City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Governance Committee, 17 Oct 2022

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From YouTube: 10.17.2022 Governance Committee

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10.17.2022 Governance Committee

A

Call this meeting of the governance committee to order.

B

um We'll start with a roll call, counselor tabor president.

B

Councilor lombardi here and I'm a counselor cook and I'm present as well. um We have we're going.

B

To start today, with our a continued discussion of committees and ordinances review, I am going.

B

To start by sharing my screen with everyone, so everyone can see it up on the board and then.

B

um Anyone also on zoom, which I don't think we actually have anyone on zoom joining us today,.

B

But if, if anyone does join us, they they will be aware of what we're discussing, and I should also.

B

Note that this language has not been shared with the committee we're in a very preliminary stage.

B

um And so of discussing this, so it's not something that was in the agenda pocket.

B

It's not something that any that has been distributed anywhere. This is just.

B

um Generally language that um we're trying to like finesse first before we get to that stage.

B

So um so this is very preliminary discussion. Let me see if I can share my screen.

B

Here we go uh so we had discussed in the past a potential option. um Wait. I think this is wrong.

B

No, that's right a potential option of pointing at a.

B

Allowing the mayor to point appoint people on a stagger to help fix the challenges we.

B

Have around so many committees and it's a lot of committees that we have right now that the.

B

Stagger's off and therefore we lose expertise. Unfortunately, the majority of expertise on a.

B

Committee in in one year sometimes so this is a an effort to try to offer a solution to that problem.

B

um And the language that we were currently looking at is essentially a simple phrase.

B

Adding a simple phrase at the end of section, a of section or point a under section 1.302 in.

B

The ordinance- and this is the board's ordinance article three for those at home. If the rotation.

B

Of the membership terms is not staggered. The mayor shall shorten the term of the subsequent appointee.

B

By whatever time frame necessary to maintain the rotation of the terms envisioned in the ordinance.

B

So this was kind of the recommendation that had come from governance to go to legal and.

B

Have legal look at it? I think we're still working on that process. Is that accurate? Yes, we are so.

A

um It's gonna be um legal determination or statutory interpretation for the land use boards.

A

Anyways, because the statute for the land use boards requires that the terms be for three years.

A

But it also requires that they be staggered so that no more than three people are appointed in.

A

Any given year, which apparently somehow we're off the mark for that stagger, so the question is: will.

A

The statute allow a shortening, or would it require a lengthening of a current term in order to.

A

Effectuate that the committees, I think it's just a matter of changing the ordinances most likely.

B

Thank you and I think that that's what we're trying to make sure that we have in my discussions.

B

With the legal department, a clear understanding of what the mayor's requirements would be.

B

um That would mean, for example, if, um depending upon what we determine is the state rsa that comes.

B

Up do we, when an appointment comes up on a land use board which these are really the only boards.

B

That we have to be cautious about because there's rsa governing it and there's ordinance covering it.

B

That we make sure that we're following the rsa when the mayor says okay, this next appointment.

B

That I'm making is, instead of being three years, is only going to be two years to reset the stagger.

B

um That that isn't somehow in conflict, and so um it takes a lot of research to go through.

B

This and make sure that we're not um upsetting that, and if that's the case, we might need to.

B

Put a stipulation here that this applies not to those boards that it only applies to the.

B

Rest of our committees, committees, like parking traffic and safety that are the staggers off.

B

For almost everyone rotates in the same year, um that's that's, who would this would apply to.

B

Then so I guess that's that's where we are and I'd love to hear from the rest of the committee.

B

On your thoughts on this, because this was kind of our initial take and if we want to, I think.

B

I think it's reasonable to keep moving forward, but I would love to hear from the rest of you.

C

Well, I think, that's, I think, that's a um a good plan um again, we have to.

C

Look at the statute and understand how to do it, specifically um the I, the only other.

C

Thing that I would like to see is that the new appointments um dude, don't bypass the alternates.

C

On these committees that an alternate is, there should probably have the first opportunity to.

C

You know advance to a full member and the new appointment um become become an alternate.

C

Again, that's I don't know if that's regulated by statute, um but that has been that.

C

Tradition- um and so I think I think, that's a good tradition, especially for the landfuse boards. Okay,.

D

uh I think we'll keep researching. We need to know what the statute requires us to do.

D

Looking at our research that we did earlier in the year.

D

For example, the planning board has four positions expiring. Next year, five in 2024.

D

So clearly, where you know replacing almost half the planning board each of those two years.

D

So that that shows you the degree of the problem, there's no quick way to fix it.

D

We have to do it over time.

D

um And I don't know about lengthening a person's term, certainly.

D

I think where we've gotten into trouble is people.

D

Have been appointed to fill out a term and then they just keep going.

D

um So if the mayor was able to say you're going to fill out the remainder of this term.

D

That's the shortened appointment that gets it back on track.

D

D

But whatever is the the simplest surest way to get to the.

D

Staggered terms that the statute requires, you know, that's what we're after.

D

D

Neo, the other topic is when do these terms expire, but I think we'll get into that. That's a separate.

D

Topic right: yes, yes, we will address that next actually yeah um and then I assume, as with.

D

Every action of the mayor with appointments that still requires approval by the council right, yes,.

D

So it would appear this language gets us to the desired goal.

D

D

It feels more natural to shorten the term than to point with extended terms.

D

I think that stretches the power of the mayor a little more than maybe the statute envisions.

B

Counselor tabor, um so as the legal department continues to look at this and that that.

E

Intersection between the state law in my recollection is that perhaps some of the.

E

Lack of stagger that we see is also due to the fact that, and I think bob shared this over the.

E

Years, which is some board members have been allowed to hold over for a period of time? Well,.

E

The process was in the way to either reappoint or to find someone new, so that goes to that.

E

um That may be one way to help with the land use boards. Maybe it's just allowing a couple month.

E

Holdover to just push us into another year to then do another three-year term, so we're.

E

Going to look at that closely um as a you know, maybe that's one of those methods that has to be.

E

Kept in mind, if we don't have the ability to to adjust, but I think some of the historical.

E

Sort of off you know the off cycle has just been because someone held over for three months while.

E

Someone else was coming on board and and things kind of backed up a little bit. So you know we'll.

E

We'll look at all of those options um because it may be you take language, something like you have.

E

Proposed here and just add to the extent permitted by law, knowing that some of these are governed.

E

By state law- and they will have a different solution than some of the other pieces that.

E

Might be a an easy adjustment and I just want to say in terms of the the alternates I think.

E

You know I hear that you know there is value in kind of looking at the alternates, but I think.

E

Like with any board member, you know you want to look at, have they been consistent in attendance.

E

Have they, you know, performed the function that we would expect of a board member, depending on the.

E

Board that they're sitting at so try to hold them all accountable in terms of their actions on the.

E

Board and and whether they are participating um yeah. So that would be my only caveat that.

E

It's not a you automatically get it if you're an alternate. Obviously, when you're seated, you are.

E

um But it's a apply and maybe there's a preference, but recognizing we ought to look carefully right. I.

C

Yeah, I have seen a situation where an alternate did not want to become a voting member and.

C

um And that was fine, you know too, but I think they have to have the opportunity to be considered.

C

Okay, thank you. um I have two points that I I want to be clear on for those at home. Those watching.

B

um This will not affect anyone who's currently sitting on any of our committees or boards. It.

B

Doesn't change the terms of anyone who's currently sitting the only thing this does.

B

This language does: is it allows this mayor and likely the next mayor as well, because.

B

It'll probably take about four years to shorten the terms of their own appointments to these. To.

B

Committees and boards to reset the stagger, so I just think it should be very clear to everyone.

B

This doesn't impact anyone who's currently sitting. These are for future appointments.

B

um And as far as council lombardi's suggestion goes with regard to appointing alternates, I think.

B

It's it's reasonable to add language somewhere. That says that the mayor shall first consider.

B

Alternates who are eager to serve in a full role before considering others for appointments.

B

I don't know that we can tie the mayor's hands. The mayor has complete control over appointments.

B

But I think it's reasonable to at least make that request somewhere in the ordinance um and then the.

B

Mayor will make that determination ultimately. Does that seem like a reasonable approach.

B

um If that is the case, I can work with the legal department on getting that language.

B

As well, if everyone agrees that that should be added as well to the ordinance. No, I agree that.

D

You know we, we shouldn't walk past the years of.

D

Experience that the alternates have particularly on the land use boards.

D

They they've learned what the role is.

D

um I think it's easier to fill up an alternate position in a voting position.

D

Always want to have a bench, you know.

B

I think the the consideration is always a consistency. That's that's the goal of all.

B

Of this across all of our committees and boards is making sure we have a healthy.

B

Staggered rotation, so we keep expertise. This would be in line with doing that as well.

B

So I will gladly do that. Okay, um are there any other comments on this particular piece before we.

B

Move forward, I just it seems to me that I recall- and I might be this might be just in our ordinance.

C

But I thought it was in the state statute that if, um if there is not a candidate.

C

To replace someone at the end of the term of their term that they can continue.

C

um In that role, but maybe one thing too think about is rather than continuing in that role.

C

And extending that term it becomes a a new term in the rotation of of the appointment.

C

I think it in the past has been just considered well, you're still there in.

C

And your term is extended, but one way to solve, that is to say well, okay, this is a new term.

C

Right, if you stay at the beginning of three years and when they do find.

C

Someone to replace that person that they take over that term.

B

I think that's a reasonable section, that's that's where we started.

B

Which was trying to define places on committees versus persons.

B

That there are places that hold three-year terms versus an individual, so that way that person.

B

Serves that three-year term and if they leave early, somebody else fills that place and that.

B

Term still expands if they leave late, it becomes a new term that someone would replace as well yeah.

E

That works fine. Once you have the stagger re-established, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,.

B

All right, then, let's move on to the second part of.

B

Our committees committee's ordinance, review discussion, appointment schedule.

B

uh If, if everyone would recall, this is a discussion about.

B

um The time frame in which appointments are made and concerns about um like depoliticizing.

B

Any appointments and reducing the sense um of residents that there is any kind of political.

B

um I guess political action taken with appointments. We want to make sure that everyone.

B

Has confidence that the mayor and the council then are appointing people based upon expertise.

B

And that we're doing that um with the authority that's invested in the.

B

The mayor and the council, and so there were some concerns around appointments that occur.

B

After elections and prior to seating of a new council or a new mayor.

B

And we had initially had some discussion here about moving those, so I would love to hear from.

B

My fellow counselors on what we think is the ideal approach here.

B

Before we move forward with trying to shift those terms, I should note that the time frame.

B

Of terms like when those appointments occur is not defined anywhere in our ordinance, so it's not an.

B

Ordinance change to change this. Is it statue, not really I mean it is, but it isn't yes, um so so the.

C

The turnover date of the appointments is not in the statute. The state statute.

A

I'm familiar with the land use statute and there's no turnover date in that particular appointment.

A

uh Requirement for the landia sports, whether it's in the ordinances.

A

um So maybe it's just a matter of um practice. It's at this point. It's only defined by.

D

What the council votes on as the term of an appointment at the time they voted.

C

So other than the land use boards for me, uh including the land use sports.

D

But you know it fundamentally.

D

There's an election, the first tuesday of november there's a lame duck period. Most of our land use.

D

Boards expire, their terms expire december 31. at midnight. The new council isn't sworn in until.

D

Usually january 7th or so the first monday after new year's. So I think that poses the question.

D

That gives the lame duck council a lot of appointments that expire december 31.

D

D

Having been through this two times,.

D

I've seen the 2017 council appoint a number of land use board positions as lame ducks.

D

And the incoming 2019 council was unhappy about that. I've seen the 2019 council.

D

A point, a number even more lame duck appointments uh and our current council was vocal about that.

D

So but I I think the question is what's best for the city and um I think that's the discussion. We.

D

Ought to have should these terms be appointed by the new council.

D

And maybe the old terms expire, you know early january.

D

Or should we continue to do to to expire them december 31st.

D

um Which usually requires the lame duck? Council fill a bunch of positions.

D

D

I think there's been a pat a past precedent.

D

That the incoming council has allowed the outgoing council to make appointments.

D

Is that what we want to continue to do.

D

Or do we want the new appointments to reflect the latest desires of the voters.

D

By having the new council appoint them, I tend to lean that way, but there's been precedent both ways.

D

You know when we've had councils with that didn't have a lot of turnover term to term.

D

They were sort of trusted to fill out to to keep the land use boards.

D

Staffed, even after some of them were either not elected or chose to retire.

D

um But we've had big swings in the makeup of the council. Bigger swings than we we used to have.

D

So that's the way I see it. I I you know.

D

I tend to think.

D

It should reflect, I mean we, the ultimate. Our ultimate bosses is the voters.

D

So how do we get as close to what the voters want.

D

And that to me seems that you let the newer council, the new council, have those appointments.

C

um I know that on the htc some appointments end in june.

C

And some point send in this in end of december.

C

C

I don't know if there's an advantage to having two separate dates.

C

um But I just wonder if june is a better date to have everything change.

C

You know the the terms end. It's the center of a year, the fiscal year. It's the fiscal year.

C

um So I just I guess I would propose that no june 30 as a or june 1st, whichever you know, is a.

C

A better time to make those changes than the end of the calendar year.

C

So that I think that would address this issue.

D

It's also worth noting that.

D

For example, planning all expire december 31st, trustees of trust.

D

Funds expire january 1st, so there's not consistency in what we have now.

B

I actually, I think, from what I can tell we're kind of all on the same page about these.

B

um The the issue of terms expiring, a certain period of time when I go through the list.

B

Of committees, where the terms expire in november or december, that's audit.

B

There's one term on economic development. Commission, I think that's somebody that.

B

Was appointed and given a full term versus filling out a term.

B

um Then then, the next one to consider is a planning board trustees of trust funds and zoning.

C

And what zoning board? So those are all the ones that have expiration of terms between councils.

B

And um I think it's absolutely I I think you cannot shorten anyone's term.

B

I think the only path you can take is lengthening terms, which means you can't.

B

Move those appointment schedules back to before an election. They would have to be moved forward.

B

To january or february, at a minimum that way, a new council is seated to make those.

B

Appointments, because that reflects as councilor tabor argued, the will of the voters as well.

B

And if you were to do that, that would that would mean that you had.

B

All those rotations occurring with the new council and you would eliminate I.

B

Guess any of the the challenges around appointments in november and december.

B

And to be fair, as far as the council schedule goes, um there's a very busy month for everyone and and.

B

November can be as well, you don't necessarily have a huge number of residents who might be interested.

B

In serving on one of these boards or committees, paying attention to that appointment, schedule in.

B

November and december, and you might actually get more excited parties who are interested in serving.

B

In january, when people are thinking, I want to take on something new at the beginning of the.

B

Year after the holiday schedule, so it might be better as well as far as recruiting goes.

B

To move into that time frame, um so I don't because we don't have an ordinance that discovers this or.

B

Any really any procedure beyond the fact that this is how it's been done. These are when these.

B

Appointments were initially made, so that's why those are the dates we have for the appointments.

B

um There's not clear guidance on how we make a recommendation to shift this.

B

um And to shift these appointments um so uh I'm happy to go back to the city clerk.

B

And work with the city clerk and with the legal department. If, if we all think that this might be.

B

Something we want to propose to the council find out how we would shift back um these appointment.

B

Dates that would mean that anyone currently sitting on the committees I named would be serving.

B

For an additional, we would be asking them to be willing to serve for an additional month or two.

B

um And further term stand later.

B

Does that seem reasonable.

D

Well, you make the clear point that we can't shorten terms. So that means the remedy for.

D

For this would be to lengthen the terms into.

D

As the only practical way to do it.

D

And wouldn't the the enabling language reside in our descriptions of each of the.

D

The boards and committees, when we describe.

D

The terms will be three years or five years or whatever, and then we would specify the dates right.

D

And it seems like.

D

Seems like councilor cook you and I have.

D

A sentiment that making these appointments in january, when the new council seated makes sense.

D

But I'd like to hear the arguments both ways you know.

D

It for many years the president has been to do it december, 31st that these expired december 31st.

D

It made for some unusual circumstances this past year, because.

D

Only two of us stayed on on the council, so seven of seven members of the council turned over.

D

So you really had a whole fresh look as the voters wanted.

C

I mean I think that.

C

Well, I think that's right, I mean, I think it's um it. Doesn't I just suggested june because it was.

C

Maybe a convenient time it has a lot of logic to it, um but um january 2. The.

C

um It's in some ways, if there's a new mayor.

C

Who I mean potentially has not even been a city councilor.

C

To start making these appointments, I think, would be very difficult for that person.

C

um That's why I thought maybe a little more time in the seat might be good even for a mayor, who's.

C

Been on the council, they, the role, is yes, he's a counselor, he or she's a counselor, but.

C

That job has a lot going on that the rest of us don't have.

C

So I just I just wonder if that's a big task to ask somebody who just a.

C

Month, early earlier found out that their mayor right month in three weeks, yeah.

B

uh Maybe what we could do is I will start asking the city clerk in the legal department. If this.

B

Is a reasonable approach if it's something that we can move forward with and how we.

B

Would make that recommendation since it's not an ordinance and um then we can also ask.

B

The the city to weigh in on what that initial month looks like and whether or not.

B

um That is a reasonable time where we should move it out further, depending upon what tasks.

B

Look like at the beginning of the year. I should be I'm trying to be mindful of the fact that.

B

When we get to february we're doing the cip budget and then you know so there's so much.

B

Budget discussion there at the beginning of the year that I want to make sure that if we do move.

B

These we move them to a time where the mayor would not be incredibly busy with other tasks.

B

So that the mayor would have time to vet candidates appropriately yeah yeah, okay,.

D

How would you even how would we, let's assume, let's take vince's argument that.

D

June at least gives a new mayor a chance to get their feet wet, mm-hmm and understand. What's.

D

Happening, but how would we shift these terms from ending december 31 to ending june 30.

D

We'd have to do that one at a time right.

D

Or extend everybody for one time by six months, so the planning board would.

D

They'd serve three years and six months or two years and have whatever.

D

That additional increment with me, but I suppose you could do it.

B

I think you'd have two options here. The first option would that the mayor would appoint somebody.

B

To fill a role for an additional like change the term on appointment and say your term will.

B

Expire in june versus in december, but the only way the mayor could do that is not to lengthen.

B

The term, but to shorten it slightly, so it would be shortening some appointments in making these.

B

These appointments, the other alternative, is to take everyone who's sitting and serving and say.

B

We're just going to lengthen your terms and so that the appointments don't come up until.

B

A certain time frame, so there are two approaches. I think that you could take, and this may be another.

D

Question like counselor dentons proposed changes where we want to ask our panel of former mayors.

D

And get their lived experience with this.

D

D

'll be interesting to hear.

D

Over the you know, all of this was.

D

I think there was enough continuity in the previous councils that it wasn't.

D

It it didn't raise much concern councils changed dramatically at the desire of the voters.

D

That's that's when the issue becomes interesting.

D

So it would sound to me like we're exploring january we're exploring june.

D

um But it would be good to know what were the benefits of the long time precedent before that.

C

I agree with that. I think it would be reasonable absolutely to bring in some former mayors and ask.

B

This question: um uh I would specifically turn to mayors who had served before we had any questions.

B

About appointments, um maybe asking um mayor farini to come in.

B

um Mayor speer, I believe, came in mayor blalock um yeah, maybe avoid mayor blaylock, since there were.

B

Some questions or concerns, but have some earlier mayors who, before there were any questions or.

B

Concerns about appointments occurring and by anybody in november and december.

B

um Since councilor tabor pointed out earlier, there were questions about the 2017. council.

B

As well is that right, 2007 2019, council yeah, the incoming council, wanted their shot at appointments.

D

And the outgoing council said: well, we have to keep these boards running.

D

According to the deadlines, the only way to do that by december 31st is to make an appointment.

B

The goal here is to eliminate that discussion right so that there's not there should never be.

B

A competition between an outgoing council and an incoming council on appointments. It should.

B

Just be consistency across councils and no concerns about uh politicizing anything.

B

I think that that would help encourage our residents to think that.

B

um The council is doing its work and that we're not um that that it hasn't it isn't.

B

um Politicized in any way, it's appointments, especially, I think that's the goal.

B

um Okay: well I'll start with the clerk's office and legal department. Okay, to see how this is done,.

B

um And then um I will have the legal department reach out to each of you.

B

Since I cannot do that because I don't want to create quorum um if we have a reasonable.

B

um Reasonable idea of how this could be approached before our next meeting and.

B

We're ready to invite anyone else to come in. Is that fair? Okay? I would just say that all.

C

Appointments are political yeah, no matter when that happens, that's right. I think the idea that.

D

A council would be elected and not want their views expressed in the appointments would be naive.

B

It's reasonable, so, um okay, um we will move forward. Then um we're ready to discuss the next item.

B

We need to come up with as a committee due to our recommendation on discussion of parks.

B

Spaces within the city and referring that to the recreation board, the conservation, commission and.

B

Treason, public greenery and possibly the planning board for further discussion. We.

B

Should probably come up with an agenda for them, so they are aware and a format for that meeting.

B

um So, that's why I'm raising that here today um asking them just to come together without.

B

Any insight and into what they're going to discuss is, is a little bit difficult.

B

um So I thought it would be important for us to discuss what are our priorities.

B

For them coming out of a meeting, do we want them to meet? I I it's probably unreasonable asking them.

B

All to meet together, but asking representatives from each to meet to have a discussion. Do we want.

B

To also be present is governance committee, or do we want them to have the discussion without us.

B

um Do we just want to define the agenda some to ask questions on that agenda and um come to answer.

B

Questions only um what do we see as the format of that meeting? I guess, since I kind of brought.

C

This up, I think um my thought is that it's not really a governance thing at this point and that.

C

um But I would like to see a committee of those of these groups addressing you know.

C

The open space holistically and- um and I don't even know what that means in terms of this.

C

um But I think each of these boards and commissions.

C

Have an interest and and in the open space and.

C

I would I would trust it to them to.

C

Find a way and maybe they'll say nah, you know this isn't going to go anywhere.

C

um But I would hope that kind of a an overall view of the city's public spaces.

C

um Would be important enough that these various.

C

I would say bents on how to use those spaces or how to best manage.

C

Those spaces would could they could come together and define that in a better way.

D

Oops, I you know what this came out of our discussion of, should we have a parks board.

D

And I think our discussion around a parks board was twofold and.

D

Without one who advocates to add green space, we know on all our master plans.

D

Residents are always saying we want we've treasure green space. We want.

D

Green space, we want view corridors viewscapes, especially to the water.

D

um Who? Who produces the program at work, to find those and second with the parks that we have.

D

What's the right mix of active and passive uses, there's, for example, this you know, obviously,.

D

Prescott park has really active uses, especially in the summer, but what about jones avenue? You know.

D

D

Some of the other areas- and I think it would be helpful for so if we say there's two questions.

D

How do we advocate to always be finding and adding green space.

D

For the public to use and then what's the right mix of active and passive uses of what we have.

D

And then have a list of what we have, because I don't think people realize how long that list is.

D

Does that make sense, I mean that those are.

B

I think that's a reasonable, reasonable approach. I mean that's what we're asking. I think that I would.

B

Add one more thing to that and and the reason I put possibly a planning board member on the agenda.

B

um Was that we're we're approaching the master planning process.

B

Soon and I think that they probably need to have recommendations of some kind, these.

B

Committees need to come together and make some recommendations um for the master planning process.

B

um And the planning board should be aware, then, of what the concerns are around open space.

B

um And that way we have a better master planning process.

B

So I think that they should be mindful of that.

D

You know it's interesting. There's a 23 acre parcel.

D

uh That approached the city and said a lot of this is wetlands.

D

Could there be a conservation easement on it? Could there be a public use of it.

D

um Where does that land.

D

That's an interesting opportunity: could you have trails on it? Could you have.

D

Dirt bike trails or hiking trails or so.

D

How do we that would be my question for this group when we gather them.

D

How do we take advantage of opportunities as they arise,.

D

I think, particularly out in the you know, the southern south on route 1 over.

D

D

Down near heritage avenue and um in those areas behind water country, there's there's lots of.

D

Interesting chunks of land, the great bog near the plains, mm-hmm so.

A

Yes, deputy, so so what I'm wondering is, would it make sense to.

E

Like I wrote down the two big questions who advocates to add green space and what is the.

E

Right mix of active and passive uses of our green spaces, if and maybe a third, depending on how the.

E

Conversation wraps up, but should we take those questions, maybe and and send them to each of.

E

The boards and say would you like to designate a member or two to have a a meeting to talk about.

E

And answer these or would you or does your board want? You know I'm trying to think of a good format.

E

Because it might be hard given scheduling to get all of the boards together, but the boards might be.

E

Interested in designating a person or two to respond to these, or maybe the board will want.

E

To address them their own, you know on their own and then feed it back to this committee. I'm not.

E

Sure there's a wrong way to do it. There might be a an easier way to do it, but um yeah. I will say that.

E

um And I think I mentioned this before that. Historically, when the city has identified.

E

Potential parcels, as in a property owner, comes to us. Typically, it does get vetted a bit internally.

E

And, and will go to the city council, sometimes in non-public session, if it involves the potential.

E

You know transfer of real estate, you know for a fee, but these do get brought up to the city.

E

Council level, and sometimes it's part and parcel, if you may recall, of some of our public works.

E

Projects where we may need a small part of the property, but the owner is interested in selling.

E

The city the whole part of the pro property that happened recently off of banfield road, so those.

E

Opportunities are to some degree coming forward. It may not be every opportunity, but sometimes it.

E

Gets some vetting internally and obviously, to the extent we're using conservation funds for property.

E

Then it goes to the conservation commission for its input before it goes to the city council.

E

But ultimately, it's a city council that makes decisions, obviously, in terms of acquisition of.

E

Land an interest in land, um so so it is, you know those opportunities are moving forward when they.

E

Look like they have some legs. That doesn't mean there's not value and further input, but.

E

So I'm always thinking that it would be valuable to have further discussion around when easement.

B

Opportunities arise around things like. How can can we put a bypass here that connects.

A

Two roads or connects to the rail trail, the envisioned rail trailer or connects that.

B

That um maybe we need to have a vision for where would we like to have more.

B

Walking pathways that connect or viewpoints to the water that are public access or or even public.

B

Access spaces where people could approach the water and put a kayak in, for example, or that kind.

B

Of thing um I'm wondering if it might be useful to have the planning director come to the next.

E

Meeting along with eric eby, because between the two of them, this a lot of this is that.

E

Interconnectivity- and I know we had peter britz here previously and he talked about some of the.

E

Open space land, but to figure out how to best get the input from the boards that you're looking.

E

For or how this will eventually play into the master planning process or updating the bike. Ped.

E

Plan, you know we have some of that planning that was done and may need to be updated because.

E

Obviously, conditions change and that's why you do your master planning process, but if that would be.

E

Helpful to have a more robust conversation than than I can carry on because it's not.

E

My normal wheelhouse, I'm certainly willing to bring other players to this committee to help.

E

You know figure out how we advance this in a way that's most effective for you and for the boards.

B

um I have a question around that because I think it would be important for the planning.

B

Director to be involved in this discussion and planning to be involved. But my question.

B

Is really should we have them come here, or should we help set an agenda of our what our questions.

B

Are and try to draw together individuals from these groups who actually have some expertise.

B

Around this to discuss this with the planning director, so that we make sure that there's.

B

Further discussion around parks, I do think that there's another question that needs to be answered.

B

Do you, who should be responsible as far as committees go for parks.

B

And that probably is a discussion among the committees. You know which committee makes.

B

The most sense to be responsible for parks. Is it the recreation committee? Should it.

B

Become parks and recreation, is it treason, public greenery should that become parks.

B

That handles trees in public greenery. You know who? Who, where does that responsibility, lie well right.

E

Now it lies with public works, with the input on uh you know, taking down trees with trees and greenery.

E

With recreation in terms of what programming is held there or whether facilities are put in so.

E

That's where it sits right now um and then obviously through the city council, because.

E

You ultimately control the budget and you know help us decide priorities on. You know what we're.

E

Doing you know for infrastructure or not right and those green spaces are acquisitions, so um and and.

B

That had been the initial concern. I know public works does a fantastic job, maintaining spaces.

B

um But there's there's no one at the committee level. Thinking about what are our next steps for.

B

um For developing new spaces or for using the spaces, we have differently.

B

Or approaching them differently like putting a boardwalk at the great bog or something.

B

Like that or where's our next acquisition for public space so yeah, I I think that part of.

C

The overview has to do with the kind of the competing interests of each of these.

C

Existing boards, if you know because there are, I mean the conservation commission, they're.

C

Interested in conservation, recreation creation, the you know, and is it passive or active recreation.

C

I I don't I don't. I have the same question, you know who.

C

How are those decisions made where there are competing interests and I think right now, it's.

C

Basically, public works because it you know with with input from the city council ultimately, but.

D

And I think it if, if the responsibility lies with public works,.

D

Public works views their job as.

D

Keeping everything in good condition and and they plan that uh sequentially.

D

And budget that and assign manpower to that- and they do a great job mm-hmm, but.

D

There's parks as something to maintain and there's recreation and green space as an experience.

D

And I think I'm asking who's responsible for the experience part. What do our people.

D

Experience our residents experience in all these and what are the opportunities for that.

D

Okay, so I've got three questions now we just have to decide how how you would like to get your input.

E

um Whether it's to you know send these questions to each of the boards. Whether you want to have an.

E

Opportunity to talk to you know the planning director and and eric evie. First in case you.

E

Want to tweak these a little bit um before you send them off or get their input on.

E

How you you know: what's the best strategy um for reaching out, so I'm.

C

Well, I personally would love to hear from the planning director and and maybe eric.

C

Too I you know, I mean he's sensitive to the bike: ped yeah pieces, yeah yeah.

C

So I think that would be useful. I think that's a good next step. It occurs to me that this could be.

D

A kind of colloquium event where the discussion is facilitated between all these players around.

D

Those questions and maybe there's breaking into small groups and coming back with.

D

um Introduce a multi-disciplinary groups going back with answers to questions and and there.

D

Might be some policy coming out of that? It's I see this very much as a kickoff discussion.

B

um For master planning um down the road for parks and if you kick off this discussion,.

B

And people start having the talks between these specific committees and planning, then.

B

Organically, we will end up with a solution for who addresses parks right in the long run.

B

So um I think that would be fantastic. I think, though, what we will have to do is we might have.

B

To set a date and invite people to attend, rather than asking people when they can of.

B

Because we'll never get a date, I think that that's one of those challenges, unless we just.

B

Kind of choose and set a date right, yeah, and there may be some ways to engage the public in that too.

D

Certainly, if it got preview coverage and.

D

So- and I agree, you know as we get closer to starting a master plan, these are all the things.

D

To think about, maybe there's a um parks and green space element to the master plan.

D

We haven't had before so yeah, okay, so it seems to me like we want to hear from the.

B

Planning director, if possible, at our next meeting, okay um saturday date january 5th, so.

B

um If we could bring in, I guess the for the next governance committee. Yes,.

B

um I think at a minimum it would be helpful for the planning director to know what we're thinking.

B

And the planning around this, because we also don't want to get in the way of the planning department.

B

um If they have any plans to do something of this sort, so.

B

That that's also critical to remember, and that will be our next steps.

B

um The last thing on our agenda, new committee, member orientation, materials- and um I would note.

B

That the deputy city attorney has been working on this or deputy city manager. I should say.

A

Excuse me you're still the deputy city attorney as well. Holding a lot of hats is, it has been.

B

Working on this and is sharing with us, is this a new version? No, no we're still trying to tweak.

E

To to get the formatting such that, um I got a little spacing we're still dealing with, but.

E

um We recently brought on a new member of the cable commission. Yes, and it was um interesting.

E

Because the the existing members, you know quickly, did a review of what you should and should not do.

E

As a committee member on their own about emails- and I thought well that was great um and and.

E

I would like to I gotta fix some formatting uh bits and pieces here, but we were trying to come.

E

Up with something that you know, rather than the page of white text that you know people say, oh.

E

Here's a handout I should read, and then they put it aside that this might be visually attractive.

E

Enough and short enough that at least it would get people the new committee members thinking.

E

And asking questions or double checking with their committee members or their chair or whatever staff.

E

Person, so it really is meant to be almost a prop rather than an exhaustive here's. What to do and.

E

Not do from a public records point of view and here's why we do certain things like keep minutes.

E

um And you know kelly uh the city clerk. Could, you know, provide them to each new committee.

E

Member, just as to kind of spark it off it's it's not meant to be exhausted, just exhaustive! It's.

E

Just meant to be oh wait. I, if I'm not clear on something I should. I should ask someone.

E

um So that was our thought, something just to be a prompt for some conversations about public.

E

Records and minutes and social media so that you know they'd come in a little more attentive and.

E

Mindful to some of these basic things, particularly for some of our smaller committees, that you know.

E

They they're doing good work, but you know, may not be um yeah. They may be new to committee work and.

E

So I think this is great, so this was really you know, based on the conversations we had.

E

Early on this year in this committee about helping people understand their obligations.

C

And I again, I know that well, the the packet that was put together for the council and I.

C

Also know the packet that's put together for new htc members is very thorough as well, but that is.

C

Those are both pretty heavy duty yeah, as opposed to this right. This was meant to be the light, lift.

E

For some, you know for people on our smaller committees again doing important work, but you.

E

Know maybe aren't ready to read a five-page. You know here's what you need to do and not do and.

E

Again, to get the conversation going so sounds great. It's the it's. The voice of experience.

D

You know it's really boiled down to.

D

The do's and don'ts- I know that I love this. I think it's really helpful um and one of.

B

The things that I really loved, coming in as a new city counselor, were all the videos about different.

B

Departments that we watched the city councilors to learn about what all the departments are and.

B

What they do, I think it was incredibly helpful who they are who the people are. um I think it would be.

B

Wonderful also, if we had some type of orientation videos that we set up for everyone serving on any.

B

um Board or committee only because people take in information differently in different ways.

B

Some people respond better to a video and it's helpful for them to understand not just the.

B

General information: these are the rules. This is how we do it, but why we do it that way. Yeah.

B

um I think it it's particularly different difficult for new people serving to.

B

Understand the legal side of service and what the legal protections are or not.

B

When you're serving not just an elected official as an elected official but also on a committee.

B

Especially a quasi-judicial board as well helping them just to.

B

Get kind of general background on why things work a certain way and and how they actually work.

B

I think would be helpful. You could just have a few quick videos and you could ask.

B

Made a note asked someone to to make those, yes um incoming legal consultant, who liked to do videos.

B

To do those as well um just so that uh people fully understand their role and responsibilities.

E

Yeah, I agree the multi-modalities, because we all learn differently and yeah.

B

Right, I think people also could have continuing questions. You know I still have questions around.

B

um You know personnel issues and and what you discuss in non-public session versus a public.

B

Session, what's allowed what's and that's minutia in the law around personnel matters.

B

You know whole people devote their entire careers to law around human resources, so.

B

um Those are things that I don't know, and so I'm I'm always kind of.

B

Asking those little questions, so I think it's helpful for people to understand.

D

It's really important to understand. I don't know, obviously coming from.

D

The fourth estate and a newspaper background for our volunteers to understand why.

D

We have to do all this business in public because it's onerous- it's not easy, but if.

D

They understand the philosophy behind that of you know. Everything we do is open and visible.

D

And that's a it's hard to get that get to that, but it's! The alternative is worse.

A

Okay, this is great yes,.

A

Thank you again, yeah. Thank you. So much.

B

um Other business, um the first thing I have under other business is our meeting schedule.

B

And making sure that we have enough meetings, um we should probably go out to the end of.

B

The year at this stage, I would think um we have a meeting scheduled for the 31st right. I should note.

B

But I was concerned because things start booking up when you get into november and december again,.

B

um So I wanted to to check on everyone's schedule for november um and then december.

B

um If, if we were to move out two weeks from our our meeting on the 31st, that puts us.

B

On a council night in the past, we've tried to avoid that, um so we could go.

B

um Either one week or we could go three weeks um so that would be november 7th or november 21st.

D

January no on november, oh for governance,.

B

So we have a governance meeting just october 31st and the challenge is, then: we get into.

B

November and yeah yes, yeah! Well, you get. You know a lot of family time, a.

B

Lot of family time exactly and that's why I thought we should approach this now. Yeah.

C

Well, I guess I have no problem.

C

Having it the same day as city council,.

C

um Like on the 14th yeah, the 14th councilor chamber, how do you feel about that.

D

We'll go certainly that's really the only shot right we could do the 21st, but I don't know if.

B

Everyone will be in town because it's the week of thanksgiving and people have a tendency to either.

B

Travel early or travel late, yeah I mean yeah yeah. I know I'm not available the 28th yeah because.

B

That's fall break for us, not just thanksgiving so yeah and that's the monday after thanksgiving some.

D

People travel exactly so we can do the 14th I'm if everyone is comfortable with that on a city.

B

Council day, okay, so I'm going to pencil this in then for governance um monday, the 14th at 10 a.m,.

A

Okay- and that would mean we have one meeting in november- then we get to december.

B

um And the first monday in december is again a um city council meeting day. um We could go to the.

B

Second, uh the 12th um of december, if that's better for everyone, I should note, though, that after that.

B

um We can't meet the 19th and then we'll have uh we have. We have because of the.

B

Hanukkah holiday right and then we have christmas holidays and then so.

B

um So what are you saying that 12th the 12th of december? um If we want to avoid that fifth.

B

The date on the fifth, and if, for some reason, we feel like we need to meet more than once.

B

um In december, we can always come back and add a date in it's. The only city council of the.

C

City council meeting on the 14th at the moment: yes, it's the fifth and the 14th and the 14th.

B

They're right, on top of each other because of the holidays, yeah the holiday schedule. So I know just.

C

Yeah making sure that there's not another one somewhere, I don't think so. Let's hope.

C

Not so you want to do it on the 12th. Does the 12th work in december, for you, okay,.

B

um I think that's probably um the best thing we can do at the moment um and because we don't have.

B

um The council schedule yet for january, then I think we should probably wait to schedule.

B

um Schedule for january, we'll have the council scheduled by december, we'll be able to then.

B

Schedule out for january february, I do well pattern the same as yeah. I think it would be.

B

The same pattern, I think, it'd be pretty similar yeah. We probably will be meeting in january before.

B

um The first council meeting, because the council meeting seems to come a little bit later.

D

Well, we'll have two council meetings, I'm sure.

B

Probably looking at a january 9th meeting.

B

D

um Yeah, the 16th is a holiday yeah, right, yeah, 9th and 23rd. First and third right.

C

um So for governance too: um well, that's the question for governance, then, because.

B

There's a holiday on the 16th yeah you're, stuck with one of the council days, yeah or.

B

Waiting almost a month and a half before you meet again um or moving it to a wednesday.

B

And that's kind of the those are the options in january. um I I don't ever love moving the day.

B

Of the week, because I think it it becomes more challenging for not just getting the room, but.

C

Yeah, it becomes confusing to people who are used to coming on mondays, so we could. We could also.

B

Pencil in a date for january, it would be three weeks from the previous governance meeting tonight.

C

Well, probably being also a city council meeting yeah, the ninth would be four weeks.

B

Four weeks out just fairly significant time frame, I mean it's a month a month between meetings, so.

D

um Well, that would be normal for the holidays, though right I would just hate.

B

To push it to the 23rd, I think that that's pushing it a little bit far and because of.

B

The holiday, we can't do it on the 16th, so we should put in the ninth for now yeah.

D

um Going back to november, though, yes, that's the only council meeting of the month correct so.

D

Those do tend to stack up with long agendas. They do that's gonna be a long day. That's the thing.

B

I'm I'm worried about. I just I don't think you'd put one week between meetings and I don't know.

B

I'm not traveling on the 21st, but I don't know if either one of you are and so that's what I don't.

B

Want to yeah I'm not! I don't want you to be in a situation where you're a three-person committee.

D

Well, are you no, I'm not sure I may be traveling that week, but oh, no, not not on november. No sorry.

B

November, the 21st the first day before um the monday before thanksgiving yeah. So we could move.

B

It, let's have to pick up the turkey, I guess okay! Well, if that's the case, maybe we should go ahead.

B

And move the 14th of the 21st, I'm good with that. I think so. Yeah, that's good! I think okay.

B

I'm not traveling, yet let's do that yeah and then we're not stacked up against a council day right.

A

Right yeah at the long yeah yeah on today's journey of the night, whenever we can avoid it.

B

It's the best practice to do so. I think january is more difficult because of the holiday in there.

B

Okay, so we have a we're a few months out now. Then um upcoming committee topics.

B

I should also let you know we still have the sidewalk policy on our list.

B

um We have a donations policy coming up that we have to discuss. We also still have to review the.

B

Conflict of interest provisions um in our ordinance and I'm sure there will be more.

B

um With that said, is there anything else? I should say upcoming committee topics that I should be.

B

Watching for that, you think we need to raise it's not on our list.

D

We probably will start talking about.

D

The master plan, although that that responsibility lies with zoning, that's the zoning part.

D

So never mind: okay,.

B

All right, I don't know, oops, there's nothing for now. Of course, we'll be able to discuss this at.

B

Every single meeting- and you can always raise an issue if you, if you want to add an issue to.

B

The agenda please reach out to cynthia in the legal department um so that we can get that on.

B

The agenda um I'm going to open the floor for a public comment. Is there anyone who wants to speak.

B

Okay and there's no one on zoom, so we have no public comment today.

C

Return. That's your second all in favor, aye, um we're adjourned.