City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Governance Committee, 27 Mar 2023

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From YouTube: 3.27.2023 Governance Committee

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3.27.2023 Governance Committee

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Good morning, um I'm going to call this meeting of the governance committee to.

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Order we will start with a roll call, counselor tabor, I'm here and I'm counselor cook and I'm.

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Here, councilor lombardi is away today. um The the first thing we would normally do.

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In this meeting is review and approve the minutes of the meeting, I'm going to.

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Wait until council lombardi can return. If that's okay with you counselor tabor, you.

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um So under old business I said I would give a parks update this morning. I'm still working on.

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That I don't have a much of an update yet so um so stay tuned. I will put this again on the.

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Agenda for our next meeting and hopefully we'll have uh a more thorough update. Then.

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As far as the administrative ordinance committee language cleanup goes, um anyone who's on zoom or.

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Watching this later will know that we had been working on administrative ordinance, changes for.

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Months as a committee, um and then we hit a snag in the process, because there were questions about.

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um Ways that we could or could not change uh term stagger um for specific committees, especially.

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Those that are governed by state law by rsa- I think this impacts, mostly our land use boards, so.

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As a result, we've been kind of um in a holding pattern trying to decide how we would handle that.

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At the moment, the thinking that I'm receiving from our legal counsel and anyone here can correct me.

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If I'm wrong is that we should go ahead and go back to rather than changing the ordinance.

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To reflect a request for stagger, yet we should go back to the committees that have these challenges.

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That are not governed by rsa, so that would be committees like parking traffic and safety.

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um And say you have a challenge with your stagger.

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Do you want to address this in your own committee and see if you have any recommendations on how you.

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Want to fix it as a committee and and let them then come back to us if they want any.

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Additional change to the rsa or if they want to address it directly with the city clerk's.

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Office and voluntarily change their own terms or how they how their thinking is on that, and um I.

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Will volunteer to gladly come to their committee meeting to share kind of the concerns that we had.

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Around sagar, if any of those committees want to go ahead and address it, that way.

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um But then that leaves us with some of the other changes we were making to the administrative.

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Ordinance around just cleaning up language: this is a challenge, so um I am giving this update today to.

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Let everyone know that this is where we are, that likely, the administrative ordinance will come back.

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To the committee, probably at our next meeting, to at least discuss the language cleanup issue.

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And so that we can at least move that process forward, rather than staying on hold with that with.

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The term stagger: are there any questions? Well, I think it makes sense to have a bottom-up approach.

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Some options which we've discussed have had resolve their stagger problem.

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Be helpful and.

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If we could agree with them on.

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When they might address it, you know just in terms of follow-through.

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I think that's better, though, than than us.

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Trying to create one-size-fits all.

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uh Solutions for it.

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Thank you, councilor, retriever and, and it's reasonable for us, then, when we're looking at these.

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Phile committee language cleanup to provide some advisory language potentially for the mayor and.

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Handling this in the future, but not not mandating, I guess is, is I think, where we currently are.

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um And we will wait and see what else we hear. So um if, if there's nothing else on that topic,.

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I want to move on to the major subject of the day, which is new business.

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um Today we are starting our discussion of conflict of interest and.

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um Conflict of interest is very complicated um for the city because it is in.

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All of our governing documents in some way or another, from our administrative ordinances to.

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Our rules, the city charter, and it's also in um our state law that governs our practice.

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So I think it's it's important that we kind of look at these documents and take a broader view.

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And so I have taken the documents that impact us and created a um kind of a chart of all the.

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Different documents, and so those start with our our administrative ordinances, 1801 1901-1902.

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Council rule 21. the city charter, sections, 3.8 3.14, and amendment c. I believe, there's.

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Another amendment as well um amendment e that I did not list on here on the agenda.

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um And then we have rsas as well that impact us directly, which we clearly have no control over.

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um So I think I'm going to share here the key documents list.

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um For conflict of interest, this is for the record for those at home so that they know what we are.

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Brief referring to what we are reviewing, um the charter provisions are a little bit.

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More complicated, so we are looking first here at ordinances. The code of ethics.

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Section 1 802, which specifically is conflict of interest. We did not look at this when we.

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Discussed ethics. As a committee, we decided we would come back to conflicts of interest.

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um And then we also have a conflict of interest. Mandatory financial disclosure requirements.

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That's 1901, it's mostly definitions, but then you.

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Get to 1902, you have an election candidate, financial disclosures.

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And then you have the recommended financial disclosure form. That's in rsa 15a, the city.

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Has its own form through the city clerk's office? I think that's important to recognize and when.

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We get to this particular discussion. We will invite the city clerk to come.

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Then there's a the city charter and these are the relevant clauses um around conflict of interest.

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What qualifications are required? um Politics? What you know joint service, you can't serve on one and.

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Be an employee pecuniary interest code of ethics, references holding other offices, non-interference.

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By the council and city manager um activity there's the fire commission's eligibility.

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Removal removal, incompatible offices, there's a com, a whole conflict of interest, section amendment c.

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And then there's also amendment e, which is for the police department, again eligibility.

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Removal and compatible offices, so those are all the sections of the city charter that.

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Have anything to do with conflict of interest, even if they're not directly related to it? They.

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Enlighten us on particular conflicts, then we have council, rule 21, conflict of interest.

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And then under state law, these are much more, I think confusing when you go through them. The.

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Powers of conflict of interest, ordinance, non-interference by an elected body.

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um This, the transition provisions section provides some guidance on conflict of interest.

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There's also general provisions on disqualification of members.

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And that's for land use boards, so I should note that's for land use boards.

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There's a it's on code of ethics, but this is for the executive branch so note that this is.

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um This is more guidance for the state thinking around code of ethics. um Confident is there.

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Ethics committee establishment, jurisdiction and membership, and so this governs what the executive.

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Branch does, but it provides some guidance for us too to know what the state is thinking.

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So um so those are all the key documents. I thought I would run through them with everyone and.

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um We've invited um legal counsel, bob sullivan here today to share thoughts on conflict of.

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Interest and kind of enlighten us on on some of the challenges around this and addressing it.

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Sure, as uh as both you know already and.

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Like that everybody ought to know, this is a really complicated and difficult area in which to work.

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Both state law, I think, and the citizens at large, require or desire that the city have a conflict.

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Of interest ordinance, then we have one: we've had it for a long time um and there have been.

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Occasionally, flare-ups of great complexity and difficulty caused by it. One of the things is this.

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Portsmouth is a city, but it's not new york city and everybody can know everybody and the city of.

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This size, which means that a tremendous number of actions that a person takes in their capacity as.

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A city official, whether elected or employed or appointed, can involve people. They know involve.

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Businesses they participate in it uh if, if, uh if some, really harsh line in order to be drawn.

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On ethics, requiring that nobody do anything if it involves anybody or anything that they.

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Know anything about um and frankly, government in the city would grind to a halt, necessarily.

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So that means that really difficult decisions have to be made and every step along the way up. Gee.

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What should be loud and what should not be allowed and keep in mind that uh we have people serving.

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Appointed positions of uh of of great authority, we have people who serve in relatively nominal.

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Positions where they really don't have authority, and it seems that you know what the standards.

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That should apply to these people should vary in accordance with how much harm a conflict could.

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Actually cause to the city, so this is a what what council cook and I have discussed and is that uh a.

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Logical approach for the committee this committee to take would be to march section by section.

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Right through the existing conflict of interest ordinance, so that the committee members are.

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Confident in understanding what it does and doesn't do and uh and then having having this.

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In your heads, the committee would then consider what to keep what to change and what new. Perhaps.

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To add from what currently exists and- and then after all, that's done, the idea would be that.

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The committee would make a recommendation to the city council because, as I said, the conflict of.

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Interest provisions are in our code of ethics ordinance and therefore, ultimately, it's the.

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Council, which will make the decision based upon your recommendations, so it's the bottom line is.

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Big job, I think it's going to take some time. I would also anticipate some lively debate about.

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The content of the conflict and racist interest in code of ethics ordinances- uh that certainly is.

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Historically, been true in some of that, history will probably come back during that debate.

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So uh I think that you know, as you know, I'm retired, but I think that the the plan is if.

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uh That susie and is going to want me to stay with you and do this and I'm certainly happy to do it.

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Thank you so much for being here and providing us advice, because your knowledge of the history.

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Of um this issue is invaluable to this committee and addressing it.

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Right, I still have scars, I could show you.

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You really do. Are there any questions about yeah? If I could question for bob.

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It looks to me like.

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Would I be correct in assuming that there's a fair amount of state statute about conflict of interest.

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Naming pecuniary interest primarily, I think that is a correct assumption and particularly.

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With regard to the land use boards, I think that probably state loss, that's a standard.

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As high as you would want to go right, they set a juror standard, which is uh this land use board.

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Member were to sit on this case as a juror. Would he be potentially or she be potentially.

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Disqualified, because of pre-existing bias because of financial interests, it's a very high standard.

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But since we're not a home rule state there's only so far, we can go beyond state statute.

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And well, of course, the it's correct that we're not a home rule state, meaning that the city.

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Only has authority to drop those laws which are specifically authorized by the legislature that.

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The city may adopt, however, there is specific state legislation, there's enabling legislation.

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For code of ethics, so that probably not going to be the problem unless the council were to.

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Seek to go beyond request sort of a conflict of interest. Let me give you a good example. um Every.

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Collective bargaining agreement that we have in the city is required to have a grievance procedure.

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In it to resolve problems and every conflict of and every um collective buying agreement has in.

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A provision which will describe how unemployed could be disciplined or terminated, for example,.

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Now disciplinary terminated employee often involve the same type of conduct or action, which uh would.

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Be which would implicate a code of ethics or a conflict of interest? But in a case where you have.

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A disciplined procedure defined by a collective bargaining agreement that limits your authority or.

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Limits the council's authority to adopt a conflict of interest provision. You can't go. You cannot by.

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Means of a code of ethics ordinance create [music] um a more compelling or a more difficult or more.

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Punishing a disciplinary procedure, then, is authorized by collective agreement. For that.

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Any particular employee that you might be talking about and, of course, not everybody's in the union,.

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So that would not be a principle applicable to everyone. I would not apply to action against.

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A city councilor, for example, right, but it would apply to an action against a public works, employee.

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And I I think it's good that we go through section by section what we have now.

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um I think one question that I have in my mind as we go through, that is.

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There's very little, uh there seems to be a bright shining line about having a financial interest.

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So if a governing body has a member who has a financial interest in something that's being.

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Discussed that always you need the state statute in our local ordinance in other cities, ordinance.

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You know that always is defined as a conflict of interest, because.

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You know I like the languages and it's in one of our. You know we have conflict.

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In so many different places, we have this language. I can't remember which whether it's.

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The ordinances or the council rule or the charter or the amendment, but um it says somebody on a.

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A public official should have no more interest than any other citizen or taxpayer.

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And if he has an interest greater than any other citizen or taxpayer, that's when he or she should.

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Say I've got a conflict. This is going to become exceedingly nuanced. That can't be avoided right.

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As you go, do your work. I consider this. For example, a few recommended ordinance that.

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Contains a disciplinary code with punishments for city employees, some person whom the city has hired.

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And pays uh to comply with our rules. That is a radically different in situation. Then, if you adopt.

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A code which has standards and punishment for an elected official, let's say a city, councilor city,.

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Councilors are not hired by the city they're, not really paid by the city and are not as subject to.

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The city's right to discipline them as a public works employee is so you know, there's a the kind.

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Of thing that you will find yourself having to deal with as you go through this code of ethics.

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um Before I forget, let me say this about court of ethics. It's old! It has uh generally not been.

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Amended or dealt with uh in in well at least 40 years that I personally know of and possibly.

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Before that, so some of it is anachronistic and again dated and I'm sure you will find provisions.

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In the code of ethics that you want to change, but it's not going to be an easy job to do it. It looks.

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Like we at one point had a city referendum to have a conflict of interest, ordinance.

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Was voted on election day by the voters that this is what they wanted to have.

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And then there's subsequently there's the ordinances that we have grafted. So I mean it.

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Was very much, the intent of the voters have some kind of conflict of interest, ordinance.

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And then it then it was codified, but as you say, that was a long time ago,.

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And that was uh it not so much the code of ethics. Part of it, though disclosures.

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And financial, disclosures etc, as I recall, but the first one adopted by a referendum, 1987.

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Well, it's 40 years old now.

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So you are, you are taking a big bite out of the pie here.

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I I should add one of the challenges that I see is you know really where, where are the limitations.

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Of um even financial disclosure and- and the reason that I highlight this- is that.

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um In in my past, work experience in the state department.

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When you assumed a senior role, you had to divest of all foreign investment.

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um So even your 401k, even your you, had to move all of your investments.

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That were outside of the united states. You had to sell them.

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And reposition all your funds in the u.s, it was considered a conflict of interest.

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um You know how far do you go even with financial disclosure, even of elected officials? Do you ask.

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Them to go through their entire 401k or 403b, and look at every company and see if there's.

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Any financial interests in the city of portsmouth when people haven't even most people, don't really.

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Know where all those investments sit or managed by an outside company? So there is a question on.

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Financial disclosure, I think of how far do you go, you know, is it direct financial.

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um You're you're at actual direct financial interest or is it you know I held my bank.

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Account at this bank and this bank funds several development projects downtown. So therefore, I'm.

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I'm in trouble financially, you know so they're they're real. There are lines even with. I is what.

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I would say, with financial disclosure and um being careful with um sure on the surface of it, it would.

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Seem uh appealing, I think that average citizen that gee anybody involved with the city should.

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Just close uh every element of interest they have in any business that does uh has any involvement.

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In city government, um but that would mean a city council, for example, would have to divulge their.

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Savings account in a bank that finances a municipal project.

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Which gee, if you have standards that high you will find it exceedingly difficult to find.

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People willing to participate in the government because you're so intrusive for no real reason.

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Into their personal lives and businesses, so as it says, it's not going to be easy work.

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Are there any other pitfalls? I guess is my question that we should be watching out for.

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Well, I think, look there there's conflict and there's the appearance of conflict.

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That is absolutely true, and um you know, certainly if.

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If I'm on the zoning board and I own an adjacent parcel of land.

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And there's going to be benef development that enhances my property value, I'm directly conflicted.

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Actual conflict, I think, even on the state line yeah right. But what about.

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An apparent conflict of interest where there's no pecuniary interest.

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Well, for example, I sit on the board of prescott park arts festival. I have a fiduciary duty.

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To do things as board chairman that benefit that non-profit, and that often I find conflicts with.

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Should I role as a city counselor like approving their um their lease fee for the park.

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um So I I just recuse, but it's not legally a conflict, there's no pecuniary injury, parent.

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Conflicts, brutal topic to deal with and here's why? um In order to maintain the confidence of the.

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Citizens in the integrity of their government, you can't have things that appear to be a.

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Serious conflict of interest go forward without being dealt with. You know the people they want.

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They don't they don't want to think that their government is operating with anything that looks.

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Bad looks like an appearance of conflict. However, there might be no real conflict.

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um Let's say suzanne and I are very close: she has a real estate development project and, uh and I'm.

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I'm you know in the city legal department, writing all kinds of opinions about real estate projects.

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Should I be a little allowed in any way to be involved in her real estate development at all.

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Should anybody in the legal department be writing things about her real estate development? So it's.

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You know these things are in invisible lines that you have to draw somehow I don't.

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I don't know so you have to deal with conflicts. You have to deal with a parent.

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Conflict but it is going to be really hard to find a way to do it without being on without.

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Creating such a burden on otherwise innocent, honest people right that.

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That the quality of government actually goes down because of the quality of people you can get to.

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Participate yeah, and I that to me, is a really hard question of is the apparent conflict from.

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So glaring, in the public's mind that they're saying this person can't be objective, and I was.

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Noticing conquered conflict of interest policy talks about financial interest.

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As a clear con conflict, but then says, an apparent conflict of interest is one that does not affect.

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A person's financial interests but does call into question his or her objectivity and independence.

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It names it but there's no cure for and of course, apparent to whom right.

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You know that you need, if you're gonna have subjective things which uh become.

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The objective measurement, uh then you have to specify who makes that decision right and.

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In some cases, like new hampshire, municipal association says well, the elected official.

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Or land use appointee can say, can bring it up in public session before topics discussed and say.

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You know I have what would appear to be the conflict and.

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An average citizen can say I'm not objective, so I want to raise this now and can even ask for a.

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Vote and get advisory vote an advisory vote, but at least then it's all out on the table.

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Also raises another issue, though, as well, whose job is it to enforce conflict of interest disclosure.

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So you know the question of like an advisory vote. Is it? Is it the job of the council as a whole?.

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To enforce it, or is it the job of individual members of the council to be compliant and to.

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Disclose- and I the reason I ask this- is that um if you were looking not just at the council but.

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If you're, looking at individuals serving on, say, the zoning board um do other members of.

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The zoning board have the authority to enforce disclosure on another member of the zoning board.

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Rather than that member just having to disclose it, because we have a whole process for that, if.

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Somebody doesn't disclosed, and it's deemed that there's a complaint file that there's a conflict.

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Of interest, we have an ethics process for that, but there really isn't an enforcement mechanism.

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That triggers before you hit the complaint ethics process. It is left to individual elected officials.

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Or appointed officials to disclose um and um and then I have the question of are their fellow.

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Members on that border, the council even qualified to make the call on the part of that individual.

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You to a very large degree we'll get to control this by where you do.

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um I do I have kind of a recommendation which goes along those lines which is, it is sadder and I've.

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Written somewhere, I've read somewhere that the great evil of conflicts of interest is that the.

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True motivation of a person in the government and taking their action is not apparent to all that's.

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Known well back to my earlier example: I'm writing legal opinions in a city, legal apartment, suzanne.

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Is my friend she has a real estate development going. So I write some opinion. That's going.

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To allow her to make more money that entirely secret, nobody would know that had ever happened.

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And that's the the evil of the conflicts of interest now. For that reason, it was either.

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Louis brandeis or felix frankfurter one of those supreme court judges who wrote that sunshine is.

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The greatest disinfectant! So if I announce gee suzanne's a close friend of mine and I'm.

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Writing this opinion. It has some effect on our real estate development project. Now at least.

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There is no secret agenda or secret motivation that isn't apparent to everyone and people.

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Listening to what I say after that will be able to weigh my statements with that in mind.

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So let's say well, you know he may be a friend of suzanne, but what he's saying makes perfect.

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Sense, so you know we'll listen to it or or something else, so so what this leads.

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To uh is my recommendation to you that in doing your work, you consider that disclosure.

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Of interest is a cure to a great many conflicts of interests, for the reason that I said so, you might.

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Think about just you know, requiring disclosure so that people can decide for themselves if it's.

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A city council who has to just close then the people that decide at their next election, whether.

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They want to take some action or not because of it, um but in that kind of thing, so I maybe.

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By considering that disclosure solves a lot of problems, you can make things a little simple.

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And a little more clean by compelling disclosures and then letting nature take its course afterwards.

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I think there's another reason to disclose. In the example of you know, councilor cook was asking.

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Should the should the body itself discuss the conflict? Well, if they don't discuss it and then.

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Somebody tries to avoid the action of that board or that council.

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You know you will wish you had disclosed it and discussed it.

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Yeah, and that in fact is the lawn is in the zoning and planning context, a person who believes that a.

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Board member is disqualified by reason of a conflict is required to state that as early.

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As it's known, rather than hold it as an ace card until a decision comes out and if they.

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Don't like it, then they bring up the conflict and content overturning board, in which case the.

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All the board's deliberation has been wasted time because you might have to do it all. That is why.

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That is why we advise the planning board and the zoning board to announce early on and the plane.

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Board at least used to do this very regularly at every meeting. Anyone who feels that any member.

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Of this board has a conflict in connection with their case should raise that issue uh now.

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um And the reason that statement gets made by the planning board is it prevents a person who.

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Feels there's a conflict from bringing up later. I bring it up later on after.

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All the deliberations of the completed right, it's a very clear law on there.

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But I think that's a theme as we go through these, that.

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One way to deal with apparent conflict or even real financial conflict.

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To bring it up in open session and discuss it sure. So if I'm I'm on the planning board and.

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There's a site review application in front of me for a bank, and I work for a different bank.

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I announced early on at the meeting. I work for a different bank than the applicant bank. I don't.

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Feel I have any conflict, I don't have any direct pecuniary interest and that, frankly, it's not a.

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Consequence to me whether the other bank does well or not so I intend to vote and then a person can.

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Raise it, then, if they feel that's a problem and if they don't raise it, then it's waived right and.

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Oftentimes that there have been some cases court cases where zoning decisions like that have been.

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Challenged and the court has said the board covered this and those of you who didn't speak.

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Up at the time, you waved your right to come back later and address it in court. Exactly my point.

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This also, though, raises the concern that you may have.

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If, if you ask at the beginning of meetings, if you this becomes the habit of asking.

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If anyone has a conflict of interest, like council legal counsel sullivan, said earlier,.

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um Because portsmouth is a small enough city, people know one another and they go.

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Places at the council level that may open you to um regular accusations of conflict.

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When it's it's more a concern around appearance of conflict and there actually isn't.

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Conflict, for example, if someone owned a business in town and the council was dealing with a new.

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Ordinance that might impact any business and so well. Everyone who owns a business then should be.

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You know automatically excluded from the discussion, but that would in limit.

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The ability of the council to take action on any proposal and it probably isn't a direct conflict.

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Having mentioned the council, I think it's also going to be absolutely necessary for you, as you do.

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Your work to consider the difference between those public officials who act in a quasi-judicial act.

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Capacity such as a zoning border planning board, who was supposed to be neutral.

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uh When they ended their deliberations and counselors who serve in a legislative.

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Capacity, not a judicial capacity and not only our accounts. Our counselors are not expected.

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To be neutral, they are in fact elected to their positions because of the viewpoints.

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Which they bring into those positions and so the standard, the conflict of interest, standard.

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Is uh is much more relaxed for legislative bodies than for judicial? Well, the reason that I said.

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You know if everybody on the city council got elected because they were neutral on every single.

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Issue then there will be no difference whatsoever between the people running for council. You might.

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As well pick them out of a hat yeah, I mean, if somebody says, you're predisposed, you're, biased.

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To vote for more affordable housing when you have the opportunity, well, that's a great! We ran on it.

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And you know to some extent, that that we put that before the voters who get elected because of your.

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Biases, what you, if you stand up at candidates, nights and announce which you write down on.

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Paper and mail to everybody in the city which you you know your bias is: what gets you to your.

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Into your position, so that would be the same for all the volunteer boards. Okay, volunteer.

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Committees as well for committee service people who we well appoint to committees because they.

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Have a direct interest in that subject matter: I'm thinking of committees like arts and nonprofits.

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Or the economic development commission, or you know, we usually appoint people who are in that.

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Field working in the city, so that is certainly true. Look at the the people who want to be on.

C

The historic district commission, for example, are people who have an interest in historic matters.

C

You know they're anything, but the average uninformed citizen.

E

um About at 11, because I have another commitment- I just wanted to offer up one of the things that.

E

Kind of jumped out at me, as I was reviewing once more the existing ordinances and then the charter.

E

Is that it might be helpful if you're going to dive into this area to really look at definitions.

E

And kind of pick things apart, rather than trying to group things all together, for example, as bob.

E

Already pointed down is obvious to everyone. Employees are in a very different category.

E

And while there's certainly a lot of overlap and conflict of interest with elected officials, it.

E

Might be helpful to kind of call them out a little more clearly, then, is in our current ordinance.

E

Because, as you read along there's a reference to employees and then it skips and then it's just.

E

Elected officials or appointed boards, and it's just a little hard- you know to untangle easily.

E

So, structure, definitions. um I noticed I think somewhere I read, there's the word family, whereas.

E

And I thought well, what does that mean versus? I noticed in it was one of the state ordinances.

E

um I think where they define it's a spouse or dependence, and so there's a real, clear.

E

Boundary to that which I thought was useful, I think it was with the financial disclosure so.

E

That was just my my kind of quick. You know really chunk it out and and look at either definitions.

E

Or structure, to make things a little clearer and I think that will help the conversation.

E

uh Move forward because there is so much here and I I definitely agree with bob, I think.

E

You know there's nothing like putting your all the cards on the table.

E

um To understand that, and and it is important to distinguish between the legislative role.

E

And the different role that, for example, the quasi-judicial boards have to.

E

Have to grow good that you covered that ground, because I think that's very important.

B

Yeah, I think it raises the question to me of how comprehensive do we want to try to be.

B

When I look at our ordinance, it covers employees and officials, it covers.

B

Quasi-Judicial and it covers legislative and when I look at other cities in the state.

B

They all pretty much do the same and they all have about.

B

A page and a half or two pages focused on pecuniary interest.

B

So you know how comprehensive do we want to go? Do.

B

We want to try to do something for each of those different classes and.

B

Employee quasi-judicial elected there's plenty of case law about each setting standards.

B

um And how broken do we think the ordinance that we have now is it's old, but is it broken.

A

Yeah, I would highlight, in the current ordinance.

A

um We are doing better than some of our neighboring towns and currently.

A

We have a neighboring town that has a particular challenge around having a mayor who's. Also, the.

A

In effect assistant, superintendent of schools so um and then- and so there are.

A

Constant questions around conflict and we forbid elected officials from surveying in employee roles.

A

With the city, so you have to relinquish their job the day of the canvas of the vote exactly exactly.

A

So that so we already, I have to say, are ahead of some of our neighboring communities and the state.

A

um So there is a lot of merit in the current conflict of interest.

A

um Provisions well, I could suggest a goal for you. [music] um The.

C

It's this, the average citizen comes home, it used to be, they read the newspaper. Now they come home.

C

And scan the internet, but they see all kinds of bad things happen and all kinds of other.

C

Municipalities all over the country in the world, and it causes them to think in the back of their.

C

Minds a little bit gee, maybe some of that kind of stuff is going on here. Well, um I personally.

C

Don't believe any of that kind of stuff is going on here and uh but the point I'm trying to make.

C

Is that it is really necessary that the citizens of the community have confidence in the honesty.

C

Integrity and ethics of the government, it is like one of the most important things that can happen.

C

uh So the goal which I am suggesting for you in writing or recommending your code of ethics.

C

Changes that that be the talisman, well, everything that you write. You know everything you recommend.

C

Help make the public more confident about the integrity of the government or or be.

C

Harmful, or is it necessary for that purpose? Is it not necessary for that purpose, and.

C

And so I think that's a standard you can use to measure things as you go about your work.

C

And it's a good standard and if it succeeds, then you know you've done what really needs to be done.

B

Yeah- and I you know back when we worked on the ethics board and modernizing that language.

B

um We had that great article from new york state. That said, you know.

B

Ethics and morality can be different. You know somebody can have a small financial.

B

Interest in something before city, council or boards- and they may act morally, but.

B

You want a strong ethics ordinance that says we don't want to even want to have somebody tempted.

B

In that situation, we want to prevent any occurrence of that.

B

Where somebody has a direct interest in what's being discussed so that that the ethics guideline.

B

Takes even a moral person and says we're not going to even tempt you.

B

We're going to remove this temptation, we're going to remove the situation where you have.

B

An interest greater than any other citizen, you can't do that and I think that's where it gets to.

B

What you're saying the citizen can have confidence that we have that that bulwark in place, that that.

B

Prevents somebody from even having the temptation.

B

You know, like caesar's wife calpurnia has to be above reproach, mm-hmm.

C

You can use that example. The past.

B

But I think that's you know, that's the it's another way of saying the same goal.

B

Is there is, is there a bulwark in place so that the citizen feels like.

B

um A good person or a bad person would be treated equally and and fenced out of any.

B

Situation where they have a financial interest or direct interest in what's being discussed.

C

Probably the two moments in any given year, in which the average citizen thinks the most.

C

About the city government are the two times when they write the checks to pay their taxes.

C

At least to think, as they wrecked that check, gee.

C

This is a lot of money, but I know the people who, uh representing me in city hall, are honest.

C

Hard-Working people trying to do a good job, yeah sign her name yeah exactly exactly.

B

And I you know personally, I think what we have now.

B

Is more comprehensive than other towns and cities goes beyond state statute, and it's pretty good.

B

I'll be at old.

D

um You know so I mean: where can it be improved.

A

And- and I think that that's where we as a committee- that's our jumping off point where.

A

Can we improve what we already have? I know there's some areas that I definitely want to.

A

Look at around election disclosure, I think is- is pretty minimal, so um I think we we probably.

A

Have to look at that, and um and the annual disclosure reforms that are filed are also.

A

Pretty minimal, so we should probably look at that as well and see if, if people are.

A

If the the questions asked for disclosure are all encompassing of the intent of the charter, language.

A

And that's really the question: does it fit the charter language? Because.

A

um Changing the charter is a whole different process, so we need to make.

A

Sure we're what we feel like we're fully in compliance with the charter, language.

C

Of course, that's why I'm here to help you with that kind of stuff, and- and you know I've been.

C

Around a long time and I've seen a lot of disputes and I certainly will stay with you till the end.

B

Recall the origin of the ordinances that we now have 801 and 901 unless them were.

C

In place before I came to work for the city really wow, they really are really pretty.

C

And that's why they could stand a review technologies, change society's changed.

A

Yes, yeah, that's what I'm always thinking of society has changed significantly the way we.

A

Function as a society has changed and interests, or maybe very different, now, certainly true yeah, so.

A

Are there any other questions or things that we want to address right now.

A

um Before we, we will get into this discussion in detail at our next meeting. We will start with.

A

um If it's okay with everyone, I thought we would start with uh um the charter language so that.

A

We're very familiar with the charter language, which we won't be changing and then dive in to.

A

The first ordinance 1801, which is the conflict of interest section in the ethics ordinance.

A

um I think it's very important that we just have a very good understanding of the charter.

A

Language because it directly impacts the other, even if there is no recommendation to change.

A

The charter, language and- and there might be- I don't want to pre-judge that if, if we.

A

Come forward with a recommendation to change the charter language, that's probably a long process.

A

Just so, everyone knows at home we're probably a little late to start that process to get it.

A

On the ballot this year, and it would require a special election or waiting two years for that.

A

Change to occur my recollection from other charter amendment endeavors has been that if.

C

The city council is able to make its decision on chartered amendments by say august and there's.

C

Still time to get charter amendment questions on the ballot in november, but for the council.

C

To get to these, it means you have to go through your whole process and make your recommendations.

C

Enough time to give the full council a chance to think about this and make a decision by august.

C

So it's you know, it goes fast. So as we're discussing it, we should keep that in mind.

A

um But um review the the charter section first and then come to our ordinances section and we.

A

Can always go back to the charter if we find in working on the ordinances that there's something.

A

That comes up that we feel like absolutely should be addressed that wasn't addressed in the charter.

A

Language then we can always come back to it, but I just want everyone to know that there is kind.

A

Of that one has a clearer deadline, timeline on it um and then we'll proceed through the other.

A

Ordinances as well so does that make sense to you, counselor tabor, to approach.

A

It that way, oh absolutely, because I think that the charter amendment c.

B

Instructs the city on behalf of what people voted for, to establish a conflict of interest, ordinance.

B

Including all the boards and commissions what it contains.

A

So that's where we'll start at our next meeting.

A

With if there are no other questions with that, I want to open public comment.

A

Is there anyone who would like to speak if you're on zoom raise your hand if you want to speak.

D

F

Peter huda, 280 south street, so um I want to bring my background to you. I'm going to put.

F

My accounting hat on and um throughout your training as an accountant, you have to take.

F

Numerous ethics, and uh even in the cpa, one of the sections of the cpa exam is about ethics.

F

So I think in listening to the discussion here, um the one thing that has not been discussed.

F

And for me it's been an easy thing to analyze and say: oh, this is a conflict. Is the ability.

F

To influence an outcome for either for yourself or for whoever you work for or.

F

um For the city, I think that part applies to your boards, where someone should recuse themselves if.

F

They have the ability to influence an outcome for either it be for themselves that they have. They.

F

Own property, or for close friends like the example that that bob and suzanne gave so um that's part.

F

Of the question that I ask myself and I think it would help everybody if you you asked yourself.

F

Well, do I have the ability to influence something here that would benefit me as in prescott park,.

F

um There's the it would benefit me in in whatever other position, I'm in and then the other side of.

F

It is, it would benefit me financially. So in accounting, um it's just a big no-no. I mean I.

F

Have worked for companies where um we we went out and selected banks and the bank wanted to.

F

Give you a t-shirt, and I had supervisors that wouldn't even take that you have to be really.

F

Careful there, the other thing um on the financial side. I think you need to understand.

F

The difference- and this is coming from an accounting perspective of.

F

um Are you going when, when you take something, whether it be a gift or a meal or anything.

F

um That has that could be a sign of financial amount. um At what point do you consider? Would.

F

That be considered a bribe. There's there's two things there from an accounting perspective. It's.

F

um You need to be very careful um that you don't cross that line and then the other side of that.

F

Is- and this is a personal thing, but if you keep going on that at what point in time, do you need.

F

To report that on your taxes, because that is income, so um that's pulling back from from.

F

um Accounting stuff, but I think the the big thing here that that wasn't discussed was the.

F

Ability to influence an outcome where there would be financial or to benefit your company.

F

Or your friend or your or your organization, and that that's, I think, that's a big consideration.

F

And um hopefully you'll look into that and maybe that's an easy way for anybody to to look at that.

F

um The other discussion about going deep into people's financial.

F

um Records or whatever you want to say um this would to me in my mind this would apply to.

F

That what what would be the benefit to doing that I mean, would it change the outcome? No.

F

But if somebody did like was said, if somebody did have a have a interest in a bank or a.

F

Developer or whatever, whatever it may be, or a close relationship where they could influence.

F

The outcome of a decision that was going to be made later, you might personally consider that.

F

um I don't, I know um that most of the people that do run for council don't have that background.

F

And I think that might be a easy way to look at that. I hope that helps. Thank you.

D

Thank you. um Is there anyone else that wants to speak.

A

Okay, if there's no one else that I'm going to go ahead and close public comment.

A

The last thing on our agenda today is announcements. um uh We are just I'm announcing.

A

What we are covering um for the next few weeks, um the next meeting is april, the 10th, and we.

A

Will talk about conflict of interest? We also will have a discussion on some committees that might.

A

Want to convert from being blue ribbon committees to being standing committees. I know there's some.

A

Committees that are currently having discussions around that and we will revisit the administrative.

A

Ordinance question on committee language cleanup: I will also provide that parks update, hopefully I'll.

A

Have that update by april the 10th to provide to the committee um then on april 24th we will.

A

Continue a few of those discussions, at least that's anticipated that this is going to take some.

A

Time to address, I should also note that I will be inviting um guest guest to come in and speak.

A

To the committee as um as needed to provide us advice, additional advice on conflict of interest.

A

And how it's addressed elsewhere, so um with that said um there are there any other announcements or.

A

All right, then, can I get a motion tutor. I will second that I guess all in favor aye, um weird.