City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Economic Development Commission, 6 Jan 2023

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From YouTube: 1.6.2023 Economic Development Commission

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1.6.2023 Economic Development Commission

A

Flashing means he's ready now, you're good, okay, great all right, well, good.

B

Morning, everyone and happy new year, happy 2023, hope everyone enjoyed the holidays.

B

um Eager to start our work in the new year pick up where we left off and and first called to.

B

Order, the meeting of the edc on january, 6th and first order on our agenda is approval of our.

B

Draft meeting minutes from our december meeting sean had distributed last week. I believe so. If.

B

Anyone had any catches or comments. um Please share those, otherwise I'd entertain a motion to approve.

B

So we'll move second great, all in favor all right and your post.

B

Okay thanks everybody uh first working group update, we've got our business for tension and.

B

Expansion, um update, which I'll let bob run with to start sure uh not a whole lot to update other than.

C

The uh survey is public. It's on the website city website. um Everyone here has seen it. We discussed.

C

It last month- and um we haven't- met as a group yet to discuss uh the next steps. But we'll do.

C

That, after our retreat at the end of the month, so I'm sure we'll have more feedback. After that.

C

Session, so any, if you have any other comments or suggestions or whatever beforehand were all ears.

B

Telling anything to add uh no other than if you, if anyone has not seen it, uh a press release was.

D

Put out by the city announcing the availability of that survey yeah, uh I think stephanie and.

E

Sean and I don't know whether you were part of the pub, but I thought this was a great summary.

E

Taking that massive, a lot of data breaking it down yeah, I can't take any credit for that. [Laughter].

B

So good suggestion last month, tom for a report out on that I agree, I think it.

B

Was very well done a pretty dense document good to have that information out there and.

B

We'll talk about whether presenting to the council would be an appropriate next step.

B

For this dialogue, but we can talk about that at our retreat um later this month. So next.

B

On our agenda would be our land use committee liaison, which is now bob, um I don't know, have.

B

You guys met since we had our december meeting. No, I haven't been to a meeting yet okay, so I really.

C

Have nothing to report? I can tell you that land use chair monroe is um has canceled the december.

A

And january meetings, uh waiting for the housing, navigator position to be filled and to start.

A

They won't meet again until early february is my understanding. Okay, I'm meeting with.

C

Sarah next week, she's going to brief me on it and bring me up to date so perfect.

B

Okay, great so that brings us to our council update for the month. I know quieter december than months.

B

Past and yeah, it's it's, it seems like a long time ago, but uh and I think the important things were.

F

um That we did have a final reading on a couple ordinances pertaining to.

F

um The um fire and building codes on the they were updated and to make it make them consistent.

F

With state codes, national and state codes, they they would have improved the language of them.

F

To make it a little easier to read and understand, hopefully- and I I personally haven't gotten any.

F

Feedback, but uh I guess I had one person say a contractor's site to me that it's better so.

F

um And I think we've seen that in the inspection department as well um right, the.

F

We're planning a public hearing on the mac on one line. I think um and we'll be talking about that.

F

Sherman school on the 12th um and then the council is planning a retreat in february at some point to.

F

You know review our goals, uh see where we are um make any corrections and move forward. So.

F

Great, if you have any more, I would just add that we are beginning the cip process. The.

G

Capital improvement plan process, which then will lead us into the budget. So I think if anyone here.

G

um Put in any suggestions, and also the community at large, as we whittled down.

G

And see what changes our community is looking for, if I can, the public hearing for the cip.

A

In front of the account, I'm sorry, not public hearing a work session will be january. 18Th.

B

And so for the cip? What what time frame is that covering? Is that starting fiscal year.

B

Or july of 23 through the next two years, or is it a longer term, it will be fiscal years.

A

24, which starts this july 1st through 29th, so it's a six year cycle that pushes out every year.

B

And are there any from the council's perspective, any economic development facing items that would.

B

Be helpful to have input from this group on that are up for consideration, or is that going.

B

To follow the work session that will follow the works again. It's a good question, though,.

H

Great um so the mcintyre on one nine and sherburne school on the 12th yeah for public input, great.

B

Okay, good, thank you for that, and that brings us then to ben for our collaborative update for the.

B

Month, yeah good morning, I'll be uh fairly brief, because I want to provide as much time to craig.

I

And the pha presentation as possible- um I think the big thing for us is that we are entering.

I

A strategic planning process uh that process is just getting kind of teed up now with a committee.

I

Putting um the process together and tell me for the first time next week, so that that looks like.

I

A six month, seven month process for us it'd be the first time in five years that we've gone through.

I

This exercise, so it's it's a good time for us with you know, relatively new leadership and some new.

I

Staff, members and team members um so we're excited about that process and I think that's going to.

I

Really shape how the organization develops over the next couple of years and I'm excited about.

I

Some new ideas: we've long had a 501c3 charity arm of the chamber. That's been largely dormant.

I

For the last I don't know 10 15 years um and we're really going to look at that hard and see if there.

I

Are some grant opportunities that we're missing out on through that organization and see if we.

I

Can be more impactful in the areas of workforce development and affordable housing and things like.

I

That so we're excited about that. So that's right! Okay! Thank you all right! So that's the bulk of our.

B

Standing agenda so without further ado, I'd like to welcome craig welch from the portsmouth portsmouth.

B

Housing authority, as well as your guest, but if you'd like to walk us through any high level,.

B

Updates you have on the organization and state of the state for housing, in particular an upcoming.

B

Project, I think we may be hearing about yep there's a lot going on, and so thanks for uh having.

J

I think I have to introduce myself to andrew I'm not sure that uh forgive me if we have I'm not.

I

Sure it's fun to be in a room like this, because I don't have to introduce myself to anybody else.

J

Because uh everybody's been, you know doing so much in town over the 15 years that I've been here too.

J

So uh let's see a lot of familiar faces anyway- um and I was here five years ago- um probably.

J

Had to be at the while, we were um just getting going in place um and um obviously you know, came.

J

I think we did 11 uh public presentations and edc wasn't a required one. But of course, what.

J

The work that we're doing with workforce housing is uh really impacting your your businesses. I I.

J

uh For the the business community here I have read your business retention and study report.

J

And certainly the biggest thing that everybody you know is having problems with is hiring employee.

J

You know the parts about that is housing here, so um someone excited about that. I'm actually.

J

Seeing the um if you go to the next slide, when I was putting this presentation together yesterday,.

J

I was looking at this aerial ruth bruce place since it was finished in june of 2022 and I'm I.

J

Was remembering that when we were going through the lands use process and talking about design.

J

And people really being afraid of what affordable housing design is that I used to say I'm going to.

J

Be able to see this from my bedroom and at this time of year, just as all the leaves fall off the.

J

Trees, I actually can I can't in the summertime, but but I do live kind of down in in the neighborhood.

J

Somewhat but so I'll start with the the success that we've had there. As you know, this was a huge.

J

Achievement, I think, for the city of portsmouth, there's nothing quite like it in and around the.

J

Region and we've won some awards and I think there's more coming our way this was. uh I had.

J

Actually, commissioned a study if you've been in town enough, there was a brown building that was.

J

Kind of in between the 5000 square foot building that was in between feaster and this parking lot.

J

That became roost place and I first did a little study with nia in october of 2000 um october of.

J

2014 and it was off and on for a little while with that seller. But but one thing you know to.

J

Always be reminded how long these things take, and one of the reasons why we're 20 to 30 000 units.

J

Under built in the state of new hampshire, with affordable housing with the economy that we have.

J

And with the population we have and the job growth, that's expected. One reason why the production has.

J

Been two or the production is so low is because it just takes a lot of time, and it shouldn't have to.

J

Take that much time, but this was uh I could say eight years I could say six years I usually been.

J

Saying a six-year process, as you know, in the in the six years from when we spent 16 million.

J

Dollars and uh um to build 64 units of workforce housing, we lost as many many housing units in that.

J

Time period, so, even though this is the um the the largest expansion of permanently affordable.

J

Housing in the city in almost a half century that we're still going backwards after that.

J

But uh but it is a great, it has has been a great achievement. We were very pleased and forgive me.

J

I need to introduce myself to andrew, but mark's, not that that case, mark lentz is the.

J

um Our facilities director and was the guy for the portsmouth housing authority on site.

J

Here, um uh through that construction project and a little bit more with the development so he's my.

J

um He's my guy to um to to take this from here, so mark's been with us. How long uh almost three.

J

Years, yeah so and mark was sort of forwarding this. While we had, I think, over a hundred little.

J

Projects, capital projects and we own a you- know a hundred million dollars worth of real estate value.

J

um Portfolio in the city already so.

J

um So that's what mark does so for forgive me for it's all right, you're sitting out of my.

J

um Let me saying, but um yeah so back to I said that the roost place was the largest expansion of.

J

Permanently, affordable housing, the city almost 50 years, it's the largest project of its kind.

J

um In new hampshire, outside of our two largest cities outside of manchester and nashua 64 units.

J

The largest affordable house, permanent, affordable housing- that's been built in the last decade.

J

It's a lead gold certified building. We were very pleased just to be awarded the u.s green building.

J

Council building of the year we were the highest scoring lead project in new hampshire in 2022 and.

J

So mark and I were happy to accept that award and it's a terrific credential that demonstrates our.

J

Commitment to um to energy uh and and energy efficiency we're trying to figure out, you know.

J

We're slowly figuring out how to do that with a 50 year old public housing and been touring too.

J

But we were asked rational with roost place and we want to be more aspirational next, with either.

J

A passive house or net zero type of development um open in 2022 I'll, read, read what I wrote lee.

J

Gold certified one thing that makes it very unique, is being an unwalkable urban community. You know we.

J

Think we can demonstrate we have a pretty special downtown, but you know to do um you know downtown.

J

Development, this walkable to jobs like this. What's a unique feature of how this works over.

J

500 people applied when we first started taking invitations and there's still 280 of those that.

J

Are currently on the wait list in portsmouth, so that's uh demonstrating the demand for this. The.

J

We thank ben for the building better community award that we were. We were awarded in 2022 in.

J

The visionary leadership board from the workforce housing coalition, so we've got.

J

A lot to talk about, and a lot to be really um proud about here. uh How about the next slide.

J

Just for your guys sake, 93 people now live there. 21 are kids. I was surprised at that number, but I.

J

Don't know why I didn't think otherwise, but what a terrific place to be a kid you can walk to all.

J

Three schools you'll ever go to. You know huge recreational facilities right outside uh your door,.

J

um You know world-class library, it's really. um These kids are loving it. These units are small.

J

But they're but they're loving it seven city, employees so far kevin your I.t guy that just.

J

Came in to start, this um is one of them actually, and uh I don't know where kevin was commuting from.

J

Before, but for a lot of people that are here right now, who um were working in the city and commuting.

J

um That uh it's a life changer to be here. You know six restaurants, six non-profits, uh four.

J

School department, four hotels, three salons, two grocery stores, two jewelry stores- and I.

J

Often add when I say that when I've said that list that also someone from fedex and from ups.

J

In case, you need to get get anything there overnight, we'll find a way to do it. So.

J

um So that's that's! The final census of the fully occupied uh ruthland griffin place.

J

um So um bill introduced me as uh from the pha. That's true: uh the portsmouth housing.

J

Authority was founded in 1953 by the city of portsmouth. The only connection we would.

J

We have with the city, there's there's: no, we don't get any money from the city and we're.

J

Not a city department, but the only connection we have is that the mayor appoints our board.

J

um And so, um and so that's the that's the p, that's the portsmouth housing authority and was formed.

J

Really to build the first six public housing properties in portsmouth gosling in 1959, woodbury.

J

State and pleasant in the mid 60s uh feast, her finished in 1970, in margin in 1973.. um The last.

J

One and the largest one, and so the other, but I we, I also have another board. So we also have a 501c3.

J

Non-Profit and the reason why that was created uh was be was when the tax reform act of 1996.

J

um Who created this low-income housing, tax credit financing tool for low-income housing and.

J

And so that's when we form pha housing development limits, so you will sometimes.

J

When this is going through the process, you will sometimes see that, because.

J

um That is going to be the sponsor of the development there's some inside baseball.

J

We did a community survey because I can go back um and uh I could pass out the market.

J

Study this in 2022, we commissioned a market study, a housing market study for the city of.

J

Portsmouth, so in between planning directors, the city didn't have to do one which uh there were.

J

We were going to split the cost, but I said well, no we'll pick up the tab.

J

um The community survey was done by rkg associates. They spent a lot of time reviewing.

J

Data and talking to people and developers and stuff in in town. But one of the great and you.

J

Know a lot of data- that's in there and part of it was a community survey. He said well, it's really.

J

Hard to do community surveys, you know you gotta it's hard to get people to respond. I said trust.

J

Me this is the city of portsmouth trust me that well, and we had 600 responses to that and it was.

J

Just the city of ports, but the rockingham county planning commission is also doing their own study.

J

So we did this just for the city of portsmouth and I'll go through some of those key key findings, but.

J

One thing that is a big part of the conversation is oftentimes: what's workforce housing and how.

J

Much do we need and how these things go with government or with any anything, is that you.

J

Keep going back, you know you have these, um these conversations that are important, but.

J

um But I just like to say that we have over legislated that we're not going to re-legislate.

J

That I can show you articles from the pha that talks about the lack of affordable housing in the.

J

70S and 80s, it's been a problem for decades. It's getting worse uh right now, but this is complicated.

J

Enough to build this stuff and to go through that kind of process and all the communicating that.

J

That we want to do so. I just like to say we have a workforce, housing problem. We don't need to talk.

J

About anymore, we can show you data which all kinds of stuff, just in the city of portsmouth, going from.

J

The bottom of the 2008 master plan was a lot about it. There was a 2008 blue ribbon. Clinician formed.

J

On housing, this is a 2017, our own strategic plan, the portsmouth listen study circle, which happened.

J

Around the same time, talks about the importance of the 2016 blue ribbon commission that formed.

J

The housing policy for the city, you were I used to cite when I talked about this. Your 2017 report.

J

That was in my stump speech all the time, as you know, uh talking about this need this housing needs.

J

Assessment that I just passed around and it's also a really big part of the 2025 master plan. So it's.

J

A very well documented issue: it was probably the biggest issue in this last campaign. um I think.

J

And uh so there is a workforce, housing problem and it's well documented in the city go ahead.

J

um The one of the main findings of the the market study are as follows: most of the people are or 40.

J

Percent of the people who live in portsmouth now are cost burdened. That's that's defined as.

J

People who are um paying 30 percent more of their income on rent 15 percent are extremely so they're.

J

Extremely cost burdened and it doesn't leave a lot of disposable income when you're low low income.

J

Already and paying that kind of so there's a when people talk about new, affordable housing, I'm going.

J

To talk about people coming into the city, and what I want to tell you is that there's a lot of people.

J

Now that are feeling this problem and interested in this, and, of course, even if you do commute.

J

In the city, the your um your cost um is way up, because it's getting more expensive to commute.

J

There's a supply and demand myth. According to the report, we've often it's conventional wisdom.

J

That there's supply and demand and if you just make housing development, easier, multi-family.

J

Housing development easier than you're going to have more housing and the more housing you have.

J

um The more demand- and so it's gonna, the rents, are going to be affordable. That's a complete.

J

Myth that doesn't happen. The 2000 housing units that the private market has built over the last.

J

10 years or eight years in portsmouth has not moved the needle at all and is not likely to.

J

Move the needle another reason why the portsmouth housing authority is a non-profit local, non-profit.

J

Real estate developer is the is it's important to support us and other non-profit housing developers.

J

Because we're the only ones that will cap rents to keep it permanently affordable. All this other.

J

Housing is not creating any affordable housing, even though, um even though that's what often says.

J

Go ahead. Income ranges study basically says that half of the demand is going to be for people who.

J

Are at or below, 80 percent of the area, median income using low-income housing, tax credits, 80.

J

Percent is actually the maximum allowed with a tax credit um project, so we can help all.

J

Of those majority of the survey respondents cited workforce housing, low-income housing.

J

Housing for people experiencing homelessness is very important to um to deal with in the city.

J

Employment sectors, the people in the survey talked about retail hospitality, food service.

J

Creative economy, municipal employees and first responders as the people that we would most likely.

J

um Want to have in the in the community and are having a challenge living here.

J

Some evidence that household size is increasing in portsmouth, despite all these two bedrooms, that.

J

Have been built in the rental market, but house housing household size isn't is increasing and.

J

That's going to make the case for the next thing we build to have some um some more three-bedroom.

J

Units private markets not doing that. So that's what you know the data has that there's a reason.

J

For that, but then anecdotally, the three bedrooms at west end yards ended up. A few of them ended up.

J

Going first, and so, with the new workforce, housing project up in york, all the three.

J

Bedrooms went first, so that's what we're going to do? Accessibility is a huge thing in portsmouth, 60.

J

Of our housing stock or the majority of our our housing stock was built before 1960, and I.

J

Get calls all the time hi craig mom fell she's at edgewood center in rehab and she's going to come.

J

Home soon, and do you have any apartments because she can't get up to her bedroom in her house.

J

um Anymore and so a lot of accessibility issues in older buildings. uh So a big demand for that.

J

Not just for people who are in wheelchairs and and need that, but uh I tell my staff if.

J

You want to see what it's like being an elderly person trying to get around just start shuffling.

J

Everywhere and it's a totally different world when you, you feel all kinds of stuff when you.

J

Shop, we have a lot of people that that uh that shuffle and could use one story living. You know.

J

um And there's also some federal loans and some restrictions on properties in portsmouth. Now.

J

That are affordable, housing properties that are not owned by us, um osprey and keith house for.

J

Instance, the the federal requirements on those expire after the these contracts are usually.

J

20-Year contracts so in portsmouth, before 2030 there'll be 489, affordable units that are going.

J

To be much more advantages, they advantages for that owner to turn into market rate housing.

J

When those expire all right, there's no incentive for that owner to keep them. At that rate, correct.

J

um The they could get a new section, 8 voucher or renew, that voucher.

J

um And um yeah I mean there's, there's still possibilities in that and I don't know what.

J

Kind of instrument that the city could use, um you know how much enabling I haven't looked into it.

J

Enough how much enabling the legislation there is to be able to do some kind of property tax.

J

um Break um um for these things as a way to support it and preserve it because again it's a.

J

Six years and 16 million dollars to build 64 units so.

J

You've got a new channel, so the mayor started talking about the future of the sherburne school.

J

It was a part of the the dialogue. I don't know how long people have been talking about the fact that.

J

um That that building has outlived its with with the kind of deferred maintenance it has.

J

um It's that's not going to make economic sense to continue that and, of course, all.

J

Of a sudden owning the community campus made that a no-brainer and uh um so we're talking.

J

About now the disposition of that site and turning it into housing, just like we've done.

J

um Before with city-owned property uh with the atlantic heights school with its 30 units, the.

J

Senior housing lafayette school, our smallest, where there's 10 units of senior housing in.

J

The connors cottage next door, which is 20 units of senior housing, so it's kind of in our sweet.

J

Spot to do something like this currently owned by the city of portsmouth, so there's.

J

Some disposition process, that is, that need to be gone through, but as a site, it's a fabulous.

J

Site it's a little loud, but otherwise it's it's easy to get on and off the highways as little.

J

Traffic impact that anything could really have, I mean any other property. I could see.

J

If people living close to where they work is um very important, the way we see it, and so this would.

J

Actually be the closest housing to peas and there is a bike path through pan away manner. That goes.

J

Right to c j trailways, which is a direct boston to new york um or otherwise, as I said and coast.

J

Bus and there's some huge employers out there too. As you know, highliner northeast credit union, the.

J

Hospital um all of those what's in there so right now um I've I've been authorized to spend 150.

J

000 on due diligence activities and we're working very fast to do that because.

J

um Primarily because there's a debt, I can talk about the deadline afterwards, but the um we have.

J

Just hired an architect just last week and kicked off that relationship this wednesday and the first.

J

Part of what they're going to do is do a master plan for the site that we hope to have back by.

J

The end of february and we're doing that at the city is not doing any of this isn't required, isn't.

J

Asked us, but when the idea of putting affordable housing out there, we said well we'll we'll give.

J

Us a right entry and we'll start to study it and come up just like the city would if the city were.

J

Developing it but we're doing that on our dime and so there's a lot to talk about. And if we want.

J

To move quickly, we've got to make some decisions about the program: the the city. How many units is.

J

What people mostly ask and how it will work, how a project would be financed and work in phases and.

J

Like I said before, the one of the findings in your report was.

J

Finding employees so a housing issue that slide's kind of about to order.

J

Ruth blue and griffin place was awarded a very scarce resource in a low-income housing.

J

Tax credits that are distributed annually that brought eight million dollars in equity into.

J

Housing investment in the city of portsmouth, so that's a that was a big win just to start.

J

These tax credits are hard to get, though they're hard to get and we'd like to the.

J

Date that we have in mind is august of 2023 when the next round of tax credit applications are due.

J

Threshold criteria for winning these tax credits is that we have permits. That's a.

J

Really fast thing to do in portsmouth, but at the same time one thing we want to prove.

J

To everybody is that this doesn't have to take forever. We can be thoughtful and move it along.

J

But there's a you know: land use a lot a lot to do, but we could uh we could do it and right now.

J

We're focused on getting that done by august 2023. If you look at the calendar and mark the.

J

Days, there's a lot that has to happen in order for us to pull that off. Otherwise it will be.

J

Another year before we could start anything out here [music] and uh all right go to the next one.

J

um So summary we're a local non-profit, developer and owner we build housing. We have 668 units of.

J

Housing in the city, with the largest landlord by a long shot and all of our housing, is permanently.

J

Affordable uh supports a diverse economy. I can talk about how tax credits work forever.

J

um And uh high land costs in portsmouth obviously is a big thing, and now we've.

J

Got an opportunity with some land that we already own doesn't have.

J

Any dead on uh to do something here. I think that was the end.

B

Quite fantastic yeah! No thank you! Craig! You covered an incredible amount of ground there.

B

uh Well done, I think, lots to digest and talk about, but open it up to the group for specific questions.

B

Either, on kind of the intro and workforce housing in general or on the project- and I wasn't looking.

J

At my watch, so forgive me if I went way longer than the 15 minutes perfect. I have two questions.

A

um Putting you on the spot a little bit craig and mark um doing the math that was 250 000 a unit.

A

For roots place, is that I'm, I guess I'm pulling people in the room, including david chode, is that.

A

Of the going rate was that a? How did you find that 250.

A

250 000 per unit cost. Well, it's all uh you know it's relative. The only person.

J

You know david's been following this stuff since the what early 20s david.

K

1820S all right, um I used to work for david, so we go. We go way back and you know, and he has been.

J

um Working on this issue for a long time, and then your your second was oh, the question was: how does.

A

That fall in line with other per unit development costs that have taken place recently. I don't know.

J

What the current limit is at the new hampshire housing finance authority, but when they give tax.

J

Credits it there is a cap on tdc total development cost. um So that was um um that's a budget that.

J

We're always trying to hit this is one reason why the sherburne school building itself will be.

J

Not impossible, but really difficult to turn into housing, that building.

J

That part of it so uh it I think it's amazing that actually that.

J

Building itself costs 12 million bucks to build it's a high quality building, but.

A

Next question: if I can and my second of two questions the the issue when the building.

A

Was permitted was no parking? Have you found that the residents need or are working through the no.

A

Parking that was a huge thing. In fact, the chamber, you know val roshan wrote one of our first letters.

J

Of support says I, you know, we support this 100, but I'm going to get in trouble because people, because.

J

Parking um and because we, you know it's a choice that communities have to make, uh are you going to.

J

Still, you know continue to subsidize car ownership in 2023 and build a lot of parking uh in town.

J

um The even in the survey there were several people that said about portsmouth, there's too much.

J

Traffic and not enough parking well, if you build more parking, there's going to be more traffic.

J

If you want more people driving through the middle of the city, then build more parking, lots.

J

um And, uh and you know, building affordable housing is hard and density is a huge deal.

J

And it costs a lot of money. We were originally going to put 2 florists.

J

Apart we're like, are we really going to spend two million dollars for 25 cars or.

J

Are we going to build 18 housing units on that same footprint, so plus the fact that.

J

We just spent 25 million dollars, building a 600 car garage in portsmouth and I sure wish we had.

J

25 million dollars to leverage housing, we would be way ahead of the game. If that were the case,.

J

Great tom just follow up on karen's question craig.

E

When you set your criteria for selecting the applicants for the griffin house, do you.

E

Separate from their income, do you take into consideration whether they work downtown and would.

E

We work somewhere, you know where they would have to have a car. Is that actually part of.

E

The defined criteria the um it was, we didn't think it really could happen because of some.

J

How fair housing rules work? Currently we have a. We have preferences at the fort.

J

Smith, housing authority of shrimp, all of our properties for um for being elderly, disabled.

J

um To either being elderly or disabled, you've got some points for being a veteran, but the.

J

Biggest point category is um that you are you live in the city of portsmouth.

J

That they don't approve that kind of stuff anymore because of disparate impact rules. But.

J

um We did get a attorney's opinion, because this is what we were trying to do right. So we did get.

J

A legal opinion in new hampshire housing finance authority did approve us to give a preference.

J

To people that work in portsmouth not live in portsmouth, because that's what we're trying to do.

J

um And that's why so many people who work downtown? I just talked to a kid adam over.

J

There, the other day he said, I'm so happy. I was able to sell my car the cost of that car.

J

I walked to hannaford to work, and I just love it. You know, and the 41 bus starts stops right outside.

J

um And just to correct, we didn't have no parking, but we did have to ask for a lot.

J

Of parking relief, a conditioned use permit for a lot of parking relief. So it's under.

J

um It's just under that threshold in order to do it um side anecdote on why um you know policy.

J

Around this kind of stuff has other consequences. The hallways in ruth's place are a little bit.

J

Wider than they need to be because we had to make the units a little bit smaller in order for them.

J

To count as micro units in the city oregon, so how silly is that right it wasn't? It wasn't.

J

Much but you know, there's consequences to trying to put in public policy for this kind of stuff.

B

Good ben correct: could you uh share a little bit about the partnership with great bay community.

I

College in griffin place and some of the tuition um there's a discount. I understand on rent or.

I

Tuition if they're a great big community college student right, the um we have now been uh awarded.

J

uh 250 000 grant from the federal home loan bank of boston um to do an education incentive program.

J

Kind of along with the workforce housing theme that we've now got some funding and we would.

J

Love to see how it ends up going I'll have to give a rent reduction of 100 or 200 a month. If you're.

J

Enrolled in some kind of education and certificate program, um cosmetology school, a four-year program.

J

Whatever it is, and, of course great bay is going to be a great partner uh in doing that and we'll have.

J

Some stuff that'll actually be going on on the property uh with great bay councilors, and that.

J

Kind of stuff trying to get people enrolled. The the first ask around there was about 50 percent.

J

uh You know I this would be successful if we had five people end up enrolling, that great bay.

J

um Or or it incentivizes them to go back to work and uh build assets um and.

J

Answer your question: yeah! Yes, okay, yeah! So we're about to announce that and be able.

J

To start offering that in january and it's uh brand new doing something like that is brand new.

J

It's great craig: can you differentiate for us and define a little bit difference between the.

K

Workforce housing component like roots place, and what you're, what you're, considering at sherburne.

K

School versus the rest of your housing stock relative to the income levels and.

K

Whom actually or sides on the properties right? That's a great question. We answered.

J

um um I actually really believe that defining it um slows the conversation down. Is it um well? This.

J

Is low income housing, not workforce housing, or this is workforce housing, not uh section 8 housing.

J

um The it depends on those the the the people's definitions around that um are all over the place.

J

What is regulated on a federal level is the income levels. People are often surprised to be.

J

Qualified for public housing, it's 80 percent. You need to make under 80 percent of the area median.

J

Income and that are other tax credit properties are actually lower than that. You have to make.

J

Under 60 percent of the area median income, because people have an idea of what public housing is and.

J

The fact is that um almost 85 percent of them are under 30 percent of the area median income. They.

J

Are the lowest income people in our community? So so, but you can go up to you. Can you can go up to.

J

Specifically, hud rochester, fair market rent is up to 80 it's uh 62 600 in order to get into ruth's.

J

Place as an individual, you had to make less than that, so people are kind of surprised that there's.

J

People have this kind of income, but that's where that's where they qualify and there's a lot of.

J

People in that category, who can't live right or have a lot of trouble living in portsmouth.

J

It doesn't go up a lot for a two-person family 71 000 for a two-person family is the maximum.

J

Income limit in new hampshire um and and then we actually have three different bands and the rents.

J

Are all based on paying 30 percent of your income in rent below what's considered uh cost burdened.

J

And there's a bunch of little tricks around how all that works, but it's basically three bands.

J

um We're supposed we decided to go under 70, but we could go up to a maximum of eighty percent.

J

um 60 and then um under 30 or three different, three different rents and you think about the.

K

Same kind of uh kind of spread at the sherman school, uh the the sherburne school, the program.

J

We're envisioning now and we've and has demand for his workforce housing. A lot of people ask for age.

J

Restricted everything um and that's tougher with tax credits plus the fact that I think.

J

It was more successful with mixed communities um rather than having exclusive senior housing. What.

J

The demand is for is housing, that's accessible, but not necessarily. um Well, as you said, you know.

J

um That answer your question. I did yeah, that's good, that's it.

B

That's it tell them. You had a follow-up, another question. uh So you're you open your remarks.

E

By saying that, uh during the six to eight years that it took to put up the griffin house that the.

E

City lost, more housing, more affordable housing than is in that building is that when, when you.

E

Calculated that did you simply do that, based upon a survey of what rents we're going for, or is that.

E

Solely related to housing, that's under some type of a subsidy program going offline right, two.

J

Different things, but the biggest example of what specifically I was talking about, is, what's called.

J

These expiring use properties, rockland street, the portsmouth apartments on the corner of rockland.

J

Street and miller is a 48 unit building that had one of these section. Eight, these 20-year section.

J

8 contracts um and it was ending that contract was ending, the owner actually decided to sell the.

J

Building um we tried to buy the building, um but um we got somebody with a 1031 exchange um and a ton.

J

Of cash they just came in and paid it. We couldn't do that um and uh and arguably overpaid, but.

J

um But then that owner did not want to renew the section 8 contract. So in 60 days we lost 48 units.

J

um As another example, the story that you hear over and over again is that you know have this.

J

Place to rent the mom died. Now they want to sell the property. The people that just bought.

J

The property want to raise my rent, 600 bucks a month. um That's the story. You hear all the.

J

Time, that's the people who are living in ruth's place and really thankful, but.

J

So that's part of it too, when things are condoed as we gentrify we're losing naturally.

J

Occurring, affordable housing as well that I don't have the data on, but these expirings.

D

Good question practically practically speaking: if money weren't an issue, wouldn't that be.

D

Lovely, what what could you? What could you do in the area where I mean you read all.

D

The time they were constrained by land cost, where constrained by you know available space buildings.

D

Etc, you know if 50 million or 100 million dollars, just kind of went thump.

D

Outside the door at pha at some point, what could you practically do in the next five to ten years.

J

um Well, I worked for david show for a while, so I see opportunities everywhere. You know I.

J

I see development opportunities everywhere um because it was doing commercial, real estate.

J

But uh um one big restriction on the tax credit program is really unfortunate. New hampshire is.

J

That the sweet spot for building tax credit, housing or workforce housing is a 40 unit.

J

Building most of the stuff that gets built is in and around 40 units because of how that tax credit.

J

Financing works, so this is what we're trying to deal with now is the is the constraint of.

J

The tax credits to do like we could do easily 80 units at sherburne school in 240 unit phases, but.

J

But the site, I think, can hold 160 units we're in a housing crisis. You have one piece of land that.

J

Or a piece of land that the city owns and owns outright. So just like, we kept saying downtown.

J

Over and over again, let's go get as many units as as we can and still have a thoughtfully divined.

J

um Site so there's a financial there's, a constraint on the money side too. There is some.

J

Other ways to do it with joint ventures, there's two different kinds of tax credits that we could.

J

Put together so there is a way to do something all in one phase: uh that's a bigger project, but.

J

um Just the way we've we, that that structure we do get constrained and.

J

um And how many could we build? We've studied some other city-owned land.

J

um In a couple different areas of the city, the one I think that would be easiest to develop would.

J

Be atlantic heights on bedford way, there's a big field in front of the atlantic heights school, not.

J

A big field, but enough to um you know if it were going to be senior housing, we could put another 40.

J

Units of senior housing like that out there again, the problem with the tax credits is that you can't.

J

You're not eligible for new tax credits, and this is a big part of the sherburne thing too, about.

J

We're trying to do but um you're not eligible for the tax credits until you lease up a project that.

J

You've already built right, so if we don't get sherburne done, we want to pivot to something else.

J

um That has that kind of uh that kind of consequences.

B

Up craig, most of your uh stock housing stock is what 30, 40 years old, yeah 50 50. yeah. um What are.

C

What are some of the opportunities to redevelop or reimagine some of the existing projects that.

C

You have whether it's uh that's um meadows or yeah. That's a great great um thought. There is a.

J

New tool with hud that I could go and explain, but not worth it, but that would allow that would give.

J

Us title to these properties unencumbered by hud. That would also give the opportunity to refinance.

J

Redevelop or reposition any of our properties, the one you know the first, when we first asked that.

J

Question was like we own a parking lot downtown. You know, let's do something there. That's amazing.

J

But we also with a workforce: housing coalition did a charette for gosling meadows. If we really.

J

Wanted to and we pushed that site, it's 11 acres of land also close to peas and walkable to thousands.

J

Of jobs, some people will say, that's the that's a terrible use for that property. It's on an island.

J

But after that charette we believe that we could double the amount of units out there. It's 124.

J

Family units built in 1959 and redeveloped could be another project, and, and that could be next.

J

That that, actually, that planning for that will be contemporaneous with sherburne, is what I expect.

B

Assistant mary had a question yeah. um We saw some some, I would say a small amount.

G

Of community resistance, when we look at ruth griffin places that something you.

G

Anticipate for sherburne school and also how can supporters, whether that be city city level, people.

G

On commissions, or just overall community support help you move along this process. Yeah yeah the.

J

The uh the other thing I'd like to say when I talk about this and when I talk about housing.

J

Is that all the people that like to sit in a room and talk about workforce housing, the importance.

J

Of it I mean so the the film that they showed, we there's a lot of people that come to come.

J

To something like that, but when it's time to show up you've got to show up, you know.

J

You've got to show up and you've got to have some advocates that get other people to to to show up.

J

um Which we did, which we turned out last time I mean. Obviously we were successful.

J

um And uh and the opposition, wasn't it wasn't what's a crime is that it took two people.

J

um A few hundred dollars to stop a project and costed another million.

J

Bucks, uh a non-profit housing developer cost a million bucks. uh The rents are all higher.

J

um Because we lost a year and a half in court with something that was completely.

J

Frivolous so anything can go wrong, um but I think it has incredibly low traffic impact.

J

And I'll knock on all the doors I mean I'll. Do the work to make sure that people.

J

Informed I actually met with one of the butters yesterday and talked to them about what we're.

J

um What we're doing um I spoke with bob lister. This is the lister academy and spoke with bob.

J

Lister- and he confirmed he said I don't think you're going to have any problem at all. We've.

J

Been talking about this, it's been in the newspaper people kind of expected, the neighbors kind of.

J

Expected and uh you know what kind of ink, but the property will only get better, especially if it's a.

J

Mixed use, especially if the school stays in some kind of community use or some kind of non-profit.

J

Which is a important consideration? I actually walked through the property with two non-profits.

J

um Yesterday, so it could stay as that, as as said so, it'll be cool, you know, but who knows.

J

Who knows when one person or two people can do that, even though something like your downtown.

J

Has an overwhelming amount of support um that can still happen, but that's a that's a side so.

J

That's important a letter. You know a letter from the chamber was important and we had a bunch of.

J

Other ones, but it was too hard to do that you know, and so that's what we'll we'll want to do.

J

um There, to the extent that you have any official governance, um either as an advisory opinion or or.

J

A straight up when it comes to appropriating money through the cip or using some of this arpa money.

J

One thing about a phased project, obviously, is that the first phase is really expensive, because all of.

J

The infrastructure that bites the roads of water, the sewer the storm water all has to be put in on.

J

That first phase, of course, the city contributing to especially water sewer, is not that hard, because.

J

It's enterprise fund and that doesn't make a difference, but a cip project. We did request cip.

J

Funding for this now we had a little bit downtown and when I say a little bit, you know this was a 16.

J

Million dollar project- and I think cip money was 300 000 of that, but these deals are skinny uh and.

J

That would that would help, so if that becomes a part, if at all you influence that capital.

J

um Budgeting process, um then that's important as well or advocating for for marpa money.

J

um So that could be a part of what you do too. Thank you.

B

Great anyone else I know you know I just want to say you know: we've been I've been advocating for.

K

This for several years, I think this is a great opportunity for us to leverage the opera funds.

K

That we have, to the extent that there's still availability and to and to be able to leverage.

K

It into more workforce housing- and you know, as I've said right, I I understand from city manager.

K

You know: we've used some of it to to reduce um the tax burdens on everyone, but the end of.

K

The day you know we're going to look back and say: what do we do with that? 12 million dollars.

K

Right what happened with that? 12 million bucks. We deferred some taxes. We did some okay, here's.

K

An opportunity for us to leverage that and do something really meaningful and create a legacy so.

K

A record just a quick jacob, just a quick comment. I probably I lived out on like a.

H

Block from from market square, so um I know how awesome it is to live in town. I just think you.

H

Did a beautiful job with that a full housing project I mean, if there's there's more projects.

H

Like that down the line, like that's fantastic, so just kind of wanted to say that, thank you.

J

It's been fun being us in towns. Yes, we opened this yeah, I mean it's. I hear that I walk past it. I walk.

H

I walk through the little urban and walkway to get to my car and it's it's really nicely done.

J

Yeah, it annoys my wife. Actually thanks me all I do and you can't turn turn around. You know.

J

Without that, so I really really appreciate it: okay, yeah I'll. Let go jacob's comments. I look out at.

B

The project all day, long from my office window, so that's right, nice nicely done just had a question.

B

In terms of the phasing or the potential of the sherburne site, is that something do you need to.

B

Have that spelled out, or do you just need phase one of whatever units you feel like you'd be able.

B

To support when you go to apply for the credits in the 23 round, if you get that far right right.

J

The we want to know that up front we've got to make some decisions um because we're trying to.

J

Move this along, so the first step is a master plan so we'll take even if there's phases we'd like to.

J

Have a site plan there's a city process. You know that that could include a lot of things um so.

B

So you'll have an idea at the outset on what the ultimate full composition could.

B

Be even if that's going to happen right over a sequence of years because of the limitations.

B

On applying for the next right rounds until you're released, I mean it's most efficient.

J

To build a single building with a double stack corridor um and something you know, I mean less.

J

Than yards looks the way it does, and that's you know, that's how you can do this is with a box.

J

um You know I don't get paid extra for this stuff, it's like I, I uh it's just fun for me, but this has.

J

To be it has to be interesting, you know we can do something. I think we can do something really.

J

Interesting on energy, but not a lot of capital sources in that and then do you know we talked.

J

We talked about sort of a village concept um with some town homes as a part of it, and really make it.

J

um Its own little village, five acres- pretty uh you know it's not huge, but to do housing and.

J

You know something in the whatever ends up being the use of the sherburne school itself really has.

J

The potential to tie it all together- and you know, talk about food as a as a component of that as a.

J

Big component of that is really consistent um with uh with what we're doing you know,.

J

Great anyone else, sorry, uh you tossed around a few numbers, and I understand that you we.

G

Have to go through the you have to go through your master plan and kind of look. But what, if you had to pick a dream, sweet spot number for the amount of units you would you would hope for that.

G

Location, what would it be yeah we haven't studied it a whole lot we did have, um we did have. We went.

J

Out to five architects of great architects and some did a little- you know, preview of a site.

J

Plan one one of them was 180 units um and there was a lot of paving on that site with 180 units.

J

um And so we're really guessing right now, but my my current wish would be to go with more density.

J

um You know 80 units becomes um easy to do on the financing side, but with this opportunity, why do 80.

J

There's a way you know, I mean, theoretically, why go low when you, why go low, I mean what we don't.

J

Have any, but why, if you're in a housing crisis, why not build a 10-story building.

J

um And uh we don't have any 10-story buildings. Oh it's a 10-story building but think about.

J

It like strike that from there out in that location, um that will not happen by the way.

J

um That uh building code does change after five units and it's really stops.

J

um Making sense so, but I just like to point point that out: that's not what we're envisioning.

J

Quick question: are you envisioning um multiple buildings in that site or it's a single building.

F

Yeah the I mean we we're contemplating everything right now, um but um I would say: 90 percent.

J

Sure that this will be more than one building, okay and maybe see yeah yeah, maybe.

J

You know maybe some some town homes, you know, there's a lot of dignity with having your own.

J

Door and uh and to do something that uh that is dignified. You know the um we just like downtown.

J

We we wanted to appeal to people with choice um and uh and do something you know, do something. Nice.

J

It's well done, yeah. I say a lot of these things by the way and we don't really have the money to do.

J

To do a lot of this, but part of what we do is just go to try to find the stuff to do to do. Energy.

J

um And to kind of put itself together work with the city. I know.

G

um One of the things the land use committee is looking at is right. Now we would not be allowed.

G

To build a development that kind of resembles atlantic heights that has that community feel.

G

Still smaller units, most of them under 650 square feet, and so I know that it's it's on.

G

The top of the mine of the city, too, of how we can make sure that our policies really do match.

G

In our in our land, use regulations really do match. You know what what we, what we say we want.

G

um And what we can allow you to develop or allow a non-profit developer to do.

J

One one thing we're anticipating: we actually haven't been meeting later to talk about.

J

Governance process, but what will happen? Do we need to do anything with the zone? It's in a municipal.

J

Zone which is kind of a wild card, but uh but we need, you know, counsel on that and there's if you.

J

Do want to change the zone and that's important um either creating a new zone doing some kind of.

J

Overlay district or just changing the number the allowed uses in a municipal zone, um those things.

J

Can take a lot of time so showing up when we when, when, um when it's time, to make a decision.

J

Like that showing up and supporting the project when there's an opportunity in a public hearing.

J

um Of opportunity, with a planning board or a zoning board, to show up and support the project.

B

And did you have a question sorry again: okay,.

B

Nothing further from the group. I know we've got public comment next.

B

I do want to touch on our retreat and our next meeting session, but.

B

Looks like david may have had comments that he wanted to make or bring to us.

A

He won't mind craig good, to see you again as always um a couple. A couple of questions.

L

And then I'm going to make a comment and don't take this the wrong way craig, but.

L

um Are you, are you paying the city for the property.

J

um The uh the city hasn't requested any payment, any money for the property and I think the what.

J

We're anticipating is that the city do give us and does the housing authority do a payment in lieu of.

L

Taxes on any of its properties- yes, we do the we, depending on whether it's public public housing.

J

um Or our tax credit housing, what we pay is defined in in state statute, uh the formula and.

J

So we do pay taxes last year um or we we do what's called a payment in lieu of tax right so last year,.

J

We paid some four hundred thousand dollars to the city, which is way lower uh or lower than what we.

J

Would pay as a private owner, but that's allowed to understand so and my next question is really to.

L

The two counselors that are on on the- why wouldn't the city do do a request for proposals for this.

L

Property from non-profit and for-profit workforce housing developers and give them an opportunity.

L

To buy the pro, they would buy the property we're doing a project in epping with a housing.

L

Partnership right now, where they're paying about 15 000 a unit for 60 units. So you know there's.

L

Money being left on the table, am I and you know, I'm not disputing the good work that you guys do.

L

I'm just pointing out the obvious and they pay a payment move taxes which may be equivalent.

L

To what you're doing or maybe more or less I don't know what it is, but it just seems like.

L

You're, not you're, not a city agency. You know why is it fair to give you that project versus the.

L

Housing, partnership or great bridge properties or investor, or somebody else that would have an.

L

Opportunity to bid on it, so that's just a question for the council and the horse maybe already go to.

L

The barn, the thing I want to say um karen, this is more to you: sean sits on the comprehensive.

L

Economic development strategy committee of rockingham and we have money available for.

L

Infrastructure stuff, so you want to make sure that he gets plugged into the infrastructure.

L

Piece of this craig because there's money that can be gotten from the federal government for.

L

That eda we're doing our current seds programming right now. So now would be the time for sean to put.

L

This in as a project on behalf of the city, so just to you know you talk about needing money.

L

From other sources, that's the way to get it is that for the eda eda yeah economic development.

L

Agency, it's all through the redc right, laurel's fiefdom over there. So anyway just a comment. I.

L

Make I'm not criticizing any pro. I think it's a great you know. Obviously, I'm a preservationist.

L

Too so reusing the sherman school building like the lafayette school was done, is a great outcome.

L

I do think you're a little optimistic on your august timetable. I'm well aware. Obviously, the.

L

Timetables for tax credits, but if you've got to go through a rezoning and it's all the stuff I just I.

L

Mean good luck. That would really be an act of god with the environment we have in portsmouth, because.

L

You know some of the usual suspects are going to be out there lobbying the neighbors to sue you.

L

um Maybe maybe not we, we hope not, and um you know your first question is an excellent one and the.

J

City, may you know how the governance and the city works is not up to me, but you know overall.

J

What we're, what we're trying to do and what it says in the in the policy is to move this stuff.

J

Along so with the city council, if, if there's a um you know, if you want to do an rfp, we're.

J

Just delaying it a year. That's that's fine, we're non-profit too, but no, but that's a discussion that.

L

Should have been had a few months ago or a year ago, whatever it is, I just you know pointing out.

L

The obvious and again just I think it's not fair to other organizations that do workforce housing.

L

Not to get a shot at an opportunity in portsmouth, which is rare if ever becomes available. That's all.

L

The comment I still love you hey right right back at you great thanks david.

B

Thank you craig and mark for joining us thanks.

B

Doing great work uh nice to see that in the flesh, so to speak with with rook's place, um world will.

B

Be plugged into the conversation and stay in close communication over the course of the next.

B

Few months and over the course of this year, as you gear up for an application. Well, if it's it's cool.

J

Because you had something real, you know it's nice to have something. That brings like that's very.

J

Tangible, so this is not about workforce housing or policy. It's about actual workforce housing.

B

Good, thank you for joining. Is there more of the meeting? Yes uh just a brief. You're welcome to.

B

Hang around um so, if david had anything else for public comment, that's next! Okay,.

B

So next on our agenda for a regular meeting would be our february third meeting.

B

um So we'll stay on track for that, but we did send a couple of notes out over the holiday season.

B

um Asking for uh what, whether morning or afternoon, would be best for a retreat with this group on.

B

January 20th, so it's the friday after martin luther king, uh the holiday and I heard from.

B

Most folks that the afternoon would be preferable, I think andy probably had the biggest conflict.

B

um Given a prior commitment, so otherwise, I think I'd like to propose that we meet at the levinson.

B

Room at the library on january 20th from 12 to 3. that work for everyone, um and I will just have.

G

To leave like 30 minutes early, okay, great we'll, try to make it robust and quick conversation, but.

B

um I think really honing in on on everything. We've been talking about and working through.

B

Over the past year, we're trying to come up with some actionable items, alan and I work on trying to.

B

Get kind of a a draft agenda out so to speak, and sean will be working on facilitating that for us.

B

um I think key topics would include how we're approaching uh advocacy situations where we'll.

B

Have an opportunity to speak either in general on a topic or on a particular project, so a timely.

B

Timely discussion on that, based on things we've heard recently from other other groups or projects.

B

And also this one in particular, good to have kind of some ground rules on where we would.

B

Like to be in being nimble and able to respond on those, if we so choose um further honing in on our.

B

Strategic efforts and partnerships and then really drilling down on key issues. You know, following.

B

Up on bre all the topics we've touched upon and maybe how we want to pivot and use that the good.

B

Work that that working group has done um and push further into that, I think one thing we did in our.

B

Last retreat pre-covered was a kind of a future visioning and kind of a forward-looking view out.

B

On a five-year basis, I think I would encourage folks to to take that approach. I think it's been.

B

A little quieter on kind of the smart city other than our ev discussions. We've had over the course.

B

Of this year, but encourage you to bring any topics and maybe include part of that in the discussion.

B

um And then again welcome any other once you have uh once you see what we put together next week,.

B

um Welcome you to suggest any additions to that. If there's any big gaps for the anything, that's.

B

Important to this group, um one thing I would like to uh reinvigorate and the year ahead.

B

Would be our data working group so jacob and I have to touch base on that and welcome any other.

B

Commissioners to join on that, but I think with a delay in the revaluation also, but in terms.

B

Of the budget, it's going to become a something that would be meaningful to have framing some.

B

Of our other discussions and other issues where we're working on over the course of the year so.

B

But I could stay tuned on that. But looking forward to that with this group and then.

B

If nobody has anything further would entertain a motion to adjourn somewhat.

B

Ahead of time, but happy to touch on anything else, if someone has something they'd like to.

B

Bring up but been a quieter month behind us and will be a busy month ahead and we're asking for.

B

Some time later this month so give you 15 minutes back. If no one has anything further.

B

So we moved it moved back in a second great thanks. Everybody.