►
Description
This summit, co-hosted by the City of Cupertino, is a "how-to" event for activists and local government agencies for developing policies that aim at preventing plastics from entering the environment. In this sixth installment, Jack Macy of the City of San Francisco promotes compostable and biodegradeable food ware and Mariam Gordon of Clean Water Action talks about sustainable packaging. Recorded February 23, 2011. (50 min.)
A
We
have
a
couple
speakers
to
talk
more
about
eps
alternatives
and
the
first
is
Jack
may
see
from
the
City
and
County
of
San.
Francisco
and
Jack
is
currently
the
commercial
zero-waste
coordinator
for
the
City
and
County
of
San
Francisco
jack
has
24
years
experience
implementing
policy
and
programs
for
composting
recycling
and
waste
management
at
the
US
there's
a
type
over
here
at
the
US
state
and
local
level.
A
Prior
to
his
current
position,
he
was
the
city's
organics
recycling
coordinator,
where
he
helped
initiate
and
implement
the
USS
first
large-scale
urban,
commercial
and
residential
food
composting
program
and
is
currently
on
the
board
of
the
California
organics
recycling,
Council
Jack,
assisted
in
the
implementation
of
local
legislation
requiring
compostable
and
recyclable
food
service.
We're
in
the
ban
of
supermarket
plastic
carryout
bags
in
lieu
of
Ruth's,
reusable
compostable
or
recycled
content
paper.
B
Well,
everybody
it's
great
to
be
here,
appreciate
the
opportunity
to
learn.
What's
going
on
and
Claude
all
the
is
exciting
to
hear
how
many
of
you
are
pursuing
plastic
bag
bans
and
EPS
bands
and
how
far
we've
come
in
just
the
last
last
few
years.
Actually,
I
wanted
to
say
that
you
know
our
plastic
bag.
Man
has
been
a
model,
but
people
have
gone
beyond
well
beyond
that
and
we
actually
have
a
proposed
ordinance
to
expand
ours
beyond
the
supermarkets
and
pharmacy
chains
to
all
retailers
and
add
a
10-cent
charge.
B
B
B
Alright,
what
I
want
to
say
is
this
is
the
this.
Is
the
outreach
piece
that
we
did
it
originally?
This
is
deluxe
the
latest
version
of
it,
but
our
band
that
went
into
effect
in
june,
two
thousand
seven
was
targeted
to
all
food
vendors.
It
was
for
food
that
was
prepared
in
San
Francisco
and
we
have
a
pretty
large
food
sector.
So
we
had.
B
We
came
up
with
a
list
of
over
4,500
food
establishments-
restaurants,
cafes,
so
I
guess
is
about
ten
times
the
size
of
Fremont's
food
sector,
and
it
was
telling
how
are
you
going
to
manage
how
we're
going
to
manage
this?
Basically,
what
we
did
is
we
did
a
mailing
to
everybody
and
kind
of
looking
at
oaklands
model
because
they
had
done
something
similar.
They
had
done
a
Food
Fair
and
we
thought
no,
that's
good,
and
you
know
we
thought
how
do
we
really
want
to
control
what
food
vendors
restaurants
by
so
who
they
buy
from?
B
Will
they
buy
from
distributors
whether
it's
a
tail
just
a
distributor
like
a
restaurant
Depot
or
whether
it's
one
of
the
many
vendors?
So
what
we
did
is
actually
went
and
worked
with
them
and
are
basically
what
our
ordinance
does.
Is
it
banned
expanded
polystyrene,
just
the
expanded
part,
there's
a
good
argument
for
both,
but
with
our
heads,
ours
had
two
components:
one
was
a
straight
out
of
band,
no
analyst
or
ifs,
and
then
the
other
part
was.
B
It
must
be
compostable
or
recyclable,
and
we
did
have
a
food
collection
program
and
I
think
you
should
have
one
or
should
be
in
the
process
of
implementing
one
if
you're
going
to
require
compostable.
Otherwise
you
know
it
could
up
in
the
landfill
there's
issues
with
that.
So
we
basically
it
was
compostable
recyclable.
But
at
the
time
back
in
two
thousand
seven,
we
weren't
accepting
rigid
polystyrene
containers,
cups
or
containers
or
PE
tea
cups
and
containers.
B
So,
in
effect,
at
the
time
we
were
banning
all
polystyrene,
but
then
it
was
you
know
if
we
ended
up
accepting
that
for
recycling,
which
we
do
now
and
have
for
a
couple
years.
It
narrows
it
to
just
expanded.
So
we
do
basically
now
our
outreach
was
sending
a
mailing
to
everybody,
and
in
that
mainly
we
told
about
the
ordinance
and
then
we
said
we
have
these
food
where
ver
fairs
that
we
want
you
to
come
to
and
what
we
did
is
we
worked
with
the
distributors
to
make
sure
they
understood
what
was
recyclable.
B
What
was
compostable
and
we
invited
them
to
come
to
the
fairs
and
showcase
their
wares,
but
we
wanted
to
make
sure
that
they
were
showcasing
the
right
stuff,
and
so
we
really
worked
hard
on
that
quality
control
and
make
sure
they
understood
and
if
they
understood
then,
then
the
restaurants
are
not
going
to
Mississippi
buying
them
right
the
wrong
thing.
Hopefully
it's
challenging
when
they're
like
a
restaurant
depot
at
the
time
where
they
serviced
more
than
San
Francisco,
so
they
have
the
right
products
and
then
the
wrong
products.
B
So,
but
that
strategy
actually
worked
pretty
well,
the
outreach
we
did.
Some
door-to-door
we
ended
up
having
oh,
is
at
least
five
food
where
events
around
the
city
with
several
hundred
I
think
we
ended
up
figuring.
It
was
maybe
around
ten
percent
of
the
restaurants
at
ten,
which
is
not
a
big
percent,
but
it
was
those
restaurants
that
were
particularly
interested
and
concerned,
and
then
those
vendors
were
now
well
educated,
having
worked
with
them
and
gone
to
those
pairs,
so
the
biggest
part
of
implementing
this
has
been
sort
of
twofold.
B
One
is
communicating
this
to
the
restaurants
and
the
food
vendors,
not
just
that
in
traditional
outreach,
but
we
have
actually
ended
up
going
door-to-door
to
over
4,000
restaurants.
Now
I
didn't
do
that,
because
that
would
be
pretty
expensive
to
have
staff.
We
were
actually
able
to
get
a
number
of
volunteers
to
become
styro
Buster's.
B
You
know
big
shiny,
you
know
techno
I,
we
didn't
actually
have
the
you
know
the
sheriff
badge,
but
they
they
went
out
there.
It
was
really
quite
simple:
they
had
a
checklist
and
they
would
go
in
and
they
would
look
around
and
they
couldn't
see
anything
they
might
ask.
You
know
what
are
you
using
for
take
out
where
and
if
they're,
if
they
were
using
any
styrofoam,
they
said
well,
you're
not
allowed
to.
This
is
a
courtesy
visit.
B
Our
ordinance
rights
in
the
city
administrators
office,
and
we
actually
set
up
a
system
where
restaurants
would
get
food
vendors
would
get
a
warning
and
then
we
would
make
sure
that
they
stopped
using
it
and
if
not,
they
actually
got
citations.
We've
actually
had
a
few
hundred
to
300
finds
going
out
and
that
this
whole
process
of
sort
of
doing
that
enforcement.
B
B
Will
we
claim
as
a
ninety-eight
percent
compliance
rate
based
on
the
over
4,000
revisited,
so
the
key
challenge
with
beyond
sort
of
all
that
outreach
has
been
to
determine
what
is
really
acceptable
or
not
psycho
bulb,
you
know,
is
more
straightforward,
although
that's
expanded,
the
compostable
has
some
issues,
so
one,
of
course,
is
the
any
kind
of
paper
or
plant
fiber
material.
That
is
generally
straightforward,
although
we
do
accept
a
sort
of
a
very
thin
poly
coating.
B
You
know
in
terms
of
paper
cups
from
certain
paper
containers,
so
we
actually
that
gives
us
a
lot
of
flexibility.
What
we
like
to
say
is
almost
anything
out
there.
That
is
not
at
this
point,
and
this
is
the
truth.
Almost
anything
out.
That's
out
there,
that's
not
styrofoam
is
acceptable,
so
you
have
a
lot
of
options
and
the
paper
or
plant
fiber
has
worked
in
the
composting
process.
This
is
all
based
on
what
is
acceptable
in
our
composting
program
in
a
recycling
program
and
that
can
vary
over
time.
B
So
that's
that's
why
it's
important
to
ordinance
to
sort
of
say
you
know
what
is
currently
acceptable
and
then
the
city
is
going
to
maintain
that
reference
point
on
a
website
or
something
so
paper
and
plant
fiber
generally
is
straightforward.
What
I
like
is
sort
of
this
b'gosh,
the
sugar
cane?
It's
a
cig
sugar
cane
waste
as
a
pretty
ecological,
low
footprint
type
product
compost
well,
and
it
has
some
good
properties
in
terms
of
heat
retention.
B
We
do
find
out
that
the
poly
coated
paper,
probably
overall,
has
performed
the
best
in
terms
of
replacing
styrofoam,
particularly
in
terms
of
you
know,
keeping
the
boys
chur
barrier,
the
styrofoam
poly.
The
EPS
has
its
advantage
of
being
one.
What
cheapest
thing
out
there
and
to
you
know
it
does
perform
well
in
terms
of
insulation,
so
you've
got
to
got
that
challenge
to
look
at
what
the
use
is
and
be
able
to
provide
a
number
of
alternatives.
B
B
You
know
ASTM
d
5338.
Well,
that's
not
the
same,
even
though
it's
part
of
you
know
this
DD
6400
standard
has
sets
of
a
set
of
three
different
tests.
Biodegradation
is
one
disintegration.
Is
another
and
phytotoxicity
is
another,
so
it's
going
to
be
d
6400,
nothing
else.
Well,
how
do
you
know
they
meet
that?
Well,
they
can
show
you
a
lot
of
lab
data
and
get
pretty
confusing.
You
don't
even
know
if
a
lab
follow
the
right
stuff
so
having
it
actually
independently
certified
by
a
third-party
agency.
B
B
The
word
compostable
and
state
law
now
backs
it
up,
but
for
us
it's
not
just
ensuring
that
they
meet
that
standard,
but
it's
actually
being
able
to
identify
the
difference
between
compostable
and
non
compostable.
So
we've
struggled
with
the
whole
labeling
issue
on
that,
and
we
find
that
just
the
embossing
of
the
word
compulsive
on
the
bottom
of
a
cup
where
you
have
to
kind
of
hold
that
cup
up
the
right
light
catch
it
just
right.
B
You
might
see
it
says:
compostable
not
going
to
work
very
well
for
a
user
even
harder
for
the
collector
and
even
harder
for
the
processor
that
might
have
a
conveyor
belt
of
stuff
going
across
and
they
can't
grab
ilysm.
So
the
green
labeling
that
you're
seeing
on
cups,
we
actually
help
develop
that
about
six
years
ago,
with
the
largest
manufacturer,
compostable
cups
and
trying
to
get
everybody
to
use
it
and
most
the
time
is
we're
seeing
that's
out
there,
but
we
still
see
cups
and
so
forth.
B
Without
that,
and
it's
just
it's
unnecessary,
it
makes
it
a
lot
harder
to
deal
with
so
identification
set
is
key,
and
you
know
having
stuff
that
you
see
here
on
the
left
of
the
screen
where
it
could
be
p
ET,
it
could
be
polystyrene,
it
could
be,
some
other
could
be
polypropylene
without
good
labeling.
It's
really
hard.
We've
got
good
labeling
options
for
bags
when
we
actually
go
to
the
state
law
cups.
We
have
readily
available
opportunity
to
print
that
going
beyond
that
in
terms
of
clamshells
it's
hard.
B
So
this
is
a
real,
I
think,
disadvantage
on
a
practical
level
on
the
collection
and
processing,
as
well
as
the
public
in
when
you've
got
when
you
can't
do
effective
labeling,
and
at
this
point
you
know
if
we
see
a
container
that
says
compostable
on
it
and
then
with
the
PLA
polylactic
acid
from
nature
works.
We
know.
That's
all
good,
that's
good,
but
again
it's
hard
to
identify
on
a
collection
and
processing
end
if
it's
just
a
clear
embossing.
B
So
we
keep
pushing
that
but
like
the
way
it's
labeled
on
the
left,
do
you
like
the
way
it's
labeled
here
on
the
right
and
you'll
see?
One
of
the
examples
is
there's
even
a
sticker,
so
we
try
to
get
one
of
the
biggest
manufacturers
are
compostable,
the
PLA
clam
shells
to
put
stickers
and
all
that
stuff
and
they
even
came
up
with
a
design,
but
then
to
get
the
vendors
to
pay
that
a
little
extra,
maybe
penny
or
two
is
tough.
B
So
we've
had
this
sort
of
journey
now
for
years
dealing
with
the
labeling
identifying
and
it's
still
a
challenge,
and
some
of
you
may
have
been
at
the
u.s.
composting
council
conference
just
a
few
weeks
ago
in
San,
Jose,
curious,
who's,
I
know
a
couple
people
there
Richard
was
there.
So
there
was
a
hole
on
that
Wednesday.
B
There
was
a
whole
day,
long
symposium
on
compostable
plastics
and
they're
all
these
issues
and
concerns
and
challenges,
particularly
from
the
composters
perspective,
their
accomplices
out
there
that
just
don't
want
this
stuff,
whether
it's
met
the
certification
or
not,
or
they
don't
necessarily
trust
the
ASTM
standard
because
they
read
the
standard
and
they
see
it
takes
180
days
and
they're
like
oh,
our
composting
process
takes
60
45.
They
might
not
understand
the
science
behind
it.
That
shows
that
it
really
does
fully
biodegrade
and
the
issue
is
more
that
doesn't
disintegrate
fast
enough.
B
So
there's
a
standards
issue.
There's
the
organic
certification
issue,
NOP
standards
from
the
LAUSD
a
in
DC.
Technically,
this
stuff
is
considered
synthetic
and
it's
not
allowed
so
that's
a
whole
issue
and
then
the
labeling
identification
and
that's
all
to
say
that
it's
just
not
an
easy
slam.
Dunk!
Oh
it's
composable,
plastic,
no
problem
it'll
end
up
in
the
compost
facility
and
no
concern.
B
So
this
is
something
to
be
aware
of,
and
this
is
really
why,
in
some
cases
it's
almost
if
you
can
have
a
clear
if
it's
a
clear
cup
that
has
to
be
used,
it
has
to
be
a
clear
cut
in
our
case
because
we're
recycling
the
clear,
p,
ET
and
polystyrene
it's
almost
easier
to
have
that
clear
cup
going
to
recycling.
It's
clean
enough
to
go
for
the
markets,
although
it
ends
up
course
going
to
Asia.
B
But
you
know,
as
far
as
we
know
it's
getting
recycled
and
then
you
know
cutlery
well
that
doesn't
really
get
recovered
off
the
murph
line.
So
if
you,
if
it's
compostable
cutlery-
and
it
goes
the
compost
facility-
well,
you
get
composted,
but
is
it
really
compostable?
One
of
the
most
common
use
countries
out
there
for
last
few
years
has
been
Taylor.
Where
guess
what
that's
got?
Maybe
30
percent
polypropylene
is
that
compostable
absolutely
no
way
and
the
history
with
the
Taylor
company
can't
trust
them.
B
So
they
just
they
just
refuse
to
go
through
the
certification
process.
They
just
say
trust.
Us
you've
come
up
with
tato,
where
D
6400
to
say
that
it
means
that
D
6400.
Well,
that
sounds
great.
Let
me
see
the
let
me
see
the
tests
that
show
that
you've
me
at
the
complete
d,
6
or
400.
Well,
just
you
know
we
don't
want
to
have
to
pay
for
all
of
that.
Just
trust
us
that
it
does
come
on
so
anyway.
B
That's
the
challenge
with
cutlery
and
I
think
you
know
there
is
the
good
news
is
that
there
is
more
more
cutlery
that
performs
well,
because
there's
been
issues
with
that
and
is
fully
compostable
an
example
of
that
is
the
stuff
from
worldcentric.
That's
out
on
the
table
out
there,
so
we're
actually
seeing
progress
now
with
products
performing
better
more
more
certification.
The
list
of
certified
compostable
products
just
keeps
getting
longer
and
longer,
as
well
as
our
lists
of
stuff,
and
we
used
to
list
all
these
brand
names
and
they
became
really
unwieldy.
B
If
you're
doing
a
food
collection
program,
so
the
opportunity
is
great
to
divert
the
material,
but
we've
got
to
watch
out
with
some
of
the
challenging
issues
on
the
on
the
food
we're
side.
Clearly,
if
it's,
if
it's
food
where
and
it's
got
food
contaminated
and
makes
sense
for
it
to
be
compostable,
because
it's
hard
for
that
stuff
to
be
clean
or
psycho
blend,
and
that
basically
we
have
the
fiber
opportunities.
And
then
we
have
the
composure
of
plastic
opportunities
and
challenges.
B
So
we
feel,
like
we've
come
a
long
way
and
and
this
ordinance
is
working
really
well
for
us.
The
next
step,
when
we
think
about
a
PPS
band,
is
we've
got
a
band
at
the
food
service
level?
Well,
why
not
ban
it
for
anybody
who's
buying
products
in
the
city,
because
you
can
still
go
residents
can
go
to
a
supermarket,
they
could
go
to
costco
and
they
could
buy
their
styrofoam
cups
and
it
can
end
up
in
their
black
bin.
B
A
C
Okay,
well,
you
know,
if
we're
talking
about
we
talking
about
banning
polystyrene
food,
where
I
guess
a
major
question
is
what
are
the
alternatives
that
would
be
acceptable.
Should
we
specify
acceptable
alternatives
in
these
local
and
state
policies,
and
so
I've
been
thinking
about
that
for
quite
some
time
and
I
want
to
share
some
of
those
thoughts.
So
what
are
the
alternatives?
Well,
there's
non
foam,
poly
styrene,
there's
polyethylene,
there's
paper
and
molded
fiber
bio-based
compostable
plastics,
which
we've
been
just
hearing
about.
Aluminum
glass,
reusable
end.
C
Let's
not
forget
the
reusable
ceramic
glass
and
plastic
containers,
so
you
know
which
is
best
and
how
do
we
know
well
the
coin?
The
answer
is
that
it
depends.
It
depends
on
what
benefit
you
want.
So
what
are
you
trying
to
do?
Are
you?
What
problem
are
you
trying
to
solve?
Are
you
trying
to
solve
the
litter
and
marine
debris
problem,
in
which
case
you
really
need
to
just
focus
on
the
phone,
because
that's
the
stuff
that's
easily
this
lightweight
and
it
breaks
down
into
little
pieces
and
it's
easily
dispersed.
C
But
how
you
are
the
answers
really
depends
on
a
couple
of
things.
One
is
what
are
the
what's:
the
research
behind
who's
funding,
the
research
behind
answering
those
questions
you
know
so
sustainable
packaging
is
a
whole
field.
That's
been
going
bang
busters
in
the
last
few
years
and
in
the
absence
of
Government
standards
for
defining
what
is
a
sustainable
package,
the
industry
has
really
stepped
up
to
the
plate.
C
The
consumer
products
industry
that
has
to
choose
the
packages
for
their
products
as
well
as
the
packagers
and
they're
doing
this,
because
there
are
a
whole
bunch
of
drivers.
There's
the
extended
producer
responsibility
for
packaging
laws
that
are
33
countries
have
required,
take
back
of
packaging
waste
and
there's
also
the
whole
movement
for
green
chemistry
and
green
design.
C
So
responding
to
to
regulatory
pressure
and
consumer
pressure,
the
industry
has
started
to
both
define
not
started
to,
but
is
well
on
the
way
to
defining
sustainable
packaging
and
also
creating
the
research
and
the
metrics
behind
answering
those
questions.
So
there's
an
array
of
definitions
and
tools
for
what's
a
sustainable
packaging
in
the
United
States
I
would
say
that
the
biggest
sustainable
packaging
program
or
definition
comes
from
the
sustainable
packaging
coalition.
C
They
are
primarily
industry,
a
very
large
industry
group
that
emerged
from
the
green
blue
project
of
the
mcdonough
Cradle
to
Cradle
group
and
then
there's
also
others
around
the
world.
There's
a
the
unep
sustainable
packaging
program.
Some
companies
like
SC
Johnson
company,
has
their
own
set
of
metrics.
Walmart
has
developed
a
sustainable
packaging
scorecard
in
Australia.
C
So
I'm
not
going
to
go
through
every
single
one
of
those,
but
just
to
say
that
the
people
who
are
defining
sustainable
packaging
is
that
are
the
private
sector,
mostly
retailers,
brant
and
brand
owners,
who
feel
that
they
have
to
act
more
quickly
and
with
more
positive
results
than
waiting
around
for
governments
to
take
to
take
action,
and
they
also
have
a
very
strong
interest
in
controlling
the
outcome
of
what
the
definition
of
what
is
a
sustainable
package.
Now:
here's
who
is
the
sustainable
packaging
coalition?
C
Now
you
can't
read
that,
but
it's
all
industry,
except
I've,
highlighted
just
the
few
that
are
not
industry
groups,
Michigan,
State,
University
School
of
packaging,
but
they
receive
their
funding
from
Dow
Chemical
and
then
there's
a
the
Rochester
Institute
of
Technology,
not
sure
what
industry
funds
them.
But
most
of
the
universe,
academic
institutions
are
funded
by
the
chemical
in
the
plastics
industry.
At
this
point,
there's
our
own
State
Department
of
resource
and
our
own
calories
cycle
and
I.
Think
somewhere
in
here
is
the
EPA
and
stop
waste
and
then
there's
the
Western
Michigan
University.
C
C
I
think
if
you
were
really
interested
in
finding
out
about
sustainable
packaging
and
and
looking
at
an
alternative
perspective,
you
might
take
a
look
at
clean
production
actions.
Biz
NGO
working
group
on
sustainable
plastics
just
wanted
to
throw
that
out
there
and
they
are
a
specific
labor
project.
That's
specifically
looking
at
biomaterials
and
China
develop
some
other
standards
for
what
is
a
sustainable,
biomaterial
and
think
from
participating
in
that
working
group.
We're
seeing
it's
not
so
easy,
but
there
are
all
kinds
of
different
approaches
to
evaluating.
C
What's
a
sustainable
package,
there
are
design
guidelines
for
designers
of
packaging.
There
are
regulations,
there
are
score
cards
issued
by
companies
like
Walmart
and
the
SC
Johnson
company,
where,
if
you
are
a
retailer
and
you
want
to
be
able
to
sell
through
I
mean
if
you're
a
consumer
product
manufacturing,
you
want
to
sell
through
one
of
these
giant
retailers,
you
have
to
go
through
their
scorecard
and
actually
your
package
has
to
score
adequately,
but
at
the
base
of
almost
all
of
the
metrics
there
are
lifecycle,
analysis
tools
and
software
and
there's
just
a
whole
bunch.
C
Is
the
walmart
scorecard
and
the
sustainable
packaging
coalition's
compass
tool?
That's
in
the
United
States
in
Europe,
there's,
as
I
said,
the
global
packaging
project
which
comes
from
europe
n.
Now
there
are
a
lot
of
issues
to
consider
in
evaluating
these
lifecycle
analysis
tools.
Well,
if
you
want
to
look
at
a
life
cycle
analysis
that
compares
say
a
paper
plate
to
a
polystyrene
plate,
you
have
to
find
out
what
assumptions
went
into
that
life
cycle
analysis.
Did
it
look
at
the
life
cycle
of
that
product
from
cradle
to
gate?
C
In
other
words,
from
extraction
of
the
resources
till
the
product
was
complete
in
the
manufacturing
state.
Did
it
look
at
it
from
cradle
to
grave,
which
would
be
from,
as
you
all
know,
from
the
extraction
of
all
the
resources
to
manufacture
through
the
manufacturing
and
into
disposal,
or
do
they
look
at
it
from
cradle
to
cradle,
which
looks
at
it
from
the
extraction
of
resources
all
the
way
to
the
end,
use
and
back
to
its
being
remanufactured
into
something?
C
Hopefully
beneficial,
so
they're
all
they're,
all
different
kinds
of
LCAs,
and
they
they
look
at
different
phases,
and
you
know
you
might
want
to
find
you
know
consider
whether
it
the
if
you're
looking
at
a
package
LCA.
Did
it
look
at
all
the
additives,
all
the
chemical
additives
that
were
in
that
package,
or
did
it
only
consider
the
base
materials
so
there's
just
like
a
whole
lot
of
complicated
stuff
that
goes
into
figuring
out
what
LCAs
to
rely
on
and
and
then
also
as
the
industry
likes
to
point
out.
C
We
also
have
to
look
not
just
at
the
package,
but
the
influence
of
the
package
on
the
contents
and
how
well
five
minutes.
Okay.
So
mostly
my
point
is
that
it
boils
down
to
life
cycle
analysis.
All
the
metrics
and
scorecards
rely
on
it
and
they're
only
as
good
as
the
data
input
and
there's
incredible
variability
in
the
results,
depending
on
these
data
inputs,
I'm
going
to
skip
to
well.
C
Here's
an
example:
there's
a
there
was
a
life
cycle,
analysis
of
a
glass
versus
a
plastic
baby
food
jar
done
by
Nestle's
for
three
markets,
France,
Spain
and
Germany
it
looked
at.
It
was
a
cradle
to
grave
and
it
analysis,
and
it
concluded
that
the
plastic
jar
was
slightly
preferable
to
glass.
But
there
were
many
assumptions
that
went
into
that
life
cycle
analysis.
The
energy
used
was
based
on
the
the
natural
gas
grid
of
the
EU,
but
not
necessarily
specific
to
any
one
of
these
particular
countries.
C
The
transportation
impacts
were
you
know,
can
be
it
can
very,
very
much
from
one
country
to
another,
depending
on
the
load
requirements
for
trucks
transporting
goods
on
highways
in
each
country,
then
there's
the
distribution
distance,
which
can
vary
greatly
and
the
packaging
collection
rates
that
go
in
for
recovery
of
packaging
and
what
about
the
efficiency
of
the
incinerators
that
might
be
used
to
treat
the
waste
in
these
countries?
Those
are
very
variable
and
the
recyclability
of
the
multi-layer
polypropylene
cup
can
also
be
very,
very
variable.
So
the
whatever
assumptions
went
into
this,
they
probably
weren't.
C
And
lastly,
there
was
be
pet,
which
is
a
petroleum,
hybrid,
bio
and
petroleum
biopolymer,
so
12
different
types
of
plastics
and
they
came
up
with
this
LCA
assessment
life
cycle
assessment.
Now,
if
you
take
a
look
at
the
green,
the
dark,
green
and
the
light
green
lines,
those
represent
how
pla
the
two
different
PLA
s,
which
is
corn-based
plastic,
rank
in
terms
of
their
green
design.
They
rank
very
low
in
terms
of
their
fossil
fuel
use
and
global
warming
potential,
but
they
rank
very
high
in
terms
of
their
carson
as
carcinogens.
C
In
terms
of
ecotoxicity
and
eutrophication,
and
what
that
tells
us
is
that
you
know,
because
this
is
a
corn
and
it's
and
it's
a
major
AG
industry,
there's
a
lot
of
fertilizer
used
pesticide
use
and
land
use,
impacts
that
result
from
all
this
agricultural
production,
and
so
we
often
assume
that
bio-based
materials,
bio-based
plastics
are
better
because
they're
made
from
renewable
resources,
but
I
think.
The
point
here
is
that,
just
because
you're
using
a
renewable
resource
like
corn,
instead
of
a
non-renewable
resource
like
petroleum,
it's
not
necessary
lee
annette
environmental
benefit.
C
C
If
you
look
at
the
very
light
gray
line
at
the
end,
that's
polypropylene
and
it
seems
to
have
of
all
of
them
some
of
the
lowest
impacts,
but
remember
that
this
is.
This
is
just
a
cradle
to
gate
life
cycle
analysis.
So
it
did
not
consider
the
impact
of
disposal
and
recycling
and
polypropylene
is
not
very
recyclable.
C
C
What
what
is
a
sustainable
package-
and
it
really
has
to
do
with
what
kinds
of
environmental
benefits
you're
looking
for
and
what
are
the
inputs
in
terms
of
the
information
with
bioplastics
I,
just
want
to
say
that
I
have
always
felt
that
the
jury
is
out
on
whether
this
is
a
good
way
if
we
should
be
moving
all
of
our
packaging
waste
in
a
thirty
percent
of
our
municipal,
solid
waste
being
packaging
waste.
Whether
we
should
make
this
all
based
on
bio,
renew,
renewable
resource
materials.
C
I
think
that
there
are
questions
like
the
impact
of
bio-based
materials
on
recycling
and
the
toxicity.
We
don't
know
you
know
with
the
chemical
additives
in
those
plastics,
we
don't
know
what
happens
to
the
plants
that
are
grown
in
soils
that
have
all
those
chemical
additives
being
added
to
them.
So
are
you
confused
about
what
is
the
most
sustainable
package
and
what
are
the
best
alternatives?
C
They
are
all
developing
these
lifecycle,
analysis
tools
and
metrics,
and
what
they
are
telling
us
is
that
we
have
to
be
looking
at
the
whole
prod
at
the
package
and
the
product,
and
if
we
want
to
avoid
product
loss
like
packaged
fruits
and
vegetables
being
wasted,
then
we
basically
need
to
use
more
packaging
and
that's
how
they
are
beginning
to
define
sustainable
packaging
and
they're,
also
telling
us
that
we
that
flexible
packaging.
This
is
the
new
term
for
plastics,
flexible
packaging.
C
A
lot
of
their
life
cycle
analyses
funded
by
plastic,
resin
manufacturers
are
showing
that
you
know
plastic
is
the
sustainable.
Is
the
sustainable
package
I'm
not
convinced
and
I?
Think
it's
really
suspect.
When
you
know
billions,
millions
or
billions
of
dollars
are
being
spent
by
the
industry
on
on
these
tools
and
lifecycle
analyses.
C
But
what
I
do
know
is
that
prevention
and
reuse
makes
the
most
sense,
because
you
know
it
avoids
all
those
lifecycle
impacts.
A
ceramic
mug
used
a
thousand
times
requires
three
pounds
of
material
inputs
and
creates
four
point:
seven
pounds
of
solid
waste,
while
in
equivalent
1000
polystyrene,
disposable
cups,
uses
only
uses
12
pounds
of
material
inputs
and
creates
eight
point:
seven
pounds
of
paulista
of
solid
waste,
and
the
same
can
be
said
for
steel,
a
steel
spoon
versus
a
polypropylene
spoon,
a
lot,
let
fewer
impacts
with
the
reusable
items.
C
So
I
want
to
encourage
you
when
you're
thinking
about
what
are
the
appropriate
alternatives,
not
to
jump
to
the
conclusion
that
to
ask
questions
about
bio-based
materials
and
not
to
assume
that
renewable
resources
are
better,
is
really
worth
investigating
what
the
impacts
are
and
to
consider.
Actually,
focusing
your
efforts
on
promoting
reusable
products.
Thank
you.
D
Or
Jack
about
about
what
san
Francisco's
looking
at
you
mentioned,
possibly
restricting
banning
the
sale
of
styrofoam
products
in
stores.
If
I
heard
you
right
and
then
also,
if
you
could
say
where
you
are
on
that,
how
likely
you
think
that
is
to
happen
in
San
Francisco
and
how
soon
and
then
how
about
a
poly,
expanded,
polystyrene
any
thing
you're
considering
doing
there.
B
Yeah
we
had,
we
were
kind
of
moving
forward
with
the
previa
with
when
mayor
gavin
newsom
was
still
there
and
there's
been
a
change,
although
I
think
merely
would
be
supportive.
So
we
would
like
to
expand
the
scope
of
that
EPS
ban
tool.
You
know
all
all
sales
in
the
city
and
not
just
to
retail,
not
just
vendor
use,
and
you
know
for
us,
it's
it's
the
end
of
life.
B
It's
really
end
of
life
impacts,
although
I
think
that
there
is,
you
know,
toxic
life
cycle
is
another
argument,
but
then
you
could
say
well
Richard
polystyrene.
That
has
a
lot
more
polystyrene.
It
should
be
included,
but
it's
easy
for
us
to
say
it's
got
bad
end
of
life
impacts
and
there's
it's
not
recoverable
and
our
composting
recycling
programs.
So
that's
why
you
know
we're
keeping
it
to
just
be
PS
and
I
think
did
I
answer
your
both
questions.
B
It's
the
biggest
problem
I've
seen
with
our
band,
is
that
it
the
loophole
around
the
language
for
reusable
bags.
Where
this
two
and
a
quarter
mil
durable
plastic.
You
basically
had
plastic
companies
like
rope
class,
come
out
and
say
well
here,
so
two
and
a
quarter
mil
bag.
You
know
what
it
turns
out.
It's
only
about
five
cents,
that's
cheaper
than
paper.
B
So
suddenly,
these
stores
will
say
well
then
we'll
use
that
instead
of
paper
and
we're
actually
able
to
you,
know
walgreens
when
it
when
the
ban
went
into
effect
for
pharmacy
chains
after
the
supermarket's,
they
came
out
with
those
reusable
bags
and
they
use
a
lot
like
80
million
bags
years.
We
actually
got
them
to
change
it
because
we
say
well
we're
going
to
change
that.
B
So
why
don't
you
be
ahead
of
the
game
and
really
be
green,
but
it
was
harder
to
change
that,
because
once
the
plastics
industry
took
they're
suing
strategy,
we
were
a
little
reluctant
just
to
open
up
the
ordinates,
but
we
ended
up
doing
a
regulatory
change
that
we
saw.
We
could
do
to
Titanus
the
definition,
but
we're
still
having
it
still
problematic.
We
think
the
best
solution
is:
if
you're
going
to
put
a
charge
on
bags,
there
should
be
a
charge
on
any
bag.
B
B
You
know
nothing
specific
I
mean
you
know,
that's
a
possibility.
You
know,
part
of
taking
these
strategies
is
identified
that
there's
readily
available
options
out
there
and
there's
many
options
to
start
from
food
where
there
are
options
to
the
biggest
problem
with
styrofoam
packaging.
Is
that
if
the
legal
authority
we
have
in
the
city,
as
we
can
say,
you
know,
city
businesses
can't
provide
or
sell,
but
you've
got
all
that
most
of
the
styrofoam
packaging
is
coming
from.
B
E
E
Of
my
mouth
I
Jack
you,
you
went
into
some
description
about
the
need
for
compostable
packaging
to
have
a
green
ink
on
it
or
some
form.
But
I
was
wondering
in
a
curbside
collection
system.
I,
our
green
waste
isn't
pre-sorted,
and
just
if
it
was
a
non
compostable
package,
it
would
be
screened
out
at
the
end
of
the
process.
After
has
been
composted,
so
I'm
wondering
what
the
value
is
of
requiring
the
green
label.
If
it's
going
to
be
accepted
at
the
curb
in
a
mixed
collection
system,
yeah.
B
Well,
I
think
there's
several
advantages,
one
for
the
consumer.
It
helps
them
see
that
that's
compostable,
because
otherwise
it
looks
similar.
They
have
to
then
look
in
the
bottom
and
they
have
to
understand
that
any
number
seven
PLA
is
ok,
but
at
number
seven
non.
You
know
it's
I,
think
there's
a
lot
of
confusion
out
there.
So
I
think
it
helps
the
consumer
and
it's
easy
to
say.
Then
it
has
to
be
labeled
compostable
with
the
green
stripe,
the
collector.
B
They
see
plastics
and
the
compost
hook
and
assume
it's
contamination
and
they
may
tag
it
or
not
pick
it
up
and
then
the
processor
most
compost
facility.
They
don't
want
regular
plastic
going
in
because
they
pre
grind
the
material.
So
then
you're
shattering
the
plastic
and
even
with
the
screening
at
the
end,
it's
it's
hard
to
effectively
remove
all
that
rigid
plastic
out
so
most
composters
that
take
that
kind
of
feedstock
of
food
are
going
to
try
to
do
at
least
some
pre
screening
and
even
sorting.
F
F
So
let's
say
we
do
all
these
bands
and
we
tell
special
events
and
businesses
that
you
can
only
use
now
compostable
food
service
where,
because
there's
such
variability
in
what
the
compostable
food
service
where
is
made
of-
and
we
don't
have
a
lot
of
data
on
that,
but
we're
still
collecting
it
and
giving
it
to
compost
facilities.
So
what
is
the
value
of
this
compost?
I
mean
if
we
don't
know,
if
DTSC,
for
example,
of
one
of
your
slides,
doesn't
know
what
the
additives
are
in
these
products.
Are
we
still
applying
this
to
agricultural
land?
C
Yeah
we
are
a
world
or
applying
soils
that
have
compostable
plastics,
that
degraded
in
them
into
or
applying
that
compost
into
our
food
growing
system
and
I.
Guess
that's
the
question
for
me
is
so
what
happens
to
the
additives
which
we're
not
exactly
sure
which
ones
they
are
because
of
their
trade
secrets?
It's
hard
to
know,
but
we
know
from
traditional
petroleum-based
plastics
that
they're,
you
know,
are
hundreds
of
different
types
of
plasticizers
and
chemical
additives,
some
of
which
have
been
shown
to
be
endocrine
disruptors
and
carcinogens
and
have
all
kinds
of
health
effects.
C
So,
let's
a
sick
I
mean
I
would
assume
that
some
of
same
types
of
additives
are
being
used
in
bio-based
plastics
to
give
them
similar
properties,
colorants,
and
you
know
things
to
prevent,
prevent
to
preservatives
and
fumigants
and
all
the
same
sort
of
stuff.
So
if
those
additives
are
in
there,
what
happens
to
those
additives
when
the
plastic
material
breaks
down
in
the
compost
setting
are
those
chemicals
to
those
chemicals
disappear?
Do
they
remain
in
the
soil
and
what
happens
with
crops?
C
And
you
know
food
food
crops
when
they're
grown
in
soils
that
have
these
chemical
additives
in
them.
I
asked
the
state
to
study
that
several
years
ago,
when
I
was
consulting
for
the
state
and
they
ended
up
commissioning
a
study
done
by
chico
state
to
look
at
you
to
look
at
bio-based
plastics,
but
they
ended
up
only
studying
whether
these
bio-based
compostable
plastics
meet
ASTM
standards
and
they
also
in
terms
of
the
toxicity
question.
Just
looked
at
whether
or
not
the
compostable
plastics
inhibit
plant
growth
and
they
found
that
they
don't
inhibit
plant
growth.