City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Governance Committee, 11 Sep 2023

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From YouTube: 9.11.2023 Governance Committe

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9.11.2023 Governance Committe

A

Good morning, everyone, I call this meeting of the governance committee to order.

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um We'll start with a roll call, um counselor taper, present councilor lombardi here and I'm.

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Counselor cook- and I am also here um this morning- we are going to start our agenda.

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With a review and approval of the minutes from the march 27 2023 meeting in order to.

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Do so I'm going to first share my screen, so I can share those for everyone at home.

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You'll see there's first our agenda and.

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See if I can, right after the agenda, you'll see their minutes.

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Were there any questions or comments on the minutes.

B

No, can I get a motion to approve the minutes, so is there a second second.

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Seeing no comments uh all in favor.

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Aye aye uh the minutes from the march 27 2023 meeting are approved. uh We will have minutes.

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From our last meeting, and hopefully this meeting in our next meeting of the governance committee.

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We're starting our discussion today um under old business on election disclosures, uh administrative.

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Warrants 1902 and city charter section 3.8. I will share that also for everyone at home.

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We are starting with 1902, which actually is here election candidate, financial.

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Disclosures we discussed this at our last meeting of the governance committee and.

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At that meeting we had no changes to this section 1902. We shared that with everyone at home as well.

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um By zoom- and we had public comment on section 1902 so today.

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um We brought this language forward for final consideration. um With that said, I will take any.

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Comments from the committee- if there are any comments on section 1902.

C

This is fresh, so we'll just do a little reading on the spot. Okay,.

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And if everyone will remember the changes that were made.

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um Were changes around uh contributions, making sure that all contributions are declared.

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um And under section f, yes, um it was additional an additional reference to a referral to the office.

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Of the new hampshire attorney general, specifically because there are no penalties in our ethics.

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Ordinance for those who are not elected officials or not members of the city staff so or members.

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Of committees, we were thinking, I thinking very specifically about political action committees and.

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Making sure that they're, disclosing appropriately and in section h, the other change, was making sure.

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That financial disclosures are posted to the city website for more transparency. I should note also.

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That these changes once again will not go into effect for the current election cycle. They will go.

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Into effect for the 2025 election cycle, whatever happened to the disclosure of expenses rather than.

B

Contributions um that is currently a requirement is my understanding and and section b.

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Requires that cumulative total, not itemized, if you're expenditures are over a hundred dollars.

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And the current form, I should note for 2023- was already altered by the city clerk's office to.

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Reflect that requirement so um so there are changes from 2021 those changes to just the.

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Disclosure form were made by the city clerk to be it consistent with the current ordinance as.

A

It sits now, okay, good, because I I remembered there wasn't that wasn't on the form before I.

B

Just wanted to make sure that, yes, that was definitely altered for this election cycle.

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And then for the next election cycle, we would be asking for additional disclosures, um making sure.

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That all contributions, even those that are made in materials or services, are disclosed.

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Are there any comment, other common.

C

No looks like if there are no other additional comments on section 1902. I would ask for a.

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Motion to move section 1902 forward to the city council for review I'll move that I'll second.

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All in favor aye section 1902 will go. I will try.

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To get it into the city council packet for our next meeting on september, 18th.

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And I will request first reading for that first meeting in october.

B

It would be great to have our form attached to that rather than this. Yes, yes, just for their so.

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That they're aware I'm happy to do that, provide some help yeah, because our form's, different yeah.

A

Yeah, okay, okay, that's the sample form from the state, the state requirements and and.

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Those that's the form that's currently sitting in our ordinance now, but that's just an easy.

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um Alteration: that's not something that we think have to vote to change.

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We just have to put it in there. I can't communicate with the city clerk's office.

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Okay, so with that done, um we will now start reviewing again.

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uh Additional considerations in the city council draft ethics policy. I should note that it's.

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Really important to remind everyone at home that a policy provides guidance for the council and.

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Members of our committees and and staff it does not, it is not an ordinance and it's not part of.

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The ethics ordinance so therefore, it would not be punishable under the ethics ordinance violations.

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It is, it is a policy to provide guidance, so um we are still very much in the draft stages.

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Of working on this policy, I'm going to stop, sharing and share the policy as it stands today.

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There were minor changes to the policy from our last meeting. Add in two different sections.

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We had discussed initially sections 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3, but then there were two additions.

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Section 1.4 and 1.5 out of our last meeting of the governance committee and where we can.

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Discuss every single one of these provisions, but let me first go through and let everyone.

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At home know that we added section 1.4, which is a section on recusal and getting advice from the.

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Legal department, around recusal and sharing that opinion at the council level before a question.

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um Is voted and, and then section 1.5 is around non-metings. This language is very preliminary.

A

So um you'll still have to go back and review that language as well and legal will have to review it.

C

Yeah 1.4 came out of our discussion of.

C

If there were the appearance of conflict.

C

Should we leave it to members of the body to raise that and have the body decide.

C

Whether it's the council or the police, commissioner, the fire commission and then.

C

Bob and I got together and we we decided the real intent is.

C

um To get clarity about whether it's an apparent conflict or a real conflict and get that opinion.

C

And have that opinion ready and make it share that opinion with the council and public.

C

Before any actions taken, so that seemed to be the neatest solution to it and that can be debated. You.

C

Know we're not taking away the governing body's right to debate that at all right.

A

It's providing additional guidance here on on course, of action right if, if a counselor- and I.

A

Think it's I think, what's inherent here as well, is that this is if a counselor doesn't want to.

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Just automatically recuse on an issue because you always just have to you, don't have to confer with.

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The legal department to recuse at any any moment in time more when you have a question or a concern.

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You think you should be voting on something, but you don't you're concerned that you know there's.

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An appearance of conflict of interest- and you want to make sure that it is truly ethical to.

A

Vote on that issue, that's when you would go to legal and confirm with legal right and I think.

C

By putting it in a policy, we make it clear that it's say the city councilor's obligation if he.

C

Knows that's on the agenda to seek the opinion and come prepared to have that opinion. Shared.

C

Which enables the government you know the governing body to not waste more time on it.

C

It's a very clear cup case. I think, there's also a fine line too there. It's not the council's job.

A

To police the other counselors that job when it comes to ethics goes to first, the ethics.

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Investigative officer and then the ethics board, so there are challenges there as well.

A

Because we don't police one another and the governing body could be wrong. Correct, correct.

A

um I think that's correct, I mean the first line is, of course, policing of the individual.

D

Right because my my only thought with 1.4, I like it because it's nice to know when these.

D

Issues come up beforehand. I could certainly see the instance where a city councilor may.

D

As the conversation evolves on a particular topic says, oh, I didn't think about it, but I.

D

May have a conflict given how the conversation evolves or an amendment that gets raised. So maybe.

D

You want to build in a little room in there for those times when you're sitting on the deus and.

D

Maybe like I said, because an amendment is offered or something that that all of a sudden there is.

D

A conflict potential conflict that arises you may want, instead of the written opinion.

D

You might want a verbal opinion if there is, you know, time and ability to do it on the fly right.

D

um Because I could see that happening sure see that one we know beforehand, but.

D

Recognizing that sometimes doesn't happen, so you might I'll put a question here around that.

A

um In red, if there is a question question that arises during council discussion,.

D

um Inquiry should be made of.

D

The city attorney; okay, so I just say the counselor shell.

A

Shell request an opinion yep from the city attorney.

A

Prior to engaging in further discussion yeah there, you go.

A

And we can have, we can discuss that language and have that. Does.

A

That seem reasonable, we can have, then the legal department go through is going to.

A

Have to go through all this language anyway, again, one more time so um so.

B

In that situation, if there's an amendment to an ordinance, um the counselor should recuse.

B

Themselves from that amendment vote, but they then have to recuse themselves from the entire yeah.

B

Okay likely, I think likely, but it may be very fact specific. I'm just trying to put enough.

D

Yeah, I know I'm in there to. I see why clear you're looking for we're gonna a legal opinion, preferably.

D

Written if you know it's coming in advance and if not then let's deal with it out in the open.

C

These are our policy guidelines, not right our ordinance yep, it's not city law. It's it's. How.

C

The council should govern itself and I think it's helpful to provide this kind of guidance to.

A

um City counselors, because it's it's challenging when you don't when the.

A

Only guidance is the ethics ordinance. The other assortment is just not provide.

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um Very very much guidance at all process. Yes, it's just exactly what you shouldn't do.

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um And it's always not it's not always clear when those issues would arise.

A

um So we can ask the legal department to to look at this.

A

Section 1.5 is was added to handle the issue of non-meetings.

A

um And I want to make sure legal looks at this, um because the council shall not meet unless the.

A

Meeting is duly noticed. Well, what does julie mean, so I want to make sure that they they.

A

Look at it and make sure that we have the right language there. It might be legally noticed or.

D

Well, we generally make sure that all of our meetings are legally noticed, recognize that under.

D

State law: there are certain emergency situations. You know some catastrophe, heaven forbid where.

D

You might need to call the city council together for less than 24 hours, so there are some very.

D

Narrow exceptions um so just recognize. The state law on you know recognizes. There are.

D

There are sometimes conditions that we can't foresee that might require some exceptions, but.

D

They're they're all spelled out in the statue. I think if you wanted to continue with the current.

D

Practice, which is to whenever practical, we notice the non-meetings of legal counsel.

D

We can write some language. If that's the practice you want to continue, then I think.

D

We can write some language that is expressed about that. I thought that was your your big.

D

Issue, which is to make sure that the current practice continues. I I think the goal here was.

A

To make sure that we don't have meetings that are not noticed, properly have non-meetings of.

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The council am I right, non-meetings of the council that are not non-public meetings, but.

A

They're just non-meanings without do notice, there were. There was a practice for a while.

C

2013 14 15 16. of having non-public meetings that were not noticed and they were called.

C

Non-Meetings for legal advice: yes right because technically that's and state statute and that's.

C

Not in compliance with rsa 91a, we would disagree with that, but that's we're. Okay working the legal.

D

Department's okay, working with the current practice of this and prior city councils,.

D

To do the notices, as we have been doing for legal meetings, and I think we could draft some language.

D

That encompasses that yeah. Well, I think there was a policy past. Wasn't there forbidding on meetings.

C

That was our correspondence this morning from.

C

Former assistant mayor who I think I don't ask that I don't know if it was a formal.

D

City council policy such as we, you know like you, have up here right. There may have been a.

D

I don't recall one being in there, but there may be. I can go back there, in which case we.

D

Could grab that language and just meld it into here right added here.

A

Yeah, I think the goal is to have to have meetings structured the way they are now currently, which.

E

We have more transparency, yes, non-public meeting. It is noticed. The subject's noticed.

A

Right and the same clearly, our public council.

A

Meeting sir yeah, I mean, I think 1.5 as you have it now is the right path.

C

um Here's what the former assistant mayor says.

C

The council agreed with my motion to set a policy to discourage the non-meetings practice.

C

And ever since has not held non-meetings, and then he cites one exception.

C

um Non-Meetings are not needed because the council.

C

Can run and has successfully met under the provisions of non-public meetings ever since.

C

um And he urges us to make it clear that such meetings should not be held.

C

And I agree with that. You know you know as a because I remember that incident and the newspaper.

C

uh Heard about a week later, because it was completely.

C

Not noticed in any way keep in mind, though, some of the flexibility that.

D

You have when it comes to meeting with legal counsel. Is that, for example, if.

D

You started in well, I suppose you could continue the meeting.

D

But I was thinking sometimes you might want to have a non-meeting with legal counsel. After your.

D

City council meeting because issues came up that needed to be addressed, but um so that's.

D

Sometimes the little the flexibility that the law gives you you might not want to entirely.

D

Give away if you had a time constraint, but you know we'll work with whatever you'd like.

D

To do and happy to grab some language and I put it in there yeah and I think.

C

It's always tempting to say: let's do this out of the public eye. There is.

C

A provision in rsa 91a to do that, but I think the spirit of 91a is: do everything in public accept.

C

Legal counsel, personnel, real estate, these specific exceptions.

C

And, and when you do those exceptions, you need to notice that it's going to happen in non-public.

C

And I think that's a that's a a pretty good, clear path to go and.

C

And you know there was a lot of discussions in the past about non meetings and and.

C

They were, they voted to discourage them. I would agree with that.

B

I guess I wonder, I mean, is it needed there are non-meetings really needed, or can we just? Could we.

B

Well, if you go to non-public, yeah that has to be noticed is what you're saying.

B

Whereas a non-meeting doesn't have to be noticed correct I mean I appreciate the.

C

If you're trying to buy a piece of real estate and there's a sudden counteroffer.

C

The council has to deliberate on that within 24 hours.

C

um But you know, I think you can tell the seller.

C

We're we're a political body, we have to notice this and it's going to take 24 hours.

B

I'll write what you want, so uh you know if you wanna grab some lime. If you want.

D

Me to grab have legal- you know put some language in here that you can look at or.

D

The next meeting, the next iteration of this.

A

I think that we're all going in the direction of not having non-meanings and and if. If we.

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Expected there to be additional, an additional need to confer with legal counsel in the course.

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Of a public meeting when we started the meeting with legal counsel in non-public, then, instead of.

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Closing the meeting and sealing the minutes at the beginning, we could suspend the non-public meeting.

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And if we need to go back, we can go back to it and then, at the end of public meeting, we.

A

Can close the non-public interesting? So there is some flexibility there. I think.

A

The bigger challenges is when, in the middle of a meeting when you didn't anticipate needing to.

A

Come back to a non-public, but I think that you can. You can always have a motion to reconsider.

A

And reopen the non-public session well and it's a policy, so you could always if there were some.

D

Exceptional circumstances that justified it in your own minds as policy makers, then.

D

That's always your right under the law, so we can suspend the policies and the rules yeah. So.

D

You can make the policy be as I just don't like the the idea of non-meeting, and it just doesn't.

C

Yeah well with me, and you know, as somebody who spent years in the fourth estate.

C

The idea that a public body's doing something meeting deliberating with no notice.

C

And press and the public could never know. You know that that's troubling just the term of non-meeting.

B

Is almost an oxymoron, you know it's right and it I can see why I mean it's. It is a serious concern.

A

um There are many um municipalities, and I'm not saying portsmouth does this, but there are.

A

Many that I've witnessed in new hampshire that have had that have a common practice.

A

Of having non-meetings- and um I think that that is challenging um for the public, because if, if a.

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Council regularly meets or a select word regular, meets in a non-meeting and then comes forward and.

A

um Does not have discussion in public. It becomes very, very difficult for the public to understand.

A

How decisions were being made and so um and that's the whole intent of 91a it's to have public.

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Discussion um not having discussion in private unless you're, conferring with legal counsel.

A

Or you're making decisions on employment contracts or real estate, I mean there's, there's very.

A

Specific things they're outlined it's reasonable to do in non-public, setting for a clear reason, so.

A

I think um I appreciate councilor tabor's unique view on this. It is very helpful well and- and I.

C

Think all of us in the city went through the weber case, um where information had to be pried out.

C

um And there were many efforts to have it settled and I was of the view that.

C

Settling it would not be in the public interest, and the public should know, and.

C

Others may have disagreed then, and they still disagree, but.

C

C

There's nothing wrong with sunshine.

D

So legal should take a look at that, along with the other language with that intention and.

D

Get you something yes and I will. um I will actually highlight this language as well, for legal.

A

Market is friend for legal to review um and I want to go back to the first parts of this conflict of.

A

Interest policy because we've discussed them on a few occasions. um The first is around not exerting.

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Undue influence on quasi-judicial board members in their official capacity. um The second is.

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Not attending other counselors meetings when you could inadvertently create a quorum.

A

Voting on matters pertaining to your own personal reputational interest.

A

Including issues of ethics and conflict of interest, this is trying to capture that piece.

A

um That concern out of uh conflict of interest and in the ethics ordinance that that legally is.

A

It is it's not defensible from a legal standpoint to.

A

Prosecute somebody for reputational interest, but it is not ethical, so we want to capture that yeah.

A

um And then the two provisions that we've just discussed is there anything else that.

A

We're missing that we want to add and ask legal to look at I. I guess one of the things that came up.

B

In public comment was the um duly noticed and what that means, specifically, as the you know,.

B

Newspaper and online the world changes yeah. You know it's. uh It's sometimes hard to get a.

B

Meeting noticed in the newspaper doing- and I know, we've talked about having other avenues as that.

B

I just I I don't know that everyone was happy with what we said at that point. I'm trying to remember.

B

The meeting specifically so well, I have a question around this too. What is the state law around.

A

Newspaper notice, specifically um print public publication notice and the reason I asked this.

A

Is there are a lot of cities and towns that don't have a daily newspaper, so it depends.

D

On what kind of notice your um discussing so for our city council meetings for notice of a meeting.

D

It's just two public places and your city website can be one of those public places.

D

Now we obviously generally try and get our meeting notices out in a variety of.

D

Formats, it's in the e-newsletter that people can sign up for it's on our website. We do physical.

D

Notices, usually here at city hall, as well as the library other than our hearing notices.

D

um The hearing notices we do depends on what type of hearing it is. We do publish because.

D

That's in our charter now land use board has its own set and I don't want you know: let's not.

D

Confuse those kind of live in their own place, but our administrative code and I think our charter.

D

As well off the top of my head, both, I know our administrative code has some requirements for.

D

Publication in a local newspaper and at some point we are probably going to have to look at that.

D

Sort of differently and evaluate what options might be out there, because we.

D

Find that certainly we still under our ordinance have to publish you know our.

D

Bids, I can tell you that's where no one goes for our for our notices of bids. There's dodge reports.

D

People have, you know, feeds on our website, you know so they get notices, so they are.

D

Not looking at a at an online newspaper by and large and often we are just sending out to we.

D

Think prospective bidders who we know of might have an interest because that's that's the only.

D

Way, they're they're going to know about our rfp or our bid is because we push out a notice um to.

D

Potential vendors to try and get as much interest as we can in in our bids and solicitations. So.

D

Yeah, so it's a conversation across.

D

Boards but our general meeting notices do not have to be published in the newspaper.

D

The general ones, but the bids and the public hearings there used to be rsas that that had.

C

To be in newspapers of general circulation, I don't know if the statutes still exist for the land use.

D

Boards, there's still some of that language for public hearings, yes, which has caused an issue, but.

D

Some of our obligations are not state obligations there sitting in our own ordinances and charter.

D

Right, I just think of as the portsmouth herald becomes more and more usa today.

B

um You know it's not a local paper yeah. I just wonder about what we do about that right. Yeah.

A

With challenging publishing times too, I'm kind of wondering what point yeah do we discuss with the.

A

Newspaper alternative, not print publication, but online publication with them and what the time.

A

Frames are for online publication in seacoast online versus print publication so that that's.

A

Another level of that discussion because they might be able to turn around an online.

A

Notice faster than a print notice: well, they do local news faster that way. Yes, the day faster, yeah.

B

Is it um and it's expensive right? It's one of those last remaining legal monopolies.

C

That's for revenue, maximization yeah that and obituaries right.

A

So that's that's the challenge so so we might have to revisit that. I mean clearly there. There won't.

A

Be a charter change for another two years, at least because it's not on the ballot this time around.

A

But within two years time I think that probably will be a very important discussion that we.

A

Need to have what we might be able to do at some point is kind of put a list together of.

D

Those items that we still send to print media and what their.

D

Statutory requirement is like: where does it come from our own requirements, or is it from state law.

D

And there have been some attempts to kind of do some workarounds at state law, so we're kind.

D

Of looking at that for some of our land use boards, I think that would be an incredibly.

A

Helpful chart to have just in general, and just even for the public's information that these.

A

Are the requirements for notice, because I think a lot of people um have different expectations than.

A

What the legal requirements are for notice and the city generally goes kind of above and beyond.

A

We try requirement yeah, so um that might be helpful, for I think everyone.

C

Do want the public to know yes yeah and, as the.

C

As the newspaper ceases to be a dominant medium.

C

And the whole media space is atomized. How do you make the public aware? How do they know.

C

I mean that's the that's the obligation the city has, I think.

A

I think there are real questions around I mean. Can you publish uh notices.

A

On the city television station on uh on our youtube channel can.

A

You have notices that come up. Can you there's some other? I guess alternative.

A

Options there as well yeah, we use the social media venue. um Channel 22 gets a little trickier, but.

D

um Just because we don't kind of monitor that in quite the same way,.

D

um That's why we're kind of looking at you know with our what just before you in terms of the.

D

Ordinance update for how we distribute information on snow bands in part, because we want to find the.

D

Most effective methods but consistent because you don't want one medium to say it starts.

D

At seven o'clock and another medium to because of a you, know, inputting typo or something says.

D

You know nine o'clock so trying to find those methods of communication and and make them as.

D

Consistent and easy to push out, but we are looking at multiple mediums always because of the.

D

Recognition of a change in how people get their information um and trying to give people means.

D

To sign up for here's, the means that I would like to to get my information you know. Is it.

D

That email that comes every week or is it a push notification so trying to be more.

D

Responsive to people's differing ways of taking in important information relative to the municipality.

D

And I think that's where we all have to keep working and seeing what tools are out there.

C

And it's worth asking the newspaper it's worth checking the size of their audience.

C

Because it, it probably is more durable than we all think you know if they're printing.

C

Three thousand papers in portsmouth two readers per paper: that's six thousand.

C

That may still be hard to beat with a you know, a grab bag of other media.

C

That's part of the homework.

A

And if you add the online component, which I know is larger than the paid circulation, the print.

C

Circular they have a a very, very good reach, but I'm obviously five. I think it depends what people.

D

Are looking for, I think, if they're looking for the headlines or you know the local sports team.

D

I'm not sure that, for purposes of public notices that that's where they're looking.

D

For their information, I think they're, they know where to find it on the city website or.

D

They know to look for it in the emails that come out every monday. I think for meeting notices. I.

D

I you know, maybe that becomes a flash vote. How do you get your informational meeting, notices.

D

um To try and get some feedback, but my guess is meeting notices are, are.

D

They're picking up their sources elsewhere, other than going to that section of the newspaper that.

D

Is for meeting notices? Yes, because it doesn't pop yeah it'd, be a great flash fold question yes, so.

A

Okay, um the last thing I wanted to raise here that is not included but has been.

A

Raised a few times with this committee by a few different individuals is the.

A

Possibility of having a whistleblower policy for the city um specifically around, I think.

A

It's been raised around conflict of interest because of concerns arising.

A

In the past, around conflict of interest and and having counselors before act as whistleblowers.

A

Should we be considering separately.

A

The whistleblower policy, and if we do, should we reference it here.

A

You know a common reference like for concerns around whistleball or see the whistlebler.

A

Policy, or who do you want it to govern this? Is your city council policy for how you want your.

D

City councils and elected officials to behave exactly that's the same city, councilors and.

A

Elected officials- okay, just yes, so the employees we have a whole set and I would have to come back.

D

To you, with all the policies we have already internally, okay right, I would assume that.

A

Our human resources department has pretty thorough um documentation around with the lower policies.

A

For staff it's worth asking, I can report back to you because we have policies for reporting. You.

D

Know when you think there's you know some theft or fraud in them, but I'll put them may not be for.

D

The next meeting, given that we have other things, but I can for employees we'll I'll get you some.

A

I would think the reason that this would arise under a conflict of interest and this question.

A

Would arise here is that when the council is meeting in non-public, if counselors choose to.

A

Discuss something that was not noticed, or that was not on the agenda um in that private session.

A

um Making sure that someone feels like that they have the authority to raise that publicly.

A

If there's a question of what has been discussed by counselors.

A

Yeah, I'm disclosing getting in trouble for disclosing something in non-public.

A

You see what I'm saying if something is not noticed specifically.

A

Or, if that's when it's arisen in the past noticed, but there's.

C

If it is noticed and there's a vote that, for example, to um break a contract.

C

Or if there's a decision to um fire somebody um without ever hearing from that person,.

C

You know, should we have a whistleblower policy well,.

C

What can go wrong when the council is meeting in non-public that somebody says.

C

The public should know this.

C

That that's the question and you know human beings don't make mistakes.

B

I mean I don't know that we've had non-public meetings without.

B

Legal counsel: well, you haven't, we haven't, but there may have been some.

A

A while back yeah- and um it seems to me, if there's legal counsel at non-public meetings.

B

um It's incumbent on the legal department to intervene in something like that.

C

C

But that legal advice can be disregarded.

C

The question is.

C

Do you expose it to the light of day.

C

It's a question to weigh pretty seriously and thoughtfully, because.

C

The laws around non-public are quite strict.

C

For not disclosing what goes on in non-public with penalties correct so.

C

Barring any whistleblower provision.

C

Well, even with a whistleblower provision, you still might be violating rsa 91a by disclosing anything from a non-public.

C

That's a question: you know, I can add it to the list. If somebody wants to blow the whistle.

C

But that's revealing what happened in non-public.

D

Let's, let's take that one back and we will give that some reflection.

A

All right, I've added it to the list. Okay, oh my list is getting long here.

A

This is just an issue. That's come up um on more than one occasion in a public comment here. Also.

A

At the council level, and also in emails that this committee, I believe, has received.

A

So I want to make sure that we do think about it very seriously that we consider.

A

When it would be appropriate, particularly as it has that intersection with a non-public meeting,.

D

Just trying to think of the hypotheticals so that, as we.

D

Try and fashion hear the consequences and here's perhaps the way through them.

D

Correct again, I think that's that is the current turn. I've added that question here. Okay, um I am.

A

Going to go ahead and if there's, if there are no further discussions around the policy for today,.

A

Until we wait until we get more input from legal, I'm going to go ahead and stop sharing.

A

um Well, the only other.

C

Hypothetical you could explore. This is more along the mundane, typical.

C

um Abuse of city resources, corruption, type of thing- you know.

C

It's getting paved and somebody gets their driveway paved along with it or.

C

Somebody gets some special service.

C

But that's that's more. You need a whistleblower.

C

Policy for employees, I would think well and there's also a remedy.

A

In the ethics ordinance for things like that in filing an ethics complaint, you know the thing that.

A

I was thinking of that that around whistleblower policy is, if you don't feel like you, want to.

A

File an ethics complaint against someone but say someone is against the charter provision that city.

A

Councils are to interact with the city manager directly, I'm not city staff right. Someone is.

A

Working through on the councils working through a city staff member to get around the city manager.

A

And going directly to staff, that's a charter violation and you could file an ethics complaint.

A

But there is no financial benefit around this, so needing having a whistleblower.

A

File, a whistle or complaint would make maybe more sense. There yeah, maybe- and I just want to point.

C

Out, too, that none of that has ever happened in the city of portsmouth. That's the kind of thing.

C

That has happened in other communities and I guess way back 50 60 years ago there was a city manager.

C

There were some ethical issues, but nothing.

C

That's you know, the purpose of this is to keep it that way and to make sure that the.

A

Public knows these things don't happen here yeah, and we have policies that prevent that so that.

A

Makes sense: okay, I'm going to stop sharing that for everyone at home um and I'll bring back up.

A

um Actually, I want to make sure that um the next item on our agenda is the sidewalk policy and I.

A

Want to make sure that I have it here for um for everyone to see, um I emailed it to you, kate. Yes,.

A

So I'm gonna open it up here on my computer and then I'm going to share it.

A

So let me go back to zoom, so I can share my screen and everyone will have the sidewalk policy.

A

In front of them,.

A

This is the draft policy. um Basically, our current policy with some potential changes.

A

So my unfortunately, my computer doesn't like tracks changes and doesn't show them. So I'm.

A

Gonna have to go through this um line by line and tell everyone at home what this looks like.

B

um You can, you know, have a pdf of this. I do not, unfortunately,.

A

um But that's okay. We will um the first two, whereas sections are left the same.

A

The third section is crossed out, and this is the new language in front of you and the length it.

A

Used to say a request for a variance from the sidewalk policy regarding standard materials in.

A

Typical sidewalk and driveway details exhibit b will be made to the director of public works.

A

The new language proposed is, it is not desirable to have a patchwork of.

A

Brick and concrete sidewalks, rather an entire block, shall be treated uniformly.

A

So- and this is coming out of our discussions here- around individual houses having to request.

A

To keep brick sidewalks and pay to keep rides their brick sidewalks, and so then you only.

A

Have one house with a brick sidewalk in a block um and then the next section was also removed.

A

um Which was, whereas there may be additional costs for variances from this policy that will be paid.

A

By the benefiting parties, so that was also removed. I think there were some concerns here around.

A

Fairness um and those who could pay got to keep sidewalks and those who.

A

Could not did not so there's some definite concerns around what is fair.

A

um And the additional language, then, is now. Therefore, this was here before section a.

A

Whenever sidewalks and then the language added is within the historic district are.

A

Constructed that was moved up, that language was moved up from section one. um They will be brick.

A

Except for the following streets and you'll see those listed. Those do not change.

A

um And there's additional language in section two here, where practicable the accepted streets above.

A

Shall have brick border practical means consistent with american disability act, the requirements.

A

Rights of way, availability and other limitations. So that's the additional added language.

A

Here, so the goal, then, would be: let's make sure that we have a brick apron.

A

On these streets, these streets are in within the historic district.

A

um So at a minimum rick apron if they're they're, not greek, sidewalks,.

A

um But there will be areas where that is not practical. Just so everyone knows, because the.

A

Sidewalk is too narrow, yep and I think that's an important, important reminder.

A

That we have to have access accessibility first as a priority um and then in section b.

A

um Sidewalk material for sidewalks are located outside the historic districts which have been.

A

Historically, been brick will be replaced, as described in paragraph a two and you'll see.

A

A2, where practical the acceptance treats shall have a brick border, so the goal is there.

A

If you've traditionally had brick sidewalks, you won't lose your brick completely. I was my.

D

Attempt at a middle road for you guys to discuss yeah yeah. Whatever you decide you want and then.

A

You'd end up with a brick apron at a minimum like islington like islington street, so that was gold.

A

Because you're, not in the historic district, um but many houses don't want to give up their brick.

A

Which is completely you know if you move into a house near perfect, sidewalk and.

A

Yeah sometimes expect that not to change.

A

um And then the last language, in section um from the last language here, where a sidewalk for a.

A

Particular block is located both within historic district and outside the district. The entire block.

A

Should be brick and on your hard copies, it says clock, but it should be block and I changed it in.

D

The electronic one, but I was saving paper and did not reprint. Yes, yes, but it is block yeah.

A

So does that help everyone understand? That would mean you know when we were doing state.

A

Street sidewalks the council voted to go ahead and keep brick where there was brick.

A

um So that we wouldn't divide a block in half as well there if there was brick um in one area.

A

That we would continue brick throughout that entire block. We wouldn't have a shift mid block.

A

um And other provisions have not changed, so don't we want to say or a sidewalk for.

C

A particular block is located within this door and outside and is currently brick.

C

Tire shelby break uh run that by megan, which paragraph were you on and where to.

C

On tottenham c, let's see yes is currently he was adding. Currently brick was that the intent.

D

um It really is sort of where you want to go with this, so I I just took simple.

C

So you just said: we're not going to have mongol blocks that yeah have both yeah.

A

Yeah, the brick sidewalks will extend slightly outside the historic district. Essentially, yes, in.

A

Every location, yes, that will be more costly. I mean that's the consequence of that. On the other hand, I.

D

What I really took away is uniformity, fairness and tried to again give you something to talk about in.

D

um See how this kind of fits with your thinking and.

A

Yes, counselor david did we ever I know we had asked. I had asked.

C

To know the amount of brick sidewalk outside the historic district that we now have that pre-exists.

C

So I talked to peter rice um about that and he rattled off a bunch of streets that he thought.

D

Were there were only a couple that he saw as sort of kind of coming up against? um Shall we.

D

Say a little more brick based on what's been done, you know when you look at the next say, 20 years.

D

Because you know, we've already redone some and they're not going to be touched again in the next.

D

20 years and who knows by then maybe we'll have a different paving material that is looks like.

D

Brick but works better than brick, um so so he he took a quick look at this this morning and he was.

D

Comfortable with this draft, but I'd love to give him more time to kind of digest what this would.

D

Mean if he wants to send someone out in the field, but he wasn't, he didn't, have an immediate concern.

D

With this in terms of consequences, now the brick border or the yeah brick apron, if you want to.

D

Call it that you know it's more expensive than concrete, but it's not as expensive as all brick.

D

So it was trying to find that balance point um so, and he definitely is in favor of uniformity.

D

So, whichever way you're gonna go make it the whole block, you know, don't do the piecemeal um so.

D

Yeah, you can get his further sense on that, if you'd like for the next meeting but well, I think.

C

As we were deliberating about it, the question arises of well how much outside the historic.

C

District is there, are we talking about three city blocks, four city blocks, ten city blocks and.

C

What's the delta in cost- and this may be, it may be relatively cheap to just grandfather all the brick.

C

That's where I was coming from yeah it was. It was hard to pin them down because.

D

It means someone going out and walking each of the streets, which is actually.

D

Takes more time than tom watson did that every street of the city did you know that.

D

Is welcome to do this with the list you want to send them out, I'm happy to send them out.

D

But we didn't have time to to do a street by street, but the thought was it wasn't too.

D

At least in the next foreseeable you know for the foreseeable future. It wasn't too much.

B

I have a question and how I guess- and I did get some of the answers to the other.

D

Questions that came up at the last meeting, good, a definition of a block, for example. Now, if you.

B

As just an example aldrich road- it's I mean it doesn't fall into this, but if it did.

B

On our side of the street, there are no side streets, so is the whole road.

B

The block, or is the block defined by side streets on the other side.

D

That's a good question feel good as things like that, where there are no side streets on one side right right,.

D

C

I mean I took from dave adams input to us from the historical perspective whether it's 300 year.

C

Old stones or whether it's you know, 150 year old, brick, that's part of the character of the city.

C

So shouldn't preserving that character of the city, be the.

C

Rebuttable presumption and if so, how much does it cost and how much is there.

D

The cost today is not going to be the cost five years from now, so I.

D

I think it's that's why it's been a little challenging to kind of do this in the.

E

Oh, what is this really going to cost if we change this now.

D

We could you know originally, this policy did have language that says: stuff comes back to the city.

D

Council, it's just you have to make that decision early in the design process. So when you bid it out.

D

You spit it out with with the alternate with the correct material.

D

um As to the historic pavers, because I know that came up um so according to peter rice, the city.

D

Is obligated to maintain the historic pavers and has done so on prior occasions, because the pavers.

D

Are not ada compliant? The city is required to maintain alternative ada access, such as.

D

Ensuring that the sidewalk on the other side of the street from the pavers is accessible, so they.

D

Take seriously the requirement to make sure that those pavers are, to some degree retained.

D

Even if they're slightly, maybe reset um or utilized somewhere along there and but.

D

Then sensitivity to the ada accessibility piece. So that's the answer on the papers.

A

So, generally, um are there other thoughts about this idea that.

A

You know we'd go to a hybrid in areas where there have been brick outside the historic district.

A

That would still mean that some residents are losing their brick sidewalks.

A

And by doing this, this way you remove the option of them, paying to keep them.

A

Right, that's the big thing about this redraft yeah, trying to find a way to.

D

Meet that uniformity of at least area.

C

A

It's a tough decision. You know like what what makes the most sense and financially it's it's.

A

Better for us to go to concrete sidewalks, um but they're, definitely and and from an ada.

A

Perspective concrete cycle so probably better as well, um but from an aesthetic point of view. You.

C

Know in a historical: yes, if you have a historic home outside the historic district, and you have.

A

A brick sidewalk, you probably want to keep your brick sidewalk, um I mean you can create. Yes, there.

D

Was here a relief, you know you can go to the city council, it's just. Do you want that and if so, it's.

D

Going to come early in the process, and and how often do you want to see these on which streets.

D

I mean we could. I was on google earth last night trying to see how easy it was taking.

D

You know pete's, you know quick list of you know cabot and some of the other ones and.

D

And take a look at them, but you know that may be the the only way to to really do this. And if we're.

D

Not if we don't have a project coming up in the next five years, not a rush, there's, not a rush.

A

But we want to be mindful too some of those streets, one of those streets will say cabot. I.

A

Don't know if it was cabot or that paid for their own brick, sidewalks the whole street.

A

So the idea another option that we would come in and now right.

D

Yeah, that was recent, though yeah, that was decent. So that's the right not going to be changed any.

D

Time in the near future, I think that was pete's thought you know. Were you like linda? What's not.

D

Maybe what's in the schedule for the next five to ten years, and that really is your.

D

um Where you want to set your policy to some degree, I always think, though, you never know.

A

With bricks sidewalks, they dvw replaces the brick sidewalks on gate street. Just a.

A

Few years ago, and then they had spalding from the top of the bricks because of that batch of bricks.

A

Not being ideal and they had to come back and replace it. So if something like that happened.

A

um Right when no one was anticipating, yes having their sidewalk pulled up.

A

And replaced that it wasn't on schedule, um I think they might be upset, so we could create.

D

A list within here of the streets that have recently been bricked that are outside of the.

C

Historic district, so that's pretty easily yeah just thinking you know we have the we.

D

Have this nice little list where it's concrete, but within the historic district you could make.

D

A list that of streets that you know the whole block is brick or the whole street.

D

Is brick and it would remain brick, that's an option and as much as I know that ads work.

A

um To the plate for the city, I think it might be valuable to do that. Okay, because we all we.

A

List the exceptions to break. Maybe we need to list the exceptions, the other way yeah as well.

D

So list the existing brick outside the htc.

A

And then that resolves that problem yeah as well yeah.

C

And it gives us scope exactly. Okay, do we have any other questions on this today? I.

A

Mean clearly, this is going to keep coming back, we're not there yet yeah, oh yeah, it's a start.

A

It is it's a good start, yeah.

A

um So everyone's comfortable with that.

A

I'm going to go back to our agenda.

A

um So we will have more answers on the sidewalk policy at our next meeting.

A

um The the next thing to discuss on our agenda is uh more conflict of interest.

A

The reason it's listed here is that this is the first time we've had a robust discussion.

A

Around it, administrative ordinance, 1901, which is municipal officials disclosures. This is.

A

The section that provides in some ways the teeth to the.

A

Disclosure requirements that we've been working on through the ethics policy and even that we've.

A

Been talking about in our conflict of interest policy, the ethics ordinance, so um I'm going to.

A

Share that right now with those at home, this is section 1901, municipal official disclosures.

A

um And I want us to go through this generally section by section and see where everyone stands.

A

On each section and where we have questions or concerns.

A

So clearly, section a will um need to change because we will have to have.

A

Maybe another reference to as amended here on section a.

A

Or change the as amended date, at least.

A

A

This is definitions. uh This is an important section, um because.

A

Many people don't realize who's included in this policy.

A

All members of the city council, school board, police, commission.

A

Fire commission planning board zoning board adjustment and historic district commission.

A

So our elected officials and the members of our landia sports.

A

A

Gain of recurrent benefit, usually measured in money.

A

Capital assets- this is another important definition.

A

S and investments in portsmouth based businesses, businesses owned.

A

By portsmouth residents and businesses, which transact business with the city of portsmouth,.

A

All real estate holdings and interest in real estate located in the city of portsmouth.

A

Then there's financial disclosure statement.

A

Written statement given under oath.

A

And this is where I think we're going to start having a lot of questions.

A

You list your primary source of annual income and capital assets.

A

You don't have to disclose anything under ten thousand dollars.

A

And you don't have to disclose the valuation of your capital asset.

A

That's the current standard.

A

Any source of income, then over ten thousand dollars.

A

A year, even if it's not your primary source of assets,.

A

So the reason that that I'm saying that this is where we're going to have a lot of questions is.

A

We've had questions around um under whether or not we need to also include um business relationships.

A

So maybe you don't hold assets, but your um we need to make sure this captures um employer information.

A

You would think it would under primary income or any income over ten thousand dollars, but.

A

Given the climate that we live in now, where you have individuals who make who work.

A

As consultants doing various jobs in the city that might not actually capture.

A

All their all that information.

A

That you want to capture, for example, if somebody works as a does a.

A

Works as a self-employed, but then they have 10 contracts of nine thousand dollars.

A

um The question is, then, you know all those businesses that are in portsmouth that are.

A

Each paying a tenth of their income in the year do we need to disclose that information as well.

A

Because it wouldn't meet the threshold of ten thousand dollars.

A

We have a lot more people that don't work, salary positions nowadays, so.

A

That's why I have this question: there's been such a shift in the way people work.

A

What about um business partnerships that don't where you don't hold assets.

C

Providing a partnership to provide to sell services right yeah or to where you you're.

A

Not co-owning assets necessarily so just have a contract to work with.

A

Another as well, how do we capture that.

D

So, are you I'm just trying to make sure I I focused on the right point: are you thinking like.

D

For example, someone who's an engineer and works with an engineering firm and that engineering firm.

D

May do business with the city of portsmouth. Is that what you're looking for well? That's.

D

Another thing I'm looking for: okay, that's the third thing: okay, yes, yes, we would want to know.

A

um That say, we have an engineer serving on one of our land use boards and their firm has several.

A

Contracts with the city of portsmouth, that's something that we would absolutely want disclosed.

A

Even if they weren't huge contracts, it's something that that would need to be disclosed.

A

And so that we can make sure we're avoiding all.

A

Conflicts arising, you wouldn't want them, making a decision say on a project that was.

A

On the street, where their firm was going to get the contract to do.

A

The planning of the city sewer line or that that's servicing, that space right.

A

So how do you capture relationships, business relationships that can create conflicts that.

A

Are not necessarily financial in nature at this level? Is my my bigger question, or that.

A

The financial while it seems like it's, not a huge impact, it's under ten thousand dollars. It.

A

Can be depending upon what someone's income is the way putting on my old litigation hat.

D

um [music] Typically,.

D

um One would ask you know in a commercial dispute involving a particular.

D

Entity or or like a head ceo type of person, you might be asking interrogatories that are looking.

D

At all of their business interests and, and so those written questions get at just you know,.

D

What board membership llc partnership you're not allowing them to at all self-select list every.

D

Legal obligation that you have to an entity, you don't set any numbers because then you know people.

D

May construe that differently, you're just getting a list. I am a partner in x. I sit on the board of.

D

Y and you just get a list and that's it and then, if you need to go further into any inquiry, then.

D

You do, but it's it's not you're, not trying to figure out the an amount you're just getting.

D

A straight list, any board, you sit on any you know, relationship you have in any partnership. You know.

D

And you're just asking a big suite of questions and if what you're after is to really understand.

D

From a person's perspective, what finger they might have and what pie? I think the easiest.

D

Thing to do is just forget: the money amount. I think you just asked. You know what are your.

D

Your legal relationships, you know and a whole bunch of entities- um and it includes ownership.

A

That would be my inclination is that the.

A

The financial figures are less relevant than all the information about relationships.

A

That we don't have a disclosure requirement for, but but we have people on the council.

A

That regularly recuse, because they're on a board of directors for a non-profit. And so you want to.

A

Capture that here, and so you know all of those in advance, so that they're publicly available.

A

So that the the public can make sure the people are recusing when appropriate,.

C

Yeah- and here too, for the guidance has been well there's no pecuniary.

C

Interest so you're you're, fine.

C

This would be a higher standard, but I tend to.

C

Agree with the higher standard, because, if you're on a board.

C

You have a fiduciary duty to advance the interests of that organization.

C

And that could conflict with your role as a counselor.

C

You know we have a counselor who is on the strawberry bank board um you're on the y board.

C

I'm on the prescott park, arts festival board, which does business with the city.

C

So is that, as is that a level of disclosure that we want to go to you know, would it be.

D

Helpful for the next meeting, if I try and bring back some kind of sample I'll go root around and.

D

See what I can find of what a kind of broad disclosure of interest looks like.

D

Yeah, I think that would be very helpful aside if it's too broad or you know.

A

It's currently um currently the the form that we complete every year and we complete.

A

It once a year in june um just asks your primary income, which is what is asked here.

A

And if you have any assets in the city of portsmouth, so um the challenge there.

A

Is that you're really not capturing people's conflicts, necessarily in the city um you're just.

A

Capturing income and assets- and uh that really is such a small piece, I think, of of conflicts.

C

At the same time, you don't want to discourage people from serving both.

C

As an elected official and in the non-profit world, it's healthy to have and you're probably.

C

Going to always have people who have that level of community involvement.

C

I can think of many previous counselors, so you know you don't want to.

C

Don't want to have people saying to their organizations. Oh, I have to step step down.

C

A

It would only be logical if that organization was doing a significant um project. I think for.

A

The city of fort smith, where they were receiving funds from the city of portsmouth- I I don't know.

A

That we have very many of those, but there are some engineering firms that work with the city.

A

Pretty frequently you probably if you worked for one of those orbs, you probably wouldn't.

A

Want to be sitting on one of our land use boards or be elected. An elected official in.

B

The city, architectural, or exactly in the same way, that we bar our employees from running for office.

A

um Because of the conflict there in the city, so there are a few um and and it would be important.

A

For people to disclose those as well, I think I would think- um and you know it's interesting- it's.

A

Not a standard that we we address before someone applies, which is fascinating, the application to.

A

Serve on a committee doesn't ask, do you have any conflicts, potential conflicts of interest.

A

And it's something that maybe we should also talk with a city clerk about, is you know when we're we.

A

Have an application for um a land use board because you don't you don't apply for council.

A

In the same way, but an application for land use board, there isn't really a section on that.

A

Application that says, do you have any potential conflicts of interest that you need to disclose.

A

So that's an interesting, um that's another interesting element that maybe we should consider.

A

As well and and the timing of some of these disclosures, because the.

A

Disclosure requirement comes in june when our elected officials all sit in january.

A

So maybe we should be considering timing also for these disclosures.

B

I don't know, I guess is part of me that.

B

It's getting, we can get into feel like a background check.

B

B

All right, I don't know, I just there's a level of discomfort I have with.

B

um Heavy duty reporting like that.

C

We should also know how much is required by state statute.

C

Is there anything required by state statute that we're not requiring.

C

And I'd be curious, whether any other new hampshire municipalities have.

C

That degree of disclosure.

C

A

I'm happy to bring back language from other municipalities for our next meeting as well.

A

We can look and see yeah I mean I've looked at dover and concord, um which are pretty thorough.

C

um And pretty recent, I think.

D

Do you have those handy or did you just look at them online.

C

I just looked at them online. My printed part of concord yeah. I have it in a file at home, but.

A

And I'm happy to do to track some of that down. I know manchester also has.

A

Requirements be able to guide as well, so we can start looking at what other.

A

Municipalities do yeah, there may be some best practices. We can look at.

A

um The other thing that I wanted to raise around is section we get down to section c. The obligation.

A

um Again, it's I think I said I was concerned about june 30th, because elected officials take.

A

Office in january, maybe we need to be thinking about timing around that.

A

um And the form or based they're, based on rsa 15a, that's attached. That's the state.

A

Form but the city clerk has a separate form based upon rsa 15a. For this purpose um and.

A

The rest is around determining violations and violations of this code are referred to the code.

A

Of ethics, if we change the disclosure requirements and the disclosures are not just financial ones,.

A

And we probably need to have a another reference here around.

A

Whether or not that makes sense to refer to the board of ethics.

A

um And whether or not the board of ethics could pursue that, I think is another question.

A

And while they are public records, we don't have a requirement here to publish them on.

A

The website we just made that recommendation in 1902. I know that there has been some requests.

A

That we've received from the public around publishing these on the website as well.

A

So we might consider that option here as well.

A

And your disclosure statements are returned to you after you leave office.

A

And that's pretty much it code of ethics again for penalties.

A

I think most of this hinges on what our decisions are around. What is.

A

What should be disclosed and what shouldn't be disclosed that also impacts definitions.

A

We may have to add a few definitions depending upon what we're requiring.

A

And we may be able to drop a few, it just depends on what our requests are here. What we think is.

A

Appropriate and then around timing and where that information is available to the public.

C

I think it's it's a good idea to have them on the website.

C

Have what I'm just gonna have them on the website and have them public? Historically, it was always.

C

Harold reporter would go down and dig them out and publish a story with what they.

C

All are, and that's probably not there's probably not time to do that anymore. So.

A

I think it also saves time on the part of.

A

Our city clerk around information requests, if they're all published and available.

A

Then that's less work in producing documentation when there's a request that comes in.

A

Transparency is the key.

A

I don't know, does anyone else can? Is anyone else concerned about that june? 30Th day like I am.

A

um It's six months into your elected officials, terms for a financial disclosure statement.

A

I believe that's based upon the state requirement.

A

So that's why we have that date. There's no reason why you couldn't require imports with.

A

Earlier disclosure- and they would be available clearly by june 30th for the stage as well.

B

I thought I thought we did a disclosure at the time of election.

C

Yeah we do one before election day and then any changes.

C

In the last week or two we have to update that's all election related. It's not it's, not financial.

A

Disclosures they're all election disclosures that we make. Then that's right, yeah, that's right! It's.

A

A separate that's what we just voted, so this is. This is entirely separate. This is the june 30th.

A

Apartment, so I just think it's important for people. You could have six months of people.

A

Acting and voting on things, not knowing that they have a conflict if they don't disclose it. Oh.

A

Is there anything else that anyone's concerned with here before we.

A

Move on and we'll next time clearly we'll work from some language from others and.

A

Get some draft language from the legal department.

C

I think it's a question to deliberate, you know: do we want all of the.

C

Non-Financial ties and associations.

C

C

C

My sense is that's a step beyond what most.

C

Cities and towns do, on the other hand, it you know, there's there's merit to doing it so.

A

For example, here's one if you have no direct financial interest in say the alps club, but you.

A

Remember at the elks club decisions being made, the perimeter of the elks club have an impact.

A

On you, as a member of the elks club, now you don't have a financial interest, necessarily you're, just.

A

A member: um well, I'm a member of strawberry bank, I'm a member of prescott park and I'm a.

B

Member of you know the historical society. You know it's like it's yeah the question.

A

Becomes when when do you become, when do you become? When are you receiving benefits that.

B

Are at a level that you they create a conflict.

D

Keep in mind, you've got city councils who are generally making policy decisions.

D

Versus quasi-judicial decisions, which are generally what happens in the land use boards.

D

So if I'm sitting on a land use board and I'm a member of a particular organization.

D

And that organization is a direct to butter. I think there is a conversation that that.

D

Or consideration that that member has to make in terms of that application.

D

As to whether you know we're talking jury standard, then that looks pretty close now, if you're simply.

D

Talking you're going to make a policy decision as to how to treat generally places of assembly under.

D

The zoning ordinance as a city council change to the zoning ordinance. Then I think that's different.

D

So I think it depends in what capacity you're sitting in, because.

D

There is a very distinct difference between being in a policy making decision versus.

D

A quasi-judicial role right because part of your job as a policy maker is to advocate for.

D

Particular interests, if you will and one might be, do we support non-profit organizations which you.

D

May be the member of many by taking x because you think non-profits bring x to the community.

D

So you want that voice, but it's different belonging to say being a member of strawberry bank.

A

And being a member, a proprietor of the affidan, the proprietor at the athenaeum, has a share at the.

A

Athenaum versus strawberry bank, it's a membership so that there is a difference there being a.

A

Proprietor at the athenaum, it's more like being a member of the 100 club right where you you buy a.

A

Share or so you have to think those are, those are not the same entities, not the same type of entity.

A

So I guess there are questions around them.

C

Yeah, these are all things that we can keep discussing all right. We should keep discussing.

E

Right- and I think my wife is a proprietor of the fname, but that doesn't you know.

A

But it's not a conflict for your wife if she's not serving on a land use board or man but family. You.

B

Know all those definitions of family and conflict of interest, but they applied only to land use.

A

Sports to quasi-judicial actions, so I think that that's also critical and that's why we limited it.

A

To cause you judicial actions, because that's when the standard is different.

A

So that's important right- and this is a disclosure that we're talking about right.

A

Disclosure- and it doesn't mean it automatic recusal- that's where you can ask that's why.

A

We were putting in the provision and the policy that you could ask the opinion.

A

So that you could come back and you can get an opinion from legal, you could share the opinion.

A

As well as to why you don't have a conflict necessarily there.

D

A

It's it's difficult to navigate all of these different. I think policies and making sure that.

A

They fit together. That's why I want to make sure that the violations provision here works with the.

A

Changes in the conflict event, conflict of interest in ethics.

A

um That we've recommended to the council that we'll see if the council does so.

A

We will come back to this at our next meeting.

A

um Our last item on the agenda is blue, ribbon conversions. um At the moment, the african, bearing.

A

Grounds stewardship committee doesn't have a consensus around um moving forward with.

A

A conversion and the sister cities, blue ribbon committee does not meet frequently.

A

um I have put in a request to the citywide neighborhood committee to consider.

A

Whether or not they want an ordinance adopted to to reflect their practice so.

A

um I will check back in with them and see where we are and energy advisory committee. I think.

A

I can ask the chair, if there's any thought topic for our next meeting: okay, so, and that is it so.

A

So we will have more updates there, but we have moved forward. Two of them have already.

A

Come to the council so we are progressing, it may seem slow, but we're progressing.

A

um With that, I want to open up to public comment. Is there public comment? Yes, ma'am? Please join us.

F

280 south street, um so I'm going to go through and kind of in the order that you went in and.

F

uh Just let you know what my comments are. uh The first one is on the municipal disclosure number c.

F

I would ask you to keep in mind uh in the red uh all such contribution except uh excess of.

F

Hundred dollars where the contribution is made in money, material or services, so basically here.

F

You're asking anybody to make an interpretation of materials and services and how much to put on.

F

There so um that's obviously beyond, but what was required before and I would ask you to.

F

Keep in mind, that's interpretation because you can't have somebody give you all the receipts.

F

Or whatever you where you want there, um the next one [music] um is number h. So number h.

F

I would like to give you a little history on making all of this public on the city website.

F

So- um and this goes back to the prior council, where a member had concern about all of the.

F

Data, the personal data being put out there, and we even went so far as to not have residents who are.

F

Speaking in public comment disclose their address. They it. It's only required now to to say that.

F

They live in portsmouth and that was brought forward by a member of the previous council.

F

um On the rest of uh number h, so um I strongly oppose putting all this personal data on the.

F

Website and here's something for you to think about. Besides what I just said.

F

I I support what we do now that if somebody wants this data, they could come in and kelly has it. I.

F

Think it's part of you discussed with safer time. This is part of what she does. So my question is.

F

um And why I have a concern here is: if anybody wants any of this data and it's on the world.

F

Wide web that is accessible to anybody, so um this is for a local you're applying for a local body.

F

Appointment here, not a state, not a federal, and um my concern is of identity theft. um Some of us have.

F

Experienced that and do not really encourage more data out there for hackers to access.

F

um The next one on uh on the same measure is, I know, you're going to just start. Looking at.

F

The state rsa 15, uh first of all, you noted that there was a um was a form resembling.

F

This that the city clerk has, but it wasn't in the packet and none none of you have reviewed that so.

F

um I guess my my ask is: can we see that, can the public see that and everybody else, so you know you.

F

Know what your your changes will be. um The la the next thing uh on the uh the whistleblower clause.

F

um We did have a whistleblower clause listed in, um for example, the audit.

F

Ordinance that was removed by legal, and um so that's something for you to look at.

F

um The uh the logic there was that um if there was a problem that the person who was an employee and.

F

Who worked for that? Person could come to the legal department that works for the city, manager or.

F

Whoever and and have a whistleblower instance and I'm speaking specifically in the financial area,.

F

um I would think it would be the same for everybody else.

F

um The suggestion here, if you want to put one in especially for employees, would be.

F

To bypass the city administration and come to the city council, that would be my suggestion as.

F

um Think things could just go away uh next, the uh the new edition of number 1.4 and 1.5. That was not.

F

Included in the packet and obviously the other two members of the committee did not see it before so.

F

um It would be nice if some of this was published prior. If you're going to talk about it.

F

F

uh Onto the 1901. uh question uh you you discussed number a, and my question is here.

F

Are you talking about making a charter change here? Because I guess this is in.

F

The this is a charter amendment uh that requires different approvals and a whole different path.

F

uh The next question um on financial disclosure statements, so um in number one under here listing.

F

An individual's primary source of annual income, so um that is fine. I I don't see.

F

Any problem with, what's in there now number two listing any investment sources of income, whether.

F

Or not connected to the city of portsmouth. From my perspective, this is going a little overboard.

F

um This would, if you take this literally, this would involve investments, and everybody has.

F

Investments in 401ks and if you know anything about how they manage 401ks.

F

Things come in things, go out. There is really no way for the individual in this time period.

F

To know what what their 401k managers are investing in, so that's a that's a.

F

Problem there, especially the other thing you need to consider, is um a lot of a lot of us are retired.

F

And at one point, it's going to um be incumbent upon us to uh take a required distribution from.

F

Said assets when you put this in here, does that mean that has to be reported and that.

F

Has all be disclosed and then, as you go down, and you want to put all of this on for public.

F

Records on the city website. um That's a little! That's a little too much to ask, and I agree with.

F

um Council, lombardi and council tabor on that. um The other thing is um here when you're, when.

F

You're putting all of this in writing- I, I guess you're you're, actually questioning the honesty.

F

Of our officials to report anything here, so that's a little. That's a little rub. There.

F

um I cover that. The other thing uh I want to just hit on is is the discussion on the the.

F

Brick sidewalks, um I'm wondering. um First of all, I I thought counselor tabor had a fantastic question.

F

um I think maybe you're going to a lot of extra work if we knew how many brick sidewalks, we were.

F

Talking about that would help the discussion a lot and I think the information that came.

F

Forward were forward from mr rice this morning about how many we could keep going on was was.

F

Great, but the mr mr tabor's question um I think, could have been answered in that too. So the other.

F

Question and something to keep in mind here is: are we actually when we say it's going to cost.

F

Us more money to put brick sidewalks in um versus the other. Are we really putting uh a value on our.

F

Historic character, because that's what makes a lot of portsmouth's historic, district, historic.

F

And um you know, I agree with counselor tabor that this is our historic character and we.

F

Spend money on a lot of other stuff. um This should be a priority as far as I'm concerned.

F

Keeping our historic character as much as we can, and also just like the you spoke about the.

F

uh About the residents on cabot street, I I still think um residents should have the opportunity.

F

Especially if they want to pay for it to do this- and I agree with councilor lombardi on.

F

Keeping everything together and I guess getting a description of what is a block or what is a street.

F

I think that's going to go much deeper, but I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna address that right now.

F

Anyway, those are my comments and um I I hope you take serious the uh the publishing of everything.

F

I know it's it's a great idea, but as far as having it here and having those interested in portsmouth.

F

Seeing all this information? That's fine, but when you put it out on the web that just blows it out.

F

To everything else, just from a person who had a problem with identity theft. Thank you. Thank you.

A

um Is there a public comment online, I'm going to stop sharing so that.

A

I know we have one person online.

A

Do you want to join us in public comment.

E

E

uh I don't think so: okay, um I'm not saying a hand up or uh response. Are you.

A

Anything no okay um with that, then um I'll close public comment and the.

A

Committee schedule is our next meeting is october. The 10th.

A

We've been having meetings twice a month, but we didn't schedule a second one for.

A

September, thank god. The september schedule is difficult, so we will be meeting in october.

A

um Are there any other announcements? Can I get a motion to adjourn then so moved second.

A

All in favor aye all right. We are right.