►
From YouTube: October 28th, 2021 Police Conduct Oversight Commission Policy & Procedure Subcommittee
Description
Additional information at
https://lims.minneapolismn.gov
B
As
we
begin,
I
will
note
for
the
record
that
this
meeting
has
reminded
participation
by
commissioners
and
city
staff
as
authorized
under
minnesota
statutes,
section
13d
.021
due
to
the
declared
local
public
health
emergency.
The
meeting
will
be
reported
and
posted
to
the
city's
website
and
youtube
channel
as
a
means
of
increasing
public
access
and
transparency.
B
C
B
B
Okay,
announcement
from
the
chair
just
want
to
remind
the
group
that
this
is
a
special
long
meeting,
because
we
are
canceling
our
november
meeting,
so
there
will
not
be
a
meeting
in
november
and
now
we
will
move
on
to
the
agenda.
First,
we
will
turn
to
one
item
of
unfinished
business,
which
is
new
nuisance
misdemeanors.
D
B
B
B
This
was
a
gigantic
data
set
and
it
almost
blew
up
limbs
when
we
tried
to
upload
it
to
our
agenda.
So
I
I
I
had
to
engage
a
professional
to
help
me
kind
of
analyze.
This
data,
and
thankfully
professor
manji
reggae
from
st
thomas
university
who's,
the
chair
of
his
department.
There
in
computer
science,
was
able
to
to
take
that
arrest
data
and
to
do
you
know
to
do
his
work
on
it
and
to
analyze
it
and
he
specifically
isolated
nuisance
misdemeanors
and
he
did
prepare
a
presentation.
B
B
Is
he
isolated
certain
news,
nuisance
misdemeanors,
the
one
that
we
hit,
the
ones
that
we
have
been
discussing
over
the
past
several
months
and
he
isolated
the
data
points
of
race
and
address
in
an
attempt
to
sort
of
capture
if
we
could
the
rate
of
homelessness
around
people
who
were
arrested
and
the
race
of
people
who
were
arrested
or
cited
for
these
nuisance
misdemeanors
and
for
each
one
of
the
nuisance
misdemeanors?
B
B
It
was
almost
exclusively
arrest
for
black
individuals
and
all
of
the
other
ones
showed
a
similar
level
of
disparity,
also
skewing
against
the
black
community.
A
B
B
It
is
public
urination
lawyer,
that
kind
of
thing,
and
so
we've
learned
of
the
danger
of
of
having
this
people
enter
the
criminal
justice
system
and
start
getting
exposed
to
the
criminal
justice
system
for
this
kind
of
low-level
conduct,
and
we
in
the
subcommittee
have
been
considering
other
kinds
of
proposals
that
we
could
put
forward
other
kinds
of
work
we
could
do
rather
than
an
arrest
in
the
citation.
B
The
workhouse
is
where
an
individual
would
go
if
they
were
convicted
of
the
misdemeanor
and
jail
is
where
they
go
when
they
are
arrested
and
pending
any
sort
of
trial
or
plea,
and
in
both
cases
it
was,
I
believe,
172
dollars
or
192
dollars
per
night,
and
that
number
reflects
just
the
baseline,
how
much
it
would
cost
for
an
individual
to
be
housed
in
one
of
those
facilities.
It
does
not
include
any
extra
charges
for
services
for
individuals
who
may
have
a
medical
complication
or
require
medication,
or
anything
like
that.
B
One
thing
we've
also
discovered
discussed
on
this
commission
was
the
incidence
of
mental
illness
people
experiencing
mental
illness
or
mental
illness
crisis
when
they're
arrested
for
these
kinds
of
offenses,
the
arrest
at
us
simply
didn't
have
a
data
point
for
us
to
track
so
we're
not.
B
I
don't
have
any
data
to
present
this
evening
as
to
you
know
what
percentage
of
these
arrested
individuals
were
experiencing
mental
illness
or
a
mental
health
crisis
at
the
time
of
arrest
anecdotally,
commissioner
sylvester
and
I
have
both
noted
in
our
professional
experience
that
often
a
mental
health
crisis
is
something
that
leads
to
an
arrest
for
this
kind
of
conduct
like
disorderly
conduct,
or
you
know
something
like
that
and
finally,
on
on
the
homelessness
piece,
the
only
data
point
we
had
to
track
homelessness
was
the
address
of
the
individual
being
arrested
or
cited.
B
However,
we
all
know
that
that
is
an
undercount,
because
an
individual
may
give,
for
example,
a
family
member's
address
where
they
receive
mail,
and
it
looks
like
that
as
a
permanent
address.
However,
the
person
being
arrested
doesn't
actually
live
there
and
is,
in
fact
homeless.
That's
just
one
example,
so
the
rates
of
homelessness,
I
think,
are
important
for
us
to
consider,
and
it's
also
important
to
keep
in
mind
that
these
are
probably
severe
undercounts.
B
So
that's
the
data
we've
gathered
to
this
point
and
now
I'm
very
pleased
to
invite
our
guest
speaker,
mr
sean
webb,
to
the
floor,
he's
a
supervising
attorney
at
the
hennepin
county
public
defender's
office,
and
he
specifically
supervises
the
misdemeanor
and
gross
misdemeanor
team.
So
he
agreed
to
come
and
speak
just
his
professional
experience
and
his
team's
professional
experience
since
his
team
handles
this
specific
time
kind
of
offense.
So
thank
you,
mr
webb,
for
being
here
and
please
begin
any
remarks.
You'd
like
to
share
regarding
nuisance,
misdemeanors.
E
In
looking
at
the
data
that
was
collected
and
analyzed
by
the
professor,
the
racial
disparities
were
stark
and
they
are
pretty
consistent
with
the
racial
disparities
that
the
percentages
that
my
office.
E
This
is
something
that
we
began
tracking
earlier
this
year,
so
that
we
would
have
a
better,
a
better
control
over
over
knowing
how
the
quality
of
the
race
data
that
we're
relying
on
and
while
not
identical
numbers
to
the
the
race
breakdown
that
the
professor's
analysis
had
it's
very
similar,
that
of
the
stark
disproportionate
representation,
particularly
of
our
african-american
community
versus
their
total
population.
E
I
don't
our
system
doesn't
have
the
ability
to
separate
it
out
so
in
looking
at
our
race
data
for
misdemeanor
gross
misdemeanor
offenses,
approximately
51
of
our
clients
identified
as
african-american
and
approximately
27
percent
identified
as
as
wider
caucasian,
so
slightly
different
numbers,
but
still
grossly
disproportionate
to
the
population
numbers
that
we
know
for
hennepin
county
and
for
minneapolis,
looking
at
the
homeless
data
and
looking
at
the
way
that
the
professor
was
analyzing
that
there
or
trying
to
accumulate
that
data.
I
I
think
well,
I
don't
think
anecdotally.
I
can.
E
I
can
say
that
I
think
that
those
the
percentages
that
that
the
professor
has
probably
do
under
count
that
the
homelessness.
I
think
the
example
that
that
you
gave
where
people
will
give
a
family
member's
address,
or
perhaps
the
last
address
that
they
were
living
at.
There
is
a
significant
amount
of
stigma
for
my
clients
who
are
homeless,
there's
a
significant
amount
of
of
shame
that
involved
in
people
involved
for
people
who
are
experiencing
homelessness
and
housing
and
security.
E
And
so
I
think
in
looking
at
the
taking
out
the
traffic
offenses
and
looking
at
the
other
six
categories.
I
think
the
percentages
range
from
about
10
to
16,
and
I
think
that,
if
we're
looking
at
a
little
bit
broader
definition
of
housing
and
security,
we're
probably
anecdotally,
I
think,
I'm
my
clients
are
probably
closer
to
20
to
25
or
in
that
that
housing,
insecurity
or
or
true
homelessness.
Category.
E
You
know
some
of
the
things
that
that
I
looked
at
and
was
thinking
about
for
tonight's
presentation
was
just
the
impact
of
an
arrest
setting
aside
the
charge
setting
aside
the
conviction,
but
just
the
the
fact
of
being
arrested
the
trauma
that
that
causes
the
the
the
inherent
fear
that
a
number
of
my
clients
have
of
any
interaction
with
law
enforcement
and
when
you
layer
into
that
interaction,
homelessness
or
substance,
use
disorders
or
mental
health
conditions,
it
ratchets
up
their
fear
and
it
also
ratchets
up
the
the
threat
that
the
the
entire
situation
has
the
possibility
of
escalating
to
like
taking
out
the
worst
case
scenarios
and
just
looking
at
your
run-of-the-mill,
nothing,
nothing
over-the-top
happens
arrest.
E
The
destabilizing
effect
that
that
has
on
their
life
and
when
you're
talking
about
an
individual
who's
already
in
a
very
unstable
position,
it
doesn't
take
much
to
completely
knock
down
any
support
that
they
have,
and
so
I
think
that
that
looking
at
whether
or
not
especially
these
types
of
offenses,
whether
or
not
they're,
being
best
addressed
with
an
arrest
and
a
ch
and
a
criminal
charge
for
for
clients
who
are
experiencing
any
type
of
mental
health
crisis,
you
know
the
the
stress
and
the
fear
can
oftentimes
be
the
triggering
event
for
that
mental
health
crisis
or
for
their
mental
health
condition
to
to
go
from
perhaps
a
manageable
state
to
to
a
crisis.
E
E
E
You
know,
I
I
think,
once
we
look
beyond
the
arrest
and
the
the
case
going,
the
person
being
charged
with
the
crime
in
the
case
going
forward.
There's
the
the
stress
of
having
these
unresolved
cases
these
unresolved
charges
that
just
weighs
on
people.
E
I've
been
representing
public
defender
clients
for
a
long
time
and
there's
there
is
just
a
noticeable
weight,
the
distress
of
of
coming
to
court,
the
uncertainty
of,
what's
going
to
ultimately
happen,
how
how
much
of
a
sanction
or
how
much
of
a
of
a
punishment
are
they
going
to
be
facing?
E
The
the
stress
of
you
know
having
food
insecurities
having
any
number
of
the
stresses
that
that
my
clients
deal
with
because
of
their
lack
of
resources,
and
it
just
compounds
the
situation
and
compounds
the
toll
that
it
takes
on
them
both
mentally
and
oftentimes.
Physically,
there's
there's
a
physical
price
to
that
to
living
in
that
and
that
stress
environment
for
as
long
as
some
of
my
clients
end
up
living.
E
Looking
at
the
the
offenses
in
particular
that
that
this
commission
identified
like
like
chair
sarah,
said
these
are
not
crimes
that
that
are
putting
any
the
public
safety
in
danger.
These
are
not
assaults.
These
are
not
driving
at
all
intoxicated.
E
These
are
almost
exclusively
crimes
of
poverty,
crimes
of
people
who
have
who
don't
have
the
resources,
people
who
are
homeless.
People
who
are
you
know
struggling
with
mental
health,
untreated
mental
health
conditions.
So,
looking
at
these
and
treating
them,
you
know
with
the
same
response
that
that
we
would
treat
a
allegation
of
domestic
assault.
It
just
does
it's
a
disproportionate
response
to
the
actual
societal
impact.
E
Nobody
wants
to
be
in
a
situation
where
they're
having
to
urinate
on
the
street.
I
don't
care
who
you
are,
and
so
you
know
you
look
at
these
things
that
over
time,
society
has
criminalized
and
you
look
at
them
through
the
lens
of
homelessness,
and
you
really
start
to
appreciate
how
these
are
not.
These
are
not
people
who
are
choosing
to
to
commit
these
offenses
because
they
want
to
you
know,
offend
somebody's
sensibility.
They
want
to
break
the
law.
These
are
people
who
are
committing
these
offenses
because
they
have
no
other
choice.
E
They
don't
have
the
same
options
that
those
of
us
that
have
more
resources
would
have,
and
so
I
mean
you
look
at
pretty
much
everything
other
than
the
driving
offenses
and
the
disorderly
conducts,
and
it's
really
hard
to
argue
that
the
other
five
are
not
are
not
intricately
intertwined
with
the
person's
resources
and
and
are
not
intricately
intertwined
with
with
the
homelessness
and
the
housing
insecurity
that
so
many
are
struggling
with,
and
that
unfortunately,
only
been
made
more
severe.
The
last
18
20
20
months
of
the
pandemic.
E
You
know
the
effectiveness
of
criminalizing
this
behavior
is
really
negligible.
I
mean,
if
we
look
at
at
you,
know,
criminalizing
behavior
to
deter
it
or
to
make
it
make
people
stop
doing
it
this
this
type
of
behavior,
because
so
much
of
it
is
not.
You
know,
crimes
of
of
choice,
it's
crimes
of
desperation,
it's
behavior,
that's
brought
about,
because
the
person
has
no
other
options.
E
E
It
doesn't
when
they're,
when
they're
done
with
the
system,
when
they're
done
with
going
to
court
when
they're
done
with
serving
jail
time,
if
that
happens,
they're
still
in
the
same
position
where
they
don't
have
the
resources
to
not
make
these
choices,
and
it
would
seem
like
and
personally
it.
My
experience
is
that
when
we
address
that
underlying
issue,
when
we
address
the
lack
of
resources,
when
we
address
the
housing
insecurity,
when
we
address
the
mental
illness,
the
behavior
that's
being
criminalized
goes
away
to
a
much
larger
extent
than
it
does.
E
When
we
prosecute
those
offenses,
when
we
try
to
incarcerate
this
behavior
away,
so
I
think,
as
as
people
are
starting
as
people
continue
to
think
about,
how
do
we
address
public
safety?
I
think
part
of
the
conversation
needs
to
continue
to
expand
around
you
know.
E
E
E
Whereas
if
we
were
making
more
resources
available
to
those
people
put
getting
them
more
in
a
more
stable
situation,
then
a
lot
of
these
behaviors
would
go
away,
because
these
are
not
behaviors
that
they're
that
they're
doing
because
they
they
necessarily
want
to.
It
comes
back
to
their
doing
them
because
they
don't
have
any
other
options,
and
you
know
we've
seen
particularly
with
the
city
of
minneapolis
after
people
have
been
charged
with,
these
cases
have
been
brought
into
court
are
being
represented
by
my
office.
E
E
For
these
types
of
nuisance,
offenses
historically
there's
been
a
high
recidivism
rate
because
again
they're
they've,
they
haven't
been
given
the
stability
to
to
not
be
in
the
same
desperate
situations,
but
with
what
we
found
or
what
we've
seen
with
the
introduction
of
actually
helping
them,
providing
them
access
to
resources,
helping
clients
find
stable
housing,
helping
clients,
get
access
to
mental
health
treatment,
get
access
to
chemical
health
treatment
working
on
employment
opportunities.
E
Is
that
this?
What
had
historically
been
a
a
high
amount
of
of
repeat
offenders?
Repeat
charges
has
dropped
drastically
where
the
recidivism
rates
dropped
by
over
70
percent
for
the
people
who
who've
engaged
and
worked
with
the
social
workers.
So
I
think
we
have
shown
through
that
very
small
microcosm
that
if
you
provide
resources
to
that
to
that
population
that
the
behavior
that
society
finds
objectionable
in
a
large
part
goes
away,
because
it's
again
it's
a
it's.
E
B
Thank
you
so
much,
mr
webb.
I'm
going
to
open
up
conversation
to
the
subcommittee,
which
includes
me
and
commissioner
sylvester,
commission
sylvester
did
you
have
any
remarks
or
questions
for
the
speaker.
C
First
of
all,
thank
you
so
much
for
coming
tonight
and
and
for
sticking
around,
I
imagine,
maybe
a
little
later
to
hang
out
with
us
tonight.
I
we
talk
about
the
african-american
population,
the
city
of
minneapolis,
being
between
15
and
17.
C
C
I
if,
if
we're
talking
about
51
of
the
folks
that
you're
dealing
with
are
african-american
in
your
misdemeanor
system
and
the
percentage
is
half
that
tells
me
that
the
problem
in
minneapolis
is
probably
even
more
stark,
you
know
what
I
mean
yeah.
Second
of
all,
I'm
really
moved
by
what
you
said
about
the
idea
of
disrupting
somebody's
life
and
how
disruptive
it
is.
C
C
I've
learned
so
much
about
this
idea
of
misdemeanors
and
what
that
disruption
looks
like
in
life.
I've
grown
very
thankful
of
those
officers
who
choose
to
just
get
me
involved
right
versus
taking
somebody
to
jail,
because
a
couple
hours
in
the
er
or
something
like
that
you
know
is,
is
one
thing,
but
it's
not
hopefully
not.
C
I
just
need
this
little
thing
of
versailles
here
and
she
goes
oh
you're
not
from
the
jail,
and
it
was
like
four
shopping
bags,
and
it
was
for,
like
the
next
five
days,
like
just
a
tremendous
amount
of
medications.
You
know
mixed
together,
whatever
it
just
blew
my
mind,
how
many
medications
are
really
running
through
a
place
like
that
at
any
given
time?
C
The
last
thing
I
think
I
just
really
want
to
recognize
you
for
is
that
idea
of
weight
of
these
pending
cases
right,
like
I,
don't
think
as
a
society
we
give
enough,
we
give
enough
thought
necessarily
as
a
society
to
that
idea
of
what
that
stress
does
to
somebody
physically
and
mentally,
especially
if
somebody
has
let's
say
chronic
diabetes,
chronic
hypertension,
any
other.
You
know
kind
of
manageable
condition
in
any
other,
setting
right
that
psychological
weight
and
how
that
affects.
Somebody's
physical
and
mental
health
is
just
a
really
powerful
statement.
B
B
They
are
surprised
that
a
person
can
be
arrested
and
taken
to
jail
for
this
kind
of
offense.
So
if
I
could
just
verify
with
you
that
when
they're
arrested,
they
are
in
jail
and
you
visit
your
clients
in
jail,
I
mean
this
is.
E
So
all
of
the
offenses
that
are
looked
at
that
we've
been
talking
about
tonight
are
misdemeanor
offenses,
and
so
they
do
carry
a
possible
penalty
of
up
to
90
days
in
jail,
and
if
somebody
is
charged
with
one
of
those
offenses,
the
officer
does
have
some
discretion
about.
E
If
they're
arrested
on
the
weekend,
they
might
be
held
for
several
nights
before
they
have
the
opportunity
to
meet
with
one
of
the
attorneys
from
my
office
and
appear
before
a
judge
where,
thankfully,
most
often
there
are,
they
are
released,
and
certainly
on
these
types
of
offenses,
they
are
almost
now
at
this
point
almost
always
released,
but
even
if
we're
talking
about
24
hours
in
jail
for
a
crime,
a
crime-
that's
really
you
know,
behavior
of
desperation
and
homelessness
and
the
trauma
that
that
24
hours
has
now
inflicted
on
that
person.
E
I
would
just
the
the
wrecking
ball
that
that
that
that
is
to
any
stability
that
they
had
had
been
able
to
build
is
just
now
almost
almost
always
flattened,
and
so,
while
it's
not
every
time
that
they're
going
to
be
arrested
and
brought
to
jail
for
these
offenses,
it
seems
like
any
time
that
they
that
somebody
is
arrested
and
experienced.
That
is
experiences
that
type
of
trauma.
When
we're
talking
about
behavior,
that
really
is
not
putting
public
safety
at
risk.
E
It
seems
unnecessary
and
seeing
so
many
clients
that
have
been
so
destabilized
by
that
over
and
over
again
it
just
it.
It
seems
that
that
more
than
than
anything,
is
actually
perpetuating
the
behavior,
because
it
perpetuates
the
instability
it
perpetuates
the
trauma.
Instead
of
doing
what
it's
you
know
designed
to
do,
which
is
eliminate.
B
Okay,
I
will
now
open
the
discussion
for
public
comment.
If
you
could,
please
press
star
6
to
mute
yourself,
star
6,
to
unmute
yourself.
B
Okay,
yes,.
C
I'll
say
one
more
thing
I
this
has
me
thinking
about
driver's
licenses
and
how
important
that
sort
of
id
card
is,
and
I
think
in
in
order
to
rent
an
apartment,
I
would
have
to
have
an
id
in
order
to
get
an
id.
If
I
lose
that,
I
would
have
to
go
to
the
social
security
office
and
get
a
copy
or
a
new
social
security
card
right,
it
seems
pretty
benign.
It
sounds
like
something
I
could
take,
probably
in
an
afternoon
right,
pre-covered,
but
with
covid.
I
have
to
go
to
the
library.
C
If
I
was
unsheltered
or
experiencing
homelessness,
I
would
have
to
go
to
the
library.
I
would
have
to
use
that
computer
to
sign
up
for
a
time
at
the
social
security
office.
I
would
have
to
go
to
that
office.
Wait
in
line
get
that
social
security
card
and
then
set
up
a
time
with
a
dmv
and
have
to
walk
to
that
dmv
on
my
appointment
date.
C
In
order
to
get
that
license
and
then
and
if
you
disrupted
that
schedule
by
going
to
jail,
you
wouldn't
be
able
to
access
any
of
that
necessarily
any
of
that
service,
and
that's
such
a
delicate
balance,
even
for
me
with
a
working
vehicle
and
working
internet
in
my
pocket.
That
has
to
be
such
a
delicate
balance
for
somebody
which
is
so
deeply
disruptive.
E
Anyway,
and
to
that
point
almost
always
the
first
thing
that
when
my
clients
are
working
with
one
of
the
social
workers,
the
first
thing
that
the
social
worker
works
on
with
them
is
getting
that
id,
because
that
is
such
an
integral
part
of
you
know
transacting
in
our
society
and
something
that
so
many
of
us
take
for
granted.
It's
something
that
so
many
of
us
don't
have
to
really
think
about.
C
I
can't
get
a
cell
phone
without
an
id,
you
know
other
than
maybe
like
a
track
phone
like.
I
can't
get
a
cell
phone
without
an
id.
I
can't
get
a
bank
account
for
any
sort
of
public
service
to
be
direct
deposited
into,
and
so
now
I'm
paying
15
to
the
unbank
right
to
cash.
My
check,
which
is
easily
losable
versus
having
it
direct
deposited
in
a
bank
you're,
absolutely
right
that
that
that
stuff
is
so
critical.
B
And
mr
webb,
you
brought
up
a
good
point.
I
got
numbers
for
how
much
it
cost
to
put
a
person
in
jail,
but
I
actually
didn't
account
for
the
co,
like
the
cost
of
a
court.
Proceeding,
you
know
to
fees
for
the
city
attorney's
office,
the
judge,
the
deputies
in
the
courtroom.
B
All
of
that
is
very
expensive
as
well,
even
if
they
end
up
pleading
guilty
and
not
having
a
jury
trial
and
if
they
have
a
jury
trial.
You
know
that
number's
increased,
so
there
are
a
lot
of
costs
associated
with
this,
and
one
thing
we're
considering
as
a
commission
is:
if
there
isn't,
if
there
isn't
a
benefit
you
know
like
if
the
behavior
is
ongoing.
B
If
it
doesn't
intervene
in
that
behavior,
if
it
doesn't
make
our
society
any
better,
then
you
know
this
is
quite
a
high
cost
to
pay
as
taxpayers,
to
say
nothing
of
the
the
toll
it
takes
on
the
individuals.
So
thank
you,
okay,
anything
else,
commissioner
sylvester.
Otherwise
I
will
let
our
speaker
get
back
to
his
his
life.
Thank
you
so
much,
mr
webb.
This
is
really
valuable
input
and
we
really
appreciate
your
time.
B
Okay,
next
item
unfinished
business
arbitration.
The
next
order
of
business
on
our
agenda
is
discussion
of
arbitration
decisions,
which
is
continued
from
our
september
meeting.
I
will
now
open
the
floor
to
discussion
with
my
fellow
commissioner
I'll
call
on
myself
and,
I
will
say,
been
working
with
the
city
attorney's
office.
Mr
fussy
has
been
very
helpful.
Trying
to
get
these
opinions
to
me
so
far.
We
only
requested
the
10
decisions
where
the
city
lost
an
arbitration,
because
if
they
won
they
won,
they
did
a
good
job.
B
So
far,
I've
received
seven
out
of
ten,
so
I
don't
have
a
complete
data
set,
but
we've
put
this
off
so
long.
I
wanted
to
at
least
discuss
it
with
the
group
or
with
the
subcommittee
before
we
bring
it
up
to
the
full
commission,
and
I
did
provide
as
much
data
as
I
have
in
the
decisions
that
I
have,
and
you
know,
opening
up
discussion
with
you,
commissioner
sylvester.
What
I
observed
is
that,
first
of
all,
in
16
years,
there's
been
26
arbitrations
and
the
cities
won
most
of
them.
B
B
The
city
still
partially
won
or
had
a
discipline
for
all,
except
one
opinion
or
one
arbitration
in
16
years,
and
I
actually
just
a
community
member
emailed
me
the
arbitration
decision
for
that,
one
which
I
haven't
shared,
because
it's
not
public
data,
but
just
sharing
that
the
date
for
that
one
is
2010.,
so
we
actually
haven't
lost.
B
You
know
just
outright
loss
with
no
discipline,
nothing
on
arbitrations
in
11
years.
Just
sharing
with
you
my
experience
as
an
attorney
in
court.
That's
a
pretty
good
win
worker.
I
mean
I
mean
if
arbitration
like
fell
off
the
face
of
the
planet
and
all
of
a
sudden
everything
was
in
district
court.
I
mean
that's
a
pretty
stunning
win.
D
B
Another
observation
from
reading
the
opinions
which
were
pretty
heavily
redacted,
but
I
I
was
able
to
kind
of
glean
what
happened
most
of
the
time
we
lost,
because
a
piece
of
the
investigation
was
missing.
B
In
one
instance,
the
officer
was
actually
being
bullied
by
his
supervisor
and
the
administration
and
basically
comes
down
to
hr
that
they
didn't
follow
the
rules
of
progressive
discipline.
They
didn't
do
a
thorough
investigation.
You
know
that
kind
of
thing.
So
those
were
some
of
my
observations.
C
I
that
that
was
my
observation,
that
how
many
of
these
cases
did
involve
like
what
I
what
I
understand
to
be
kind
of
past
practice
where,
in
the
past
we
discipline
officers
this
way,
and
now
this
guy,
you
know,
got
this
discipline
or
something
like
that
that
that's
what
jumped
out
at
me.
B
D
Hello,
this
is
dave
becking.
Yes,
I'm
very
glad.
You're
discussing
this,
I'm
still
upset
that
you
received
such
a
you
know,
incomplete
record
of
these
arbitrations
and
that
the
ones
you
have
are
redacted
to
the
point
of
being
almost
unintelligible.
In
some
cases,
there's
a
lot
more
information
there.
That
is
actually
quite
helpful
to
understanding
what
happens
in
the
arbitration.
D
Based
on
that,
I
I
finally
and
I
apologize
for
it
being
so
late
finally
sent
chair
sarah
14
arbitrations
that
I
could
find
in
the
last
20
years
with
the
minneapolis
police
department,
and
so
those
have
no
redactions
whatsoever
and
are
public
documents
with
possibly
one
exception.
D
That,
I
think,
is
the
one
you
mentioned
already
and
that
is
going
to
make
it
a
lot
easier
to
take
a
look
at
this
plus
give
you
twice
as
many
cases
and
I'll
be
sending
some
more
because
I
still
I'm
finding
some
more
on
the
bureau
of
mediation
website.
D
In
any
case,
yes,
this
is
interesting.
I
think
it's
very
important
in
communities
united
against
police
brutality.
I've
worked
on
this,
particularly,
but
we've
discussed
this
and
even
put
a
flyer
which
is
on
the
front
page
of
our
website
regarding
our
feelings
about
arbitration
and
the
use
of
arbitration
as
an
excuse
of
why
we
can't
discipline
is
not
valid
and
those
who
are
recommending
that
we
somehow
modify
the
grievance
or
arbitration
proceeding,
particularly
to
like
get
rid
of
arbitration.
D
I
think
have
got
it
wrong.
D
Instead,
the
department
has
got
to
get
its
act
together
to
consistently
win,
because,
though
it
only
lost
outright
in
one
of
these
26
they're
saying
some
of
the
reductions
in
discipline
were
very
substantial.
D
You
know
from
a
termination
to
30
hours
because
of
the
redactions
and
the
ones
you're
seeing
you
aren't
able
to
see
what
the
original
recommendation
was.
So
it's
sometimes
it's
pretty
easy
to
read
between
the
lines
and
figure
that
out
or
you
might
even
know
something
about
the
case.
D
Those
those
are
very
substantial
and
as
far
as
the
police
department
and
its
credibility
is
concerned,
both
to
the
public
and
with
its
own
officers,
not
being
able
to
make
a
firing
stick
and
just
wind
up
with
30
hours.
Suspension
is
a
is
a
very
serious
loss
and
there's
been
cases
where
officers
have
had
that
kind
of
reduction
in
discipline,
and
it's
led
to
the
you
know
further
incidents
in
one
or
two
cases,
with
a
lead
determination
later
on,
so
something
that
should
have
happened
earlier.
D
So
those
cases
are
are
very
important
and
yeah.
I'm
I'm
going
to
try.
As
I
said
the
commissioner
sarah
in
my
email,
I'm
going
to
try
to
set
up
a
spreadsheet,
to
kind
of
look
at
these
better
and
see
see
what
some
of
the
patterns
are
and
get
this
all
documented
in
one
place
and
in
a
in
a
way,
that's
much
easier
to
understand,
and
you
know
a
few
heavily
redacted
arbitrations
coming
in
every
month.
So
I'm
sorry!
D
I
haven't
done
that
earlier
and
you
have
another
november
meeting,
so
I
will
have,
I
hope,
a
lot
for
you
in
december
so
that
you
can
evaluate
this
because
it
is
a
very,
very
important
issue.
It's
an
issue
that
comes
up
in
public
very
frequently,
and
I
think
a
better
understanding
will
will
help
tremendously
in
making
the
kind
of
recommendations
that
are
needed
and
the
kind
of
recommendations
that
cuapb
has
made
to
the
police
chief
since
we
first
met
with
him
over
four
years
ago.
Thank
you.
B
Thank
you,
mr
bicking,
and
that
that
reminds
me
my
actual
announcement,
which
I
forgot
to
give
was
that
so
the
city
provided
me
these
heavily
rejected
opinions.
B
The
website
is
m,
n
dot,
g,
o
v,
backslash
b
m
s
backslash,
and
you
can
look
up
arbitration
decisions.
I
spoke
to
mr
fussy
about
that
and
basically
the
city
attorney's
office
takes
a
more
conservative
view
of
data
practices
than
I
don't
know
than
the
bureau
of
mediation
services.
So
that's
why
it's
so
heavily
rejected,
that's
kind
of
its
own
separate
issue,
but
since
I'm
sitting
on
this
commission,
I
didn't
feel
comfortable.
B
Mr
fussy
didn't
recommend
disclosing
this
unredacted
since
that's
the
city's
position,
but
it's
acceptable
for
me
to
make
this
announcement
and
say
that
there
are
these
other
unredacted
opinions.
I
think
it'd
be
valuable
to
to
see
the
unredacted
versions.
I
think
that
something
is
lost
with
the
rejections.
B
Is
there
any
other
public
comments?
Yes,
yes,
thank
you,
mr
baking.
B
I
think
this
probably
merits
a
research
and
study
within
our
audit
subcommittee,
and
I
I
think
that
research
and
study
could
happen
much
quicker
than
some
of
the
other
research
and
studies,
since
it
is
a
data
set
of
10
cases.
You.
A
B
And
perhaps
if
it
was
just
the
audit
subcommittee,
perhaps
there
is
a
way
that
they
could
review
that
data,
including
the
one
instance
where
there
was
no
discipline,
even
though
it's
private
data,
if
there's
a
way
they
could
review
it,
so
they
could
just
have
the
full
knowledge
of
what
happened
and
make
any
kind
of
recommendations
of
how
to
improve
the
arbitration
process.
C
I
agree
I
think
we've
had
this.
I
think
we've
had
this
as
a
subcommittee
for
long
enough.
I
think
we've
fleshed
it
out
long
enough.
I
think
we've
done
some
pretty
good
work.
I
think
you've
done
some
pretty
good
work
gathering
all
this
all
together
in
one
place,
yeah.
B
Okay,
then
I
make
I
will,
as
chair,
put
this
on
the
agenda
for
the
full
commission
to
consider,
and
thanks
thanks
mr
bicking
in
particular,
for
engaging
and
bringing
this
to
our
attention
in
the
first
place
in
your
presentation
that
you
gave
a
few
months
ago.
We
appreciate
that
engagement.
Thank
you.
B
Our
our
next
item
of
discussion
is
the
issue
of
discipline.
I
will
now
open
the
floor
to
discussion
with
my
fellow
commissioner.
I
did
provide
some
supporting
documents
for
this
issue
of
discipline.
B
This
is
something
that
was
actually
discussed
with
the
full
commission
back
in
2020
before
you,
you
were
appointed
commissioner
sylvester
and
it's
it's
adjacent,
but
not
the
same
as
the
issue
of
coaching
and
that
was
sort
of
how
the
context
came
to
us.
In
2020,
the
mpd
manual
said
that
discipline
was
mandatory.
B
All
all
sustained
incidents
of
misconduct
shall
result
in
this
discipline.
That
word
sustained
is
important
because
it
meant
that
there
was
an
investigation
and
there
was
misconduct
found.
So
we
aren't
talking
about
you.
B
That
were
investigated
confirmed
and
in
2020
it
was
also
required
to
do
discipline
according
to
the
civil
service
rules,
and
I
did
include
the
civil
service
rule
that
applies,
which
is
rule
11,
which
is
discipline
which
ranges
from
a
warning
up
to
termination
and
just
a
point
of
clarification.
I
was
talking
to
a
community
member
about
this
under
the
civil
service
rules
that
warning
a
formal
warning
where
you,
you
know
sit
down,
and
you
have
a
warning
in
your
file
that
is
discipline
under
these
rules.
B
B
A
B
So
I
wanted
to
bring
up
this
policy
change
and
I
wanted
to
bring
it
up
right
after
arbitration,
because
my
observation
from
reading
these
arbitration
decisions
is
that
we
tended
to
lose
in
arbitration
or
do
poorly
when
there
was
too
much
back
and
forth.
There
was
too
much
discrepancy
and
discipline.
B
I
think
someone
might
be
unmuted
who
should
perhaps
be
muted.
So
if
folks
could
check
anything
anyhow,
since
the
problem
in
our
the
greatest
problem
in
arbitration
seems
to
be
discrepancies
in
discipline,
it
seems
to
me
a
bad
policy
idea
to
make
discipline
optional.
B
It
seems
like
that
opens
the
door
to
problems
with
arbitration
or
even
just
you
know,
upholding
discipline
in
the
future,
because
it
it
seems
like
it
would
open
the
door
for
the
chief
issuing
discipline
in
this
case,
but
not
this
case,
and
it
would
open
up
the
you
know
the
argument
for
the
union
or
whomever
to
say.
Well,
you
disciplined
me,
but
you
didn't
discipline
this
cop,
that's
not
fair,
it's
disparate
impact
and
then
you
know
we're
kind
of
back
to
square
one.
B
So
I
did
want
to
have
this
discussion.
You
know
right
next
to
arbitration.
Those
are
some
of
my
observations.
Oh
and
my
final
observation.
I
wanted
to
share
derek
shelvin
as
one
example,
he
had
a
series
of
very
serious
misconduct,
including
egregious
excessive
force
where
he
was
not
disciplined,
and
this
all
came
out
in
his
criminal
trial.
B
So
I
think
in
real
time
we
are
experiencing
as
a
city
the
absolute
worst
case
scenario
the
absolute
nightmare
scenario
of
what
happens
when
discipline
is
not
used
to
intervene
and
stop
misconduct,
and
that's
the
example
I
wanted
to
give.
So
excuse
me
for
being
long-winded.
Commissioner
sylvester
did
you
have
anything
to
share
with
the
commission.
C
Maybe
like
reading
these
cases,
it
feels
like
it
starts
in
the
precinct
level
right
like
with
the
with
sergeants
and
the
precinct
inspector
and
stuff
like
that
before
it
ever,
you
know
really
graduates
to
the
level
of,
like
maybe
internal
affairs
of
the
chief
or
something
like
that
right
and
and
it
it's
one
thing
to
give
the
chief
this
type
of
this
type
of
power,
but
I
I
worry
that
maybe
we're
giving
these
precinct
we're
giving
precinct
level
supervisors
just
a
lot
of
leeway
to
discipline,
folks
that
we
they
work
with
day
in
and
day
out
right.
C
If
we
only
have
500
some
officers
right
now
and
we
should
be
looking
at
over
800
officers
right
now
right,
you
need
everybody
to
show
up
to
work,
you
need
everybody
to
work
extra,
hard
and
yeah.
You
know
frank
over
here
he's
been
having
a
hard
time.
The
last
18
months
we're
just
going
to
cut
him
a
little
bit
of
a
break
here.
You
know
he's
been
under
a
lot
of
stress
whatever
I
it
just
it.
A
lot
of
this
just
screams
to
me
like
where,
like
are
we
looking
at?
C
D
B
That's
a
really
good
point
and
in
fact,
in
one
of
the
arbitration
decisions
was
older,
but
it
did
say
that
the
internal
affairs
officer
it
wasn't
the
chief
it
was,
you
know,
like
a
precinct
level,
internal
affairs
investigation
and
that
person
had
been
a
cop
for
many
years
but
didn't
receive
any
internal
affairs
training.
B
It
was
old
so
that
could
have
changed
so
that
brought
up
a
question
to
me
is
what
kind
of
training
kind
of
training
is
there
for
like
internal
affairs
type
investigations,
and
is
it
only
for
like
the
chief
and
the
commander,
or
does
it
trickle
down
to
the
precincts?
C
Yeah
and
reading
through
these
there's
a
lot
of
really
egregious
a
lot
of
really
egregious
behavior
in
some
of
these.
Some
of
these
cases,
like
pretty
egregious
behavior
but
there's
also,
and
one
that
comes
to
mind,
is
the
gentleman
that
they
found
at
the
gay
90s
and
there
was
it
was
it
was.
It
was
fascinating.
I
think
maybe
it
was
one
of
the
first
cases
that
that
was
on
the
list.
C
They
saw
this
guy
at
the
gay
90s.
He
was
yelling
and
screaming.
He
had
blood
on
his
face
right
and
they
did
some
honestly.
They
did
some.
In
my
opinion,
some
pretty
good
police
work.
Hey
man,
here's
your
sunglasses!
Here's
your
hat!
Here's
your
coat
man
get
out
of
here.
Walk
that
way.
So
you're
not
gonna,
be
a
problem
with
anybody.
C
Go
have
a
good
night.
Go,
you
know,
go,
get
a
cab,
go
home,
whatever
go
sleep
it
off
right
and
if
that
happens,
if
you
go
somewhere
and
sleeps
it
off
like
none
of
this
takes
place,
he
doesn't
get
punched
in
the
face.
Like
none
of
this
happens
right,
so
you've
got
really
good
police
work,
and
then
you
got
a
guy.
That's
you
know
ends
up
like
puts
himself
in
a
situation.
Right
continues
to
be
intoxicated
and
kicks
a
couple
of
cops.
You
know
and
get
some
haymakers
in
the
face.
Like
that's.
C
I
I
clearly
see
where
maybe
there's
a
violation
of
policy
here
with
these
guys
right,
but
I
also
recognize
that,
like
in
this
case,
this
is
not
clear-cut,
where
it's
like
cop
got
out
of
his
car
smoked
a
guy
in
the
face
right.
No,
there
was
a
long.
You
know
what
I
mean
like.
There
was
good
police
work
here.
There
was
some
questionable
police
work
here
and
then
there
was
some
really
violent
police
work
here.
It
just
brings
to
mind
to
me
how
how
how
dynamic
these
cases
are.
You
know
in
some
ways.
B
Certainly
very
dynamic-
and
I
I
think
you
know
opinion
opinion
opinion,
but
you
know,
in
my
opinion,
I
think
that's
why
some
form
of
grievance
arbitration
whatever.
I
think
that
is
really
important,
because
you
know
I
think
mr
bicking
said
it.
That's
an
important
right
for
for
the
police
officers
who
are
either
falsely
accused
totally
falsely
accused
or
there's.
You
know
mitigating
circumstances.
B
So
I
guess
my
inclination
would
not
be
to
recommend
getting
rid
of
arbitration
altogether
and
it's
state
law.
Anyhow,
I
mean
that's
just
it's
just
out
of
our
hands.
B
B
B
C
I
agree,
and
I
think
the
sheriff's
department
is
doing
some
really
interesting
work
on
this.
From
what
I've
read
about.
You
know:
mental
health
support
with
officers
and
early
intervention
and
stuff
like
that,
so
those
you
know
those
things
exist
and
that
might
be.
That
might
be
a
really
interesting
place.
You
know
for
the
commission
to
go
next
year
to
look
at
best
practices
when
it
comes
to
early
intervention.
C
You
know
the
polar
foundation
just
gave
the
city
a
bunch
of
money
to
kind
of
work
on
this
idea
of
intervention,
but
you
know
what
sort
of
early
intervention
programs
are
working
and
where
are
they
working?
That
sort
of
thing.
C
Which
is
why-
and
I,
which
is
why
to
me-
coaching
is
probably
really
could
probably
be
really
dangerous
in
this
right,
because
it
feels
from
a
managerial
perspective.
It
probably
feels
like
you
did
something
right
like
you
feel
you
feel
like
you
took
action,
but
you
didn't
hurt
somebody's
career.
You
didn't
hurt
their
pension.
You
know
possibility,
like
you
didn't.
You
know
what
I
mean
like
you
did
something,
but
you
nothing
really
came
of
it
and
you
didn't.
You
know
this
guy
isn't
going
to
stop
showing
up
to
work.
C
You
know
what
I
mean
like
I
I
can
see
from
a
managerial
standpoint,
especially
in
their
staffing
crisis.
Right
now
how
coaching
could
be
really
attractive.
You
know,
like
hey,
I
talked
to
steve
out
in
the
garage
and
he's
gonna
knock
it
off
from
that
one.
B
B
And
when
we,
you
may
remember
this,
commissioner
sylvester,
I
think
it
was
may
and
we
had
city
leaders
come
to
speak
to
us
about
coaching
and
when
they
described
coaching
in
the
process.
It
was
exactly
word
for
word.
B
What
a
warning
is
under
the
civil
service
rules,
and
so
I
think,
what's
happening
is
that,
instead
of
issuing
the
warning,
which
would
be
a
record,
you
know,
like
you,
don't
lose
your
job,
you
don't
get
suspended,
but
it's
it's
a
record
they're
doing
the
coaching
and
so
there's
no
record
and
that
just
keeps
happening
over
and
over
again
and
it's
snowballing.
It's
nothing
happening
with
that.
A
C
Is-
and
it
makes
me
it
makes
me
think
about
it,
just
it
makes
me
think
about.
Maybe
this
is
me
just
being
paranoid,
but
it
makes
me
think
about
lawsuits,
and
it
makes
me
think
about
like
what
happens
if
we
are
so
hyper
focused
on
preventing
lawsuits
that
we
are
actively
not
creating
paper
trails
for
this
type
of
stuff.
B
B
Your
exposure
is,
is
that
much
greater
because
then,
when
the
lawsuit
does
happen
and
they
go
through
discovery,
and
there
were
these
complaints-
and
there
were
these-
you
know
all
this
stuff
that
happened,
then
the
city's
actually
on
the
hook
for
a
much
much
higher
dollar
amount
that
they
knew.
The
officer
had
a
problem.
B
They
had
an
opportunity
to
correct
it
and
they
didn't
correct
it.
It
actually
is
worse
for
us
in
litigation,
so
in
order
to
play
the
long
game
and
really
and
really
think
about
what
position
we
want
to
be
in
litigation,
I
think
the
answer
is
going
back
to
mandatory
discipline
under
the
civil
service
rules
and
and
having
a
paper
trail,
and
I
don't
want
to
even
think
of
this
in
terms
of
litigation,
I
mean
that
sounds
sort
of
that
sounds
sort
of
disrespectful
to
the
people
who
are
being
harmed
by
this.
B
I
think
we
also
need
to
have
some
truth
and
reconciliation
within
within
the
city
and
say
this
is
a
problem,
and
how
are
we
going
to
address
the
problem
and
right
now
we
aren't
taking
that
responsibility
and
we
aren't
addressing
it
we're
you
know
we're
still
we're.
I'm
still
getting
answers
from
the
city
attorney
that
we
can't
talk
about
coaching
because
there's
litigation.
You
know.
D
D
B
C
B
Is
there
any
public
comment,
we've
been
you
and
I
just
sort
of
have
this
little
dialogue
going
over
deep.
Would
anyone
from
the
public
wish
to
address
either
of
us
or
both
of
us?
Please
press
star
six
to
unmute
yourself.
If
so,.
D
This
is
dave
again.
Yes,
this
discussion
of
discipline
is
very
important.
I'm
glad
you're
glad
you're
having
that
and
I'm
very
glad
you
found
and
pointed
out
the
change
in
the
policy
manual.
D
This
seems
to
have
been
prompted
by
the
policy
manual
at
one
time
was
written
in
the
sense
that
coaching
was
disciplined,
and
thus
you
know
such
a
probation
was
appropriate
that
you
know
all
misconduct
will
result
in
discipline
or
words
to
that
effect,
and
I
suspect,
though
I
guess
we
can't
know
that
the
change
was
made
in
order
to
reinforce
the
position
that
coaching
is
not
disciplined
now
that
people
want
to
see
the
results
of
coaching
and
they
want
to
keep
them
hidden
because
it
isn't
disciplined
so
very
important.
D
I
really
appreciate
you
bringing
that
up
something
else
to
say,
but
at
this
point
that's
all
I
can
think
of
right
now.
Thank
you.
B
Anyone
else
please,
press
star
six
to
one
mute
yourself.
B
Okay,
I'm
not
hearing
any
comment
and
commissioner
sylvester.
I
feel
that
you
and
I
have
had
a
very
fruitful
discussion,
so
I
think
I'd
say
this
is.
B
That's
a
great
idea,
and
I
I
think
it
should
be
considered
by
the
commission
sort
of
adjacent
to
arbitration
and
adjacent
to
the
coaching
study.
I
think
they're
all
intertwined.
C
B
D
That's
all
right,
it's
all
right!
I
just
wanted
to
say
quickly.
I
really
look
forward
to
a
couple
of
months
from
now
when
this
committee
and
the
full
commission
is
at
full
strength,
that'll
be
a
big
help.
I
I
appreciate
your
continuing
on
and
in
the
rather
unusual
circumstances
of
a
two-person
committee,
but
the
amount
of
work
you're
doing
and
the
importance
of
it
certainly
warrants
your
continuation
and
I
think,
you've
done
a
good
job
of
it.
D
The
one
other
thing
I
wanted
to
say
is
that
you
have
gotten
a
lot
of
data
together
here
and
particularly
that
huge
data
set
regarding
the
nuisance
things
and
the
complaints
and
the
racial
disparities
in
those,
I
hope
very
much
or
if
you
are.
I
hope
that
you
plan
to
submit
those
to
both
the
minnesota
department
of
human
rights
and
to
the
department
of
justice
as
part
of
their
investigations.
D
This
is
this
is
important
stuff
and
it's
the
data
that
they
kind
of
like
to
have,
and
I
understand
they
are
also
very
good
at
crunching
large
amounts
of
data,
so
both
the
data
and
your
discussions
of
it
and
thoughts
about
it.
I
think
would
be
greatly
appreciated
by
both
organizations
and
by
by
all
of
us
who
feel
that
it's
important
that
the
work
that
they're
doing
as
well,
so
I
just
want
to
make
sure
that
that
happens
on
behalf
of
the
pcoc.
B
I
did
submit
the
the
professor's
analysis
to
the
doj
and
the
department
of
human
rights.
B
B
It
looks
like
someone
just
called
in,
I
admit
you.
B
B
Star
six:
okay,
perhaps
it
was
a
wrong
number
hearing.
Hearing
no
general.
Thanks
to
all
who
made
general
public
comment,
I
will
direct
the
clerk
to
receive
and
file
these
general
public
comments.
With
that,
we've
concluded
all
items
on
our
agenda
for
this
meeting,
seeing
no
further
business
to
come
before
us
and
without
objection.