City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Governance Committee, 14 Mar 2022

Previous Meeting Next Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: 3.14 Governance Committee

Description

3.14 Governance Committee

A

Well, welcome to the uh the governance committee and we are mostly remote today, so.

A

Suzanne woodward is here- and I am here- I'm vince lombardi and I'm acting chair.

A

We will have a meeting.

A

But no actions can be taken at this meeting because we don't have a quorum in the room.

B

Hold on a second, I don't see the recording light on. So while he was flashing that we're up there.

B

We go, we've got recording now start over. You can start over okay. Welcome to the governance.

A

Committee meeting um we are mostly on zoom, and um so we will not be taking any actions today.

A

But we will have our meeting I'd like to do a roll call.

A

Councillor cook present counselor tabor here and I'm vince lombardi and I'm here. Okay.

A

We have, we can do the approval of minutes from the 14th and the 28th. Are there any comments on those.

A

Minutes yeah: we can't we can't vote on the minutes. Oh we can't. He said we could. No, I'm sorry if.

B

It's not clear, we can't vote on the minutes. Are there any comments on the commit on those minutes.

A

A

Okay, well then, let's get into the.

A

The rules, uh the city council, rules of procedure and we're going to do a line by line review.

B

And do you need me to pull them up from somewhere or kate? Do you have them and want.

B

A screen share: what's your preference either way I have them up. um I can screen share or.

B

Why don't you try them? Why don't you give that a go since I'll be taking some notes? Okay,.

C

So can everyone see these yes perfect? Yes, works! Well, okay! um Here I'm going to try.

C

To move them on my screen so that I can see them better and there we go okay, so.

C

I met with legal counsel to go through the rules and orders of the the city council and.

C

We discussed all the questions that we had in the last meeting of the governance committee.

C

So the first rule that would impact is rule three. There was a section in rule three.

C

That specified- and you can see kind of here on the side what was deleted um specified.

C

Allowance of polling, but it it conflicts with our rules about not having a vote during.

C

A work session of the council, so um we decided that legally, we shouldn't have.

C

A section allowing for an informal vote if there's no vote, because that's a polling of the council.

C

Does anyone have any questions about this change in rule three.

A

I think that's appropriate.

A

D

With this bar uh whoever's, cheering from the meeting from asking counselors how they feel.

D

About a certain project or proposal, uh no, I think we can have discussion. We just can't vote.

D

Certainly no vote. I think that would be against our rules. Yes,.

D

But getting a feel for the room, I think, is valuable at times us.

C

This would limit discussion at all. Let me ask suzanne about that, um so I think you are fine to.

B

Kind of get a sense of the room, and it really is a question of how much um how much leeway.

B

Frankly, you want to give the mayor, in terms of conducting that I think everything short of a vote.

B

Is really up to the discretion of the the mayor and and these rules and how you want to frame the.

B

Conversation, my sense is from what I'm hearing and apologies for not being at the last mid meeting is.

B

You're looking to make sure you don't get too close to that line of a vote by polling, but still.

B

Looking for some feedback, I think in terms of, for example, whether the project is of interest to the.

B

City council or the that sort of direction, I guess, or how to guide the city manager in in some policy.

B

Just further policy discussion or bringing it forward to city council is that kind of where.

B

We're going yes, yes, I think the concern is around making sure that you know we don't violate any.

C

Rules on uh having in a quorum setting have a polling in the council, where you can't.

C

We, where you shouldn't, be voting on an action so, um and so just we don't want to cross that.

C

Line but it's perfectly reasonable for people, I think with it written with this change, taking.

C

Out that one line to still express their views um and ask questions during a work session: okay, okay,.

A

Why don't you continue, then? Okay, um the next council rule that I was looking at.

C

And I want to come back to rule seven because I think we'll have more discussion around rule. Seven.

C

I want to go to rule 13.

C

Disposition of motions.

C

I've divided this down, I'm double checking. Sorry, just a second I'm.

C

Double checking that that's accurate, yes into a and b and under rule 13, and here.

C

It leaves the first section, as is the second session section um in conversation with legal.

C

Counsel, we decided we needed to define what a friendly friendly amendment is um because.

C

We hadn't been in a position that that's ever been defined for our council. It's been.

C

A practice that we've followed for years, um but then there are questions around okay, so.

C

Who has to who accepts? Does it have to be the the person making the motion and they're second or not,.

C

um Is there any, is there any authority to object? Therefore, are you removing the authority of other.

C

Council members to act on a friendly amendment and so the way that we wrote this was we defined.

C

A friendly amendment first, a friendly amendment, is one in which the counselor amending the motion and.

C

The originator of the motion and the second agree on the change and then we said friendly amendments.

C

Accepted by the originator of the motion shall be voted by the whole if any member of the council.

C

Requests a vote on the amendment, so even if it's a friendly amendment, this allows to proceed in.

C

The manner that we have proceeded in most cases, unless somebody has a question or an objection.

C

To that friendly amendment and then it would just be considered as a regular amendment.

C

Essentially, because if somebody has that objection, then you can ask for a vote.

C

On the amendment, does that make sense, I think so. Yes, I think it's good that you uh that a counselor.

D

Can call for a vote on it on the friendly amendment. I think that's an important step.

C

Yes, I think the goal is just to make sure that we don't remove anyone's voice.

C

um In discussions um accidentally, I think that's the concern because we can get involved in several.

C

Rounds of friendly amendments- and you just don't know you want to make sure everybody is.

C

Is okay with those friendly moments? That's my our goal here.

C

um Rule 14 yes, and that squares with roberts it does it does. According to bob, he thought that.

C

This was reasonable as far as a role. Maybe we should distinguish between robert and roberts.

C

Rules and I'll be attorney bob sullivan, the city attorney. um So I think that this is.

C

I should note that we can set our own rules as a compound school day.

C

So this would be our role as a council.

C

And our city attorney didn't think that there was a problem with robert's rules.

C

And this rule, in fact he noted that it was interesting because not not many.

C

City councils actually have friendly amendments, but it's unusual that we have.

C

This in practice, yet we've never defined it and it hasn't been in our set of rules.

D

C

Rule 14 motions during debate: there was a question around what privilege is and in working with the.

C

City attorney on this, we went through all the possible definitions of privilege and.

C

Determined, ultimately, what we do mean here is a point of personal privilege, for example,.

C

If someone needs to leave briefly um choose the restroom during a meeting, so you request for the.

C

You ask for a point of personal privilege in that case, so we just put personal in here to clarify.

C

In case there was any question further question around that rule.

C

Does anyone have any ideas or thoughts on that perfect? That's good! Okay,.

C

Rule 21 complex of interest. um There was a question around whether or not.

C

We should specifically mention ethics here in the ethics process,.

C

And in that conversation um we determined that there there are additional provisions.

C

In the city charter and ethics ordinance, um I put this note in here for our reference.

C

Just so that everyone would know that we can either. We can include a note in the rules and.

C

Leave a note like this in the rules if we would like, um but it doesn't change rule 21.

C

Or we can just take that out, and everybody now knows.

C

That the reason we didn't change it is because there are other provisions.

A

Excuse me: would it be reasonable to cite the um where, in the ordinance that is.

A

Or is that within that, so that there's a quick reference there.

B

Yeah, I would have no objection to citing where it is in the ordinance for convenient reference.

C

Putting a note in here site for reference, yep.

C

So I will go back and make sure that we get the right citations there.

C

Any other questions not for me, okay,.

C

C

Taxing spending and borrowing there have been questions in the past around um whether or not.

C

There an expenditure is if the council votes on something that causes an expenditure, but that.

C

Expenditure hasn't occurred and do we reach two-thirds threshold for voting um and so.

C

We were trying to clarify this around taxing spending and borrowing whenever you're.

C

You have a foreseeable expenditure. You should um have a two-thirds vote of the council um so that.

C

Adds this line, in addition for any emotion for any motion for which it is reasonably foreseen, that an.

C

Action will alter the city budget. The motion shall require a two-thirds vote of the city council.

D

Yeah counselor cook- I I read this and um is it I think the intent.

D

We're looking for would be if it's reasonably foreseen, that the action would.

D

Exceed the amount that councils appropriated for city spending in the budget? Right? Yes, because.

D

Alter you know was a little bit. I thought we might benefit by clarifying a little more that it's.

D

If we're going to go over what the city, the budget's been appropriated to, spend.

C

Okay, so I'm going to highlight this here for me: I think that um yeah, this would be even a higher.

C

Threshold, so any anything that we voted on that changed the budget at all would require two-thirds.

C

um Even if it was even if it didn't exceed appropriation, um it might be.

C

That might be an unreasonable standard might be a little high of a standard.

D

Yeah I mean I'd be concerned. I I think.

D

In our city manager, former government, I think if the city manager wants to move money around.

D

uh She has that authority. uh She just can't exceed the appropriated amount.

D

Maybe suzanne can chime in on that yeah. I would. I would concur with that. uh Counselor taber and I.

B

I will say I I too had questioned about what alter the city budget.

B

Meant in this context, for example, um certainly there were a number of instances.

B

Where the city might come forward with a project or a proposal to make some.

B

Change to a roadway and we may be moving money from one line item. You know a project.

B

To another, it doesn't change the total dollar that has already been appropriated for, say, roadways.

B

But we are changing the projects that we're going to do it on or spending a little more for paving.

B

One road versus another or doing special testing there's. I could see a number of occasions where.

B

We asked for the city council's input on different projects and it would have budgetary impacts, but.

B

Not beyond the budget, and I think that kind of gets to councillor tabor's point of there's the.

B

Moving within the already appropriated amounts versus you know something that is going to.

B

Have a significant expense that would require some supplemental appropriation.

B

um So I think that's the challenge of trying to figure that one out there.

C

So language more around, like the seat of exceed appropriations.

C

In the city budget.

C

um Maybe exceed total appropriations in the city budget. I don't know that we want that either.

B

Yeah I'm trying to noodle this out. What would uh why don't you just mark that and.

A

That sounds seems to me that that's going to take a little noodling out noodling here.

D

Yeah I mean my sense has been you know. We agree on a 129 million dollar budget.

D

And the level of spending involved in that um that we don't we don't direct the city manager.

D

How to spend that within departments or between departments or.

D

Line by line- and that seems to have worked pretty well for us.

C

I will revisit this one again with the legal department and see if we can.

C

Put in some clarifying language.

C

um You know whether or not we need to say total appropriations or what we need to say here.

C

Is it reasonable? Do you think it's reasonable to have.

C

This provision here requiring a two-thirds vote.

C

Should we get the language correct.

D

I've always understood that if we were going to.

D

Go over the appropriated total budget, we required a two to exponent.

D

Maybe suzanne can enlighten me on that, but I think that's been brought up before.

A

I think I think the issue was that.

A

um This wasn't an a foreign anticipated going over um and I think what uh where this was derived from.

A

Was that there were um the potential for legal fees, whereas we didn't have, um according to.

A

Bob attorney bob he he said that you know there were no invoices in that meeting.

A

And so, therefore, we had the discussion of uh unanticipated expenses or and anticipated expenses.

A

Of significant legal costs, so I think this was derived from that to include.

A

Not just having to have invoices in hand, but a fairly.

A

Definite anticipated uh and how you I don't know how you're doing, wouldn't you wouldn't.

D

You have to when you have to have a concurrent supplemental appropriation.

D

In other words, when, when we authorized taking on the 40 000 a month to carry the mcintyre building,.

D

We needed a supplemental appropriation for that which we then wrote in um and- and here we've.

D

Got a situation where we can foresee we're going to need a supplemental appropriation.

B

I I think that the challenge is: you had a very unusual and atypical situation and we're gonna.

B

Have to be extra careful in the drafting so that bad facts don't make bad law so to speak in terms.

B

Of the rule of the law here- and I I'm wrestling in my own mind- because I just looked at this now.

B

How to um get at the the concern that arose at the time the action.

B

Was taken last year that that caused concern about budgeted amounts.

B

Without undoing the city manager, form of government and.

B

And the division of of responsibilities in in the charter- I'd say: let's noodle this.

B

A little more and it may help, maybe if we bring in finance as well and kind of put our.

B

Collective heads together, if there's a way to to tackle this one, that.

B

Tries to thread the needle here um because it is a yeah. It's a challenging one to to do because.

B

You we do, you know you, as a city council, you know certainly may have any number of five to.

B

Four votes in terms of policy directions for which there's adequate money for both policy.

B

Directions- and you know you don't want to get in in a place of not allowing work to go forward.

B

um And always needing that, two-thirds once you've done the real hard work of setting the budget at.

B

The beginning of the year, you don't want to tangle yourself up too much um yeah, so right.

D

Right, I'm just gonna. If you don't mind chairman lombardi, I'm just gonna take a two minute break.

D

If that's, okay with everybody, yes, that's fine! Thank you.

C

um I will go back and get further direction on this with legal and finance uh and report back.

C

On our next meeting, okay um with this and any other changes to the rules, um I think the next.

C

One we can probably cover pretty quickly um and it's not. I don't think it's uh something that.

C

Counselor chamber probably feels the need to weigh in on um rule 34. uh This was a clarification.

C

We had said include including work sessions and executive sessions. uh Executive sessions are.

C

What we used to call non-public sessions of the council, and now we call them non-public sessions.

C

So we just put in the word non-public instead of executive, to clarify.

A

That's fine. I raised that question because I just didn't know what it meant.

A

To be an executive session having been on many non-profit boards, that meant something different.

C

Yep, I think it was important here to clarify this. Actually, it's anything that we have.

C

In the rules that are confusing um needs to be clarified, because the rules should be understood.

C

To the council and to all of our residents, so I think this just makes this much more clear.

A

Thank you and the next one is rule 41 addressed by the public. This is one that councilor taber.

C

Expressed a view on last at our last meeting around allowing leaving it as is and allowing.

C

Members to address the council with them with just a majority vote uh members of the public.

C

And counselor taber we just we're on rule 41, and this is one that you had commented on last at our.

C

Last meeting about leaving it, as is, um I spoke with the city city attorney about this as well.

C

While this isn't standard practice, it allows for more flexibility.

C

And so there's no reason not to leave it, so we can leave it in even if we're we're in.

C

The standard practice of suspending the rules, but this would allow for somebody to ask for.

C

Just a majority vote um instead of a suspension of the rules, I think that's great yep.

B

Looks good any other concerns, I think that's good, yeah, okay, um public comment. This is one of.

C

Those that I had um more significant changes in this public comment session, section.

C

I and initially I had not proposed any changes around section. A on public comment.

C

But I then altered section a to meet with the changes in section b so section this.

C

Change in section a is really a reflection on the change in section b, um the only change to.

C

Public comment would be that public comment shall appear on the agenda of every council meeting in.

C

Which there is not a pre-scheduled public dialogue session so that you're not having both um because.

C

Each are envisioned to be about 45 minutes of time for the public to interact with council members.

C

And to express viewpoints, so this the goal of this is to make sure we have that public interaction.

C

Whether it be public dialogue or public comment, but not have both um at one meeting of the council.

C

Then I altered section b um to say that public dialogue would be a session before the regular.

C

City council meetings and or city council before sessions, so it could be either or or.

C

We can also have this is a question I have here. You could have public dialogue at any.

C

Other time any other noticed public meeting, um so it doesn't have to be necessarily a city.

C

Council meeting it doesn't necessarily have to be a work session of the city council.

C

That would allow more flexibility, I think around having public dialogue sessions outside of council.

C

Chambers in in other locations so say you wanted to have a public dialogue session.

C

Before a city-wide neighborhood meeting for example, so that's a public notice meeting.

C

The city council could schedule public dialogue before that meeting.

C

But at those public dialogue sessions you would have no more than three members.

C

Of the council present, this is in an effort not to create forum.

C

And the reason we don't want to create forum is as soon as we create forum with public dialogue.

C

Then we have provisions around taking minutes and recording those meetings, which is a considerable.

C

Burden on city staff and finding ways to record an informal dialogue is also extremely difficult.

C

To record it accurately in those sessions, so this would be a more a very informal.

C

Mechanism for discussion with city council members and since it's only three members and no more than.

C

Three members of the council at a time you don't need to take minutes, but we need to make sure that.

C

We have clear guidance on who is participating in each public dialogue, and so we clarify.

A

You froze obsession what you froze for a minute there. Oh sorry, that's! Okay, okay,.

C

So um we clarified who should participate in the public dialogue by saying that the mayor shall.

C

Determine which city council members participate in each dialogue session on a rotational basis.

C

With the requirement that all city councilors participate in at least one public dialogue.

C

Session in a calendar year, and the reason that I put this language in specifically is that, given.

C

Work obligations: some city counselors, will have more difficulty participating in public.

C

Dialogue session that starts before a work session, specifically since work sessions start earlier or.

C

Before another noticed meeting that may start at 5 pm, some counselors won't have the time at 4pm.

C

So it's helpful to let that be a little more flexible and allow the mayor to schedule.

C

That I'm, assuming that the mayor will have conversations with counselors to do that, but also.

C

You don't want to put the requirement that city councilors participate. I think that.

C

It's reasonable to say that you participate in at least one in a year, um but more than that, I.

C

Think would be difficult to require of somebody who were already requiring a lot of city council.

C

Meetings up, especially for somebody whose work schedule may be such that they work till 6 pm.

C

um So that's kind of where I landed. I would love to have some discussion around this.

D

A couple of thoughts: um well, it will be interesting to see if the council, when.

D

We discuss it at the council. Level wants to alternate public comment and public dialogue.

D

D

That that means that half of our public input process would be through public dialogue.

D

Myself, I I I'm not sure that we want to remove that much public comment. You know maybe quarterly.

D

um But that's just my preference, um the uh I think it'd be up to the council as a whole.

D

The 2017 council did alternate, um and one of the features they had was that.

D

Those involved in the dialogue came back to the diocese and reported what the comments.

D

Were and I think that's valuable because then residents who've been part of the discussion.

D

Know that their their comments go back to the whole council.

D

So those are two thousands.

A

I guess my my thought was that um I liked the idea of it.

A

Being out in the city and in the neighborhoods, and that that's.

A

That would be a very positive thing to do.

A

I would, I think I would suggest not having it every other meeting.

A

I think that would be a lot and would tend to.

A

A

And we have two meetings a month, you know- or more so I mean two scheduled meetings a month. So.

C

I I think that it's reasonable um to not have it.

C

Every other meeting- and I that's what I was trying to we were trying to.

C

Have any to remove any specificity around the number of times that you have to have.

C

Public dialogue versus public comment and when you have to have it versus having public comment.

C

um Because I think that this is this is an area where it depends on the council. Different councils.

C

Have different interests around public dialogue and public comment and different.

C

Obligations depending upon what their current work schedule is, what they're working on at the time.

C

One of the challenges is, you can't have public dialogue if you have non-public.

C

Sessions of the council, because everyone has to be president, not in public session before.

C

The city council session, so I think that public dialogue becomes difficult.

C

On public prior to a council session, I'd like having some more flexibility around that so that.

C

Public dialogue can occur at other times before any noticed meeting um and and then in that case,.

C

Say you have a public dialogue session before a citywide neighborhood committee.

C

Meeting that clearly does not replace public comment at a city council meeting the only time.

C

That it would replace public comment is when you have it immediately prior to city council,.

C

Meeting that way, the issues at hand are there's room to address those with the public.

C

um So what I was trying to do is create a lot more flexibility here for the council, but then.

C

I think that what this has to be followed by is a scheduling of public dialogue sessions.

C

Through the year, so this recommendation to to the council to change this format.

C

Should also include a recommendation that you, you know, maybe we schedule public dialogue at.

C

This time you know through the year and um so that we make sure we have a public dialogue for.

C

Residents who are more comfortable, participating and discussing things with council in this format.

C

So at least that's my thinking around it. I guess I would add to that uh that.

A

I would like to see it out in the various wards and make sure we visit.

A

Different neighborhoods.

A

And have that scheduled so that in advance so that people in those neighborhoods.

A

Would be very well aware of it and have the opportunity to come.

D

Yeah, I concur with counselor lombardi that it'd be great to get these out into the neighborhoods.

D

Maybe deputy city manager, woodland can answer the question: is there any prohibition from us.

D

Having the whole council meeting start to finish out in the wards on a rotating basis, so let me.

B

Give you a couple of thoughts, so let me start with the last one, which is the technology.

B

Is arriving to allow us to hold city council meetings.

B

Outside of city hall, so that technology is on the way and we hope to test it.

B

Probably in in april, amongst ourselves before we, we roll out to the city council as as an option.

B

But those pieces are in the works uh to make that happen um as someone you know who participated now.

B

Or viewed for many years, the public comments session and then the public dialogue. My.

B

Suggestion for consideration is don't touch public comment. Just leave public comment as.

B

It is, and I think part of that is when I sat through some of the dialogue sessions.

B

Not everyone got hurt just because of the time pressures, and yet, if you've got something on the.

B

Agenda or something that's really important to you, that you've bothered to show up to the city.

B

Council meeting, you know three minutes. It can be long when 45 people show up, but um you know for.

B

The average meeting I think that public comment session does you know what people can count on.

B

It and and not have to look. Oh, is this a public dialogue session, but my issue is up. I I kind of.

B

Like you know, having that space, where the city council gets to hear from individual residents,.

B

Regardless they can count on it and it's always a forum and a venue open for residents and business.

B

Owners, stakeholders to come in and speak to the whole city council, very reliable and predictable.

B

In terms of the public dialogue piece, I do like what I'm hearing from all of you, which is how to.

B

Get out into the communities make yourselves as city councillors a little more accessible.

B

To allow folks to more easily engage with with that, so.

B

Maybe you just disconnect the two: there are the city council meetings which have a city.

B

Comment section and as they have traditionally had, and then you build in this public dialogue piece.

B

Wherever you as a city council, think it would be most effective to have those conversations with.

B

You know our our stakeholders, our residents and, and I think it can be built around other.

B

Public meetings that are already taking place- and we may not always have the best video.

B

Capability in those other places, but that's okay, if it's going to be just three of you and then.

B

Reporting back, I like the reporting back in a full city council meeting. You still could do that.

B

There's no reason why one of the three city councilors doesn't put under their name or, however,.

B

We wound up doing the agenda a report back on a dialogue session uh that happened. You know the.

B

Prior week or the prior two weeks um out in in a neighborhood or, however, you decide to unfold that.

B

So that's just kind of some thinking. I would also say I I like the idea of having the city council.

A

Meeting in various places too certainly- and we could do that in different wards, for example-.

D

I agree with, I agree with you suzanne, that you know my concern had been if we replaced public.

D

Comment with public dialogue and then five days before the council meeting, we need to.

D

Have a non-public boom, there's no opportunity for citizen input, so I I I also I'm coming around to.

D

The point of view, a key public comment, sacrament um and public dialogue- is something we had.

D

um On a regular basis, uh it's it's noticed so people can attend uh and we report back.

C

I think that's entirely reasonable. um Yes, I think the goal was more to increase discussion, not.

C

Decrease discussion here so um if there is any concern around.

C

This section on, in which there is not a pre-scheduled public dialogue session.

C

I'm I'm happy to take that out and leave it as is and um and then be in a situation where we.

C

um Or just having public dialogue as a separate entity entirely, um I think that's.

C

Entirely reasonable and then people have just more opportunity because I think that's truly. The goal.

C

Of giving people opportunities, especially people who are not necessarily comfortable coming.

C

And providing us their opinions at public comment, um giving them a different type of forum for that.

B

Yeah and if I may, I I think you know not, everyone is comfortable being in front.

B

Of a camera, so the fact that you can have a conversation with a couple of city, councilors.

B

You know without the camera on might actually for some people feel more accessible.

A

Good, I think that's you have some more work to do kate, okay, happy to do it um and I'll go back.

C

I think that this, the section on public dialogue does capture um what we've been discussing here.

C

But I will maybe add some clarifying language around purpose here.

C

I don't think there are very many more changes, we'll go back.

C

To agenda in a second um the last one is rule 47.

C

In discussion with legal, I think there was a question around.

C

Limitations of 10 or more consecutive years and losing valuable.

C

Input from people who have served for long periods of time on our boards.

C

Especially since individuals are reconsidered,.

C

In any case by the mayor and by the council, when they're reappointed.

C

So we removed language around limitation for 10 for serving 10 consecutive years.

C

And clarified that all vacancies and boards on commissions shall be publicly advertised.

C

Which is already the case, it's more just of clarification so that everyone understands.

C

This is the practice that that we believe we should have they're all publicly advertised if.

C

If the mayor selects somebody who's already served 10 or more years, that's intentional and.

C

It just kind of goes with standard practice. I think at this point, but doesn't force us.

C

Into a position of necessarily reconsidering someone's service, if they've served 10 years.

C

Does that make sense me that it does.

B

Can I can I just I should know the answer to this question, but since you've talked to bob.

B

The publicly advertised.

B

Is does that actually require an advertisement in the newspaper or just on our website?.

C

I haven't asked what that actually requires. I think. Currently we do advertise.

C

In both places, at least that's what I found when I was researching um advertisements for.

C

Vacancies- and I don't know how many times we do that, and I can ask that question of the city clerk.

B

Yeah, because we have a lot of boards and commissions, and I I'm not sure.

B

That we, that we and maybe maybe the clerk's office, does it- and I just don't know about it, which is.

B

Quite possible, I will double check I for some reason. I do think that for boards and commissions.

C

We do because we usually receive them in the board packet, um but but clearly we don't for committees.

B

And maybe that's the terminology here: yeah there's the land use boards and and other statutorily.

B

Required ones and then there's a lot of blue ribbon committees and other things: okay, yeah.

C

Yes, go ahead, I'm just trying to remember where the rule is about advertising. I mean we. We amended.

A

That rule to include um the website- I don't know whether I mean if you I can go back. um If you I'm.

A

Just thinking it you know, I don't I don't know where that ports with harold is going. You know.

A

And whether it's even going to be available so to have a requirement at a be in the newspaper.

A

I think I think in that, whatever rule that was, we talked about um emphasizing the fact that.

A

It means um also through the web page. Yes, I I believe we we did clarify that this year.

C

um I'll have to go back and look and see which rule that is.

C

That we clarified, but we did clarify it- to include electronic electronic advertising.

C

And that currently is the practice, um but I will double check with the city.

C

Clerk, I want to make sure the city clerk is very comfortable with this change. Yeah, that's right.

C

I think that's a reasonable question um and I don't immediately see where that clarification.

C

Was so I will, I will double check with her too yeah. I always want to make sure we've got money.

B

In the budget for all for the advertising fits the paid kind versus the putting it on.

B

Our website pushing it out in our newsletter and our other vehicles of communication, so.

C

Although in general, I think we should make sure we are advertising all those positions agreed.

B

Agreed, it's just making sure I understand what you want yeah and what's done, I think our intent.

D

Should be that whenever we have an opening on a border commission.

D

There's there's wide public notice so that we get all people who are interested.

D

I think we want to avoid a situation where the mayor has.

D

Where there's the mayor has appointments in his pocket so to speak.

D

And we're not we're not getting applications from everybody that we could. I think we want.

D

To get the broad as possible and put it to that end, there is value in the print.

D

Indium um it would put, but it can't do it alone. We need the electronic dissemination too.

D

But that's just speaking as a newspaper guy.

D

C

Okay, so I will report back um the last one I wanted to cover is rule seven. um I I've been.

C

Working to try to find a way to streamline the order of business um just to um tighten up our son.

C

And time-wise- um and this is just a suggestion- um but one of the suggestions that I thought.

C

Was reasonable to consider was moving all city council and city manager, items that require action.

C

Under one subheading action items and instead of appearing under individual city, counselors names.

C

Or under the city manager's names, their name would be highlighted after the item, in parentheses,.

C

Whose item that was to discuss that would allow the mayor to know who to turn to.

C

For each action item, but it would streamline the agenda song and it would move all actions together.

C

During the council sessions.

B

So this is the the one I looked at and said: oh, this could be tricky um and it's as someone who.

B

Works on putting together um an agenda and trying to.

B

You know prepare the comments. You know the city manager does comments for.

B

Her action items that are sometimes fairly detailed in terms of this you know.

B

License or easement is needed, here's some background on the project and and here's.

B

The action requested it seemed to me that it might be a little confusing in terms of how we.

B

Put things together: if there wasn't some kind of clear, either separation or denotation of.

B

Her items versus the counselor generated items, so that was my initial thinking so I'll stop there.

A

Any other comments I had yeah.

D

I had some of the same reaction. um You know, I thought I think, how you and and.

D

A dedicated agenda item for city manager items uh here straight about service city.

D

She's at each staff and some of them have have deadlines, so I would be concerned that we could.

D

Get into some council items um have to extend a meeting or have a meeting break into two parts.

D

And the city manager would not have been able to get items under her name taken care of in a timely.

D

Manner- and I also think that there are, there are items that she needs to bring to her council.

D

To get decisions um and making that a regular, um clearly delineated part of the meeting I think, has.

C

So um what I'm hearing is concern about the differences in action items if they come before.

C

From the city manager, nurses, counselor members, council members and making sure that we address.

C

The city manager's items first, which is what we shifted this year anyway, in the order of business.

C

And my particular concern around action items is the way that we currently have it separated out.

C

Puts city councillors in a position that they feel a need to bring forward actions before the council.

C

Sometimes, even when they don't have particular items to bring forward, otherwise they might.

C

Have the only name- that's not on the agenda for that session, so it increases orders of.

C

Business rather than um putting us in a situation where um we only bring forward issues that should.

C

Be addressed or that we're really interested in having addressed um so I was trying to limit that.

C

And make sure that counselors are only bringing forth in from like items that they want to discuss.

C

And therefore, just kind of streamlining the way those are addressed.

C

If there's specific concerns around the difference in appearance of action items coming from the city.

C

Manager versus action items from coming from the council. We can go back to the way it was. We can.

C

Look for other ways to streamline this process. I know that one of them, one of those other ways.

C

Is to ask for the consent agenda to be adopted by one one motion, rather than going through the.

C

Individual items in the consent agenda, which, uh fortunately, we did at our last council session,.

C

I think that's the first one this year that we've done that, so we can streamline in a few other ways.

C

um The council sessions, um but I'm just trying to find ways to make this.

C

Our time to use our time more efficiently is all I was trying to do. Yes, um I'm wondering.

B

um If, if I hear you right, counselor cook, part of it is distinguishing between, um you know, items for.

B

Consideration that are actually that either the city, manager or counselors are actually looking.

B

For a vote, and maybe other items that the city councillors just want to discuss, in which case.

B

If it's just discussion, you know if a city council wants to bring up something.

B

He or she has has read if they've gone to a conference and are reporting back.

B

Maybe there's another section you know before or after the city, manager's, informational items.

B

That is kind of the other bucket for city council pieces that are informational.

B

You know I went to a conference, I'm reporting back. I did the public dialogue session.

B

And you know I was the note keeper and here's what we learned um and then maybe the action items is.

B

Twofold there's a city manager, section and a city. Councillor section, I don't know I'm trying to.

B

Suss it out here, because it sounds like you're trying to tease out or or or put a point on what.

B

It is the city, councilor is really looking for an action or just a report, back kind of item.

C

Right, I mean that's, that's kind of what I'm trying to suss out what are really truly our.

C

Action items that the council needs to address versus um what are reports.

C

Back, which I think report backs are really important and in some cases maybe they you know.

C

uh Like when we have committee volunteer committee reports, they come before actions of council.

C

But sometimes that report back the city, manager's informational items.

C

Here you could also have city council, informational items, uh it's reasonable to have.

C

Like here at the top, in section two, we have public dialogue session um here.

C

You know we don't have a provision for report back for things like public dialogue session, but.

C

You could have recognitions volunteer committee reports report back from public dialogue here.

C

So that way, it's always included before the action items are voted for the council in case.

C

There's anything that's coming up in action items, it was discussed in public dialogue.

C

um I think we always try to make sure we have public comment and everything around public.

C

Comment before we take action on items and that would be kind of the same in the same vein,.

C

Maybe we have action items and we divide out action items between the city manager and the.

C

Council, so we have, you know: subsection, a action items, a city manager, action on b, city council.

C

And then we have um the report backs. We change recognitions, volunteer committee reports.

C

Public dialogue, but maybe we also have report outs from committee here before public comment session.

C

Because that's something that city councillors do regularly bring back to the council.

C

um And their report outs not really action items, um so maybe we have that before.

C

We get to action items, um I don't know. If that's and and then we can have city many.

C

Managers, informational items and city councillors, informational items which would be not committee.

C

Reports but things like you know, I attended an interesting workshop on city council at.

C

You know for the state of new hampshire and I'm reporting back on that. That would be something.

C

Entirely different does that make sense yeah. I think that I think that might work that might work.

D

I understand your concern that by putting agenda items there we're creating opportunities.

D

And maybe we're we're encouraging more items to take up than than we ought to.

D

But I can think of uh five four councils in makeup or eight one councils, where um you know oftentimes.

D

The the counselors representing the four uh have people who really have items that.

D

They want uh brought to the city, the full city council, um and uh it serves a valuable purpose.

D

um And I can think of city manager, items like supplemental appropriations or.

D

Bond issues that we had to get done by certain times that that are very timely, so.

D

I can see the sense of having both.

C

And I I want everyone to know: I'm not trying to eliminate the opportunity for city councillors.

C

To bring things forward I this would be no that's already in section 4., it's very clear.

D

But also you know, government is inefficient and sometimes you want it that way.

C

It's true, more discussion is sometimes better.

C

Okay, so I'll go back and revisit this again I'll see if I can find ways to clarify better, maybe.

C

I'll have a conversation with the deputy city attorney around this before our next meeting.

C

That's the last the last rules recommendation, so I'm going to turn it back over.

C

To counselor lombardi, thank you counselor cook. um The next item is the ethics process.

A

Counselor taber and I met with attorney, sullivan and um reviewed um the whole ethics process and.

A

I think everyone received the.

A

The memorandum from the city attorney and john: do you want you want to speak to that.

D

Well, I think we took we took up what the ethic, what this governance committee had talked about.

D

Last time- um and I could just go through them quickly, one by one can is it possible to put.

A

That on the screen, do you have that suzanne? uh I have it. Okay, if you want me to share.

C

It I think, okay, I was gonna, say I would say no, because I think she just brought down the rules.

C

um I have it here, I'll share it. If I can um there yeah. Thank you.

A

D

I just have to uh I'm working by phone here, so um I mean our first major item was.

D

In the ethics complaint process, a citizen or a fellow counselor or anyone makes the ethics.

D

Complaint and then it goes to the mayor and the city attorney and that it only advances if.

D

One of the two of them are both feel it. It merits an ethics investigation.

D

We heard from nancy pearson who participated in the 2020 ethics process, that it's a big burden.

D

For the complainant to carry the burden of proof, and so in our discussion we came up with this idea.

D

And I don't think any other city that I know of in new hampshire. Does it for that of an appointed.

D

Investigator, who wants the mayor and city board and or city attorney, say the claim. That's married.

D

A neutral third party investigator would then, uh who would who would stand by appointment of.

D

The mayor, through uh the mayor's term and he be on tap and would have the requisite background, would.

D

Gather the back and after gathering the facts, write a report and that would go to the ethics.

D

Board and then the board would weigh that and um and make their finding and the ethics commission.

D

Could committee could could have called additional witnesses? They could ask for elaboration. They.

D

Could call the complainant or the defendant, um but it would relieve the person making the complaint.

D

Of the burden of putting the whole case together and it would speed the process and perhaps.

D

Provide a lot of factual implementation for the ethics committee to base their decision on.

D

So we thought that was a novel idea and we thought it had some merit.

D

It doesn't, it doesn't take away the ethics committee's powers, it simply adds.

D

The light work so to speak, to put the case together.

D

And that was, we spent a lot of time discussing that.

D

We talked about when the ethics committee makes a finding, and it goes to the city, council or.

D

The governing body, if it's one of the boards or commissions um and they have to decide the action.

D

um I think we were all in agreement and we would strongly recommend that.

D

If the defendant is on the governing body, they have to recuse themselves and anyone.

D

With close personal ties or financial ties to the defendant has to recuse themselves um and.

D

I'm having difficulty reading that, what's our next one, I would john. I would just add that this.

A

Investigator would have full powers of discovery um so that.

A

They they could really do the work of um of defining the ethics problem um and uh or.

A

So I I think that's an important point right before you go on to the.

C

Hey can um I wanted to note um for the committee that I noticed that esther kennedy is on the call.

C

um This week, I'm not, I don't know if she wants to participate. I would note that last.

C

Last time we met, we noticed that nancy pearson was on.

C

um And we offered her the opportunity to take part in the discussion. um I would just note.

C

That, um if esther does want to participate in um adding her views, I think it would be.

C

um Good to also include her and any comments that she has as part of our discussion today,.

A

A

Okay, she has appeared on the screen and is now unmuted, so esther welcome. Thank you. Everyone.

E

Yeah, I was a little disappointed when I found out from many people last week that people were.

E

Invited- and it was assumed that I guess me and she was invited to and that I wasn't invited.

E

Ann walker and mr richard gamester, um and so I guess I just um decided to jump on today because.

E

I was a little concerned about things that were being said.

E

I do have opinions about all this. I think some of the situation.

E

I I would agree with there should be an investigator, but I think the investigators.

E

Should come an impartial investigator, maybe should be at the very beginning.

E

To make sure that the people making the first decision, the mayor and the counselor.

E

Or the mayor and the city attorney have all the information, so I believe that was not the.

E

True truth, when I went through mine to make an appropriate decision, I also think there should be.

E

Ample opportunity, when that decision is being put forward to have both parties have time to prepare.

E

I was given less, I was given 24 hours and three minutes notice at five in the afternoon. That.

E

There was going to be a meeting about this. The next day, which I thought was very unfair um and.

E

I had not been given the full complaint at that point. I was given a phone call.

E

By mr sullivan that there would be a meeting at the fire station, so that is of ample concern to me.

E

I also believe that some of the other concerns that took place and as I shared with attorney.

E

Sullivan the other day that I have been totally quiet about it on purpose, I chose not to make an.

E

Election issue, I chose not to bring because the number of people that were involved that were.

E

Running, I didn't think it was right and I did not want to take it down as a citizen issue, but.

E

I do believe that there are a lot of problems with the process. um One of the other problems was that.

E

When and- and I don't know how much of its problems, because we're on zoom or how much of would.

E

Then we couldn't be live, but I do know that a vote was taken by the ethics committee and.

E

Two people that chose the vote both said they had not received the information. It's right on camera.

E

I chose not to put that in my video that I presented to the council because I chose to.

E

Only go only to have those people that made the complaint in the video, but- and I know those people.

E

um But they both voiced that they had not received the information um and yet they made it vote.

E

During the conversation we had, we were asked if there were people in the room.

E

With us and to name those people, people did not were not truthful about that. So there was no.

E

um Control over that there was no ramification. My only option was to go to higher courts.

E

Which I was trying to avoid because of the number of people that were involved in it.

E

But I do believe when the when there was information asked with someone in.

E

The room and someone you can see someone in a mirror that causes question so again, I'm not.

E

Sure how much it was because we're on zoom and we're alive. But I do believe that the process.

E

Was flawed once the decision was made to go forward? I believe that.

E

That the evidence was not looked at.

E

As people were shocked in the city, when I did the video and show the actual evidence.

E

And I do think that um there should be qualities and qualifications and decisions on who should be.

E

Involved in the process, do we have attorneys? Do we not have attorneys? Do we have um uh how much.

E

Time and before you have to put your case together, do you have more than 24 hours and three minutes.

E

um To prepare and even free yourself up, I had to change a graduate class that I was teaching.

E

At the last minute, because of um getting a five five o'clock phone call that she was 5.

E

47 or something like that for six o'clock at the meeting the next night.

E

So I think, there's a lot to the process. um I also think that I was told by one of the.

E

People that chose to move it forward said that if you knew all of it, he would have.

E

Not moved it forward, but he was not given the information ahead of time and he was not.

E

He didn't have anything to go on, except for one letter from the person that made the complaint.

E

He had nothing from the other person. The complaint was about, so only thing he could go on is what.

E

Was the complaint was made, so I think if you're looking at truly the ethics code.

E

You should think of maybe both sides when a complaint is made. The other complaint has.

E

The other the person that complains made on has you know 72 hours, five days to file a rebuttal.

E

So that when the city attorney and the counselor is making the decision to move it forward to the.

E

Ethics committee, that all that is taken into account, so both sides are hurt not just one.

E

So I really feel that again I've chosen to kind of keep quiet, even though I know I've had many.

E

Attorneys offered to take it higher because they felt, but my reputation was not hurt that much.

E

And I did not feel I felt what I did was a whistle-blowing kind of situation and I stand.

E

By that, as I shared with many people, I tried, as I provided evidence, I tried and no one was listening.

E

So I would encourage moving forward if you're really going to look at the process. Look at.

E

The whole process- and I would encourage you to really make sure that there was no oath taken.

E

So I could show you in videos that I've captured the difference between.

E

What was said one week and what was said in another week by certain people and how different.

E

Their story changed during our um during the ethics board regation. So technically I could, if.

E

There was no taken, we could hold them accountable for not being truthful. So I guess I all that.

E

Needs to be decided if you are going to go after people or if you're, going to question people or if.

E

You're going to look at comedy evidence, you know it's pretty sad when you talk to a city attorney.

E

um Four days right when the complaint was made- and he didn't see anything wrong with what I had done.

E

And how it affected the ethics and then also- and I get back up so again- there was.

E

A conflict, I think, with city attorney being a counselor that might be need to look at.

E

But if we're really going to go down the rabble hole here, then let's go down and let's really.

E

Look at every aspect of it and let's look at the truth of how we make sure the truths.

E

Can be upheld, um the one thing we need to be real, clear of is that you, this is just a support board.

E

Actually, the council vote um means more to the courts, because they're elected and.

E

I think that um you need to decide um what everyone's role is. You cannot have people.

E

Make a decision about someone's life, which was what they were doing.

E

And not say they can say publicly, they had not looked at the evidence and not even received it.

E

Yet- and I made that decision, I'd like to stop there, thank you. Thank you, esther. I I think.

A

um We basically are taking your suggestion and looking at the whole process.

A

um I think that by having um outside counsel be the first person to well, there has to be a.

A

Internal process and that established process is the mayor and the city attorney at this point.

A

But then it goes to an outside ombudsman.

A

I don't know we don't have a title for it, but basically a person that is trained in ethics.

A

And it's would be on retainer by the city um to then take over the.

A

uh The process uh have full uh rights of discovery.

A

And research and create a report that then goes to the ethics committee, which is selected again by.

A

By drawing names out of a hat from the various from the council from the fire commission, police.

A

Commission school board and then we also suggested that there be a fifth person, a.

A

A basically a resident at large be part of that committee as well.

E

Can I say something yeah, I think the information collection that you were talking about.

E

There before it goes to the fx committee should be done before it even goes to the.

E

Mayor and legal, um the person that makes the original decision well, that's right.

A

That that's a that's a good suggestion and I think we could look at that. Thank you.

F

Hello can, can you hear me um who is this bishop? This is arthur, clow and, and I had submitted um two.

F

Ethics, complaints uh relatively the same time as nancy pearsons and, first of all, the city attorney.

F

Told me that it was pretty much the standard of how you should write an ethics complaint. But my.

F

Ethics complaint was about conflict of interest and I was told that it could not go forward.

F

Because the boards, the board, that the two people were acting from was not named in the ethics.

F

Ordinance in the in the so, in other words, if you need to have universal coverage uh for.

F

Unethical behavior in the city of portsmouth, I have some other comments, but that.

F

That that's the the first one that I have. I don't know if I need to wait till public comments to.

F

um To say a few other things about the ethics proceedings or whether I could do so now.

F

I was as much a participant and- and I I reject uh nancy pearson's idea- that.

F

You know she didn't have the resources to be able to put together an ethics complaint.

F

I have less college education than nancy pearson and I put together a multi-page document with fax.

F

Etc, and uh had I been able to be heard, I would have presented my case that what I've heard.

F

Today is the idea that we take away and make optional the complainant of putting the case.

F

Forward nancy pearson had people coaching her in the room and uh the a blind eye was turned.

F

To the help that she was getting in the room you know there were, there were conflicts of interest.

F

By people that were sitting on the ethics board, one of the one of the people on the ethics board.

F

Ended up using the service, the services with his non-profit for the um for the new hampshire pop-up.

F

So we had conflicts of interest on the board. You've got to start off with a clean board.

F

You've got to assure that people uh get their due process in for.

F

For the meeting to have occurred via zoom and to have seen the activity of people involved in.

F

The meeting on the cameras and how they were reading messages from other people.

F

Was very strange when the fire department was still having in-person meetings so.

F

I am concerned that you need a bigger hearing.

F

uh With more people involved about how to handle the ethics uh complaint, um a lot of.

F

It's it's a personal risk to sit down and write an ethics complaint. It's for me. It's it's also.

F

Emotional and difficult time-consuming, um and it can be heartbreaking uh to know that.

F

It's a political process. I think that what was done to to uh councilor kennedy.

F

Was really derivative? The point wasn't proven. Her counsel was criticized for his tonality.

F

He wasn't listened to. um Counselor kennedy is, is not as astute at doing presentations over zoom.

F

uh But in an in-person meeting would have been more fair and we would have had.

F

uh And and it would have been nice to have held people accountable for misconduct which.

F

Nancy pearson clearly did by having people in the room and not announcing it.

F

So I I think that you, the idea of taking it out of the hands of people or having city staff or.

F

Somebody else write up ethics complaint goes goes against uh everything and, by the way I agree with.

F

Esther, you know what you all need. You need a whistleblower protection policy which the city.

F

Doesn't have esther kennedy was a whistleblower and he had a problem where the city was doing.

F

Services putting money into pop-up new hampshire before they were even an organization. There was no.

F

Contract they had a fiscal agent before they were um an actual entity. There were multiple ethical.

F

Problems with the way that the council executed their agreement, that that that's a problem.

F

This was just a political witch-hunt, um very disappointing and we're fortunate that councillor.

F

Kennedy did not take legal action against the city for violation of her rights of due process.

A

Thank you arthur.

A

I I guess we are looking at the whole ordinance and- um and I and I appreciate.

A

Your comments- um this is this- is just the first draft of what we've.

A

Talked about uh so um this is an ongoing process for this committee. um Counselor cook. Yes,.

D

Wait a minute counselor cook, first yep.

C

um I just I wanted to clarify that in our last session of governance and just so everybody.

D

Knows I only invited the committee to attend um that session um after a discussion with the.

C

The deputy city manager who's there today, um I decided just to invite the committee members.

C

For their initial input, rather than the individuals involved in the last.

C

Ethics process, mostly because I didn't want to have two different parties and at the same meeting.

C

Rehashing what occurred during that process um and I decided to hold off on that and nancy pearson.

C

Appeared on her own apparently because of public notice. So so I just want everyone to.

C

To know that and and I'm I'm thrilled that that esther showed up today and.

C

Arthur close showed up today so that we could include them also in the process.

A

Thank you, councillor, tabor yeah, I'm grateful to arne and esther for.

D

Being part of this, we're just trying to get to the best process.

D

I think the the timeliness of notice for the defendant that esther brought up is very important.

D

I take it from her comments that it was 24 hours and three minutes.

D

Before the meeting of the assistant mayor and the city attorney.

D

Rather than the ethics committee itself, I know, as the ethics committee tried, to give.

D

Both the complaint and the defendant time to prepare their cases and we pace the meetings.

D

That way, we also had a 30-day deadline that we had to achieve achieve. That's in the.

D

Board and then we did try to give first the complainant and then the defendant.

D

An entire night to make their case and each side got to cross-examine the other.

D

So we really did try to get as much due process as we could. um You know the issues about who was in.

D

The room and so forth, I think the question would be: would that have changed any of the testimony.

D

um I thought we did get pretty full full and fair testimony. We did our best to do that.

D

I think that um the third party, independent investigator, would enable a lot of facts to.

D

Be gathered uh in a neutral way: favoring, neither the complainant nor the defendant, but to gather.

D

The facts and say: do these facts met match what our ethics ordinance as a violation is.

D

So I'll leave it there. Thank you.

E

Can I make this a point of clarification? Okay, um the clarification point is um counselor.

E

Tabor, the meeting was the night that you were bringing everyone together. That was a public.

E

um You were bringing people together over the fire station.

E

Okay, so the first time that was um less than 24 hours well right at the 24 hour, three.

E

Minute mark I was like saying to attorney sullivan. I cannot believe we're doing this.

E

So quickly like this, can we do it friday? Can we do any other time? Because I had a graduate class.

D

Okay, so that was the first convening of the ethics committee.

D

um Before we started to hear each side, individual.

D

Right but your points well taken uh your points well taken there shouldn't. There should be enough.

D

Time for anyone, either party involved in this process to prepare what they need to prepare.

F

Yeah and and I think that the idea of having uh somebody who is trained in ethics.

F

Somebody who can be neutral, I don't know that a mayor's appointment is going to be neutral.

F

Necessarily would be really important because what we saw with third parties in the room.

F

And people sending messages uh with with uh the the complainant sitting behind a screen.

F

Would have been what, in a trial world would have been a mistrial.

F

It would have been misconduct during by the person um making the complaint.

F

Would be a mistrial if not an acquittal dismissal with prejudice, so uh I think we do need uh that.

F

Professional because I I don't know what what kind of people, what kind of training people have.

F

um Ethics is is a huge part of my life because I work in banking and and I have to deal with hipaa.

F

And banking regulations and ethics out the wazoo I go through a primitive, a criminal background check.

F

Multiple levels, um drug checks, uh credit checks, every time that I I get a job I have so I ethics.

D

Training is is really common for me, but I'm not saying that everybody who sits on an ethics board.

F

Is going to have similar a similar idea of what's ethical and what isn't thank you arthur.

A

um I guess it's probably fair to ask if petra huda is here if she wants, if this is why she's.

A

Here and she wants to speak since we've taken on commentary from other people as well, so I I will.

G

Feature huda, 280, south street- I don't know if I'm on, um I guess the first thing I don't know.

G

Where you are in your meeting, if you are through your um action items- and I didn't think you were.

G

I thought you had some more to go, but I will.

G

First, I guess I want to I'll address the ethics part of this in watching last last time's meeting.

G

I guess I would ask the chair cook councilor cook. I was very disappointed.

G

Just to find out that you had only invited half of the group to participate in this.

G

I mean um basically, the best process is to get input from both sides at the same time, so.

G

That was very disappointing uh and um I guess that the next thing I would ask by the proposals you're.

G

Putting forward here um who's gonna pay for this uh in listening to uh uh councillor pearson former.

G

Councillor pearson, last time um it was like the uh the public was going to pay for this.

G

Because she couldn't figure out how to do a complaint. She wanted the city staff to do this.

G

For her, that's very concerning to me, because I'm a taxpayer and when somebody brings a complaint.

G

Forward the burden like it says, is on them to prove what their complaint is actually about.

G

So that would be a question. I would ask that I think needs to be discussed here. um I guess the.

G

Other the other thing here that should be brought out that was discussed last last time in detail is.

G

I don't think you're considering the the charter here anywhere.

G

The fact that the request was made for the committee to recommend punishment or.

G

Actions over the council was a little disturbing, as it is right in the charter. The governing body.

G

Is supposed to do this, so I think you need to take all these facts into consideration and- and please.

G

Review the charter on the on that uh on that count also, um I guess I would like to make some comments.

G

On the rule, changes that um were suggested today- and I left my paper- can we finish with.

A

Let's see do do we want to go into that at this point, um I guess we're in the middle of the ethics.

A

Discussion right now- and maybe um we can do that at public comment. Okay, so.

G

I guess you need to figure out when public comment is, you guys are.

A

It's number eight on the agenda: okay, okay, thank you.

A

I just want to.

A

Say reiterate that this the ethics process is under review, we're we there are many.

A

Facets and it's a complex issue, it's it's regulated by.

A

State statute, it's regulated by our charter and it's regulated by our rules um and so.

A

We have been we've just really beginning our deliberations on this.

A

um I think, as councillor cook said,.

A

No one was invited to the meeting other than that than this committee.

A

But because it was a publicly noticed meeting.

A

Nancy pearson joined.

A

And others joined.

A

I want to find out, I want to ask if there are any other comments.

A

From the committee members about the ethics at this point,.

D

Yes, councillor lombardia, one of the other items we took up with bob sullivan was.

D

Should the council, if they receive a finding of an ethics violation, be compelled to take action.

D

And uh he ultimately said uh any council could if there were a requirement like that.

D

Could could redo the ordinance so probably in the end, it's left to the voters to.

D

Decide based on how how the city council acts and that's in the memo that he said.

D

And I think that covers the major points of what we discussed.

A

B

So just a a couple of points um so, first off I can confirm what counselor cook.

B

Stated, which was the thought, was originally to get input first from the ethics board, members.

B

um In the first instance and then to get the input from others who participated in the process,.

B

To the extent they felt comfortable discussing it in a public setting, so there was definitely no.

B

Intention to exclude it was a question of timing and letting kind of rolling it out on the slow.

B

Process of how to gain perspectives on how to make this a better process, because I think everyone.

B

Agrees we could have a better process, so there was no exclusionary intent. It was more of a sequencing.

B

Second, I too was kind of noodling over the question of you know. How do we pay for how.

B

Often would we engage in ombudsman um if we, if this is the path that the city council chooses to.

B

Go down, it certainly has advantages of bringing in that neutral third party.

B

I think what you probably still need is some what I call how, because of the cost, so assuming that.

B

The you know that cost is coming out of the the city budget. You still probably want some.

B

Housekeeping device to make sure something at least has enough merit that it warrants.

B

Some action, that's again, my first thought, subject to um you, know continuing to take.

B

uh Comment and perspectives on this um before you, you send something out, but.

B

Yeah so yeah, and certainly we may want to change the timing issues on. On the one hand, it's nice.

B

To have these wrapped up sooner rather than later. On the other hand, it is important that.

B

People feel like they have adequate time to prepare, and sometimes that can be done.

B

Simply by agreement of the parties, there may be a a situation where some parties prefer to have.

B

Matters heard sooner rather than later, to kind of air the issue and others may prefer more more.

B

Time to because they have other things going on in their life and and they're not worried about you.

B

Know they want more time to to prepare, so maybe some flexibility uh with regard to that aspect.

E

Remember marty. I would just like to apologize for the fact my camera was.

E

Off my computer- and I didn't realize until this now so I don't know what you guys are looking at, I think my tea bags, maybe some other stuff. So I apologize. Thank you. Okay,.

A

That's quite all right master. Thank you, yeah. Can I add. um I really like this idea of having an.

C

Outside ombudsman and I, like the suggestion, we've received to consider having that take place before.

C

An ethics complaint even reaches the mayor for determination um that there be some outside.

C

Review before it, even the determinist determination is made whether or not to refer it.

C

At the same time, I think the deputy city attorney is, and city manager is reasonable and suggesting.

C

That we do have some kind of mechanism before we hire anyone, because again, that is a cost and so.

C

It is something to consider um if we're paying an outside an ombudsman or to review a process there.

C

Has to be some mechanism to make sure it warrants referral to the ombudsman for recommendation.

C

For the city manager and the mayor to recommend whether or not we should even go into this.

C

Information gathering process, um but I I'd like where this is going. I like kind of this direction.

C

Of moving to an information gathering process that doesn't necessarily involve the committee doing.

C

All of that work specifically because again this is a committee of elected representatives.

C

Who don't necessarily have the direct experience on information gathering and it's a huge burden.

C

On that committee, whereas if we had somebody outside that process, which is the proposed.

C

Solution, um I think that it would be a much more fair process. Thank you and I.

A

I just correct you said city manager, but it's city attorney and the and the mayor.

A

um Any other comments on the ethics process.

A

Okay, well, uh thank you, everyone for their participation, in that this.

A

It is a it's: it's not an easy process to get a handle on, because there are so many levels of.

A

Of legal responsibility from state to uh state statute, to you know, city ordinance,.

A

So anyway, so we are working on it and I appreciate all the comments.

A

Our next agenda item is city council, contact process, email and legality of responses.

A

And um I'm not sure where this this is going, um but I know I brought that up and just in wondering.

A

About whether we have we get a lot of emails through the webpage- and I ask the question of is.

A

If, if a city councilor answers an email that is addressed to all counselors.

A

Is does that mean, or does that imply that that counselor is responding.

A

Responding for the council- and um I I that was a legal question, so I guess I will present that.

A

Deputy city manager, so the answer is no: if you're responding, you know when you're in.

B

As an individual counselor, um you know it's my view that you know that'll be enough. I think.

B

To to flag you know so you just and and I'm sure that has you know, that's quite the common practice.

B

Where individual counselors will respond back, you know, thank you for your concern and.

B

I will or will not do something with that concern, depending on on what's expressed and.

B

I don't think that's generally taken as an act of the council, because it's one city, councilor.

B

And I'm assuming you're not copying your councilmates that you're simply.

B

Responding individually to someone who's raised a concern that they'd like you to take seriously.

A

So I guess I think people are following this, but it might be noted that one should not reply all.

A

Right, correct, correct, correct just because of that. Yes, we don't want uh email conversations among a.

B

Quorum of the counselors, so that would be five or more so generally, the individual responses back to.

B

To a concern concerned resident is perfectly appropriate, but not copying. All your council mates.

B

If it's something that you think belongs on a city council agenda, there's a process for bringing it.

B

Forward great, thank you very much all right, I'm keeping a list of all the things that I think.

C

Would be valuable information for um new council orientation and also for volunteer orientation.

C

And so this is one of those those issues where I put on the list of of items that it would be very.

C

Valuable for new city councillors to always know the rules around responding to email.

C

And avoiding any violations of right to know by creating a forum accidentally. Thank you.

A

All right priorities for next meeting is our next item on the agenda. um I I presume um that.

A

Ethics is one of them, and I mean we, I mean, I think, basically, the continuation of the work we've been.

A

Doing and if, if there's anything else that we need to look at at this point, I'd be happy to hear it.

C

I think it's also a goal to um hopefully we'll have the rules. At least the majority of the rules.

C

In some format, where we can send them to the council after our next meeting, I.

C

Think several of them, the changes, are pretty minor and we could recommend.

C

Changes move forward at the council level. I know we have a few that we're still working.

C

On I think it's reasonable to send the ones that are are simple changes to the council and.

C

Then continue to work on a few of the rules that may need additional changes. Okay, good! Thank you.

A

So we should plan on meeting in person be sure to meet in person, so we can take a vote.

A

All right um public comment- and I know petra had wanted to. May I yes, please.

G

Okay, one thing: while it's still fresh in your minds, I'd like to make a comment on.

G

Council lobardi's question on the emails.

G

One thing that recently happened in the prior council is in august, the city manager.

G

And city clerks were put on the city council email list when somebody writes in as a.

G

Anybody as a resident or anything that is not apparent to them, so my question to you is in.

G

The efforts of transparency- I would like to see this listed somewhere that, when somebody writes in.

G

And says: uh write to all the counsel that they are made aware that the city manager and clerks.

G

Are also on that email? Okay, I think that's not unreasonable. Okay. The next thing I, I guess.

G

I wanna, if I may, uh give you some feedback on what happened in the rules discussions. um One thing on.

G

On the discussion uh of the order of business rule seven, um I think one of the big things.

G

That is missing. Here is the division between the governing body and the administration of the city.

G

Which happens through the city manager when you, as suggested by councilor cook, if you combine.

G

All this together, you do not have a separation of what the governing body needs to be discussing and.

G

What the city manager as the administrative um head of the city, is bringing forward, so I would.

G

I would ask you to consider and think about um the governing body being separated from.

G

The duties that are required of the city manager uh from that point, when you're discussing that.

G

Also, I guess on I guess, on rule 13 and 14. I would ask you to consider how these.

G

Are affected by robert's rules, especially in the motions and the motions for debate.

G

All of this is listed and defined in robert's rules. So I'd ask you to.

G

Take consideration of that also, and maybe not double up on on what is already there.

G

um Then we get back to taxing and spending, um I think, as far as rule number 32.

G

A lot of this is discussed in the charter on on spending. That is not in.

G

There and how appropriations work, who can move appropriations and um though the one thing that.

G

And I know a lot of people don't uh aren't aware of this. This is an accounting thing. You cannot put.

G

A liability on the books in a dollar amount when you have no idea what it is so asking um that that.

G

um Something where you can't describe the amount um and just saying it's anticipated.

G

Is not something that you can just throw in the books from the accounting perspective, so.

G

The request was made in prior council on this uh by councillor lazenby numerous times and um when.

G

The city attorney came forward. He was correct, absolutely correct in saying we can't we don't.

G

Have any measurement of this? We don't have any probability of this happening. That is right in the.

G

Accounting rules also, so I think that's something that needs to be uh needs to be said here.

G

G

Addressed by the public, um I'm glad you left that uh left that alone uh number 41.

G

That was good um in your discussion on rule 43, the comment session and the public dialogue.

G

um It seems to be um coming out here that the whole purpose of all of this.

G

Is uh to make all of the public input and all of the.

G

Sessions that you have at the convenience of the council, what seems to be lost here is the public.

G

And the public of all the purpose of all these public sessions is to get public input and.

G

The the statement I'd just like to make about the um the discussion on just making three counselors.

G

Present for any kind of public dialogue session based on their based on their workload, basically.

G

uh Is I think that is taking away from the uh knowledge base that the public would be discussing.

G

With um when you, when, when a resident comes and has a an issue, they they like to have the.

G

I guess that you would say the most knowledgeable uh counselors in attendance, so they could.

G

They could discuss this one-on-one and um myself. I would have a problem with having only three.

G

Counselors selected by the mayor at a certain time there, where you know you know you don't know.

G

The subject and you don't have you don't know if you have the most knowledgeable counselors.

G

There representing the governing body, so that would be uh that would be a concern of mine, also.

G

And I think that would be it. uh The only other question or concern I would have is.

G

Please look at the interface of the city charter on all these rules, as.

G

City deputy manager could could voice for the charter is the first rule of.

G

Business and then it comes down to uh your rules of order and your policies.

G

So that's all I have to say about that um I'd. I also um like to address um the uh the subject of.

G

Non-Public meetings and non-meetings uh in in our session we had um mr spain, we had mr lassenby and.

G

They were very quick to remind us as a council when we were going into a non-public session.

G

Or we were having a non-meeting, um the meeting of uh 222 of the council.

G

And sitting back and watching that we we had a few problems there with process and with the.

G

Timing of motions put forward the example would be uh during during the point in time where the.

G

City manager was doing her presentation on outdoor dining. A discussion ensued. uh We you.

G

The counselors went back and forth and right in the middle of that counselor bagley made a motion.

G

That motion was not on the agenda. uh You were not in a section where motions were being made.

G

That motion was discussed. Many amendments and friendly amendments were made during that time.

G

It got to the point where the words from the mayor were: we've been here for four hours. Let's.

G

Go in the back and take a recess and come out with a uh emotion here with the amendments.

G

At the advice of councillor spain and councilor lassenby, that was a non-meeting.

G

And it was a non-announced non-meeting.

G

Or you can actually say it was a non-public, because the public was.

G

Not aware that that was going to happen, it was not listed in the agenda and.

G

I urge you to look at the proceedings that happened and as you do, that um in the future.

G

Please note because the rest of us who had to abide by all this are watching.

G

And we were held to a different standard, obviously than is here now. Thank you. Thank.

A

You right um any other business, hello, hello! Oh all, right! Sorry! um I I didn't see you on there.

A

I just want one person please.

A

Zlita, why don't you go first.

D

First, thank you. um I wanna call for the time.

H

Your work on these important issues and um I want to share a little bit of my thoughts on ethics.

H

um There has been a lot of discussions on the process, but historically we fail on training.

H

Decision makers on ethics- this is historic. This is not new and um when I was in the council and.

H

I brought this up. I shared with um then city manager, john bohenko, the name of even a company.

H

Out in california, with their robust ethics, because ethics is something that evolves.

H

The situations change the challenges are different at each year and, in my view,.

H

It's it's not uh real. It's inconceivable that we have elected officials, appointed officials.

H

And department, heads and without adequate ethics, training.

H

um And when I talk about ethics training, I'm talking about it's a it's a it's a it's a mindset.

H

It's not just a paper exercise, it is a mindset, so I would like to bring that.

H

And um I I really think that the way this whole thing is run is flawed. I want to thank.

H

Counselor cook, for allowing esther to speak today on on the ethics and for the openness to take some.

H

Of the suggestions made to improve the process, I also would like to talk about public comment.

H

We know that we know this for sure that the person who controls information controls the power so.

H

Top comment has been in my experience was one of the most incredible experiences, not only because I.

H

Heard but because I knew the larger audience was listening to it, so it wasn't just a moment when.

H

We in the council were listening or receiving input from residents, but it was also a moment.

H

Where others, beyond that room beyond where we were were listening and they could think.

H

And where we have a very limited, reliable media in our city, we know that.

H

I think it's important that our citizenry has access to listen to all views in a very.

H

Transparent way, which does not happen during the dialogue and I'll give you, I I've witnessed.

H

The most obnoxious and unacceptable behavior from sitting counselors doing dialogue interrupting.

H

Residents speaking because they did not agree with what a resident was saying.

H

So it's out of sight out of mind so when those notes come from from um when the city clerk is.

H

Reading the notes from the dialogue, it has been sanitized, you have not seen the body language.

H

Of males stretching their hands with the five you know like the stop sign, like you know, uh or.

H

Raising their voices to silence people, you know, um so it's a different there. There are pluses to.

H

It I agree there are people who feel more, um you know at home if they are not in front of a camera.

H

And they are just in that environment, but if not properly set up, there are lots of things that will.

H

Be out of sight of people, and nothing is done about it I have to so. I will encourage to keep.

A

The room is no longer ours.

A

And um so I I appreciate your comments and.

A

I just I feel unfortunate, I mean just as you're saying that.

A

People are rude to people making comments. I feel like I'm being rude and making a comment, but.

A

We have people waiting for this room. This meeting has gone over and I think we have to.

A

Move to continue this meeting at our next meeting or continue this agenda at our next meeting.

B

Okay, so we need to wrap it up so that we need to wrap it up.

A

And I appreciate everyone's input. We have important issues here and- um and I do appreciate.

A

And I think we all appreciate the comments that people have made. um We have some other business.

A

um But as I say, I think we need to move that to uh our next meeting. So if I can get a motion, I.

A

Can't thank emotion. We can just adjourn so I guess we need to adjourn all right. Thank you. Everyone.

D