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From YouTube: Madeline Miller - Authors Visiting in Des Moines (AViD)
Description
Madeline Miller’s 2018 novel, Circe, was a New York Times #1 best-seller and appeared on dozens of “best books of 2018” lists, including NPR, People, The Washington Post, Time, Entertainment Weekly, Buzzfeed, Book Riot, and more. Circe was also named 2018 Book of the Year by Publishers Weekly and BookPage. The novel, a retelling of the life story of the goddess and witch Circe, recasts the infamous figure who turned men into pigs in The Odyssey into a feminist hero. Miller's debut novel, 2011's best-selling The Song of Achilles, won the prestigious Orange Prize for Fiction (now called the Women's Prize for Fiction).
https://dmpl.org/madeline-miller
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A
A
A
The
Des
Moines
Public
Library,
Foundation
and
executive
director
Dori
Broyles
raised
the
funds
for
avid
summer
reading
and
school
readiness,
programming
for
children,
teens
and
adults,
and
new
public
access
computers,
foundation.
Funding
supports
87%
of
the
library's
free
programming,
bringing
outstanding
authors
for
avid
free
programs.
The
latest
technology
and
improving
the
library
collections
takes
more
money
than
our
tax
dollars
can
provide.
Please
help
us
to
continue
to
make
a
difference
with
your
gift
to
the
library,
and
this
is
my
property.
A
A
Thank
you
to
the
volunteers
and
sponsors
who
make
avid
possible
our
premier
sponsor
the
Des
Moines
Register
nationwide
Foundation
Principal
Financial
Group
Brad
and
Kelly
ed
Meister
humanities
Iowa,
a
state-based
affiliate
of
the
National
Endowment
for
the
Humanities
cultivating
compassion
there,
dr.
Richard
Deming,
Foundation,
Mary
Kay
and
Daniel
M
Kelly
Family,
Foundation,
Oh,
Brian,
Fitzpatrick
foundation,
Karen
chef
and
Steve
Jane,
dr.
Katherine
and
Andrew
Houser,
Pamela
bass,
bookie
and
hairy
bookie
Shelley
and
Martin
Brody
Mary,
Ricci
Douglas
and
Deborah
West,
Don,
Taylor,
Judy,
blank
Mary,
Ann
and
Robert.
A
B
There
we
go
good
evening.
I'm,
sue,
woody
and
I
would
just
like
to
welcome
you
all
here
tonight
for
this
incredibly
special
avid
with
Madeline
Miller
in
this
amazing
book.
If
you
haven't
read
it
yet
trust
me
by
the
end
of
tonight,
you
will
want
to
read
it.
It's
beautiful.
Let
me
just
tell
you
a
little
bit
about
it.
Cersei
is
a
beautifully
told
reimagining
of
a
slice
of
classic
Greek
mythology.
B
It
tells
the
story
of
Cersei,
the
infamous
witch
and
goddess
from
The
Odyssey,
mostly
best
known
for
turning
men
into
pigs,
but
Madeline
were
ventolin.
Miller's
Cersei
is
a
complex
protagonist
with
far
more
agency
than
Homer's
version.
No
longer
is
she
defined
by
her
affair,
with
Odysseus
instead
she's
a
wise
and
underappreciated
woman
who
was
banished
to
an
island
alone
but
liberated
from
the
restrictions
of
her
time.
She's
allowed
to
be
independent
and
blossom
and
be
away
from
the
expectations
of
her
father
and
societal
norms.
B
Madeline
Miller
earned
her
BA
and
her
MA
studying
classics
from
Brown
University
and
she
has
taught
and
tutored
Latin,
Greek
and
Shakespeare
for
the
past
two
decades.
Her
first
novel,
the
song
of
Achilles,
won
the
prestigious
2012
orange
Prize
for
fiction,
and
that's
now
called
the
women's
prize
for
fiction,
and
that
book
has
been
translated
into
over
25
languages.
Then
along
came
Cersei
last
year.
This
novel
was
a
New,
York
Times
number-one
bestseller,
and
it
was
just
recently
named
a
finalist
for
the
Women's
Prize
for
fiction.
B
Now
no
one's
ever
won
this
award
twice
by
the
way,
but
we
are
rooting
for
you
and
I
think
you
can
do
it.
It's
a
beautiful
book.
The
accolades
for
Cersei
are
many.
It
won
the
Indies
Choice
best
fiction
of
the
Year
award
and
the
best
audiobook
of
the
Year
award,
and
it
is
truly
a
magnificent
audiobook
and
you
can
download
that
from
the
library
or
borrow
it
on
CD.
B
It
was
also
won
the
2018
L
big
Book
Award
winner,
the
book
page
book
of
the
year
and
paste
best
novel
of
2018.
Additionally,
Cersei
appeared
on
dozens
of
best
of
the
Year
lists,
including
NPR
Entertainment,
Weekly
time,
people
BuzzFeed,
the
Washington
Post
and
many
more
and
additionally
I
would
just
like
to
say
I
know.
B
A
lot
of
you
are
reading
this
because
for
2019
this
is
one
of
our
top
circulating
titles
of
the
library,
so
I
know
you're
reading
it
and
talking
about
it
and
can't
wait
to
hear,
and
you
will
have
an
opportunity
to
ask
Madeleine
some
questions
after
her
talk.
So
please
fill
out
those
little
forms
in
your
program
and
when
it
comes
time
for
the
Q&A
program,
we'll
pick
them
up
and
give
them
to
the
author
by
Mary
Kelly,
serving
as
our
moderator
tonight
is
Mary.
B
Kelly
Mary
was
once
a
children's
librarian
and
though
she's
now
retired
she's,
no
stranger
to
libraries.
Still
she
was
a
founding
member
of
the
of
the
Des
Moines
Public
Library
Foundation
and
is
active
in
our
library
programs,
she's,
also
a
generous
supporter
of
avid
and
the
library.
So
thank
you
and
now
at
this
time,
I
would
like
to
welcome
to
the
stage
the
wonderful
Madeline
Miller.
C
Thank
you
so
much
for
that
lovely
introduction.
I'm
an
old
high
school
teacher,
so
I
have
to
come
out.
I
can't
be
trapped
behind
a
podium
hello
to
all
of
you.
Thank
you
all
for
being
here
and
thank
you
to
the
Des
Moines
Public
Library
and
the
foundation
for
having
me
my
mom
was
a
librarian,
so
speaking
at
libraries
always
feels
like
coming
home.
So
thank
you
for
all
your
support
to
the
library.
C
So
I
wanted
to
start
by
reading
a
little
bit
just
a
very
short
passage
and
as
sue
is
saying
about,
Cersei
Cersei
is
most
well
known
for
her
appearance
in
Homer's
Odyssey,
where
she
turns
Odysseus's
men
into
pigs.
She
is
the
first
witch
in
Western
literature,
and
this
passage
that
I'm
going
to
read
comes
from
towards
the
middle
of
the
novel
after
she
has
already
started
doing
the
pig
turning.
C
Odysseus
asked
me
once
why
pigs
we
were
seated
before
my
hearth
and
our
usual
chairs.
He
liked
the
one
draped
in
cowhide
with
silver
inlaid
in
its
carvings.
Sometimes
he
would
rub
the
scrolling
absently
beneath
his
thumb.
Why
not
I
said
he
gave
me
a
bear.
Smile
I
mean
it.
I
would
like
to
know.
I
knew
he
meant
it.
He
was
not
a
pious
man,
but
the
seeking
out
of
things
hidden.
This
was
his
highest
worship.
C
There
were
answers
in
me:
I
felt
them
very
deep,
as
last
year's
bulbs
growing
fat,
their
roots,
tangled
with
those
moments
I
had
spent
against
the
wall.
When
my
lions
were
gone
and
my
spell
shut
up
inside
me
after
I
changed
a
crew,
I
would
watch
them
scrabbling
and
crying
in
the
sky
falling
over
each
other
stupid
with
their
horror.
They
hated
it
all.
Their
newly
voluptuous
flesh,
they're,
delicate,
split,
trotters,
they're,
swollen
bellies
dragging
in
the
Earth's
muck.
C
It
was
a
humiliation
debasement.
They
were
sick
with
longing
for
their
hands.
Those
appendages
menus
to
mitigate
the
world
come
I
would
say
to
them.
It's
not
that
bad.
You
should
appreciate
a
pig's
advantages.
Mud
slick
and
Swift,
they
are
hard
to
catch
low
to
the
ground.
They
cannot
easily
be
knocked
over.
They
are
not
like
dogs,
they
do
not
need
your
love,
they
can
thrive
anywhere
on
anything
scraps
and
trash.
They
look
witless
and
dull,
which
lulls
their
enemies,
but
they
are
clever.
They
will
remember
your
face.
C
I
wanted
them
to
have
an
auditory
presence.
I
mean
oftentimes
when
I'm
working
on
the
novels,
I
will
read
bits
of
them
out
loud,
because
I
want
to
sort
of
honor
that
original
heritage
that
they
have
coming
out
of
Homer.
Now
my
relationship
to
Homer
and
to
these
Greek
myths
goes
back
all
the
way
into
my
childhood,
starting
when
I
was
around
five
and
six
years
old.
That
librarian
mother
of
mine
started
to
read
me
little
pieces
of
The
Iliad
and
the
Odyssey
as
bedtime
stories.
C
She
also
now
thinks
it
was
really
inappropriate,
but
I
really
loved
them
and
I
actually
have
a
memory
of
her
reading.
The
first
line
of
the
Iliad
to
me,
which
goes
sing
goddess
of
the
destructive
rage
of
Achilles,
which
brought
so
much
grief
to
the
Greeks
and
I,
immediately
wanted
to
know
who
was
the
CICC
ILI's?
Why
was
he
so
angry?
Why
is
he
hurting
his
own
people?
C
I
was
totally
hooked
into
this
story,
so
she
continued
to
read
to
me
all
the
Greek
myths
that
I
could
find
and
then
once
I
could
read
for
myself,
I
did
my
own
reading.
We
were
fortunate
at
the
time
to
be
living
in
New
York
City,
so
we
would
go
to
the
Metropolitan
Museum
of
Art
and
we
would
get
to
see
their
amazing
antiquities
collection
and
they
have
just
beautiful
statues.
There
was
one
in
particular
that
I
would
just
stand
in
front
of
and
stare
at,
which
was
a
wounded
Amazon
warrior.
C
Now
we
think
of
these
statues
as
being
sort
of
that
pure
marble.
Very
Asti
are
very
pale,
very
beautiful
in
the
ancient
world
they
were
all
painted,
they
were
bright,
bright,
colors
and
so
in
this
Amazon
warrior
that
I
loved
you
could
see.
The
gash
had
been
carved
in
her
side
and
in
the
ancient
world
that
just
would
have
been
like
gushing,
red
paint,
all
down
her
side
I'm
and
it's
one
of
the
things
that
I
think
is
hardest
for
people
to
realize.
C
The
Iliad
and
I
had
thought
that
I
had
loved
these
stories
before,
but
reading
them
in
the
original
was
a
revelation
for
me
and
so
I
knew
going
off.
That
I
wanted
to
continue
to
study
this
in
college
and
in
fact,
I
did
now.
My
first
memory
of
Circe
in
particular
doesn't
go
all
the
way
back
to
my
mom.
She
I
don't
know.
C
If
she
read
me,
the
Searcy
section
I
have
a
vivid
memory
of
the
Cyclops
section,
but
I
do
remember
Circe
from
eighth
grade,
which
was
when
everyone
in
in
the
eighth
grade
in
English
class
read
the
Odyssey,
and
this
was
really
exciting
for
me
too,
because
it
was
the
first
time
that
I
had
my
own
copy
of
the
Odyssey.
That
was
really
mine
and
I
was
highlighting
and
I
was
writing
in
the
margins.
It
was
nerd
heaven
and
actually
the
other
day.
C
I
found
this
copy,
and
it's
very
embarrassing
and
like
the
notes
that
I've
written
her
but
I
was
really
excited
and
I
was
really
excited
about
the
Circe
episode
in
particular,
because
the
women
of
Greek
mythology
are,
in
general,
just
ciphers.
The
vast
majority
of
them
are
literally
just
names,
they're,
this
person's
mother
and
this
person's
daughter
and
this
person's
wife
or
so
stirrer,
and
if
their
story
is
really
exciting,
they
might
get
to
die
and
that's
kind
of
it.
There
are
a
few
of
these
big
characters
like
Madea
or
Clytemnestra.
C
C
So
that
was
very
interesting
and
I
was
also
interested
in
the
Cersei
episode,
because
it's
a
very
important
moment
in
Odysseus's
own
journey,
so
Odysseus
is
the
prince
of
Ithaca
and
when
Helen
of
Troy
runs
away,
slash
is
stolen,
depending
on
who
you
ask
all
the
Greek
kings
and
princes
and
captains
set
out
for
Troy
to
try
and
get
Helen
back
and
also
to
sacked
the
city.
Troy
was
one
of
the
richest
cities
in
the
ancient
world
and
they
spend
ten
years
there
trying
to
get
inside
the
city
and
they
can't
do
it.
C
Finally,
in
the
tenth
year,
Odysseus
comes
up
with
this
idea
of
the
Trojan
horse.
They
build
a
giant
wooden
horse
hollow
inside
they
stuff
it
with
Greek
soldiers.
The
rest
of
the
Greeks
sail
away
and
hide
just
out
of
sight
as
if
they've
gone
and
the
horses
left,
as
if
it's
sort
of
an
offering
to
the
gods,
a
gift
for
the
Trojans
and
the
Trojans
fall
for
it
and
they
pull
it
inside
the
city
and
they
have
a
big
celebration.
C
C
Absolutely
all
the
men
would
have
been
killed.
That
includes
the
boys.
The
women
and
the
girls
would
have
been
taken
as
slaves.
Everything
that
could
have
been
stripped
would
have
been
stripped
and
everything
else
would
have
been
burned.
So
after
that
the
Greeks
leave
Troy
their
ships
stiff,
stuffed
full
of
treasures
as
conquerors.
C
Now,
two
years
later,
Odysseus
is
still
not
home,
and
in
that
time,
from
having
left
Troy,
he
has
lost
11
out
of
his
12
ships.
All
of
his
ships
made
it
all
the
way
through
the
war
all
of
his
men,
pretty
much
seemed
to
have
made
it
all
the
way
through
the
war,
but
in
those
2
years
after
the
war
he's
lost
11
of
them.
C
He
goes
to
explore.
He
sees
a
little
smoke,
drifting
above
the
trees
and
he
decides
to
say
and
send
some
of
his
men
to
go,
see
who
lives
here.
Maybe
they
can
help
us?
Maybe
we
can
steal
from
them.
If
you
know
the
Odyssey,
you
know,
Odysseus
is
basically
a
glorified
pirate
in
a
lot
of
the
episodes
of
the
Odyssey
I'm.
In
fact,
that's
why
he
gets
into
trouble
with
the
Cyclops
in
the
first
place.
C
He
goes
to
the
Cyclops
s
cave
with
his
men,
and
his
men
are
kind
of
like
everything
here
is
really
big.
I
think
we
should
go
and
Odysseus
responds
by
saying:
oh,
no,
that
we're
gonna
get
a
really
great
gift.
Let's
hang
out
does
not
turn
out
well
for
him,
and
so
what
ends
up
happening
is.
Is
we
don't
really
know
the
intentions
but
they're
definitely
interested
in
who
lives
here?
C
Maybe
they
can
help,
and
so
this
group
of
Odysseus's
men
goes
up
and
they
find
this
beautiful,
palatial
home
and
in
the
garden
outside
the
home.
There
are
tame,
lions
and
wolves.
Just
sort
of
hanging
out.
The
men
are
a
little
disturbed
by
this,
but
they
continue
on
to
the
door
and
they
knock
at
the
door
and
they're
greeted
by
a
beautiful
goddess
who
says
come
in.
C
Let
me
give
you
food,
let
me
give
you
wine,
which
she
has
drugged
and
as
soon
as
they
consume
it,
she
casts
her
magical,
spell,
turns
them
into
pigs
and
drives
them
out
to
her
sty.
Now
one
of
Odysseus's
men
has
held
back.
Maybe
he
was
tipped
off
by
the
tame
lions
and
he
sees
all
this
and
he
goes
running
down
to
tell
Odysseus.
C
He
says
this
Circe
is
actually
quite
frightening
and
powerful,
so
I'm
going
to
give
you
this
herb
that
will
make
you
immune
to
her
spells
so
Odysseus
armed
with
his
herb
goes
up
to
talk
to
Circe,
and
this
was
the
moment
that
is
a
thirteen
year
old
I
was
on
the
edge
of
my
seat,
for
because
I
thought
this
is
gonna,
be
a
great
scene.
Odysseus
is
smart
and
interesting
and
she's.
Obviously
smart
and
interesting
and
they're
gonna
have
banter
and
there's
gonna
be
a
battle
of
wits
and
she
can
finally
stand
up
to
him.
C
It's
gonna
be
a
really
interesting
scene,
but
what
actually
happens
in
the
Odyssey
in
that
moment
is
that
she
tries
to
turn
him
into
a
pig.
It
doesn't
work
and
he
pulls
his
sword
on
her
and
threatens
her
and
she
screams
and
falls
to
her
knees
and
begs
for
mercy
and
invites
him
into
her
bed
in
basically,
one
breath
and
I
was
really
mad.
C
C
You
know,
I
understood
that
this
is
Odysseus
a
story
she's
the
obstacle
he's
going
on
his
journey,
so,
of
course
he
has
to
overcome
her,
but
it
just
felt
like
such
a
missed
opportunity
that
we
couldn't
just
stay
with
her
a
little
bit
longer
and
of
course
you
know
it
felt
obviously
very
gendered.
The
phallic
sword
did
not
escape
my
notice
and
so
I
wanted
I
sort
of
had
this
moment
of
like
well.
C
So
mostly
when
people
remember
her,
they
remember
the
pigs,
understandably
I
think
sometimes
people
also
confuse
her
with
Calypso,
who
was
the
other
nymph
in
the
Odyssey
who
sleeps
with
Odysseus
on
an
island,
so
I
understand
whose
name
begins
with
C.
So
I
understand
the
you
know
that
confusion,
but
Calypso
is
the
one
who
keeps
Odysseus
prisoner
for
seven
years
against
his
will,
but
Circe
after
that
moment,
where
she
sort
of
you
know
she
notices
come
to
an
understanding.
They
do
in
fact
become
lovers.
C
That
makes
you
mad
and
then
you
cross
crash
your
ship
on
their
rocks
and
then
sometimes
they
eat
you
so
she's,
the
one
who
comes
up
with
the
idea
of
put
beeswax
in
your
men's
ears.
So
they
won't
be
able
to
hear
the
sirens
enchanting
song
and
you'll
be
able
to
sail
safely
by
and
she
actually
goes
a
step
further
than
that
she
says,
but
you
Odysseus,
you
tie
yourself
to
the
mast
and
leave
your
ears
free,
and
that
way
your
men
will
carry
you
safely
by.
C
You
won't
be
able
to
jump
out
of
the
boat,
but
you
will
be
able
to
hear
the
siren
song
and
that
just
kept
sticking
with
me
because
I
thought
wow.
She
really
understands
him.
That
is
exactly
who
dizzy
Isis
the
sort
of
the
great
storyteller
of
the
ancient
world
who
would
want
to
go
home
and
say
I'm,
the
only
man
alive
who
has
ever
heard
the
siren
song
and
lived.
C
You
know
he's
gonna
dine
out
on
that
story
for
like
the
next
thirty
years,
and
she
totally
sees
that
about
him
so
that
just
even
little
moments
like
that
I
was
thinking
how
there's
a
relationship
here
she
has
insight
into
his
character.
There's
a
friendship
here
of
some
kind.
So
those
were
all
things
that
I
wanted
to
think
about
is
sort
of
bringing
back
this
balanced
portrait
of
Cersei.
That
she
isn't
just
the
villainous
witch
the
man
hater
the
spider
at
the
center
of
her
web.
C
She
also
has
this
benevolent
healing
side
at
the
same
time,
and
I
I
really
did
want
to
push
back
against
that
pretty
strongly
because
I
I've
talked
about
sort
of
her
getting
a
bad
reputation
during
the
Middle
Ages
and
the
Renaissance
in
particular,
Circe
was
kind
of
a
watchword
for
a
terrifying
woman.
I
mean
oftentimes
in
those
manuals
about
how
to
control
your
wife.
Circe
was
the
illustration
for
this
is
what
happens
if
you
don't?
C
C
And
most
of
all,
I
wanted
to
answer
answer
the
million-dollar
question:
why
is
she
turning
men
into
pigs
Odysseus,
the
most
curious
man
in
ancient
literature,
doesn't
ask
her
and
Homer
doesn't
tell
us,
and
so
we
don't
know
why.
She's
turning
men
into
pigs,
it's
always
been
sort
of
treated
in
literature
about
her
as
if
like
well,
you
know
how
women
are
they're
evil,
and
you
know
it's,
which
is
a
totally
uninteresting
answer,
particularly
for
a
novelist
I.
C
That
is
pretty
extreme
actually
and
what
would
make
someone
do
that,
and
that's
really
always
been
my
interest
in
these
stories-
is
that
Homer
I
think
implies
psychology,
but
he
doesn't
really
give
psychology.
He
shows
you
sort
of
these
larger-than-life
people
on
a
larger-than-life
screen,
you're,
never
getting
the
hamlet
soliloquy
of
one
of
these
characters,
so
part
of
what
I
love
to
do
is
kind
of
get
in
there
and
say:
okay,
here's
what
Homer
has
them
doing
now?
Who
was
the
person
that
that
would
make
sense
for
all
those
things
to
be
happening?
C
C
But
the
odd
see
at
its
core
is
the
story
of
an
exhausted
War
veteran
who
is
desperate
to
get
home
to
his
family
and
that's
what
I
love
about
them,
and
so,
when
I
was
working
on
cersei
story,
I
wanted
it
to
have
that
very
human
core
I
thought
a
lot
about
witchcraft
and
what
it
meant
to
be.
A
witch
and
I
mentioned
that
Searcy
is
kind
of
the
first
witch
in
Western
literature.
C
So
I
did
a
lot
of
research
into
other
portraits
of
witches
kind
of
throughout
literary
history,
and
there
are
a
lot
of
them.
There
are
a
lot
of
different
types
of
witches,
there's
kind
of
the
classic
hag
witch.
That's
the
Macbeth,
the
weird
sisters,
double
double
toil
and
trouble.
There's
also
the
four
in
which
you
can
see
that
in
Medea
you
can
also
see
that
in
sicker
acts,
the
mother
of
Caliban
and
The
Tempest
and
in
the
crucible
Tituba
the
character.
A
C
They're,
an
evil
witch
they're
from
someplace
else,
and
so
so
that
was
interesting.
Cersei
is
kind
of
in
the
sexy
witch
variety,
which
is
definitely
a
strain
and
I
would
argue.
Also
the
good
witch
variety
as
well,
and
one
of
the
most
interesting
things
that
I
found
out,
which
I
will
share
with
you
all,
which
has
absolutely
nothing
to
do
with
classics,
is
that
as
I
was
thinking
about
witches,
I
stumbled
across
this
early
feminists,
whose
name
was
Matilda
Joslyn
gage
Matilda,
Joslyn
gage
was
sort
of
working
with
Elizabeth
Cady
Stanton.
C
She
was
part
of
the
early
women's
rights
movement,
but
she
was
really
interested
in
witches
and
she
was
one
of
the
first
people
who
started
to
say
you
know
I,
think
all
this
burning
witches
thing
is
not
really
about
fighting
the
devil.
I
think
this
is
about
misogyny
and
you
know
which
now
sounds
really
obvious,
but
at
the
time
was
not,
and
she
actually
talked
about,
which
is
in
very
positive
light,
and
she
said
you
know
these
women
who
are
being
scapegoated
were
often
women
who
had
a
lot
of
herblore
and
herbal
knowledge.
C
But
what's
also
interesting
about
her
is
that
she
had
a
son-in-law
whose
name
was
L,
frank
Baum
and
he
wrote
Glinda
the
Good
Witch
to
honor.
Her
work
turns
out.
He
was
a
huge
feminist
and,
and
he
wanted
to
kind
of
bring
his
mother-in-law's
work
into
into
his
book,
which
totally
changed
the
way.
I
read
the
whole
Oz
series,
so
I
had
to
go
back
and
reread
it
after
that,
which
I
always
find
really
interesting
that
that
good
witches
have
been
have
been
kind
of
with
us
from
from
the
beginning.
C
C
She
has
a
staff
kind
of
like
a
wand
scholars
actually
debate,
whether
or
not
she's,
using
the
staff
to
cast
a
spell
or
whether
or
not
she's
using
it
to
drive
the
pigs,
I
actually
sort
of
fall
on
the
pig
side,
but
she
does
have
it
and
she
brandishes
it.
She
also
has
a
relationship
with
animals.
She
has
her
lions
and
wolves
kind
of
like
animal
familiars,
and
then,
of
course,
she
has
her
relationship
to
the
natural
world
poisons
potions
that
her
witchcraft
is
not
divine
power.
It's
actually
very
distinct
from
her
divine
power.
C
It's
not
you
know.
Shazam,
it's
I
have
to
grind
this.
I
have
to
harvest
it.
I
have
to
work
with
it
that
witchcraft
comes
out
of
that
tradition,
but
what
it
seemed
to
me
that
it
really
meant
when
we're
referring
to
witches
in
literature,
is
that
what
we're
really
talking
about
is
women
who
have
more
power
than
society
thinks
they
should
have.
They
have
an
amount
of
power
that
makes
society
uncomfortable,
and
so
that
was
something
I
wanted
to
explore
with
Cersei.
C
What's
interesting
also
is
how
current
that
word
still
is
if
you'd
name
any
female
politician
across
the
spectrum
and
you,
google,
their
name
and
which
you
will
go
down
a
horrible
rabbit
hole,
don't
do
it,
but
but
we
are
still
throwing
that
word
at
women
who
have
power
or
who
make
us
uncomfortable
who
are
kind
of
out
being
leaders.
We
we
still
use
it.
So
that
was
very
interesting
to
me.
C
She
just
shows
up
very
briefly
and
then
Odysseus
sails
off
and
I
wanted
to
completely
flip
that
she's
in
two
plus
books
of
the
Odyssey
Odysseus
is
in
2.
Plus
chapters
of
this
novel
and
I
did
that
very
deliberately
I
thought
you
know.
Turnabout
is
fair:
play.
Odysseus
will
expand
to
fill
all
available
space,
so
I
wanted
to
kind
of
keep
him
contained,
but
it
turns
out
that
Circe
is
actually
a
fascinating
character
and
she
has
this
whole
life
mythologically.
C
You
know
who
is
she
leading
up
to
that
and
who
is
she
once
odysseus
leaves
again
and
to
really
kind
of
tease
all
that
out
and
it
was.
It
was
really
interesting
to
do
it
because
it
was
a
very
different
exercise
than
with
song
of
Achilles.
Was
song
of
Achilles
there's
so
many
myths
about
Achilles,
but
with
Circe.
There
are
really
only
four
major
myths
and
everything
else
was
me
kind
of
filling
in
inferring,
drawing
things
out.
So
those
of
you
who
have
read
the
book
know
that
there
is
a
dramatic
Minotaur
scene.
C
I
will
tell
you,
as
a
writer.
If
you
have
the
opportunity
to
write
a
Minotaur,
c-section
scene,
I
think
you
have
to
take
it.
So
I
did
but
there's
no
there.
That
scene
does
not
exist
in
ancient
mythology,
although
it
should,
but
but
Circe
really
is
the
sister
of
the
mother
of
the
Minotaur,
and
so
it
made
sense
to
sort
of
include
her
in
those
moments.
So
I
looked
for
moments
like
that
where
there
was
a
possibility
for
her
to
be
included.
C
You
know,
naturally,
even
if
the
scene
wasn't
written
in
mythology,
so
I
was
kind
of
piecing
together.
Her
life
and
I
always
started
with
Homer
he's
always
sort
of
my.
My
touchstone
and
Homer
gave
this
really
fascinating
description
of
her,
which
just
kind
of
hung
around
and
hung
around
and
hung
around,
and
this
is
really
the
difference
between
approaching
this
stuff
as
a
novelist
and
as
an
academic
and
I
I.
C
Don't
sort
of
separate
between
like
creative
and
non
creative,
because
I
think
academic
writing
is
actually
very
creative,
but
in
terms
of
not
having
to
really
prove
your
point
and
just
allowing
sort
of
things
to
kind
of
bubble
up
and
germinate,
and
what's
the
thing
that
you
just
keep
returning
to
and
one
of
the
things
that
I
kept
returning
to?
Is
this
throw
away
description?
Homer
has
of
her
where
he
describes
her
as
the
dread
goddess
who
speaks
like
a
human,
the
dread
goddess
who
speaks
like
a
human
and
that
just
caught
me?
C
What
does
that
mean
to
be
a
goddess?
Who
speaks
like
a
human?
You
know,
of
course
it
implies
that
there's
a
way
to
speak
like
a
God
in
a
way
to
speak
like
like
a
human
and
that
those
are
very
different
and
we
we
know
how
God's
speak
from
the
ancient
literature,
because
we
see
it
in
both
Homer
and
in
Virgil
and
in
others
that,
when
a
God
talks
to
you
when
a
God
talks
to
a
hero,
the
hero's
hair
stands
on
end.
It's
this,
like
electrifying,
terrifying
experience.
You
fall
down
to
your
knees.
C
You
immediately
offer
you
know
your
your
prayers
to
them.
If
the
God
doesn't,
you
know,
has
their
their
divinity
turned
all
the
way
up.
You
can
even
incinerate
if
Zeus
appears
in
front
of
you,
and
so
that's
what
it
feels
like,
but
Circe
somehow
doesn't
have
that
she
talks
like
a
human.
So
what
does
that
mean
and
I
associated
the
ancient
Greek
gods?
I
have
actually
a
very
negative
portrait
of
them.
They
were
pretty
horrendous.
If
you
look
at
the
ancient
mythology,
they
were
Petty
and
selfish.
C
They
held
grudges.
They
were
constantly
obsessed
with
their
own
pleasure
today
we
would
call
them
sociopathic
narcissists
and
that's
the
family,
sir
she's,
born
into
as
opposed
to
humanity,
which
we
have
our
narcissists,
but
for
the
most
part,
humanity
is
actually
capable
of
a
lot
more
empathy
than
the
gods
are
in
the
stories
and,
in
fact,
I
think.
Empathy
is
humanity's
greatest
gift
and
the
literature's
greatest
gift.
That's
really
what
stories
are?
Is
they
help
grow
empathy
and
the
people
who
listen
to
them?
C
C
And
my
answer
is
always
nothing
absolutely
nothing,
because
when
you
start
digging
into
the
stories,
the
three
thousand
years
separating
them
and
us
just
completely
disappear
that
as
I
said,
these
are
really
stories
about
humanity
and
they're
stories,
about
sort
of
people
doing
things,
and-
and
you
can
see
that
Circe's
experience
as
a
woman
in
this
world,
where
she
lives
alone.
That
makes
her
target
she's
struggling
to
be
heard.
She's,
often
kind
of
kept
from
the
halls
of
power,
she's
ignored,
she's,
undermined.
All
these
things
are
things
we
are
still,
unfortunately,
struggling
with
the
day.
C
We've
made
some
progress,
but
a
lot
of
that
is
still
out
there
and
I
wanted
to
show
some
of
those
pressures
that
were
on
ancient
and
modern
women,
and
also
on
ancient
and
modern
men
that,
along
with
looking
at
all
the
ways
that
this
society
constricts
women
I,
also
wanted
to
look
at
sort
of
how
some
of
the
male
characters
are
dealing
with
this,
because
in
a
society
that
is,
you
know
constricting
50%
of
its
population.
It's
not
just
going
to
be
50%,
and
so
this
brought
me
to
Odysseus
his
son
Telemachus.
C
It
was
an
important
piece
of
the
novel
and
I've
always
thought
it
would
be
very
difficult
to
be
Odysseus
as
son
and
I
wanted
to
look
at
sort
of
what
does
it
mean
if
you
don't
want
to
be
a
hero
like
your
father?
What,
if
you
don't
want
to
fall
in
the
epic
path?
Can
you
make
a
different
choice?
What
are
the
pressures
on
you
and
in
in
sort
of
looking
at
that?
C
I
was
drawing
actually
not
on
an
ancient
work,
but
on
a
famous
poem
by
Tennyson,
called
Ulysses,
which
is
Odysseus,
has
come
back
home.
He's
defeated
the
suitors
he's
taken
back
over
ethica
and
he's
gotten
bored,
and
now
he
wants
to
go
out
and
have
another
adventure,
and
the
poem
itself
is
really
inspiring.
C
In
fact,
it's
very
quotable,
it's
drink
life
to
the
Lee's
and
strive
to
seek
to
find
and
not
to
yield
it's
about
Odysseus
trying
to
head
out
to
the
horizon
human
curiosity,
the
human
desire
to
know
and
to
keep
learning,
all
of
which
is
very
positive.
But
he
also,
as
Odysseus,
is
talking
in
this
poem.
He
talks
about
Penelope
as
his
agent
wife.
He
doesn't
even
name
his
wife
Penelope,
the
woman
who
waited
for
him
for
20
years.
C
He
just
calls
her
his
aged
wife
and
then
he
talks
about
his
son
and
what
he
says
about
his
son
Telemachus
as
he
says.
Well,
if
ACCA's
really
boring
and
Telemachus
is
boring,
so
that's
great
Telemachus
can
stay
home
and
deal
with
it.
The
kind
I'll
go
out
and
have
an
adventure,
and
so
that
really
kind
of
gave
me
I,
I
didn't
think
I
was
gonna,
use
the
poem
as
a
source,
but
the
more
I
thought
about
it
and
the
more
I
thought
about
it.
C
I
thought
yes,
I
see
something
here,
there's
something
here,
and
so,
when
I'm
looking
at
these
things,
I
talked
about
kind
of
Homer.
Being
you
know
my
touchstone
but
I
also
throw
up
in
the
doors
and
I
allow.
You
know
lots
of
little
bits
from
everywhere
to
go
in
I'm
a
little
bit
of
a
magpie.
So
in
the
questions,
if
people
do
want
to
know
about
sources,
I
never
lead
with
sources,
because
I
feel
like.
Sometimes
people
really
don't
want
to
know
about
my
sources.
C
But
if
you
do
ask
the
question,
I
can
I
can
elaborate
more
about
that,
and
there
is
a
lot
more,
that
I
can
say
about
sort
of
myth
and
Circe
and
and
reframing,
but
I'm
gonna,
say
one
more
thing
and
then
I
want
to
get
to
your
questions
because
I
hear
you
all
are
a
great
audience
and
you
have
really
good
questions.
So
the
last
thing
I
want
to
say
is:
is
oftentimes
people
say
well?
How
do
you
feel?
How
do
you
feel
like
you,
have
the
right
to
tell
these
stories?
C
You
know
these
are
these
are
culturally
beloved
stones
and
I
sort
of
have
two
answers,
a
general
answer
and
a
specific
answer.
The
general
answer
is:
is
that
actually
retellings
are
as
old
as
homer
himself
that
these
stories
were
originally
told
by
multiple
bards
in
different
ways
and
that
as
soon
as
even
the
Iliad
and
the
Odyssey
existed,
they
were
being
retold
in
Greek
tragedy.
They
were
being
retold
by
by
the
lyric
poets
and,
of
course,
you
know,
Virgil
the
great
fanfiction
estuve
all
time
writing
the
Aeneid.
C
Let's
do
it
again,
but
from
the
Trojan
perspective,
so
you
know
this
idea
of
retelling.
The
ancients
would
have
absolutely
recognized
it
because
it
was
part
of
that
tradition.
Myths
are
not.
There
is
no
such
thing
as
sort
of
a
definitive
myth.
Myths
live
because
they
are,
we
told
and
retold,
and
you
know,
I
can't
hurt.
C
Homer
he's
gonna
be
fine,
but
the
the
specific
answer
to
that
question
is
actually
also
that
I
feel
that,
in
the
case
of
Circe
in
particular,
Homer
is
really
inviting
me
in
because
in
the
Circe
episode
the
narrator
is
not
Homer
or
whoever
the
bard
is.
It's
Odysseus
himself
part
of
the
Odyssey
is
told
by
Odysseus
to
some
people
he's
staying
with
and
so
he's
telling
that
whole
story
and
when
you
start
to
realize
that
Odysseus
is
the
one
telling
the
Circe
story.
You
start
to
realize
how
incredibly
self-serving
it
is.
It's
like.
C
Oh
there
was
this
terrifying
witch,
but
then
I
totally
tamed
her
and
then
she
threw
herself
at
me
and
she
was
super
hot
and
he
goes
on
and
on
about
how
beautiful
Circe
is
and
how
lovely
she
isn't
Circe
of
the
beautiful
braids,
and
but
you
realize,
as
he's
doing
this,
the
person
he's
really
praising
is
himself.
This
really
makes
him
look
good
and
so
I
thought
well.
Wow
Homer
is
really
giving
me
this
opportunity
here
is
Circe.
C
D
That
was
wonderful.
Can
you
all
hear
me?
My
name
is
Mary
Kelly
and
I'm
delighted
to
be
here
this
evening.
Is
your
moderator-
and
you
gave
us
such
a
wonderful
introduction
to
the
book
that
everything
I
have
here
has
already
been
covered,
pretty
much
in
terms
of
questions,
but
I
will
say
this
could
I
have
just
members
of
the
audience
who
are
in
book
clubs
please
raise
their
hands.
Oh
my.
D
Is
the
book
club
crowd?
Yesterday
we
discussed
Cersei
at
my
book
club
and
I.
Have
another
book
club
that
will
be
discussing
it
next
week
and
I
will
have
to
say
that
we
probably
had
the
very
best
discussions
of
I
mean
we
could
have
still
been
there
right
talking
about
questions
in
the
relevancy
today,
of
the
characters
that
we
really
found
spoke
to
us
as
21st
century
women.
A
D
I
wanted
to
thank
you
for
your
comments
about
your
mother,
the
librarian,
because
I
also
am
a
librarian
and
spend
a
lot
of
time
at
the
library,
but
the
the
stories
you
told
about
the
introduction
of
the
classics
and
how
that
really
formulated
your
career.
Basically,
that
was
a
wonderful
story
and
having
just
celebrated
Mother's
Day
last
week.
D
This
work
is
what
I
would
call
a
a
dense
read
and
by
saying
that,
I
mean
that
in
the
most
complimentary
way,
it
is
not
the
kind
of
book
that
you
can
skim
and
and
get
the
the
gist
of
it.
You
have
to
read
every
word,
because
it's
so
richly
put
together
and
every
sentence
gives
you
insight
into
character
or
nature
or
whatever.
So
thank
you
for
your
beautiful,
beautiful
prose.
D
I
have
several
quotes
here
that
resonated
with
me,
and
some
of
them
that
we
talked
about
yesterday
and
part
of
what
I
think
is
is
so
rich
about
the
character
that
you
develop
is
that
she
was
born
into
this
world
where
most
people
are
most
of
the
guides.
Were
quite
content
with
the
world
they
lived
in,
I
mean
what
why
wouldn't
they
be,
they
could
feed
they
could
you
know,
make
mortals
friendship,
very
you
know,
act
and
and
nymphs,
especially,
and
so
there
was.
D
There
was
a
quote
here
that
I
thought
was
quite
telling
in
terms
of
what
their
world
was
really
like,
and
it's
this
Brides
nymphs
were
called,
but
that
is
not
really
how
the
world
saw
us.
We
were
an
endless
feast
later,
how
it
upon
a
table,
beautiful
and
renewing,
and
so
very
bad
at
getting
away
so
seriousiy
gets
away,
she's
banished.
C
So,
as
you
as
you
say,
Cersei
is
a
nymph
and
in
the
world
of
Greek
mythology
the
world
is
incredibly
hierarchical
and
so
up
here
at
the
very
top
you
have
Zeus
and
Helios
and
Athena
and
Hera
and
Poseidon
and
all
kind
of
the
big
names.
And
if
you're
one
of
those
gods
life
is
pretty
good.
You
basically
get
to
do
whatever
you
want.
Occasionally
the
fates
will
get
in
the
way,
but
pretty
much
you
know.
If
you
want
to
destroy
something,
you
can
destroy
it.
C
Nymphs
are
always
the
ones
who
are
being
assaulted,
they're
being
raped,
they're
being
passed
off
to
husbands;
they
don't
want
to
marry.
They
have
very,
very
little
agency
in
their
life
and
I
think
it
would
be
a
terrible
thing
to
be
a
nymph,
and
yet
this
is
who
Cersei
is
born,
and
so
part
of
what
I
was
really
interested
in
is
well
she's
born
that.
But
then
we
see
her
with
all
this
power.
What
happens
and
part
of
what
happens
is
that
she
decides
to
invent
her
own
power.
B
C
C
C
You
know
her
subjects
around
her
and
in
order
to
do
that,
she
basically
has
to
terrify
everybody
so
much
that
no
one
will
mess
with
her,
and
so
she
is
actually
dealing
with
a
lot
of
the
same
stuff
that
Cersei
is
dealing
with,
but
she
has
to
choose
this
different
path
because
she
wants
to
be
in
the
world
where
Cersei
wants
to
break
with
the
world.
She
wants
to
make
a
new
world
a
new
space
where
you
don't
have
to
do
that,
and
so
so
her
her
exile
was
something
that
was
I.
D
One
of
the
things
that
hit
me
early
on
was
her
encounter
with
the
punishment
of
Prometheus,
and
they
think
we
saw
right
on
that.
She
was.
She
was
not
a
typical
goddess
or
nymph,
because
she
really
showed
compassion.
She
you
can
drink
and
anyways
thirsty
and
broke
all
kinds
of
rules
in
doing
that,
so
I
think
early
on,
we
learned
that
she
had
that
human
capacity
to
to
empathize
and-
and
we
saw
that
develop
throughout
the
book.
She
didn't
turn
all
men
into
swine.
D
She
was
judicious
about
who
she
she
did
so
I
think
we
learned
that
here
was
a
woman
that
had
or
my
goddess
nymph
that
was
apart
from
from
the
world
that
she
had
born
into,
and
so
this
continually
evolution
we
we
saw
with
her
I
think
we'd,
better
move
on
to
some
of
the
audience
questions.
Here's
one!
What
advice
can
you
give
a
senior
in
high
school
who's
interested
in
studying
classics?
Do
you
have
any
significant
memories
of
your
time
as
a
student.
C
So
I
don't
know
where
you
are
whoever
this
is,
but
but
if
you
love
it
absolutely
keep
going
with
it
and
College
is
your
senior
in
high
school?
Is
that
right?
Because
college
is
gonna
open
up
this
whole
all
these
new
vistas
I'm
in
classics?
There
are
so
many
wonderful
classics,
professors
out
there
who
are
really
not
only
great
scholars
but
great
teachers
and
I
hope
that
you
will
have
some
and
you
know,
make
sure
that
you've
read
all
the
little
course
descriptions.
You
know
little
reviews
of.
C
Is
this
a
good
professor
and
take
take
the
classes
with
with
the
best
professor
I
feel
like
I,
don't
know
who
I'm
talking
to,
but
so
I
I
think.
Sometimes
people
get
a
little
nervous
about
majoring
in
classics
because
they
think
well.
This
is
gonna,
be
like
I'm,
not
gonna
get
a
job,
so
I
will
pass
on.
I
will
pass
on
to
two
sort
of
things
about
that.
One
is
that
I
went
on
from
being
I
didn't
know,
I
was
going
to
write
novels
about
this
and
and
and
become
a
novelist.
C
What
I
was
going
to
do
was
teach
in
high
school,
which
is
a
wonderful
job
if
you
love
classics
and
a
wonderful
way
to
keep
classics
alive
and
to
kind
of
pass
on
the
torch
and
keep
it
burning.
But
the
other
thing
is
I've
actually
heard
from
a
lot
of
there's
gonna
sound,
really
strange,
but
a
lot
of
like
Wall
Street
hedge
fund
managers,
computer
people,
marketing
people
who
are
all
like.
Oh,
we
always
hire
the
classicist
because
they
know
how
to
think
so.
C
I
passed
that
out
there
in
case,
but
I
would
also
say
that
you
know
this
is
I,
am
a
huge,
huge
proponent
of
the
liberal
arts
and
I
think
that
you
know,
even
if
there
isn't
a
job
where
you
can
use
your
classics,
that
these
stories,
whether
or
not
you're
taking
classics
or
whether
or
not
you're
taking
you,
know,
poetry,
and
you
know,
Spanish,
poetry
or
whatever,
whatever
liberal
arts
subject
you're.
Taking
that
all
this
stuff
will
continue
to
feed
you
for
your
whole
life,
and
it
will
make
you.
D
Talked
about
this
at
book
club
yesterday,
the
disc
is
sort
of
personality
that
the
MU
is
a
very
difficult
person,
obviously
to
to
be
around
and
I
was
very,
as
you
mentioned
prideful,
but
we
thought
a
lot
of
what
he
exhibited
in
his
men
exhibited
was
what
today
we
would
call
post-traumatic
stress,
and
so
were
you
were
you
thinking
about
modern-day
soldiers
coming
back
from
the
wars
that
we
have
in
our
lifetime,
as
you
were,
rethinking
this
story
as
well.
Absolutely.
C
So
the
idea,
the
name
for
PTSD
is
new,
but
the
idea
of
PTSD
and
the
experience
of
PTSD
is
very,
very
old,
and
the
ancients
made
it
very
clear
that
they
understood
it.
You
can
see
it
in
the
tragedy.
Phillip
TT's,
you
can
see
it
in
the
tragedy
Ajax.
In
fact,
there
are
a
number
of
modern
organizations
that
read
those
plays,
in
particular
with
veterans
returning
from
war
to
because
they
find
it
so
relevant
and
resonant
with
their
own
experiences.
C
His
wife
they've,
been
threatening
his
son
they've,
been
eating.
All
his
stores
they've
been
trying
to
get
Penelope
to
marry,
one
of
them
they're
saying
he's.
Never
coming
back,
marry
one
of
us
and
in
the
world
of
Greek
mythology,
it
kind
of
makes
sense
for
Odysseus
to
slaughter
them
all,
which
is
what
he
does
and
that
sort
of
feels
fair
and
within
the
rules.
C
You
just
killed
all
our
sons
to
start
killing
them
as
well
and
what
you
can
see
in
that
moment,
I
think
and
I
and
I
think
a
lot
of
people
have
seen
is
sort
of
you
know
he
is
used
to
dealing
with
the
Cyclops
and
now
he's
come
home
to
his
little
island,
and
you
know
I
think
he's
struggling
a
little
bit
to
reenter
his
old
life
and
to
sort
of
respond
not
with
that
overwhelming
threat.
There's
a
there's,
a
wonder
full
book,
actually,
all
about
this
called
Odysseus
in
America
by
a
wonderful
writer.
C
C
He
was
sort
of
saying
this
sounds
like
what
I'm
hearing
from
all
these
veterans
from
Vietnam
and
he
actually
a
lot
of
the
book
is
him
sort
of
putting
you
know,
stories
from
Vietnam
veterans
and
passages
of
the
Odyssey
next
to
each
other,
and
it's
really
amazing,
as
I
said,
that
the
difference
in
time
just
completely
collapses
and
I
think
there's
sort
of
two
things.
I
was
thinking
about
with
Odysseus
in
particular.
C
D
In
the
art
world
they
say
all
art
is
contemporary,
meaning
that
when
we
look
back
on
what
we
now
consider
classic
art
at
one
time
that
was
contemporary
and
this
really
resonates.
As
you
said,
you
don't
have
to
do
anything
to
bring
it
up
to
date.
If
it
really
speaks,
speaks
I
do
have
a
question
about
a
question
about
how
you
think
Circe
would
do
they
made
to
movement.
C
So
one
of
the
eeriest
experiences
of
my
life
was
to
be
in
final
edits.
First
Circe,
while
all
the
me
to
stuff
was
breaking
I,
would
be
working
on
a
scene.
I
would
check
the
news.
It
would
be
exactly
what
I
had
been
writing
about.
I
would
move
to
another
scene.
I
would
check
the
news.
It
was
that
scene
also
and
I.
You
know,
I
had
always
passionately
believed
that
this
was
incredibly
relevant,
but
seeing
it
play
out
in
like
real
time,
was
really
disturbing.
I
think
she
would
certainly
you
know.
C
I
think
Circe
sees
a
lot
of
the
things
you
know
she
sees
women
who
are
not
believed
she
herself
has
not
believed
in
at
some
points
in
the
novel.
You
know
when
I
think
about
me
too.
Actually,
the
character
I
think
about
is
yes
Cersei,
but
also
the
character
of
Cassandra,
who
you
know
there
is
a
character
with
absolutely
no
time
between
the
ancient
world,
and
today
here
is
a
woman
who
a
man,
the
god
Apollo
tries
to
rape
her.
She
refuses
him.
C
He
curses
her
to
always
tell
the
truth
and
never
be
believed
and
I
mean
what
I
think
a
lot
of
women
can
experience.
I
have
experienced
that
of
trying
to
tell
trying
to
tell
your
story
and
no
one
will
listen
to
you
so
I
see
you
know
the
connections
again
between
the
ancient
and
the
modern
world
as
being
very,
very
close,
very.
D
C
So
madea's,
as
I
said,
is
Circe's
in
some
versions
of
the
mythology
of
Circe's
nice,
and
so
she
is
in
my
novel.
I
feel
like
I
got
to
have
my
little
Medea
exploration
and
actually
that
scene
there.
So
there
is
a
scene
in
the
novel,
that's
kind
of
a
spoiler,
but
it
is
also
a
3,000
year
old
source.
So
I
don't
know
if
that
counts.
But
there-there
is
an
ancient
piece
of
literature
that
we
have
called
the
argonautica
by
apollonius
of
rhodes,
which
is
all
about
jason,
going
to
get
the
Golden
Fleece
and
Madea.
C
They
do
something
really
horrible,
because
Medea
has
I,
guess
thought
ahead
and
brought
her
brother
with
her
when
she
escapes-
and
she
says
you
know
what
would
really
slow
my
father
down.
If
we
cut
my
brother
up
into
little
pieces
and
threw
them
over
the
side,
then
he'd
have
to
stop
and
pick
them
all
up.
C
Jason
says
great
idea,
so
they
do
this.
They
throw
the
pieces
over
a
Greek
mythology
is
gruesome.
The
father
does
indeed
stop
to
pick
them
up
and
Circe
and
Medea
and
Jason
get
away.
However,
Medea
and
Jason
in
the
argonautica
are
now
suffering
from
blood
pollution.
They
have
committed
this
sort
of
crime,
blood
crime
on
a
relative,
and
so
they
have
this
miasma
around
them.
That's
actually
a
Greek
word
me:
asthma.
C
It
means
blood
pollution,
and
so
they
stopped
off
on
Circe's
Island
to
be
purified
and
Medea
does
not
reveal
who
she
is
and
she
does
not
reveal
what
they
have
done
until
after
it's
kind
of
all
accounted
for,
so
I
knew
I
was
going
to
use
that
source
and
I
knew.
I
was
gonna,
write
that
scene
and
although
we
know
that
that
they
show
up
on
Circe's
Island,
the
conversation
between
Cersei
and
Medea
is
not
really
recorded,
and
so
I
was
gonna.
C
You
know
that
was
all
my
imagination,
so
I
sort
of
feel
like
I,
got
to
dip
my
toe
into
Medea
and
I'm,
not
sure
I'm
gonna
go
back
for
right
now,
I
I
think
there's
so
many
wonderful
retellings
of
her
story,
but
she's,
not
the
character.
That's
really
possessing
me,
I
feel,
like
I
got
to
have
my
little
Madea
moment.
The
the
thing
about
her
that
that
really
I
found
interesting
in
terms
of
writing.
Cersei
is
two
things.
One
is
that
I
think
she's
very
young.
C
When
all
this
happens,
you
know
she
would
have
been
1516.
So
that
was
interesting
to
me,
but
also
the
fact
that
she
and
Cersei
have
actually
suffered
from
a
lot
of
the
same
things.
They
both
have
horrendous
fathers,
they've
suffered
from
abuse
as
children
and
what
happens
for
people
who
do
that
in
their
childhood
is
sometimes
that
actually
makes
you
more
empathetic
and
more
aware
of
other
people's
suffering
and
that's
kind
of
the
path
that
Cersei
has
taken.
But
Medea
has
kind
of
taken.
C
C
C
You
know,
and
Persephone
is
trying
to
escape
from
that
there's
so
many
different
lenses
to
look
at
that,
and
if
you
are
interested
in
Hades
and
Persephone
I
highly
recommend
the
Louise
Gluck
poems
that
are
in
Aveiro,
which
is
her
collection
that
deals
with
that.
So
there
they're,
wonderful
and
really
interesting,
so
no
plans
for
Hades
and
Persephone
right
now,
but
I
totally
think
it's
a
great
story
and
there
there's
can
never
be
enough
versions
of
it.
C
So
if
any
of
you
out
there
thinking
I
empower
you
to
write
it,
I
have
two
things:
I'm
thinking
about
next
I
didn't
really
talk
about
this
today,
but
kind
of
the
other
piece
of
my
education
that
has
been
incredibly
inspiring
for
me
is
theater
and
Shakespeare
in
particular,
and
what
actually
caused
me
to
connect
classics
and
was
theater
I
directed
a
production
of
Troilus
and
Cressida,
which
is
Shakespeare's
version
of
the
Iliad,
and
so
all
these
characters
are
in
it.
Achilles,
Odysseus,
Hector,
Ajax
and
Shakespeare
lets
them
all.
C
Have
it
it's
a
vicious
nasty
funny
bitter
play,
it's
great
I,
highly,
recommend
it,
and
so
that
that
was
really
kind
of
the
big
gift
that
launched
me
on
this
whole
other
career
of
directing
Shakespeare
plays,
which
I
credit
with
teaching
me
a
lot
about
storytelling
in
general,
but
I've
been
thinking
about
the
tempest
for
a
really
long
time,
and
so
the
tempest
has
sort
of
been
it's
also
about
magic
and
witches
in
islands.
So
it's
been
kind
of
germinating
in
the
background
and
then
at
the
same
time
the
Aeneid
Virgil
is
great
poem.
D
C
C
Maybe
yes,
she
she
is
brilliant
and
the
translation
is
brilliant
and
it
captures
the
exciting
nosov
Homer
I
mean
I.
Think
people
sometimes
forget
that
these
were
things
that
people
went
to
go
see
on
purpose
and
you
know,
but
she
really
captures
how
fun
and
exciting
and
suspenseful-
and
you
know,
I
found
myself.
Obviously
The
Odyssey
is
a
text.
I
know
very
well,
but
I
was
reading.
Her
and
I
was
like
Odysseus
gonna
get
out
of
this.
C
You
know,
and
so
I
knew
she
had
done
a
good
job
and
and
I
I
think
that,
should
honestly,
the
translation
that
is
read
in
schools
now
and
I
think
it
would
bring
a
lot
of
people
into
the
story
and
be
much
more
accessible.
I
mean
one
of
the
things
that
I
think
is
really
frustrating
for
me
as
a
teacher
of
classics.
Is
that
lots
of
times
I
think
people
are
kind
of
intimidated
by
the
classics
and
they
see
it.
C
Is
this
elite
thing
and
I
can't
understand
it
and
I'm
not
sure
I
can
say
the
names
which
I
totally
understand?
First
of
all,
we
don't
have
any
recordings
of
ancient
Greek,
so
you
know
we
have
reconstructed
pronunciation,
but
I
I
encourage
you
all
to
just
go
for
it
with
the
names
you're,
probably
hitting
some
version
of
them.
But
in
terms
of
in
terms
of
that
it,
you
know,
Homer
himself
was
not
elite
at
all.
As
I
said,
this
is
all
oral
tradition.
This
is
stuff.
You
know,
parents
are
telling
their
children
grandparents
are
telling.
C
C
So
I'm
I'm
very
hopeful
that
there's
a
little
bit
of
a
resurgence
and
I
have
always
found
that
when
students
come
in
my
classroom
on
the
first
day
and
they're
like
I,
don't
know
about
the
India,
this
is
gonna,
be
really
bad,
but
as
soon
as
you
start
telling
the
stories
they
totally
get
it,
they
immediately
get
the
connections
between
the
ancient
world
and
the
modern
world,
and
they
see
themselves
in
the
stories.
So
I
have
never
had
a
class
that
didn't
that
didn't
yea
respond,
they'd
not
respond
to
her.
D
C
The
song,
the
the
relationship
song
of
Achilles,
is
narrated
by
petroglyphs,
who
is
Achilles.
His
closest
companion,
he's
called
the
most
beloved
companion
of
Achilles
by
Homer,
and
their
relationship
has
basically
been
debated.
Pretty
much
since
the
Iliad
exists
and
sort
of
the
the
two
basic
basic
camps
are
Homer
doesn't
say
that
they're
lovers,
therefore
they're
not
Homer,
doesn't
explicitly
say
they're
lovers,
because
it
would
have
been
so
obvious
to
an
ancient
audience
that
they
didn't
have
to
say
so
and
you
can
see
in
the
ancient
world.
Both
interpretations
are
totally
out
there.
C
Plato
takes
them
as
lovers.
We
have
a
fragment
of
a
lost
Aeschylus
tragedy
with
Achilles
mourning
over
patrol
glasses
body.
Sorry,
that's!
A
big
spoiler
petroglyphs
dies
Achilles
mourning
over
petroglyphs
his
body
and
talking
about
their
frequent
kisses.
So
that's
clearly
an
interpretation
where
their
lovers
Xenophon,
the
historian,
said
no
they're,
the
closest
of
friends,
not
lovers
so,
but
both
traditions
absolutely
existed
in
the
ancient
world
and
I
felt
based
on
my
reading
of
the
Iliad.
That
Achilles
is
grief
for
Patroclus
feels
so
physical.
He
holds
the
body
all
night.
He
embraces
it.
C
He
you
know,
presses
kisses
on
it.
He
it's
it's
very
physical
mourning
and
just
the
way
that
happens,
and
he
wants
their
ashes
to
be
mingled
together
in
an
urn
after
they're
dead,
and
so
in
my
reading,
I
I
sort
of
that's.
What
resonated
with
me
is
to
take
them
as
lovers
and
I
also
felt
frustrated
by
the
fact
that
that
tradition,
that
interpretation
had
basically
dropped
out.
I
was
not
seeing
it
taught.
I
was
not
seeing
it
referenced.
I
felt
like
it
had
been
kind
of
you
know,
basically
closeted
and
so
I
wanted
to.
C
You
know,
bring
that
interpretation
back
as
a
way
to
look
at
their
relationship
and
and-
and
you
know
to
make
the
case
for
that
I.
My
editor
said:
I
want
you
to
be
prepared
for
hate
mail,
I
am
happy
to
say:
I
have
received
like
less
than
four
pieces
of
hate
mail.
In
my
entire
life.
For
the
most
part,
people
were
incredibly
supportive.
C
I
was
thrilled
with
how
supportive
they
were
and
I
think
classicists
were
actually
leading
the
charge
on
being
supportive,
because
classicists
know
that
that
is
totally
within
the
tradition
and
and
and
a
valid
interpretation.
So
it
was
very
important
for
me.
I
would
not
have
written
that
book
any
other
way,
except
with
their
love
story
at
the
center
and
I
was
thrilled
that
I
received
such
minimal
pushback.
It
was
really
very
heartening
actually.
D
And
I
think
that's
a
statement
of
how
far
we've
come,
also
going
into
to
think
that
at
one
time
that
may
have
been
a
controversial
thing
for
you
to
to
enter
into,
and
your
editors
were
still
worried,
but
good
that
that
it
turned
out
as
as
it
did,
let's
see
what
else
have
we
not
covered?
Did
you
have
a
colicky
baby.
C
Do
I
cannot
imagine
you
know
a
more
epic
thing
than
birth
if
you've
lived
through
it.
If
you've
supported
someone
through
it,
you
know
if
you've
seen
someone
who's
recently
given
birth.
It
is
an
epic,
life-changing,
high
stakes,
experience
and
so
I
really
wanted
that
to
be
part
of
Sergi
story,
because
in
the
mythology
she
is
a
mother
and
I
wanted
to
give
it
its
proper
weight.
You
know
even
goddesses
struggle
with
babies
screaming
at
3:00
a.m.
in
the
morning.
D
C
They
had
send
me
an
initial
cover
by
the
most
authors.
Don't
have
a
say
you
sort
of
get
to
like
offer
input,
but
not
have
a
have
veto
power,
but
they
had
sent
me
an
original
cover
that
was
kind
of
very
pale.
It
was
like
marble
and
austere
and
I
looked
at
it
and
I
was
like
I,
don't
know.
Could
we
try
something
else?
Please
and
so.
They're
like
okay,
all
right,
we'll
take
one
more
shot
at
it,
and
then
this
is
what
they
came
back
with
and
I
was
like
done.
C
D
C
Well,
one
of
them,
I
am
have
not
even
finished,
but
it
has
vaulted
into
my
favorite
books
of
all
time,
which
is
the
overstory
I.
Don't
know.
If
any
of
you
have
have
read
it.
Please
read
it
I
feel
like
I'm
in
tears
on
every
other
page
I
mean
if
you
read
it.
If
you
look
at
the
description
of
it's
like
this
is
about
trees,
but
it's
about
so
much
more
than
trees.
So
you
must,
you
must
read
it.
It
is
beautiful
and
just
mind-blowing,
so
I
think
I'd
have
to
bring
the
overstory
with
me.