►
Description
Additional information at
https://lims.minneapolismn.gov
B
Thank
you
good
evening
and
welcome
to
the
regular
meeting
of
the
police
conduct
oversight,
commission
policy
and
procedure
subcommittee
for
june
24
2021,
I'm
abigail,
sarah,
the
chair
of
the
subcommittee
and
I'm
going
to
call
this
meeting
for
june
24th
2021.
To
order
and
one
point
of
business,
there
seems
to
be
someone
on
the
call
with
the
phone
number
ending
in
zero:
seven
we're
having
technical
difficulties
and
we're
unable
your
line
is
muted
and
we're
unable
to
take
you
off
mute.
B
So
if
you
would
like
to
call
in
to
hang
up
and
call
in
again
that
might
help
us
to
sort
of
fix
that
problem.
Okay,
as
we
begin,
I
will
note
for
the
record
that
this
meeting
has
remote
participation
by
commissioners
and
city
staff
is
authorized
under
minnesota
statute.
Section
13d
.021
due
to
the
declared
local
public
health
emergency.
B
This
meeting
will
be
recorded
and
posted
to
the
city's
website
and
youtube
channel
as
a
means
of
increasing
public
access
and
transparency.
This
meeting
is
public
and
subject
to
the
minnesota
open
meeting
law.
At
this
time
I
will
ask
the
clerk
to
call
roles,
so
we
can
verify
quorum
for
this
meeting
and,
if
possible,
when
we
call
roll,
can
we
also
can
we
vote?
B
C
D
B
The
next
order
of
business
on
our
agenda
is
a
presentation
by
michelle
rivero,
the
director
of
the
city's
office
of
immigration,
refugee
affairs
and
by
ms
vina
iyer,
director
of
the
immigrant
law
center
of
minnesota,
we're
very
lucky
and
very
happy
to
have
both
of
them
here.
Okay,
please
take
it
away.
C
Super
thank
you.
Thank
you.
So
much
for
this
invitation
to
be
here
today.
I'm
especially
happy
that
I'm
here,
because
this
month
is
immigrant
heritage
month
and
on
june
20th,
we
just
celebrated
world
refugee
day.
So
it's
very
meaningful.
I'm
also
very
grateful
that
vina
was
able
to
jump
on
with
us
today.
So
I'll,
just
give
a
brief
overview
about
the
work
of
the
office
of
immigrant
refugee
affairs
and
immigrant
and
refugee
inclusion
initiatives
in
the
city
of
minneapolis
and
talk
a
little
tiny
bit
about
the
report.
C
And
one
of
the
things
that
my
office
does
is
manages
the
contracts
that
the
city
of
minneapolis
has
with
our
immigration
legal
service
providers,
including
immigrant
law
center
of
minnesota,
with
the
goal
of
ensuring
that
people
have
access
to
accurate
and
timely
immigration,
information
and
advice,
regardless
of
ability
to
pay,
as
we
know
that
many
individuals
cannot
afford
on
the
fees
for
an
immigration
attorney.
And
we
have
a
number
of
robust
organizations
that
provide
this
type
of
information
and
advice
to
people.
C
So
another
responsibility
of
the
office
is
to
highlight
and
elevate
opportunities
to
recognize
our
immigrant
refugee
and
new
american
community
members,
including
on
occasions
such
as
immigrant
heritage
month.
So
over
the
course
of
this
month
of
june,
there
have
been
a
number
of
events
with
outward
facing
and
inward
facing
to
recognize
the
importance
of
our
immigrant
and
refugee
residents,
and
also
our
immigrant
and
refugee
staff
members
who
work
at
the
city
of
minneapolis.
C
If
people
are
interested
in
plugging
into
initiatives
that
the
office
of
immigrant
and
refugee
affairs
is
leading
or
participating
in,
we
do
have
a
web
page
there's
an
immigration
bulletin
that
comes
out
regularly.
Given
the
many
changes
with
the
biden
administration,
these
positive
right,
it
has
been
challenging.
It
is
challenging
to
disseminate
information
just
in
writing.
I
mean
there
are
so
many
developments
and
it's
so
important
for
people
to
understand
what
their
rights
are.
What's
changing,
what's
not
changing!
C
That's
starting
in
march,
in
conjunction
with
my
counterpart
in
st
paul
at
mundoliho,
we
started
hosting
a
weekly
immigration
forum.
It's
an
hour
and
a
half
on
tuesdays
from
4
30
to
6.,
and
our
legal
service
providers
participate.
Other
advocacy
organizations
participate.
It's
really
an
opportunity
to
learn
about
what
is
going
on.
C
So
if
people
have
ideas
that
they
want
to
share
or
things
that
are
important,
not
just
in
the
context
of
immigration
law,
but
things
that
touch
immigrant
refugee
and
new
american
communities,
whether
it's
housing,
whether
it's
access
to
culturally
informed
mental
health
care
services,
substance
abuse,
recovery
services,
that's
a
space
where
we
talk
about
those
issues,
connect
people
with
each
other
and
identify
strategies.
You
know
to
take
things
out
of
that
conversation
and
really
to
a
point
of
action.
C
It's
called
gateways
for
growth
and
it's
a
partnership
between
the
minneapolis
regional
chamber
and
the
city
of
minneapolis
working
with
community
to
identify
what
are
those
strategies.
What
are
those
recommendations
that
will
improve
the
quality
of
life
for
our
immigrant
refugee
and
new
american
communities?
If
people
would
like
to
learn
more
about
that,
there
will
very
soon
be
a
website
dedicated
a
web
page
dedicated
on
the
minneapolis
regional
chamber
website
and
please
feel
free
to
reach
out
to
me.
C
E
Thanks
so
much
michelle
and
thanks
so
much
really
to
the
city
for
just
continuous
support
of
our
work,
both
through
funding
but
also
just
being
an
amazing
partner,
as
we
work
to
support
the
immigrants
of
minnesota
of
minneapolis
and
particularly
michelle
who's,
always
a
fantastic
partner
for
not
only
ilcm
but
for
all
of
the
organizations
that
serve
immigrants
and
refugees
in
our
community.
We're
tremendously
lucky
to
have
her,
so
I
just
wanted
to
talk
first
off.
E
E
And
how
does
it
compare
to
those
of
folks
who
are
native
born,
and
I
think
that
this
data
really
blows
out
of
the
water.
The
myths
that
have
been,
I
think,
have
have
really
circulated
in
our
society
for
so
many
years.
In
some
ways,
I
think
just
back
to
the
founding,
which
is
this
notion
that
folks,
who
foreigners,
individuals
who
have
come
from
other
countries,
somehow
increased
the
level
of
crime
in
our
communities,
and
this
study
really
shows.
That
is
not
true.
E
And
so
I
think
that
it's
just
really
important,
as
we
are
thinking
about
policing,
to
make
sure
that
everybody
who's
part
of
the
system
really
understands
that
when
we
are
thinking
about
immigrants
in
our
communities.
We
are
not.
We
are
talking
primarily
about
law-abiding
system
citizens
that
we
are
individuals
and
and
residents
of
our
communities
that
we
really
want
to
be
supporting
and
not
folks
who
are
who
are
who
are
committing
crimes.
E
And,
of
course,
then
there's
the
overlay
of
issues
of
inequities
just
in
charging
decisions
etc.
So
in
some
ways
I
think
that
when
I
look
at
this
data
I
also
say
frankly,
some
of
these
numbers
might
even
be
lower
because
we
do
know
from
data,
obviously
that
sometimes
that
oftentimes
immigrants,
folks
of
color,
are
being
arrested
and
charged
at
higher
rates
than
folks
who
are
not.
Who
who
are
white.
And
so
I
think
that
that
data
also
needs
to
be
examined.
E
In
conjunction
with
this,
then
I
wanted
to
get
to
the
topic
that
really
brings
us
here
today,
which
is
what
we
in
immigration
call
crimigration,
which
is
very
much
that
intersection
between
the
criminal
justice
system
and
the
immigration
system,
and
that's
long
been
a
feature
of
our
immigration
system.
But
I
think,
but
in
so
many
ways
it
has
become
much
much
worse
and
become
even
much
more
embedded
into
the
system
over
the
past
25
years
as
a
result
of
laws
that
have
been
policies
that
have
been
passed
at
the
federal
level.
E
Can
kind
of
confirm
that
as
well
as
commissioner
mcguire,
who
is
also
a
member
of
our
staff,
she
can
also
tell
you
she
deals
with
the
complexities
of
this
on
a
daily
basis,
but
I
don't
want
to
for
this
group.
I
didn't
think
it
was
important.
I
didn't
want
to
get
into
lots
of
minutia
for
you.
Rather,
I
wanted
to
really
talk
about
big
picture
themes
for
you
to
keep
in
mind
as
you're,
going
through
your
work
and
also
in
talking
with
community
about
these
issues.
E
When
it
comes
to
those
applications,
there
are
criminal,
disqualifiers
or
disqualifiers
for
those
benefits
so
oftentimes,
something
that
happened
in
the
criminal
justice
system
often
decades
ago
can
determine
one's
eligibility
for
immigration
benefits
now
also,
there's
a
portion
of
immigration
law
that
is
really
dealing
with
the
deportation
of
non-citizens,
often
folks,
who
have
lived
here
for
decades
and
might
even
have
lawful
status.
One
thing,
that's
also
really
important
to
note
is
just
because
you
have
a
visa
just
because
you
have
lawful
permanent
residence
doesn't
mean
you
can't
be
deported.
E
So
often
a
non-citizen
becomes
deportable
and
is
sometimes
detained
based
on
that
interaction
with
the
criminal
justice
system,
and,
what's
important
to
note,
is
that
without
that
interaction
there,
their
status
might
not
be
threatened,
and
in
the
case
of
the
undocumented
they
might
never
have
been
on
isis
radar,
if
not
for
that
criminal
interaction.
So
we're
going
to
talk
about
that
a
little
bit
more
in
terms
of
practical
issues.
E
There
are
also
times
when
simply
admitting
to
the
facts
of
a
climb,
for
example,
any
really
any
type
of
plea,
including
one
in
criminal
proceedings
like
a
for
example,
a
stay
of
adjudication
which
under
the
state
system,
actually
makes
it
so
that
at
the
end
of
for
the
per
process,
you
don't
have
a
conviction
on
your
record.
Guess
what
doesn't
matter
for
immigration
purposes
that
can
still
have
an
impact
on
your
immigration
status.
It's
considered
a
conviction
for
immigration
purposes
and
can
result
in
deportation.
E
Also
petty
misdemeanor
possession
of
marijuana
is
another
one
and
remember,
even
if
minnesota
were
to
legalize
recreational
marijuana,
still
illegal
at
a
federal
level.
And
so
those
are,
I
think,
some
issues
where,
even
if
minnesota
law
is
relatively
progressive,
as
it
would
appear
as
compared
to
federal
law,
it
doesn't
matter
because
the
federal
law
trumps
and
how
it
treats
the
particular
crime
trumps.
E
Now
there
are
certain
things
that
actually
can
be
done
to
mitigate
those
consequences
and
one
of
those
that
we've
been
working
on
and
that
the
city
of
minneapolis
supports
other
and
other
jurisdiction
support
is,
for
example,
changing
the
changing
the
maximum
conviction
for
gross
misdemeanor
convictions
from
365
days
to
364
days.
It's
a
day.
It
really
doesn't
make
that,
but
it
might
not
seem
to
make
a
big
difference,
makes
all
the
difference
in
immigration
law.
E
It
makes
it
so
that
certain
crimes
that
would
be
considered
aggravated
felonies
and
automatically
make
you
deportable
if
just
that
sent
that
potential
sentence
is
reduced
by
one
day
and
it's
the
potential
sentence,
not
just
the
not
the
sentence
the
person
actually
gets
that
can
that
can
make
it
so
that
it's
not
an
aggravated
felony.
So
it's
the
that's
why
these
areas
are
just
so
so
complex,
and
certainly
there
is
work
that
can
be
done
incrementally
at
the
state
level
to
change
law
to
make
it
better
for
immigrants.
E
E
So
the
first
place
I
wanted
to
start
is
just
stops,
and
I
think
that
that's
a
place
where
there's
some
important
questions
to
be
asked
and
that
are
being
asked
more
broadly
about
the
role
of
implicit
bias
and
bias
in
in
stops.
Certainly,
I
think
we've
talked
a
lot
about
those
stops
and
when
it
comes
to
people
of
color
but
and
then
particularly
within
the
subset
of
immigrants
and
one
of
the
things
here-
and
I
will
say
I
will
be-
you
know
here-
it's
a
question
here-
I
I
don't
feel
like.
E
I
have
enough
information
to
necessarily
make
any
type
of
recommendation,
but
this
is
a
place
that
I
think
there's
it's
worthwhile
to
look
into
a
little
more.
So
you
know
my
understanding
is
that
most
police
officers
with
their
you
know
they
can
run
a
search
while
they're
in
their
squad
car.
Let's
say
that
they've
pulled
somebody
over
for
a
traffic
stop
and
get
some
information
on
the
individual.
E
What
I
am,
I
believe,
is
true
here,
but
I'm
not
100
certain.
Is
that
there's
at
least
some
times
when
immigration
information
shows
up
on
there.
So,
for
example,
if
somebody
has
if
immigration
and
customs
enforcement
has
issued
a
detainer,
which
note
is
not
based
on
probable
cause
and
is
not
signed
by
a
judge,
but
some
immigration
officer
has
said
hey.
E
There
is
no
reason
that
you
need
to
have
information
about
a
detainer
if
the
basis
upon
which
you
can
arrest,
somebody
is
state
or
local
law,
and
so
one
question
is,
if
it
could
cause
bias,
is
it
possible
to
eliminate
that
information
and
make
it
not
available
when
you're
looking
at
information
on
a
squad
car?
Really,
I
think
about
this
a
little
bit
and
commissioner,
sarah
knows
that
my
prior
life
is
as
a
employment
lawyer.
E
It's
essentially
like
banning
the
box
for
for
employment
purposes
in
the
sense
that
you're
preventing
the
in
the
box
you're
preventing
the
employer
for
seeing
information
about
somebody's
criminal
history
before
you
interview
them
here,
could
you
prohibit
them
from
seeing
information
about
somebody's
immigration
status
or
lack
thereof
as
you're,
making
a
decision
about
what
stopping
and
what
to
do
on
a
stop?
So
that's
one
question.
Next
when
it
comes
to
arrests,
just
some
questions,
I
think
that
need
to
be
asked
to
figure
out
and
address
issues
with
regard
to
arrests.
E
How
many
immigrant
menopausans,
for
how
many
of
those
does
a
local
arrest
lead
to
detention
and
deportation,
and
then
how
can
those
arrests
and
bookings
be
reduced?
I
think,
generally,
we
recognize
that
people
are
being
booked,
not
just
immigrants,
perhaps
in
a
lot
of
situations
where
they
don't
need
to
be,
and
so
how
can
we
address
those,
because
it's
often
at
the
jail
or
at
that
hennepin
county
takes
over
and
that's
where
oftentimes
ice
is
contacted
and
where
you
have
the
greatest
risk
of
people
being
deported?
E
Finally,
when
it
comes
to
charging
decisions,
really
some
questions
about
what
can
the
city
attorney
do
for
minneapolis,
who
is
who
is
charged
with
prosecuting
local
crimes
in
saint
paul
in
ramsey
county?
There
are
immigration
attorneys
on
staff
who
are
able
to
advise
about
how
to
charge
crimes
in
order
to
minimize
negative
immigration
consequences?
Could
the
city
attorney
here
in
minneapolis
do
that
and
what's
important?
There
is
just
having
general
policies
to
consider.
The
issue
is,
unfortunately,
not
sufficient.
E
It's
because
all
that
complexity
in
immigration
law
means
that,
unfortunately,
you
can't
necessarily
just
have
across-the-board
policies
oftentimes
to
actually
have
the
effect.
You
want
to
make
sure
that
somebody
or
to
really
minimize
the
chance
of
somebody
getting
deported
because
of
a
particular
offense.
E
You
actually
need
to
make
sure
that
you're
consulting
with
an
immigration
attorney
and
making
the
charging
decision.
So
those
are
just
some
things,
food
for
thought
and
then
I
think
overall,
just
the
note
of
right
now.
I
think
there
are
a
lot
of
communities
that
are
also
worried
about
the
flip
side,
which
is
that
they
are
not
getting
the
police
and
profess
protection
that
they
need
right
now
and
that
they
expect,
because
of
the
lack
of
police
coming
into
and
protecting
immigrant
communities.
B
E
What
it's
a,
let
me
make
sure
I
okay.
So
this
is
what
I'm
gonna
work
through.
What
happens?
Is
you
have
a
crime?
That's
a
crime
at
a
state
level,
so
let's
say
shoplifting
right:
it's
a
misdemeanor
and
we
think
about
it.
It's
an
offense,
but
it's
not
a
super
serious
offense.
We
would
consider,
but
what
because
federal
law
defines
something
as
an
aggravated
felony,
not
based
on
how
it's
classified
at
the
state
level,
but
based
on
other
criteria
like
what's
the
maximum
sentence?
G
Okay,
yep,
that
makes
sense,
and
then
how
does
someone,
because
what
I'm
hearing
is
that
it
would
be
helpful
for
the
county
attorney
to
have
like
an
immigration
attorney
to
be
able
to
specialize
in
that?
How
does
somebody
become
an
immigration
attorney?
Is
it
just
like
a
specialty?
Is
there
like
more
training
like
what
would
be
an
incentive
for
more
lawyers
to
do
that.
E
Oh
great
great
question
so
to
become
an
immigration
attorney,
I
mean
first,
you
just
go.
You
know:
go
to
law
school
et
cetera,
most
of
most
folks
who
are
practice.
Immigration
law
have
taken
several
classes
in
immigration.
Law
have
done
clinics
during
law
school
in
order
to
do
immigration,
but
this
intersection
between
immigration
and
criminal
law
is
like
a
super
sub
specialty.
E
In
some
ways
I
would
say
it's
like
the
pediatric
neurosurgery
of
immigration,
and
so
you
really
have
just
a
small
group
of
people
actually
locally,
who
are
really
really
well
versed
in
these
issues.
So
it's
a
real
high
level
of
specialization
folks
who
have
been
doing
this,
have
oftentimes
been
doing
it
for
years,
and
so
there's
really
like.
You
really
need
to
have
a
certain
level
of
knowledge
to
be
providing
that
advice.
G
Okay
and
then
so
since
it
is
such
a
small
group
of
people
like,
could
it
be
something
as
like?
The
county
attorney
can
maybe
like
like
seek
like
a
specialty
or
somebody
with
an
expertise
or
whatever
to
kind
of
like
consult
it.
So
they
don't
have
to
necessarily
dictate
the
case,
but
they
can
give
them
like
advice
and,
like
maybe.
E
Yeah,
that's
a
very
you
know.
One
thing:
that's
important
is
the
the
dif.
The
public
defender's
office
actually
has
a
has
a
had
a
contract
with
us.
They've
actually
moved
it
and
they're
moving
it
in-house
right
now,
but
that
has
been
the
model
because
the
public
defender
has
it,
but
it's
really
important
to
have
it
on
the
charging
side
too,
I
think
it's
very
possible
there's
some
issues
with
regard
to
legal
conflicts
that
I
think
make
it
a
little
more
complicated
to
do
consulting
on
the
prosecution
side
than
on
the
defense
side,
but.
B
D
E
E
There
might
be
calls
to
ice
to
pick
somebody
up
as
they're,
going
out
the
door
from
the
jail
after
they've
been
released,
and
so
there
are
certainly
issues
and
why
coalitions
here
in
minnesota,
like
the
decriminalizing
communities
coalition,
that
we're
a
part
of
have
been
really
pushing
for
and
are
for
meetings
with
sheriff
hutchinson
in
order
to
address
these
issues.
So
I
would
what
I
would
say
is
yes,
some
improvement.
There's
still
a
long
way
to
go,
and
I
think
what
how
that
scene
is.
D
D
I
am
blessed.
I
work
as
a
paramedic
for
hcmc
in
minneapolis,
so
I'm
blessed
to
work
with
new
immigrant
communities
every
day
and
one
of
the
fascinating
things
that
I've
found
in
my
work
is
that
trying
to
get
people
to
who
come
from
places
that
don't
have
a
functioning
9-1-1
system
to
understand
the
9-1-1
system
and
some
of
the
work
that
I
think
some
folks
do
and
some
of
the
information
that
some
new
immigrant
communities
get.
D
Is
that
if
you
need
to
go
to
the
doctor,
you
call
9-1-1,
right
and
and
john
will
come
get
you
and
that
very
general
message.
Generationally
like
after
one
generation,
people
start
to
figure
out
like
what
is
and
isn't
acute,
but
I'm
just
wondering
is:
is
there
opportunities?
Does
your
office
have
any
opportunities?
Are
there
any
plans
for
opportunities
for
any
sort
of
formal
gathering
to
better
understand
a
functioning
on
one
system
and
public
safety
system
for
new
immigrants
like?
C
Sorry
about
that,
I
feel
like
you
should
have
learned
that
by
now,
but
thank
you
so
much
for
that
question.
I
will
say
that,
with
regard
to
our
office,
it's
a
one-person
office
within
a
larger
department,
the
department
of
neighborhood
and
community
relations,
and
this
department
has
cultural
community
specialists
who
work
with
our
different
cultural
communities,
including
an
individual
who
does
outreach
with
the
southeast
asian
community
and
another
who
does
outreach
with
the
latinx
community
with
regard
to
public
safety
and
learning
about
how
to
access
supports
and
assistance.
Whether
emergency
or
not.
C
These
individuals
are
really
critical
because
of
the
fact
that
they
are
basically
embedded
in
the
different
cultural
communities.
There
is
always
room
for
improvement.
You
know
the
fact
that
the
city
of
minneapolis
has
a
robust
language.
Access
support
system
is
extremely
useful
from
the
standpoint
of
broader
public
engagement.
C
I
know
that
there
are
initiatives
that
have
begun
from
the
standpoint
of
the
opposite:
violence,
prevention
that
have
a
component
of
of
sharing
resources
and
information
about
how
to
access
city
staff.
But
I
think
that
there
is
an
opportunity
there
to
do
a
broader
reach
out
with
cultural
communities,
including
communities
where
perhaps
we
don't
actually
have
a
representative
in
the
city
that
that
that
does
consistently
do
outreach
with
those
communities.
D
Okay,
I'd
love
to
connect
offline
and
you
know,
provide
a
resource
as
far
as
bringing
an
ambulance
to
folks,
and
you
know
putting
folks
in
in
that
space
and
getting
people
comfortable
with
that
space.
Also,
I
think
I'll
close
with
this.
There
were
some
infographics
about
immigrant
populations
that
were
in
the
materials
for
this
meeting.
I
think
that
abigail
sent
around
I'll.
D
Let
you
know
we
this
week
we're
going
to
share
those
among
the
staff,
the
head
up
and
ems,
just
kind
of
as
a
learning
opportunity
to
learn
a
little
bit
more
about
the
folks
that
we
do
serve
and
kind
of
deepen
our
connection
with
those
folks
that
we
do
serve.
So
I
really
appreciate
your
office
putting
those
together
and
we're
just
taking
upon
ourselves
to
to
kind
of
ingrain
our
staff
with
that
information,
and
it's
a
really
beautiful
set
of
infographics.
So
thank
you.
Thank.
C
D
Absolutely-
and
I
will
say
just
to
tweet
our
little
horn
here:
hcmc
is
a
national
leader
in
psychological
trauma
for
victims
of
torture,
specifically
because
of
our
access
to
those
immigrant
communities
that
make
our
society
our
city
so
much
more
dynamic
just
by
them
being
here.
So
thank
you
both
for
coming.
B
We
have
an
all-star
cast
tonight,
just
everyone's
here
I'll
recognize,
commissioner
abdi,
and
I
would
respectfully
request
that
we
keep
it
kind
of
short,
because
we
do
have
another
speaker
and
I
just
want
to
make
sure
that
we
kind
of
move
forward
after
commissioner
abdi's
question
so
last
question
with
commissioner
opti.
Please.
G
E
Since
I
brought
it
up
I'll
I'll
mention
it,
but
as
I
I'll
give
you
the
warning
which
I
gave
to
michelle
yesterday,
this
was
veena
thinking
about.
Oh,
you
know,
underst,
just
through
a
couple
of
interactions,
understanding
more
about
information
that
could
show
up
in
a
traffic
stop
and
just
starting
to
think
about
what
we
could
do.
E
No
research
has
been
this.
It
has
just
been
it's
something
where
I
have
some
questions
to
ask
and-
and
I
do
think
actually
their
first
question
is
just
to
make
sure
that,
like
understanding
exactly
how
much
immigration
information
is
involved
in
those
stops,
I
I
don't
want
to
my
understanding
it
is.
Is
it
is,
but
I'm
not
100
sure.
So
I
think
that
that
question
first
needs
to
be
asked.
If
it
does,
then
I
think
it's
some
questions
about
hey.
E
Would
it
be
helpful
and
could
we
find
a
way
to
program
to
reprogram
those
computers,
so
this
information
doesn't
show
up.
So
I
think
it
would
ask
some
questions
and
then
yes
agree,
costs,
etc
and
then,
of
course
like
there
may
be
some
reasons
why
that
needing
that
information
may
legitimately
be
needed,
but
again
maybe
get
the
legitimate
information,
but
the
other
information
keep
it
out.
B
F
Thank
you.
Just
by
way
of
introduction,
I've
been
following
the
pcoc
meetings
since
they
started
in
2013.
Looking
at
discipline,
I
was
a
member
of
the
civilian
review
authority
for
two
years
prior
to
the
formation
of
the
opcr,
and
so
I've
been
looking
at
discipline
and
accountability
for
police
for
a
long
time.
F
Now
it's
a
difficult,
complex
problem
I'll
try
to
just
summarize
this
particular
aspect
of
it
regarding
arbitration
and
the
frequent
failure
of
discipline
to
be
upheld
in
arbitration
first,
I
want
to
take
just
a
brief
look
at
the
problem.
I
think
it's.
The
fourth
link
on
the
agenda
is
a
slide
showing
the
number
of
complaints
coming
in
and
the
amount
of
discipline
that
results
from
those.
F
This
was
from
the
period
from
the
beginning
of
the
opcr
in
october,
2012,
to
the
day
that
george
floyd
was
killed,
the
civilian
complaints
that
came
in
people,
members
of
the
public
who
came
in
and
filed
a
complaint,
gave
their
statement.
You
know
the
whole
shot
that
went
through,
possibly
investigation,
possibly
you
know
the
panel
possibly
further
on
in
that
time
period.
Those
2783
complaints
led
to
discipline
and
only
13
of
those
civilian
complaints.
F
F
Now
you'll,
forgive
me,
but
because
I've
been
a
broken
record
coming
to
the
pcoc
meetings
here
for
the
last
seven
years
and
bringing
up
the
lack
of
discipline.
We
get
this
information
that
I
just
presented
from
directly
from
the
office
of
police
conduct
review
through
data
practice
requests.
So
this
information
is
their
information.
F
F
F
We've
seen
that
in
many
high-profile
cases
we
certainly
see
that
in
the
case
of
derrick
shoven,
who
had
so
many
complaints
and
and
no
discipline,
so
we've
been
looking
for
a
long
time
at
what
goes
wrong.
Why
isn't
there
more
discipline
in
a
department
which
you
know
obviously
is
not
so
perfect
that
it
should
have
no
discipline?
All
you
have
to
do
is
look
at
the
lawsuit
settlements,
to
know
that
there
is
a
very
serious
problem
with
officer
misconduct
and
brutality,
but
it
isn't
showing
up
in
the
statistics
for
discipline.
F
So
why
is
that
happening?
And
I
call
your
attention
to.
I
think
it's,
the
third
attachment
to
the
agenda,
which
is
called
you
know,
steps
to
achieving
discipline
through
the
opcr
I've
taken
three
or
four
different
documents
about
how
the
opcr
functions
taken
out.
All
the
other
steps.
You
know
where
things
go
off
to
the
side,
to
coaching
or
mediation
or
dismissal,
and
just
looked
at
the
steps
it
takes
to
get
to
discipline.
F
As
you
can
see,
it's
it's
a
long
document,
there's
many
steps.
Also.
We
find
that
the
supposedly
civilian
side,
which
involves
two
civilians
of
the
opcr,
basically
is
a
gatekeeper
for
the
internal
affairs
unit,
which
then
takes
a
look
at
the
cases.
The
police
conduct
review
panel.
The
two
officers
and
two
civilians
looks
only
for
merit.
It
doesn't
look
for
the
level
of
the
offense
and
it
doesn't
decide
or
even
recommend
the
amount
of
discipline,
simply
merit.
F
That
goes
to
the
internal
affairs,
so
there's
many
steps
there
and
we
have
brought
that
again
to
the
attention
of
people
for
a
long
time.
I
won't
harp
on
that.
The
question
is,
and
that
leads
into
you
know
what
you've
been
talking
about
with
coaching
and
hiding.
You
know
accountability
through
coaching,
but
even
then
after
there
is
so
little
discipline
coming
out
of
the
opcr.
F
F
So-
and
I
think
the
importance
of
this
is,
it
leads
the
structure
and
the
function
in
the
opcr
to
sort
of
be
a
situation.
Well,
what's
the
point
if
an
intake
person
in
the
opcr
sees
something
that
looks
pretty
egregious,
probably
should
result
in
some
discipline,
but
they
look
at
what's
been
happening
in
grievance
and
arbitration
and
say
wow.
F
So
so
we
started
looking
at
and
we've
this
we've
been
involved
in
a
period
of
research.
That's
been
oh
five,
six
years
or
so
of
trying
to
figure
out.
You
know
where.
Where
is
this
step?
Where
things
go
wrong,
you
know:
we've
looked
for
a
long
time
at
the
opcr
and
we
still
do,
but
is
it
that
the
power
of
the
union
makes
it
impossible
to
discipline,
and
this,
of
course,
is
what
a
lot
of
people
are
saying.
The
union
is
too
powerful.
F
F
At
this
point,
it
still
has
a
lot
of
power
at
the
legislature,
but
within
the
city
very
little
when
I
first
ran
for
city
council
back
what
16
years
ago,
everybody
looked
for
the
police
federation
endorsement,
it
was
essential
and
you
advertised
it
now.
You
can
be
sure
that
there
hasn't
been
a
candidate
in
the
last
year,
eight
years,
who
would
even
accept
the
endorsement
from
the
police
federation,
it's
the
kiss
of
death,
so
the
strength
of
the
union
certainly
isn't
much
of
the
answer
there.
F
So
there's
the
strength
of
the
contract
what's
in
the
contract,
why
is
it
unusual?
Why
is
this
a
contract
that
leads
to
an
impossibility
of
disciplining
compared
to
other
labor
contracts?
And
so
we
looked
at
the
contract
very
carefully.
All
128
pages
went
through
the
discipline
sections.
All
of
that
it
is
a
standard
union
contract
for
public
employees.
F
It
has
a
grievance
process
and
arbitration
possibility
as
it
should,
and
you
know
there
are
moves
afoot
and
a
whole
lot
of
people
yelling
about
we've
got
to
get
rid
of
arbitration.
Well,
we've
got
to
get
rid
of
a
grievance
procedure
entirely.
First
of
all,
you
can't
do
it.
Secondly,
you'd
use
a
whole
lot
of
political
capital,
fighting
all
the
other
public
employee
unions,
who
would
quite
rightly
see
this
is
a
disaster
for
them
as
well.
F
This
is
not
the
direction
to
go
is
to
get
rid
of
grievance
process
and
arbitration
entirely
and
besides
which
it
is
certainly
the
case
that
sometimes
police
departments,
even
our
police
department,
discipline,
an
officer
for
the
wrong
reasons,
and
they
deserve
to
have
that
process.
Discipline,
for
you
know
unfair,
discriminatory
things.
You
know
that
a
number
of
african-american
officers
were
demoted
disciplined
for
whistleblowers.
F
F
That's
done
in
the
same
way
as
is
done
for
any
other
union
contract,
whether
it's
public
employees
or
private
employees,
and
I
believe
then
I
somebody
may
correct
me
on
this,
but
I
believe
a
state
law
is
just
passed,
selecting
a
group
of
arbitrators
at
the
state
level.
So
you
don't
get
this
thing
of
well.
We
only
get
the
arbitrators
who
solve
half
of
the
cases
one
way
and
the
other
half
this
way,
so
that
people
will
continue
to
choose
them
so,
but
that
doesn't
seem
to
be
the
fundamental
problem.
F
So
we
figured
the
arbitrators
are
biased
for
the
police
and
you
know
there
might
be
some
of
that,
but
we
looked
through
started
reading
through
arbitrations
we're
limited
in
how
many
of
those
we
can
look
at,
because
if
there
isn't
final
discipline,
we
can't
see
the
arbitration
or
any
other
part
of
the
file.
So
and
of
course,
if
the
discipline
is
upheld,
that
doesn't
tell
us
very
much
about
how
and
why
the
police
department
loses
an
arbitration.
F
F
There's
three
basic
standards
that
a
arbitrator
has
to
go
by
the
first
one
is
pretty
obvious:
the
employer.
In
this
case
the
police
department,
has
to
prove
its
case.
It
has
to
document
that
the
officer
really
did
do
what
they're
accused
of
doing
and
with
a
certain
level
of
proof.
It's
certainly
level
far
below
a
shadow
of
a
a
doubt.
F
You
know
in
the
criminal
case,
but
nevertheless
they
have
to
prove
that
and
document
it
and
minneapolis
has
lost
some
arbitrations
frankly,
because
their
investigations
were
just
horrible
and
then
the
arbitrator
has
said
so,
that's
not
the
biggest
step.
The
second
thing
is
that
the
discipline
has
to
be
progressive.
F
If
it's
a
more
minor
offense,
you
know
a
major
offense,
a
killing
like
that
or
a
severe
beating
or
something
one
time
and
you're
out.
I
mean
there's
no
progressive
discipline
for
somebody
who
just
goes
berserk
after
a
maybe
otherwise
okay
career,
but
things
like
you
know
being
late
to
work.
You
don't
you
know
not
mention
it
for
two
weeks
and
then
fire
someone.
You
have
to
have
progressive
discipline
that
that
doesn't
come
up
in
most
of
the
ones
because
they're
more
egregious
cases,
otherwise
they
go
to
coaching.
F
The
third
one
is
the
really
critical
one,
and
that
is
the
consistency
of
discipline,
and
this
is
a
basic
union
principle.
It's
why
people
unionize
in
the
first
place-
and
you
know
I
I
am
not
anti-union-
I've
been
involved
in
union
organizing
myself
and
I
know
it's
not
pay
and
benefits
that
it's
the
thing
that
gets
people
to
unionize,
it's
the
fairness
of
treatment
by
the
employer.
F
F
The
arbitrator
unfortunately
correctly
overturned
that
termination,
as
it
turns
out
this
even
involved
progressive
discipline,
because
two
of
the
previous
cases
were
the
same
officer.
So
a
fellow
who
got
you
know
the
victim
received
2
million
from
the
city
and
eventually
that
officer
was
criminally
convicted.
F
I
mean
it's
that
bad
a
case,
but
the
arbitrator
rightly
threw
out
the
termination,
because
there
is
not
a
consistency
in
discipline.
The
police
department
didn't
make
it
at
all
in
fact
made
it
quite
clear
that
what
he
did
was
acceptable
based
on
past
practice
and
that's
the
term.
That's
really
important
here
in
in
arbitration
is
past
practice.
F
We
have
a
flyer
which
is
also
linked
to
this
meetings
agenda,
which
it's
just
a
one-page
flyer
from
communities
united
against
police
brutality
which
lays
out
why
we
feel
arbitration
itself
is
not
the
problem.
It
is
a
problem
in
the
sense
that
the
police
department
is
losing
an
arbitration,
as
I
say,
undercutting
the
chief
and
undercutting
the
culture.
F
So,
but
what
do
we
do
here?
Because
if
you
can't
discipline,
because
it
would
be
inconsistent
with
past
practice,
where
you
never
discipline-
and
if
you
look
at
these
statistics
of
almost
eight
years
of
the
opcr,
where
13
complaints
led
to
discipline,
how
on
earth
are
you
ever
going
to
discipline?
It's
a
catch-22?
F
And
this
is
where
we,
you
know,
we
continued
on
our
step-by-step
research.
This,
as
I
say,
this
was
quite
a
process
for
us
over
a
number
of
years,
and
we
found
that
there
is
a
process
for
this
and
it's
true
in
for
private
companies
for
public
employers
and
police
departments.
It's
a
process,
that's
loosely
called
a
reset
mechanism.
F
F
You've
heard
about
the
discipline
matrix,
that's
a
listing
of
the
various
policies,
with
the
consequences
for
their
violation
and
different
levels,
depending
on
how
severe
the
violation
is
and
different
levels
for
mitigating
circumstances
or
aggravating
circumstances
or
repeat
violations.
So
it's
laid
out
it's
fairly
complex
and
it
needs
to
be
quite
thorough.
F
F
This
was
one
of
two
proposals
we
presented
in
that
first
meeting
and
took
him
quite
a
while
to
sort
of,
understand
and
agree
to
this,
but
we've
been
talking
about
it
ever
since,
and
that
proposal
is,
I
think
it's
the
first
attachment
to
this
agenda
and
is,
I
think,
worth
looking
at
because
it
lays
out.
You
know
what
I've
been
saying
here
and
what
the
chief
can
do,
and
so
that
is
the
way
to
do
it.
We
know
that
this
can
be
done.
F
We
know
that
this
is
an
existing
process
for
one
thing
in
2009,
when
I
was
back
on
the
civilian
review
authority
perf,
the
police
executive
research
forum
came
into
the
city
to
discuss
discipline
shortly
after
that
the
police
department
made
its
first
discipline
matrix
in
2009.
It
didn't
have
not
had
any
discipline
matrix
before
that
they
made
their
first
discipline
matrix
and
they
put
out
a
statement
there.
It
was
in
bold
print
in
a
box
on
the
center
of
the
page.
F
F
F
What
happened
is
that
the
new
practice
became
exactly
the
same
as
the
past
practice.
Chief
dolan
was
the
chief
at
that
time.
He
refused
to
discipline
based
on
what
this
civilian
review
authority
recommended
and
before
hardly
any
time
it
passed
at
all
that
whole
discipline
matrix
seemed
meaningless,
because
there's
two
steps
you've
got
to
have
the
reset,
and
then
you
have
to
follow
it.
So
the
question
is
or
one
of
the
outstanding
questions
is.
F
Where
is
that
we
have
been
talking
to
the
chief
quite
frequently
over
the
years
and
it's
taken
forever
to
get
a
discipline
matrix
together.
It's
just
I
don't
know.
Every
time
there
was
a
flake
of
snow,
something
was
in
the
way
and
lately
there's
been
problems.
Coaching
language,
the
review
by
the
city
attorney's
office,
a
lack
of
staff
that
we've
had
recently
those
have
been
holding
it
up
in
the
meantime,
at
least,
for
use
of
force.
F
Saint
paul
has
put
this
process
in
place
in
as
a
recommendation
that
we
put
forward
to
them.
Chief
axtell
was
enthusiastic
about
it
and
he's
getting
good
results,
but
it's
been
stalled
here.
We're
still
trying
to
find
out
exactly
where
it
stands.
As
of
last
october,
when
we
met
with
the
chief,
it
was
still
a
little
ways
off.
We
got
these
problems,
some
of
them
are
legitimate
problems.
I
know
the
chief
has
struggled
with
lack
of
staff
and
funding
for
these
sorts
of
things.
We're
trying
to
follow
up.
F
You
may
recall
on
your
may
11th
agenda
the
full
commission.
There
was
a
city
attorney's
opinion
and
at
the
bottom
of
that,
was
a
discipline
matrix
dated
march
2018
and
a
reset
dated
november
2018,
which
really
shows
what
we're
looking
at.
Unfortunately,
those
apparently
were
just
drafts
sent
to
the
city
attorney's
office,
and
so
I
have
a
letter
out
to
the
chief
right
now
saying
what
is
the
status
of
those?
What
is
the
status?
So
we
need
to
know
more
about
that.
We
need
to
push
for
that
as
we
have
been.
F
The
department
of
justice
or
somebody's
going
to
come
in
and
say
you've
got
to
do
this,
but
once
that
happens,
it's
going
to
be
critical
that
then
the
discipline
is
consistent
after
that
which
is
going
to
require,
I
think,
a
complete
reform
of
the
office
of
police
conduct
review
and
that's
another
area
where
you
folks
come
in,
and
I
know
you're
talking
about
that.
In
fact,
I
think
it's
the
next
item
on
your
agenda,
so
thank
you
very
much.
B
Thank
you,
mr
vicking,
fascinating.
As
always,
and
we
we
really
appreciate
your
support
and
engagement.
So
thank
you
for
being
here.
Regrettably,
I
would
like
to
open
this
up
for
questions,
but
we're
already
over
time,
so
I
do
need
to
close
the
meeting.
Mr
bicking
is
often
made
himself
available,
so
I'm
sure
commissioners,
if
he
would
care
to
email
him
or
you
know
I
think
there'll
be
an
opportunity
for
us
to
engage
with
mr
vicking
outside
of
this
meeting.
So
thank
you
again,
mr
bicking.
B
B
Thank
you,
mr
baking.
Regrettably
I
have
to
we
have
to
skip
the
next
items
of
business
and
I
will
put
them
on
the
agenda
for
the
following
month.
Also,
please
email
me
if
you
have
suggestions
for
topics
or
speakers
for
the
next
month
and
all
right
with
that,
we've
concluded
all
items
on
our
agenda
for
this
meeting,
seeing
no
further
business
to
come
before
us
and
without
objection.
I
will
declare
this
meeting
adjourned.