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From YouTube: City of Charleston Committee on Ways and Means 10/12/21
Description
City of Charleston Committee on Ways and Means 10/12/21
B
C
Thank
you,
please.
Let
us
pray,
lord
god,
you
are
the
provider,
you
are
the
healer,
you
are
the
giver
of
all
that
we
need
and
all
that
we
can
imagine
we
ask
that
you
be
the
beneficiary
of
this
city
as
we
serve.
Our
citizens,
help
us
to
make
wise
decisions
and
to
never
lead
your
presence
in
your
name.
We
pray,
amen,
amen.
B
E
It's
a
2014
general
obligation.
Bond
savings
would
be
around,
I
think,
eight
hundred
thousand
dollars
sec
you're
welcome.
B
C
F
E
C
C
B
C
B
Person
seconded
okay
can
someone
sort
of
give
us
a
sense
of
because
I
did
see
the
comparison
chart?
Yes,.
A
Sure,
good
afternoon,
everyone
good
afternoon,
chairman
and
members
of
the
committee
so
based
on
the
discussion
from
last
meeting,
hr,
legal
and
finance-
looked
at
other
municipalities
that
are
comparable
in
size
to
look
at
comparable
salaries
for
their
council
members,
and
that
was
presented
to
you
guys
in
a
in
a
memo
earlier
last
week
and
just
for
the
record
of
note
mount
pleasant
has
a
population
of
approximately
ninety
thousand
eight
hundred
their
salary
is
fifteen
thousand.
A
We've
got
north
charleston
with
a
population
of
114,
852
and
council.
Salary
for
north
charleston
is
20
657..
Then,
if
you
look
at
savannah,
they
have
a
population
of
147,
000
and
just
bear
in
mind.
Charleston
presently
is
150
227.
As
far
as
constituents
are
concerned,
savannah
is
at
25
000..
So
then
we
also
looked
at
council
salaries,
how
they
would
look
if
they
had
been
afforded
the
opportunity
of
the
cola
advance
from
2016
through
2021
and
that's
how
we
came
to
the
proposed
number.
G
Oh
okay,
thank
you.
It
was
25
000
and
thank
you.
Miss
copeland
for
getting
comparisons
of
the
other
cities
in
particular,
savannah
savannah
from
a
population
standpoint
comes
as
close
to
charleston
as
any
other
city.
Obviously,
north
charleston
is
not
quite
20,
not
quite
21.
000
and
they've
got
what
about
35
000
less
citizens.
G
I
don't
think
this
may
sound
selfish,
but
I
think
this
is
the
hardest
and
I
include
the
mayor,
and
this
is
the
hardest
working
city
council
in
the
state
of
south
carolina.
I
don't
think
anybody
works
on
the
issues
that
we're
having
to
work
on
and,
frankly
bring
the
best
of
our
intellect
the
salsa.
G
G
It's
continual
work,
I
don't
think
even
at
25
000.
I
don't
think
anybody
can
work
out
any
financial
calculation
that
says
we
get
paid
minimum
wage.
We
get
a
w-2
form,
but
it's
not
based
on
minimum
wage.
G
G
Everybody
on
this
council
shouldn't
be
great
here,
but
to
say
that
twenty
five
thousand
supplement
is
exorbitant
I'll,
speak
to
anybody
in
my
district
that
I'm
pleased
to
serve
to
explain
why
that
I
think
minimum
number
should
be
there
an
event
that
a
person
that
works
in
the
stockroom
of
a
grocery
store
should
be
able
to
serve
on
council.
G
I
just
described
councilmember
lewis,
who
served
for
24
years,
and
I
don't
think
anybody
could
say
his
service
was
bad
or
poor.
He
was
exemplary.
He
stayed
walking
on
the
sidewalk
and
kept
his
air
to
the
ground.
Councilman
sacrament
has
a
big,
big,
big,
big
challenge.
I'm
sure
he'll
agree
with
that.
So
I
think
savannah
has
it
right
around
25
000
for
around
150
000
and
when
north
charleston
and
mount
pleasant
the
way
they
are
growing
and
they
get
up
to
25
000.
I
mean
get
up
to
150
000
citizens.
G
B
B
G
B
B
Well,
if
it
was
actually
calculated
using
cola,
if
we
had
gotten
the
colas,
it
would
come
to
the
20
000..
I
think
with
council
member.
What
councilmember
waring
is
saying
that's
great
to
do.
C
A
A
A
B
A
Too,
if
we're
going
to
amend
the
the
council
salaries,
you
might
want
to
consider
amending
the
mayor
pro
tem
provision
in
here
as
well.
B
D
D
To
make,
if
you
don't
mind,
okay,
thank
you,
sir.
I'm
really
glad
that
we're
talking
about
this
today,
because
it's
it's
appropriate
with
the
fact
that
we
just
had
a
budget
workshop
and
looked
at
what
the
rest
of
our
employees
are
making
looking
at
the
fact
that
we
are
significantly
understaffed
and
looking
at
the
fact
that,
even
this
year
and
and
thanks
to
some
help
from
the
federal
government,
we're
only
able
to
give
a
very
menial
improvement
in
pay
to
all
of
our
employees.
D
Meanwhile,
we're
looking
at
percentages
that
if
we
were
to
hand
that
out
elsewhere,
we
would
be
shocked
15
if
we
go
with
the
cost
of
living
adjustment
and
well
over
30
percent.
If
we
start
jump
the
pa
pay
up
to
25
000.
D
D
I
was
pleasantly
surprised
when
it
was,
but
I
think
that
we're
all
very,
very
lucky
that
we
have
the
most
amazing
benefits
and
health
insurance
that
we
could
possibly
have
by
being
on
city,
council
and
being
with
our
group
here
I
mean
that
in
itself
is
a
significant,
significant
amount
of
money
that
we're
saving.
When
we
go
to
the
doctor
or
get
our
eyes
checked
or
get
our
teeth
clean,
I
am
not
going
to
support
raising
our
salaries
at
all.
D
I
would
do
this
job
for
free
and
I
think
if
we
can
keep
our
salaries,
where
they're
at
right
now
and
try
to
invest
more
money
back
into
our
employees,
pockets
so
that
we
can
help
them
pay
for
groceries
and
maybe
even
live
the
dream
of
living
in
this
city,
because
most
of
them
do
not.
That
to
me
means
a
lot
more
than
a
few
more
bucks
in
my
pocket.
Thank
you.
B
Thank
you
for
that.
You
still
give
your
salary.
D
I
have
donated
several
checks
to
the
city
this
year
because
I
wanted
to
try
to
help
during
the
crisis
this
year
right.
E
D
B
And
I
I
think
that
you're
fortunate
to
be
able
to
do
that,
but
everybody
can't-
and
I
think
that's
the
issue-
that
we're
trying
to
make
sure
that
anyone
who
wants
to
serve
on
council,
regardless
of
their
income
and
salary,
would
have
the
opportunity
to
do
so.
If
we
put
that
salary
at
a
point
where
they
can.
E
H
All
right,
so
I
just
did,
and
maybe
amy
or
julia
can
help
me
with
this
and
make
sure
I
did
this
properly.
So
I
just
took
a
the
salary
of
a
sample
of
cities.
H
But
it
does
put
it
a
little
bit
in
perspective
that
we're
at
the
very
bottom,
when
you
do
a
ratio
between
the
people
that
we're
serving
and
the
statement
that
we're
receiving-
and
you
know,
councilmember
griffin-
has
raised
some
good
points
about
this
concerning
the
messaging
that
we're
trying
to
send
to
our
employees,
because
I
I
get
those
calls
from
the
fire
department.
I've
got
five
men
in
my
district
who
are
complaining
and
we
did
make
an
adjustment
in
2017.
H
I
believe
I'm
correct
on
that
with
an
overall
salary
adjustment
and
the
cost
of
living,
but
the
the
councilmember
wearing's
point
about
this.
This
should
not
be
a
negative.
None
of
us
here
are
working
to,
because
this
is
the
money
that
we'll
receive.
That's,
not
the
purpose
of
any
of
this
stuff.
H
If
we
are,
I
think,
we're
in
the
wrong
business.
You
think
you'll
get
rich
being
on
city
council
you're
in
the
wrong
business.
That's
not!
Why
we're
here
and
to
me
this
doesn't
make
any
difference.
How
much
money
is
left
in
my
pocket,
regardless
of
whether
we
do
this
or
not?
But
what
I
don't
want
to
happen.
H
I
in
this
election
cycle
is
already
happening,
so
it's
not
going
to
impact
this
election
cycle,
but
I
don't
want
to
discourage
anyone
from
serving
on
city,
government
and
city
council,
because
they
see
this
as
a
negative,
and
that's
that
really
bothers
me,
because
it
is
a
huge
dedication
of
time
on
our
part
and
I
I'm
able
to
do
it
because
I'm
a
sole
practitioner
and
I'm
my
own
boss,
I
mean
I've
got
my
clients.
H
H
We've
got
to
make
some
really
hard
decisions
on
what
we're
going
to
do
this
budget
year
about
getting
our
staff
employees
to
pay
that
they
are
completely
entitled
to,
and
we
we've
got
some
very
dedicated.
I
mean
some
very
dedicated
city
employees
and
some
very
dedicated
first
responders
who
do
the
job,
because
I
guess
it's
all
the
same
reasons
we're
doing
this
job.
They
love
our
their
community.
H
I
Sorry!
I
appreciate
that
councilman
waring
brought
this
up
to
begin
with,
and
it's
not
it's
rare
across
all
levels
of
government
to
see
a
young
female
holding
office
and
one
of
the
biggest
reasons
is
because
of
the
pay
you
know.
Typically,
you
know
I
I
don't
have
any
other
income
coming
into
my
family,
except
for
what
I
bring
in.
That's
it.
There's
no
spouse.
There's
nobody
else.
I
There's
me
and
I
understand
the
sacrifices
that
are
involved
in
that,
but
when
I
see
the
issues
that
we're
having
with
staffing
in
our
core
city
services,
I
can,
in
good
faith,
increase
my
own
salary.
When
that
money
could
be
used.
I
So
I
think
that
there
will
be
a
time
when
the
cola
is
appropriate
for
elected
as
well.
I
don't
think
now
that
now
is
that
time
I
think
there's
other
people
in
our
city
who
need
to
be
taken
care
of,
and
we
need
to
keep
those
departments
properly
staffed.
So
we
can
uphold
our
commitment
of
of
providing
basic
core
municipal
services
that
are
taking
a
hit
most
most,
notably
as
a
result
of
pay,
and
we
can
somehow
start
to
change
that
narrative.
I
I
mean
you
know,
increasing
our
salaries
by
a
few
thousand,
each
person
I'd
rather
a
sanitation
worker,
get
a
few.
More
thousand
dollars
a
year
than
me,
and
so
I
I
think
it's
not
the
wrong
conversation
to
have,
I
think,
maybe
just
not
right
now
and
we
get
ourselves
on
the
other
side
of
some
of
these
issues
that
we've
been
faced
with
with
the
pandemic
et
cetera
and
then
revisit
this.
But
for
tonight
I'm
not
in
favor
of
it.
J
Thank
you,
chair
y'all
here.
I
just
want
to
actually
acknowledge
and
recognize
councilman
waring
for
putting
this
on
an
agenda.
It's
not
a
politically
popular
discussion
item,
so
I
will
just
provide
a
different
viewpoint.
I
need
the
money,
I'm
not
in
a
situation
where
I
could
donate
my
my
salary.
I
didn't
run
for
the
money,
but
you
know
we
talk
about
recruiting
the
best
and
brightest
here
in
charleston.
That
includes
our
council
members.
J
J
J
I
have
three
jobs
essentially,
and
it's
been
very
difficult
to
to
balance
that
now
I
hear
the
concerns
around
it's
not
politically
expedient,
or
it's
not
popular
right
now,
because
of
the
tax
issues
and
the
budget
issues
that
we
have
as
a
council.
I
get
that
100
and
I
would
not
support
this
unless
we
made
sure
that
we
increased
our
hourly
rates
for
our
public
service
workers,
our
essential
workers,
fire
police-
this
doesn't
have
to
be
an
either
or
this
should
be
an
and
we
are
part
of
the
team
of
the
city.
J
So
I
look
at
us
as
essential
workers
as
well,
and
I
think
councilman
waring
made
a
very
good
point.
The
decisions
we
make
could
swing
the
balance
of
our
budget
millions
of
dollars.
I
want
to
have
folks,
like
councilman
waring
on
my
council,
that
understand
budgets,
because
that
single
decision
this
past
year
with
cpw,
I
believe,
helped
us
bring
in
an
additional.
J
So
if
we're
talking
about
17,
000
or
25
000,
the
cost
over
the
total
year
would
be.
You
know,
couple
hundred
thousand
dollars
to
make
that
change.
Now
we
have
to
increase
the
salaries
of
our
hourlies,
our
part-time
firefighters,
police.
I
don't
think
it
needs
to
be
an
exclusive
either
or
I
think
it's
an
and
the
last
thing
again.
I
just
want
to
say
that
you
know
it's
not
politically
expedient.
J
K
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
I
will
not
be
supporting
the
amendment.
However,
I
did
want
to
just
offer
some
thoughts
on
in
line
with
some
of
the
other
discussion
that's
gone
on.
Should
the
amendment
fail
if
we
kept
our
kept
the
salary
at
17-5,
but
left
the
rest
of
the
ordinance
to
adjust
it
for
the
cola,
I
think
it
provides
a
good
incentive
for
us
as
a
council
when
we're
looking
at
raising
pay
for
employees,
we
would
get
the
same
cost
of
living
adjustment,
so
it
shows
to
your
point
councilmember
sacramento.
K
K
With
the
time
you
put
in,
I
was
prepared
to
vote
for
the
ordinance
as
presented,
because
I
do
think
it's
fair
to
catch
catch
council
up
with
the
cost
of
living
increases
that
we've
already
given
to
our
employees
and
then
set
you
on
that
par
and
myself
for
that
matter,
going
forward
that
as
we
treat
our
employees,
we
treat
ourselves
as
councilmember
brady
just
mentioned
so
I'll,
be
voting
against
the
amendment,
but
I
would
support
the
original
ordinance.
I
just
want
to
explain
that
and
be
respectful.
L
Hell,
thank
you,
mr
chairman,
and
I
think
that
there's
been
a
lot
of
great
points
raised
by
everybody
this
evening
and
I
had
the
idea
sort
of
just
sitting
up
here
that
perhaps
there's
a
way
we
could
bundle
this
package
with
our
budget.
L
In
other
words,
we
can
do
do
what
has
been
mentioned
by
several
of
my
colleagues
this
this
evening,
which
is
provide
for
our
employees
while
making
our
adjustments
at
the
same
time,
but
now
I'm
cognizant
of
the
fact
that
I
believe
this
has
to
go
into
effect
prior
to
the
election.
For
it
to
be
effective.
You
know
in
2022,
so
that
might
not
be
the
right
idea,
but
I
certainly
think
there's
been
some
good
points
raised.
L
I
tend
to
be
more
inclined
for
the
original
ordinance
as
presented
and
that's
not
to
say
that
this
job
does
not
deserve
what
councilmember
waring
suggested.
L
It
does
and
more
I
can
tell
you
this
is
a
lot
harder
job
than
I
thought
it
was
when,
when
I
signed
up
for
it
and-
and
you
know
in
in
the
fact
of
the
matter
is
because
you
know
technically
on
paper,
we're
the
legislative
body
of
the
city
of
charleston,
but
I
kind
of
feel
like
I'm
part
of
the
staff
a
lot
of
times
I
mean,
what
do
we
do
for
the
most
most
of
our
job?
It's
fielding
concerns
and
complaints
from
our
constituents,
getting
them
to
the
right
people
serving
as
a
facilitator.
L
You
know,
that's
not
what
you
know
is
in
the
job
description
of
a
legislator.
Typically,
but
that's
what
we
do.
We
do
a
lot
of
this
work
and
it's
and
it's
not
easy,
but
it's
but
it's
fulfilling
and
rewarding,
and-
and
certainly
I
you
know-
I
personally,
you
know-
don't
necessarily
you
know-
need
the
increase,
but
but
I'm
certainly
cognizant
and
respectful
of
the
folks
on
council
that
do-
and
I
think
another
thing
that
hasn't
been
mentioned-
and
this
is
by
no
means
a
reflection
of
anybody-
that's
up
for
office.
L
This
go
around
on
the
even
cycled
seats,
but
there
ain't
a
lot
of
people
running
for
these
seats
right
now
and
you
look
across
the
river
you
know
in
the
town
of
mount
pleasant.
They
got.
I
think
a
dozen
people
beaten
down
the
door,
for
I
think
four
seats
or
something
so
something
we
do
need
to.
You
know
be
cognizant
of
the
incentive
structure
here
for
folks.
L
You
know
maybe
they've
been
coming
to
too
many
of
our
meetings
and
seeing
seeing
what's
been
going
on,
but
but
be
that
as
it
may,
so
I
look.
I
think
we
gotta
increase
the
salaries
for
our
employees.
I
don't
like
seeing
40
vacancies
in
our
stormwater
department.
That
is
not
cool.
That
is
not
the
way
to
go,
but
I'm
telling
you
all
right
here,
I'm
I'm
gonna
fast
forward
to
november
and
december.
L
We're
gonna
be
talking
about
mills
again
around
here
and
we
got
to
put
our
money
where
our
mouth
is.
If
we
want
to
staff
up
this
city
the
way
it
needs
to
be,
and
we
need
to
be
honest
and
we
need
to
be-
you
know
clear
with
our
constituents
about
what
it
costs
to
receive
good
service.
If
you
want
bad
service,
you
know
you,
you
don't
pay
for
it.
L
If
you
want
to
receive
good
service,
you
got
to
pay
for
it,
so
I
think
we
got
to
do
all
the
above
and
would
would
prefer
we
we
go
with
the
ordinance
as
originally
presented
today,
thanks.
B
Before
we
put
the
put
it
to
vote,
I'm
supposed
to
be
retired,
but
when
I
became
a
city
council
member
there's,
no
such
thing
guys
where
in
what
october-
and
if
I
haven't
done,
120
or
130
meetings
already,
okay,
I
haven't
done
any
given
the
kind
of
prep
work
alone
that
it
requires
that
one
puts
in.
B
B
B
B
When
the
constituent
calls
and
says
my
ditch
needs
to
be
cleaned
today,
not
tomorrow,
when
we're
having
torrential
rains,
my
house
is
flooded.
B
I'm
saying
all
that
to
say
that,
given
the
sacrifices
that
this
body
makes
for
this
city,
twenty
five
thousand
dollars
isn't
much
are
anything
to
me
in
terms
of
the
kind
of
work,
dedication
and
service
that
we
provide
to
this
city.
If
we
were
to
work
to
rule,
I
don't
know.
If
anybody
knows
what
that
means,
all
government
people
know
what
working
the
rule
is.
B
B
B
F
F
F
F
You
have
to
go
one
time
to
bring
it
down
to
a
short
list
and
then
go
back
and
again
and
work
work
on
again.
That's
a
couple
of
hours
hours
hours,
but
a
lot
of
the
residents.
A
lot
of
people
don't
even
see
it.
They
don't
know
what's
behind
the
scenes,
but
the
council
members
are
doing
so.
We
do
a
lot,
we
don't
you
don't
get
vacation
days.
F
F
F
But
then
we
have
to
look
at
our
department
heads
too,
with
dealing
with
some
of
the
staff
that
people
are
calling
me
what
I'm
hearing
about
a
lot
of
people
are
leaving,
mr
mayor,
because
of
that
they
call
me
all
the
time
I'm
out
there
when
they
call
me
at
one
o'clock
in
the
morning,
I'm
out
there.
I
answer
the
phone,
I'm
out
there
and
they're
telling
me
what's
going
on
and
it's
a
shame.
We
have
to
really
get
into
a
lot
of
these
things
with
our
staff
also
and
follow.
F
What's
going
on
with
our
staff
and
with
our
department
heads
with
some
of
some
of
the
department
heads
that
we
have,
I
think
we
have
to
do
more,
but
even
with
the
increase,
if
we're
talking
about
it,
I
think
it's
right
now
for
the
city
of
charleston
council
members.
Let's
do
we
do
a
whole
lot
that
people
don't
know
what
we're
doing
behind
the
scenes.
F
It's
a
lot
of
work
and
I
didn't
run
for
no
money
because
of
you
getting
75
7
500.
That
was
no
money.
When
I
was
working
right
now,
you
think
of
seventeen
five
and
the
work
you're
doing,
and
you
count
the
hours
that
you
put
in
it's
not
even
a
match,
so
you're
not
really
running
for
counsel
for
the
money.
F
F
So
we
need
to
look
at
things
very
seriously
now
and
we
have
to
take
the
hit
when
we
have
to
take
the
hit,
but
we
have
young
people
want
to
come
to
the
plate
too.
Young
people
want
to
come
on
this
council
too,
but
they
always
tell
me
richard.
That's
not
nothing
for
me
to
take
on
that
little
bit
of
money,
you're
making
that's
nothing.
I
have
too
much
things
to
do
so
we
have
to
look
at
it
very
seriously.
F
D
E
B
B
F
B
J
B
B
H
B
F
H
H
H
As
note
the
amount
of
rent
increases
by
50,
I
think
after
the
second
year,
if
I
remember
that
correctly
and
we
will
move
to
have
that
adopted
by
this
committee,
the
second
one
was
a
request
for
authorization
for
the
mayor
to
execute
a
contract
for
deed
between
the
commissioners
of
public
works
and
the
city
to
purchase
56
murray
boulevard.
H
This
was
a
very
spirited
discussion
about
the
benefits
of
purchasing
this
property.
As
I
understand
it,
mr
maybe
mr
fountain
can
enlighten
us
a
little
bit
about
this,
but
the
brick
archway
tunnel
runs
right
to
this
particular
point,
and
so,
if
we
need
to
build
a
pump
house
or
to
utilize
this
property
for
drainage
improvement
or
stormwater
improvement,
this
will
provide
that
opportunity
for
us
and
I'm
going
to
need
to
call
my
fellow
committee
members
to
remind
me
about
this.
H
B
Question
drainage
fund
drainage
fund
from
the
drainage
question.
Was
there
any
discussion
with
regard
to
cpw,
giving
us
the
land
giving
we're
talking
about
so.
H
There
was
some
discussion
about
us
taking
the
land
and
doing
a
reduction
in
fees
we
collect
from
them.
There's
also
discussion
regarding
delinquent
fees
as
well,
but
I
think
this
was
at
the
end
of
the
result.
They
all
can
correct
me
if
I'm
saying
I'm
stating
this,
but
to
just
take
that
money
from
that
fund.
G
Come
from
everywhere,
thank
you,
mr
chairman.
Cpw
is
really
working
with
us
as
a
sister
brother
organization.
If
you
will
they
paid
a
good
portion
for
this
property
years
ago
and
even
in
a
way
financing
it
for
us
with
no
interest
involved,
making
it
a
pretty
easy,
hopefully
for
us
to
be
able
to
accommodate
the
purchase
of
this
and
control
of
this
property,
which
we
really
need
for
it
doesn't
matter
what
drainage
solutions
we
come
up
with
for
sea
level
rise,
be
it
a
water
plan
or
the
wall.
G
D
I'm
going
to
support
this
tonight,
but
I
I
do
get
concerned
when
we
get
a
little
quote,
I'm
going
to
support
this
tonight,
but
I
do
get
concerned
when
we
use
drainage
fund
money
on
the
peninsula,
because
there
are
so
many
different
funding
sources.
I
understand
if
this
was
the
only
last
resort,
but
you
know
we
constantly
talk
about
how
in
west
asia
we
have
so
few
ways
to
improve
drainage
and
we
we
have
to
go
into
that
drainage
fund.
H
I'll
move
on
to
item
number
c
item
c
was
also
approved
unanimously,
as
a
resolution
to
support
the
charleston
county
green
belt
program,
application
by
the
low
country,
land
trust
with
the
charleston
county
aviation
authority
regarding
about
94
94
acres
of
land,
known
as
oakville,
to
be
served
as
a
conservation
easement.
H
This
is
just
a
resolution
to
get
the
ball
rolling
on
using
those
green
fines
for
this
easement.
That
also
was
approved
unanimously
and
finally,
we
had
approved
unanimously
the
annex
asian
application
for
1819
been
grass
court
on
james
island
and
district
chair.
I
moved
mr
chairman
at
items
a
b
c
and
d.
K
It's
a
great
thing
to
preserve
from
development
portions
of
that
property
that
are
low-lying.
We
know,
don't
have
any
business
being
built
on,
and
this
helps
us
use
a
natural
feature
conserved
for
storm
water
and
know
that
there's
not
going
to
be
taxpayer
money
being
spent
down
the
line
to
buy
out
houses
or
anything
like
that.
So
this
is
a
great
use
of
support
for
the
greenbelt
money,
and
I
want
to
thank
everybody
that
was
involved.