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From YouTube: May 21, 2018 Council Study Session
Description
Minneapolis Council Study Session
C
D
Great
to
have
everybody
up
here,
it's
nice
to
see
people
from
st.
Paul
Minneapolis
sitting
together
here,
interested
in
the
same
topic
and
worse
I'm,
so
glad
you
accepted
the
invitation
to
come
and
join
us
I'm
gonna.
Let
staff
start
out
the
presentation
if
you
want
to
give
us
any
advice
about
when
to
ask
questions
and
when
not
to
we'll
take
that
advice,
but
I
generally
encourage
folks
to
feel
free
like
to
free
to
ask
questions
along
the
way
if
you're
like
me.
E
Hello
good
afternoon,
council,
members
and
city
st.
Paul
guests,
thanks
for
being
here
today
to
have
a
study
session
on
inclusive
financing.
My
name
is
Lou
Conlon
camp
I'm
in
the
city
coordinators,
office,
brother,
division
of
sustainability
and
we're
also
joined
here
today
by
Ellen
Anderson
at
the
energy
transition
lab
at
the
University
of
Minnesota
and
Harlan
Blackman
of
the
energy
efficiency
Institute
and
I'd.
Welcome
you
to
ask
questions
as
we
go
along.
E
B
E
E
One
of
the
ways
we
measure
affordability
is
through
home
energy
burden
and
that's
essentially,
the
percentage
that
a
household
is
spending
of
their
income
on
their
utility
costs,
and
a
recent
study
by
the
American
Council
for
energy,
efficient
yeah
economy
has
shown
that
in
Minneapolis
that
energy
cost
burden
is
about
2.3
percent.
On
average.
However,
we
see
in
different
groups
that
that's
much
higher,
for
instance
low-income
households
that
cause
burns
over
5%
African
American
households
over
4%
and
Latino
households
over
3%.
E
So
there
are
different
areas
of
the
population
that
are
definitely
seeing
a
higher
energy
cost
burden
than
the
median
burden
across
the
entire
community.
And
in
addition,
an
interesting
finding
about
this
is
that
those
low-income
households,
renters
African
American
houses
and
Latino
households
are
paying
more
further
utilities
than
an
average
household
on
a
per
square
foot
basis.
And
what
that
actually
means
is
that
they
actually
residing
in
less
efficient
housing.
E
So
this
isn't
just
a
matter
of
discussion
on
incomes
for
households,
but
it's
also
matter
that
those
in
those
lower
incomes
are
those
groups
are
also
in
less
efficient
housing
overall
and
that's
why
they're
paying
at
a
higher
energy
cost
burden,
and
there
are
many
cost
effective
energy
efficiency
and
weatherization
measures
that
exist
and
that
can
help
alleviate
that
burden.
However,
many
of
those
do
require
upfront,
capital
or
financing
to
make
those
investments
possible.
E
This
obviously
is
an
issue
that
we've
been
thinking
about
for
some
time.
In
fact,
it
originated
in
our
climate
action
plan
where
the
City
Council
adopted
the
strategy
to
develop
tools
to
finance
energy
efficiency
and
renewable
energy
retrofits
for
commercial
buildings
and
residential
buildings,
and
that
those
tools
have
low
barriers
to
entry
and
limited
risk
for
local
government.
On
this
strategy.
The
climate
action
plan
goes
further
to
say
that
property
assessed
financing,
on-bill
financing
and
other
financial
mechanisms
could
provide
low-interest
financing
opportunities
for
homeowners
and
commercial
properties.
E
However,
high
interest
rates,
the
need
for
perfect
credit
and
complex
program
designs
can
all
be
barriers,
so
widespread
adoption
of
these
programs,
especially
for
the
low-income
households.
We
just
showed,
have
a
high
energy
cost
burden
and
that
a
well-designed
strategy
or
program
should
include
a
it,
should
maximize
participation
of
groups
and
provide
access
to
all
housing
types
and
income
levels,
and
that
the
city
should
identify
and
develop
tools
that
provide
more
opportunities
for
energy
efficiency
and
renewable
energy
financing.
E
E
Expecting
a
soft
launch
in
late
2018
and
then
a
full
launch
in
early
2019
and
furthermore,
another
activity
in
that
clean
energy
partnership
work
plan
says
that
Xcel
Energy
will
work
with
some
point:
energy,
beginning
six
months
after
the
Center
Point
Energy
tool
has
rolled
out
or
after
cert
Point
Energy
has
rolled
out
its
own
bill
repayment
program
to
assess
their
point.
Energy's
experience
with
the
program
in
order
to
determine
next
steps.
So
we
think
that
utilities
for
their
cooperation
on
the
subject
as
well.
E
E
Here
today,
and
when
is
currently
the
executive
director,
the
energy
transition
lab
prior
to
this
role
and
one
was
a
senior
advisor
on
energy,
burn
mental
policy
policy
to
Governor
Mark
Dayton
and
also
served
as
chair
of
the
Minnesota
Public
Utilities
Commission.
Additionally,
Ellen
served
in
the
Minnesota
Senate
from
1993
to
2011,
where
she
chaired
the
jobs
and
energy
Community
Development
Committee,
the
Commerce
Committee,
the
energy
and
telecommunications
committee
and
the
environment,
energy
and
natural
resource
finance
me.
E
So
she
is
I,
think
very
well-versed
in
the
subject
and
when
I
come
forward
to
hearing
more
from
her.
In
addition
to
this
world,
energy
transition
lab
currently
Ellen
serves
as
a
member
of
the
Citizens
League
electrical
energy,
Study
Committee,
and
an
observer
to
the
e21
project
and
the
utility
new
utility
business
models,
and
she
also
serves
on
the
advisory
boards
of
the
university
Minnesota's
joint
degree
program
in
law,
science
and
technology
and
the
will
steiger
foundation
and
with
that
I'd
like
to
turn
it
over
to
Alan
Anderson.
Thank.
F
Thank
you
so
much.
Thank
you
Luke
and
greetings
council
members.
It's
a
pleasure
to
be
here
with
you
and
I.
Think
I
need
to
update
my
bio,
because
I
don't
think
that
citizens
League
committee
exists
anymore.
Sorry,
not
your
fault
mine,
so
I
apologize
for
that.
So
thank
you.
I'm
just
going
to
speak
briefly
and
talk
about
what
the
role
of
the
energy
transition
lab
would
be
in
this
study.
F
F
Some
of
the
just
quickly.
Some
of
the
examples
of
what
we
work
on
we've
done.
We've
done
a
lot
of
work
on
energy
storage
and
did
an
analysis
last
year
on
using
solar
and
storage
as
an
alternative
to
get
natural
gas
peaking
plants.
We
work
on
the
logo,
PEC
logo,
pep
project
with
many
partners,
helping
cities
in
the
metro
area.
Smaller
cities
work
on
energy
and
climate
solutions,
and
we
are
part
of
a
team.
That's
working
to
help
develop
the
idea
of
a
micro
grid
in
North
Minneapolis,
which
some
of
you
may
be
aware
of.
F
So
for
us,
one
of
our
core
values
is
that
at
just
as
the
cities
is
and
I'm
sure
and
I
say,
Paul's
is
as
well
is
equity
in
our
energy
system
and
in
our
energy
transition.
We're
very
well
aware
that,
as
we
try
to
transform
and
our
energy
system
and
make
it
better,
we
need
all
people
to
be
part
of
that
process.
We
won't
be
successful
otherwise,
and
we
don't
want
to
embed
inequities
in
our
new
improved
energy
system
that
we're
building
together.
F
So
we're
really
interested
in
looking
for
solutions
for
low-income
customers,
so
they
can
participate
meaningfully
in
the
clean
energy
economy
and
that's
what
drives
our
interest
in
participating
in
this
particular
study.
So,
as
I'm
sure
you
all
know,
Minnesota
has
an
excellent
track
record
in
energy
efficiency
work.
But
one
of
the
hardest
pieces
of
that
is
is
really
responding
to
the
needs
of
low-income
communities
who
often
pay
a
higher
percent
of
their
income
on
energy
as
Luke
laid
out.
So
that
is
a
high
priority
for
our
cities
and
our
state.
F
So
we
see
inclusive
financing
as
having
high
potential
as
a
as
a
potential
strategy
to
address
that.
But
we
think
that
we
need
to
have
a
study
to
really
know
if
it
would
work
well
in
Minnesota
and
to
analyze
it
and
to
do
some
objective
and
well
vetted
research
to
help
us
understand
how
it
could
affect
both
customers,
utilities
and
those
customer
other
ratepayers
that
might
that
that
aren't
low
income,
especially
in
different
utility
jurisdictions.
F
So
we
are
looking
at
the
scope
would
be
about
on-bill
financing
that
has
a
particular
focus
on
avoiding
credit
risk
issues
so
that
all
people
could
be
eligible
for
participation
if
they
have
credit
risk
issues.
A
lot
of
work
has
been
done
in
this
area,
but
mostly
it's
been
in
co-op
territories
and
mostly
in
more
southern
states,
and
so
there's
some
very
important
questions
to
ask
about
climatic
differences.
Will
this
kind
of
approach
work
well
in
the
state
of
Minnesota,
with
our
cold
climate?
F
Are
there
opportunities
and
are
they
cost-effective?
Those
are
really
the
questions
we
seek
to
answer
with
this
study
and,
of
course,
every
state
has
different
rules
and
laws
relating
to
energy
and
conservation,
improvement,
programs,
etc.
We
envision
the
study,
it
would
certainly
include
deaths
and
electric
utilities.
F
We
are
grateful
that
the
McKnight
Foundation,
as
well
as
the
city
of
Minneapolis,
has
committed
to
funding
this
study
and
we're
still
looking
for
perhaps
one
other
funding
partner
and
our
intention
to
be
to
contract--
with
a
consultant
who
really
has
expertise
on
this
particular
type
of
analysis,
and
we
would
work
with
them
and
I
can
talk
in
more
detail
about
what
the
analysis
would
include,
but
to
keep
in
like
five
minutes.
I'll
save
that
for
questions,
but
I'll
just
jump
ahead
to
kind
of
what
we
can
expect
as
a
result
of
this
study.
F
F
How
we
would
do
this
is
through
convening
and
collaboration
with
many
stakeholders.
We
would
intend
to
set
up
an
advisory
committee
of
key
stakeholders
that
would
participate
in
doing
a
formal
scoping
of
the
study
and
getting
into
detail
with
the
consultant
on
that,
and
we
expect
the
study
would
last
about
three
months
and
we
would
intend
to
have
this
advisory
group
that
would
include
community
members,
officials
from
the
city
or
other
participants
in
this
discussion
process,
community
members
etc
and.
F
Council,
member
that
hasn't
been
determined
but
I,
certainly
the
city
of
Minneapolis
would
be
part
of
it.
As
I
said,
we
would
look
at
different
utilities
in
different
parts
of
the
state
so
including
some
io,
u--'s,
coops
and
meu
knees,
but
probably
I'm,
guessing
probably
a
couple
of
iou
areas,
and
at
least
one
co-op
and
one
municipal
utility
and
I'm
not
sure
how
much
geography
of
those
each
of
those
utility
jurisdictions
we
could
cover
in
this
study.
You
know
it
would
have
to
have
a
limited
scope
in
size.
D
I'm
just
curious
also
if
st.
Paul
could
be
included
in
the
study
potentially
and
looking
at
that
geography,
if
the
Twin
Cities
did
it
or
Metro
had
some
kind
of
a
program
together,
I
think
it
would
make
a
bigger
difference.
I'm
also
curious
about
you,
you
kind
of
mentioned
impact
on
low-income
customers
and
then
all
the
ratepayers
are.
You
gonna
be
thinking
about
this
in
bigger
terms
and
like
what
kind
of
impact
this
potentially
could
have
on
fossil
fuel.
F
That's
a
great
question:
we
absolutely
would
consider
what
opportunities
an
ideal
model
an
ideal
model.
A
financial
model
would
bring
to
low-income
customers
to
participate
in
clean
energy
improvements,
whether
that's
building
envelope,
improvements,
weatherization
appliance
upgrades,
renewable
energy
deployment,
on-site.
F
Substitution
of
different
kinds
of
heating
technology
for
conventional
legacy,
heating
technologies,
and
so
absolutely
the
goal
would
be
to
enable
low-income
residents
to
have
access
to
some
of
those
in
a
way
that
was
affordable
and
financially
viable
and
I.
Don't
know
if
we
can
include
you
know
the
carbon
reduction
been
a
potential
benefit,
but
that's
a
great.
It
would
be
a
great
addition
to
this
study
and
if
we
can,
if
we
can
add
that
to
our
scope,
I
would
be
really
excited
about
that.
F
D
Be
and
I
think
that
would
help
be
guests
get
excited
about
it.
Also.
It
seems
to
me
that
a
pay
as
you
save
model,
is
something
that
could
be
a
very
appealing
to
anybody,
regardless
of
your
income.
It's
a
different
way.
You're
not
taking
on
you
know,
debt
I
mean
it's
a
different
way
to
finance
items
and
I,
hopefully,
you'll
be
studying
a
little
bit
about
what
you
think.
If
the
opportunity
was
there,
what
would
the
usage
actually
be
and
not
know
surveying
a
little
or
getting
some
impacts?
D
D
I'll
just
remind
everybody
that
this
is
this
is
being
broadcast
and
taped,
but
also
if
anybody
wants
to
see
the
powerpoints
and
the
presentations
they
can
go
online
and
they're
all
available
on
the
city's
website.
And
if
you
folks
have
a
question
up
here,
you
can
just
take
your
little
card
here
and
stand
it
up
like
that,
and
then
I
can
recognize
you
and
if
that
doesn't
work,
just
bang
it
on
the
table
or
shout
at
me
and
I'm,
not
seeing
any
other
questions
right
now.
E
G
Our
homes
would
be
fixed
up
so
that
you're
cool
in
the
middle
of
summer
and
nice
and
warm
in
the
dead
of
winter,
and
you
have
more
money
every
year
for
things
you
need.
Your
electric
utility
can
make
it
possible.
Here's
how
first
they
send
a
certified
contractor
to
your
home
to
see
what
energy
efficiency
improvements
can
be
made
to
lower
your
electric
bill.
Then
your
utility
pays
for
improvements
like
replacing
old
energy
guzzling
equipment
and
sealing
up
your
home
or
apartment
against
the
heat
and
cold.
G
You
end
up
with
a
more
comfy
and
healthy
home,
and
your
electric
bill
goes
down
because
you're
not
using
as
much
energy.
The
utility
recovers
its
costs
for
the
upgrades
through
a
charge
on
your
bill,
but
the
charge
is
less
than
the
savings,
so
your
bill
is
still
lower.
There
are
no
loans,
no
credit
checks
and
no
debt
and
everyone
can
participate,
even
if
you
rent,
instead
of
on
your
place.
If
you
move
the
charges
and
the
savings
simply
apply
to
the
next
folks
moving
in
easy
right,
it's
called
pay.
H
D
H
H
My
purpose
is
to
provide
you
with
more
detailed
information
and
to
answer
more
detailed
questions
that
you
have
I'm
going
to
start
with
a
presentation.
If
you
can
hold
your
questions
to
the
end,
that
would
be
good,
but
it
would
be
terrible
if
you're
getting
lost
and
you
don't.
Let
me
know
because
then
I.
We
should
stop
and
answer
the
questions.
What
we're
trying
to
structure
this
so
that
some
general
information
for
all
of
you
is
in
the
beginning
and
then
individual
questions
at
any
level
can
be
asked.
H
H
H
By
trade
we
started
out
in
Vermont,
delivering
direct
services
to
low
income,
weatherization
programs
to
State
and
utility
programs,
both
energy
audit
and
arranging
services
and
utility
financing
and
Leasing
programs.
All
before
we
develop
pays
in
1998
to
1999,
we've
provided
direct
services
to
all
types
of
customers,
residential
and
including
low
to
moderate
or
average
income
customers,
small
and
commercial
customers
and
municipal
governments,
including
schools
and
hospitals,
and
we've
worked
with
pays
to
help.
H
The
very
first
pays
customer
was
the
Town
of
Stratford
New
Hampshire.
They
used
paste,
implement
a
very
cost
effective
street
lighting
project.
The
project
only
costs
$13,000
to
change
and
relocate
58
fixtures.
The
savings
were
almost
sixty
three
hundred
dollars
in
annual
savings,
and,
if
you
do
the
math
quickly,
it's
very
close
to
a
two-year
payback.
But
voters
turn
this
project
down
twice.
H
H
H
H
Hayes
programs
are
the
only
examples
of
inclusive
financing.
In
my
talk
today,
I
will
use,
pays
and
inclusive
financing
interchangeably.
So
what
does
it
do?
It
allows
utilities
to
invest
in
money-saving
resource
efficiency,
upgrades
on
the
customer
side
of
the
meter
with
no
upfront
payment,
no
debt
obligation,
those
who
benefit
from
the
savings
pay
the
utility
back
through
a
tariff
to
charge
on
the
utility
bill.
H
Tariffed
is
a
fancy
word
for
an
approved
rate
and
it's
in
the
Book
of
race,
but
only
for
as
long
as
the
customer
occupies
the
location
where
the
upgrades
were
installed
when
a
customer
vacates
the
premises.
The
payment
obligation
is
automatically
assumed
by
the
next
owner
or
occupant
at
that
location.
Who
gets
the
savings
and
therefore
must
pay
the
program
charges?
The
monthly
charge
is
always
significantly
lower
than
the
upgrades
estimated
savings
and
remains
on
the
bills
for
that
location
until
the
utility
recovers.
H
H
H
H
A
H
Customers,
schools,
hospital
customers
can
all
participate
and
they
don't
need
approvals
from
bull
voters
or
boards,
because
they're
not
taking
on
new
debt
or
changing
the
budget.
Someone
earlier
talked
about
equity
and
it
to
me
it's
an
equity
issue
to
offer
a
program
charge
to
all
customers
that
effectively
bars
more
than
half
of
the
utilities.
Customers
participate.
H
So
where
has
it
been
done?
There
have
been
17
programs
in
seven
states
in
Hawaii
the
program
was
a
solar
hot
water
program.
In
California
the
programs
have
been
water
saving
programs,
things
like
installing
high-efficiency
toilets,
shower
heads
irrigation
for
replacing
turf
with
dry
irrigation
landscaping.
H
Most
pace
programs
allow
customers
to
save
all
resources,
regardless
of
the
resource
provided
by
the
implementing
utility
programs
have
been
operated
by
io
u--'s
coops
and
municipal
utilities.
I'll
review
the
program
results
from
around
the
country
a
little
later,
but
the
pay's
system
is
implemented
in
other
states
can
be
instructive,
but
these
examples
are
not
the
only
way
to
implement
pace.
It's
a
system,
it's
flexible.
It
can
be
adapted
to
the
needs
of
any
location.
H
I'm
now
going
to
discuss
the
differences
between
inclusive
financing
and
other
types
of
debt
based
financing
debt
based
financing
includes
on-bill
financing
where
the
capital
comes
from
the
utility.
It
includes
on
bill
repayment,
where
the
utility
puts
the
charge
on
the
bill,
but
the
capital
comes
from
a
third
party.
It
includes
pace,
property
assessed,
clean
energy,
where
payment
is
with
property
taxes
and
now
we're
going
to
look
at
the
differences
or
three
types
of
differences
between
pays
and
debt
based
products.
H
H
Inclusive
financing
is
different.
It
starts
with
utility
investments
on
the
customer
side
of
the
meter,
it's
governed
not
by
the
state
financing
law,
since
it's
not
financing
but
by
the
utility
regulations
and
issues
are
resolved
by
utility
regulators
or
the
utility
board
for
utilities
that
are
not
regulated
by
a
state
or
utility
regulator.
H
From
the
customer
perspective,
debt
based
financing
is
a
consumer
debt
obligation.
Individual
customers
are
on
the
hook.
The
whole
amount
of
an
efficiency
upgrade
they
borrower
must
pay
off
the
balance
due
whenever
they
leave.
If
the
upgrade
fails,
they
have
to
keep
paying
no
matter
what
customers
get
no
assurance
from
the
lender,
that
they
will
see
immediate
net
savings
or
that
the
upgrades
will
continue
to
function
for
the
duration
of
payments.
The
customer
must
own
the
property
for
debt
based
financing
owners
of
rental
properties.
H
H
Inclusive
financing
involves
no
new
debt
to
participants,
since
the
customer
does
not
only
upgrade
and
the
obligation
is
tied
to
the
location
and
not
a
person,
there
is
no
better.
The
charge
must
be
significantly
lower
than
the
estimated
savings
the
customers
obligation
is
only
to
pay
a
lower
utility
go
participating.
Customers
in
a
pays
program
are
assured,
upgrades
will
continue
to
function
function
and
if
they
don't
payment,
stops
any
customers.
H
All
of
you
eligible
some
utilities
require
them
to
be
current
with
their
utility
bills
and
for
municipalities
and
industrial
customers
and
many
businesses
not
encumbering
new
debt
and
not
having
to
change
their
energy
budget.
It
eliminates
the
needs
for
board
or
voter
approvals
from
a
credit
and
collection
impact
for
debt
based
financing.
A
credit
check
is
typically
required,
complicates
the
process
and
may
prevent
some
customers
from
participating.
H
Banks
are
primarily
experts
in
the
use
of
capital,
not
energy
efficiency.
Banks
know
how
to
identify
solid
loans
and
how
to
avoid
risky
investments
or
credit
risks.
They
are
not
expert
in
utility
or
efficiency
operations,
not
being
experts
in
utility
or
efficiency
operations
means
banks
may
not
decide
the
best.
Investments
in
efficiency
are
the
best
investments,
while
loan
payments
may
be
made
with
the
utility
or
property
tax
bills.
There's
no
immediate
recourse
for
non-payment
and
collections
are
resolved
through
the
courts
in
most
jurisdictions.
That's
a
very
time-consuming
and
costly
process.
H
Inclusive
financing
is
again
different.
No
credit
checks
are
required.
The
utility
needs
the
savings
to
justify
its
investment,
which
ensures
expertise,
will
be
available
to
ensure
savings
and
since
inclusive
financing
is
available
to
assure
savings,
there
is
this
connection
for
non-payment.
Utilities
have
the
highest
rate
of
collections
better
than
any
bank
in
large
part,
due
to
the
threat
of
disconnection
of
an
essential
service.
H
I
H
It's
a
good
question
and
it
doesn't
have
a
simple
answer,
because
there
are
now
you
know,
seventeen
utilities
that
have
come
up
with
different
solutions.
So
there
are
with
a
debt
based
program.
There's
usually
an
origination
fee
is
what
I
think
you're
talking
about
with
a
fee
or
a
processing
fee
with
pays.
The
utilities
are
already
billing
customers
and
having
a
system
for
that.
That's
been
paid
for
by
all
customers.
Typically,
there
may
be
a
program
fee,
but
that
may
be
for
programs.
Services
are
unique
to
the
operations.
Some
utilities
charge
them.
H
Some
do
not
interest
utilities
that
are
doing
debt
based
or
municipalities
doing
pace
have
the
cost
of
money
is
passed
on,
sometimes
with
markup,
sometimes
without
the
customers
utilities
in
pays
or
inclusive
financing,
let's
the
utility
collect
all
its
costs.
So
if
there's
interest
cost
on
the
money
for
the
utility,
there's
interest
cost
that's
charged
to
participants.
H
They
are
our
utilities
that
have
used
conservation
budgets,
there's
no
real
interest
cost,
so
there's
no
interest
charge,
but
if
there
was
a
large
program,
if
you
were
serving
a
city
or
your
state,
they
would
probably
be
a
cost
of
money
and
would
be
to
keep
the
cost
as
low
as
possible.
Three
there's
like
municipal
bonds
or
something
like
that,
is
that
an
answer
sort.
J
A
H
There
are,
there
are
banks
that
offer
No
Fee
loans.
I
mean
the
reason
a
banker
or
capital
provider
is
in.
It
is
they're
making
a
return
on
their
investment.
There
are
some
bankers
that
have
other
standards
that
influence
their
decisions,
but
it's
all
about
a
return
on
their
investment.
So
I
think
that
that
that
it's
some
something
to
realize
that
through
fees,
they
can
charge
a
lower
interest
rate
if
they
taking
money
upfront
with
the
fee
points
added
to
the
transaction.
But
we
haven't
had
that
happen
with
patient,
just
the
nature
of
the
capital
providers.
H
The
amount
of
money
we've
been
able
to
avoid
origination
fees.
Most
of
the
utilities
that
are
implementing
programs
have
charged
what
we
call
a
program
activity
fee,
because
it's
not
alone,
it's
not
really
interest.
It's
the
the
fee
that
the
utility
needs
to
charge
to
recover
its
interest
on
the
transaction,
but.
H
Yeah
with
pays
the
the
customer
sees.
This
is
what
you're
saving
this
is,
what
you're
paying
it's
supposed
to
be
80%
of
will
25%
less
than
what
you're
paying,
regardless
of
whether
there
are
fees
or
costs.
It's
that's
how
the
transaction
is
evaluated
and
no
transaction
can
qualify
if
it
doesn't
meet
those
criteria
that.
H
We're
on
examples.
Thank
you.
Investor-Owned
utility.
Someone
asked
about
investor-owned
utilities.
The
very
first
utility
to
play
was
an
investor
owned
utility.
It's
now
called
eversource
in
2002.
They
started
their
Smart
Start
program,
which
originally
started
as
a
pays
pilot.
It
is
still
operating
it's
targeting
municipal
customers.
They
have
done
269
primarily,
but
not
completely.
Lighting
projects
and
they've
invested
today.
Ten
point:
eight
million
dollars
they
use
conservation
funds
put
in
a
revolving
fund,
so
they
didn't
have
to
charge
customers
for
interest.
They
did
charge
them
for
the
possibility
of
bad
debt.
H
Debt,
so
the
you
know,
they've
expanded
their
fun
by
the
program
activity
charge
which
could
be
interpreted
as
interest
interest.
The
second
utility
was
in
Hawaii,
the
hiko
companies
Hawaiian
Electric
Company
has
three
subsidiaries.
The
only
upgrade
was
solar
water
installations.
It
was
a
three-year
pilot,
but
the
cause
of
consumer
demand.
They
a
utilities,
ask
the
commissioner
if
they
could
do
it
in
two
years
and
they
were
exhausted
the
funds
in
two
years.
In
the
second
year,
an
interesting
fact
was
identified
by
the
process.
H
Evaluator
74%
of
the
pays
participants
previously
rejected
the
same
offer
that
was
accepted
with
that
they
were
offered
with
the
same
criteria
with
the
exceptional
woman
was
pays
and
one
was
just
a
rebate.
So
something
was
happening.
Customers
were
realizing
something
co-op.
There
are
five
states
where
activities
happened.
If
you
can
see
the
slide,
it's
Arkansas
Arkansas,
Kentucky,
North,
Carolina
and
New
Hampshire
did
a
brief
pilot
I'm
going
to
talk
about
three
of
these
states.
In
Arkansas.
In
less
than
two
years,
the
utility
has
reached
four
percent
of
its
customers.
H
B
H
Minneapolis
soon
the
next
state
I'm
going
to
talk
about
is
Kansas.
Their
program
was
called
how
smart
they
to
have
reached
four
percent
of
their
customers,
and
fifteen
percent
of
them
were
renters.
The
interesting
thing
about
this
I
mentioned
earlier.
There
were
no
rebates
available
in
Kansas,
customers
had
co-pays
24
percent.
Almost
a
quarter
of
the
upgrade
costs
were
necessarily
in
the
form
of
a
upfront
payment
from
the
customer
to
the
contractor,
and
yet
they
had
a
70
percent
acceptance
rate.
H
So
even
when
there
are
low
rates
and
some
upgrades
don't
qualify,
certainly
not
the
lowest
income
customers,
but
a
lot
of
customers
found
a
way
to
get
the
copay
paid.
And
lastly,
I'll
talk
about
upgrade
to
save.
What's
interesting
about
that
is,
is
the
eclip
funding
the
energy
efficiency
and
conservation
loan
program
from
USDA's
rural
utility.
H
That
money
is
a
four-year
note
that
the
utility
can
draw
down
on
with
no
carrying
costs
whatsoever.
The
interest
rate
is
linked
to
Treasury
bills
and
stays
the
same
for
the
four
years,
regardless
of
what
happens
to
the
Treasury
bills
and
the
utility
targeted
a
hundred
and
or
customers
who
had
been
rejected
by
a
loan
program.
Over
75%
of
them
as
of
last
year,
had
accepted
a
paise
offer
and
overall,
the
utility
is
claiming
an
85
percent
acceptance
rate
of
offers.
H
H
They
reach
3%
of
their
single-family
homes.
In
two
years,
38
percent
of
their
multi-family
homes.
They
were
limited
by
state
law
to
using
operating
funds,
as
was
the
city
of
Hayward
with
its
green.
A
word
pays
program
and
green
Hayward
pays
is
the
only
program
reporting
less
than
a
50%
acceptance
rate.
H
H
So
what
do
you
do
if
you're
interested?
Well?
The
first
thing
you
do
is
what
you're
doing,
which
is
you're
getting
a
study
decided
how
viable
this
is
for
your
your
your
situation,
and
but
if
it
decides
this
the
turn
and
that
the
this
is
something
you
want
to
proceed
with
there
at
this
point,
ways
that
all
but
one
of
the
utilities
used
to
implement
their
program.
One
we
can
design
a
custom
program
for
the
utility
two.
H
We
can
let
a
program
operator
or
the
utility
license
the
forms,
agreements
of
standard
plan,
and
we
provide
some
consulting
hours
and
the
standard
plan
is
just
for
residential,
so
some
utilities
may
not
benefit
from
that
and
then
you've,
those
of
you
who
met
with
Tammy
a
guard
for
Mattila
T.
They
are
the
first,
but
not
necessarily
the
last
program
operator
who
will
be
licensed
to
deliver
services
to
a
state
or
utility,
with
no
upfront
charge
for
licensing
fees
or
custom
design
or
anything
they.
H
H
H
The
one
thing
I
can
tell
you
is
you've
had
two
other
speakers
talk
about
our
system
and
they
are
very
knowledgeable.
People
and
I
should
know
because
I
helped
work
with
them
and
I
they're
great
folks.
But
if
you
have
a
detailed
question
about
the
pay's
system,
if
I
don't
know
the
answer,
it
does
not
exist.
So
this
would
be
a
good
time
to
get
those
questions
we'll.
D
Try
to
get
some
good
questions
going
here
and
we
did
bring
you
in
here
as
much,
because
you've
got
experience
and
you're
an
expert
and
and
I
there's,
there's
probably
other
other
programs
and
entities
that
we
could
use
to
do
inclusive
financing
or
we
can
invent
our
own.
But
because
of
your
experience
in
practice,
we
thought
you'd
be
a
valuable
person
to
come
here.
I
do
see
some
questions:
councilmember,
Goodman,
Thank.
K
You
mr.
chair,
thank
you
for
being
here
today.
I
did
have
the
good
fortune
of
hearing
Harlan
last
year
and
really
thought
we
would
move
be
able
to
move
forward
a
lot
faster
than
we
have
so
far.
So
I
guess
I
have
the
big
hundred
thousand
dollar
question,
which
is
what
is
the
problem
here?
I,
don't
understand
what
the
delay
is
with
the
utilities
and
why
they
just
simply
don't
want
to
embrace
this
as
the
future.
No
I
don't
want
to
call
on
the
utilities
and
put
them
on
the
spot.
B
H
The
lights
are
going
to
come
on.
If
you
turn
on
a
heater
and
you
were
in
a
gas,
keep
home
or
business
gas
will
come
through
it's
a
great
operating
system,
and
this
is
a
change
and
change
is
hard.
Change
comes
when
there's
pressure
either
from
a
city.
Council,
state
government,
advocacy
groups
pressing,
and
we
can
tell
you
that,
like
you
know
or
mark
Casey,
can
tell
you
more
casing.
H
Maybe
if
mark
Casey
addresses
you
he's
a
utility
manager
of
Washington
Electric
Cooperative,
he
can
tell
you
that
he's
making
money
on
this
program
he's
running
a
co-op,
so
him
making
money
means
he's
lowering
costs
for
his
numbers.
He
gets
nothing
for
it
and
there
are
examples
of
a
well-designed
pays
program
that
worked
with,
like
CenterPoint
Energy
says
in
its
webpage.
H
Minneapolis
is
one
of
the
fastest
growing
cities
in
the
country.
Well,
that
means
you
need
more
energy,
so
there's
less
impact
from
lost
sales,
especially
if
you,
but
you
could
eliminate
the
the
new
sales
and
it's
not
really
no
impact
to
the
bottom
line.
So
you're
asking
people
to
change
and
what
you
need
to
do
is
build
the
consensus.
Get
the
information
you
need
to
make
sure
it's
the
studies
going
to
do
and
participants
interests
and
it's
not
going
to
impact
rate
and
non-participants
ratepayers
really
badly
and
that
the
utilities
should
win.
H
K
Chair,
it
was
almost
embarrassing
to
hear
that
Arkansas
had
done
this.
We
met
with
Harlan
that
kind
of
said
something
to
me.
I
guess.
The
only
other
thing
I'll
point
out
is
we
implemented
pace.
Property
assessed
clean
energy
improvements
years
ago,
after
Jeremy,
Kalin
and
others
in
the
legislature
allowed
us
to
be
able
to
do
it.
We
were
one
of
the
first
adopters,
along
with
Saint
Paul
through
the
Port
Authority,
and
those
have
been
very
successful
projects
and
moving
commercial
buildings
into
energy
improvements.
K
It's
not
on-bill
financing,
but
it
is
financing
through
the
Port
Authority
in
the
city
that
is
allowed
to
use
energy
savings
to
path
a
capital
cost.
So
we
already
have
a
model
of
this
that
we're
using
it's
interesting.
You
say,
pays
and
pace
they're,
very
sound,
very
similar.
They
are
very
similar
programs.
There
should
be
a
very
easy
step.
The.
K
I,
don't
believe
that
we
should
use
a
debt
based
model
here
to
be
fair.
The
whole
bonus
of
this
is
it's
on
Bill
financing,
but
we
have
been
a
leader
in
trying
to
figure
out
how
to
use
how
to
creatively
use
capital
in
order
to
do
energy
improvements
already
as
a
city
and
I
would
think.
If
we
could
do
it
for
businesses,
we
should
be
jumping
to
do
it
for
residents
both
renters
and
homeowners,
and.
B
You
mr.
chair
I
have
a
question:
I
think
is
more
appropriate
for
our
city
staff.
That's
okay
at
this
time,
and
then
maybe
there
are
more
questions.
I'm,
just
rying
to
understand.
So
a
lot
of
the
examples
that
have
been
given
range,
everything
from
like
a
dishwasher
to
upgrading
a
city
street
light
system
and
when
we
think
about
using
this
tool
in
the
city
of
Minneapolis
or
the
city
of
st.
Paul
or
statewide,
what
kinds
of
can
you
help
us
understand
with
more
detail?
B
How
we'd
particularly
be
targeting
the
households
that
we
talked
about
at
the
beginning
as
the
impetus
for
wanting
to
use
this
kind
of
financing
tool?
And
then
are
we
talking
about
using
this
like
in
an
individual
household
unit
or
at
the
building
scale
or
at
the
city
scale?
And
then
could
you
also
help
us
understand
what
role
the
city
would
be
playing
in
terms
of
our
financial
obligations?
Are
we
participating
as
like
a
guarantor
of
of
the
loans
or
so
that's
a
lot
of
questions?
So
maybe
I
was
pause
there
and
see.
E
Think
that
to
me
asked
there.
Those
are
a
lot
of
questions,
a
lot
of
very
good
questions
and
that's
a
lot
of
those
questions
will
be
answered
during
the
study.
I
think
with
a
Pierrot
best
stakeholder
engagement
process
as
well,
so
that
we
can
take
into
consideration
really
all
the
ways
that
this
could
benefit
and
how
it
can
also
how
a
Pay
system
or
similar
system
it
could
really
be
a
key
component
of
an
ecosystem
of
our
overall
environmental
and
sustainability
efforts.
E
We're
gonna
have
more
information
about
who
does
and
doesn't
have
wall
insulation,
attic
insulation
items
like
that,
so
that
we're
gonna
be
able
to
come
in
and
talk
to
those
same
folks,
we've
assisted
in
with
another
program
and
say
by
the
way,
there's
another
program,
a
financing
tool
that
we
could
help.
We
could
bring
to
bear
and
then
also
I,
think
green
business
cost
share
program
which
is
now
expanding
to
green
housing.
B
Can
I
ask
a
follow-up
question
and
so
just
imagine
we
had
an
apartment
building
where
the
residents
somehow
got
together
and
decided
they
wanted
to
upgrade
the
insulation
or
maybe
the
owner
died.
How
does
that
work?
So
how
does
this
building
use
the
system
in
a
way
that's
different
than
today's
system?
So
is
someone
paying
the
contractor?
Who
is
paying
the
contractor?
Where
does
that
money
come
from
and
then
I
understand
that
it's
being
paid
through
the
utility
fee?
B
H
Can
I
go
back
to
the
question
that
Luke
did
not
answer
first,
so
you
asked
a
really
good
question,
which
is:
what's
the
liability
for
the
city
here,
and
someone
should
answer
that?
No
I
don't
know
what
you'll
do
if
you
do
something
like
pace.
What
is
in
base
but
I'm
not
responsible
for,
like
other
things,
but
in
our
system
you
have
zero
liability,
so
basically
no
one's
promising
anybody
savings
they're
promising
people
that
credible
savings
estimates
are
have
been
done.
These
are
the
estimated
savings.
H
These
are
the
measures,
so
hopefully
they're
proven
measures
where
you
can
trust
the
savings
estimates
and
the
utility
is
not
promising.
The
upgrades
will
stay
and
work
forever.
What
they're
promising
is,
if
he
upgrades
fail,
the
payments
will
be
suspended
and
then,
if
they're
fixed,
the
charges
will
continue
and
if
they're,
not
they
won't.
No
liability
for
the
city.
Is
that
a
straight
answer:
okay,
multifamily
building
landlord
tenants
who
pay
their
bills,
let's
make
it
complicated.
I
was
a
landlord
in
New,
York
City.
So
now
we're
talking
about
another
area
of
my
expertise.
H
H
Someone
does
an
assessment,
someone
competent,
let's
say,
and
they
basically
figure
out.
These
are
the
things
that
are
influenced
in
each
unit
by
cooling
and
heating
and
lighting,
and
it's
responsible
for
paying
the
share
of
80%
of
their
savings
over
a
person
or
in
their
life,
while
their
attendant
in
that
building
to
pay
for
those
upgrades.
They
shouldn't
pay
for
my
benefit
yeah,
so
I'm,
paying
as
the
landlord
I'm
I'm
becoming
a
pays
participant
in
my
own
building
as
the
owner
and
so
on.
H
My
central
meter,
I'm,
paying
for
the
lights
in
the
common
areas
and
the
parking
lights
and
I'm
paying
for
the
electricity.
If
there
was
something
in
a
multi-family
building,
it
is
possible
that
a
washing
machine
will
qualify
depending
on
water
rates
or
whatever
I
may
pay
for
new
washing
machines.
I
make
him
me
out
of
a
contract
with
a
vendor
who's,
doing
it
and
they're,
making
all
the
money
and
I
could
turn
my
washing
machines
into
a
profit.
H
Center
depends
on
how
the
numbers
play
out
or
what
happened
is
someone
either
a
contractor
would
come
in
an
advocacy
group.
You
have
several
groups
in
the
back
of
the
room.
There
would
knock
on
the
door
and
say
we
could
do
this
in
this
building.
They
probably
would
start
with
tenants
and
gets
tenants,
really
excited.
They
would
call
the
building
owner
and
say.
How
would
you
like
your
tenants
to
pay
for
upgrades
in
your
building
and
you
pay
nothing?
H
In
Kansas,
where
15%
of
the
landlord's
paid
for
improvements
of
the
participant
zone,
there
were
2,000
projects.
15%
300
of
them
were
I,
guess,
rental
properties.
It
worked
in
Arkansas
where
a
hundred
percent
of
those
buildings
were
done,
but
basically
an
offer
gets
made
that
supposedly
debt-free
risk-free
and
like.
Why
would
you
not
say
yes.
B
H
So
hopefully,
there's
one
contract,
because
I
said
in
my
presentation
earlier,
you
want
to
have
how
to
pay.
You
have
multiple
contractors
and
I
do
mean
that
so
try
to
be
elegant
in
your
program
design,
the
utility
would
be
making
the
investment.
They
would
write
the
check
either
from
their
funds
or
from
a
third
party
funds
or
from
eclip
if
it
depending
on
the
type
of
utility,
and
they
would
be
getting
all
the
collections
back.
They.
I
H
Do
the
billing
they
would
own
the
measures
on
paper
until
such
time
as
they
were
all
paid
off
if
they
didn't
want
to
add
that
they
could
lease
the
measures,
but
then
they
lose
the
tax
advantages
of
the
investment.
That's
a
business
decision
somebody
a
much
higher
up
in
the
chain
that
I
am,
would
make.
B
And
then
maybe
you
want
elaborate
on
this,
but
and
a
lot
of
these
improvements
at
that
time
that
it
takes
to
see
those
savings.
Is
it
very
long?
So
we
know
from
our
the
city
of
Minneapolis
is
ourselves
paying
for
the
upgrade
of
all
of
our
streetlights
to
more
energy-efficient
lights,
and
that
will
be
a
dramatic
cost
savings
over
time
after
that,
initial
investment
is
made,
and
it
doesn't
take
us
very
long
in
years
to
catch
up
to
the
cost
savings.
So
you're
saying
that
you
did
something
like
utility.
C
H
Long
as
the
money's,
a
solid
investment
people
are,
will
put
the
money
up.
What's
different
about
this
and
what's
different
about
you
guys
doing
it
on
your
own
as
a
city
is
the
investment
is
structured
so
that
the
city
starts
saving
money
from
day
one
or
year
one.
So
you
would
see
the
savings
right
away.
You
would
save
more
obviously
once
the
payment
period
ends,
but
you
would
see
savings
from
day
one.
H
J
H
Does
that
work
great
question
very
helpful,
so
the
tenants
only
obligation
is
to
pay
for
the
charges
at
the
unit
where
the
upgrades
were
made.
Let's
say
the
walls
were
insulated,
big
problem,
let's
say
a
new.
Let's
say
there
was
a
inefficient
system
heating
their
unit
and
the
more
efficient
unit
was
put
in
lights,
were
done,
showerheads
were
done
while
they're
there,
their
job
is
to
use
them
and
get
savings
when
they
leave
their
obligation
ends.
H
That's
it,
they
don't
doesn't
go
with
them.
They're
done.
They
then
go
to
a
new
unit
or
buy
a
house
or
whatever.
If
they're
smart,
they'll
get
pays
done
in
their
new
house
or
their
new
apartment,
if
they
can,
but
the
charge
is
or
stay
with
the
location,
that's
what
it
means
when
it
would
say,
stays
with
the
location.
It
stays
with
that
apartment
until
the
utility
has
collected.
A
hundred
percent
of
its
costs
associated
with
the
program
is
that
clear.
J
H
Let's
say
they
do
that
the
tenant
is
taking
the
unit,
knowing
there
will
be
a
charge
on
their
gas
or
electric
bill
and
that
the
total
bills
savings
on
the
you
know
the
gas
or
electric
bill
or
both
bills
will
be
larger
than
the
charge
by
25
percent
or
more
it's
a
good
deal.
They
may
say
no
I,
don't
want
to
pay
a
charge
to
Centrepointe
I
think
my
cash
utility
it
may
be,
they
may
say:
I
love
it
I'd,
like
paying
less
I.
Don't
know
what'll
happen
everywhere
that
it's
happened.
H
G
H
Promised
to
accept
a
hundred
percent
of
the
liability
for
their
failure
to
disclose.
There
are
mechanisms
in
our
system
where
you
will
know
whether
they
disclose
that
or
not.
You
will
have
written
proof
signed
by
the
owner
and
distributed
to
the
distribution
utility
utility,
and
then
the
customer
can
decide,
do
I
really
mind
paying
a
lower
bill,
in
which
case
they
have
recourse.
They
can
go
to
the
courts
or
to
arbitration.
H
If
you
accept
the
arbitration
as
one
of
the
resources
and
go
after
the
business
owner-
and
they
can
say
well,
I
wouldn't
have
moved
here.
Cost
me
this
much
money
to
move
had
to
change.
My
job
I
lost
this.
It
could
get
very
expensive
for
a
landlord
and
they
probably
will
not
fail
to
disclose
more
than
once.
I
H
One
of
the
things
the
study
will
show
you
and
show
you
specifically.
If
you
manage
to
talk
them
into
doing
Minneapolis,
st.
Paul
as
part
of
this,
but
one
of
the
things
that
will
show
you
is:
what's
the
ideal
payment
duration.
What
we've
seen
is
that
for
the
solar
program
in
Hawaii,
the
only
way
I
could
get
it
to
pencil
and
the
only
way
that
they
were
willing
to
do.
It
was
with
12
year
payment
term.
H
They
looked
at
the
cost,
the
savings,
the
interest
they
were
going
to
charge,
and
they
said
this
will
work,
and
so
that's
what
they
did
in
New
Hampshire.
They
had
a
floating
term
and
they
most
of
the
projects
had
four
or
five
year
paybacks
and
they
used
an
eight-year
term
for
most
of
them.
There
were
a
couple
of
utilities
who
didn't
want
any
of
the
savings
upfront.
Not
only
you
know,
there's
some
voters
who
don't
trust
their
governments.
H
There
are
governments
who
don't
want
to
give
savings
to
their
voters
and
have
an
expectation
that
they
could
take
the
money
and
spend
it
so
they
they
did
a
0%
savings
clearing.
They
wouldn't
have
to
change
their
budgets
and
that
the
project
would
work.
They
were
pretty
confident
in
the
savings
because
it
was
lighting
for
the
most
part
in
New
Hampshire,
which
is
Watson,
wants
out
multiple
times
rate
hours
of
use.
So
eight
years,
New,
Hampshire
I,
think.
H
One
of
either
Kentucky
or
Roanoke
in
North
Carolina
used
a
ten
year
payment
term
Arkansas
is
using
a
12
year
payments
room
again.
They
looked
at
the
sort
of
the
numbers
and
it
made
sense.
The
the
the
rule
was
eighty
percent
that
so
that
they're
saying
that
they're
upgrades
were
going
to
last
I
think
15
years,
and
so
they
could
do
it
swirl
to
your
payment
term
and
and
and
that
they,
the
numbers,
pencils
that
there
would
be
the
smallest
number
of
co-pays.
H
My
guess
is
that
you'll
probably
be
if
you're
looking,
you
probably
start
with
a
10
or
12
year
term,
unless
you
do
some
special
projects
like
sewers.
If
there
are
sewer
plants
that
would
benefit
high
high
use
projects,
maybe
they
tend
to
have
shorter
payback
terms
in
it
for
invest
in
it.
You
decide
you're
serving
industrial
customers
trying
to
keep
them
and
keep
them
operating
in
whatever
those.
H
I
H
Know
this
is
that's
a
great
question,
so
Kansas
one
of
the
longer
running
programs
2008
to
now
10
years.
They
just
had
their
10
year
anniversary.
We
just
reached
4
percent
which
wash
ATAR
reached
in
and
they
have
one
has
50,000
customers
and
the
other
has
6,400
customers.
So
Washita
reached
four
percent,
which
per
capita
is
a
huge
investment
for
them
in
two
years
they
borrowed
the
money
and
they
borrowed
from
their
financing
agent.
Cfc.
It's
a
cooperative
financing
corporation.
H
Midwest
energy
decided
to
take
advantage
of
available
capital
grants
and
special
loans
and
operating
funds,
and
it's
taken
them
longer
to
get
to
the
same
place.
I
would
say
Roanoke's
a
good
example.
They
decided
that
they
wanted
to
have
a
certain
number
of
jobs
in
four
years,
and
so
when
they
do
their
Eclipse
application,
they
got
like
seven
million
dollars
which,
in
the
beginning.
J
H
So
it's
really
a
question:
if
a
utility
really
wants
to
or
their
customers
or
the
politics,
the
Commission
or
the
City
Council
or
whatever
body
has
enough
poll,
you
know
you
set
your
targets
and
if
the
studies
define
a
feasibility
study
indicates
the
market
is
there
since
we're
getting?
You
know,
50
to
80%
to
90%
of
offer
acceptance
rates.
The
only
issue
is
going
to
be
the
capital
that
you
make
available
and
that's
one
of
the
reasons
why
the
people
who
have
been
urging
the
study
should
be
commended.
H
It's
the
right
step,
it's
the
step
that
dr.
Hummel
convinced
Roanoke
electric
to
do
and
Arkenstone
Washita
after
cooperative
to
do,
and
it's
been
done
for
Appalachian
electric
up
in
Tennessee
and
they're,
going
to
be
moving
forward
with
a
program
this
year
and
I.
Think
if
the
study
is
comprehensive
enough,
you
will
find
opportunities
for
any
city.
That
would
be
a
wise
investment
if
you're
interested
in
climate
change
or
lowering
certain
customers
votes
while
they
pay
for
those
for
those
savings.
J
C
You
I
don't
wanna.
Thank
you
so
much
for
coming
and
talking
to
us
about
this
I
like
councilmember
good
and
don't
know
why
we're
not
doing
this
is
something
that
we've
we've
touched
on.
Call
the
reasons
we've
really
focused
on
kind
of
the
environmental
impacts,
but
this
hits
so
many
other
of
our
city
goals
like
affordable
housing
and,
more
importantly,
you
know
letting
us
really
focus
on
what
we
can
do
for
all
many
and
a
pilate's
lead.
You
know
much
much
more
comfortable
much.
C
You
can
have
opportunity
for
an
extraordinary
life,
one
of
the
things
I'm
excited
about.
This
is
not
just
the
the
targeting
targeting
that
we
can
do
for
low
income
families,
but
also
how
this
will
hit.
Those
are
also
the
areas
we
need
to
focus
on.
We
you
heard
a
little
bit
about
one
area
we
need
is
to
make
sure
we
have
more
insulation
and
a
lot
of
the
kind
of
a
little
low-income
multifamily,
and
that
for
us,
that
should
be
something
we
should
be
taking
on
right
away.
I
think
this
helps
us
get
there.
C
The
technology
definitely
is
in
a
spot
where
we
can
see
that
return
on
investment,
that
it
makes
a
lot
of
sense,
that
it
really
is
a
no-brainer,
so
I'm
excited
to
see
what
the
study
says.
I
think
that
that's
something
we
can
really
focus
on
how
we
hit
multiple
goals
through
the
city
through
this.
So.
C
H
Do
with
speakers
told
not
to
do
which
is
sort
of
disagreeing
with
the
key
people
in
the
front
of
the
room,
if
I
could
anything
to
you
having
been
the
one
personally
and
I
know
in
this
room
has
run
both
its
a
low-income
program
for
a
region
in
my
state
and
run
the
state's
program,
which
was
a
privilege
that
I
managed
to
get
strictly
by
accident,
I
called
up
and
said
we
have
a
crisis.
Can
you
stop
what
you're
doing
and
come
here
and
help
us
don't
limit
your
program
to
low-income?
H
It's,
it's
not
a
low-income
program.
It's
a
customer
program!
If
you
want
to
make
it
low
and
Motlow
to
moderate
or
low
to
average.
There
are
so
many
people
who
can't
be
helped,
who
are
just
out
of
limit
with
low
income
eligibility
criteria
that
it's
they
need
as
much
help
I
mean
whoever
decided
this
person's
low
income
and
this
person's
not
never
talk
to
people
and
ever
found
out
about
wealth
versus
income
and
I
can
tell
you
horror
stories
about
things
that
get
me
up
at
night
and
complaining
to
my
spouse.
H
The
other
thing
that
I
would
urge
you
to
consider
is
goals
are
great
things
and
numbers
are
great
things.
But
if
the
numbers
tell
you
you
can't
do
your
goal
talk
to
someone
who
can
think
outside
the
nine
dots
I.
Don't
everybody
knows
the
nine
dots
but
think
broadly,
there
are
ways
to
get
what
you
want,
which
may
not
be
just
straight
pays.
Maybe
you
need
subsidies
or
maybe
you
need
to
harness
other
resources
but
be
creative.
C
D
And
I
think
I
have
a
few
more
questions.
Please
one
thing
I'm
curious
about.
Are
we
hear
from
the
utilities?
Sometimes
this
is
going
to
be
really
difficult.
We
don't
understand
how
it's
going
to
work
with
our
billing
process
and
how
we
handle
this
with
our
software
and
are
there
resources?
Are
there
places
where
people
can
go
and
say
we
solved
this
problem
easily
here,
here's
how
we
did
it
where
they
could
learn
and
they
could
benefit
from
and
maybe
get
some
services.
So
they
get
over
that
leap,
yeah!
H
H
First
of
all,
there
are
17
utilities,
16
of
which
use
their
existing
billing
systems
to
run
programs
in
one
case
that
have
lasted
from
2002
now
and
Midwest
energy
has
2,000
jobs
outstanding,
some
of
which
of
obviously
in
the
books,
have
been
closed
on
using
their
existing
billing
system.
So
there
are
resources
like
talking
to
the
utility
managers
there
and
all
of
those
utilities.
H
E
D
Then
another
thing
I'm
really
interested
in
is
is
seeing
if
we
can
have
a
program
where
a
single
renter
in
a
duplex
or
triplex
or
four
Plex
or
a
larger
building
could
participate
in
a
program
like
this
without
meeting
everybody
else
in
the
building
to
go
along
with
it
or
even
the
building
owner
necessarily
is
there?
Is
there
any
programs
that
offers
anything
like
that?
One.
H
H
Kansas
had
a
lot
of
single-family
homes
that
were
rented,
so
duplexes
should
be
relatively
easy
to
do.
You
could
you
could
literally
work
on
one
half
of
a
home
and
and
treat
it
as
a
condition,
unconditioned
space
and
so
treat
it
slated
like
it?
Like?
That's
the
great
outdoors
where
my
neighbor
lives
and
you
could
you
could
know
what
the
savings
are
and
you
could
you
could
build
that
up
the
more
units
there
are
the
more
complicated
it
comes
unless
we're
talking
about
like
a
replacing
a
heating
system.
H
If
someone
has
electric
baseboard
heat
in
a
unit
and
they
go
to
a
heat
pump,
one
person
can
do
it,
half
the
unit's
can
do
it,
it
wouldn't
make
any
difference,
have
the
information
and
and
you
could
truck
track
it
versus
the
historical
building?
And
then
it's
just
a
question
of
do
the
numbers,
pencil
I
actually.
D
D
H
So
you're
the
chair,
I'm
just
going
to
let
you
know
that
my
time
is
almost
out
or
it's
passed,
but
here
we
go.
This
is
an
area
that
I
have
been
investing
the
last
10
years
of
my
life,
so
community
solar
is
not,
can
I
have
not
figured
out
a
way
that
means
I
haven't
figured
out
a
way
to
pencil
it
as
an
essential
services
charge
because
it's
owned
by
usually
the
utility
and
not
by
the
customer,
and
it
doesn't
it's
not
meant
to
transition
to
success
or
customers.
H
So
I
don't
see
how
I
can
call
it
an
essential
utility
charge.
On
the
other
hand,
rooftop
solar
would
seem
to
lend
itself
to
that,
except
it
does
in
pencil
either
we
have
thought
we
have
a
utility.
That's
interested
and
they're
willing
to
coach
go
match
$10,000
of
the
study
and
we're
seeking
the
other
50
that
we
need
I
think
it
may
be
possible
to
do
rooftop
solar
without
net
metering,
with
battery
backup.
That
would
act
as
a
way
for
a
utility
to
minimize
customers
without
being
being
without
power
for
short
outages.
H
That
would
also
eliminate
demand
a
little
bit.
They
could
draw
the
demand
at
peak
hours
if
that
was
all
they
were
permitted
to
do
and
that
the
customer
would
have
use
of
the
solar
and
we
might
if
we
could
harness
the
tax
credits,
depreciation
and
other
values.
Sometimes
there
are
community
rebates,
state
rebates,
I
think
that
may
be
possible.
If
the
grant
comes
in
it's
going
to
be
big
if
it
works,
I,
don't
know
that
it'll
work
I,
just
like
it's
been
someone
called
me
up
and
said.
A
H
H
D
B
H
Thing
that
most
people
who
are
not
program
implementers
do
not
know
that
this
is
the
gift.
So
someone
here
should
remember
this.
If
you
really
care
about
reaching
low-income,
moderate
income,
renters
and
you're
in
charge
or
have
access
to
being
in
charge
of
where
the
capital
goes,
you
could
simply
say
to
the
contractor
workforce.
You
may
not
do
any
income
homes
before
you
do
50
low-income
homes,
50,
multi-family
homes.
That's
never
been
done
because
the
contractors
don't
want
to
be
burdened
with
where
they
have
to
work.
H
But
if
you
guys
are
creating
this
program
by
your
efforts
and
your
sweat
and
tears
and
that',
so
the
people
behind
me
there's
no
stopping
you.
If
you
insist
on
making
it
happen
and
I
will
tell
you
that
every
place
there
have
been
programs
developed,
including
Hawaii,
that
all
said
this
is
for
hard-to-reach
customers,
there's
not
a
single
stipulation
about
how
the
funds
get
used.
It
is
no
surprise
that
contractors
would
rather
work
for
rich
homes
with
beautiful
views
and
swimming
pools.
H
D
Sure
appreciate
you
being
here:
I
just
want
to
know
that
you
stressed
how
will
usually
when
these
things
happen.
It's
a
big
community
effort
and
I
I
think
this
community
we've
many
people
in
the
community
that
are
concerned
about
it
and
I
want
to.
Let
people
know
that
this
discussion
will
be
going
on
today.
D
Even
there'll
be
more
discussions
in
City
Hall,
but
also
this
evening
at
6:30
tonight,
at
the
can-do
offices
at
37:15,
Chicago
Avenue,
South
we've
got
our
friends
from
can
do
the
community
power,
Sierra,
Club
and
min
mm
350
eco
faith
and
Minnesota
in
faith.
Power
and
Light
are
co-hosting
a
discussion
on
this
very
topic.
I
guess
there's
going
to
be
food
there
as
well
6:30
to
8:00
p.m.
so
hopefully
there'll
be
more
discussion
there,
and
then
people
will
keep
carrying
this
forward
and
bringing
it
forward
thanks.