City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire 2022 - 2024 City Council, 16 Nov 2022

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From YouTube: 11.16.2022 City Council Special Meeting (Part 2/2)

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11.16.2022 City Council Special Meeting (Part 2/2)

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So um kevin hasn't started yet so, let's just oh kevin, hasn't started. Sorry kevin. The folks.

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Joining at home, we're gonna we're gonna open this up and start with a presentation uh see steph.

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Thank you. Thank you mayor. Thank you, counselors, thank you for taking the trek out on the property.

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Earlier today wasn't too wet tonight, though so very good, um so I'm al pratt, I'm the water.

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Resource manager for the city of portsmouth, um my begin begin. This presentation just really with a.

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General overview of the water transmission project and I'll get into a little bit of the construction.

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Plans and details, um then I'm going to turn the presentation over to trevor mccourt the.

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Assistant city attorney to discuss the legal matters associated with this property. In this.

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Project and get into the proposed motion also here tonight are representatives from wright-pierce.

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They are the consulting firm that we've hired to help us work on the design of this project as well.

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As all the permitting that's associated project, they are darren larry, who is the project manager.

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And and brett ekstrom, who is the project engineer as well as the uh lead on all of the permitting.

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That's been going on this project also from the city working on this project. Brian gatz.

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Deputy director of public works and zach cronin assistant city engineer, they've all been working.

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On this project, for many years now and we'll all be here to answer questions after the presentation.

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So I'll begin, the first slide here is just the general background of the transmission main um as.

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You may know the majority of the water supply to the portsmouth water system comes from our sources.

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In madbury that includes the bellamy reservoir, as well as for groundwater wells that we have.

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At our treatment water facility in madbury and all that water is piped through this transmission main.

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Into portsmouth, it all ends up in the newington booster pumping station and from there the water.

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Is re-pumped into the city to maintain the pressures throughout the distribution system.

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So this transmission main was installed by the army corps of engineers back between 1953 and 1957.

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And after its completion the pipeline and a 40-foot easement that went along with that.

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Pipeline was the ownership was transferred to the city of portsmouth. um So we have that here.

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So the pipeline from the madbury water treatment facility passes through many.

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Properties uh in madbury and durham crosses route 4 across wagon hill until it reaches little bay.

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And up until this point, the the pipe is constructed of a pre-stressed, concrete.

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Cylindrical pipe very sturdy, very solid, pipe 24 inch pipe when it reaches a little bay. It.

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um Becomes two 20 inch cast iron water mains that pass underneath little bay from there.

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On it, it goes back into a concrete pipe to the newington booster station.

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um We can go to. The next slide has actually a close-up of the crossing a little bit that we're.

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Really talking about the focus of this project, as you see these, these are two cast iron pipes.

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Where they divided to these two pipes here, this is the layout. You see wagon hill in the upper left.

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And fox point on the right there where they come together. There are valves on each of these cast.

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Iron pipes with the intention when this was built, if something happened to one of those pipes, they.

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Could shut it off and still have the redundancy to be able to run water through the other pipe.

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um We can go on to the next slide. I'd like to talk a little bit about the sources of water.

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Before we get into more details about um so on the portsmouth side of the of the bay, we.

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Have three groundwater supply wells? um There are sources for the portsmouth system. On average they.

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Provide about 22 percent of the water, a demand and enforcement system. Those can be increased to.

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Almost 44 40 percent of the total water demand and these percentages are really based on just.

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The fort smith water system- they don't include the wells and peas they're, two separate systems in an.

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Emergency, we could transfer water from the system or the portsmouth system vice versa, but as you.

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Note here it's 78 of the water is coming from our sources in the library. That's the surface. Water.

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Treated surface water and our welding library, that's on average, that's a lot of water that.

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Turns out to be about 2.8 million gallons a day on average, which is a little less than 2, 000 gallons.

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A minute so imagine that much water going through these pipes under the transmission bay. It makes.

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This this is an incredibly critical infrastructure for the city to be getting water to the city. The.

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Next slide, I think I get into so in 2016 we had divers inspect these pipes under the bay.

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um Much of the pipe are buried in the sediment, so I think it was even less than 10 percent or.

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So that we could actually, the divers could actually see and measure. This is some of the.

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Videos that they took, as you see, there's a lot of pitting on this pipe, which is only natural they're.

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Cast iron pipes and they've been in salt water for 65 years, so they are very degraded. Another.

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Thing that was noticed during this inspection was the valves which I mentioned on either side.

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Of these pipes they were underwater. They were very deep 17 10 to 17 feet underground, so not.

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Very safe access and they have not been operated in years, so it was deemed that they are inoperable.

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The good news was in 2016, the divers found no leaks in these pipes.

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And we hope that's still the case next slide so that, with after talking to consultants, engineering.

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Firms after that inspection, we considered many different options for for what we were to do about.

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These pipes and we decided on this new 24 inch diameter identity, polyethylene pipe as a third.

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Pipe to be put in the bay, this will ultimately be a replacement pipe for the existing two pipes.

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It will be installed on the the sediments across much of the bay where the pipe comes to the.

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Shoreline, it will be buried. Concrete weights need to be added to this pipe to sink in make sure it's.

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Stable along the bed bottom, but where it comes ashore, there'll be some dredging required to be.

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Able to bring that pipe in onto land to minimize any kind of environmental impacts we are proposing.

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Installing a temporary cofferdam setup so it'll be a very contained area because when you're.

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Digging in these sediments, all that could get into the bay. But if we have this coffer dam in.

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Place they'll be very confined into that one area where we're doing the work and in order to do the.

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Dredging you'll need to build a temporary trestle, so a crane with a with a bucket could go out onto.

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The water and work in this copper dam area to do the dredging to be able to bring the pipe in.

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um And all this work needs to be done, the actual in-water work by permit it needs to be done.

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Between december and march, I think darren said november earlier: does it time frame where it's.

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In the winter time where there is minimal growth activity in the salt marsh minimum impacts would.

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Happen to the salt marsh another part of this project will be to replace the valves in the.

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Existing water mains, so once the new transmission main, is in place, uh we'll be running water through.

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That and we will get into the old mains replace those valves, so we will be able to maintain.

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Operation of those old pipes, but also have the ability to shut them off, because the valves will.

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Then be operating properly and we'll be able to access those valves from the ground level.

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So I'll make it much more easy for us in the future I mean a big part of this project is.

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The shoreland and the title zone- restoration after this is all said and done, and there will.

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Be disturbances on both sides as we're dredging and putting the pipe in place. All of those title.

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Title zones- salt marsh areas- will need to be restored. That's part of the project, the project.

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Won't be complete until that is done, I believe, there's a five-year period after the project to.

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Ensure that the fall successfully been restored permitting is another very large aspect of this.

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Whole project that has been doing an excellent job on keeping up with all of our permits for the des.

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And federal agencies we are in the process of the wetland permit process right now. um I also want to.

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Make note of work we've done with town of durham and the town of newington they've been great to.

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Work with, and we really appreciate their support with all of this- uh the project we're doing here.

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From the next slide, I believe we get into some photos of construction, so.

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On the right here, that's an example of a pipe. I believe. That's an 18 inch pipe.

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Yeah about that, so this is an example of the hdpe pipe, with the cut with the concrete collars on it.

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Our pipe will be a bit bigger than that and the trestle system, where the the crane can.

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Go out and and work as you see, the pipe will be assembled onshore. It'll be assembled on the.

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Newington side and floated across the bay and then when water is put in and the buoyant buoyancy is.

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Taken off of it that pipe will sink down to the bottom of the bag and it'll be dredged into into.

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Place as you see here, they have the clamshell bucket that they're using to to do the printing.

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And this is just the layout of where the pipe is proposed right between the same footprint of the.

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Existing pipes, this will minimize the impacts, as areas has already been disturbed with the.

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Installation of the old pipes and we're laying new pipes along the bottom there and you see the.

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Connection points uh just noting the wagon hill property on the upper left and the 180 piscataqua.

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Road property adjacent to the bay on the on the fox point side. The same same way that pipeline.

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Is going to be coming up onto shore and will be tapped into the existing concrete portion of pipe.

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I believe there's one more. This is uh just showing also the the easement that we have.

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That he's meant that was transferred to the city of portsmouth from the federal government touched.

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Right across wagon hill, right along this, is where the water main is, um and it goes right in through.

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The 180 piscatical road construction area, the season- allows us to really maintain the pipeline.

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Route, we have air vents that we go out every year and maintain at this time I'll turn the.

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Presentation over to trevor mccourt to talk more about the legal aspects of the project.

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Thank you al um trevor, mccourt assistant city attorney for the city and before I get into.

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um The the specifics of the ask are of the proposal developed by city's consultants and.

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City staff, I'd like to first talk just a little bit about the history of this water line. To give.

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The council a little bit of context here um on on. Why we're here and what it is we're doing.

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uh This line, as al mentioned, was installed by the army corps of engineers at the behest of.

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The united states air force in the 1950s in a context of um the cold war and a lack of really.

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Any meaningful environmental regulations, as we know them today, they installed this line.

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uh Quite quickly, and without a lot of thought towards those environmental concerns and.

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um The the way that they did that at the time, impacted a large portion of the property.

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um That is shown, I think, on the on the next slide here. This is a depiction of the the.

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Temporary access, easement that was taken by the air force and used by the air force at that time,.

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They did this kind of kind of an artfully. They didn't do it in any sort of narrow scope, as as.

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We are proposing now they took quite a wide swath of area to install this line and when.

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They when they did this and when I say they did this in an artful way, this is kind of what leads.

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Us to one of the reasons why we are here: they did not secure these these rights to be able to go in.

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And repair or replace the line in the future, um which is why we need those additional rights now.

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To replace this line and further when they did the um when they did the legal description of what the.

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Permanent easement that we inherited from the air force when they did that legal description. They.

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Did not describe a small portion of the one of the redundant lines that crosses the bay, so there's a.

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Both a permanent easement presented to the council and a temporary construction, these.

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Two temporary construction easements, so you go to the next slide. So this is um the limits of.

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What is proposed now this? This shows uh the the two dotted areas indicate the proposed temporary.

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Construction easement and the the the the slashed area area a is the proposed permanent easement as.

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I mentioned before that permanent easement secures an existing cast iron line. That is not currently.

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Within an easement and those those temporarys will be where we lay down for construction. Those areas.

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Were have been developed, they've been moved and reduced in scope through both discussions with.

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The property owner and working with them and and their use of the property and where they.

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Would prefer the impact to be, and also in consultation with uh our engineers and the.

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Department, environment, environmental services, uh the access for the project will be over wagon hill.

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And then we will come in through our existing easement to access the waterfront storage of.

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Materials we'll be we're proposing for that all to be on the wagon hill property and in order to.

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Keep them the impact here to the private property owners as as minimal as possible. That has been.

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Our goal as we've we've gone about this while respecting the concerns raised by the department.

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Of environmental services and the impacts to the environment, you go to the next slide. Please.

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So here's some photos of of the area we're proposing to impact the.

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Temporary easement is a total of 18 129 square feet approximately and the existing.

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Which is slightly larger than the existing easement that we have 16 145 square feet.

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And the additional easement that is required is 2453 square feet.

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Go to the next slide, so that brings us to the question that is before this council. What will be.

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Asked if this council is to identify those burdens and social costs on the private property owner as.

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The result of the the taking of the eminent domain proceedings assess the the benefits.

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Of the project of the proposed project- and those are all those benefits that al has has discussed.

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And presented to to you and then balance those competing interests. And if, if it comes.

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Out that the benefit to the public outweighs that impacts to the private property owner.

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Then it would be appropriate to declare a public necessity for the seminant domain.

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And that brings us to the last slide and that's the proposed motion which would be to adopt the.

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Resolution in the form proposed now you've heard the presentation by both al and and myself.

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We're both available for questions, as are our engineers from right pierce, um but there should.

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Also be a public hearing where evidence may be taken from the public on both of those issues.

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Both both the the benefit to the public and any uh burden or or social impact to the property owners.

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Foreign. Thank you trevor.

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This is an order of events. We should probably hold the questions for uh al and trevor until.

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After we hear from the public, can I get a show of hands of people who might like to speak.

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Okay, we have two folks. So typically, we try to have a three-minute five minute.

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Unlimited but we'll just have unlimited time, and is anybody representing the property owner.

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You are okay, um and do you happen to be a portsmouth resident.

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Okay, so we'll just need a a motion to suspend the rules uh to allow a non-resident to to.

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Speak first, second, uh all in favor aye, and uh if you would like to come up to the podium.

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um You got all night, but I would appreciate it. We could, if we didn't, we didn't take.

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That, but this is important and you know all of us went out and you guys had a beautiful.

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um A beautiful parcel of land- I it's the first time. I saw it from that area road by.

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It a lot as a kid when I was a rower, but it was beautiful, parcel land that you guys have.

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Right now, and as a part of this, we all had to be out at various times. We all had to to walk the.

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Property and see the property as part of that and appreciate the willingness to be a part of this.

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Process, yes, and thank you very much for allowing me more than three minutes, because the landowners.

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Janet mackey and sandy mclean mclean have a number of issues that they would like to bring to your.

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Attention and my name is marcia brown, I'm with nh brown law and I'm representing the landowners.

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Janet mackey and sandy mclean. Thank you very much for your time and uh attention to our remarks.

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The presentation today gives the impression that the project has proceeded on a very smooth linear.

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Path forward with the landowners, but from the landowner's perspective, this is not accurate.

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They don't, they do not agree the city primarily because the city is on plan from their perspective,.

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On plan affecting their property, not the newington side, they're on plan number three at this point.

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The city has presented the mclean's with three different project plans um in 19, 2020, 2021 and.

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Most recently in 2022 each year there have been major changes from the landowner's perspective.

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To the project and when the mclean's found out about these changes, it was after the fact and.

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They were never told why so here today the city has been being presented with what is plan three.

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That no longer includes the original 30 foot wide access road across the lelands property.

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To the north and cross in front of the mclean's property to the work site. Instead, you now have an.

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Access road that comes from wagon hill, the mcleans heard about this most recent change in the project.

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In an email in june of 2020 showing that the staging area and access road was now on wagon hill.

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In august 2020, I'm sorry 2022, the city requested access to the mclean's land and to inside their.

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House for an appraisal appraisal to be done. It was the mcleans that asked well if they're going.

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To be appraising the inside of the house, what easement is the appraiser appraising.

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So the mclean's asked the city to provide them with an updated map showing what land.

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The appraiser was appraising or what the city wanted to now take for its temporary easement.

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As of the june 2022 map this, because the staging area was on wagon hill farm.

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So in september the mclean's received a rough map which had not been overlaid with.

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The aerial images before showing which trees should be cut bushes, that would be in the way.

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And when the mclean's received this plan, it was specifically stated that.

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um The plan to use the access road from wagon hill was far from finalized.

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Which begs the question with the authority that the city is asking you to or.

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For the eminent domain authority, what is the project? What is the the city council being.

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Asked to approve today if the access road from wagon hill is far from being finalized.

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Just to give you a flavor of why the the uh the mclean's um wants you to understand that from.

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Their perspective, they have been extremely patient with the city during this project. Notwithstanding.

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Some of the uh news reports we saw in the newspaper today. um First uh the mcleans became.

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Aware of the project when the city emailed them or mailed them an easement fee to sign.

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The city did not tell the mclean's anything about the project or how it.

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Would affect their house the land, the shoreline during construction.

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In another example, the mcleans received an offer from the city in july of I'm sorry august of 2021.

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The mclean's spent a great deal of time reviewing that project asking questions.

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About inconsistencies that it found in the plans identified issues that.

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They would like to include in an mou, and today you've heard some of the the city.

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Describing some of the issues that we feel that have been pinned down in a proposed mou.

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So when the mcleans reached out to the city on these many items, the city was going to respond.

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But in september 2021 during a conference call to explain some of the inconsistencies and provide.

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Additional information it was mentioned that in july this is 2021. This is before the august.

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2021 city offer that they had completely revised the project and had filed it with department of.

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Environmental services- the um the claims didn't know about this, so um the time that the mcleans.

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Had spent thoughtfully, considering the city's plan and offer was wasted because that now.

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Knew that there were major changes to the the plan. This is plan number two.

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Plan number two includes the 400 foot, long, copper dam, trestle a ramp to be constructed.

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On the landowners which you saw was fragile, sandy shoreline and extended out into little bay.

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The coffer dam would be constructed with heavy steel sheet piles that would be trucked across.

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The mclean's lawn on tractor-trailer trucks there would be 850 feet of steel sheet piles for this.

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400 foot coffer dam that would be pounded into little bay by a crane on an adjacent 400 foot.

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Trestle in front of their house so plan two raised a number of concerns related to the construction.

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Restoration that were not in the concerns that would have been raised with plan one.

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Now, in march of 2022, the mclean's received an offer which was based on plan number two.

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From the city, the plans were represented to the mclean says being near finalized.

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So on april 6 2022 the mclean sent the city a number of questions, but just to give you a.

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Flavor of some of the inconsistencies there were questions about why the specifications.

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Were referring to a project in rochester new hampshire, not durham, the rochester construction.

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Specifications were absolutely not relevant to the project in durham. So in fact, the question of what.

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Were the specifications that were supposed to be there relative to the durham project so just to.

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Give you a flavor. It is tough to review a project when things keep changing or from the landowner's.

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Perspective there's these kind of inconsistencies: they're, not engineers. You know they're looking.

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At black and white, what is being presented to them as the project for them to consider.

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So, just to give you an you know, this is to give you a flavor of the lack of attention to detail.

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um That has added to the list of questions from that any landowner.

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In the mclean's situation would have now this the city's consultant right. Pierce responded.

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In may of 2022 to the spec, the questions of the mclean's asked and then less than two weeks later.

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The mcleans receive an email stating that the city is changing the access road that was in plan two.

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To come across the leland property, the new plan would access the construction.

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Site from the west, from wagon hill farm, which is a public park as you as you know,.

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um Throughout this, the mcleans believe that they have been very cooperative. They have.

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Given permission for the des wetlands surveys for plan number three to be done, as I have.

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For many other wetland surveys, borehole eat borehole surveys, easement, surveys, etc. This has.

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Been continually uh you know when they receive a request, they work out what work you know if they.

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Have company over we just pick a different day for the surveyors to come over to the property, so the.

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Mcleans feel like they have been very generous, very patient in working through these issues.

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Now I want to also touch upon um the mclean's asked.

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I touched upon this earlier in the remarks, but I just to be a little bit more detailed.

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In the uh in the august, 2022 a city approach of the mclean's to.

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Appraise the inside of their house, that was when they got the plan.

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In september that had changed the location of the temporary easement from what was depicted in 20. In.

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Plan number two but interesting to note that that plan was dated in march of 2022 six months earlier.

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And again, this is just another instance where plans are changing, they seem to have been.

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Changed months earlier and here the land you know, the mcleans are considering the project.

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Making a list of all the concerns for the mou yet they're not kept in the loop in a timely.

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Manner and it just gets frustrating moving forward with negotiations when the substance.

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Keeps changing the temporary easement scope keeps changing, concepts are not finalized or.

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Represented as final I or near finalized concerns keep changing because the scope keeps changing.

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And it at the end, results in a tremendous waste of the mclean's time reviewing these, so I just wanted.

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You to get a perspective from the landowner's view of being asked to review projects, and they.

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Keep changing the frustration that they feel that they have gone through and also to exhibit the.

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Patience of pointing out all of these errors that they have demonstrated I'd like to just.

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Overlay, their their frustration, also with the fact that eminent domain is now being um sought now.

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For the temporary easement, knowing that it is far from finalized the machine, the mcleans are shocked.

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That the city would even consider using eminent domain, because the mcleans have viewed eminent.

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Domain as a remedy after negotiations have failed when, in fact, many of the terms of the project have.

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Been agreed to and the mclean's are waiting for the city to finalize whether the access road and.

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Staging area which would be the temporary easement part will be on their land according to plan, two.

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Or plan three or some other plan, but we won't know until wagon hill farm proposed the wagon hill farm.

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Access proposal is either approved or disapproved by des town of durham or perhaps others.

F

With respect to the permanent easement, contrary to the newspaper reports, the smaller triangle.

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Easement has absolutely nothing to do with the little bay water line project.

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The mclean's called this permanent easement problem to the city's attention after it.

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Received the map for plan number one, the small permanent easement is necessary because in 1957.

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The south cast iron pipe was installed outside of the 1953 easement near the shoreline. You.

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Saw this little spur that was flagged in green there's, a thought you know from the.

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Mclean's, I don't know if there's a way to recover after you know, from the air force.

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For this error, but it just throws that out there as a possibility, for you know the city.

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To recover this error in the original easement, because it's been a trespass all these years.

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Now the south cast iron pipe from the landowner's understanding is, has it has nothing to do with the.

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Installation of the new line, this new hdpe water line that will cross little bay between the north.

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And south cast iron pipes and attached to the concrete main west of the existing connections.

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Whether the north and south cast iron pipes will be rehabilitated by relining them in the.

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Future is not part of this project, but the implication of needing eminent domain for.

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This for the permanent easement implies that the mcleans have been uncooperative or unreasonable.

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They consider that implication to be insulting and ridiculous. The little bay project line has.

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Changed three times in three years, the mcleans consider themselves cooperative and reasonable.

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And they feel that they have been treated with disrespect and as an afterthought by the city.

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They also believe, if that we are here today, not for anything that the claims.

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Have done but because of instead of how the project has been handled by the city.

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I would like to touch upon some ownership corrections, because.

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First, the land owned by the mclean's has been in the family for almost 200 years. The city is aware.

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That the united states air force purchased the easement from on on the mclean property.

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In 1953 from edward and gertrude emerson, they were the current owner's grandparents at the.

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Time in 1953 they were elderly, edward had in fact died in 1955 and gertrude died in 1956.

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Prior to the 1957 construction, so there was no one there at the time of the construction to.

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Question the engineers about why they were installing mains outside of the easement.

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If the larger easement was necessary due to design changes, the emersons or their errors.

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Would have been paid for the additional shoreline used between 1953 and 1957.

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A second point of ownership that I'd like to put into the record is that there's a.

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Portsmouth, safe water advisory group produced a 76-page powerpoint presentation about the.

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History of the portsmouth water supply and on slide number five. It implied that the city took.

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Over ownership of the water main, you know from madbury, durham and newington in the 1990s. However,.

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When you look at the deeds of the registry of deeds, that conveyance happened in 1962.

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The mcleans want to point that out to you, because it is well known that the cities can.

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Need to construct this third line is due to the neglect and lack of maintenance of the water main.

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Infrastructure there are two frozen valves there. They can't shut one down and realign or rehab.

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The other one that was on the city's watch that wasn't on the u.s air air forces watch.

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One issue that the landowners hope to work out with the city that it just wants to raise now is.

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If plan number three, what they're calling us as three uh the access um being from uh wagon.

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Hill farm is approved by the department of environmental services or the town.

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They need to address the best way to keep the public from.

F

On wagon hill farm off of the mclean's land, the town of durham has been very responsive to the.

F

Continuing problem of the public, using wagon hill farm and wandering onto the mclean's land.

F

They have moved paths from the shared boundary to discourage a public from wandering off.

F

Now, with this wagon hill access farm, there's a proposed split rail of fence.

F

But that will complete the super highway. That's going to be cut through the forest is going to.

F

Negate all the efforts the town of durham, has implemented to provest, to prevent the.

F

Stress the trespass onto the mclean's property. The mcleans would like to suggest to the city a tall.

F

Solid wood gate at the boundary line in order to keep the trespassers off of their their property.

F

Another issue to raise to you is the permanent triangle. This is the for the spur that was.

F

Constructed off of the main uh easement there, if you look on the maps, there is like 30 feet.

F

To the west of that spur that the city is asking to take for the permanent easement.

F

Now this is a subdividable lot and the more an easement prohibits construction use, building.

F

It's going to decrease the value the landowners, don't think that they, the city, needs that 30 feet.

F

They're going to be suggesting, maybe 10 feet, because if you go back to the main trunk of.

F

The easement you've got all that space to access that spur in the future. So that is something that.

F

The landowners are going to be approaching the city about because they don't think that they.

F

Need that extra, like that extra land to the west, for that spur, and that is primarily the concern.

F

Is primarily driven because they would like to subdivide- or they don't want to lose the value.

F

In being able to subdivide in the future, by having property, that's burdened and can't be built upon.

F

Now you were, you had been given a plan.

F

In the presentation that shows.

F

I guess I'm one two four or five pages back: it is the army corps construction plan from 1953.

F

This is not accurate, because if you look at the red lines for the easement, it shows.

F

That the spur is in the easement, but we all saw today at the site visit that that spur.

F

Is out of the easement, so it looks like for you know these red lines need to move.

F

Up or the blue lines need to move down, just wanted to point out that that error for this.

F

The newspaper report that the mclean saw today was disturbing because the.

F

City has been, uh or is coded in here, as we just couldn't come to terms with them.

F

We need additional land to be able to do the construction we've been trying.

F

To work hard with them for a number of years, but we can't wait any longer.

F

You know thank you for listening to our comments today, because the mcleans really think that they.

F

um Have been very patient with all of the inconsistencies waiting for you know the.

F

The finalization of plans and to have eminent domain and this process insinuate that they.

F

Have not been responsive or willing to negotiate they. They very much dispute.

F

Another point I'm getting to the end. Another point that they would like to uh raise to you is.

F

They consider because the ownership by the city of these valves since 1962 had they been.

F

Exercised properly and properly maintained, they don't think that we would be here today.

F

These existing lines could have been realigned if the valves were were maintained, as it is all four.

F

Valves are frozen, inoperable and necessitating the installation of this new entirely new water.

F

Line at much inconvenience to the mclean's through an easement and across little bay.

F

We would like to remind the or bring to the counselor's attention that the mclean's.

F

Have assumed that the city has made no offer on this plan number three, because it is waiting.

F

To finalize whether it can use wagon hill farm for its access, road and staging area.

F

The mcleans are waiting for the project plans to be finalized and hope that they.

F

Can reach a resolution with a city right now? Unfortunately, plan number.

F

Three is more intrusive to their peace and quiet than prior iterations of the project.

F

Because of the trestle and all the noise, it's going to be involved in in constructing that.

F

The mcleans are hopeful that once plan number three is finalized or if whatever plan is, is.

F

Ultimately, finalized they will be able to complete their negotiations with the city right now we have.

F

A number of points in a draft mou that we believe will be added to, but we believe we believe we have.

F

A number of elements of this project pinned down, but certainly there's more to pin down once the.

F

Pro once the project is is finalized, so those are the the points we wish to raise to you. The mcleans.

F

Feel that they have been more than will more than accommodating to these changes and are not the.

F

um Unreasonable you know non-negotiators that.

F

um You know the newspaper report may be implying. Thank you. Thank you very much.

C

um We can ask questions, but let's save that to the end of the and we might ask you uh to.

C

Come back up and I'm sorry your name one more time, I didn't write it down at the beginning.

C

Marsha brown, marshall brown. Thank you. um Are there any other speakers uh tonight on this? This topic.

G

As usual, last but not least, my name is elizabeth sprouter property owner of 159 mcdonough street.

G

I also live in dover about 200 feet from the spalding turnpike. I just want to remind all of.

G

You of portsmouth's reputations with imminent domain. I have real issues with it generally.

G

Speaking since my husband's family had property in strawberry bank, which was taken by imminent domain.

G

So then they brought property in the north end, which was also taken by imminent domain, created a.

G

Big stain on the city of portsmouth. Just to remind you of that that it should only be used in really.

G

Extreme situations- and I think that this is not necessarily one of them, because one of the things.

G

That new hampshire des always asks is: is there someplace else? This could have been done and if.

G

You remember if you ever drive down the spawning turnpike, the spalding turnpike was completely.

G

Redone and widened and the engineer shared while we were out on site that the the pipe comes down.

G

Arboretum drive and then it crosses somewhere and ends up in newington at great bay. Well, wouldn't it.

G

Have been smarter when we looked at this project to have run it parallel to the spalding turnpike.

G

And then had it go up so we could have crossed on the new ruth griffin bridge, which has another name.

G

When you come the other direction that bridge with two names, but it's the old it's the old.

G

General sullivan, it's the new general sullivan bridge, so this project goes down. Arboretum drive.

G

Arboretum drive ends up at a little circle there, where you go to walmart in newington, and then it.

G

Could have crossed right on to the southbound side of the spalding turnpike. It could have.

G

Taken a left onto scammel bridge that whole area of route 4 was rebuilt if you ever done, if you've.

G

Ever done, anything ever done any commuting in that direction. That was completely redone and it could.

G

Have hooked up to the old pipe right there at wagon hill? So instead of doing that, instead of.

G

Even now remember that whole area was completely excavated, so they could add two more lanes on each.

G

Side of the spalding turnpike and route 4 has a new circle there that you got to experience today.

G

If you drove down there and they redid all of that pavement as well so had this been brought forward.

G

In 2016, in a way that the public was aware of it in a big way, maybe somebody would have thought.

G

About doing that, but that's not where we are today, so I did have some questions on site but was not.

G

Allowed to ask them according to the attorney who was there, so I want to know um if anybody has.

G

Looked at the other pipes if you've ever owned, an old car which we have and you change something on.

G

It that involves putting something new on in terms of a hose or whatever the things on the other end.

G

Of it tend to have a problem then later so my question is, is have we looked at all the rest of.

G

Those pipes that was not brought up or answered could the new pipes run through the old pipes.

G

They said there are no leaks in the old pipes, so would it be possible to run the new pipes in them.

G

um Since we all are thinking about pcbs and other chemicals that are in our water.

G

These sound, like they're, going to be some kind of plastic. Has anybody looked into.

G

That, in terms of long-term effects to people drinking that water.

G

They didn't talk about the access to newington at all. We didn't go over to that side, so I thought.

G

That was interesting, that newington wasn't even brought up, maybe because there's no easement.

G

Necessary- and that might be why that is- and um everybody here needs to understand, that this.

G

It's listed in their new hampshire des report and it's commonly known, if you know anything about.

G

Environmental stuff in this area that the sediment of which they're digging at 400 feet on each side.

G

Of the thing, at least, that's what I understood them to say is full of pcbs, toxins and furons.

G

Which are likely what's called encapsulated and that's what nature does in order to protect.

G

Itself from things just like, when you get a big pimple on your face, it gets encapsulated.

G

And when you dig in that it releases those things into the environment and what they're going to be.

G

Doing is releasing that stuff into little bay and if you look at the environmental des paperwork,.

G

You can see that there are a lot of oysters and oyster farms and as an oyster, nanny and little.

G

Harbor school does this as well. um We are growing oyster to try to preserve the oyster fields which.

G

Would have been decimated in little bay and in great bay due to too many toxins and lack of.

G

Oxygen in the water, so we really need to think about this as a whole picture, not just as simple.

G

We're going to drop a pipe in little bay and we're going to take care of it. He specifically.

G

Said we need to talk about the burdens of property owners? I think I addressed that the benefit of the.

G

Project we do need water, let's be real, everybody wants it until it's gone, they waste it, but I think.

G

That the benefit of the project may have been more beneficial and probably cheaper. If we had run it.

G

Down the spalding, turnpike and then down route, four for that half a mile or a mile to wagon.

G

Hill, where it could have crossed so there may be actual financial benefit to having done that and.

G

It may still be able to be done because they're still working on a lot of stuff on the spalding.

G

And I haven't seen the resolution. I was busy reading the new hampshire des stuff, so I don't.

G

Know what your resolution says and, as I stated before, I have a real adversity to eminent domain.

G

Unless it's a life or death situation and the fact that we need water and nobody chose to.

G

Come up with another idea other than running it through the middle of little bay really needs.

G

To be thought about before you agree to do this. Thank you very much because any other speakers.

C

Okay, I will uh close the the public hearing and I'll open up to questions and consideration.

C

Of the resolution uh counselor den thank your honor jeff four questions. If I may, for.

H

Trevor or attorney cord, um I don't know if you prefer me to let you know what they are.

H

And you could take them in the best order, or would you like me to ask them one at a time.

E

um Let's go just so I for my own mental sake. Let's just go one at a time. Okay, and this might just be.

H

Common sense to some people, but this isn't in the city of portsmouth, so are we allowed.

H

To use emma domain because we already have an easement there and it butts it.

E

um So we are permitted under rsa 38, colon 30.

E

um To to the general rule ends, I think it's low, the general rule you're right. We're only allowed.

E

To use eminent domain within the the city of portsmouth, rsa 38, colon 30, is an exception to that.

E

Rule and allows us to exercise eminent domain in order to protect our public drinking water supply.

H

And then, in the resolution itself it uses the term in the final wherefore to pursue condominate. I.

H

Can't even say it condemnation, as maybe necessary, does that have a legal significance, condemnation.

E

Sure so, um and perhaps I should have led with this counselor uh but they're, open negotiations.

E

Are still ongoing, we're statutory obligated to continue to negotiate with the property owners and.

E

That is our intent. The intent of of doing this is because we need to move our timeline quickly, as as.

E

Attorney brown very eloquently put it: this project has changed many times and we've we've worked on.

E

This project, many many individuals, have worked on this project over a period of of years and.

E

um This is something that staff and and our third-party engineers has identified as a really.

E

Critical need- and so we need to be able to move forward on this and we can't get a final permit.

E

From new hampshire des, we cannot do the public hearing that is required by des in order to get.

E

That permit, until we have all of the legal rights necessary in order to do the project in hand.

E

um So that that's really, why we're, um while we're doing this and condemnation, is the end point if.

E

We cannot successfully negotiate a resolution to these easements condemnation. Is the legal.

E

Proceeding where we um proceed with the board of tax and land appeals to condemn the property.

E

And invest title in the city through that manner, but we certainly hope we do not get to that point.

H

Answered my third question regarding, if we need the land before we get the permitting the second.

H

Half of that is, do we need the permitting to come up with a final plan, uh so there will.

E

Be ongoing work and negotiation and oversight with the department of environmental services.

E

um And they're they're also with when we identify a con after we go out for.

E

Bid we identify a contractor some of the means and methods um in order to.

E

Accomplish the the project will be left to the contractor in close consultation with des.

E

You know um under the terms of that permit, so we we won't have you know this is exactly how this.

E

Project is going to be done until that time, but it will all be done with the oversight of of des.

E

Sure- and my final question for now is: if we move forward with this, and it comes.

H

To condemnation, are we still going to seek an mou with the property owners.

E

um I'm still going to seek an mu with a property owners.

E

Well, I think, all the terms, uh all our terms would be formalized in a.

E

um In an easement at that time I mean we could still, we could still negotiate an additional.

E

Mou but I think if we were to get to that point, we would just enter the final easement document with.

E

um um With the btla, and that would not include a separate mou, thank you, council, tabor.

I

uh Thank you mayor. um I wanted to get some responses from uh our public works folks on.

I

Some of the issues attorney marcia brown raised, um don't know whether brian you want to take that or.

I

First question would be: do we need the permanent easement the 2453 feet.

I

For the existing cast iron pipes or just for the new pipe the I would, I would turn to our.

J

Consulting engineer but the the permanent easement, I believe- oh I'm sorry, brian getz, deputy director.

J

um Councilor, the permanent is because of the existing pipe right there. Yes, that the.

J

Additional permanent as the where it splits off and you have the two pipes down at the waterfront.

J

Okay, so it's not so much that we need that little triangle of land to accommodate the.

I

Where we're going to tie in the the new pipe correct and- and it's.

J

It's also, I mean there are many phases of the project as as described by al pratt,.

J

um The intent is to get the new pipe in so that we can then address the old pipe. The two old.

J

Pipes and if work needs to be done on those two pipes, then we would would have that future. That.

J

Easement already in place so- and I know, there's been some discussion back and forth about well.

J

Why not this? Why not that and- and this actually helps us in the in the long term, if, if we were.

J

To have to do something with that other pipe, and then the the issue was raised about the valves.

I

um The existing valves down in the vault are they working or are they not working or are the it's.

I

We don't know, that's a great question and uh you know uh you know many many things on the project.

J

When this first came up, um this project itself um dates back to my earliest time. In this position,.

J

Nearly 10 years now and you know, started asking questions. I have meetings with staff and and.

J

Madbury and one of our operators arthur bartlett, said what about that pipe under the bay brian.

J

And I said what do you mean he says? Well, it's been there, you know 60 years and we ought to think.

J

About you know whether those valves can work, so we actually sent staff out. We looked in the pits and.

J

Staff at the time said you want us to go down and try to turn these valves, and I said well how deep.

J

Are they and that's they're 15 feet down and it's like no don't go down and try to turn valves. Then.

J

We talk to even people that from years ago, have those valves ever been turned. No, so I mean it just.

J

These are protocols when something's installed. You know today we would say: what's the standard.

J

Operating procedure go out, operate the valve at least once a year make sure everything turns we.

J

Do that you know throughout our system for other working valves, so it was really deemed that don't.

J

Touch it when we got engineering firms involved to review this, they too said you know you don't.

J

Want to everything's working, it may be different if we had other options, but if one of those valves.

J

Were to break then we'd really have an issue so that led to all the alternatives. I know.

J

The question was, why not around so I guess I'm here I'll quickly, answer that we did investigate.

J

That we, we have alternatives that were done. The previous consultant stantec looked at that it's.

J

Quite a distance- and you know, would it go across that that bridge would go across the other bridge.

J

We are, we are concurrently working with the city of dover, on an interconnection when the pedestrian.

J

Bridge goes in a pipeline there. That would provide that redundancy, because out of that assessment,.

J

Came that realization that well maybe getting a pipe on the bridge there, but it would not be.

J

This direct service that that we have right now with the existing pipe under the bag. Okay and.

I

Something that attorney brown said that I think gets to the heart of the question of. What's the.

I

Burden on the property owner um could the 30 feet that we're looking at taking be reduced to 10.

I

Feet as as she says, or do we need all that land? uh It's been the recommendation of the engineers and.

J

Consultants that we we get that basically, after after their review of you, know what.

J

What we really need and and that so it's their recommendation, okay, um two more quick quickly,.

I

um The history of the access road, um could you briefly explain why the switch to wagon hill is.

I

That uh there was a there was a memo that uh sent to a city manager, I believe back in june. I have.

J

A copy of it back, there was reviewing my notes and that memo, I believe, was shared with council.

J

um Through this whole project, what we've we've uh we've learned and and really come to realize this.

J

This pipeline is the first map shows starts up in at the bellamy. Reseroir goes all the way to.

J

Our treatment facility in madbury works its way down all the way to newington well throughout.

J

That we have various easement properties and it's really come to light that what we have is we do.

J

Have that full run of 40 feet on the pipeline, but throughout we don't really have access and.

J

So wagon hill itself is a concern that you know should something happen on wagon hill.

J

um So you know I I if it were something similar to, I guess where you could see envision the.

J

Way, maybe eversource or other uh utility does I mean they? They go out and clear. Their easements.

J

And uh you know have kind of roadways there I mean if, if this pipeline was put in today, I I.

J

Think it might have more thought of how you're going to get permanent access along that whole.

J

Way so we're looking at long-term, not just this property but the entire length and part of when.

J

A future project al pratt has in in the works is to make sure that we have identified every point.

J

Of potential failure of the pipeline, how we could access it in the future? um If, if we had.

J

A leak or something we had to address there and, lastly, uh did you comment on the idea of.

I

Simply using the existing lines and relining them inside is that yeah we we did look at that again.

J

If they weren't working lines with the risk of you know breaking them, while we're working.

J

um That would be more of a more of an option. There's you know no, having the third line will.

J

Then allow us that potential to to go see what we can do with the the other two lines.

J

Thank you look so just to follow up on a question that councilor tabor had uh they don't.

C

Both um so we don't know what we're going to do with the the third line or the so we or we we know.

C

What we're going to do with the the third line, but what's going to happen with the the two other ones.

C

Is there a? Is there a time that we imagine that we need three lines uh under the bay? It.

J

It's the redundancy uh mayor um that if we get the valves in there, we we actually have working valves.

J

um On those two pipes, so then we can there there can be pressure tests. There can be.

J

You you can have an ability to to put cameras that actually go down the line investigate from.

J

The inside uh and we'll have that potential with with a new excuse me uh working line. I.

J

Shouldn't speak with my hands, but uh speaking of the pipe onto the bay, when we have the new.

J

24 inch line, we can close the other ones and then be able to have a better opportunity.

J

To investigate right so this might be a legal question, then what if we find that that third.

C

Or the I'm calling the third line, but the the offshoot line is not repairable uh is does not.

C

Have the like, if it's it's working now, but if we find out if we, if we get a third line in there,.

C

um That's our main hdpe line that goes in every part of our city. uh Now, if we find that after.

C

Putting in that line- and we put some cameras in those other two lines to check if they can be.

C

Rehabilitated for a redundancy point: uh what happens at that point if we find that those.

C

Lines cannot be rehabilitated for redundancy or that maybe one of them or other does not.

C

What do we do with those lines then, and would we need a permanent easement over that property for.

C

A line that we would not have an interest in at that point and that's a very good question.

J

Mayor, but I I believe not until we get to that phase of investigation, would we know so. Okay, so.

C

I guess my legal question on that is maybe for trevor. Is there a process of which we could, if.

C

There was a time in the future certain that we did not have an interest in one of the existing.

C

Lines mainly the one that we do not have the permanent easement over any longer. Could that.

C

Property or that easement be transferred back uh to the property owners at that time,.

E

uh Thank you, marin. The answer would be uh no because we we wouldn't want to. uh We wouldn't.

E

Need to remove the line we'd want to keep the easement there to keep that line in place.

E

The process of removing the line I mean it's it's partially buried. That would be not only a great.

E

Expense, but it would be um you know, environmental impact that would just not be necessary.

E

um It could just stay safely in place um yeah. I could just stay safely in place. Okay, so I guess a.

C

um A follow-up to that, then, would be. If um would it uh would it be considered a.

C

If it was no longer being used for water, would we require an easement to keep it in place.

E

We would still need an easement to keep it there. Yes, that's correct, even if water is not actively.

E

Passing through the line, the line itself is still there, whether we're using it or not.

E

um We would still need to have it have the legal right to have it there.

C

Okay, even if it's a buried piece of metal that would degrade over multiple.

C

Millennia we would need to. We would need a an easement there in order to protect its right.

C

To dissolve and become one with the earth over thousands of years, that is correct. Okay,.

C

um Even if it was disconnected and a piece of a piece of metal in that it was no longer.

C

Connected to the actual system, we would need an easement on that portion of land if we were to.

C

Abandon that that line- uh yes, yes, that's right, uh councilor bagley, uh I've got a couple legal.

K

Questions and then a couple technical questions, so I guess I'll start with the legal ones.

K

Although I was hoping to start with the technical ones up.

K

Alan brian are sitting right there yeah, let's start with the technical ones, because I may.

K

Not need to ask the legal ones uh if I get the technical answers um for we're, replacing a.

K

20 inch line with a 24 inch line and by rough calculations, the the flow in a 20 inch line.

K

Is about 12, 000 gallons per minute and in a 24 inch line is roughly 18, 000 gallons per minute.

K

Or thereabouts right and then um the head pressure would be less with the larger diameter line as.

K

Well, as I understand it, so there's um tangible benefits to going with a larger line. If we.

K

Were willing to take the risk and just reline the existing pipes we'd actually be going very much in.

K

The opposite direction as far as flow and capacity exactly okay, so so from a technical standpoint.

K

This plan that you guys have presented to us looks to be very sound and reasonable, which I would.

K

Expect but there's lots of math and processing that's gone into it now. This may be a question.

K

For brian, um I believe it was 77 of the the residential drinking water is provided currently.

K

By this pipe from madbury, correct, yeah and and we do have other um sources of water in town.

K

But if, for some reason, this pipe was was to go down, we'd probably be facing a situation where.

K

We'd be issuing bottled water to residents or or something along those lines. Certainly, uh you know.

J

Taking measures to have people reduce their water use as much as possible. Getting that word out.

J

um Again, as as al mentioned for years with the haven well down that peas, water from the.

J

Porcelain system was augmenting the peas system- that's no longer the case, so we do not that we.

J

Would have water could possibly come the other way, but so we, but combined we have three water.

J

Sources, I mean six water sources on this side of the bay with the peas and portsmouth system.

J

um Part of this interconnection with dover is is to have this redundancy amongst a.

J

Larger base of of water systems all the way up, somersworth rochester, dover and then the.

J

Only uh thing: that's not interconnected between the communities, all the way down to uh hampton.

J

And seabrook is: is this bridge segment, so you know it's a separate project, but it's all all.

J

Of this kind of melds to you know, emergency response um trying to you know optimize.

J

Redundancies and and making sure that you know we can do everything we can to keep water in the.

J

Pipes if things happen, oh thank you and it's. I guess the the general point is trying to make is.

K

If, for some reason, this line went down tomorrow, we'd be in a pretty challenging situation for as.

K

Far as water supplies, yes, a significant burden on on some residents. This is a critical. Yes, a very.

J

Much a critical need, and and and also the timing of this project as as alan, our consultants, have.

J

Have said in the information, provided we have this small window of time where we can, you know, get.

J

Out so so, if we lose another year, I mean it's not just losing two months or three months. We we have.

J

To shift a whole another year again, which we've done a couple times already so uh we're hoping to.

J

By this time, next year, actually being able to do the work, and you know we have supply.

J

um You know the supply of the pipe long lead time things like that. I mean it's. It's a very.

J

Complicated project once it gets going, but uh you know we do have that small window too, to.

J

Be able to construct it great, thank you and then it just um kind of to a attorney brown's concerns.

K

About the plans changing, I count that there are 11 different state, federal town of durham town.

K

Of newington that we are negotiating with to kind of come up with an approved project, so I I guess.

K

I would imagine- um and it's 12 if you include the property owner as well- that's a lot of different.

K

Moving parts- and you know you have to start with- you- know, finalizing the plans on one part.

K

Of the project before you can do it on the rest, and I I understand the the property's owner's.

K

Frustration but it from the outside looking in- and this looks like a very complex project with.

K

A lot of permitting processes, so I would imagine that there'd be lots of revisions to the plans.

K

And and uncertainty until we get to that final point, you're, correct and- and uh you know, changes.

J

Have happened from comments we've had you know as part of the permit process, we had to respond.

J

To comments that the concern about the the type of construction, which now has the cofferdam and.

J

Trellis construction is basically that the risk of uh you know the the sediments and a release of you.

J

Know during the construction of those sediments, so that's why the the cofferdam you know was a was a.

J

Change but again that's through the comments you get as part of the process and uh you know having.

J

Meetings we've had meetings with with durham conservation, with newington's conservation.

J

We've had ds, you know. Wetlands we've had a meeting with the oyster farmers. So we're you know a lot of.

J

A lot of back and forth best, we can, you know all right and my final technical question, which kind.

K

Of morphs into a legal question, um we're getting or we're asking for temporary easements, and I.

K

Guess the technical question is: what is the expected lifespan of the the new pipe and two.

K

um If that were to be shortened somehow or if when we reach that end of life of the pipe will we need.

K

These temporary easements again or are we not really concerned about that detail at this time.

J

Well, at this time, uh hdpe pipe, which was not something available back in the 50s, is really.

J

State of the art at the moment, it's it's got at least a 50-year, but they claim a hundred years.

J

But of course there hasn't been any hdb pipe that has been in the ground for 100 years, but.

J

To expect that life span again, this is part of why we're talking about more permanent. uh You.

J

Know and this this speaks to the pipe all the way from the reservoir to the newington booster.

J

Station that we we have protocols, we part of our our general foreman. One thing he's done is.

J

He you know al mentioned the the existing pipe. The single pipe is a is a unique pipe itself, so.

J

We actually he he bought some some repair clamps specifically for that. A few years.

J

Back and we have those on the shelf if we have a leak, but hopefully we won't have to use those. But.

J

um You know we're just everything's, you know contingency planning in that respect as well.

A

Thank you and then I just have a couple quick questions for trevor.

K

If possible, um my understanding, I think counselor denton kind of touched upon this- is.

K

um Because of the urgency of of getting this project done, which I you know from on a personal.

K

Level based on what's happened recently in the community. I think a lot of us feel that you know.

K

Our water supply is, is a high priority. We're taking action tonight to approve the eminent.

K

Domain as a in case, we need it not as a we. We have to use it once we take this action.

E

uh That's right we're starting the statutory process for for eminent domain, but we will.

E

Still continue to negotiate with the property owners and hopefully negotiate a successful.

E

um Transaction without going to any of any uh the state level, okay, all right and then I think that's.

K

That's my my final question. Thank you.

C

Yeah um part of this process is.

L

um Defined as balancing the competing interests of the burdens and social costs to the property owner.

L

And the benefits to the proposed project to the to the public has the city identified.

L

um On the city's behalf, the burdens and social costs to the owners of the property.

L

We've heard from their attorney mostly about the um lack of communication or.

L

Sense of lack of communication with changing process, but I did not hear.

L

Much about kind of the what I would identify as burdens and social costs to their property.

L

Does the city have a statement on that or um sure? Well, the the you know the burdens, I think, on the.

E

The property owner are, of course, that there's going to be work done on their property, that the.

E

City is going to be impacting their property, it will be over the course of, hopefully only.

E

One winter, but there may be restoration that we would have to do, which would be far more limited.

E

Of course than replacing the entire pipeline, so that would, of course, be a burden and the.

E

City has attempted to mitigate that burden as much as as possible by reducing the area on the.

E

Property that we'll be using by putting most of the heavy work over on the newington side as much.

E

As possible and from the city's perspective, we have are seeking a license agreement with.

E

um um The town of durham to access over wagon hill- and that would be not only for this project.

E

But access access in the future so that we can access over their property and then the permanent.

E

Easement over the subject parcel permanently so that we can get to these valves and inject them.

E

Regularly, and do that kind of ongoing maintenance that we really need to do again, while minimizing.

E

The impact to the property owners as much as as possible by by not going over their parcel.

E

And you we're also doing we're also just taking the temporary construction. Easements are seeking.

E

Excuse me seeking temporary construction easements and not um not more permanent.

E

Construction easements because we don't know what means and methods may be developed in the future.

E

um And- and we may identify ways in the future to replace a line if we need to that, would that would.

E

That would impact the property owner even less. We don't know that yet so we're just trying to take.

E

To acquire he, um the legal interest necessary to do this project and limit it to that.

L

And if I may, no just like to sorry, councilman buddy would think that we can allow this to.

C

Happen but would attorney brown like to that's what I was going to ask okay.

C

Share any other um uh impacts uh to the property owner. uh Would you like to uh the question from.

C

Councilor lombardi to attorney mccord uh was for the city to recount the uh the impacts, as he did.

C

But would attorney brown? Would you like to add to the impacts to the or the residents.

F

Just like for the record, I mean there's, obviously, the construction impact in all of the noise and.

F

Stuff like that, but what we're hearing also here, um part of the mou terms, involve like reloaming.

F

And reseeding, and I think what I'm hearing with the presentation today is that there may.

F

Be a permanent access road and if that's going to happen, then that's going to be an eyesore.

F

Within the easement right now, they've got a nice pastoral view of you know their their lawn. Their.

F

Hayfield area, so that's one, but um the mackey's mcleans were just um explaining to me that it's.

F

Tough to identify what all the impacts are when the project is still um not firmed up. You know.

F

The the access road! um You know if it's going to come back in the lelands or if it's going.

F

To you know, stay with the wagon hill, that that impacts um uh at least the immediate construction.

F

um But but we uh I guess, I will offer that um unless unless right now put the mcleans on the.

F

Spot of have you if there's other impacts that we could file a letter uh to supplement as an option.

F

Thank you anything else, uh councilman party at the moment um yeah, I guess.

L

It seems it seems important to me that, um ideally, this doesn't go to eminent domain and that I.

L

Would hope that we can find a way where you find people have more information from the city that.

L

Is satisfactory? I know that as councilor bagley pointed out, it's a project with a lot of ongoing.

L

Variables and unknowns from various permitting agencies, and um but I hope that the communication.

L

um Both from you to us and from us to you can be improved to your satisfaction.

F

Thank you for the opportunity, council, bluff and councilor cook. uh Thank you, otter. um I'd just.

M

Like to ask, I know one of the public members of the public asked about the condition of the rest.

M

Of the pipe, the pipe leading to the part that goes underwater and the pipe coming from it.

M

um Just I don't know if we have any idea of the life expectancy of that pipe or I'm not sure of.

D

The life expectancy there's a there, was a project out in madbury recently when we tapped into this.

D

Pcc pipe and we were glad to see that it was it was it looked like new when we when we we took.

D

A coupon basically out of the out of the pipe, and it looked in very good condition, and we also when.

D

Stantec was our consultant: they did some soil testing all along the pipeline route from the.

D

Treatment plant to the bay and from the bay to newington booster station just to see if the soils.

D

Were corrosive in those areas, so we have that data and nothing was very outstanding in that report.

M

um And another question, and it was mentioned, the access road. I think.

M

It was mentioned that would be an ideal if it was. You know what was originally built.

M

Because we just we're not building a nexus road here, could I can someone answer that.

D

That is not currently the plan. We want to be able to walk into the property property and be able to.

D

Turn the valves off and on operate them, so the plan is not to to make it a a road at this time.

M

Okay, thank you um and just one other point I'd like to make. um I grew up on the waterfront here.

M

In portsmouth and my my parents currently live the property with their. My father's parents had.

M

Purchased way back when um so, I am very sensitive to an old home, an old property. That's been handed.

M

Down through the family, um I can relate in a very personally how important that property.

M

Is to you and how much you value that, um and I understand you- know: property in new hampshire.

M

We've always been very strong rights and um but is not lost on me. The disruption that any.

M

Construction will cost just the knowing that that pipe is there. You know, I'm sure, is some.

M

Sort of cost just mentally, but these are not lost on me, and I just want the homeowners to know that.

C

Councilor councilor cook, thank you, your honor. um I think my first question is is a technical question.

N

So um what is the lifespan of a cast iron pipe specifically one exposed to salt water, and I'm.

N

Asking this? Because I have a lot of experience with deteriorating cast iron pipes in a home and.

N

I'm surprised it's still there. So can you right what I've I've read is yeah 50 200 years for a.

D

Cast iron pipe, but it's very dependent on what environment it's in right, so this might be closer.

D

To the 50-year mark, it's been salt, water and it's been 65 years now: okay, uh follow-up to that.

N

We're putting in place one new line, but that doesn't give us redundancy. If we find then.

N

That the cast iron pipes that they've reached the end of their lifetime or their lifespan.

N

Is is it foreseeable that we would be putting in a secondary pipe as well to give us redundancy.

D

I think we're at that point yet to look for that. One of the options that we talked about was.

D

Potentially lying these pipes, I know it's a it's a 3000 foot line so lining a pipe. That long is a.

D

Difficult challenge, so I don't know if that's will be an option yeah. I know I have experienced lining.

N

Cast iron pipe as well, I know what a challenge that is. um I can't imagine this length of pipe.

N

Being lined, but even if it were aligned and that was blown in as hard ultimately hardened plastic.

N

I think is what you end up with. um Is there? Is there a chance we would still have to replace.

N

Them because of the deterioration ultimately or the cast iron right well, it makes me think.

D

Of the other, so when this http pipe the way it's going to be laid much on the bottom, it'll be a lot.

D

More accessible, so, if there ever was damage to that pipe, we would be able to get in and repair.

D

That, unlike now, where these pipes are buried, we wouldn't be able to get to the buried portion.

D

You know if there was a break in one of these http pipes on the shore yeah. That would be an issue, but.

N

Thank you, um then. I have a question related to the property that that is under discussion.

N

For permanent easement um there was a a question about making sure that you retain subdividability.

N

In property, as far as having enough property to subdivide and still be buildable on the subdivided.

N

Property is the the property we're talking about putting in permanent easement buildable.

E

um So as as you saw when we were out there that, um and perhaps this question's better left for.

E

The the property owners, but, um as you saw when you're out there, that portion of the property.

E

That would be burdened by the new permanent easement is extremely close to the shoreline.

E

um And well within uh um you any any local or state.

E

um Wetlands buffer, um so I wouldn't think that it would be, it would be available and we are.

E

Working with an appraiser to get a value on this property and the appraiser had the same conclusion.

A

N

I'm happy to hear from uh it's brown if.

F

uh Sure this is um pre-new hampshire property, so it has the old uh load, low tide.

F

Not that a building would be placed in that shoreline protection at area, but warfing out.

F

Rights come with this property and any any you know, permitted uh docking structure could not.

F

Be placed within the expanded easement um so that that's what I was referring.

F

To and if any of these structure you know, water, water, dependent structures needed a.

F

Certain frontage than that eats into it. So that's that's the part of the concern.

N

um I just have a few more. uh My understanding is that there is some grant based funding.

N

um If I'm right, I'm helping us fund this project, is there a deadline on that funding.

N

As far as building the project.

J

Yes, uh counselor. We we have uh six hundred thousand dollars, that's earmarked uh from.

J

Representative pappas, uh there is no deadline on that, so we're grateful to have um that assistance.

J

But it'll it'll just be part of the funding that we have for the project once it once it gets going.

N

um And also, while I have you here um as far as new hampshire des goes, um do we think that if we.

N

Were able to negotiate a conclusion to to this and agreed easements with property owners would.

N

We be able to given our current timeline and that it's already november be able to permit.

N

This by next year, oh thank you counselor. I I have to turn and look at our consultants, because I al.

J

And I asked this question: often we're hoping to brett yeah. Can you please sorry you gotta for.

C

The folks watching uh britax from our uh who's, been working on the permitting side of this. For.

J

Some time now she has been in communication with the uh both regulatory agencies on this.

J

Right right- and there are a few steps we need to go through just to be able to to obtain a permit.

B

um Including a public hearing, so there are timelines associated with that, but.

B

um And it's so it's a little hard to say for sure that we'd have it in time. But we definitely know.

B

um That you know we as far in the permitting time frame. We don't have a lot of time between now and.

B

Next winter, so that's part of the urgency to try to to get the permits in place so that we.

B

Can be ready to go to construction? That's next winter, because if we don't um like it's been.

B

Mentioned then we're looking at another year that we'd have to wait to start construction.

N

Thank you. um I only have one final question. It's actually for legal.

N

um I think I heard here that we've started the negotiation process sometime in 2020, but I wanted.

N

To find out how long we've been negotiating over um this project with the property owners.

E

With the property owners, um yes, I've been involved with in the negotiations for about a.

E

A year and a half yes a year and a half so 2020., okay, thank you! Councilor cook, council, morrell.

O

So for all this, most of my questions have been answered, but um I feel like based off is something.

O

You said earlier that there's a timing issue in order for us to be able to actually go through.

O

And get the des permit, you need the rights to the property, that's right, and that means you have to.

O

Actually have signed easements in order to move that forward or could if an mou was able to be.

O

Negotiated would that be enough to then, because I get it's like the chicken and the egg? What's going.

O

To come first, so you need those rights, but they want to know all of the plans and what's finalized.

O

In order to get there so there's a bit of a timing issue, so I'm trying to sort of figure out whether.

O

Or not, there's a possibility that you could go forward with des to try to finalize and say.

O

Everything's, what you're going to do is finalized without actually having to sign easements or is.

O

That not possible well. My understanding is based on the representations of of our consultant, bert.

E

Ekstrom she's been communicating with des, but my understanding is that we do need to have.

E

The actual easement it's not in place, yes, um so then a follow-up question to that is.

O

How what if we pass this resolution this evening, I know it allows you a long process. We'd have to.

O

Go through the state would this then allow you to go and get the des and then keep negotiating with.

O

The owner, or is this not enough to even do that? No, I don't believe. That's enough. Okay, you've answered.

O

Most of my yeah, I just feel like we really have a timing issue. You really need those rights, but we.

O

Can't finalize the plan to appease the owner, so they know everything's going to happen and yeah.

O

Because you need those rights in order to get it, so I I just feel like we're caught between a rock.

O

And a hard place as far as timing goes. Thank you, one follow-up to that. It's been mentioned.

C

By attorney brown that we do not yet have the agreement of wagon hill is, can you illuminate.

C

That for us, where we are in the process of getting their acceptance of the plan, is that also.

C

Dependent upon getting access or the easements to this property, so we don't have the finalized.

E

License you know, which is something that we would like to negotiate with them and is in everyone's.

E

Interest to negotiate and finalize it is not what the city would prefer to do, but if we needed to.

E

We do have the existing rights to access over our existing easement over the the pipeline, as as you.

E

All saw when you were out there that pipeline crosses through community gardens. It crosses.

E

Through under um streams and and wet areas that would need to be crossed, and that is certainly.

E

Not in anyone's interest to cross those areas, but we do have the legal right to use it if we needed.

E

To so that's why we can show des that we can physically do the project if we need to do it. That.

E

Way, okay, so what we would go back- and forgive me- I maybe I should know this, but um the the wagon hill.

C

um Is that a is that a public uh property to the city or the town of durham, or? Is it a private.

C

Entity that we have those the town of the town of vermont, okay, so our proposition to them is.

C

We can do this over our existing easements or we can figure out a way to do this.

C

With the least impact, the pastoral landscape and the sweaters, and all the things that we would have.

C

A combined interest in wanting to mitigate the the construction and we're confident that they.

C

Would be supportive of of that um I mean we could put it in that terms if we had to really negotiate.

E

With them hard, but they haven't, they haven't given any so we don't they've, been willing to.

E

Work with us so far and we're just trying to hammer out the details of what we want to do. I.

E

Think so the town has been extremely cooperative and helpful in this process, but we're not, I guess.

C

um The attorney brown uh brought up that we haven't finalized those plans and that.

C

Is because we are working uh to mitigate things like you know whether fencing would go up or any.

C

Number of things uh in terms of the memorandum of understanding with the property owners to.

C

Align that to uh the the wagon hill uh property, not because we are at odds or looking to have.

C

uh Or or not, looking or not uh in a a a positive situation with the town of durham sure yeah, we've.

E

Presented several different options to the town, um you know different ways that we could access this.

E

And we've been working with the town to select the the path that they prefer most, that works best for.

E

Them accommodates them the best and accommodates the public use of that uh property the best, but.

E

It's been um an entirely cooperative situation and I have no reason to think that we will not.

E

Negotiate a final license agreement with with the town, okay, council denton thank your honor, so.

H

Attorney recorder, I want to flag something for you now, which I identified before someone else.

H

Identifies it, which could be a possible point of attention, so the purpose of this resolution in the.

H

Title is to acquire property for little bay water line replacement project, so this project itself.

H

However, throughout this conversation it came up that the permanent easement triangle- it's.

H

To permanently get that extra piece of pipe, that's sticking out for our benefit.

H

Going forward when the water lane replacement projects over so should that be a concern of ours.

E

uh No because that the rights that we would, um if you look at the drawing I wish you could put it.

E

Out but if you look at the easement area drawing you will see that the um temporary construction.

E

Easement, even if that triangle weren't there, the temporary construction easement would pass over.

E

That same area, we would still need that area for temporary construction and lay down. But the.

E

You know the note the number of rights that we're taking is just slightly more in that area, because.

E

We also identify. We also recognize that we need to you know, through this project and by by the.

E

Property owners, the property owners, brought it to our attention that that area that pipeline was not.

E

Secured in a permanent easement, and so um in the best interest of the city and the best interest.

E

Of this of this pipeline, if we identify that as a problem and and endeavor to fix it um and that.

E

Is still a part of this project, it wouldn't make sense. I don't think to take two separate.

E

Easements over the same area or to request two separate easements over the same area. I guess.

C

And forgive me on the uh the the layperson question. Would we need a uh eminent domain to.

C

uh To have temporary easements temporary construction, easements yeah? uh Yes, yes,.

C

Other questions from the council.

H

I do have one more honor for either al or brian.

H

um This came up from one of the speakers regarding these pipes being made of plastic and there's.

H

Far more types of payments coming from plastic these days is there any concern with these pipes.

D

Not that I know of that, it's an industry, standard they're, using hdpe pipes everywhere, even for, if you think about pfas, one of the recommended sampling.

D

Containers for for sampling for pfas is an hdpe versus an ldp though, but that's.

D

Not saying there's something else that I don't know about. Thank you.

C

Any other questions.

C

I guess the um well wait a motion, I'd like to.

C

Make a couple of statements and try to get my reasoning first, um I want to thank sandy and and.

C

Janet and and uh I'm not quite sure was edward and gertrude sandy's uh grandparents, so um they did a.

C

A really good thing for the city of fort smith, uh a little more 65 years ago. um You know lost and.

C

And some of this is the fact that our neighbors in in durham uh sought fit. You know, can you disagree.

C

With the the arma corps, engineers or the air force, probably not too easily, but sought fit.

C

To allow this uh to happen, and every time that I went to uh my uh my grandparents lived up in uh in.

C

Stratford off of bow lake, so not on bull lake, but we would drive and we would go over. The madbury.

C

uh Reservoir and every time we would drive over it, my dad uh would point out to me that this is where.

C

Portsmouth got its water and it's not until I got on the council that I thought you know it's not.

C

You know lifted out of the water and and put uh in our in our taps, but it it's it's private citizens.

C

And private property that allows that uh to happen, and I wanted to start off by just saying thank you.

C

um You know for your part in in portsmouth we've seen through rye and and and recently, and you know.

C

With pfas in in uh in peace that without uh access to clean water, we don't got much when it comes to.

C

Civilization, so uh thank you for your part in making uh the civilization of fort smith happen.

C

um And I I just wanted. uh I wanted to state that and put that on the record, that we appreciate that.

C

um We find ourselves in in a place, and I you know when I was listening to attorney brown.

C

I I wanted to say well, why do we need this? This permanent easement over the uh the portion of pipe.

C

um It it would not make sense for us to to to to remove that from a cost standpoint. Also from a.

C

um uh A environmental standpoint um in uh removing that pipe, especially across uh the bay.

C

um You know somebody that that's spent an awful lot of time. I was a rower in a previous life and.

C

I got to uh you, know, launch in durham and go out and spend a lot of time going just hopefully a.

C

Little bit faster than the gnats um on the black flies. You know, as as I passed by uh your house.

C

um It doesn't make sense to to remove that from a cost.

C

Perspective, so I do believe that we need a permanent easement uh there on there. I.

C

uh Yeah cities are tough work, uh our legal team, I've known them to be really good people.

C

um Lawyers, you know my dad was a lawyer, I'm not a lawyer. uh I have a tendency to allow us.

C

To disagree uh hopefully civilly um as as much as we can. I would um you know, disappointed here that.

C

That that time, uh the communication wasn't up to the the standard of which uh you would expect and.

C

um It's it's difficult, I think, sometimes to to align all the competing stakeholders in a.

C

Project like this, I would very much like to not have this go uh through admin domain. um I hope.

C

That we can reach a um reach, a conclusion where we are compensating you adequately and we have a.

C

A memorandum of understanding um how we're going to do this this process, but you know counselor.

C

Cook's, not the only one with you know, uh I guess experience with the caster online she's, not a.

C

Master plumber, I'm you know, I'm guessing it's because what happened in my house, our waistline.

C

Broke one day after we put up some nice wallpaper and all of a sudden we needed to have it uh need.

C

Had to replace- and you know you learn that these things have a lifespan of you know, 50 to 100 years.

C

It's very difficult for anybody up here. I think, to to look at the situation and not want to protect.

C

uh What your grandfather and grandmother saw as important enough to agree to in the first place.

C

That we want a, we want, a ability to have a clean and reliable uh source of of drinking water. So I.

C

I'll ask for um uh a uh a motion in a second I I I plan to uh to support this, not because.

C

I want to see us go through the eminent domain process, uh but because I I want to see us.

C

Find a resolution hopefully outside of of that process, and I and I hope that by seeing.

C

The the face of the city of portsmouth's government, you know that there are people that are.

C

Very empathetic to your situation and internally grateful for what your property allows us to do.

C

And I would like us to find a way that we can come to a term and realization that understands.

C

Your private property interests exist much more than an easement, they are the pastoral view and.

C

The beautiful bay that you that you get to to look at over uh and I want us to do everything.

C

In our power to protect that, and do that in a way that is civil and as as your attorney said,.

C

um Cooperative and reasonable, I think those are two terms that we try to be at least upon this.

C

Deus cooperative and and reasonable, and I would like to to see uh this process start only so.

C

That we are urgently working in a cooperative and reasonable manner to solve this issue. For both you.

C

The property owners and and the city of portsmouth, so with that probably more than three minutes, I.

C

Apologize on on that, um I would I'm looking for the um if there is any other um uh points from.

C

The council, otherwise I would move that we or I'd wait a motion uh to adopt the resolution in.

C

The form presented you're on a ride, a move that we approved the resolution regarding public necessity.

I

To acquire property for the little bay water line replacement project, as drafted.

F

Second, and is there um attorney, um is there any? uh Are there any requirements that we have.

C

To read into the record as a part of this, no, I think that's a document, the document that okay.

C

um And uh with that uh kelly, would you please uh have a roll call vote, certainly.

P

Counselor tabor, yes, counselor denton; yes, council moreau; yes, councilor bagley! Yes,.

P

Council lombardi, yes, council blaylock, yes, council cook, yes, mayor mceachron, yes,.

P

It's unanimous broker um would that I would await a motion.

C

To adjourn so moved second, uh thank you very much good night portsmouth.