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From YouTube: Policing Reform Collaborative – Camden, N.J. Police Reform Case Study with AG Anne Milgram
Description
As part of an ongoing series of forums informing the City of Ithaca & Tompkins County Policing Reform Collaborative, a public session will be held with former New Jersey Attorney General Anne Milgram. Attorney General Milgram will share an overview of Camden New Jersey’s police reform process and lessons learned. The public is encouraged to participate in the forum by registering as a webinar attendee to ask questions live, following Milgram’s remarks. You can register to participate here: https://tompkinscountyny-gov.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_MjwzM8_9TkCh6Kj9TyTHkQ
The forum will also be streamed live to YouTube and archived at this same link (https://youtu.be/PzcC6ZeR_pg) for future viewing.
Listen to Milgram speak with Camden Police Chief Scott Thomson here: https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/the-camden-policing-model-with-anne-milgram-scott-thomson/
Read a published case study from Camden here: https://lnwprogram.org/sites/default/files/Guardians-Not-Warriors.pdf
B
B
You
know:
we've
embarked
on
this
collaborative
effort
to
reimagine
public
safety
in
both
the
city
of
ithaca
and
tompkins
county,
and
we
committed
to
look
both
internally
for
insights
and
externally
for
models
from
visionaries
and
communities
that
have
made
sustainable
progress
towards
more
equitable
policing
and
public
safety
strategies.
So
ann
is
one
of
those
visionaries
from
abroad
abroad
being
anything
outside
of
hopkins
county.
Of
course,.
B
In
new
jersey,
that's
what
I
mean
we,
we
don't
need
a
passport
yet
to
travel,
to
new
jersey,
though,
who
knows
after
november.
So
andes
is
a
former
attorney
general
of
new
jersey
assistant,
district
attorney
in
manhattan's
district
attorney's
office
and
federal
prosecutor
she's,
currently
a
practicing
attorney
and
professor
at
the
nyu
school
of
law
and
when
she
was
a.g
of
of
new
jersey.
That's
obviously
the
state's
chief
law
enforcement
officer.
She
oversaw
the
nationally
recognized
reformation
of
the
camden
police
department.
B
Now,
at
the
time,
camden
was
a
city
had
been
ranked
as
one
of
the
most
dangerous
in
america
and
ann's
approach
to
use
data
and
analytics
to
reduce
violent
crime
while
implementing
effective
law
enforcement
reforms
that
change
the
culture
and
the
practices
of
both
policing
and
courts
to
make
camden
a
safer
community.
So
ann
is
here
to
share
a
perspective
and
experience
from
camden
and
then
we'll
make
some
time
to
answer
questions
from
from
from
us.
B
Those
of
us
who
are
local
so
a
special
thanks
to
the
center
for
policing
equity,
who
we've
been
partnering
on
throughout
our
collaborative
process
and
who
helped
facilitate
this
conversation
and
and
bring
in
such
a
luminary.
So
thank
you
thank
you
and
for
being
here
please
everybody
welcome
and
miller.
C
Thank
you
so
much,
and
I'm
I'm
really
excited
to
be
here
with
you
today.
I
love
the
approach
that
you're
taking
to
thinking
about
public
safety
and
one
of
the
things
we
did.
A
lot
of
in
camden
was
collaborative
conversations
with
the
community
and
so
you're
already,
I
think,
far
ahead
of
where,
where
we
were,
when
I
started
just
to
give
everyone
a
little
bit
of
background,
because
I
think
it
can
be
helpful.
C
So
I
was
sworn
in
as
a.g
on
june
29th
of
2007.,
I
never
overseen
a
police
department.
I,
as
the
mayor
just
said,
I
was
a
criminal
prosecutor
for
many
years
and
on
day
one
a
prior
ag
had
taken
over
the
camden
new
jersey,
police
department
and
so
on
day
one
I
was
in
charge
of
essentially
the
police
department
of
the
most
dangerous
city.
In
america
we
had
a
murder
rate
on
par
with
honduras.
We
were
losing
people
left,
like
literally
like
almost
every
day.
C
There
was
a
call
about
shooting
a
homicide
or
or
just
a
devastating
problem
in
the
community.
So
I
was
sworn
in
on
june
29th,
which
I
remember
2007
and
july.
4Th
was
five
days
later
and
I
basically
got
a
call
late
that
night
and
there
was
there
been
a
shooting
of
peewee
coleman,
who
was
basically
assassinated,
gangland
style
outside
a
housing
project
in
camden,
the
branch,
village,
housing
projects,
and
I
asked
for
more
information.
I
was
asking
questions.
C
There
were
more
than
20
shell
casings
found
at
the
scene,
and
I
sort
of
had
my
prosecutor
hat
on
to
start
to
understand.
You
know
who
did
it?
Why
did
they
do
it?
Do
you
have
a
suspect
and
then,
after
a
short
period
of
time,
the
individual
on
the
other
end
of
the
line
said
p,
we
just
turned
12.,
and
so
that
was
for
me
the
moment
in
the
sand.
C
Looking
back
was
the
fact
that
I
didn't
come
in
with
preconceived
ideas
or
notions
about
what
policing
is
and
what
it
has
always
been.
I
come
from
a
long
line
of
police
officers.
My
grandfather
was
the
police
officer
and
the
chief
police.
My
great-grandfather
was
also
a
police
officer
and
the
chief
of
police,
both
in
a
small
town,
called
southamboy
new
jersey,
but
I'd
never
done
policing.
I'd
done
criminal
prosecution,
I've
done
civil
rights
prosecution.
C
I
was
leading
the
human
trafficking
prosecutions
nationwide
when
I
left
the
department
of
justice,
and
so
this
was
really
new
to
me,
and
so
I
went
down
to
camden
and
I
wanted
just
to
understand
the
basics
of
what
was
happening.
I
wanted
to
understand
what
we
were
doing
if
it
was
working
and
whether
or
not
we
could
do
better,
and
I
wanted
to
understand
the
sort
of
community
feeling
about
how
we
were
doing
business.
C
I
took
a
ride
along
I've,
told
this
story
before
for
any
of
the
folks
who've
seen
a
ted
talk,
I
gave
a
while
back.
I
took
a
ride
along,
I
didn't
see
a
single
police
officer,
I
heard
sirens
and
lights
and
I
saw
like
a
car
flash
by,
but
I
didn't
see
a
single
officer
walking
the
street
and
there
was
just
this
sense
of
a
lack
of
safety
in
the
community.
I
didn't
see
kids
in
parks,
I
didn't
see
kids
walking
to
and
from
school,
and
so
you
know
there.
C
I
had
a
sense
that
something
was
wrong
and
I
couldn't
really
understand
it.
And
then
I
went
to
what
what's
known
as
comstatin
policing
and
you
probably
have
a
version
of
it
in
ithaca.
I
had
seen
the
one
at
the
nypd,
which
is
really
something
to
behold
where
senior
police
leaders
are
asking
they're
pulling
data
about
where
crimes
are
being
committed.
What
trends
are
happening?
Are
crimes
going
up
or
down?
Are
there
certain
things
happening
in
specific
neighborhoods?
What
complaints
are
coming
in
from
the
community?
C
So
I
went
to
this
in
camden
and
it
was
nothing
like
what
I'd
seen
in
in
the
nypd.
It
was
basically
officers
writing
on
yellow
stickies
about
crimes
that
had
occurred
and
putting
them
on
a
map,
and
so
it
was
really
clear
that
people
were
working
hard.
It
was
also
really
clear
that
we
actually
couldn't
answer
those
fundamental
questions
that
I
was
asking
about.
What
were
we
doing?
C
Was
it
working
and
could
we
do
better,
and
we
also
couldn't
answer
the
question
of
what
were
the
communities
concerns
and
I'll
take
a
step
back
in
a
couple
minutes
of
work.
I've
done
since
camden,
but
I
think
it's
really
important
to
note
that
we
then
started
and
we
just
went
in
I.
I
hired
this
amazing
guy
joe
cordero,
who
I've
recently
partnered
with
again
to
work
in
the
city
of
indianapolis,
which
I'm
sure
I'll
talk
a
little
bit
about
later.
Today,
but
joe
came,
he
was
the
police
chief
in
massachusetts.
C
C
It
does
not
work
to
wait
for
the
next
9-1-1
call
to
come
to
send
an
officer
or
a
unit,
even
if
you
could
go
quickly
which
in
many
cities
we
don't
go
quickly
enough,
but
even
if
you
could
go
quickly,
you're
still
waiting
for
something
to
happen
and
in
communities
when
you
want
safety.
Safety
is
more
than
just
the
absence
of
crime,
and
so
if
a
child
can't
walk
to
school
because
a
gang
is
is
basically
interfering
with
that
kid.
C
C
If
somebody
commits
violence
against
the
kid
on
their
way
to
school,
but
it's
still
any
way
you
look
at
it.
It's
a
public
safety
problem
and
it's
a
long-term
issue
in
a
community
that
needs
to
be
solved,
and
so
the
problem
with
waiting
to
react
till
you
get
the
9-1-1
call
that
a
crime
is
in
progress.
Is
that
you're
really
basically
giving
up
on
safety
in
a
community
you're
waiting
until
something
happens
and
to
me
the
question
is
really:
how
do
you
be
proactive
about
safety?
C
How
do
you
define
what
safety
means
in
your
community
and
then
how
do
you
build
your
data
systems,
your
processes,
the
deployment
of
officers,
the
deployment
of
community
workers
or
outreach
workers,
community
meetings,
technology
to
pull
insights
and
concerns
from
community
members
about
what's
happening
on
their
block?
Is
there
a
problem
with
kids
walking
to
school?
Are
people
not
feeling
safe
being
in
a
park?
All
of
that
matters
enormously,
and
it
was
literally
not.
It
was
the
opposite
of
what
we
were
doing.
C
We
were
just
reacting,
and
so
I
brought
joe
on
board
to
help
us
figure
out
how
we
could
become
proactive
and
not
wait
for
things
to
happen.
The
two
other
key
things
I
think
we
did
in
camden
and
I
can
go
through
this
in
more
detail
as
we
go
on,
but
one
was
we
thought
a
lot
about
accountability
now
in
a
lot
of
police
departments,
and
I
work
in
a
lot
of
police
departments.
C
The
other
piece
was
really
the
community
piece,
and
I
can't
begin
to
stress
enough
how
important
it
is
to
have
the
voice
in
the
community
in
the
conversation
about
public
safety
and
not
just
until
you
make
changes
or
you
change
policies
but
long
term,
and
that's
because
it's
critically
important
to
have
the
trust
of
the
community
when
it
comes
to
solving
crimes.
And
so
it's
also
really
important
to
know.
C
You
know
the
community
is
your
eyes
and
ears
of
where
there
are
problems
that
are
that
are
percolating,
and
so
this
is
something
we
built
technology
around
it
to
have
it
be
easy
for
residents
to
be
able
to
say
on
this
street
corner.
They
could
literally
make
a
mark
on
a
picture
on
a
phone
screen
or
on
a
computer
screen,
saying
like
there's
a
problem
here
or
just
to
basically
communicate
in
a
lot
of
different
ways
and
to
give
citizens
also
surveys
just
to
basically
regularly
be
asking
like
how
are
we
doing.
C
I
think
all
of
us
now
know
that
you
walk
out
of
a
bathroom
in
an
airport
or
a
train
station
and
there's
like
the
little
faces
green
you're.
Happy
yellow
you're,
not
so
happy
red,
you're
really
unhappy,
and
we
haven't
really
done
that
enough
with
law
enforcement,
even
though
we
are,
you
know,
public
safety
and
a
community
a
community
service,
a
couple
other
pieces
about
camden
that
I
think
are
are
worth
just
sort
of
noting
I
set
it
up
front,
but
I'll
say
it
again.
C
I
will
also
say
that
I
believe
that
our
system
suffers
from
systemic
bias
and
flaws
that
go
far
deeper
than
any
individual
police
officer
right,
and
so
I
think
when
we
think
about
structural
reforms
and
cultural
reforms,
we
have
to
think
about
how
we
do
it
in
a
way
that
basically
makes
our
communities
safer
right
to
me,
the
north
star
is
always
public
safety.
How
do
we
keep
communities
safe
and
engaged,
and
have
that
dialogue
back
and
forth
between
the
community
and
the
law
enforcement
folks
versus
us
versus
them
and
again,
there's
there's?
C
When
I
talk
about
it
being
hard,
I
will
talk
also
nationally
about
something
I
see,
which
is
that,
as
a
rule,
we
put
police
chiefs
in
when
they're
about
to
retire.
Right.
Policing
is
civil
service
driven
in
many
states
and
cities.
There
are
civil
service
tests
that
people
have
to
take
and,
in
my
personal
view,
it's
there's
two
challenges
that
come
with.
C
That
one
is
that,
if
you
put
a
chief
in
and
they're
gonna
leave
in
a
year
or
two,
it's
really
hard
for
the
community,
it's
hard
for
the
officers
there's
a
lot
of
jockeying
among
senior
leadership
to
be
the
next
chief
and
also
frankly,
people
know
that
they
could
outlast
or
outweigh
some
of
the
changes
that
are
coming
through.
Maybe,
most
importantly,
I
don't
think
it
rewards
innovation,
and
so
you
know
the
chief
and
I
had
a
lot
of
failures.
C
I
should
say
that,
and
I
had
a
lot
of
support,
so
I
was
given
a
lot
of
leeway
to
fail.
I
was
the
chief
law
enforcement
officer.
I
had
a
governor
who
had
a
lot
of
confidence
and
believed
very
much
that
we
were
trying
to
do
the
right
thing
and
had
frankly,
a
lot
of
patience
as
we
as
we
made
a
lot
of
changes,
and
things
did
not
always
work,
but
the
the
chief
who,
I
think
now
is,
is
really
well
known
and
did
a
phenomenal
job
for
over
a
decade
is
scott
thompson.
C
Personally,
I
think,
is
really
important
and
I
think
we
don't
talk
enough
about
how
we
appoint
chiefs,
how
we
make
internal
decisions
about
promotions
about
how
we
sort
of
groom
leadership,
for
you
know
the
next
decade
and
I
think
it
really
matters.
I
also
think
one
of
the
things
that
we
learned
in
camden.
We
did
a
community
collaboration
that
was
much
like,
I
think,
what
you're
doing,
although
it
was
in
person-
and
we
talked
a
lot
with
the
community
about
what
they
wanted
to
see
in
officers.
C
And
the
answer
was
empathy,
fairness,
kindness,
people
who
were
willing
to
sort
of
be
a
part
of
the
community,
were
community
oriented
and
that
also
went
a
long
way
as
we
started
to
try
to
hire
folks
that
scott
refers
to
them
as
guardians
not
warriors,
and
so
we
did
a
lot
of
crime
fighting
work.
It's
a
critical
part
of
the
work
that
we
did
in
camden
and
that
I've
now
done
in
other
cities,
because
in
my
view
you
have
to
stop
violence,
and
you
have
to.
C
We
do
know
how
to
control
violence,
and
it's
just
critically
important
that
we
do
that.
But
it's
not
enough
right
and
your
average
police
officer
needs
to
be
in
the
community.
They
need
to
be
engaging
on
issues
that
matter
to
the
community,
and
you
know
this.
It
matters
a
lot
how
people
are
treated
and,
in
my
view,
is
one
of
the
critical
parts
of
policing
a
couple
of
other
points
to
make
before
I.
I
think
we
could
sort
of
open
for
questions
or
conversations
part
of
the
national
conversation
right
now.
C
Well,
there's
two
things
I'll
come
to
the
national
conversation.
A
second!
Let
me
do.
Let
me
do
let
me
do
sort
of
a
bigger,
a
bigger
picture,
public
safety
conversation,
which
is
that
for
the
past
couple
years
at
the
nyu
lab
that
I
direct
we've
built
a
screening
tool
for
the
police
to
identify
individuals
who
suffer
from
mental
health
and
substance
abuse.
C
It
is
often
the
end
result
of
many
other
things
and
we
have
not
done
an
effective
job
as
a
rule
dealing
with
some
of
those
other
challenges
like
people
who
suffer
from
a
mental
health
disorder,
a
substance,
abuse,
disorder,
homelessness,
suicidality
and
those
types
of
things.
So
over
the
past
sort
of
three
or
four
years,
we've
worked
a
lot
on.
How
could
we
give
something
to
law
enforcement?
C
I
also
think
it's
really
important
that
as
the
mayor
and
others
consider
public
safety,
that
we
understand
that
you
know
there
is
something
called
social
determinants
of
health
and
those
are
the
conditions
in
which
we
live.
The
conditions
in
which
we
work.
We
play
we
go
to
school
and
they
tend
to
involve
things
like
housing,
education,
poverty,
racism,
violence,
trauma,
housing,
instability
and
those
things
have
a
huge
impact
on
all
of
our
health,
and
we
are
now
doing
research
with
the
medical
school
at
nyu.
C
We're
about
to
embark
on
a
project
with
them
to
look
at
the
social
determinants
of
public
safety,
because,
for
example,
we
know
that
kids
who
graduate
high
school
are
far
less
likely
to
engage
in
crime.
We
know
that
kids,
who
have
better
reading
scores
in
third
grade
are
far
less
likely
to
engage
in
crime,
and
so
we
need
to
have
this
conversation
about
what
makes
communities
safe.
It's
not
just
waiting
until
something
has
happened
to
react.
It's
thinking
about
all
the
ways
in
which
we
improve
public
safety,
so
that
that
call
never
comes
right.
C
C
That
is
also
a
critical
part
of
the
conversation
and
the
way
that
we're
seeing
this
evolve,
I
think,
is
really
important.
So
almost
any
police
department,
if
you
pulled
all
the
9-1-1
records,
you
would
find
60.
Maybe
you
know
say
say:
50
or
60
of
all
calls
for
service,
meaning
calls
for
help
come
in
in
a
criminal
at
the
beginning,
meaning
shots
fired.
C
Someone
stole
my
car,
a
man
just
broke
into
my
house,
what,
whatever
it
could
be
a
woman
to
whatever
it
is,
but
but
some
indication
on
a
phone
call
that
a
crime
is
either
in
progress
or
was
just
committed
versus
about
40
of
the
other
things
that
police
officers
deal
with
and
a
lot
of
those
are
things
like
welfare
checks.
I'm
worried
about
my
brother.
He
has
mental
illness.
I
haven't
seen
him
there's
a
homeless
person
on
on
the
street.
C
If
it's
a
welfare
check,
it
probably
could
be
an
alternate
response,
a
community
health
worker,
if
it's
a
call
of
of
an
individual,
that's
having
emotional
emotional
disturbance
problem
with
a
knife
that
is
going
to
be
a
police
response.
But
the
question
is:
is
it
just
the
police
or
is
it
the
police
and
others,
but
I
think
to
the
extent
we
can
pursue
this
conversation
and
pull
data
to
really
understand
what
calls
are
coming
in?
C
C
I
want
to
talk
about
one
last
thing,
which
is
that,
in
addition
to
all
these
things
that
I'm
I'm
sort
of
talking
about,
I
think
we
also
have
to
talk
a
lot
about
being
transparent
and
sharing
information
and
sharing
information
about.
You
know
where
crimes
are
and
again
not
with
specifics
but
sort
of
whether
it's
it's
the
racial
and
gender
breakdown
of
the
police
department,
whether
it's
information
on
discipline.
C
C
A
Yeah,
that's
great,
thank
you
and
I
going
to
invite
the
folks
who've
signed
on
to
the
zoom
webinar.
If
they
use
the
raise
your
hand
function,
I
will
give
I'll
click
the
allow
to
talk
button
and
let
folks
make
a
comment
share
a
question.
Otherwise
we
do
have
some
questions
coming
in
through
our
youtube
as
well,
that
will
paste
in.
But
if
anyone
on
the
webinar
would
like
to
ask
a
question
to
ann,
please
feel
free
to
raise
your
hand
and
I'll
elevate
you
to
speak.
D
Hi,
thank
you
so
much
for
for
sharing.
I
really
appreciate
it.
I'm
the
executive
director
at
a
boces,
where
we
have
a
criminal
justice
program
in
the
ithaca
area
in
tompkins,
county
and
so
we're
preparing.
We
have
a
two-year
program
for
high
school
students
and
we're
preparing
them
to
come
into
law
enforcement.
Many
of
them,
and
so
we're
also
looking
to
just
make
sure
that
we're
in
line
with
all
of
the
criminal
justice
reform
and
preparing
them
and
want
to
make
sure
that
we
do
some
work
on
addressing
biases
things
like
that.
C
Yeah,
it's
a
great
question.
I
believe
training
is
so
important
and
that
traditionally
we've
trained
on
crime
and
crime
sort
of
interdiction-
and
you
know
what
do
you
do
when
you
encounter
someone
who's
violent,
all
of
which
is
critically
important,
but
it's
it's
only
a
part
of
the
job,
and
so
I
think
a
lot
of
the
training
has
to
be
focused
on.
How
do
you
serve
your
community?
C
What
does
that
look
like
and
also
understanding
data-
and
I
know
that
this
may
sound
strange
but
like
really
policing,
is
traditionally
been
anecdotal,
meaning
an
officer
goes
on
the
street
and
actually,
let
me
let
me
step
back
and
say
it
a
little
differently,
which
is
that
my
grandfather,
when
he
was
the
police
chief
in
south
amboy
new
jersey,
he
used
to
tell
the
story
of
they
didn't
have
9-1-1
at
the
time
right.
The
9-1-1
is
from
it's
it's
recent.
C
I
mean
there
might
be
some
young
people
on
the
phone
who
on
this
call,
who
were
not
born
at
the
time.
But
really
it's
pretty.
Recent
police
officers
used
to
walk
around
communities.
There
was
an
air
siren
that
would
go
off.
My
grandfather
would
knock
on
someone's
door
or
go
into
their
house,
use
the
phone
to
call
the
precinct
and
he
was
part
of
the
community
and
we
have
not
we've
essentially,
by
becoming
more
reactive
and
by
being
more
911,
focused
we've.
Actually,
let
officers
sort
of
remove
from
the
community
in
a
way.
C
That's
really,
in
my
view,
not
positive
and
so
part
of
basically
the
work
that
we
do.
Is
we
basically
say:
look
your
anecdote
matters.
It
matters
what
you
saw
on
that
street
corner.
It
matters
what
you
saw
last
week,
the
person
you
arrested,
but
it's
simply
not
enough
to
really
understand
where
crime
is
a
problem.
What
the
problems
are,
how
to
think
about
public
safety
in
your
community,
and
you
know
again.
This
is
why,
like
with
a
lot
of
the
work,
I
do
we
automate
some
of
the
data.
C
So
we
automate
community
concerns
we
automate
crime,
we
automate
so
that
we
can
be
able
to
tell
an
officer
look
on
that
street
block
today.
We
want
you
to
go.
Do
a
directed
patrol
because
there's
a
real
concern
about
homelessness.
We
don't
want
you
to
arrest
anyone.
We
want.
You
to
call
the
social
service
agency
and
if
you
can
partner
with
them
and
and
see
if
you
can
help
somebody,
that's
a
different
mindset
than
reacting
to
something.
C
That's
happened
where
you're
going
in
to
make
an
arrest,
and
I
think
that
training
needs
to
be
reflective
of
what
modern
policing
should
be.
And
so
look.
I
think
it's
a
great
question.
I
would
also
suggest
this
because
I
think
the
bias
conversation
and
look
ithaca
has
cpe
you're
very
lucky
to
have
the
center
on
police
equity
they're
pulling
data
on
bias.
C
We
pull
data
and
we
see
we
see
that
they're
just
disparities
in
length
of
detention
in
prosecutions
in
bail
being
set,
and
I
don't
I
don't
want
anyone
to
think
that
means
that
there
is
an
officer
or
a
prosecutor
or
judge
who
is
intentionally
biased
against
someone.
It
means
that
whatever's
happening
in
our
system
is
leading
to
inequities
and
there
may
be
people
who
are
biased.
E
C
Yeah,
it's
a
great
question,
so
you
know
we
went
from
where
I
started,
which
is
we
didn't
even
have
officers
in
cars
in
neighborhoods
right,
and
so
we
spent
a
lot
of
time.
Redeploying
the
entire
force-
and
the
first
thing
to
just
be
nitty-gritty
for
a
minute,
is
that
we
did
a
deep
data
dive
again.
I
didn't
go
into
too
much
detail
but,
like
I
wanted
to
know
on
a
12-hour
shift,
what
were
officers
doing,
how
many
radio
calls
were
they
doing?
Why
were
they
basically
like?
C
I
wanted
to
understand
why
I
wasn't
seeing
folks
on
the
street
and
we
learned
a
few
things.
We
learned
that
that
officers
were
just
responding
to
9-1-1
calls
constantly
that
it
was
taking
them
so
long
to
get
to
calls
that
people
were
calling
again.
We
learned
that
people
it
was
taking
officers
so
long
to
get
to
calls
that
people
were
actually
saying
shots
fired,
because
if
they
just
said
that
their
car
was
stolen,
no
officers
would
respond.
C
And
then
we
also
learned
that
we
also
learned
this
fascinating
thing,
which
is
that
you
we
had
officers
single
officers,
single
officer,
cars
right,
and
the
idea
was
that,
if
you
put
one
officer
in
a
car,
it'll
you'll
be
able
to
have
officers
and
more
you'll,
be
able
to
respond
to
more
radio
runs
you'll,
be
able
to
911
calls
you'll
be
able
to
do
a
better
job
and
it
turned
out.
It
was
the
exact
opposite
in
some
ways,
because
the
officers
were
did
not
feel
comfortable
or
safe
by
themselves.
C
C
We
have
encouraged
them
in
other
cities,
where
you
basically
say
to
the
officers
and
again
you're
using
crime
information
you're
using
911
call
information,
you're
using
community
concerns
and
sentiment
to
say
to
an
officer.
Look.
We
want
you
to
go,
spend
15
minutes
on
this
block,
there's
been
a
burglary
problem.
We
want
you
to
talk
to
people
in
the
community.
C
It
also
starts
to
prevent
crime
right,
which
is
the
goal
which
is
to
be
really
proactive
at
driving
down
crime
instead
of
waiting
for
it
to
happen.
We
also
did
a
lot
more.
I
think
specific
work
around
identifying
the
small
but
critical
number
of
people
in
a
community
who
commit
violence
in
any
community
community.
I've
worked
in
you
know.
Camden
is
a
city
of
80
000
people.
C
There
were
maybe
50
people
who
we
thought
would
be
the
next
shooter,
maybe
80.,
and
so
we
constantly
were
trying
to
understand
like
where
the
threats
were
coming
from,
and
you
know
how
to
basically
stop
those
happening
as
well,
but
really
to
spend
the
bulk
of
our
time
in
the
community
to
the
point
where.
Actually,
I
should
tell
you
this,
and
I
don't
think
you
should
do
this
tomorrow,
but
camden
no
longer
has
a
patrol
division.
C
They
don't
have
a
unit
that
responds
to
just
9-1-1
calls
they
have
officers
in
the
community
and
they've
gone
from.
When
I
was
there,
I
don't
know
13
or
14
911
calls
per
shift
per
officer
to
like
2.5.
Now
you
know
if
you
think
about
you've,
got
10
or
12
hours
and
you've
got
two
two
and
a
half
two
or
three
radio
runs
where
you're
doing
something
the
rest
of
that
time
is
spent
in
the
community
versus
when
it
was
14
and
then
you're
literally
running
from
call
to
call.
A
F
Yep
there
I
am
hi
anne,
it's
wonderful
to
see
you
and
thank
you
so
much
for
coming.
I
am
a
big
long
time
fan
of
your
podcast
with
preet,
and
I've
listened
to
the
your
one
that
you
did
last
summer
about
camden
a
couple
of
times,
so
I
work
at
the
county
health
department
and
one
of
the
things
and
one
of
the
things
I
do
is
related
to
the
community
health
improvement
plan,
which
is
based
on
the
state
prevention
agenda
in
new
york
state.
F
I'm
not
sure
if
you're
familiar
with
that,
but
it's
it
has
in
the
last
release
cycle,
gone
all
in
with
social
determinants
of
health,
which
is
something
that's
been
around
for
a
long
time,
but
seems
to
have
hit
the
mainstream
just
in
the
last
almost
last
couple
of
years.
So
that's
really
interesting
to
me.
You
know
it
was
like
perked
up
my
ears
when
you,
when
you
used
that
term-
and
I
was
certainly
interested
that
that
it
has.
F
F
We
related
to
the
community
health
improvement
plan
is
more
granular
data
about
related
to
equity,
and
you
know
really
down
at
the
base
of
equity
and
trying
to
think
about
what
we
are
thinking
about
and
trying
to
figure
out
how
to
work
in
so
that
everybody
is
collecting
the
same
data
all
the
time
and
it's
just
it's
simple
data.
It's
simple
data
like
race
and
ethnicity
and
a
few
other
basics,
so
that
we
will
be
able
to
know
where
we
stand
with
that
information.
F
C
Yeah,
I
think
I
think
it's
a
great
question.
I
also
think
that
simple
data
is
good.
You
know
in
some
ways
what
we
find,
sometimes
when
we
will
work
in
a
police
department
or
in
a
community.
Is
that
there's
just
a
lot
of
data
and
people
are
not
sure
what
data
matters
and
how
to
use
it,
and
so
I'm
a
big
believer
in
simple
I'd.
C
Make
sort
of
two
comments,
which
is
the
work
around
social
determinants
of
public
safety,
is
pretty
ground
floor,
and
so
this
came
to
me,
I
was
giving
a
talk
for
a
healthcare
group
last
year
and
I
wanted
to
sort
of
draw.
I
was
looking
at
the
social
determinants
of
health
and
I
wanted,
and
I
you
know
I
had
this
reaction,
which
of
course,
I
think
everyone
has
just
viscerally,
which
is
all
these
things
are
the
same
things
that
impact
crime
right,
unstable,
housing,
mental
health.
C
I
was
finding
one-off
sort
of
connections
and
what
I
realized
eventually
is
that
we've
really
siloed
the
way
we
look
at
the
world,
and
so
it's
not
between
housing
and
crime,
or
you
know
racism
or
trauma,
that's
driving,
just
poor
health
outcomes,
it's
also
driving
poor
public
safety
outcomes,
and
so
we
think
that
the
overlap
between
the
social
determinants
of
health
and
social
determinants
of
crime
will
be
about
70,
80
percent,
maybe
a
little
higher.
We
don't
know
so
we're
going
to
do
a
study.
C
Indianapolis
is
one
of
our
pilot
sites,
we're
looking
for
other
pilot
sites.
We
have
not
picked
them
yet,
but
the
idea
being
to
like
really
do
the
data
work,
to
try
to
understand
where
things
are
connected
and
and
just
to
that
point
you
know
when,
when
you
think
about
the
way
we
collect
data
or
the
way
we
we
sort
of
deal
with
safety
and
I'm
gonna
sort
of
take
it
to
the
next
level,
and
I
won't
stay
there
that
long,
but,
as
a
rule,
each
of
us
interacts
with
separate
government
institutions
right.
C
So
I'm
one
person
and
I
could
interact
with
the
health
department,
the
educational
department,
the
social
service
department,
the
housing
department.
You
know
child
welfare
as
one
person,
each
individual
department
sees
us
as
separate
right,
there's,
no
there's
no
sense
of
centering
the
person
in
the
sort
of
way
we
think
about
public
safety
or
or
frankly,
a
lot
of
other
things,
and
the
problem
with
that
is
that
it's
really
hard
to
sort
of
put
people
and
put
families
in
a
situation
where
they
can
succeed
and
flourish.
C
So
it
was
this
moment
for
me
of
thinking.
We
see.
Each
of
us
sees
our
sort
of
silo
as
separate
and
yet
they're
all
interconnected
and
understanding
that
interconnection
means
you
can
have
someone
at
the
hospital
figure
out
how
the
kid
gets
to
school
the
next
day,
instead
of
just
a
nurse
giving
you
know
milk
and
cookies
to
the
kid
who's
you
know
sitting
in
the
er,
because
his
mom's
there,
and
so
anyway.
I
think
that
this
is
where
the
world
has
to
go.
C
A
G
Hello,
am
I
on
here:
okay,
thanks
very
much
for
being
here
really
very
interesting.
I
I
had
one
question
lined
up
and
then
you
said
something
else
that
made
me
think
of
a
second
one,
I'm
going
to
squeak
them,
both
in
I
heard
on
the
news,
a
story
about
canada
in
the
summer,
and
I,
if
I
get
this
right,
what
I
heard
was
that
when
the
new
police
chief
came
in,
all
of
the
officers
were
asked
to
resign
and
reapply
for
their
positions.
G
C
Yeah
so
let's,
let's
start
with
the
police
chief
and
then
we'll
go
to
the
sort
of
the
people
who
commit
violence
or
who,
who
we
sort
of
think
about
in
those
terms,
so
the
police
chief
that
I
was
talking
about
scott
thompson,
I
put
him
in
officially
as
the
acting
police
chief
in
2008
when
I
still
controlled
the
department.
When
I
left
being
a.g
in
2010,
I
made
scott
the
full-time
police
chief,
the
governor
also
switched
over
and
camden
and
newark
both
had
been
the
recipients
of
something
called
distressed
city
aid.
C
I
don't
know
if
we
have
it
in
new
york
state.
It
was
basically
that
at
the
time
both
of
those
cities
didn't
have
raidables,
they
didn't
have
the
tax
base
to
basically
pay
for
the
public
safety
services
they
needed,
and
so
I
don't
remember
if
it
was
50
million
or
100
million.
It
was
a
lot
of
money
that
got
cut
with
the
next
governor
and
so
that
basically
meant
that
camden
had
to
lay
off
almost
half
of
their
police
officers.
C
The
next
day
that
was
2011.,
they
went
into
a
spiral,
and
when
I
talk
about
the
power
of
the
community,
we
had
dropped
violent
crime
by
more
than
40
percent.
The
community
had
seen
it
and
all
of
a
sudden
the
numbers
were
shooting
up
like
there
were.
Just
there
were
homicides,
there
were
stabbings,
there
were
shootings
and
there
was
a
real
sense
that
it
was
not.
It
was
not
possible
to
sort
of
keep
the
community
safe
with
having
almost
50
percent
fewer
officers,
and
so
they
went
round
and
round.
C
They
looked
for
other
solutions,
eventually
the
contracts
that
the
officers
were
under
were
very
high
paying
and
they
dissolved.
The
camden
city
police
department
started
the
county
police
department
in
an
effort,
basically
to
be
able
to
get
out
from
those
contracts
and
to
be
able
to
hire
more
officers.
So
they
went
from
having
about
250
officers
to
having
about
400
officers
for
the
same
amount
of
money.
C
And
again
it
was
the
view
of
like
how
do
you
make
the
community
safe?
They
felt
that
it
was
important
to
have
officers
in
the
street,
and
so
that
was,
and
the
union
that
existed,
the
fop
was
in
the
camden
city
police
department.
The
fop
is
in
the
camden
county
police
department.
So
I
think
you
know
it's
it's.
C
The
other
thing
I
should
tell
you
is
that
when
the
officers
were,
let
go
from
that
first
apartment,
almost
like
basically,
the
the
only
officers
left
had
been
there
for
15
years
or
more,
and
so
all
the
newer
officers
who'd
been
hired.
As
I
was
talking
about,
you
know,
with
an
eye
to
being
guardians
not
warriors,
all
of
them
had
been,
let
go,
and
so
there
was
a
real
sense
of
a
culture
challenge.
C
If
they
didn't
figure
out
how
to
hire
back
some
of
those
officers
and
and
frankly
it's
a
it
was
a.
It
was,
in
my
view,
the
right
thing
to
do
under
dire
circumstances
that
had
they
not
taken
that
budget
cut,
they
would
not
have
done
on
the
on
the
the
question
of
the
next
shooter.
You
know
people
think
that
violence
is
random.
It's
not
I'll
give
you.
C
The
best
example
is
that
if,
if
you're,
following
sort
of
a
hospital-
and
someone
comes
in
with
a
gunshot
wound
the
likelihood
that
that
person
could
be
either
themselves
or
someone
affiliated
with
them
could
be
a
shooter
in
the
next
week
is
high
right,
and
so
that
doesn't
mean
you
should
profile
them.
It
does
mean
you
can
talk
to
them.
When
they're
in
the
hospital
and
say
look,
can
we
help
you
what's
going
on?
Do
you
need
anything?
C
It
means
if
you
know
what
community
they
live
in,
you
can
basically
tell
the
officers
who
police
that
community
like
look.
There
might
be
a
you
know,
a
beef
between
you
know,
drug
dealers
or
gangs
or
whoever
it
is
happening,
keep
an
eye
out
and
then
remember
that
there
are
a
lot
of
informants
and
other
people
who
work
with
the
police
who
provide
information,
and
so
people
provide
information.
Often
about
you
know
this
person
just
bought
an
illegal
gun.
C
So
it's
not
to
say
you
you
know,
and
I
I'm
short-handing
it
and
I
apologize
it's
not
to
say
you
make
a
list
of
people
and
you
go
arrest
them
it's
it's
more
to
be
sort
of
sensitive
to
the
fact
that
crime
works
and
patterns
and
that
the
goal
is
for
nobody
to
get
shot
right
and
to
disrupt
it
and
then
not
to
have
somebody
who
gets
arrested
and
goes
to
jail
as
well.
So
again,
it's
just
trying
to
think
a
little
bit
about.
A
Great
thank
you,
and
the
next
question
is
one
that
was
written
in
for
us.
In
what
specific
ways
would
you
like
to
see,
law
enforcement
officers
engage
with
issues
like
mental
health
crises,
substance
abuse
and
homelessness,
and
how
could
police
departments
address
these
problems
differently
than
social
workers
and
alternate
response?
Community
health
workers.
C
Yeah,
it's
a
great
question,
so
you
know
I
would
answer
both
sort
of
with
a
very
practical
answer,
maybe
and
then
just
sort
of
where
it's
possible
we
could
go,
which
is
that
today
you
know,
we
don't
really.
We
don't
have
alternate
health
workers
who
are
being
dispatched
by
the
9-1-1
call
centers
at
2
o'clock
in
the
morning.
We
don't
have
that
in
most
places
we
have
some
jurisdictions.
You
know
I
think
dallas
or
houston
is
one
johnson
county.
Kansas
is
another
where
they
dispatch
mental
health,
counselors
social
workers
with
officers.
C
Often
we
have
some
communities
that
are
now
and
I'm
a
big
proponent
of
this,
putting
behavioral
health
experts
in
the
dispatch
rooms
to
try
to
help
understand
when
it
would
be
appropriate
to
send
a
community
health
worker
or
a
social
worker
or
a
police
officer.
So
I
think
the
reality
right
now
is
that
police
across
america
are
really
doing
most
of
this
work.
I
agree
that
in
an
ideal
situation
there
will
be
a
lot
of
calls
where
it
would
be
incredibly
wonderful
to
be
able
to
send
a
trained,
behavioral
health
expert.
C
Now
I
want
to
caution
one
thing
with
that,
which
is
that
I
think
that
there
will
be
times
where
you
could
just
send
a
community
outreach,
worker
or
behavioral
health
expert.
I
think
there
will
time
there
will
be
times
where
you
just
send
a
police
officer
based
on
the
call
and
then
there'll
be
a
fair
number
of
times
in
the
middle,
where
you
know
you
get
a
call
with
somebody
wielding
a
knife.
C
You
are
going
to
send
law
enforcement,
but
ideally
you
also
have
somebody
who
has
mental
health
background
who
could
go
as
well
and
then
you
could
figure
out
in
a
fluid
situation,
who
should
be
the
primary
lead?
Who
should
take
the
lead
but
or
you
you
at
least
you
know,
that's
that's
one
example.
You
could
also
think
of
other
examples
that
are
less
clear
where
there's
a
potential
for
violence.
C
Where
there's
an
officer
you
understand
where
the
police
unit
is
nearby,
but
I
think
it's
really
important
to
note
that
you
know
what's
happening
in
police
departments
now
some
of
them
are
creating
like
quality
of
life.
I
don't
love
that
title,
because
it
comes
with
the
sort
of
ideas
of
like
what
happened
in
the
80s
and
90s
with
quality
of
life
enforcement.
But
basically
you
know
units
of
police
officers.
Some
are
armed,
some
are
not
that
go
out
and
try
to
to
sort
of
work
to
sort
of
solve
some
of
these.
A
Yeah,
thank
you,
and
actually
we
have
a
question
submitted
from
one
of
our
community
outreach
workers
here
in
ithaca,
which
is
an
interesting
timing
for
follow-up.
Natalia
who's,
one
of
our
community
outreach
workers
asks
police,
often
look
scary
and
threatening
what
are
different
ideas
to
demilitarize,
the
look
of
the
uniform
carrying
the
gun,
etc.
C
Yeah,
I
mean
it's
a
great
question.
I
mean
the
the
uniforms
it
is.
It
is
you
know,
police
departments
in
some
ways
are
run
like
the
military
in
some
ways:
they're
they're
not
having
worked
in
them.
The
military
is
more
of
a
chain
of
command,
sometimes
than
than
police
departments,
but
they
the
uniforms,
certainly
come
from
that,
and
you
know
some
police
departments
have
again
put
officers
on
the
street
without
weapons
depending
on
what
their
you
know,
what
their
responsibility
is.
But
it's
a
really
interesting
question
about
thinking
about.
C
Could
you
change
the
uniform
to
be
something
that
is
less
threatening?
And
I
think
you
know
the
way
I
would
sort
of
describe
this
is
this?
Is
the
right
conversation
to
have
because
the
vast
majority
I
mean?
I
think
everyone
on
this
call
understands
this,
but
violent
crime
is
less
than
five
percent
of
all
crime
and
yet
we've
trained
officers
we
arm
officers,
we
we
sort
of,
are
prepared
and
and
officers
have
to
be
for
their
safety
and
the
safety
of
the
community.
C
C
The
job
really
is
is
about
protecting
the
community
being
a
part
of
the
community
and
serving
the
community
and
so
to
the
extent
that
the
uniform
is
intimidating,
and
I
agree
with
you,
it
is,
I
think
it's
aimed
at
that
sort
of
four
or
five
percent
of
things
that
we
talk
about
officers
being
concerned
about,
and
yet
it's
really
an
important
part
of
the
job,
but
by
no
means
the
bulk
of
what
the
work
is.
So
I
think
it's
a
great
question.
I
also
think
that
you
know
look.
C
I
I
follow
research
really
closely.
I
think
some
of
the
research
on
community
outreach
workers
is
incredibly
promising
right.
This
idea
of
having
people
in
the
communities
the
cure
violence
model
has
had
has
had
success.
I
know
where
they've
sent
you
know
sort
of
community
violence
interrupters
in
and
again
I
don't
think
that
changes
the
need
for
law
enforcement
and
for
good
law
enforcement,
but
I
do
think
that
we
should
all
be
open
to
sort
of
having
these
conversations
about.
You
know
alternate
models.
C
I
do
want
to
also
say
one
other
thing,
though,
and-
and
this
is
really
for
the
mayor
and
the
county
folks,
there
is
a
time
when
people
call
9-1-1
and
and
look.
I
I
believe
we
should
do
everything
we
can
to
stop
crime
and
to
stop
that
9-1-1
call
from
happening,
but
those
calls
come
at
that
moment.
It
isn't
it
is.
C
There
is
going
to
be
someone
who
needs
to
go
into
a
community
that
dispatch,
if
it's
serious
and
if
it's
crime
will
need
to
happen
very
quickly
and
if
it's,
if
it's
something
that
relates
to
behavioral
health,
that
also
has
to
happen
within
a
reasonably
fast
amount
of
time.
So
again,
if
we
think
about
alternate
models,
it's
not
a
question
of
well,
you
can
just
you
know,
show
up
and
walk
the
street
from
eight
to
eight.
C
You
can
right,
if
you're,
if
you're
a
community
outreach
worker,
but
if
we
really
start
to
think
about
shifting
to
we're
dispatching
a
behavioral
health
expert
to
a
9-1-1
call
that
person
has
to
be
on
call,
and
that
has
to
be
someone
that
can
be
dispatched
to
solve
a
specific
problem
and
ideally
prevent
future
problems
right,
and
so
I
think,
there's
a
lot
of
value
in
this.
I
just
think
we
have
to
play
out
the
whole
scenario
and
really
be
thoughtful
about
what
it
means
and
how
you
know
this.
C
The
reason
the
police
have
ended
up
doing
a
lot
of
this
is
that
they
work
24,
7,
they're
on
a
dispatch
model,
and
so
we've
taken
this
as
as
what's
become
the
status
quo,
and
I
think
it
can
be
changed.
It
just
has
to
be
changed
with
an
eye
toward
like
when
someone
makes
that
call,
they
need
help,
and
we
have
to
make
sure
that
we're
prepared
to
to
give
help
for
whatever.
That
call
is.
A
H
E
H
C
Yeah,
it's
a
great
question,
so
you
know
the
officers
were
not
all
huge
fans
of
some
of
the
changes
we
made
at
the
beginning.
I
was
sued
by
the
fop
at
one
point,
which
is
part
of
doing
this
work
right
change
is
hard
and
you
know.
Basically,
we
made
a
decision.
We
wanted
officers
to
get
out
from
behind
desks
that
we
wanted
them
to
be
deployed
when
crime
was
happening
and
we
disrupted
a
lot
of
people's
lives,
and
so
there's
always
some
push
back
now.
C
C
We
want
to
know
what
the
crime
trend
is
in
this
neighborhood,
because
we're
hearing
some
stuff
in
the
community
and
that
to
me
was
a
moment
of
like
we've
broken
through,
because
people
now
see
the
value
and
they
start
they've
started
to
understand
and
internalize
why
it
works.
I
will
tell
you
that
look
modern
policing
and
the
stuff
we're
talking
about
it's
not
for
everyone
right.
If
all
you
want
to
do,
is
break
down
a
door
and
you
know
be
in
riot
gear
all
day
long.
C
Then,
frankly,
most
police
departments
in
america
are
probably
not
the
right
fit
for
someone
who
wants
that
job,
most
police
departments
doesn't
even
matter
if
it's
the
most
dangerous
city
in
america
like
camden
was
that
was
a
part
of
the
job,
but
a
lot
of
the
job
was
just
being
a
part
of
the
community
and
understanding
what
was
happening
and
being
really.
You
know.
We
were
data-driven
and
closing
open-air
drug
markets.
C
We
were
data-driven
and
understanding
like
what
shifts
we
should
have
the
officers
working
you
know,
so
it
really
is,
and
then
we
wanted
officers
on
the
street
and
we
sent
officers
to
community
barbecues
and
we,
you
know,
had
them
out
after
school,
when
kids
were
walking
home
from
school
sort
of
being
being
available
and
being
seen
in
the
community.
You
know
people
went
back
to
the
parks
that
there
was
nobody
in
when
I
started
in
camden,
and
so
officers
actually
really
felt
good
about
that.
C
You
know,
being
mostly
people
become
police
officers
to
serve
the
community,
and
so
you
know
was
there
a
huge
amount
of
resistance
at
the
beginning?
Absolutely
I
mean
there,
were
you
know
I
will.
I
will
tell
you
guys
that
I'm
saying
it
publicly.
I
don't
know
if
I've
told
the
story
before
publicly,
but
there
was
a
amazing
woman
who
was
in
her
80s
at
the
time
she'd
been
on.
C
I
think
the
city
council
in
camden
for
a
long
time-
and
you
know
we
were
in
it
with
the
redeployment
of
the
officers
and
people
who'd
worked
nine
to
five
monday
through
friday
and
then
started
working
six
o'clock
at
night
till
four
o'clock
in
the
morning
or
five
o'clock
morning.
Didn't
love
it
sometimes,
and
so
you
know
there
were
calls
that
I
got
about
stopping
frisks
happening
outside
of
churches
from
this
wonderful
woman,
who
called
me
and
basically
said,
keep
doing
it
whatever
you're
doing
it's
fine.
C
I
just
want
you
to
know.
I
got
stopped
this
morning
by
an
officer
and
so
look,
there's
resistance
and
it
is
it's
change
is
hard
and
I
think
we,
it's
incumbent
upon
us
to
show
the
value
of
that
change
and
to
show
why
it
matters
and
also
honestly,
to
be
deeply
committed
to
officer
safety,
and
I
always
took
very
seriously
that,
like
the
community,
safety
is
the
most
important
thing
officer.
C
Safety
is
the
most
important
thing,
and
so
once
you
sort
of
set
those
things
up,
but
we
got
a
lot
of
buy-in
and
you
know
going
from
the
community
not
wanting
to
have
an
officer
be
part
of
that
community
to
welcoming
the
officer
in
the
community.
You
know
the
feedback
was
good
from
the
officers,
so
I
don't
want
to
sugarcoat
it.
We've
ended
in
a
good
place,
but
it
was
you
know
we
had.
It
was
tough,
a
time.
A
Great
thanks.
The
question
we
got
through
youtube
was
well
folks
are
thanking
you
for
the
conversation
and
I'd
like
to
extend
that
as
well
from
our
groups.
They're
wondering
how
well
practices
translate
from
one
location
to
another.
Is
there
enough
similarity
across
departments,
and
how
might
you
go
about
comparing
camden
and
ithaca.
C
C
C
C
Camden
does
an
amazing
job
of
this
and
there
are
a
handful
of
others,
but
really
it's
integrated
sort
of
community
concerns
and
sentiment
and
feedback
on
officers
into
the
nervous
system
of
the
police
department,
and
so
I
see
basically,
most
police
departments
being
really
reactive,
lacking
accountability,
lacking
connections
to
the
community,
not
understanding
or
knowing
how
to
manage
their
911
calls
and
their
dispatches
and
so
and
frankly,
also
a
lot
of
them.
Don't
have
good
violence
reduction
programs.
C
Another
thing,
a
lot
of
them
are
really
bad
and
I'm
giving
you
the
laundry
with
listing,
which
and
there's
varying
degrees
of
this,
but
but
they
tend
to
many
police
departments,
tend
to
suffer
from
these
same
things.
They
don't
fully
understand
mental
health
or
substance
abuse
challenges
in
the
community.
They
may
respond,
but
they
they
don't
really
track.
C
So
I
mean
there's
a
lot
of
ways
in
which
policing
is
not
modernized
in
the
way
that
I
think
it
should,
and-
and
so
you
know
all
the
things
I
talk
about
in
camden
to
varying
degrees,
I
think,
are
really
challenges
in
other
departments
and
again
some
it's
a
continuum.
Some
are
some
are
more
successful,
some
some
struggle
more,
but
you
know
almost
all
of
them.
C
Yeah,
so
I
think
I
don't
have
the
data
in
front
of
me
for
the
last
the
last
decade,
or
so
I
can
tell
you
that
when
I
was
overseeing
camden,
we
had
the
feds
came
in
from
the
unit.
I
had
worked
in
the
civil
rights
unit
and
did
a
massive
civil
rights
investigation,
ultimately
prosecuted
for
camden
police
officers.
So
there
was
a
depth
of
corruption
within
the
department
that
I
can
promise.
You
is
no
longer
there,
but
it
was.
C
It
was
dire
in
in
some
ways
the
officers
were
planting
drugs,
they
were
taking
money
and
it
was
for
officers
who
were
ultimately
charged,
and
that
is
a
cancer
in
a
police
department,
and
I
don't
need
to
tell
anyone
on
this
call
just
how
devastating
that
can
be.
So
camden
has
made
enormous
strides.
I
don't
have
the
specific
numbers
in
front
of
me.
I
think
that
the
there
are
a
couple
pieces
that
I
would
sort
of
talk
about
on
discipline,
which
is
one
I
don't
think
you
know.
C
C
Here's
what
information
will
make
public
what
information
we
want
officers,
their
employees,
their
privacy,
their
privacy,
concerns
there
as
well,
but
really
really
being
just
sort
of
deeply
transparent
about
it.
The
second
piece
I
would
say
is
I've
done
enough
work
around
data
and
discipline
to
say
the
following
thing:
the
vast
majority
of
officers.
C
If
they
get
a
complaint
a
year,
they
get
a
complaint
a
year,
the
vast
majority
of
officers-
and
it
comes
back
to
the
conversation
we
were
having
about
the
small
but
critical
number
of
folks
who
engage
in
criminal
behavior
or
the
people
we
worry
about.
The
same
is
true
and
whatever
you
do
when
you
understand,
there's
a
small
group
of
people
that
are
driving
a
lot
of
the
problems,
and
so
what
do
we
do?
When
that
happens?
C
I
can
tell
you
in
new
jersey,
when
I
was
a
g,
I
oversaw
the
racial
profiling
consent,
decree
of
the
state
police,
I
oversaw
the
state
police
and
one
of
the
things
that
we
instituted.
There
was
an
early
warning
system
and
cameras
on
cars,
and
so
basically
what
happened
is
instead
of
waiting
for
a
huge
problem
and
a
huge
amount
of
discipline.
We
were
able
to
stop
things
before
they.
C
They
became
bad
and
it
had
a
huge
impact
on
the
overall
sort
of
outcomes
and
and
equity
and
fairness
within
the
state
police,
and
so
I
think,
you're
asking
really
good
questions.
I
mean
I
would
both
advocate
being
more
data-driven,
more
transparent
and
thinking
a
lot
about
the
fact
that
again,
we
have
to
put
the
community
sentiment
and
community
feedback
into
the
sort
of
nervous
system
of
the
police
department
to
the
point
where
now
in
camden
and
this
this
sounds
like
an
interesting
thing
but
like
so.
C
If
there's
a
complaint
against
an
officer,
a
supervisor
may
talk
we'll
talk
to
the
officer
about
that
or
there's,
like
you
know,
there's
a
process
through
which,
if
there's
depending
on
the
severity
there
might
be
disciplinary
proceedings,
but
the
converse
is
also
true.
So
if
a
citizen
or
community
member
writes
and
says
officer
smith
was
great,
a
sergeant
may
shout
out
at
a
roll
call.
Look
officer,
smith
did
a
fantastic
job.
We
just
want.
A
C
Yeah,
so
I
think
I
I
would
sort
of
argue
community
engagement
has
to
happen
on
a
lot
of
levels.
One
you
have
to
have
officers
in
the
community.
You
just
do
right.
You
have
to
have
people
who
are
get
to
know
members
of
the
community
that
the
community
gets
comfortable
with
them
and
makes
a
big
difference.
Two
community
meetings,
conversations
that
the
community
wants
to
have
the
police
have
to
be
a
part
of
whenever
they're
asked.
In
my
view
of
those
meetings.
C
The
third
is
that,
even
with
those
two
things,
there
are
a
lot
of
members
of
the
community
that
we
don't
reach
or
that
we
only
touch
when
they
make
a
9-1-1
call
or
when
they're
a
witness
to
a
crime
or
when
something
has
gone
wrong
and
so
or
they
just
have
a
concern
in
the
community
and
so
in
camden.
Again,
we
built
sort
of
the
the
data
system
to
be
reaching
to
have
a
way
for
people
in
the
community
to
to
reach
in
to
the
police
department.
Say
I'm
worried
about
this
in
my
street.
C
I'm
worried
about
this
in
my
neighborhood.
If
someone
interacted
with
an
officer
to
be
able
to
give
feedback
about
what
that
was,
like
you
know
again,
we
should
all
be
asking
this
question
of
like
we
could
do
almost
everything
we're
all
meeting
by
zoom,
which
is
an
amazing
thing
like
we
can
do
almost
anything
by
phone
like.
C
Why
haven't
we
made
a
commitment
to
have
the
what
the
community
cares
about,
be
a
priority
for
the
police
department
and
really
just
part
of
like
you
know
what
we
think
about
when
we
think
about
how
do
we
deploy
resources?
How
do
we
pick
priorities,
this
stuff
matters,
and
so
I
am
a
huge
advocate
for
community
meetings,
I'm
a
huge
advocate
for
officers
in
the
street,
but
I
also
think
that
there
have
to
be
other
ways,
and
I
I'm
an
advocate
for
technology.
C
There
may
be
other
ideas
that
folks
have,
but
I
think
it's
really
important
to
put
it
into
the
lifeblood
of
the
police
department
and
not
have
it
just
be.
You
know,
people
an
officer
shows
up
at
a
community
meeting
gets
an
earful
goes
back
to
the
department,
doesn't
convey
any
of
it.
It
has
to
be
done
in
a
way
that
really
gets
noted
and
followed
in
the
department.
A
A
C
Yeah,
I
mean
it's
a
great
question.
You
know
we
see
we
are
seeing
huge
percentages
of
opioids
across
a
number
of
jurisdictions
that
we
work
in.
No
doubt
and
look,
I
think
if,
if
we
did
the
sort
of
breakdown
of
mental
health
substance
abuse,
I
gave
you
the
sort
of
48
50
percents,
that
of
the
research
project.
We
we
did,
I
think
more,
was
mental
health
than
than
than
substance
abuse,
but
the
amount
that's
co-occurring
is
also
very
high,
meaning
that
one
person
may
suffer
from
both
from
both
challenges.
C
So
there
are
a
few
things
I
mean.
I
think
one
is
there's
a
real
move
in
communities,
including
in
indianapolis,
so
we
started
our
work
in
indianapolis,
building
the
screening
tool
for
law
enforcement
for
mental
health
and
substance
abuse
to
try
to
just
sort
of
answer
the
question
of
why
more
people
weren't
being
diverted
out
of
the
system
to
treatment
and
a
lot
of
what
we
found
was
that
we
weren't
training
officers
on
how
to
identify
mental
health
or
substance
abuse.
C
We
were
making
it
very
subjective
so
that,
if
an
officer,
you
know
again
with
this
sort
of
pretty
hierarchical
organization,
if
you
give
a
very
junior
officer
a
lot
of
discretion,
sometimes
it's
not
easy
to
exercise
that
discretion
unless
you're
sure,
and
especially
if
you're
saying
instead
of
prosecuting
you
I'm
going
to
give
you
treatment.
If
something
goes
wrong
with
that
individual
they
commit
another
crime
in
the
community.
That
officer
could
be
held
accountable
unless
there's
a
more
objective
way
of
figuring
out.
C
C
There
are
a
number
of
folks
who
will
benefit
enormously
from
medical
treatment,
will
ultimately
commit
less
crime
if
they
successfully
receive
treatment,
but
need
some
case
management
and
assistance
with
getting
connected
to
to
services
and
treatments.
And
so
you
know
we
we've
sort
of.
I
like
that
model,
because
I
think
it's
you
know
it.
It
sort
of
really
is
kind
of
a
case
management
model.
The
other
model
that
we're
we've
personally
worked
a
lot
on
is
building
this
tool
for
police
officers.
That
can
help
identify.
C
Should
you
take
someone
for
mental
health
treatment?
Should
you
teach
take
someone
for
substance,
abuse
treatment,
and
the
next
question
is:
how
will
we
connect
that
with
services
in
a
community
so
for
each
department?
We
do
that
with
how
we
sort
of
identify.
Well,
here
are
the
places
where
someone
should
go
for
mental
health
and
here's
where
they
should
go
for
substance
abuse
kind
of
thing,
but
I
think
it's
the
right
way
to
think
about.
C
Like
you
know,
if
an
officer
shows
up
and
there's
somebody
suffering
from
one
of
those
either
mental
health
or
substance
abuse-
and
you
know
in
many
instances
again,
if
you
think
about
the
number
of
911
calls
that
are
non-criminal
in
nature.
The
officer
just
leaves
right
and
that
guarantees
that
there'll
be
another
911
call
and
that
person
doesn't
get
treatment
or
connected
services,
and
so
there
has
to
be
a
lot
of
thought
into
what
the
better
way
might
be.
C
You
know,
I
don't
know
the
research
on
that.
I
would
be
super
interested
in
knowing
it.
I
think
that
that's
a
really
good
question
and
I'm
gonna
tell
you
I
don't
know
and
I'll
look
it
up
after
this,
but
you
know:
there's
there's
it's
ideal
for
officers
to
live
in
the
jurisdiction.
It's
not
always
possible
for
a
variety
of
reasons,
but
I
think
that
different
communities
have
looked
at
this
differently.
C
To
me,
I'll
tell
you
my
my
very,
very
strong
assessment
is
that
police
departments
need
to
have
a
diversity
of
men
and
women.
They
need
to
have
a
diversity
of
you
know:
people
of
color
and
and
and
and
white
white
individuals.
I
mean
traditionally,
you
know
it's
been
a
pretty
white
male
dominated
profession
and
we
need
we
representation
matters
having
people
in
the
communities
that
we
serve.
C
Who
look
like
the
communities
we
serve
matters,
and
so
I
worry
more
about
those
numbers
and
making
sure
there
are
enough
people
at
all
levels
of
the
organization,
including
leadership
levels
than
I
do
about,
specifically
where
people
are
are
living.
But
again
I
think
it's
a
really
interesting
question.
A
really
sort
of
fair
research
question
and
I'll
look
one
thing.
C
I'd
also
notice,
one
of
the
reasons
why
some
of
the
research
is
hard
in
this
space
is
that
it's
hard
to
isolate
one
thing,
and
so
you
know
we
made
so
many
changes
in
camden
people
said:
oh,
did
you
research
this
specific
thing?
You
know
we
weren't
worried
about
research
at
the
time
we
were
worried
about,
you
know
making
the
community
safe,
and
so
we
did
a
lot
of
things
at
once
and
a
lot
of
things
we
know
failed
what
what
the
magic
sauce
was
like.
C
A
J
Okay,
I
want
to
thank
you
for
lifting
up
community
service.
I
mean
community
safety
and
restoring
that
classic
phrase
of
the
police
as
those
who
protect
and
serve
and
talking
about
guardians
not
warriors,
but
there
has
been
a
militarization
of
our
society
as
a
whole,
but
especially
within
our
police
departments,
and
I'm
wondering
what
kind
of
retraining
is
needed,
not
just
for
helping
existing
officers
have
a
new
mindset
about
the
community,
but
this
is
a
very
focused
one,
but
that
reflects
this
broader
change
that
you've
been
describing
so
well.
J
What
did
you
do
to
retrain
reflexes,
like
one
of
my
concerns
is
that
officers
are
taught
to
shoot
to
kill
their
targets,
have
a
head
and
a
torso,
and
and
I'm
somebody
I
love
the
idea
of
patrols
who
don't
carry
any
guns
at
all.
But
when
people
do
have
guns,
my
feeling
is:
they
should
really
know
how
to
aim
carefully
and
they
shouldn't
be
aiming
to
shoot
to
kill,
and
I'm
just
wondering
if
there
was
any
form
of
retraining
along
those
lines
to
undo
reflexes
as
well.
C
C
Making
low-level
arrests
right,
do
not
come
back
with
them
as
a
rule,
unless
there's
a
reason
why
you're
worried
about
the
guy
who's
drinking
an
open,
40-ounce
bottle
of
beer
on
his
porch
on
a
summer
day,
because
it's
hot
out
and
he
doesn't
have
air
conditioning
like
do
not
walk
in
with
that,
and
that
was
a
sea
change
from
where
the
department
had
been
right,
and
so
the
idea
was
basically
like.
We
want
you
in
the
community.
We
want
you
to
be
worried
about
serious
crime.
We
want
you
to
be
focused
on
that.
C
Obviously,
if
you
see
something
you
think
is
critically
important
like
we're
not
telling
you,
you
can't
be
an
enforcer
of
the
law,
but
some
of
protecting
and
serving
is
is
sort
of
being
a
part
of
a
community,
and
so
we
we
really
tried
to
just
basically,
you
know,
drive
that
home
of
how
important
it
was
like
that
this
was
about
safety.
This
wasn't
about
making
a
rest
for
crime.
That
was
one
thing.
C
Another
thing
that
I
think
is
really
important
is
constant
training,
and
so
I
think
we
have
not
spent
enough
time
going
back
over.
What
do
our
police
academies
look
like?
What
are
the?
What
are
the
sort
of
updated
trainings
look
like
I
mean.
Basically,
the
way
officers
are
trained
is
by
senior
officers.
C
That's
how
you
start
to
sort
of
change
the
conversation,
the
other
thing,
which
I
think
you
have
a
de-escalation
policy,
but
I
camden
did
this
a
few
years
back
and
I
think
it
is
a
really
important
policy,
which
is
the
training
and
the
the
it
is.
I
think
the
best
de-escalation
policy
in
the
country,
which
is
basically
to
say
you,
do
everything
you
can
before
you
draw
your
weapon
and
it
basically
puts
the
responsibility
on
the
officer
not
to
be
unsafe.
C
It
actually,
I
think,
makes
the
officer
more
safe
because
there's
a
protocol
that
they
follow
to
make
sure
that
they're
doing
everything
by
the
book
if
they
can
retreat
and
be
in
a
safer
spot.
They
do,
but
just
this
idea
that,
like
your
first
and
most
important
job,
is
to
de-escalate
the
situation.
It's
a
total
game,
changer
and
we've
seen
incredibly
positive
results
come
out
of
that,
and
so
I
think
you're
right
on
training.
C
I
think
you're
right
on
I
personally,
I
favor
frequent
training
to
the
extent
it
can
be
done,
but
I
also
think
that
the
policies
have
to
be
reflective
of
the
values
and
they
have
to
be
enforced,
and
so,
if
they're
not
followed
again,
they
have
to
be
clear.
You
know
it's
really
important
from
an
officer
standpoint
also
just
to
sort
of
argue
for
for
this
position
like
it
has
to
be
clear
what
they're
required
to
do
and,
and
that
has
to
be
enforced
and
followed
fairly,
and
so
that
lets
them
know.