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From YouTube: 11-21-22 City Council work session
Description
Des Moines City Council morning work session on Monday, November 21, 2022.
View the agenda: https://DSM.city/CouncilMeetings
A
C
We
last
adopted
the
Iowa
property
maintenance
code
2015..
That
was
our
last
major
update
when
we
did
that
we
moved
text
directly
from
the
ipmc
over
to
chapter
60.
For
clarity.
That
means
that
people
don't
have
to
actually
go
buy
the
ipmc
It's
contained
in
our
code,
so
it
makes
it
easier
and
clearer
for
enforcement
purposes.
We
also
struck
portions
of
the
ipmc
that
are
not
needed
or
conflict
with
our
operating
procedure.
C
We
are
going
to
strike
conflicting
Provisions
from
the
adopted
international
code,
bring
forward
text
regarding
occupancy
limitations,
we're
doing
that
because
in
zoning
and
some
other
codes
Within
the
municipal
code,
we
refer
to
the
occupancy
limits
for
some
of
our
calculations
and
so
to
make
it
clear
we
wanted
to
move
those
directly
over,
so
people
could
find
them
easier.
C
We're
not
changing
them
and
then
we're
going
to
amend
the
violations
for
public
nuisance
structures
to
make
them
easier
to
understand
and
I'll
show
you
as
an
example
later
and
then
make
some
non-substantive
code
change,
amendments
that
are
typographical,
spelling
and
that
type
of
thing.
C
So
the
provisions
that
Were
Striking
Code
Compliance
agency,
we
appoint
the
code
for
clients
through
chapter
60
as
the
neighborhood
services,
neighborhood
Inspection
Division.
So
we
don't
need
their
Code
Compliance
agency,
language
means
of
appeal.
There's
a
slightly
different.
Ours
goes
to
housing,
appeals
board
and
it's
set
out
in
chapter
60
specifically,
so
we
don't
want
any
conflict
between
the
means
of
appeal
again.
Board
of
appeals
is
slightly
different
in
the
property
international
code
than
it
is
ours.
Ours
is
set
out
in
chapter
60.
Method
of
service
is
slightly
different
transfer
of
ownership.
C
They
have,
in
the
proper
international
code,
says
that
you
can't
sell
a
house
and
that's
under
violation
until
it's
brought
up
to
code
that
violates
state
law.
So
we
need
to
take
that
out.
Placarding
is
slightly
differently,
although
we
do
have
a
placarding
of
unsafe
and
dangerous
structures
set
out
in
our
code
to
to
make
it
clear
we're
using
our
code,
not
the
international
code.
Demolition
process
is
different,
so
we're
striking
that
handrails
and
guard
rails
are
different
in
the
international
code.
We
brought
it
over
from
the
building
code,
so
it
complies
with
our
building.
C
C
Again
occupancy
limits,
we
use
it
for
rental,
but
other
occupancy
limits
for
zoning.
We
had
a
portion
of
the
international
code
Provisions
in
our
chapter,
60.,
others
were
by
reference,
removing
them
over,
so
that
actually
people
can
find
them
within
our
code.
C
Public
nuisance
violation,
the
current
code
does
contain
language
from
an
international
property
maintenance
code,
but
it
was
very
confusing,
so
we
wanted
to
amend
it.
So
it's
easier.
For
instance,
this
paragraph
is
what's
currently
in
our
code.
It
says
it's
dangerous
to
health,
Life,
Health
property,
not
providing
minimum
safeguards
to
protect
our
warning,
invented
fire,
unsafe
equipment,
Decay,
dilapidated,
structurally
unsafe
and
collapsing
Foundation,
that's
very
hard
for
both
code
officials.
C
To
cite
to
that
particular
paragraph,
and
it's
very
difficult
for
people
who
are
receiving
the
notice
to
know
what
it
is
in
that
paragraph
that
they're
supposed
to
be
repairing
it's
equally
as
difficult
for
them
to
take
that
notice
to
PDC
and
say
I
need
a
permit
to
to
repair.
You
know
this,
so
we're
breaking
it
down
into
separate
citations.
C
D
Right,
okay,
so
how
long
are
we
going
to
let
building
that's
sort
of
a
home?
That's
got
on
fire,
be
boarded
up
and
sit
and
not
have
any
activity.
C
C
C
E
E
C
What
is
the
issue
yeah,
but
that's
what
we're
working
toward
the
foundation
Southeast
is
collapsing.
So
it's
all
in
one
space.
What
they're
trying
to
do
is
cite
all
the
violations
and
then
put
all
the
compliance
in
a
long
list.
Well,
that's
hard
for
everybody
to
figure
out
in
that
long
list
which
section
of
the
code
it's
referring
back
to.
So
the
idea
is
to
have
a
shorter
paragraph
foundation
in
collapsing
and
then
underneath
that
put
the
northeast
corner
of
the
foundation
is
collapsing.
C
The
doors
open,
somebody's
busted
in
a
door
if
we
can't
get
in,
we
have
to
go,
get
a
search
warrant
which
we
can
do
if
we
have
reason
to
believe
that,
there's
something
that's
wrong
inside.
That's
a
life
and
safety
issue.
We
can
take
it
to
a
judge
and
say
this
is
the
reason
we
believe
and
we
needed
access
to,
determine
whether
that
is
in
there
or
not.
G
C
C
Yeah
we'll
take
an
engineer's
report
saying
that
it's
structurally
sound
to
hold
the
load
of
the
building
or
it
needs
X,
Y
and
Z
to
be
structurally
sufficient
to
hold
the
load
of
the
building.
Okay
yep
again
we're
going
to
have
specific
violations
for
electrical
applying
mechanical.
Those
are
kind
of
contained
in
various
paragraphs
that
you
have
to
kind
of
pick
out
within
that
paragraph
seems
much
easier
to
say.
The
mechanical
system
needs
to
be
repaired
or
replaced
and
then
put
the
reasoning
for
that
determination
and
again
Linda
to
your
point.
C
We
would
like
them
to
come
to
us
before
we
file
a
loss,
minor
amendments.
Again,
the
intergov
process
has
changed
since
the
rollout
we
were
going
to
have
landlords,
be
able
to
go
online
and
go
into
the
self-service
portal
put
in
their
application,
and
and
do
it
themselves.
We
believe
it's
even
better
for
record
maintenance
for
us
to
enter
in
the
back
office
and
not
require
them
to
go
in,
because
if
they
make
a
mistake,
then
we're
stuck
with
it.
C
We
have
to
start
the
case
all
over
again,
it's
just
easier
for
our
staff
to
to
do
that.
They
are
able
to,
though
pay
invoices
to
the
self-service
portal.
So
that
is
up
and
running.
So
it's
just
minor
tweaks
to
say
they
don't
have
to
go
in
and
put
their
application
in
we're
going
to
do
that
for
them.
It
just
clarifies
the
process
again.
C
There's
some
clarifications
within
the
ordinance
that
we
want
to
clear
up,
typographic
layers,
spelling
errors,
you
know
just
just
clean
up
you've
had
we've
had
so
many
ordinance
changes
of
this
over
the
last
20
years
that
it's
just.
This
is
a
good
time
to
just
do
that
clean
up
and
make
it
make
it
correct.
H
Go
ahead,
girl,
a
quick
question
on
inspections
for
rental
units.
So
is
there
one
group
that
or
one
team
that
inspects
the
rental
units
and
is
there
another
person
or
team
that
does
the
common
areas
just
have
a
clarification?
No.
C
There
there
is
the
inspector
inspects,
the
entire
building,
okay
and
if
there's
a
rental
in
a
building
with
with
multi-units,
and
maybe
one
or
two,
our
rentals
in
the
restaurant
are
occupied.
They
do
the
common
areas.
Okay,.
C
H
H
H
C
Yes,
we
are
meeting
with
the
legal
department
this
this
week
we
have
our
portion
drafted,
I've
done
the
red
line
strikeouts,
so
it
should
be
pretty
easy.
We
want
them
to
go
through,
make
sure
that
there
isn't
anything
they're
concerned
about
I'd
like
to
get
it
to
you
before
a
week
or
so
before
the
next
council
meeting.
So
you
have
a
chance
to
read
it.
That's.
C
E
H
E
Wanted
to
ask
about
specifically
about
since
we're
making
changes
the
rental
code
we've
talked
at
least
internally
about
the
idea
of
adding
a
requirement
for
homes
that
have
been
identified
as
potentially
having
LED
service
lines.
That
is
part
of
the
rental
certificate.
There'd
be
a
requirement
to
test.
A
B
Not
this
update,
but
I've
just
started
over
the
weekend
that
process
with
with
legal.
We
that's
a
new
topic
that
needs
to
be
researched
to
make
sure
that
that
we
can
go
that
far.
C
E
Well,
I
mean
that
that's
what
I'm
looking
at
I
mean
it
I
I'm
happy
to
have
the
broader
conversation.
But
it
seems
to
me
that
we
have
going
to
the
authority
question.
I
think
it
seems
very
clear
because
we
have
the
ability
to
affect
the
health
and
safety
and
lead
in
drinking.
Water
is
certainly
a
a
very
clear
health
and
safety
issue.
E
C
G
B
B
Right
and
we're
going
to
need
to
work
with
them
because
they
maintain
the
database
on
the
water
pipes.
They
do
not
those
they
do
not
have
a
record
of
which
homes
have
led
and
which
do
not.
And
so
there
are
really
three
questions
that
we
will
be
bringing
back
the
council
is,
do
we
require
testing
of
whether
or
not
you
have
a
lead,
pipe
and
and
then
upon
notice
or
recognition
that
you
do
have
lead
pipe?
B
E
Right
and
we
can
figure
out
pieces
of
this,
because
what
Water
Works
has
now
it
they've
got
I
mean
they.
They
have
on
their
website
that
you
can
enter
in
your
home
and
they
identify
some
20
000
homes
in
Des,
Moines
that
potentially
have
lead
service
line,
potentially
right
and
that's
based
on
the
year
that
those
lines
went
in
and
the
size
of
the
lines
to
their
knowledge.
So
they've
got
a
pretty
good
idea
that
there's
lead
service
lines.
They
don't
have
certainty,
because
some
right.
G
And
what
about
the
health
department,
because
I
know
the
kids
before
they
enter
school?
Kids
are
all
tested
per
lead.
So
if
there's,
if
they,
if
they
test
positive
for
lead,
then
then
we
know
that
it
could
be
the
water
lines.
It
could
be.
The
siding
on
the
house.
I
mean
there
could
be
lots
of
different
things.
E
I
mean
this
is
just
another
way
to
to
catch.
The
issue
I
mean
we
know,
for
example,
that
lead
service
lines.
I
mean
it's
a
problem
across
the
country
and
we
see
what
happens
if
the
water
changes
which
Des
Moines
Water
Works
is
very
conscientious
about,
but
if
the
pH
level
of
the
water
changes
or
you
switch
a
water
source,
that's
what
can
all
of
a
sudden
corrode
a
bunch
of
lead
service
lines.
E
That's
part
of
what
happened,
for
example,
in
Flint,
and
why
we're
having
a
conversation
about
this,
because
we're
now
a
bit
more
aware
of
the
fact
that
an
event
can
can
sort
of
trigger
a
massive
problem,
and
so
increased
Awareness
on
property
owners
is
part
of
what
we
can
do
to
to
help
address
this
before
before
a
triggering
event.
C
So
just
a
reminder
of
our
current
process:
the
process
starts
once
City
staff
receives
10
calls
to
the
hotline
with
the
same
descriptor
within
six
hours,
and
then
we
go
out
and
attempt
to
locate
the
source
with
sort
of
a
sniff
test.
C
If
the
industry
is
identified,
they're
told
they
are
deployed.
They
are
the
point
of
origin.
If
there
are
three
findings
within
a
90-day
period,
the
company
must
send
a
medication
mitigation
plan.
C
I
will
note
that,
not
in
20
years
or
more
have
we
reached
the
level
of
a
mitigation
plan.
So
it
seems
that
I
would.
D
I
would
just
say,
as
representing
the
eastern
part
of
our
city
in
the
East
Village.
This
current
process
does
not
work
just
I'm
glad
that
we're
taking
a
look
at
it
I
know
councilman
Voss
lives
there
and
has
a
distinct
smell
of
it
consistently
but
yeah.
This
is
this
process,
doesn't
work
so
I'm
glad
you're,
bringing
it
Forward
yeah.
C
Definitely
so
we
need
to
figure
out
if
we
can
come
up
with
another
solution.
I
will
say
this
at
the
beginning.
This
is
not
an
attempt
to
put
businesses
out
of
business.
It's
not
an
attempt
to
shut
Industries
down.
This
is
not
an
attempt
to
move
anybody
that
currently
employs
people
within
the
city
of
Des
Moines,
to
move
them
out
or
relocate
them.
C
This
is
an
attempt
to
find
a
balance
between
their
right
to
do
production
and
residents
right
to
an
expectation
that
they're
not
going
to
be
adversely
affected
by
odors,
so
I
want
to
lead
with
that.
I
think
that's
important
for
everybody
to
understand,
so
we
they
aren't
going
into
this
like.
Oh,
the
city
wants
to
shut
down,
whoever
that
is
not
the
goal.
C
And
we've
built
up
around
them
and
we've
enhanced
the
spillage
and
we've
put
more
housing
in,
and
we've
moved
msc1
and
msc2
into
their
backyard.
So
we
need
to
learn
to
work
together.
So
one
of
the
things
that
I
want
to
clarify
is
that
pollution
is
not
smell.
Those
are
two
different
things
that
are
handled
through
two
different
control
mechanisms.
Air
pollution
refers
to
the
release
of
pollutants
into
the
air,
which
is
detrimental
to
human
health.
C
So
those
are
the
particles
that
are
released,
that
if
you
breathe
in
you're
going
to
get
lung
damage-
and
it's
going
to
adversely
affect
your
health.
Odor,
though
impacts
through
a
strong,
unpleasant
offensive
smell
that
can
interfere
with
one's
enjoyment
of
life.
It's
sitting
out
on
a
patio
having
a
supper
you
know,
can
be
adversely
affected
by
odor.
C
City
staff
is
focused
on
dealing
with
the
odor
air
pollutants
are
dealt
with
by
Polk
County
in
the
state
of
Iowa,
so
they're,
two
different
things:
two
different
controls,
two
different.
You
know
concepts
of
control
I
just
want
to
make
sure
that
we're
all
staying
focused
on
the
pollution
side,
we're
not
going
to
get
into
our
the
smell
side,
we're
not
going
to
get
into
the
pollution
side.
That's
somebody
else's
regulation
and.
C
C
We
have
a
contract
with
RK
and
Associates
Inc
and
they
have
been
to
the
city
to
help
us.
They
provided
odor
training
to
City
staff.
So
there
was
a
classroom,
a
portion
on
the
science
of
odor
and
then
they
broke
in
two
groups
and
they
actually
had
their
smell
tested
to
determine
who
had
the
most
receptive
nose
and
who
didn't
so.
They
went
through
a
series
of
snipping
bottles
and
then
going
through
in
the
air,
so
you'd
add
parts
of
air
and
get
it
down
to
where
they
could
smell
zero.
C
So
there
was
this
whole
quite
elaborate,
interesting
testing.
C
We
we've
been
trying
to
analyze
complaint
calls
and
weather
conditions
so
that
we
can
map
odor
and
odor
monitoring
was
conducted
and
recommended.
Recommendations
have
been
provided
by
the
consultant.
C
C
So
they
looked
at
wind
direction
and
a
complaint
and
significant
other
sources
that
trigger
order
complaints
are
located.
Southeast,
south
and
east
of
the
complaintants,
as
shown
by
this
diagram
for
one
of
the
years
of
study
here,
is
a
mapping
of
the
complaints.
So
the
blue
bubbles,
with
the
Stars
in
it
are
the
identified
odor
generators.
Those
were
staff
suggestion
to
the
consultant
that
we
believe
these
could
be
potential
odor
generators.
C
C
So
the
consultant
conducted
two
monitoring
events:
June
13th
through
2022
through
the
17th
August
8th
through
August
12th.
These
monitoring
events
included
10
locations
that
the
staff
had
identified
and
this
the
somebody
changed
the
slide.
Sorry,
the
consultant
then
measured
the
number
of
air
dilutions
to
reach
a
level
of
no
detection.
C
For
instance
a
DTM
less
than
two
means
there
was
a
detectable
odor
in
the
ambient
air,
but
after
two
sample
dilutions,
the
odor
was
no
longer
detectable.
So
that's
sort
of
how
the
the
odor
is
described
is
how
many
dilutions
does
it
take
to
get
to
zero
if
it
takes
four
dilutions,
it's
a
four.
If
it
takes
seven,
it's
seven,
and
so
that
sets
what
what
the
odor
is
detectable
at.
C
They
also
monitored
at
16
Community
locations
and
around
the
businesses,
exactly
what
it
shouldn't
be,
a
a
bear,
a
say:
a
defined
amount
of
air
added
to
the
smell
to
get
it
diluted
down
to
where
you
couldn't
smell
it.
So
if
it
took
again
I'm
not
going
to
get
scientific,
you
know
if
it's
if
I
smell
it
and
it
takes
seven
of
those.
C
H
Yes,
the
DT
means
detectable
test
is
that
what
d
t
d.
C
So
out
of
590
measurements
of
the
perimeter
locations
65
had
no
order.
22
percent
had
zero
to
two.
Eight
percent
had
two
but
less
than
four
and
five
percent
had
four
but
less
than
seven.
So
the
consultant
is
suggesting
that
the
threshold
be
set
at
four.
D
C
So
who
did
they
find
to
be
significant?
Odor
generators,
darling,
Pine,
Ridge,
Farms
and
Richmond
Pig
company
tested
at
seven
around
their
their
Industries
when
they
were
measured
at
the
property
line,
so
they
were
identified
as
significant
odor
generators
having
reached
seven.
C
C
So
the
recommendation
odor
levels
be
set
at
four
at
five
or
above
it's
non-compliant
at
the
property
line.
So
again
say
this
isn't
for
commercial
restaurants,
we
got
to
kind
of
keep
kind
of
Lane
here,
so
they
would
be
required
if,
if
we
find,
which
the
three
are
going
to
find
the
seven
submit
an
Odor,
Control
implementation
plan
and
odor
management
plan
for
review.
And
then
you
know,
use
the
dilution
threshold
to
look
at
their
plans
and
make
sure
that
they
are
using
best
practices
to
attempt
to
reach
that.
C
So
they
would
be
required
on
their
own
to
determine
that
their
outer
control
points
for
sampling.
They
would
be
required
to
produce
a
dispersion
model
to
determine
the
impacts
downwind.
C
So
when
you
just
remember
that
map
where
they
go
they're
going
to
have
to
figure
out
how
they're
going
to
control
that
dispersion
at
the
plant,
so
it
doesn't
get
to
where
the
complaints
are
received
and
then
identify
Odor,
Control
measures
necessary
to
comply
with
the
nuisance
regulations
that
we
set
and
then
we
would
have
to
once
they
submit
them.
We're
going
to
have
to
hire
an
Odor
Control
consultant
to
make
sure
that
the
plans
are
going
to
reach
the
levels
that
we
set,
because
nobody
on
staff
has
that
expertise.
C
Next
steps
we're
going
to
meet
with
the
three
identified,
significant
odor
generators
and
discuss
you
know,
sort
of
what
voluntary
compliance
is
going
to
look
like
how
how
we
can
all
work
together
to
get
there.
We
will
draft
an
ordinance
for
the
council's
consideration
if
we
feel
like
we
need
to
do
that
after
the
voluntary
compliance
discussions.
B
If
I
could
yes
Scott
one
other
thing
we
had
talked
about
and
I
don't
know.
If
we
can
ask
the
consultant
if
this
makes
sense
is,
since
we
don't
know,
as
lay
people,
what
the
difference
between
a
five
and
a
seven
might
smell
like
that,
when
we
have
instances
where
we've
measured
it
as
such,
we
would
send
out
a
quick
notice
to
say
for
your
familiarity.
B
This
is
a
six,
and
so
those
in
the
area
would
have
a
feel
for
what
that
means
and
how
bad
or
not
so
bad.
It
actually
does
smell
and
have
a
few
a
few
opportunities
for
for
the
public
and
yourselves
to
understand
the
differences.
C
A
G
G
To
pass,
but
when
we
met
I
mean
I,
remember
the
whoever
we
talked
to
they
were.
They
said.
If
there's
ever
an
issue,
just
give
us
a
call,
you
know
when
the
trucks
come
in,
they
open
the
doors
and
so
that
that
is
what
causes
the
odor
I
mean
I'm,
just
saying
what
they
said
and
we've
reached
out
and
had
a
conversation,
and
they
said
you
know,
if
there's
ever
a
problem,
you
guys
you
can
just
Reach
Out
directly
to
us
yep
I
Wonder
has
have
we.
We.
D
Come
here
real,
quick,
the
councilman,
boss
and
I
have
met
with
members
of
darling
I.
Think
you
have
to
I
mean
they.
They
tell
us
that
they're
using
best
practices,
I
mean
I,
don't
know
what
I
don't
I
don't
know.
Can
the
consultant
have
we
looked
at
what
practices
they're
using
to.
C
The
last
time
we
really
looked
at
it
was
20
years
ago
when
they,
because
it
was
National
byproducts
and
they're,
the
ones
that
went
through
the
compliance
plan
with
us
back
then,
and
they
did
reach
best
practices.
Then
now
what's
happened
in
the
20
years?
It's
anybody's
guess:
they've
been
real
receptive
to
talking
to
us
yeah,
so
I,
don't
I
think
that
their
goal
is
I'm
speaking
for
them
and
I
probably
shouldn't,
but
when
I
talk
to
them
their
goal
seems
to
be
in
line
with
ours.
C
D
C
E
Well
and
best
practices
has
often
two
components
right,
I
mean
you,
it's
not
just
about
getting
the
practice
in
place,
it's
about
maintaining
the
practice
and
doing
everything
to
maintain
it,
so
you
can
start
on
one
side
and
maybe
be
off
and
and
I
don't
sure
again.
This
is
not.
This
requires
the
technical
folks
to
engage
but
simply
saying
we're
doing
best
practices.
There
are
a
lot
of
times,
people
say
we're
doing
best
practices
and
they
are
a
long
way
off
from
what
is
the
best
practice
and
how
that's
supposed
to
be
implemented.
Well,.
C
C
Moving
forward
we'll
have
to
bring
suggestions
to
council
as
to
how
we're
going
to
have
that
those
plans
analyzed
and
who-
and
it
might
be
another
RFP
to
say
so.
This
was
the
study.
Okay,
an
RFP
for
who
do
we
want
to
be
the
person
who
looks
at
the
plans
and
comes
back
to
us
with
the
answers
in
language
that
I
can
understand
that
that
we
can
work
with.
C
Iowa
state
has
a
Iowa
state.
Has
a
component
I
know
back
when
National
bride
products
did
it?
We
went
to
some
a
company
in
Saint,
Croix
and
Iowa
State
and
they
worked
hand
in
hand
now
I,
don't
know
today
what
Iowa
State
you
know
they
changed
even
their
curriculum
and
and
what
they're
teaching
and
how
they're
teaching
it
so
I
don't
know
if
they're
a
partner
that's
still
available,
but
there
are.
There
are
Partners
out
there
that
we
can
find
to
help
us
with
this
honey.
A
F
C
B
H
Carl
so
does
City
staff
have
or
will
they
have
one
or
more
of
the
centimeters
I.
H
H
C
A
C
I
think
that
this
ordinance
would
respond
somewhat
differently.
If
we're
trying
to
set
up
a
an
information
piece
for
residents
that
we
would
go
out,
we
would
measure
it
and
we
put
out
on
social
media.
This
is
registered
at
a
nine,
so
everybody
knows
what
a
nine
is
and
then
use
that
information
to
continue
to
work
with
the
industries.
Well,
what
happened
at
six
o'clock
in
the
morning
on
August
2nd
that
caused
a
nine?
Was
it
the
weather?
Was
it
a
door
open
where
they
were
unloading?
What
you
know?
C
H
And
you
know
on
most
years:
August
is
yes
pretty
putrid,
but
it
wasn't.
This
year,
like
I,
stepped
out
the
door.
Well
within
the
last
two
weeks,
it
kind
of
November.
What
the
heck
is
this
about.
So
so
so
are
we
getting
enough
of
a
sample
of
what
has
been
bad
in
the
past?
I
mean
just
quirky
this
year.
That
wasn't
I
think
is
it
kind
of
like
a
plug,
sits
over
yeah,
Southeast
side
and.
H
Happen
that
yeah
I
don't
know
if
that's
a
weather,
inversion
or
you
know
whatever,
but
so
it
that
just
didn't
happen
this
year,
when
the
consultant
was
in
town
in
August,
it
wasn't
terrible
so
yep,
so
just
to
give
us
an
idea
what
other
communities
have
used
as
their
DT
threshold
like
in
the
Chicago
area.
What's
the
threshold
there
and
what
would
be
a
threshold
number
in
California
well,.
H
C
Can
be
is
about
seven,
so
it's
it's
different,
Across,
the
Nation.
What.
H
H
H
C
We
will
have
to
work
out
who's
assigned
the
centimeter
and
who
will
be
assigned
to
go
out
when
there
is
a
weather
event
or
an
event
that
happens
and
records
that
so.
H
By
the
way,
I'm
pleased
to
pleased
to
hear
you've
had
some
some
meetings
with
darling
and
Pat
Becker
right.
So
that's
a
that's
a
good
sign
that
there's
a
willingness
to
work.
C
And
just
to
be
clear,
we're
meeting
with
the
other
two
this
afternoon
this
this
morning
this
afternoon
we
want
to
have
the
same
open
dialogue
with
those
Industries
also,
so
they
must
be
the
first
time
we've
talked
to
them.
This
will
be
the
first
in-person
meeting
darling
requested
a
virtual
phone
call,
so
we
talked
to
them
briefly
last
week,
but
okay.
C
To
make
sure
that
they
knew
this
was
happening
before
we
rolled
it
out
to
you
that
they
aren't
surprised
and
and
make
sure
they
understand
that
we're
trying
to
work
on
this
together.
It's
not
I,
don't
want
it
to
be
adversary.
I
want
it
to
be
cooperative
as
much
as
as
we
can,
because
again,
we're
not
here
to
put
anybody
out.
A
I
You
the
just
to
give
you
an
idea
of
what
the
landscape
looks
like
for
order.
Regular.
There
are
several
approaches.
The
most
commonly
used
in
United
States
among
all
states
and
cities
is
a
nuisance.
I
That
means,
if
you
believe,
for
any
citizen,
believes
that
they
are
subjected
to
nuisance
because
of
the
you
know
they
can
enjoy
their
problems.
They
have
a
right
to
sue
okay,
been
involved
in
those
lawsuits.
They
range
from
10
million
dollars
to
50
million
dollars
compared
to
environmental
violations.
I
I
I
I
So
generally,
when
we
Define
industry
against
the
nuisance
lawsuits,
we
say
that
show
me
that
that
why
we
are
not
causing
the
Nations
once
you
have.
Those
deaths
judge
will
say
they
have
done
reasonable
thing
if
they
have
a
right
to
exist
and
the
decision
is
made
by
jury
based
on
what
the
that
is,
the
common
nuisance
law.
Is
there
whether
you
come
up
with
this
regulation
or
not?
I
The
nuisance
law
is
still
prevailing,
I'm,
not
a
lawyer
by
any
means,
but
I'm
just
telling
you
that
that
is
generally
there
and
the
city
can
also
join
the
lawsuit
on
behalf
of
the
citizen
to
pursue
so
that's
the
most
common
one.
Then
there
are
dilution
to
threshold
value
is
used
as
a
reasonable
approach.
I
If
you
see
most
of
the
states,
they
will
generally
fall
under
seven,
seven
or
above
then
there
are
some
states
which
say
four
and
above
is
a
news
now.
Those
are
States
generally
have
a
little
bit
more
lenient
because
the
plant
could
be
located
in
a
remote
part,
part
of
the
town
of
the
state.
There
are
no
Neighbors.
I
So
generally,
the
state
regulations
are
a
little
bit
more
General,
because
if
you
say
anything
over
four
is
a
nuisance,
you
know
and
there
is
no
Community
nearby.
What's
the
point
right
so
they're
a
little
bit
more
now,
cities
generally
are
a
little
bit
more
restrictive
because
the
population
is
closer.
You
know
there
is
no
buffer
between,
but
you
have
to
have
a
reasonable
myself.
I
I
If
I
dilute
that
cubic
feet
of
air
with
two
cubic
feet
of
odor
free,
so
it
becomes
a
three
Cubit
right
if
I
smell
it
is
to,
if
I
don't
smell
it,
it's
less
than
is
it
so?
What
we
are
saying
in
here
is
that
the
putrid
orders
now
I
totally
agree
with
you.
This
August
wasn't
that
bad
compared
to
the
results
which
we
have
seen
because
I
was
expecting
higher
than
seven.
H
I
The
instrument
which
has
been
established
since
1970.
ASTM,
it
was
developed
at
IIT,
Research
Institute,
where
you
know
I
was
employed
and
Dr
drevin
ax,
who
developed
the
instrument,
was
funded
by
rendering
Institute.
I
Now
you
know,
since
I
work
for
Dr
Driving
ax,
he
has
passed
away,
God
bless
his
soul,
but
so
rendering
Institute
was
the
first
one
has
been
concerned
about
the
orders,
because
that
was
the
main
One
initial.
Nowadays,
we
see
more
associated
with
the
landfills.
You
know,
landfills
are
a
larger
source
of
borders,
been
involved
in
three
cases
where
the
landfill
has
been
sued
by
the
citizens.
I
There
are
regulations
like
in
Michigan.
If
you
go
to
Michigan,
Michigan
has
a
regulation
which
says
that
you're
gonna
rank
the
orders
from
one
through
six
inspector
will
go
there
and
the
inspector
will
decide
what
is
the
intensity
of
order?
I
If
inspector
says
that
it
is
greater
than
3,
you
are
in
violation
of
the
901
rule
of
Michigan,
you
get
a
ticket
they're,
finding
a
hundred
dollars
or
something
of
that
you're
pretty
minimal,
and
what
they
tell
you
is
that
you
tell
us
what
caused
the
orders
and
have
you
planned
to
implement
a
control.
I
I
I
So
that
you
have
to
say
that
you
have
to
act
like
I
heard,
you
know,
Alderman,
you
said
that
everybody
says
in
fact
go
talk
to
them.
Oh
mine
is
a
state
of
the
art
I'm
doing
everything
I.
Can?
I
I
If
you
find
Y,
where
about
you,
send
them
some
kind
of
a
violation,
you
know
whatever
the
council,
you
know
or
mayor
what
you
think
is
appropriate
and
then
they
have
to
respond
back
to
you
saying
that
so
they
request
a
meeting
with
the
city
within
30
days
and
that
in
the
city
you
know
what
happened.
Was
it
the
incident
happened
or
you
had
some
leak
or
something
like
that?
But
if
there
is
barring
any
incident,
if
the
orders
are
there
because
of
the
summer
months,
you
come
up
with
a
plan.
I
I
I
They
predict
using
a
five-year
of
meteorological
data
every
10
minutes,
so
meteorological
data
wind
datas,
are
available
by
the
nearest
where
you
know
weather
station
and
based
on
that
emission
from
the
source.
Using
the
meteorological
data,
you
can
estimate
what
would
be
the
worst
case,
concentrations
in
the
community.
I
I
So
in
five
years
this
would
be
the
worst
case.
So
you
say:
okay
now,
you
know
this
is
the
worst
case.
How
are
you
gonna
come
up
with
something,
so
we
do
not
exceed
in
your
community
when
I
say
five
I
mean
five
at
the
fence
line
afterwards
very
near.
You
know,
right
at
the
and
based
on
the
studies
people
have
performed.
Generally,
you
have
that
standard.
H
No,
and
so
will
our
code
have
some
sort
of
violation
schedule
that
will
be
escalating
then,
for
like
the
first
violation
is
X
dollars
and
a
subsequent.
Well,
let
me
ask
it
a
different
way.
Is
that
what
other
cities
have
done?
No.
I
The
what
they
do
is
every
violation
they
get
a
ticket.
They
have
to
pay
X
number
of
dollars,
which
is
not
very
serious.
You
know,
very
you,
know,
serious
fine,
it's
probably
hundred
two
hundred
dollars,
but
the
thing
in
here
is
that
once
you
pay
that
fine,
you
are
accepting
that
there
was
no
good
news.
I
I
The
industry
can
claim
that
we
were
complying
with
the
city
to
this
ordinance.
It's
a
reasonable.
As
a
matter
of
fact,
in
March
of
2021
last
year,
one
of
our
clients,
Zion
landfill
up
in
Illinois,
was
sued
by
40
citizens
that
they
were
there
and
they
can
enjoy
their
property
and
they
filed
a
lawsuit
for
10
million
dollars.
I
Our
clients
offered
them
a
million
dollars
to
go
away.
You
know,
and
citizens
lawyer
said
no,
he
wants
10..
So
we
went
to
a
draft
and
I
was
the
expert
witness
on
the
you
know
the
the
industry
side
and
our
position
was
that
in
Illinois
it
says
anything
less
than
seven
is
not
a
nuisance.
Anything
over
seven
is
a
nuisance
and
under
when
we
measured
orders
for
like
a.
I
H
E
You
mentioned
that
there
are
some
places
that
have
that
have
a
threshold
of
two
DT
right
and
they're
they're
best
management
practices
that
can
allow
entities
to
meet
that
2gt.
I
I
They
will
prove
what
the
city
will
require
them
to
do
is
perform
an
order
study
and
do
a
modeling
to
show
that
currently.
Based
on
this,
what
is
the
worst
case,
concentrations
of
orders
at
the
fence
line
they
envision.
Okay
and
say
that
comes
out
to
be
eight
okay,
then
they
say:
okay,
if
I
control
this
Source.
If
I
control
this
Source,
if
I
control
this
Source,
then
I
control
like
say
20,
here,
10
percent
there,
ten
percent
here
by
controlling
that
and
I,
do
the
model
again.
I
The
thing
in
here
is
that
you
want
them
industry
to
tell
them
that
how
they
want
to
come
with
the
compliance
rather
than
you
dictating
them,
that
what
is
the
state
of
the
art,
because
state
of
the
art
varies
from
industry
to
Industry
right,
so
rendering
will
have
a
x
state
of
the
art.
Work
handling
facility
may
have
different
I
think
some
of
these
facilities.
What
they
may
be
doing
is
when
they
are
cleaning
it
they're,
not
paying
attention
to
it,
just
clean
it
with
with
this
thing.
In
your
mind,.
B
I
I
I
That
means
we
were
there.
We
were
causing
nuisance
and
you
came
to
us.
Why
are
you
blaming
the
lot
of
Judges
through
that
defensive
once
again?
I
am
not
a
lawyer
but
I've
seen
that
that
defense
coming
to
nuisance
defense,
what
we
call
it
it's
hard
to
win
a
lot
of
times
now,
some
of
the
agriculture
facilities.
I
If
you
are
handling
like
you,
have
a
pen,
you
know
when
you
are
growing,
it
I
think
some
of
the
I
think
the
state
may
be
exempting
them
from
those
requirements
state
of
in
Iowa,
but
generally,
unless
you
have
a
specific
regulation
which
exempts
you
from
coming
to
nuisance.
Defense,
it's
hard
to
it's
hard
to
using
that
defense.
In
the
course
I
have
seen
that
my
up
to
mind
many.
I
B
B
A
All
right
we've
got
a
closed
session
at
three
o'clock
and
for
those
members
of
the
public.
Thank
you
for
attending
this
morning
and
we
will
see
you
for
a
proclamation
and
we'll
get
going
regular
city
council
meeting
thanks.
This
meeting
is
adjourned.