral comments to them that we could share with the board.

L

John gerstle pb:, but john gerstle pb: be very interested to see those.

AA

John gerstle pb: thank you., phil, kleisler, (cob): and I,. My understanding is they had like 12 hours of hearings this week about that and tabled. It is what I the last I heard.

AA

John gerstle pb: oh,.

L

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, our referral comments were so long ago.. I don't even really remember the tenor of.

K

Sarah silver pb: them so.

AA

Phil kleisler (cob):, it really just focuses on. Is it urban development that's happening in the county and area too, and if so, we are they,, they refer them to us rate for annexation,, but just didn't.

AA

Come out very sensitive.

M

David ensign: is this something you would just add: providers, an informational.

M

David ensign: update to us. charles ferro, city of boulder : yeah,. We can just shoot an email to the board.

M

John gerstle pb:, like you, would be great.

M

david ensign:, good idea. john. thank you.

M

david ensign:, any other cindy. Anything for calendar check.

A

Cindy spence: know,, our next meeting is the 19th and it's just going to be strictly matters.. I think we have a matter from amps.

A

Cindy spence: and then sarah silver pb: and then we're letter., cindy spence:, the letter. yeah.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder, : and you'll get to meet our new planning and development services director.

X

Sarah silver pb: awesome, hey,.

M

David ensign: look forward to that. and we all need to get our input for the letter once harmon sends out the rephrased question. We get that to you by 15 days before the meeting that or would you like it, earlier.

A

Cindy spence:, well, I'll send out an email with the date and everything,, probably a few days before, and then I just sent out an email to you guys regarding the application.

A

Cindy spence:, I need your feedback.. If you have any, you may not have any., but if you have any feedback, I need that by the 13th, because I've got a compiled on and get it to the clerk's office.

A

Sarah silver pb: awesome, great.

M

David ensign: charles. anything else you had for us.

K

Charles ferro, city of boulder : know, just want to thank cindy and gene for their help tonight and.

K

M

Charles ferro, city of boulder : of course, phil., david ensign:, thanks everybody for staying up too late.. We haven't gotten past midnight in a while and now it's past 2am, where you are, sarah.. So thank you.

M

Cindy spence: to sorry.

G

Sarah silver pb: did it to myself.

L

John gerstle pb:, I got my next zoom meeting at 530 tomorrow, morning.

M

David ensign:, but then I think what I'll do is I'll change. My zoom background.

Z

David ensign:, this is my big thing for my first.

G

Sarah silver pb:, you did a great job, david.

X

Charles ferro, city of boulder :, good night, everybody. have a great night.

AB

David ensign:, the later., let's hope for 270 soon. yeah.

Q

David gehr:, thank you. All.