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From YouTube: C.J. Chivers - Authors Visiting in Des Moines (AViD)
Description
Journalist C.J. Chivers is one of this generation’s most revered war correspondents and a two-time Pulitzer Prize winner for The New York Times. His magazine story, “The Fighter,” won the 2017 Pulitzer Prize in Feature Writing, and he was part of a team of journalists awarded the 2009 Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting. Chivers served as an infantry officer in the United States Marine Corps in the Persian Gulf War. In 2018, he released his book, The Fighters, a vivid account of modern warfare told through the stories of a half-dozen American combatants serving in the Middle East conflicts.
https://dmpl.org/cj-chivers
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https://amara.org/v/C0suO/
A
Good
evening,
everyone,
my
name,
is
Trevor
Mears
I
am
with
the
Des
Moines
Public
Library
Foundation
Board.
Welcome
to
the
sixth
and
final
2019
avid
event.
Since
2001
there
have
been
144
avid
events
attended
by
forty
eight
thousand
three
hundred
and
ninety
two
people,
just
like
you
avid,
is
possible
with
the
leadership
of
Tim
and
the
Community
Engagement
Team
and
input
from
the
volunteer
selection
committee.
We
appreciate
sue
woody.
The
library
director,
Des
Moines
native
sue,
began
her
role
as
director
in
July
of
last
year.
A
We're
also
grateful
for
the
excellent
staff
at
all
of
the
Des
Moines
Public
Library
locations
who
enhanced
quality
of
all
of
our
lives.
Every
day,
the
Des
Moines
Public
Library,
Foundation
and
executive
director
Jory
Briles
raised
the
funds
for
avid
summer
reading
the
school
readiness
programming
for
children,
teens
and
adults,
and
new
public
access
computers,
foundation
funding
supports
87%
of
the
library's
free
programs,
bringing
outstanding
authors
like
CJ
Chivers
for
avid
free
programs,
the
latest
technology
and
improving
the
library
collections.
It
all
takes
more
money
than
our
tax
dollars
can
provide.
A
A
Getting
information
from
that
helps
us
secure
funding
for
future
avid
events
and
also,
if
you
leave
your
card
at
the
information
table,
you
would
get
a
chance
in
a
drawing
to
win
a
box
of
Hallmark
cards
as
well
as
an
autographed
copy
of
Nick
Nolte's
book
rebel
life
outside
the
lines,
laughter,
ripples
through
the
crowd
at
the
mention
of
Nick
Nolte.
As
always,
if
you
purchase
a
book
tonight
from
Beaverdale
books
and
have
your
book
autographed
by
the
author,
10%
of
the
sales
are
donated
to
the
library
foundation.
A
We
want
to
thank
some
of
our
volunteers
and
sponsors
who
make
our
program
possible.
They
are
the
premier
sponsor
of
the
Des
Moines
Register,
the
nationwide
foundation,
Principal
Financial
Group
Brad
and
Kelley
ed
mr.
humanities
Iowa,
a
state-based
affiliate
of
the
National
Endowment
for
the
Humanities,
cultivating
passion,
the
dr.
Richard
dimming
Foundation,
Mary
Kay
and
Daniel
M
Kelly
Family
Foundation,
the
Oh
Brian
Fitzpatrick
foundation,
Karen
chef
and
Steve
Jane,
dr.
Katherine
and
Andrew
Houser,
Pamela
bass,
bookie
and
Hara
bookie
Harry
book.
A
Excuse
me:
Shelley
and
Martin
Brody,
mary
richie
douglas
and
debra
West,
Don,
Taylor
Judy
blank
and
Mary
Ann
and
Robert
Sobiech.
Our
moderator
tonight
is
Kathleen
Richardson
who's,
the
Dean
of
the
school
of
journalism
at
Drake,
University
Kathleen
was
an
editor
and
writer
for
the
Des
Moines
Register
and
Tribune
for
20
years
and
has
been
at
Drake
since
1997.
A
She
served
as
executive
director
of
the
Iowa
freedom
of
information
Council
from
2000
to
2015
and
tonight
we're
very
excited
to
spend
time
with
CJ
Cheevers,
a
long-form
writer,
an
investigative
reporter
who
works
with
the
New
York
Times
Magazine,
and
the
investigations
desk.
His
peeled
surprise.
Winning
cover
story
for
the
magazine
in
2016
led
to
the
release
from
an
Illinois
prison
of
an
Afghan
war,
veteran
suffering
from
post-traumatic
stress
disorder.
Mr.
A
Jeffers
was
a
Marine
Corps
infantry
veteran
of
the
Persian
Gulf
War,
and
he
also
had
peacekeeping
duties
during
the
Los
Angeles
Riots
in
1992
before
transitioning
to
journalism
in
1994.
He
joined
the
times
in
1999
and
worked
in
the
New
York
City
Police
Bureau.
Through
the
attacks
on
the
world
trade
center
of
2001,
he
then
became
a
foreign
correspondent
focusing
on
conflict,
human
rights
in
the
arms
trade,
on
assignments
in
Afghanistan,
Iraq,
the
Palestinian
territories,
Chechnya,
Libya,
Syria
and
elsewhere
in
2009.
A
He
was
part
of
a
team
that
won
a
Pulitzer
Prize
for
some
of
that
coverage.
Mr.
Cheevers
first
book
was
2010's
the
gun,
a
history
of
automatic
weapons
and
the
consequences
of
their
mass
distribution,
seen
through
the
development
of
the
ak-47
and
a
personal
note,
I
carried
that
book
to
India
with
me
and
back
a
few
years
ago,
and
it
was
far
more
entertaining
than
the
in-flight
movies.
So
thank
you
for
that.
His
latest
book
is
the
fighters
which
focuses
on
the
2.7
million
Americans,
who
have
served
in
Afghanistan
or
Iraq
since
September
11th
mr.
A
Cheevers
reported
from
both
wars
from
their
beginnings,
the
fighters
vividly
conveys
the
physical
and
emotional
experience
of
war
as
lived
by
six
combatants,
a
fighter
pilot,
a
corpsman,
a
scout
helicopter
pilot,
a
grunt,
an
infantry
officer
and
its
forces
sergeant
about
the
fighters.
The
Christian
Science
Monitor
said
this:
a
masterful
work
of
atmospheric
reporting.
It's
a
book
that
will
have
every
reader
asking
with
varying
degrees
of
urgency
or
anger
or
despair.
The
final
question
shivers
himself
ask
how
many
lives
have
these
wars
wrecked
you'll
have
an
appart
opportunity
to
ask
mr.
A
B
So
before
we
get
going
say,
thank
you
and
I
have
particular
reasons,
probably
not
why
you're
always
thank
you
for
coming
out,
which
is
can't
hear
me.
Let
me
lower
it
I'm,
not
as
tall
as
you
just
better
so
I'll
start
over
I
want
to
say
thank
you
before
I
get
started
and
and
I'm
gonna.
Thank
you
for
a
different
reason.
Then
you're
usually
thanked
for
turning
up
at
a
library
which
is
this
I
come
from
families
with
long
lines
of
American
military
service
on
both
sides,
maternal
and
paternal
sides.
B
What
I'm
gonna
say,
I
hope
makes
you
uncomfortable
and
I'm
glad
you're
here,
I'd
say
it
to
six
people,
and
we've
got
a
lot
more
than
that.
So
thank
you.
I
want
to
begin
with
an
umbrella
thought,
so
you
know
my
framing
lenses
as
I
say
what
I'm
gonna
say
and
read
what
I'm
gonna
read:
I'm
gonna
show
a
video
too.
The
thought
is
this:
I
am
unapologetically
negative
about
the
organization
of
the
recent
american-led
Wars.
B
The
ongoing
wars
in
Afghanistan
and
Iraq
I'm
a
negative
about
the
organizing
ideas
behind
them
and
the
practicalities
and
outcomes
that
have
resulted
but
I'm
also
indelibly
empathetic
to
the
people
who
showed
up
in
good
faith
in
uniform.
To
do
this
country's
bidding
with
the
spirit
of
public
service.
B
B
I'm
I'm
struck
by
their
Admiral
admirable
notions
of
public
service
I'm,
going
to
share
some
of
that
today,
but
you
will
hear
from
me
mostly
sorrow
and
anger,
so
I'm
gonna
as
I
take
this
lens
a
little
further
down
into
focus.
I'm
gonna
ask
you
to
share
my
angle
of
inquiry
for
a
few
minutes
tonight.
That's
pretty
simple!
It's
this
I
believe
that
the
history
and
the
public
discourse
of
wars,
most
all
wars,
but
including
the
two
under
discussion
here,
contain
too
much
general
and
not
enough.
B
Sergeant
this
evening,
I'm
gonna
ask
you
to
think
through
the
experiences
of
sergeants
and
people
near
sergeants.
These
are
the
men
and
women
who
actually
fought
and
suffered
in
our
Wars
and
whose
stories
and
perspectives
are
overwritten
by
official
bull
and
self-serving
accounts.
We're
gonna
look
at
a
video
shortly,
I'd
like
to
declare
a
fact
about
these
lenses.
So
you
know
you've
already
heard
it,
but
I
was
once
one
of
these
guys.
I
was
a
cookie
cutter
officer
of
grunts.
You
know
the
type!
B
If
you've
served
a
product
of
the
weapons
and
tactics,
hatcheries
engaged
and
animated
by
a
martial
ethos
and
since
I
set
aside
weapons
and
uniforms
and
allowed
my
allergy
to
Authority
fully
blossom
within
me,
I've
made
combatants
a
subject
of
immersive
study.
I
happened
to
be
present
by
chance
at
the
attacks
with
hijacked
aircraft
on
the
World
Trade
Center
in
2001.
I
was
a
few
blocks
away
when
it
began
entirely
by
chance
and
I've
spent
much
of
the
long
run
of
years.
B
This
is
CJ
Cheevers
of
the
New
York
Times,
the
Marines
of
kilo
Company
3rd
battalion.
Six
Marines
had
been
pushing
through
Marja
a
Taliban
held
area
in
southern
Afghanistan.
The
Taliban
were
resisting
often
their
tactic
is
to
hit
and
run,
and
they
are
known
as
accomplished
shots,
but
on
this
day
they
masked
an
attack
to
Marine
platoons.
They
also
had
at
least
one
man
with
them.
The
Marines
considered
to
be
a
sniper
which
was
unusual.
B
C
B
B
C
B
Sniper
is
likely
using
a
rifle
like
these,
which
were
found
hidden
in
an
Afghan
home
several
hundred
yards
away.
There
lian
fields,
one
was
made
in
1942.
In
the
right
hand,
it's
still
deadly.
The
Marines
here
were
working
on
a
clear
and
early
step
in
the
phases
that
now
define
American
counterinsurgency
doctrine.
The
goal
was
to
push
the
Taliban
out
of
the
area
so
that
government
might
be
established
and
security
transferred
from
American
to
Afghan
hands.
They
expected
this
fight.
They
expect
more
in.
C
C
C
B
Lance
Corporal
vu
Colo,
though
he
had
barely
been
exposed.
Lance
Corporal
Colo
had
been
shot
through
the
shoulder.
His
bad
luck
was
mixed
with
good
the
round
missed
the
bone.
This
was
his
second
combat
tour.
He's
the
son
of
a
Vietnam
veteran
at
first
there
was
dread,
but,
as
his
friend
sensed
his
luck,
the
jokes
began.
B
B
Instant
of
good
fortune
means
little.
The
next
after
the
cola
was
shot.
Marines
working
at
a
distant
camp
fired
at
least
one
guided
ground-to-ground
missile
to
help
kilo
companies
fight.
The
ordinance
did
not
hit
the
compound
from
which
these
Marines
were
taking
fire.
It
hit
another
nearby,
several
hundred
yards
to
the
left.
At
least
twelve
Afghan
civilians
were
killed,
including
five
children.
An
ugly
day
turned
uglier
for
everyone
involved
and
presented
the
Marines
in
Marja
with
a
fresh
challenge.
When
the
fighting
would
finally
let
up,
then
they
would
be
seeking
civilian
support.
B
A
B
The
building
needed
to
care
so
I
want
to
describe
what
happened.
The
American
medevac
helicopter
descended
toward
a
shattered
home
on
the
Afghan
steps.
Weeping
grit
against
its
mud-walled
remains
gunfire:
cracked
passed
inside
the
ruins
several
young
infantrymen
from
kilo,
Company
3rd
battalion,
six
Marines
crouched
near
the
bodies
of
freshly
killed
civilians,
the
Italian
eleven
corpses
so
far,
all
but
two
were
women
and
children.
Two
American
rockets
had
struck
here
a
short
while
before
a
pair
of
errant
blows
in
a
battle
between
the
Marines
and
the
Taliban
that
began
on
the
morning
of
Valentine's
Day.
B
In
the
seconds
after.
As
a
dusty
smoke
cloud
rose,
a
small
girl
scrambled
to
help
for
a
moment
she
stood
still
and
she
ran
sprinting
headlong
to
another
nearby
building
which
the
Americans
occupied
as
a
temporary
outpost.
Her
father
was
detained
inside
soon.
The
Marines
were
hustling
across
the
field
crossing
the
open
space
where
a
gunfight
had
raged
for
hours
when
they
entered.
They
found
one
more
survivor:
a
young
woman
lying
in
a
pool
of
blood.
She
was
calling
out
children's
names.
B
The
blast
had
severed
both
her
legs
and
one
of
her
arms
covered
with
dirt
streaked
with
blood
she
moaned
and
repeatedly
asked
for
the
kids.
She
tried
sitting
up
a
corpsman
and
a
few
Marines
consoled,
her
a
lieutenant
and
a
sergeant
with
radios
called
their
commanding
officer
seeking
a
Blackhawk
medevac
aircraft
to
rush
the
woman
to
care
around
her.
The
bodies
of
her
family
were
scattered
where
they
had
died
not
far
from
dead
poultry
and
sheep
gently.
B
The
Marines
assured
the
dying
woman
that
all
would
be
okay,
the
Pentagon
and
the
manufacturer
of
the
weapon
that
struck
here
known
as
a
high
Mars,
considered
its
ordnance
to
be
precise.
It's
GPS,
sensors
and
guidance
system
helps
the
rock
it's
fly
scores
of
miles
and
slammed
earth
within
feet
of
the
coordinates
they
were
programmed
to
hit
each
carried
a
high-explosive
warhead
and
a
fuse
that
can
be
set
to
burst
in
the
air,
maximizing
the
spread
of
shrapnel
below
the
manufacturer
markets
them
as
low
collateral
damage
weapons.
B
This
is
true
on
practice
ranges
battlefields,
rarely
resemble
ranges
more
often
they're
the
lands
where
people
live
and
work,
and
in
this
profoundly
poor
village.
The
Pentagon's
precision
weapons
had
hit
precisely
the
wrong
place.
A
sniper
had
been
firing
on
the
Marines
from
near
another
home,
but
the
Rockets
landed
here.
B
A
family
following
an
American
instruction
stay
inside
and
out
of
the
way
had
been
almost
instantly
destroyed
by
the
time
the
Blackhawk
arrived,
the
woman
had
died,
the
aircraft
flew
into
a
trap,
automatic
fire
erupted,
Kalashnikov
rifles
joined
in
the
Taliban
had
been
waiting
and
ambushed
the
aircraft
as
its
wheels
settled
toward
the
ground.
The
lieutenant
and
Sergeant
ran
into
view
arms
waving,
awarding
the
pilots
off
their
company
commander,
shouted
to
a
radio
operator.
B
Abort
abort
tell
him
to
abort
the
helicopter
lurched
forward,
gathering
speed
a
rocket-propelled
grenade
whooshed
into
the
swirling
tower
of
dust,
an
explosion,
berm
beep
boomed
behind
the
Black
Hawks
tail
rotor
a
near
mess.
The
helicopter
flew
across
the
field,
landed
banked,
put
down
near
the
company
commander
to
pick
up
a
wounded
marine.
It
was
Travis
for
Kola
who
you
saw
a
few
months
ago
whom
the
sniper
had
shot.
Then
it
was
gone.
A
lull
replaced.
B
The
den
young
men
muttered
curses
inside
the
compounds,
Afghan
soldiers
working
with
the
Marines
covered
the
dead
with
cloth,
a
Taliban
commander
overheard
on
his
own
radio
frequency
berated,
his
fighters
in
Pashto
for
missing
the
Blackhawk
he'd
almost
realized
his
prize.
That
was
your
chance.
He
said
these
Marines
were
almost
all
young
men
on
their
first
enlistment,
the
type
of
citizen
who
serves
for
years
and
returns
to
civilian
life.
B
They
were
thoroughly
trained,
visibly
fit
thoughtfully,
equipped
and
generally
eager
to
participate
on
what
they
were
told
would
be
a
historic
fight,
a
campaign
preordained
for
American
military
lore.
Most
of
them
were
also
so
new
to
war
that
the
dead
women
and
children
were
the
first
casualties.
They
had
seen.
Many
of
them
wanted
then,
and
still
want
now,
to
connect
their
battlefield
service
to
something
greater
than
a
memory
real
of
gunfights
explosions
and
grievous
wounds.
They
wanted
to
understand
accidental
killings
as
isolated
mistakes
in
a
campaign
characterized
by
sound
strategy,
moral
authority
and
lasting
success.
B
They
didn't
get
this
at
least
not
all
of
it.
Instead,
the
major
general
commanding
NATO
forces
in
southern
Afghanistan
circulated
a
publicly
palatable
version.
The
high
Mars
rockets,
he
said
it
the
correct
building.
After
all,
four
years,
the
Marine,
Corps
and
Pentagon
said
little
more,
even
as
Marja
seized
by
Marines
and
then
held
by
their
Afghan
army
and
police
partners
returned
to
Taliban
and
drug
baron
control.
B
This
book
is
about
the
men
and
women
who
served
in
American
combat
service
in
the
wars
in
Afghanistan
and
Iraq
that
followed
the
terrorist
attacks
2001.
It
covers
these
combatants
with
a
simple
organizing
idea
that
they
are
human.
It
details
personal
experiences.
What
these
experiences
were,
how
they
unfolded,
what
effects
they
had
upon
those
who
were
there
and
it
covers
them
from
their
own
perspectives,
offering
their
own
interpretations
of
their
wars.
B
More
than
3
millions
Americans
have
served
in
Afghanistan
or
Iraq
since
late
2001
and
he
went
to
both
wars.
Nearly
7,000
of
them
died.
Tens
of
thousands
more
were
wounded:
President
Donald
Trump's,
former
chief
of
staff,
retired
Marine
Corps
General,
John,
F
Kelly
lost
the
son
in
combat
in
Afghanistan
and
under
whom
I
briefly
served
three
decades
ago.
When
he
led
the
course
trains.
New
marine
infantry
officers
calls
DS
men
and
women
the
best
1%.
This
country
produces
he.
D
B
Most
of
you
as
Americans,
don't
know
them.
Many
of
you
don't
know
anyone
who
knows
anyone
of
them.
This
book
is
an
effort
to
remedy
that
in
part
through
demystification.
In
doing
so,
it
also
rejects
many
senior
officer
views
it
channels.
Those
who
did
the
bulk
of
the
fighting
with
the
unapologetic
belief
that
the
voices
of
combatants,
of
the
lower
and
middle
rank
are
more
valuable
and
more
likely
to
be
candid
and
rooted
in
battlefield
experience
than
those
of
the
generals
and
admirals
who
order
them
to
action
and
often
try
to
speak
for
them
too.
B
I'm
hoping
in
the
room,
there
are
some
fellow
humanitarians
I'm
sure
this
library
attracts
people
interested
in
the
traditions
of
the
liberal
arts
and
in
critical
thinking
skills,
but
maybe
a
few
of
you.
After
what
I
just
read
and
what
I
just
showed
you
on
the
video
are
thinking.
So
what
right
happens?
B
B
B
B
You
know
that
I'm,
not
a
member
of
any
political
party,
I,
don't
like
either
of
them
and
I
reserve.
Most
of
my
withering
criticism
for
my
own
former
service,
the
Marine
Corps
in
to
which
one
of
my
sons
is
likely
now
headed
so
I,
don't
pull
my
punches
and
I,
don't
shoot
from
the
red
state
or
the
blue
state
I,
just
say
what
I
feel
in
here.
So
let's
say
it:
our
wars
were
characterized
by
mission
creep
and
strategic
drift
and
tragically
flawed
expectations.
B
The
Islamic
state
did
not
exist
until
after
we
invaded
Iraq
it
formed
and
metastasized
and
spread
in
occupation
and
has
since
foster
terrorism
across
much
of
the
world
exactly
the
type
of
crime.
A
global
war
on
terrorism
is
supposed
to
prevent.
Another
reason
we
were
given
for
the
wars
was
protection
of
populations,
Afghan
and
Iraqi.
B
There
are
many
estimates
on
the
number
of
civilian
deaths,
but
the
American
wars
between
direct
military
action
and
the
violent
social
forces
that
American
military
action
unleashed
has
resulted
in
100,
hundreds
of
thousands
of
dead
across
Afghanistan
Iraq
and
now
neighboring
Syria.
This
doesn't
count
the
wounded
or
the
displaced,
and
it
doesn't
count
the
vast
destruction
of
not
just
property.
On
the
small
scale
like
the
home
in
the
video
you
just
saw,
but
entire
neighborhoods
and
cities
raised
like
Ramadi
and
Raqqa,
which,
before
these
wars
started,
were
fully
functioning
and
intact.
B
Parts
of
Middle,
Eastern
culture,
heritage
and
society
now
their
rubble,
that's
not
protection
of
populations
and
people
who
still
use
such
stock
phrases
should
be
ashamed,
creating
Afghan
and
Iraq
Iraqi
security
forces
that
would
stand
on
their
own.
Another
reason
that
we
were
given
in
different
years
of
the
campaign
for
our
continued
investment
of
our
blood
and
treasure.
B
We
have
made
or
deputized
well,
north
of
a
million
armed
men,
paid
them
and
train
them
and
equip
them
with
weapons
and
all
manner
of
other
equipment
and
an
outsize
fraction
of
these
men
have
simply
vanished,
yielding
their
weapons
and
sometimes
their
skills
to
American
foes.
This
is
the
human
and
logistical
clay
of
that
overworked
phrase
forever
war,
and
it's
on
us
and
we'll
be
paying
for
it
for
years
beyond
those
in
which
the
American
organizers
of
these
wars
retire
in
comfort
and
prestige.
B
Yes,
I
should
add.
Some
of
these
forces
do
still
stand
mixed
with
militias
and
supported
by
American
and
Iranian,
and
other
national
programs
and
funds,
but
they're
poorly
led
and
they're,
brutal
and
they're
small
compared
to
their
design
and
they're.
Nothing
like
a
value
I
should
also
add
as
a
humanitarian,
that
they
suffer
and
die
routinely
in
quantities
that
far
out
see
far
exceed
our
own
casualties
eradication
of
poppy.
You
guys
probably
remember
that
one.
B
This
video
was
shot
in
papí
belt,
which
is
notable
as
we
built
that
irrigation
area
under
a
USAID
program
in
the
1950s
and
previous
generations
of
pie-eyed
Americans
had
seen
it
as
an
agricultural
belt.
Well
became
an
opium
production
engine,
it's
still
producing
poppy.
Today,
women's
rights
is
getting
the
idea.
B
These
wars,
in
short,
on
the
Pentagon's
and
our
government's
own
terms,
were
practical
failures
on
a
grand
scale.
How
did
we
get
there
we
can
bandy
about
and
if
we
want
dismantle
the
ideological
tropes
like
American
exceptionalism
or
the
doctrinal
absurdities
like
trying
counterinsurgency
doctrine
with
conventional
troops
in
a
short
time
in
occupied
countries,
but
let's
just
talk
numbers
rough
numbers
will
allow
us
to
show
the
depth
of
our
conceptual
failure
and
I
think
from
conceptual
failures.
B
Practical
failures
naturally
follow.
So
let's
do
the
math
rough
math.
You
know
back-of-the-envelope
level
stuff
if
you're
googling
me
to
fact-check
me
as
I.
Do
this
on
your
phone
you'll
see
I'm
round
in
my
numbers
a
bit
so
I
declare
that
at
the
outside,
but
I'm
gonna
give
you
three
numbers:
the
first
numbers,
30
million.
B
The
second
number
is
180,000,
and
the
third
number
is
100,000
now
I'm
going
to
define
my
what
these
are
values
for
30
million.
That's
roughly
the
population
of
Afghanistan.
It's
also
roughly
the
population
of
Iraq
I.
Give
you
a
guess.
Anyone
know
another
entity
was
30
million
people
all
right.
Texas
Texas
is
about
30
million
people
180,000,
that's
the
number
at
peak
during
the
surge
years
of
Americans
in
uniform
in
Afghanistan
I'm.
Sorry
in
Iraq,
during
the
surgery,
late
President,
Bush
100,000
is
mid
first
term
President
Obama.
When
the
surge
had
moved
to
Afghanistan.
B
We
had
about
a
hundred
thousand
Americans
in
uniform
on
the
ground
in
Afghanistan
round
about
the
time
that
this
video
was
made
and
a
little
bit
after
30
million
180,000
and
a
hundred
thousand.
Now,
let's
take
a
rack
off
the
map.
Let's
take
Afghanistan
off
the
map
and
put
Texas
on
the
map
who,
in
the
room,
thinks
we
could
take
a
hundred
and
eighty
thousand
American
to
go
down
to
Texas
overthrow
its
government,
establish
a
new
constitution
set
up
a
bunch
of
outposts.
B
Tell
them
we're
gonna,
change
your
schools
and
tell
them
that
we're
here
to
help
and
you're
gonna
get
along
with
us,
we'll
be
here
10
years
or
so.
These
are
our
appointed
local
representatives.
We're
gonna
run
some
elections
for
them,
we're
gonna,
have
them
elected
and
they're
gonna
become
your
government.
How
do
you
think
that's
gonna?
Go
now,
try
it
with
a
hundred
thousand
people,
which
is
what
we
did
in
Afghanistan,
now
think
about
the
difference
between
Texas
and
these
others.
B
B
How
did
we
ever
get
into
a
circumstance
where
conceptually
we
thought
this
was
possible?
And
how
do
we
square
this
with
our
D,
our
ideas
about
who
we
think
we
are
and
then
think
about
what
yo,
the
six
people
who
I
profiled
in
this
book
went
there
to
these
places
to
do
their
best
for
us
and
I
think
had
their
good
face
and
their
labor
betrayed?
That's
it!
You
can
throw
your
shoes
now
if
you
wish.
E
E
E
E
It
provided
insight
into
the
military
culture
and
mindset,
which
I
think
is
very
very
valuable.
So
the
question
that
I
have
and
I
encourage
you
all
please
to
write
down
your
questions
and
and
the
our
helpers
will
will
pick
them
up.
But
my
question
for
you
is
that
we
live
in
Iowa
and
there's
something
that
goes
on
here.
A
little
thing
that
goes
on
here
every
four
years
called
the
Iowa
caucuses,
so
I'm
kind
of
curious.
E
How
many
people
in
this
group
have
seen
a
presidential
candidate,
yet
how
many
of
you
have
seen
more
than
one
presidential
candidate?
How
many?
How
yeah
in
the
flash,
how
how
many
people
have
seen
all
of
them
who
have
come
through
it's
hard
this
time
around,
but
how
many
of
you
intend
to
see
all
of
them?
If
you
can
so
you
know,
people
in
Iowa
take
their
their
politics
very
seriously,
and
so
the
question
I
would
have
for
you
Chris.
Is
that
these
these
people
are
your
proxies.
You
know
they
they're
going
to
be.
E
They
could
very
well
be
talking
to
every
presidential
candidate
in
in
their
living
room
or
go
to
somebody
else's
living
room.
So
what
a
few
months
ago,
the
the
Des
Moines
register
published
the
Iowa
poll
and
asked
potential
voters
what
they
thought
their
top
issues
were
in
this
campaign,
and
they
were
things
like
you
know:
health
care
and
climate
change
and
race
relations,
but
the
only
thing
that
was
even
vaguely
international
was
trade.
E
B
Me
start
somewhere
else.
You
said
on
your
list
of
issues
that
were
important
to
voters
this
time
around
the
wars
didn't
show
up.
Nothing
really
related
to
the
military
showed
up
on
that
list.
I'd
argue
that's
by
design,
there's
something
that
changed
in
this
country.
In
my
lifetime,
when
we
got
out
of
I
was.
E
B
In
1964
and
I
remember
the
Vietnam
War
my
dad
was
in
the
Vietnam
War
we
had
selective's,
we
had
Selective
Service.
Then
we
had
the
draft.
We
had
conscription
and
Americans
went
to
war.
Now
there
were
exceptions
and
there
were
unfair
assumptions
baked
into
the
draft.
We
had
a
draft
that
essentially
served
as
a
National
Lottery
to
go
to
war,
and
when
that
happened,
people
had
a
stake
and
people
paid
attention.
B
They
interrogated
and
examined
the
foreign
policies
and
wondered
what
they
thought
about
these
foreign
policies,
because
they
could
have
their
own
lives
or
their
children's
lives
where
their
friends
lives
called
to
go,
serve
and
take
on
the
risks
of
wars
that
we
now
know
didn't
work
out.
Then
either
we
got
rid
of
the
draft
right
before
a
few
years
before
I
came
into
the
military.
B
When
we
got
rid
of
the
draft
something
happened,
we
got
a
self-selecting
group,
an
all-volunteer
fighting
class
that
showed
up
for
its
own
reasons,
and
nobody
else
had
to
worry
about
going
to
war.
At
all,
my
argument
and
I
say
this:
a
lot
is
the
thing
you
don't
have
to
worry
about
affecting.
You
is
the
thing
you
stopped
thinking
about,
and
so
we
don't
think
about
the
wars.
B
You
don't
have
an
incentive
to
think
about
the
wars
and
unless
you
have
come
from
a
family,
that's
serving
in
them
or
unless
you
really
have
an
interest
in
foreign
policy
or
military
affairs
doesn't
amount
to
very
much
of
us.
So
to
answer
your
question:
I've
puzzled
for
a
long
time.
How
do
you
get
politicians
to
pay
attention
to
the
wars?
And
the
answer
is
I?
Don't
know
I
mean
there's
a
thought
exercise.
We
sometimes
engage
in.
B
B
18
to
25,
you
can
be
drafted
regardless
of
your
gender,
no
exemptions.
If
we
ran
this
draft,
then
you'd
have
everyone's
attention.
You
imagine
be.
The
best
TV
show
ever
write
everyone
to
be
tuned
in
wondering
if
they
were
gonna
be
or
someone
they
knew
was
gonna
be
called
to
serve
and
I
would
argue.
If
we
had
this
draft.
These
wars
would
not
have
gone
as
they
did
right.
I'd
argue
that
the
people
might
show
up
and
levitate
the
Pentagon
and
ask
it
what
the
hell
it's
doing,
absent
that
kattiline
I'm.
B
A
B
I'm
against
it
he's
also
a
young
man.
He
can
make
his
own
decisions.
I
felt
I
have
a
moral
duty
to
tell
him
what
I
know
and
I've
expressed
it
to
him.
I'm.
Also
mindful
that
my
father,
a
Vietnam
vet,
told
me
I
was
nuts
to
join
the
Marine
Corps
in
the
1980s,
and
it
it
all.
It
did,
was
Hasson
hastened
my
journey
into
that
cave,
so
I
don't
have
a
lot
of
influence
over
my
son
I've
connected
him
to
many
veterans.
B
I've
urged
him
to
talk
with
a
lot
of
people
and
try
to
make
an
informed
decision.
A
lot
of
people
join
the
Marine
Corps
because
they
want
to
be
part
of
something
like
a
special
Club.
They
have
a
sense
of
special.
They
already
have
a
sense
of
public
service,
and
then
they
want
to
be
a
part
of
an
organization
that
has
an
ethos
of
public
service.
They
want
to
join
that
Club
and
then
there's
something
else.
The
military
does
it's
one
of
the
few
quick
routes
towards
young
adult
validation
in
this
country.
B
Right,
if
you
go
in
and
a
couple
of
years
you
kind
of
have
a
stamp
on
you
of
serving
that
is
recognized
across
much
of
the
society.
There's
nothing
else
really
like
that.
I've
said
to
my
son,
so
you
want
to
join
a
cool
Club
he's
already
a
year-round
surfer.
He
surfs
through
the
winter
in
a
wetsuit
and
the
Atlantic
Ocean
he's
a
tough
kid
he's,
a
good
kid
he's
a
fit
kid
he's
a
bright.
E
A
B
You
know
you
like
to
think
there's
a
long
arc
of
recovery,
but
in
his
case
it
was
a
long,
long,
long,
deep
descent
into
pain
into
excessive
drinking
and
he'll
popping.
You
know
painkillers
into
divorce
into
suicidal
ideation
and
then
the
suicide
attempt
into
a
loss
of
sense
of
purpose
aimlessness
that
can
result
after
being
in
a
tight
unit,
with
a
real
mission
to
being
alone
and
cast
outside
because
of
your
wounds.
B
Eventually,
doc
got
in
I.
Guess
the
plaintiffs
way
to
say
it
is
a
new
face.
Robbo
know
the
surgeon,
David
Hirsh
in
New
York
helped
him
rebuild
his
face
repositioned
his
jaw
gave
him
new
dental
implants
and
realigned
things
so
that
they
worked
and
I
guess
he's
doing
really
well.
I'm
actually
see
him
takes
third
time.
Seeing
him
just
gonna
go
out,
live
no
one
tweet
this
he
doesn't
know
I'm,
showing
up
seeing
him
at
an
event
done
on
Saturday
he'll,
be
in
the
city.
B
He's
doing
really
well
he's
about
to
be
honored
Doc's,
that
you
call
it
a
success
story
out,
I,
don't
know,
but
doc
has
had
a
much
better
outcome
and
he's
changed.
His
trajectory
and
I
find
him
pretty
inspirational
climb
out
of
the
hole
he
was
in
and
be
what
he
is
doing,
what
he
is
now
he's
working
again.
B
A
B
I
think
these
are
universal
experiences
of
war
or
sucks,
or
is
bad
for
you.
You
know,
as
far
back
as
we
can
go
into
the
literature
cross
culture.
As
we
see
this
evidence,
one
of
my
embarrassments
as
a
young
man,
I
realized
at
some
point.
I
was
opting
to
go
to
war
and,
at
some
point
sort
of
my
soul
kind
of
rejected
this
I
kind
of
revolted
years
and
years
into
it
and
I
realized.
You
know
everything
I
know
and
learned.
Experientially
was
already
in
the
literature
already
there.
Why
didn't?
B
I
buy
and
I
had
read
some
of
that
stuff
before
I
went
in
a
lot
of
it?
Why
didn't?
Why
didn't
I
buy
it
so,
as
for
PTSD
I
think
we
have
ample
evidence
in
the
literature
that
this
is
an
old
condition
that
we
have
finally
begun
to.
You
know:
lessen
the
stigma
of
and
accept
socially
so
I
think
it
is
more
prominent
in
our
culture
now
for
cultural
reasons,
not
because,
as
a
matter
of
like
epidemiology,
it
exists
at
a
different
rate
among
combatants
today
than
it
did
it
did
before.
B
E
A
B
Realized
I'd
spent
all
these
years
out
there
with
different
units,
doing
different
things
in
different
places
and
in
other
wars
too.
Away
from
these
I
realized
that
I
wanted
to
make
a
halt.
You
know
the
accumulation
of
what
I
had
learned
tried
to
cohere
into
something
more
than
1,200
and
1,500
word
news
stories
and
then
I
as
I
got
going
on
that
I
thought
this
might
be
cathartic
right.
Maybe
this
is
gonna
like
rinse
the
brain.
It
didn't
work
that
way.
B
I
got
more
and
more
angry
that
deeper
I
went
in
because
I
started,
unloading,
everybody
else's
go
with
mine
and
so
I
thought
I
mean
it's
trauma.
The
word
know
I
know
I,
don't
feel
traumatized
by
writing.
The
book
I
feel
like
I,
deepened
and
broadened
my
understanding
of
the
human
costs
of
the
wars.
The
human
experience
of
the
wars
and
I.
D
A
B
Lot
of
that
I
don't
know
that
that's
a
trauma,
I
mean
I,
have
a
asked
about
PTSD.
You
know,
I
have
a
way
of
thinking
about
it.
I
think
PTSD
is
totally
natural.
You
know,
if
you
go
into
the
forest
long
enough,
you
become
a
forest
creature.
You
go
into
these
stories
long
enough.
They
become
part
of
you,
pretty
simple
I,
just
I
accept
it.
I
accept
that
war.
Changed
me.
I
went
to
a
lot
of
therapy
and
I
got
a
lot
better.
B
I
lowered
my
hyper-vigilance
I
can
now
go
into
a
restaurant
and
sit
with
my
back
to
the
door.
I,
don't
travel
with
you
know,
first,
aid
kits
and
seat
belt
cutters
and
all
that
stuff
I
can
take
my
kids
to
the
grocery
store
and
I,
don't
think
about
where
the
exits
are,
how
to
herd
them
safely
out.
If
something
happens,
I've
dimmed
a
lot
of
that
down
and
as
I
started
to
get
better
I
was
still
really
tough
and
I
decided
to
stop
going
to
therapy.
B
B
Where
I
got,
let's
say,
2/3
better
I
thought
you
know,
that's
that's
pretty
good!
I'll!
Take
it
right
there.
You
know.
So
you
some
people.
You
know
you
play
a
lot
of
football.
You
walk
away
with
a
limp.
You
go
to
war,
a
long
time
you
leave
with
a
scowl
I'm.
Alright,
with
that
I
traumatized
I
know
you
guys
can
I
just
probably
some
shrinks
in
the
room.
You
tell
me
I
got
thick,
sir
I
got
thick
skin
shut
it
out.
A
B
Right
I
wanted
people
who
were
distinct
from
each
other
and
I
wanted
people
if
I
assembled
them
in
linear
fashion
in
aggregate
together
would
deliver
many
of
the
particular
repeated
common
experiences
of
the
wars
in
Afghanistan
and
Iraq.
So
I
had
hundreds,
like
you
said
two
people
I
knew
and
then
I
kind
of
went
through
my
memories
of
those
I
knew,
and
so
who
was
hit
by
an
ie
D
who
was
in
on
an
ambush
who
got
ambushed.
B
A
B
Except
I
only
had
six,
you
know,
beds
in
the
birthing
area
and
so
I
chose
six.
Who
I
thought
in
aggregate
would
give
me
a
book
that
if
one
person
read
it
and
like
you
said
you
didn't
know
military
culture,
castling
and
I
get
it
most.
People
don't
I
thought
if
someone's
gonna
spend.
You
know
a
few
nights,
reading,
300
or
350
pages.
When
they
get
done
with
my
book,
they
will
know
intimately
at
the
human
level.
Many
of
the
most
common
experiences
and
outcomes
of
this
war.
B
I
also
tried
to
choose
one
person
who
I
thought
was
doing
pretty.
Well,
does
not
everyone
came
home.
You
know
with
the
same
intensity
of
struggle
as
dr.
B
did
and
later
turned
out
that
as
I
got
to
know,
characters
who
I
thought
were
doing
a
little
better,
so
I
chose
initially
as
I
really
immersed
myself
in
their
experience
and
I
tried
to
download
their
brains.
I
realized
they
weren't
doing
that.
Well
either
they
just
had
you
know
hidden
it.
E
B
B
That's
a
tough
one
though
I
also
have
found-
and
this
is
going
to
maybe
disappoint
some
view,
but
I'm
pretty
firm
in
it.
That
they've
also
included
a
number
of
Marines
in
the
initial
discussion
and
I.
Don't
know
how
accurate
the
discussion
is
and
I
don't
know
what
will
actually
be
borne
out,
but
they've
included
some
marines
who
urinated
on
dead
taliban
and
to
me
there's
a
difference
between
that
and
murdering
a
prison
prisoner,
I'm
not
endorsing
any
of
it,
but
I
also
think
that
these
aren't
like
apples
and
oranges.
A
B
Know
especially
since
the
Marines
who
were
involved
in
the
urination,
were
you
know
on
the
court
of
military
appeals,
as
you
know,
for
court
martials
are
appealed,
have
determined
that
there
was
undo
command
influence
and
they
may
have
been
there.
Prosecutions
may
have
been
essentially
predetermined
by
command
influence,
so
that
is
a
different
circumstance
than
the
others
is
a
pardon,
the
appropriate
recourse.
That's
not
for
me
to
decide,
but
I
do
I
am
having
trouble
sorting
out
exactly
what
we're.
What
this
is
about.
I.
A
E
B
E
E
B
B
Pretend
to
I
was
trained
no
higher
than
a
Marine
captain
since
then,
I've
wandered
around
and
crawled
around
with
a
notebook
and
ask
people
how
they
spell
their
names
right,
I,
don't
have
training
or
inclination
to
be
a
strategic
thinker.
I'm
an
expert
in
exactly
nothing
I
do
think
this.
We
need
a
full-throated,
broad-based
national
conversation
about
what
we're
doing
in
these
wars.
Let
the
foreign
policy
establishments
work
through
this
and
here's
what
I'd
propose
the
outcome
should
be
that
we
set
some
objectives:
realistic
objectives.
What
are
we
doing
in
Afghanistan
and
Iraq?
B
What
do
we
hope
to
achieve
realistically
now,
next
step?
How
do
we
marshal
our
resources
to
achieve
what
we
hope
to
achieve?
How
will
we
know
what's
our
measure
when
we
have
achieved
it
and
then
how
do
we
bring
people
home?
What
we
have
instead
of
that
is
just
sheer
drift,
and
people
like
David
Petraeus,
who
ever
seemed
like
every
year,
gave
us
a
new
idea
for
why
we
were
doing
something
basically
was
riding
a
big
machine
with
no
off
button.
B
Show
me
the
off
button
guys.
What
are
we
doing?
How
are
we
doing
it?
How
will
we
know
when
we've
done
it
and
are
we
marshalling
our
resources
to
get
there
I?
Don't
think
anyone
in
this
room,
I,
don't
think
anyone
I've
hardly
ever
met
can
answer
those
questions
thoughtfully
and
convincingly
I
had
an
exercise
I
used
to
do
you
know.
I
was
in
a
funny
position.
I
was
covering
the
rank-and-file
people.
D
B
B
You
know
and
say,
hey
and
write
down
for
me,
two
things
you
got
one
side
of
the
paper
and
you
got
another
side
of
the
paper
on
one
side
write
down
for
me:
how
what
you're
doing
connects
to
people
being
safer
in
your
hometown,
throw
me
that
line
as
I
assume
you
enlisted
out
of
your
hometown.
So
you
had
some
idea
that
you
wanted
to
protect
it.
The
other
is
show
me
how
we
win
this.
B
B
Zero-Zero
so
when
people
say
like
a
colonel
is
a
senior
military
officer,
I
mean
I
would
I
guess
if
I'd
stayed
in
I'd
be
a
general
now
I
mean
I,
never
would
have
gotten
promoted,
as
you
can
tell,
but
but
if
I
stayed
in
and
did
make
it
to
general,
these
were
these.
Were
my
people?
I
knew
I
wouldn't
have
answers
either.
B
I
couldn't
think
my
way
through
the
puzzle,
so
I
say
a
colonel
who
you
know
many
of
you
have
Colonel
walked
in
here
all
bedecked
ribbond
and
the
chicken
on
his
collar
in
a
shiny,
uniform
and
the
Corps
Fram
shoes.
You
many
of
you
would
think
wow.
That's
a
senior
military
officer.
I
would
say
that
dude's,
a
senior
military
officer,
the
way
of
bus
drivers,
a
senior
motorist,
can't
get
off
the
route
can't
get
off
the
route
doesn't
set
the
schedule
stuck
in
it
too.
E
B
I
mean
you,
those
a
lot
of
you.
Were
there
right,
we're
in
Iraq
and
Afghanistan
I
mean
the
forces
got
better
at
the
tactical
and
technical
level.
They
got
really
sharp.
It
was
one
of
the
great
sorrows
you
know.
I
mean
the
thing
after
a
few
years
of
war
and
I
hate
to
use
sports
metaphor,
but
you
create
a
varsity.
People
really
got
good
procedures
got
good
and
then
the
people
who
stuck
around
and
re-enlisted
really
felt
it
was
their
calling.
B
They
were
deeply
committed,
and
so
by
the
time
we
were,
you
know
five
years
into
Iraq
the
company
commanders
and
the
senior
NCOs
had
a
heck
of
a
lot
of
experience
and
the
equipment.
Finally
caught
up.
I
would
say
you
know
it
wasn't
really
until
Afghanistan
that
we
sought
to
I
started
to
see
the
whole
force
very
well-equipped,
so
that
would
be
like
when
I
say
Afghanistan
I
mean
the
Obama
surge.
That
would
be
like
2010.
B
Roughly,
the
sorrow
was
seeing
that
connected
to
something
that
wasn't
working
and
we
knew
it
wasn't
working
by
then
clearly
and
I
started
to
see
among
the
troops.
I
would
say,
certainly
by
2006
a
clear
sense
that
this
wasn't
working
and
a
lot
of
morale
problems
and
people
were
fighting
for
each
other
people
who
didn't
think
it
was
going
to
stick
people
who
hated
Iraq
and
Afghanistan.
You
know
at
the
top
level
they
were
talking
about
how
we're
gonna
save
these
countries.
There
was
a
lot
of
hatred
and
the
force
fair
amount
of
racism.
B
I
mean
people,
I
mean
people
had
soured,
it
was.
It
was
awful
to
see
and
then
the
other
thing
that
happens
and
it
takes
a
while
for
this.
His
candor
occurs
when
you're
in
something
and
you're
committed
to
it.
You
want
to
believe
in
it
and
you
often
do
for
a
while.
Then
you
get
a
little
distance
on
it.
Maybe
you
get
out
of
the
army
or
the
Marine
Corps,
and
you
start
to
process
it.
B
You
start
to
get
a
broader
perspective
on
what
you
did
and
what
happened
to
you
and
your
friends
and
the
veteran
community
began
to
question
the
wars
quite
quickly
in
a
way
that
the
active
duty
forces
can't
you
know,
you're,
not.
You
know
what
it's
like:
I
mean
going
to
you're
going
to
any
of
y'all
jobs.
Go
into
your
office
tomorrow
and
say
you
know,
you
all,
don't
know
what
the
hell
you're
doing.
Boss
doesn't
work
out
anywhere
and
it
didn't.
B
It
doesn't
work
out
in
a
deeply
hierarchical
and
regimen
regimental
and
regimented,
and
busy
organization
like
the
Marine
Corps
of
the
army,
but
yeah
I
saw
I
saw
a
lot
of
a
lot
of
change
from
the
flash
of
patriotism
after
2001
and
the
desire
to
believe
in
the
country
and
its
leadership
in
2003
that
many
of
the
people
in
uniform
showed
up
with
to
also
people
who
just
wanted
to
go
to
war.
It's
not
uncommon
in
the
military
that
people
want
to
do.
What
they've
trained
to
do.
E
E
B
The
number
of
people
who
serve
is
around
three
million,
that's
less
than
one
percent
of
the
population.
But
if
you
just
look
at
the
1%,
you
miss
a
lot
because
every
one
of
those
people
has
a
larger
familial
and
social
network
lovers-
spouses,
close
friends,
children,
parents,
next-door
neighbors,
who
all
were
affected
by
the
ward.
B
So
the
the
the
the
the
density
gets
way
past
1%
I,
don't
know
where
it
stops,
you're,
probably
still
in
the
single
digits,
but
that's
still
not
much
in
a
democracy
right,
let's
say
we're
at
we're
at
five
percent,
so
five
times
that
so
fifteen
million
people
you
know
had
a
direct
stake,
say
you're
at
ten
percent,
so
you
know
30
or
31
million
people
at
a
direct
stake
in
the
war
in
a
country
of
320
or
330
million
doesn't
amount
to
much
politically.
But
personally,
this
has
profound
influence.
B
I
mean
the
families
who
participated
have
been
changed
by
it.
Many
of
them
sense
that
it
didn't
work.
Many
of
them
fiercely
still
want
to
believe
I
get
that
a
lot
of
the
population
is
clustered
geographically
around
the
bases
which
are
clustered
in
the
south
and
the
West.
Many
of
the
retirees
settled
around
the
bases,
so
we
have
kind
of
created
islands
or
pockets
where
there's
a
richer
understanding
of
the
wars
and
a
military
life,
and
then
others
who
were
scattered
like
in
Iowa,
where
I
am
in.
B
B
B
So
yeah
I
took
out
my
phone
and
went
through
my
whatsapp.
You
know
you'd
see
I
had
a
former
Marine
Sergeant
today
texting
me
like
you
know:
how
do
these
people
even
sleep?
Do
they
lose
any
sleep?
We
don't
know
the
answer,
there's
not
a
lot
of
candor
and
the
senior
accounts.
Yet
from
these
wars,
the
people,
the
architects
of
the
wars,
have,
in
the
main
you
know
either
written
defensive
books
or
you
know,
books
that
are,
you
know,
filled
with
you.
B
Aphorisms,
you
know
how
to
how
to
run
an
organization.
Let
me
tell
you
how
but
I
imagine
I
was
a
general.
Once
we
haven't
seen
that
kind
of
candor
I
don't
know.
That's
a
good
question
I'd
like
to
know
I'd
like
to
believe
that
they
do
but
I
also
know.
Even
when
I
was
in
a
cap
and
just
really
low
I
mean
the
bar
to
be
a
Marine
Corps
captain,
if
you're
a
Marine
Corps
lieutenant
is
basically
don't
get
a
DWI
and
be
able
to
fog
a
mirror
and
you're
gonna
be
a
captain.
B
A
B
Was
living
in
a
bubble
of
airbrushed,
airbrushed,
airbrushed,
crap
and
it
gets
it
goes
like
that
higher
and
higher
and
I
often
would
meet
I
wouldn't
say:
I
didn't
often
me,
but
I
would
episodically
meet
senior
people
in
these
wars
and
what
I've
noticed
about
them
is.
They
knew
the
plan.
They
knew
what
they
were
saying.
They
knew
what
they
plan
to
do.
They
were
articulate
on
what
they
were
trying
to
do.
B
They
had
no
idea
what
was
actually
going
on
and
the
perspectives
that
I
heard
from
the
ground
or
saw
firsthand
on
the
ground
was
at
such
odds
with
what
they
actually
seemed
genuinely
to
believe,
and
they
weren't
fools
smart
people
hard-working
people.
They
got
up
early,
they
stayed
up
late,
they
absorbed
the
information
as
a
gave
know,
but
the
information
was
really
skewed
and
airbrushed,
because
the
military's
full
of
yes
people
and
so
I
don't
know
one.
E
B
Whatever
you
think
of
Bush
and
I,
don't
care,
that's
on
you,
I,
don't
care
where
you
come
down
on
that
there's
a
lot
of
variation
of
opinion
on
that
he's
done
one
thing
that
I
find
fascinating
and
and
support
as
a
human
being.
He
meets
with
veterans
regularly
one-on-one
doc.
Kirby
was
almost
unscheduled
appointment,
of
course,
nothing's
unscheduled
in
the
Bush
Presidential
Library,
but
this
is
how
unscheduled
this
almost
was.
B
Doc
was
in
Texas
from
Georgia,
where
he
lives
for
a
NASCAR
event
at
which
he
was
being
honored
as
a
vet,
and
one
of
Bush's
former
aides
was
at
the
event
and
saw
doc
was
being
honored
and
approached
the
family
and
said
you
know.
I
bet,
I
can
get
you
an
appointment
tomorrow
to
see
the
president.
Would
you
like
that
the
family
didn't
have
any
dress
clothes
or
anything?
They
were
a
NASCAR
event
and
the
next
morning
they
ended
up
meeting
Bush
in
his
library
and
they
were
wearing.
You
know
like
t-shirts
and
plaid.
B
You
know
how
we
all
dress
at
NASCAR,
that's
how
they
went
and
the
Bush
opened
the
door
himself.
No
staff
nor
handlers
sat
without
a
barricade
between
the
family
and
him.
You
know
around
the
coffee
table,
served
them
coffee
with
his
own
hands
and
listened
to
them
one
by
one.
There,
five
of
them
to
doc
has
two
siblings
and
two
parents
and
Doc.
B
So
five
people
now
doc
went
in
with
a
ball
cap
which
he
didn't
take
off
for
the
president
baseball
cap
and
the
president
gave
him
some
about
that
and
they
talked
whatever
you
think
of
Bush
I
think
this
is
quite
something
he's
done
this
with
a
lot.
He
doesn't
seek
credit
for
it.
I
tried
to
fact
check
it
with
Bush.
He
declined
to
engage
because
he
wasn't
looking
for
any
credit
for
it.
He
didn't
I,
don't
think
he
really
cared.
B
What
I
thought
I
think
he
was
mostly
interested
in
whatever
is
driving
him
to
do
this
and
doc
found
it
ultimately
very
validating
his
mother.
I
won't
spoil
it,
but
his
mother,
basically
teed
off
on
the
president
he
had
spent.
You
know
she
had
like
one
night
to
get
ready
and
she
prepared
a
monologue
and
and
when
her
turn
came
to
talk,
you
know
doc
was
like.
Who
are
you
and
what
are
you
doing?
Who
you
not
heard?
The
president
was
like
you
know,
went
to
the
siblings.
Who
are
you
and
what
do
you
do?
B
Tell
me
about
you?
What's
up
in
your
life
came
to
her
and
she's
like
hi,
I'm,
the
mom
and
and
she
really
uncorked
something
on
the
president
I
to
I,
and
he
sat
there
across
the
table.
He
shifted
apparently
uncomfortably
in
the
seat
a
few
times
according
to
the
five
other
people
in
the
room,
but
he
was
very
respectful
and
he
listened
to
it
and
doc.
Ultimately,
and
his
mom
ultimately
came
away
feeling
very
validated.
By
that
you
know
the
sum
is
not
thing.
B
E
B
Soldiers
killed
him
murdered
him
murdered
him,
he
was
trained
in
him
and
they
murdered
him.
Imagine
that
and
she
described
for
me
what
it
was
like
after
she
found
out
after
the
notification
came
to
her
to
her
door
and
she
needed
groceries
and
she
went
to
the
store
and
she's
wander
around
a
grocery
store
full
of
Americans
who
are
just
shopping
going
through
their
lives.
B
A
B
Okay,
when
I'm
using
my
hands,
my
goal
is
to
get
out
of
this
gig.
Eventually,
I'll.
Keep
writing
I
just
wrote
this
year's
two
book
proposals
on
my
weekends
that
I'll
be
circulating
and
hopefully
I'll
have
publisher
still.
Hopefully,
this
book
is
done
well
enough
that
I
retain
a
seat
at
the
table,
as
a
writer
I
think
I
do
so.
I'll
just
keep
writing
but
I.
B
You
know
I've
been
saying
these
things
to
a
lot
of
blank
faces
for
a
long
time,
and
maybe
it's
just
time
for
me
to
like,
go
out
and
swing
an
axe
against
trees
and
drop
some
pots
down
to
the
ocean
bottom
and
crank
up
some
product
mind
my
own
business
and
shut
up.
That's
probably
what's
in
store
for
me.
E
B
Mean
I
probably
have
trouble
articulating,
but
I've
tried
to
cover
across
time,
articulate
and
show
the
human
experiences
and
consequences
of
war.
I
recently
spent
a
chunk
of
time
almost
in
person
and
then
on
the
phone
and
and
text
with
a
war
awareness
Potter.
Former
marine
of
my
generation
Gulf
War
vet,
like
me,
makes
these
cups
and
the
cup
serve
graphic
and
brutal,
like
some
of
the
stuff
I
read,
but
they
have
their
own
language.
He
puts
all
these
stampings
and
marks
on
him.
B
He
gives
them
away,
you
can't
buy
him
been
making
them
for
almost
20
years.
He's
made
giving
away
almost
I,
think
22,000
of
them,
and
he
I
asked
him
the
same
question.
You
just
asked
me
and
I'll
maybe
hide
behind
his
statement.
He
said
I'll
get
it
wrong,
you
can
look
it
up
and
you'll
find
I
got
I'll.