City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Historic District Commission, 2 Mar 2022

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3.2.2022 Historic District Commission

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Welcome to the march 2nd meeting of the historic district commission.

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uh The board's actions in these matters have been deemed to be quasi, recording in progress in nature.

C

Well, that's nice! If any person believes any member of the board has a conflict of interest. That issue.

C

Should be raised at this point or it will be deemed waived, so we have a little something going.

C

On with our approval of minutes, that's going to save us at least 30 seconds or a minute nick has.

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Decided that we should move these approval of these minutes off till one week just next week.

A

I want to review them first next week. Okay, so uh somebody would make that motion. I move that we.

D

Move the approval of the minutes from last month to next week's meeting.

C

All right, all those in favor aye, aye aye, all those against. um We only seem to have one administrative.

C

Approval that is, and I believe that martin might have to recuse. I do have to replace myself myself.

C

So, with a little bit of humor, nick okay I'll try not to butcher it, martin.

E

No, I don't need to go. uh 239 north west street recently approved, and I think we've done one.

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Administrative approval related to this project. Already it's under construction.

E

What the applicant is seeking to add is an exterior light beside the.

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Front exterior door and replace two fixed windows uh on the side of the door. I believe.

E

With um siding, so I had a light and which is specified and was in the original application.

E

And it's shown on the second sheet, sorry I'll scroll down for people that are watching.

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Get it the right size, maybe.

E

This is the house: here's the proposed light on the second detail sheet, so.

E

It's pretty straightforward to my eyes any any questions for me or the applicant.

C

Okay, so um if somebody like to make a motion nobody's got any questions.

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Motion to approve is presented a second okay, all those in which alternate is.

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uh All those in favor aye fighting against okay, so we're moving right along to public hearing.

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New business petition of theodore m styles and joan boyd owners for property located at 28 south.

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Street wherein permission is requested to allow new construction to an existing structure. Add two.

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Rear editions, as per plans on file in the planning department, said, property is shown.

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On assessor map, 102 slot 43 lies within the general residence b and historic districts.

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We're here to present this and hi good evening, ann whitney.

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Architect for the project, all right, yes, we are proposing two small additions at the rear.

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I just included the site plan from the zoning just to give you a sense of the.

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Location, it's at the rear of the structure. There's a really nice garden in the back.

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Backyard, so on that a addition, if you go to the two of three.

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There's a floor plan and some photos.

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Basically, we're adding some space to sort of the eat-in kitchen space um and.

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Actually, this sheet mainly shows some context photos and has the window schedule um the only.

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Other the only place you can see this is from marcy street um the manfrotto property. Looking.

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Over the fence, so that's the only sort of view of this back of the structure. The third page.

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Shows some elevations um that a addition which is in the upper left.

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You can see the existing two-story structure is fairly plain on that side, and this will be bumping.

G

Out four feet currently on that back elevation. Those three wind existing windows are nine over.

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Sixes but all the other windows in the house are six over six and they were all replaced before.

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My clients had purchased the property, so what I'm proposing to do, which is a little.

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Unusual on that bay is to change those windows to a six over one cottage style.

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Similar pane size to the existing windows above.

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Just to be able to have that space be more open to the garden, and since it can't really be seen.

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Straight on from anywhere and then there's an existing kitchen window, that would also.

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Get swapped out so the windows on that elevation would be matching.

G

If you go to the right, um the one story addition on the where the house that creates an l is.

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We're mainly creating a better access to the rear yard, but right now this.

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The old part of the house on the behind this one story addition there's a there's: a beautiful.

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Dining room with a fireplace and lots of built-ins, but in order to get from the kitchen to that.

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Dining room: you have to walk all the way around the house, so this addition here is.

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Allowing for a small pantry area and a direct access from the kitchen to this dining room.

G

Got a 15 light door and the side elevation um has a small. It has a nine light. Awning window, there's.

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An existing uh window that actually it's didn't get replaced. It's one of the older older windows.

G

I think you can see it if you go back to two of three on that. There's a couple photos of that.

G

When the kitchen was redone, it's it's really just covered over and I'd like to.

G

Remove that existing window, and then you know because it's so close to the edition.

G

It's not having any function on the interior of the house.

G

The only other um on this three of three that you can see on the bay going to four over ones.

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Same same orientation on the side windows of the bay.

G

We're probably just going to be putting this on posts um and we'll be doing vertical board.

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Skirting, there's no plumbing that's going to be happening in the space.

G

So we're going to be matching materials, roof, trim, details, siding and we'll be.

G

Putting some vertical board skirting around these additions to connect them to the ground.

G

We're proposing to use the.

G

Actually, I think we are using the sometimes you do this three weeks ago and the marvin signature.

G

You know how, when the windows were replaced in the house before the clients bought.

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It they use the marvin aluminum clad and we're going to be using those same windows.

G

um Are there any questions? Yes, do you have any questions, anybody.

C

Warmer on this side, I don't no, no, no, no questions at all. Nothing about trim, moldings.

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Faces corner boards, nothing, it's not my area, it's not your area.

C

Over here margo, I just wanted to ask what material you'll be using for the vertical skirting.

H

Excuse me, the skirting: the material for the vertical skirting yeah it'll be painted.

G

And it'll probably be a life span, which is you know, it's a wood product, but it's treated primed.

G

It doesn't move around as much as the azac and it's nicer to work with, but it's rot resistant.

D

I guess I have a question it's kind of nitpicky, um but I guess I was just wondering why.

D

Why bother replacing that one window? That's a nine over six with the new.

D

The bigger the it just, I thought you know we don't really have to do that.

G

But I just they felt that um to get a little more view out into the backyard from the kitchen and.

G

That it felt like it balanced that elevation yeah yep, I mean it's not really a deal breaker for me.

D

But it's it's one of those things where it's like. Well, this type of window, in my mind, makes sense on.

D

This edition bay window, because it's a new edition right um but that's sort of original or at least.

D

An existing it was an additional window, opening yeah. There was an edition done a long time ago.

G

And the other, um it's the same size as the other windows in the house that are all six over six.

D

Oh, they just crammed in and I never over six for them, yeah yeah, all right. That's weird! Really! Okay,.

G

You can see that one existing window, I'm showing on that rear elevation.

G

You know that your typical window size for the first floor and you can see when you.

G

Go to a basically a nine, a nine over six, then you're. You know breaking that pane size of down.

C

um Anyone else over there uh karen and I would uh say that you're voting on this okay tonight do you.

A

Want to ask some questions, I really don't have any questions on it. It seems pretty straightforward.

A

Okay, david, I'm assuming that she's going to match the trim in profile and dimension.

I

For the various features that are going on yeah and it's pretty simply trimmed house to begin.

G

With and it seems like a pretty simple what we think of as a somewhat modern addition on.

I

The back of the building right that this is all to clutter up around yeah, so we'll make that a.

C

Stipulation and actually the the first floor, the windows will have um the band mold, which is.

G

Typical of the existing you know, windows that were so it's going to have. You know a heavier sill and.

G

You know trim with a band mold which is shown on the drawings. Okay, get that yeah yeah. I and yes,.

A

Yep just a question I mean uh you're, leaving the uh vent louver and for the attic is that correct.

A

Oh yeah, I just didn't. um I didn't note that yeah I missed noting that yep. Thank you.

C

Well, um I'll open this up to members of the public. If anybody would like to speak for this edition.

C

Apparently, there's nobody out there. Is there anybody just waiting to get online.

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Raise your hand if you'd like to speak to any item as of yet there isn't.

E

Anybody raising their hand, okay, so I'm going to close this uh public hearing and we could.

C

Have a motion, any discussion if you want, but uh somebody like to take it. Mr.

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Chairman I'd like to move that we approve this application with the stipulation that the.

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Trim and uh sighting features of the building match the existing that they're going against.

I

All right, um just as a point I I do understand that there's a it seems kind of.

I

Kind of odd to see one window that is not affected being changed to make it look more.

I

Like the thing that's being added on, usually we think of it going the other direction, but.

I

I'm not offended by that little bit of whimsy on the back of this addition to a primary house.

A

Okay, second, okay, oh second, all right screen! Oh it probably isn't, but it doesn't. I don't.

D

Even see an opening yeah should we stipulate half screen and just in case I don't know.

D

Yeah I mean it's there. They don't open.

G

It's a little more complicated right. It's very complicated because they're not split evenly.

C

Okay, the center window right yeah, okay,.

A

Okay, all righty, um so I guess it's um time for a vote. uh All those in favor say.

C

Aye all right and against, and the chair votes I high david. Would you like to mention a few.

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I think that it's compatible with the surrounding architecture and uh makes a.

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Nice fit in with this neighborhood, very good, all righty moving along. Thank you.

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Petition of mill pond view llc owner for property located at 179, pleasant street.

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Wherein permission is requested to allow changes to a previously approved design changes to the.

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Sun room and roof design as per plans on file in the planning department, said. Property is shown on.

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Assessor map 108, it's lot 15 and lies within the mixed research office and the historic districts.

C

Who's here to make this presentation good evening, carla goodnight from cj architects, uh as well as.

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Jake wieder from cj, architects and david calkins, general contractor and owner's representative.

J

um I'd like to start with a brief overview of where.

J

Of the process that we have undertaken to evaluate this property and these structures and.

J

I can start with our letter. Our our agenda, which includes the uh dave, has written a very specific.

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Exterior renovation, scope of work document, we have included a brick and mortar analysis.

J

Of the similar property at 205 market street for any masonry work that would need to be done.

J

As well as masonry sealant, we've developed a timeline, a annex scope of work proposed.

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Design and restoration, as well as existing and proposed details, materials and reference.

J

The property timeline illustrates multiple modifications to the historic structures over time.

J

We've had a couple of sidewalks with the board. We have brought in many historic consultants.

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Who are all listed here to share their opinions and findings and recommendations.

J

And most recently actually tim berry has walked through and given us some options on the paint.

J

Removal and paint handling of the paint and some of the areas that we have been told.

J

Are worth preservation, or you know, will have valuable uh as historic elements.

J

um Dave has done some additional exploratory work with structural.

J

And has some comments he'd like to share on the timeline and then we'll move on.

K

First, I think tim would be upset with me. If I didn't say we explored the coatings process.

K

Removing the coating and new application coating not pain, you know so um just a very interesting.

K

Tidbit uh 1784, we know it was. uh The house was constructed speaking in round term, so 1780 the.

K

House is built, we were under the impression 1859 mark wentworth purchased. The house at which point.

K

It probably underwent the sizeable renovation to include the annex. The windows stylistic change.

K

In doing some more exploratory work we found under or in the walls and under some of the flooring.

K

Newspapers dating 1888 1889, all in the double parlor as we're exploring that north side wall.

K

So now I'm starting to think that actually 1888 1889 is when.

K

The transformation occurred so again in round numbers 1780. The house is constructed 1890.

K

Undergoes a massive transformation stylistically and in addition hundred years and then seemingly.

K

The house is not touched again until 1980, where the third floor, the annex.

K

Third floor is all converted into living space, and so it almost another 100 years go by, and then this.

K

Thing sees another massive importing of work and at each level it's almost like the quality of work.

K

Comes down a little bit, and here we are now 40 years later from the 1980 mark, trying to.

K

uh You know piece all this together and make the uh the house right again. So just a tidbit.

K

As we continue our process here, thank you I did ask dave is saving the newspaper he found so.

J

In the 2.0 series, uh we're very carefully mapping out uh the plans for the annex.

J

2.0 series illustrates the selective demolition shown in blue and green.

J

As reviews as reviewed on site and preservation,.

J

And restoration elements in the pink and the orange, which includes trim, shutters moldings.

J

For preservation and restoration and dave can explain in detail how he's planning to handle that.

J

As well as I believe, window woman is our selection for rebuilding all of the uh original windows that.

J

Are still remaining in the nx and anything else would be replaced in kind with the.

J

Barbing windows in wood, the wood marvins as specked in the materials moving on to 2.1.

J

There is a dormer in the existing mansion shown in the uh in the snapshot.

J

At the top, which will be rebuilt extensively damaged from the attachment of the annex and.

J

That is included in the structural evaluation. The angled bay is really non-contributing.

J

As a historic element, I think everyone on the sitewalk agreed on that, so that will be removed.

J

And the original trim, molding shutters and windows will be removed, restored.

J

And reinstalled uh moving on to 2.2 um this single story radial. Can I just make a quick comment.

D

Going back to 2.0 before that, there's only one existing dormer.

D

On on 2.0, so the south side of the 2.0.

J

I'm sorry yes yeah just just to clarify for your drawings. We've struggled a little bit.

J

On that with the um previously approved, because it's technically an amendment so.

J

It's approved, but so it's there, but it's not there right right! Sorry, thank you for that.

C

Okay, uh you also didn't mention the.

C

Bay window and all that stuff, I know that you have, but is it yes on.

J

2.1 the bay window on the bottom are you speaking of the one on the east elevation on 2.1 yeah.

J

Yeah, yes, okay, so that will be demolished as non contributing element. So.

J

Moving on, then, I'm not sure where I left off, but the single story.

J

Radial three-season porch structure was added over a patio in 1982.. The construction is very poor.

J

Vapor barriers are needed under the slab and masonry knee wall. Everything about it is new.

J

Windows are new, failing and the annex the annex itself, as uh shown in the structural evaluation.

J

Is constructed on an unstable foundation and some portions of it are constructed directly on dirt.

J

The annex was added, as dave mentioned sometime during the 1800s and its.

J

Roof line, which is this, is significant. Besides the foundation issues and the.

J

Placement directly on the soil, uh the roof line of the annex, as seen in this window, close up on 2.2.

J

It appears there are two lights in the bottom sash and one light in the top sash. What you're actually.

J

Seeing there is half of the upper sash, because the roof line of the annex was built to bisect the.

J

Historic window at the grand central stair midway through the top, so the also during.

J

The installation of the nx2 of the primary roof timbers were compromised during construction and.

J

In the 1980s, the majority of the original interior of the annex was demolished to create an apartment.

J

So it was kind of a 1980s apartment in there as as of uh time of purchase, so.

J

Several areas of siding on the exterior and some of the trim is also new.

J

And therefore, the approach is to remove, restore and preserve all remaining exterior.

J

Historic elements and reinstall them and these historic elements have been determined by the list.

J

Of people on the page, the page one and reinstall them on new, framing siding and roofing constructed.

J

At an appropriate height above the historic window, sash to free up that window.

J

And uh uh restore that that element, any questions uh dave is gonna. Take a minute. I'm sorry excuse me.

A

I'm sorry, no, that's. Okay. Do you have a question? Any questions is going to talk about the chimney.

J

um I would just like to uh say that I find the the window that is obstructed. The pains are of a.

C

uh Unusual size, um I'm wondering if any research could be done on that that possibly the window.

C

Could have been a nine over nine or something similar to that, because.

C

Myself and uh I have never seen um that proportion in window pane sizes.

C

um I would ask david if he has seen that either out of my pay scale sorry get a raise. Yes,.

J

The plan is to turn with that sash and window over to window woman, and it just.

C

Seems that that would be a grand uh window in that location and.

C

I don't know the proportions are on. It would be pretty grand for that time period, though those.

D

Proportions well, there was similar buildings at this time that had arched windows or that.

I

Classic palladium flanked arch window, that was a theme that was used over and again.

I

I would say I mean that if there was a place for a unique window which wasn't all that common, a thing.

I

At this time, but if there was a place for a unique window, that certainly would be the place.

I

But it truly, I I just though I guess part of it.

I

Is is, is this there are so many ways one can be unique.

I

That I've never been able to categorize it from the limited things that I've seen. Okay, um that.

C

Was just my comment and I think it's a good one, but you know it just doesn't fit the golden rule.

J

All right I'll turn it over to dave and he can give you uh his uh conversation summary with.

J

Masonry um just to the window real quick through conversations opinions, I was told that a nine.

K

Over nine is consistent with some of the georgian style architecture, where most of the house is six.

K

Over six, so that could have been a nine over nine consistent with the rest and then also I was told.

K

For a way to show uh opulence or that you had the money.

K

Would be the size of the pain of the glass in that time, not necessarily the light cut.

K

Per se, but the size of the glass again, all an education, I'm getting as we go through here.

K

The chimney and the annex we've approached this just how we have approached everything.

K

With this project, as far as looking at it from different angles, so uh I just want to refer to.

K

It's sheet sk1 on the structural. If that's that's a possibility, it's like 40 pages ahead. It would be.

C

Easier, all right, it would be easier if we let her go because nick has to catch up and then he's got.

C

To get back yeah all right, so we'll look at it nick later. It's it's fine, we'll reference! It now.

K

um So the chimney, as some of you have saw, uh I believe it's an earthen chimney. It comes down.

K

There is no proper foundation underneath this thing: it's a rubber, a rubble uh dirt mass. That's.

K

Underneath the chimney it's in the annex, so we looked at in proposing to take the building down.

K

Can we support the chimney shore? Would the chimney survive an excavation process to.

K

Be able to put in a proper foundation for the new annex more than likely not.

K

The the foundation for the chimney isn't there and there's no way safely. I could do that and ensure.

K

That a the chimney would stand and everyone would be safe on the job site. So then we looked at is.

K

There a way to preserve the section above the roof line which you'll see further in the notes I met.

K

With quite a few people- and we thought we had a promising um option, which was to fill the chimney.

K

With either like an open cell foam that doesn't expand as much or um I believe they call it.

K

Not fluid fill fill film uh like they would use inside of a masonry foundation and cap. It and.

K

Then and crate the chimney, lift it off. So we're pretty confident that we could get that section.

K

Off, however, the mason is not confident on reattaching that thing and having it.

K

Safe when we reattach it to the new building. So after looking at sort of the evolution of how we.

K

Could do this we've come to the conclusion that the the safest best way to proceed is that we.

K

Would take the chimney down replace in kind? I just wanted you to know how we arrived at that decision.

C

Okay, carla all right, continuing on um dave, don't go too far. Two three 3.0 uh elevation by elevation.

J

Dave has prepared his plan for uh for what the work that needs to be done, um and I mean it's.

J

More of a restor restorative water sealing, uh you know, reconstructing kind of uh repair.

J

Explanation so I had him just highlight uh some of the items that he plans on doing and and the I.

J

Don't want to read the lengthy report, obviously, but the elevations have keys and the keys are.

J

Tied to the photograph, so you can see the details as they are and then dave also has in his report a.

J

Some photographs of how he plans to restore the column bases with the custom elements so dave do.

J

You want to just highlight the front elevation and or west elevation. Yep we've gone through.

K

This so I'll focus on more of the uh disruptive components. The the front of the mansion really.

K

Is a restorative effort where siding trim, everything will be scraped. Sanded repainted.

K

The column bases we're proposing, I believe, it's an ionic sort of style to match the capital so.

K

Those will be pvc bases because they do contact the granite slab. I would prefer that anyways.

K

Really, on the north side, as proposed I'd like to take up 18 inches of siding from the bottom, so.

K

We could expose the sill beam and address water issues that we know are there. Aside from that.

K

Windows are all going to be restored, siding and trim will be restored or preserved and painted.

K

That's really good: okay,.

J

One thing that dave did note is this upper right hand corner and I uh in image two you.

J

Can see that the dental moldings along the right side of the photograph are very crisp.

J

And new and clean and the ones on the left side are more original and uh we believe that to be.

J

uh Possibly from the tree that fell that some of those things were replaced, it looks.

J

Like a pretty good job, but I think they've been replaced in that area.

J

3.1 uh again, you can see a little bit there same thing in in the photograph two, but go ahead. Dave.

K

Yeah so on the the west or the front of the house and then the driveway side, the south elevation, the.

K

Cornice there has definitely been either replaced or restored. Someone did a nice job and really.

K

Only left the north side of the house facing the langdon and then the back side of the house facing.

K

The back of the lot, so we intend to sort of employ that same theory all the way around and just.

K

Preserve all of the cornice as much siding as much trim as possible. We've only shown you a few photos.

K

Of what we've catalogued, but we've cataloged, all the dimensions, so we know sills. We know.

K

Back bands, we know casing on this elevation again we're looking to remove 18 inches on the mansion.

K

Siding to just expose that sill uh this side and the north side facing the langdon have the.

K

Basement windows which we're proposing to replace with marvin, we'll speak to a little bit later and.

K

Then again, all trim and siding will be restored, preserved as best as possible as we go through it.

J

And then this bay is going to get the flat seam, copper yep. The bay will get a flat seam, copper.

K

Roof and again, the trim and everything windows will receive the same treatment as everything else.

J

And on 3.2 is a detailed trim section through the new proposed round room design.

J

This windows have been scheduled in marvin, clad we're looking at using the clad doors as well.

J

And we're doing a standing, seam, copper roof at that in that location. All of this.

J

New foundation work will have the granite stone veneer to match the existing as closely as.

J

Possible there is a prior veneer approved on the previous application, so we're not.

J

Amending that we're just using the previously approved material for foundation, uh treatment.

J

The existing dormer on the mansion will be relocated, three feet to the right.

J

Up against the rafter, which I think we looked at while we were up in that attic area, there's.

J

The timber and that's as far as we can go to abut the timber and that works that works.

J

Really fine for getting that um overhang up over the window. You can see below there.

J

um So and um dave is there anything in particular that you wanted to add to this elevation.

J

Same same basic approach,.

J

Moving on to 3.3, this is again the mansion side.

J

And we are adding the marvin clad windows in the uh area, ways because of moisture and the issues.

J

That have that we've had there, this structural report and a lot of our photos that we'll get to.

J

Later show significant, rot and decay in the um mansion framing, which will be repaired and and.

J

There's a structural approach that dave can speak to for that.

J

um On this side, wall there's a significant bow that needs to be addressed as well dave, correct.

J

Yes, try this chimney, we've done some more investigative work and this doesn't change.

K

Our our scope or our process, but just to we, we now know what's happening on this north wall.

K

um I don't know why I couldn't figure out earlier, but in the double parlor. On the first floor it has.

K

If you were there, it has window wells that go into each window. Well, that constitutes an exterior wall.

K

And then an interior wall and that's what frames out the window well or a 14 inch deep wall well.

K

As we opened up sections of that interior wall, the exterior wall has been getting water for I don't.

K

Know how many years, but you haven't been able to see it because there's another interior wall that.

K

Doesn't allow you to see any of that it's been hitting the sill beam and then going back out.

K

So what's happened is we've actually had members give way behind this chimney and the way the roof.

K

Is framed, we have a king post coming down that supports the ridge for that hip and those two.

K

Hip rafters are pushing down on the king post, which is part of. What's let go on the back wall.

K

So now that floor system is pushing out the box bay or the box beam on the first floor, so.

K

Does not change our approach? Some of this it's just going to have to stay.

K

But I would still like to remove the siding and and get a flat get this thing flashed and put.

K

Back together, the way it should be again replacing siding and kind trim would stay.

K

And handle this side with kid gloves as best as possible. Okay,.

J

It's been a journey.

J

So looking at 4.0, uh we've done exhaustive analysis on the cornice dimensions so that we can.

J

Make these two elements meet uh harmoniously on the inside corners as they will need to.

J

Dave has taken these exhaustive measurements up on the ladder.

J

Because I'm not going up there and the photograph on the right here.

J

Indicates the the profiles that are depicted- and here we have a k-style gutter, which we thought.

J

We're still using copper, but we believe that the k-style gutters are a better match to the profiles.

J

And the intent of of what's happening here so obviously, water management is a huge.

J

Huge part of our task at hand here, so this is the existing cornice on the mansion.

J

Looking at the existing cornice on the annex again detailed measurements drafted up and.

J

Then a photograph depicting you can see some of these trim boards directly behind the gutter and.

J

Most likely been put on to augment gutter installation and so forth.

J

So one of the things that surprised me was the height of. If you look on 4.2.

J

The mansion eve has a pretty high rise on it, uh to begin with, which I found um a little bit.

J

Surprising um the addition of the uh one inch rigid insulation doesn't even really seem to.

J

In in this, using this method doesn't seem to make much of a of an impact on the eave height.

J

So what we've done is put the two analyze. The two pieces put them together.

J

Modeled them and drew lines across so that there is a somewhat of a seamless.

J

Meeting of the two they're very different they're supposed to be different.

J

But I think they the they can line up with and share some lines in this way.

J

So the trim on the inside corner, I think, helps that. So that's our our approach for the two.

J

Cornices intersecting, clearly the dentals on the mansion are superior and uh to the to the smaller.

J

Trim which exists on the annex, so the annex has a more subordinate profile, although the dentals are.

J

Large but the profile itself, I think overall carla. Could I ask you a question sure yeah.

C

I'm wondering if the if uh anybody has thought that possibly the rafter tails on the annex have.

C

Been cut off, um I mean I'm looking at gosh, you've got, you know two and three quarters.

C

Four inches for the k style, underneath there is four and three eighths and then you have another.

C

Two and three eighths, so you've got 12 inches of of a plum cut.

C

Which indicates to me that that one time maybe there was rot there, possibly they shortened.

C

Because it's, I think, it's quite awkward and um the gutters help the well the governor's help. But then.

C

They don't help in the fact that they present that flat, you know dimension underneath them.

A

I I would almost like to see in one in one of your drawings on, I think it's 4-0 you've got some kind.

C

Of molding, underneath there is style, you're right on the mansion eve on 4.2. If you look to the left.

J

The mansion eve does have an applied piece of trim which could be carried all the way around.

C

Take some of the sting I agree with that gutter. I agree. We could stipulate that yeah.

C

So that was just my comment. It just seems like a an awful um lot of facial. There.

A

I'm just not used to it yeah. I was surprised it wasn't more noticeable.

J

From the ground, moving on to 5.0, we have created some 3d images showing the final restored intent.

J

And 5.1 again the image showing the round room and the restored sidewall and the.

J

Annex construction within the current footprint, with the exception of a small kitchen extension.

J

Again, 5.2 the final result with the reinstalled trim and windows.

J

Restored windows and 5.3 the north elevation, looking much as it does in the picture on the left.

J

um On 6.0 uh dave has brought some samples of the roofing for you to for us to just pass along.

J

And we are proposing all the slate as we discussed in our work sessions, which I.

J

Haven't mentioned yet the roof will need to be removed so that it can be. um Insulation can be.

J

Installed and all the structural work below can be done, based on the things that dave has been.

J

Talking about so, the desire is to reinstall the bravo roofing material. You want me to pass around.

K

Up here, where would you like it good question? Yeah pass it around unless it's really heavy, you want.

J

To explain first dave I'll, explain: yeah we looked at a lot of different companies. We landed on. Bravo.

K

For several reasons, one is it's a pressure mold versus an injection mold. What does that mean.

K

uh Partially means that the color goes all the way through the product, so if it were to be cut, we're.

K

Not looking at a virgin pvc or recycled plastic second is allows them to have several molds so.

K

There are different profiles, so it's not just a stamped product that you get the same profile on.

K

Everything so they are slightly different third, is they have solid back tiles and open web tiles? This.

K

Allows it to go over a non-vented roof, which is what we will have or a hot roof, because there is.

K

No way to vent this roof so it allows this allows to go over a non-vented roof, but the solid tiles.

K

Allow you to have a real looking shingle along your rake edges, your cut valleys for copper, you're.

K

Not seeing open webs you're not applying a piece of trim, so that's what we landed on uh the color.

K

Is going to be the white arendelle, I brought three just to show you that there's different profiles.

D

Oh you need to um if you're talking, you need to make sure that you talk into this.

C

Outside no disc jockey, uh imitation.

K

um I also have a piece of the original slate 12 inch.

K

Slate that came off of the house, it is thank you.

J

For color color match.

J

So the on 6.0, we have an example of the flat seam copper. That's proposed for.

J

The bay areas and some of the original, smaller roofs on the mansion, the standing, seam, copper.

J

Would be implemented on the round area only and on the little kitchen extension area, skylights.

J

Are merely to replace existing skylights that are already installed, we're not proposing any new ones.

J

And again, the k-style gutter and round copper downspouts is the preference of the um of the.

J

Owners um and for just the way that it the style and we would entertain the idea of bringing.

J

The mansion um molding piece around the entire heave line.

J

Dave also has well I'll go through these materials and then I'll have dave talk to.

J

You about the shutters and the screens, the marvin, clad ultimate door again would only be used on.

J

The round area and uh the brick that we would use on the chimney is the the morin water struck. So I.

C

Have a question carl: I hate you know we're looking at roofing and maybe you shouldn't advance on okay.

C

um What about the exposure on this thing? This is a huge exposure and we just compared the.

C

The old marks on the old slate and they're at least two inches less than.

C

This roughness, which I assume is the exposure mark, um is there, is there another. Bravo.

C

That doesn't have a 12 inch exposure or whatever, whatever this is, they actually make it.

K

Longer for different exposures, but there is a recommended overlap, so you do have the ability.

K

To adjust the overlap or the exposure on that tile, no, you can so you can actually go down.

C

Below where the uh rough edge is so to speak, correct and there is a minimum tolerance. I.

K

Don't want to quote it, uh but it's there is uh the ability to adjust the exposure and part of that.

K

Was done for reason of different pitches coming in and having the caps.

K

But there is a tolerance for what your exposure, what they have for exposure on that, and it is.

K

A screwed down product too, as well. It goes in those little circles. I take it correct.

K

And actually I I believe it's four with four screws. You meet the next wind load, which is.

K

Miami game proof, yeah, yeah,.

J

All right, so I'm sorry too, you know. Do you want me to go back um yeah? What were you on.

C

The standing seam I was just right. Yes, I was on standing seam and flat seam, so.

C

I mean we pretty well understand that I think okay is that a one-inch standing, seam.

J

uh Yes, yes, it's custom, but I'll make a note of that. That's usually what I spec the first bends.

I

Inch and a half second bench inch and a quarter and then you're at one. Okay, that's if you're.

I

Doing custom, that's, I would think how you do it: okay, yeah all right! There's lots of that around.

J

um And again, as I said, k-style gutter, we would offer to extend that trim around.

J

That's currently present on the mansion, um and then the skylights are only for the purpose of.

J

Replacing existing skylights that are there, and I think that covers the materials on 6-0 on six one.

J

We've called out the mooring water struck, brick, which would be used in the chim any chimney work.

J

The marvin ultimate, clad ultimate, is only for use in the new round room construction. Nowhere.

J

On the historic building or the um or the annex,.

J

And then uh the beach river mill is going to be matching existing shutters that are not.

J

uh Salvageable and I guess dave did you want to add anything and then you don't.

K

And yeah the screen I'll talk very quickly. Water struck, brick is pretty much a staple.

K

In restoration work, it's also a kind of unique to new england. If you will beach river they've.

K

Been in business for over 150 years, they've done a few projects for us they're great. They have a.

K

Victorian error workshop. That's been modernized, but it's a really cool facility.

K

They do outstanding work. We ended up on marvin because, although their product in the custom.

K

Storm doesn't necessarily fit an eastern style or eastern case window. It's more narrow than.

K

Anything else we found outside of just straight up custom, making it ourselves and it works well.

K

With the thicker uh window trim that we have so that's why we ended up with the marvin custom.

K

Storms, that's all right, a question about your choice of the mauren brick. Have you cleaned off.

H

Enough of the mansion chimneys to feel that these are going to go well or do you feel.

H

That, because it's the addition chimney, it doesn't have to match or resemble the mansion chimney.

K

uh The no we haven't cleaned off any of the uh chimneys uh on the mansion.

K

um In the limited experience that I have, we've used the water struck like over on market street.

K

That's an 1820s building and that meshed well color wise, um but I I would be certainly open.

K

To a stipulation, as once, we clean off the brick to make sure color wise that we're you know we're.

K

Being appropriate, our intent is to water seal the brick once it's done with the salt guard.

K

So we clearly do not want patchwork on this thing and it needs to look seamless seamless. Thank you.

C

Can I ask you david, what is the material of those beech river shutters um they primed pine or no.

K

uh For right now, we're discussing spanish cedar. To be honest, it's going to be a painted product.

K

But that's really what they do most of their their shutters. Out of so it would be a cedar ability.

K

Well, yeah stability, it doesn't, uh you know, doesn't um expand and contract as much even.

K

Though it's a painted product, there's nothing more disappointing than I have used, brosco.

C

Pine shutters to come climb and then look at them. Eight years later, seven years later,.

C

And see the rot, especially on the bottom style, and you know basically have to take.

C

The shutters apart to fix them, it's just that's why I was interested in material.

J

All right, we could uh submit an admin, uh color match approval, it could be a.

J

Stipulation then, we submit the mourn admin as a color match. Once we have a cleaned off.

J

Good, you know representation of what's there um that could be subject to adding.

J

An approval once we can actually assess what it is. That's fine, okay, hold on.

J

All right, um moving on to 6.2 the double hung, marvin wood ultimate would be used anywhere.

J

That we have indicated that there is a vinyl window currently installed, for instance, in.

J

The dormer of the mansion house or any place there is not an original window to be restored.

J

And then again, we're going to plan on using the clad ultimates in both all the basement.

J

Applications for moisture in everywhere and uh the clad ultimates would just be in the round.

J

Room only and that's on the window schedule looking at 7-0 we're just trying to provide.

J

As many reference photos as possible just to kind of see all the elevations in one place and then.

J

If you look at 7.1, you can see uh the photo to the far right indicates the timbers that were modified.

J

And cut during the annex installation, you can see it's bearing on about a half inch. There.

J

And then the photos to the left start to give you an indication of what happened.

J

To the interior during the 1980s work in the attic of the mansion house,.

J

Moving on to 7.2 there's a summary of the moisture problems that dave has been uncovering.

J

Pretty regularly that have caused a great deal of rot and damage to the beams. I know we saw a lot.

J

Of that, on our walk throughs with the board and with many of our historians and our ultimate goal.

J

If dave is able to remove that lower siding and repair all of the rot behind there and then.

J

Restore or replace that as needed, we're planning on lowering this grade so that this doesn't.

J

Continue so we give the house a little breathing room. uh 7.3 um basically uh shows uh some of the.

J

Annex what was what has been done in the annex- and you, I believe, also saw this on the walkthrough.

J

And then 7.4 is just a corrective from the prior approval and then, if we go quickly through I'm.

J

Not going to go spend a whole bunch of time on this, but because I know you have other dave.

J

Has pretty much summarized his work scope during the presentation so we'll just skip through that.

J

And then I just want to highlight a couple of photos in the structural evaluation.

J

um So if you stop there right, there go back one back one. uh Looking at the.

J

Column bases actually are those further down further down far sorry nick I'm wrong.

J

That's the column base that needs to be restored, um we're going to utilize the one.

J

With the tape on it as a pattern, and if you keep going and dave's report, you can see the.

J

Pvc um that he's proposing, so I just keep kind of going almost- is it almost at the end dude.

A

103. like the last sheet, and can I confirm that um if you use pvc for that, it will be.

D

Sorry painted there it is in the field to paint it absolutely great, so the texture will match. Yes, yes,.

J

The unpainted is not a color, I want to see. Are you removing the bricks all around this? uh The mansion.

J

Yes, there's like a little walkway or something that's been, I'm wondering if.

C

That's part of the problem, I don't know how long that's been in there, but geez.

C

It almost looks like it's leaning backwards on on one of the pages yeah it has to that has to.

J

All be proper, drainage must be restored or we're just wasting our efforts here.

C

Sure somebody thought it was so if you look at page three of gorham structural report, which is.

J

After there's dave's faces, so this is structural. um If you keep uh right there, that is the.

J

The uncovering of the dirt that the wood that the annex is installed right on top.

J

Of and then there's a little area away, so you can see it's just sitting on the ground.

J

In that photo um and then uh I think that's about it. uh The structural report goes on to.

J

Sort of outline the foundation and and certain and other recommendations, but.

J

I'm not gonna, read this to you. You've got it in your package and you've all seen it.

J

And then we had a stephen mallory, the conservator has done a report who- and he has helped us.

J

Identify the areas on the annex that should be preserved and saved, and you know re-reinstalled so.

J

I think if anyone has any questions, anything I've missed or okay. I have one question. Certainly.

H

So, carlo, the when you take off the annex, the annex has another attachment to it, which is the.

H

Dog trot connector that goes out to the other. Yes, what are the plans to just stabilize that.

H

Keep it there and build right up against it that has actually been approved for demolition in the.

J

Original approval, the previous approval has approved that little dog leg area for demolition.

J

So what we're showing on these plans is the previously approved new construction that was.

J

Approved for that area, but that's that's very good dave head. um Ask me that very question.

J

Mr chairman, can I just jump into I think pertinent to this.

I

Is this seems like to me a new thing and just wondering.

I

How to wrap my head around it? It it the previous previously approved, but not enacted,.

I

Is which, which is it I mean? Do you understand what I'm getting at? I understand.

C

It is previously approved yeah, but not enacted, but it didn't get done well. It.

J

Is there is a permit, though, for time period it's there is all of our law. There is a year.

I

For the permit to do the thing, so I mean you have a permit, but it seems to make sense to me.

E

uh Like dave and I'm just the administrator here, but it makes sense to me yeah there's a building.

E

Permit but clearly the project is more than substantially changing with this application.

E

That it would make sense that it be spelled out very clearly what what you're assuming is.

E

Previously approved okay and what you're wanting to request. So everybody here doesn't have to ask.

E

Oh gee, what what's really happening here that you're not talking about.

E

Because it may be something that was approved with the previous approval. First of all had half the.

E

Members that are here not here, because it was two or three years ago too long, but the the totality.

E

Of the project has changed that it may not be any longer appropriate to initiate that portion of the.

E

Project that hasn't started. Well, yes, I agree I mean I agree with what you're saying and I do.

J

Understand that I guess one of the benefits that or the uh issues that the previous approval did.

J

Not wasn't available to them was some of this demolition that we've been able to do to uncover.

J

Some of these problems, plus the mansion uh and the annex, were not really the focus of um you know a.

J

Great deal of uh exploratory work and we've been very thorough and careful on that. So we've sort of.

J

Uncovered a lot more than we thought we were going to. I I get that yeah. I think I agree. I think the.

E

Owners, if they would have done that, would have come back here and amended their application.

E

So you're really amending a previously approved application. It needs to be clear what right, what.

E

What's in here at least to me so in the in the previously approved it was approved for demolition.

C

Then that something else was being reconstructed right, there was a reconstruction yeah, a.

H

There's all kinds of things that are also being taken away, so it doesn't make any sense to me the.

E

More, I think about it that you can cherry pick from one and remove things from the other. Well,.

J

We're not going to, I mean I'm, just I don't really we can do whatever you like. I can.

J

Preserve the connector in this application, if you like that, can be preserved and not part of this, it.

J

Isn't really part of this application? Okay, so if we are going to take all of what is not part that.

J

Wasn't part of this application, so it can still not be. We can deserve it and you've said it and.

C

That's what's going to happen, then, right, if that's how you like that, if you'd like us to start over.

J

When we begin phase two, which is a whole other thing, then that's fine and we can just not.

J

Be utilizing the demolition from the prior approval, we'll just preserve that no you're going.

C

To change that, because you said you're not going to have the indoor outdoor swimming pool, which.

J

Well, no, yes, which was kind of a cool thing.

J

Deeply into you know that approval which is not in progress yet.

G

So I'm kind of like not super prepared to wing it. I know on what the plan is there.

D

That's fine, I think by you, stating that that is just not going to be.

D

That's not part of this application and everything is just going to be correct frozen then that's.

D

Fine, that's fine! That's works for me, um so we were questioning any other questions here. Mr adams.

I

It's unclear in your your overhead, drawing again it's scale that we're being operating this at that.

I

You're moving the center dormer on the back uh plane of the roof of the main building. Yes, that.

J

Is on page it's three feet over, I just when I look at it on the drawing it does not look anywhere.

I

Near like three feet, uh all I've got is a piece of paper in my eyeball squinting. But okay, it's been.

J

uh It's been field verified, I mean it can't it can't go any farther than that rafter and it works.

J

um To move three feet in that direction, and it abuts trying to see if I can find a photo.

J

3.2, oh god, that's way better.

I

The the place that I was looking at it in uh damn you know.

I

I was uh on 7.4, okay, there's that overhead again, this is it in the photo brutally.

I

Large scale I mean small scale. Excuse me, oh, I think that's showing just existing.

J

Yes, that's just that's existing. So what where's the drawing that shows us with it moved then 3.2.

I

Thank you very much um next question. If you don't mind, uh I I've noticed in your models.

I

Subtle differences in the balustrade on the roof, sometimes elevation, sometimes the size of the.

I

Skirt, sometimes with and without brackets, that go to the roof, sometimes with and without finials is.

I

There, a consensus on that the widow's walk. That's up, there is going to be removed and reinstalled. It.

J

Is not original, but it's going to be retained. The thing that's there now, which is not historic, will.

J

Be will be kept. It's in perfect condition, it's brand new, so we're going to put it right back. Okay,.

J

So to answer day's question, I think I remember the back side of that of that widow's walk rail.

H

Is a completely different look than what's at the front? It's it's very cheap! It's just! Okay!.

H

um That's what I, when I looked out, that's what I saw something was very different in the back than.

H

There was in the front, it was, uh I think it was historically installed only on the front, someone.

J

Who walked through had told us that, but I can't recall exactly it was done recently yeah. They.

D

Just yeah there was nothing up there and I think no one had been broken and there were bouncers.

A

um Somebody from hingham dave's been up there yeah. um I could probably find the date.

K

It was originally just on the front of the building. uh It was extended to all four sides.

K

And we did have it. Oh here you go, 2014 is when they extended the little walk to all four sides.

K

I would be if I've missed that detail. I'd be surprised margot, but.

K

I believe it's all the same balustrades top uh top rail, but I could be wrong. I was looking out.

H

Of his face about that yeah, the the intent is, uh whoever did it did a nice job, but, like anything.

K

Else in new england, it's out of pine, so it just needs to come off, be prepped painted it has to.

K

Come off for the roof anyways, and then it will go back on we're not intending to change it. Just.

K

Paint it and put it back up good. We understand any more question. The existing building.

I

Has copper hips on its slate roof? um Is it your intention to replace those copper, hips.

K

Copper hips and valleys because earlier there was a mention about the slates, the using the full-size.

I

Slates slate-like material on the hips so where you wouldn't have to you, want.

I

To use a solid material there, because it wouldn't show the waffle pattern of the cuts.

I

Which- and so that made me think why would you be putting slate on the hips if you're putting.

I

Copper on the hips uh that was just factoring into our decision making process why we selected them.

K

A lot of the other vendors you actually have to use a trim piece because they're all open back.

K

So whenever you go into a valley or uh or a hip or a rake, you have to add a thick trim piece to high.

I

Using those slates not to cap the hip but as as the last shingle to the hip correct. Thank you very.

I

Much these are see. This is all pointed question. This could be your new business. I hope not and.

I

The next one is: were you aware of how thick the slate that you've provided is the replica slate.

K

It is thicker there are varying thicknesses of the slate that's up there, it's not as thick as the.

K

Bottom exposure of the one that we've provided, but it does vary on some of the slate and I I can't.

K

Tell we spoke with a couple different contractors of what the original thickness of that slate is. I.

K

Mean most you buy it now it's quarter inch but there's certainly pieces on the original roof.

K

That are, you know: 3 8 half inch that's closer to five-eighths um and it would be every one correct.

I

um Okay, thank you very much. Okay, uh karen your hand. uh Yes, I I just want to confirm that you.

A

Are planning to replace the chimney in the annex you're going to rebuild that? Okay? Oh yes! In kind.

J

Thank you good bricks. um Anyone else. Yes, mr thank you um I want to thank you guys.

F

Followers this I mean there's a lot of detail in here. You guys have clearly done a lot of work.

F

um And this is a very important house, obviously for portsmouth historic district. It's very.

F

Prominent and center stage, um so we want to make sure we do our due diligence here. My.

F

Only question I guess was on the now that we're meeting the cornices from the nx to the mansion.

F

um And I know chairman brought this up earlier, that dental work.

A

I mean: is it, does it? Is it possible to match that all around, or is that something that would.

F

Isn't historically accurate that isn't, I think we decided that preserving the history of the.

J

Two pieces yeah connecting them as harmoniously as possible, was just our best best step forward.

J

You know keeping keeping the profiles but just sort of matching them up matching the the eaves.

J

Matching some of them, some of them matched closer than I anticipated they would so that's sort of.

J

Our we want to retain the original um sort of subordinate primary yeah yeah, and I can see.

F

That how it keeps the the main mansion dominant mm-hmm, um no, the then the main other concern.

F

Would be the fact that the the little part coming off the annex that we margot mentioned yeah.

J

Yes, we're fine. With that, I mean you know it's it's yeah and I understand it's a process.

C

Counselor blaylock's concern, or is there any other questions in general? I have some comments.

B

Martin, um I think it's terrific what you're doing it's! It's a first-class uh restoration renovation.

B

Adaption, I am disappointed with the slate, though I got to say that you know I thought.

B

That you were going to retain the slate at least on the mansion portion of it uh you're going so.

B

Far into the restoring the windows and restoring some of the features, the clapboards, the you know.

B

Would you consider keeping the slate I mean we, I think it's such an important element of the house.

B

And um do you mean using new real slate yeah using real, genuine slates? I know.

B

I just I just feel, like you, you've gone, that far to to restore the mansion.

B

That by cheating it with the with the plastic slate you're cheating, it.

B

I I would just. I would just think that you're I don't know if you're doing it to add that.

B

One inch inch of insulation, which is really not going to get you a lot. I.

B

Assume that you're going to insulate the bulk of the roof to meet energy codes from the inside.

B

So if you could do everything you're doing yeah and and put real slate on the main house.

B

I'd say that you have, you know, grade a class restoration preservation.

J

I think the weight was a consideration from engineering.

J

I'm not sure without him here exactly how much impact that is.

J

And the continuous rigid, I think, is necessary with all the timbers we have in that uh area. The.

J

Timbers and the purlins and and all the sistering we're gonna have to do. There's gonna be a lot of.

J

Telescoping through with all of that, um so I think that was the basis of the decision.

B

It just it's just uh it's just painful to see you go that far and not go that one last mile.

C

Martin, I don't want to uh take the floor. I certainly you know. I want you to continue.

C

But I would also say um so: the building was designed back in 1793 for the slate roof.

C

And it held the weight of that slate roof up until right now, you're going to have this all opened. I.

C

Know that your structural engineer is going to be sure that this roof is going to be beefed up.

C

Substantially because we saw a number of elements, cut away and haphazard framing so to speak, so you.

C

Have all the time and the option in the world to put that thing up to 200 pounds, a square foot or.

C

Whatever that roof you, you can do it. So I uh all I'm saying is um that your argument.

C

Against using slate because of the weight uh doesn't ring true.

A

And I'm going to let ma martin keep well. I I think I've pushed as far I mean if you were.

B

And it troubles me that you know I don't expect the annex necessarily to be full slay.

B

I mean it would be great, it'd, be fantastic um and then matching, uh but I got to think.

B

That it's just a little disappointing that that you haven't done that one last.

B

Piece, so what do we think? What do you think sweet? What do you think I don't know I'm trying to get.

C

This man yeah, I mean I would I would certainly love to see real slate used. um I don't know if.

D

We can hear any more about that that option or decision, but um I also I don't know how.

D

Well, it would work to use real slate on the main house and the fake slate on the.

D

Back, I think that you'd have to do this yeah. You could match it yeah guarantee. So we have a few.

C

Other people over here on the other side, because if this is going to be a deal breaker then is it.

F

Thank you. I do think, because this is such a focal point. This is front and center stage.

F

I mean you drive down from city hall, that is the building you're. Looking at um you know, I mean you.

F

See that before you see the governor's mansion um and I I think yeah putting that like holding that.

F

It just feels so just genuine, um I don't know what it would look like, but I think, but I know.

F

That's obviously I don't know I'd be uncomfortable with the fake slate. I think, on the main mansion.

F

Mark now having a straw vote, I'm always in support of original materials.

I

David, I I'd go so far as to say that I'm I'm as bothered by the the fact that they want to.

I

Strip the whitewash off the chimneys this uh to me this whole this thing's run aground for.

I

Me I I, I love the idea of what they want to do, but this is just running around I don't. I don't.

I

Think much of the slate situation, because it's just whether it's the air slate or not.

I

It's just unnaturally thick and there may be thick pieces, but there mostly aren't um I I've had.

I

Problem with being old and having done this sort of thing for 50 some years since I've had way too.

I

Much of the slate my hands didn't know um that's white wash on those the white wash. You know you.

I

Mentioned that painter in the world hasn't gone up there and glopped over another coat of paint. Oh.

I

Including me, a couple of times and the window, the uh the langdon house next door and and um uh oh.

I

God, the wendell house on I mean how many of these houses have painted chimneys they've been painted.

I

For a long long time, the paintings came in with the black slate roof, the the colonial buildings.

I

That they were building had natural brick on wood, shingle roofs. We hadn't actually started importing.

I

That much slate then, but by the by by the 1800s, it's the full industry of it and everybody in.

I

The process of re-roofing the buildings put slate on because it was the killer material.

I

And they spruced up the chimneys because they didn't want them to look shabby like they used to.

I

So they whitewashed them. I also uh I'm gonna, I'm not going to be able to support this application.

I

Just simply because of the work that they're doing to the roof line of the dependency, the condition.

C

All right, so there you have it yeah. So there you have it um anyone else. If, if I may real quick.

K

We would be willing to stick with original material put slate on the roof.

K

And strike the synthetic out of the application, I will tell you that, after.

K

Nothing short of probably 20. Some odd phone calls finding a slate roofer. That uh is a.

K

Skilled craftsman that will show up day after day is exceedingly difficult, and that was a huge.

K

Part of the decision- quite frankly, no you're not going to get the massachusetts company.

C

Coming up with an entire village of people, uh that's going to do the roof in two days.

K

Yeah no understood yeah, you got to start looking in new york and and some of these.

K

Other areas, but uh we would we would be agreeable to now. I did speak with a couple different people.

K

And there is no certainty with taking the slate uh correct me dave if I'm wrong, it's black.

K

The slate that's up there begins with an m machinicus. Thank you. um There's no certainty.

K

That the slate coming off the roof is going to come off and be able to be reused. The.

K

Other challenge is that type of slate, as I am told, is no longer currently mined, but they do.

K

Have some that are stockpiled in areas? So all of these things are what boiled into this decision.

K

We will we will source and there could be an administrative approval, we'll source.

K

uh New slate and bring it to you, but you have to understand, we have a majority of the board.

D

Well and um I'm assuming you've talked to someone at south church who they just put on a whole new.

D

Thing he's got a whole new roof yep, uh not someone at south church. I talked with uh old mohawk, uh who.

K

They consulted on that project. uh They'd be a great company out of melrose mass who we'd.

K

Love to hire, but we have to wait, I think three or four years so there's a challenge there, but.

K

We'll we'll go ahead and take on that challenge. The last piece that just caught me off guard.

K

Dave was the the white washing of the chimney. I didn't know that was a um a sticking point and.

K

Quite frankly, never even considered uh keeping it. We just figured the healthy thing for the mortar.

K

Was to reinstate the chimney as it was in its natural state, so everybody's got their.

I

Own view of things yeah absolutely yeah yeah I mean when I was thinking about that.

D

The painted chimney as well, and I think that you could make the case either way in my opinion, to.

D

Remove the coating, what and I'm glad that you have been talking to an expert with removing.

D

The coatings, because um what can happen is even with a very sensitive process like.

D

The sponge jet or whatever you come out and and that that glazing, that natural glazing.

D

From the firing process is removed from the surface of the brick and that's just going to.

D

Make huge problems down the road and, and and it may be, that the paint has already done that.

D

Damage so you'll have to put another coating on it and I think that you could use a white or you know.

D

Restore the color: that's on there now or use the prosoco sealant to really.

D

So is there any other questions? Could I open this up to the public, then.

C

Is there anyone in the public that would like to speak about this project.

L

Hello, dick bagley 213 pleasant to your butter and I've been following the work. I've talked to the.

L

Owner um david has been open to talk to my wife. I've met and talked with brad who's doing a lot.

L

Of the com work at this stage, I've tried. I have a good deal of confidence in the people that have.

L

Been brought in from strawberry bank and atheneum to understand the nature of what was done. But I.

L

Think I hear some things that are inconsistent with what the historic district commission should.

L

Be doing which is this, isn't really a preservation or a restoration. This is a new home. If you look.

L

At the finished product this you could see this all over manchester by the sea in massachusetts.

L

It is the idiosyncratic history is what makes the house really interesting. We look at the south side.

L

Five years ago we took down the maple trees so that jog that covers up apparently some.

L

Window that was in the mansion is, I understand that you want to sort of.

L

Fix that, but the stock commission is about the outside, not in the inside.

L

And I understand the stair situation: we've known the solutos in the 15 years that we've been there.

L

And we knew the wongs and I have to agree with the comment that came over here and and I don't think.

L

I I think these people are great people. I think the people that are working on it are great people.

L

I just think that it does deserve a comment and that's all I'm really trying to say here. I.

L

Am concerned that the longs made the application you're, not revising the wonks application, you're.

L

Dealing only with the mansion and the annex, most of what the wongs did were on the carriage house.

L

In the back, which is not you know, we don't really know the date of the carriage house.

L

They wanted to expand the carriage house in the back. I worked with nick.

L

On the widow's, walk and the whole argument was, the widow's walk in the front was original. So.

L

It didn't really need a match in the back and and then nick will remember that the solutions didn't.

L

Want to do it at all and they were going to just let it fall down and there's a lot of history here.

L

At one point, this property was going to be divided and 11 condominiums were going to be built on it.

L

And then the city sort of stepped in and sort of said. Well, we don't think so.

L

And so the intent I think of our good new neighbors are is great. I.

L

I would have preferred I've done this before with historic homes. I'd prefer you lift it put.

L

A new foundation under it and leave the jog as it is and keep the original viewpoint as it is.

L

Certainly, retaining the original slate that there is a worker that slate is not readily.

L

Available but there was the seleufos did fix the the annex slate by bringing in somebody from maine.

L

But it's a huge job and one of the things that the solutions did learn at the time.

L

Is that the structure of the annex is such that you wouldn't want to use new slate on it?.

L

So that's a little bit of the history of and what I'm worried about is at the end of the.

L

Day, I'm not here to complain, I'm not here to say that that anybody's doing anything wrong.

L

I just would prefer that the original vision of a historic home is what you should be capturing.

L

As a historic district commission, and what I even more worried about is.

L

In my mind, you're building you're taking some pieces off and you're putting them back on. It's.

L

A new home and it's being redesigned and you're not going through the normal new home process,.

L

So I would have to agree with the comment. I think you what happens to the original.

L

Wong proposal is it still there for the carriage house, I'm concerned about the carriage house.

L

Or does it all go away, it's starting to start all over again. Is that what it is because it was over.

C

Two years ago, and they never came back and renewed it- I say so- it expires yeah. Okay, so um that's it.

C

For that, but we understand your comments for my biggest concern is you know on richmond street.

L

Which was originally part of the property- that's been going on for 15 years yeah and it's still.

L

Not completed and there's nothing the city can do, and even though the permits run out there are as.

L

You know that there's a you you're not denied the right to come back in and reopen it all up again.

L

So I just I you know, I don't want this to become a brick market, no all over again and.

L

We know that that's done to that street, and so I I think, there's good intentions involved here.

L

I'd prefer you keep the original vision of a historic home. That's what a historic commission.

L

Is here for, if you decide to rebuild it, make the owners go through the approval process of every.

L

Material as you would do for a new home. Thank you. Thank you very much. um Anybody else in the public.

A

What do you say nick hang on out there.

A

Online, no one appears to have their hand up so okay. So I'm going to close this um public hearing.

C

And look for motion discussion whatever and let's get this going.

B

Well, I'd I'd like to make a motion to approve um this application, uh with the stipulation that the.

B

The roof, um I guess we're going to look at the roof as a.

B

As a natural slate should be used and the samples submitted for administrative approval how's that.

E

Correct um and the color match of the moore and brick will also be submitted for administrative.

E

Programs could we change that stipulation slightly to have it be an on-site brick sample.

E

Okay, oh like a mock-up or I think so, mason can throw in together pretty quickly.

I

It takes care of brick, brick spacing mortar, all of those things all in one package. Thank you. Thank.

B

You very much, but I just I just wanted to add that I greatly appreciate the fact that you're willing.

B

To to accommodate that request of the slate natural slate, um I think that's going to take.

B

A terrific project and just make it even better. This is going to serve as an example of how to.

B

Properly do the home of this nature of this size, this importance, and so um my findings of fact.

B

Do you need a second first? Did we have a second? No, we didn't. I don't know if you'd finished his.

F

Motion all right, yeah somebody wanted to make it yeah well he's starting and defining as a fact.

C

Could we have a second I'll second, that thank you very much. It preserves the integrity of the.

B

District and is consistent with the special and defining characters of the surrounding properties.

A

Can I make a comment, absolutely um yeah? I just want to say this is a big and difficult.

D

Project, this is a hard one for us to look at and go through because it is such a focal property.

D

It is such a great example of of what it is in our you know, this a very important um high style house.

D

In our district um I'm going to support this it doesn't the decision doesn't come easily. I'm just.

D

Going to say- and I appreciate mr bagley's comments on how this is such a a different application for.

D

What we usually see at the htc, and um only because they have been so open in their process, they've.

D

They really have tried to get the best experts come through there. I appreciate having all of us.

D

Have the opportunity to go inside and outside the house, even though our purview is all outside and.

D

Not inside, but it helps us understand the problems. The vast amount of problems that.

D

Exist in this building, which is unfortunate um that it has gotten to this point so.

D

I still think with all the problems that this structure sees the solution that you've come.

D

Up with is pro is, it seems to be the best path forward for making this um a livable and usable.

D

House I again it's it's uh not normal, it's it's a different tack than what we would usually see, but.

D

I think in this situation I can can approve this, and I appreciate that everything is going to be.

D

Rebuilt and as much of the original material trim and everything reused and.

D

So, thank you all right, um mr blairlock, do you have anything to add for your second or.

C

Yeah, uh thank you jimmy um yeah I'd just like to thank the clients, um all the detail. I mean just.

F

The fact that you know we talked about fixing the siding that you're not going to just fill it with.

F

Caulking and paint it over. You know that you're actually going to do the right thing.

F

And restore properly- and I know this is a very difficult project, as commissioner rudig said,.

F

I really appreciate doing the slate roof. I know that's not easy.

F

I know you mentioned it was a hot roof and need to be ventilated and and the weight of.

F

The slate as well so I know that's making the job more difficult, but I do think it'll make a.

F

Better project in the end, since this is so front and center, um you know I mean every.

F

This is the the first house, a lot of people see when they drive into downtown um but yeah. I just.

F

Want to thank you again for all the effort, because this is a very prominent in the historic district.

C

All righty, so uh oh margot, yes, um I I find myself torn because, as I mentioned at our last meeting,.

H

The raising of the building and and how much taller that roof line is compared to the mansion.

H

I had concerns about the annex no longer looking like an annex that it was going to look not bigger.

H

Than the mansion, obviously, but it would be more prominent than it was before, and the proportions.

H

Were chosen when the house was built for a reason, so I appreciate you showed us new perspectives so.

H

We could take a look at what it was going to look like and you ease some of my concerns.

H

I don't think we're doing. I don't think you're doing the wrong thing by taking the structure down.

H

And starting over again, given all of the research that you've done into its current condition,.

H

But I find myself torn quite a bit as to whether raising this thing up as much as you've suggested.

H

Is the right thing to do? I understand why you're doing it, but I am struggling.

C

um I would just like to say that I have never seen such a.

C

Mansion of proportions and beauty in such a great location in such terrible condition.

C

The what maybe, mr bagley didn't get a chance to go down into the basement or what have you but.

C

This house really needs to work and uh you people are devoted to do the work.

C

For that reason, I'm going to support it, so I guess I'll just take a regular voice vote so.

C

uh Everybody who's in favor, say aye, aye, aye and those that are against, say, nay,.

C

Nay, is that two five two, it sounded like two two: you have your permit with the stipulations.

C

That we've mentioned, thank you very much. You're welcome thanks carlos those were great drawings.

E

That was a good, a good plan set that you said. Thank you. It's a lot of credit today.

J

Getting better investigative work, except for this late stuff.

A

Thanks again, thank you yep, you too, you too all right. So I'm I'm moving right along.

C

202 court street property group llc owner for property located at 202 court street.

C

Wherein permission is requested to allow the demolition of the remaining structure to allow.

C

For the reconstruction of the firehouse, as originally approved, excuse me, as per.

C

Plans on file in the planning department said: property is shown on assessor map 116 as lot 35.

C

Lies within the characteristic 4-l-1 and the historic districts.

C

Who's here to speak on this good evening, matt silva from profile homes. We are a portsmouth-based.

M

Construction company recognize a lot of your faces, but for the essence of those that are unfamiliar.

M

With the history of us, presenting in front of this board I'll, take a quick minute to sort of.

M

Start from the beginning, we started this process a few years back when we purchased the building.

M

With intention of turning it into living space, it is the original ports and fire station, but.

M

100 years prior to us taking ownership of the building, it was the right baker, auto garage.

M

We've worked with this board, you all have been great advisors of ours.

M

Sharing ideas, we went through a number of work sessions here to create something that I think we.

M

All felt comfortable with we came back in the fall to present to you after we had done our selective.

M

Demolition on the inside the building we realize many of the structural defects and in that process.

M

Working with the city on the administration side about what was right to take down and what was not.

M

At that point in time, in the fall when we had met, we discussed that we were trying to take down as.

M

Minimal amount of the building as possible try to save as much of what was there, whether that.

M

Was practical or not, it was still our goal and it had been our goal. I think I hope everybody who has.

M

Been here through this process has known every time we come before you, we've tried to find ways.

M

To save this building, in fact, john, the last time I was here, I remember when this session closed.

M

You sort of shot it out at me as I was walking out of the room, save that building and I.

M

Whispered back, you know we're trying to, and uh so here we are before you tonight to say that we.

M

Believe we've done everything we can to the point of embarrassment over people wondering probably.

M

What we're doing and why we're playing this game of whack-a-mole, uh if you will, with the building.

M

Every time we open something up, it further brings itself down the line of what it is. We're.

M

Trying to do so, we've spent tens of thousands of dollars just to prop the building up to where it.

M

Stands right now just to sort of satisfy the fact that behind the bones of the building.

M

Behind the sheetrock and the plaster of the building, when it's redone, this structure will.

M

Remain even though it's straightened, uh it's got to the point now that we've looked at it and we've.

M

Thought they're really this is this is not the best use of the building. If buildings have a.

M

Soul to them, then this building would rather see us repurpose it inside the structure, specifically.

M

So recently, at the request of city administration, we met with the new building inspector with a.

M

Fresh view of the structure discussing what was there, we were still in the process, obviously of.

M

Working to dismantle the foundation start to put a new foundation under the building again moving.

M

Our staging here and there so that we could dig and start to properly try and save that building.

M

What remains there now, though, is something that really would truly be potentially covered up.

M

Nothing about our application from the first time we came here, the renderings that we showed you the.

M

Selections that we've made any of the details of that, if you're looking at the details that were.

M

Submitted you'll see, there's a final rendering of what the outside structure of the building.

M

Will look like nothing about that has changed in fact, in our hope, you know. By doing it the way.

M

That we're talking about this is not a financial decision. This is more of a decision being made in.

M

The essence of um what we should be doing in terms of speed to to make this this building.

M

Start to perform and uh and get to its completion phase, which is frankly what it um deserves. So you.

M

Know in in how we got there, I I I'll I'll kind of cap with that and certainly um take more questions.

M

From you, if needed, um I'm sure if you drive by it you do see it has been an arduous process for us.

M

While we've tried everything that we can and try to removing and saving what parts of the structure.

M

What we've decided and even come to the agreement with the people who purchased the building is an.

M

Addendum to their contract, which includes that we'll salvage, what is there, but instead of keeping.

M

It hidden behind the walls, as sort of it was and that we were all stewards of what this building.

M

Was going to be that we would then be able to take that off site, save it and then be able.

M

To bring that back in into some architectural piece so that when you were inside that building.

M

It sort of showed more of the bones of it. It's it's a post and beam structure.

M

But the scattered framing that holds some of that posted being together. The way it was.

M

Originally framed is really of no value, but the frame itself to us kind of tells the story. We've.

M

Saved a lot of the material that has been on the project as well part of the uh partnership.

M

Team, that's there has uh used it in various projects. We also um our uh I. I know our.

M

Fire department has some uses for some of the material that they'd like to see as well. For you.

M

Know for for furniture decorations and things like that, there's more in that building right now that.

M

We could necessarily do um with with the redesign the discussions with the building department of.

M

Course has also been about co-compliance, and what health and safety concerns that they would have in.

M

Us keeping it you know, portsmouth is a historical city, and so the value of that is important to me.

M

Too and then it comes about the decision of well, what's going to stand for another 4 or six hundred.

M

Years after we're all long gone, if it's putting it back on that foundation, that's probably not.

M

Going to be it, if it's taking the building down and itself, then I believe that building.

M

Should be saved, we're not trying to just build a brand new building, we want to keep. What's there.

M

In that process, you know it will provide us with a better. You know: health safety, welfare of what else.

M

Is going on there, it makes me nervous, quite frankly, of seeing the building as it stands.

M

Right now, we've weathered a few storms, I'm sure we'll weather some more. That's not a deciding.

M

Factor to it, but in every professional opinion of everyone who's come out there.

M

Without the building chief building inspector being here himself to uh say this, his his point.

M

In saving the building seemed to be very minimal other than sentimental value. That.

M

That we have so um you know if I were to simplify what it is that we're here tonight to ask for.

M

Reluctantly in some ways, but I think it makes sense to the point that we've we've taken it to.

M

That simply to selectively dismantle the structure of what remains salvage, that off site so that it.

M

Can be reused inside the structure instead of hidden behind the um the walls of the structure.

M

Simply so that we all know that it's there but better. Yet we would know that it's actually being.

M

Used inside the building, you know it's a guarantee that we've also made to the contract of the people.

M

Who have purchased the structure so we've had a good relationship and taking suggestions from.

M

This board as well to anything that we would like to see so the last time we met, we talked about.

M

Adding some brick to the foundation of the new structure, which is obviously part of the agreement.

M

Of the plan- and we just want to keep what we want the same, look and feel of what is there.

M

But salvaging what is there at our professional opinion at this point in time.

M

I think we've come to a roadblock with so okay. I think we all understand kind of.

C

Whether we've got comments and questions here can I can I just say something before you get.

E

Started, um I was one of the city officials that trotted down to the site a couple of weeks ago.

E

With the building inspectors, both the one that's been on the project for the last three years.

E

And uh ashanti wolf, the chief building inspector and I met with them this morning, just to get their.

E

Sense on this application- and they are 100 percent in support of the commission.

E

Approving the demolition of what remains, I just made a few notes from speaking with them.

E

They feel like they, both the frame and the foundation are structurally deficient. There's.

E

So much rot in. What's there, it's not really reusable they'd, be surprised if five percent.

E

Of what you still see on the site remains on the site by the time it gets through the code review.

E

They strongly believe that a monolithic poor for the foundation is going to be much better.

E

For the durability of the building over the long term, for given it's going to be 99 new.

E

Construction above that foundation- and they definitely have public safety concerns as what the.

E

Applicant mentioned about they're, not even sure they want people under that frame, doing the work.

E

With the way, it's not just stabilized, but the way it's situated yeah so.

E

I think so the last thing I'd say is, I think, all of us.

E

Went into this, including the inspection department, with the assumption.

E

Things wouldn't be nearly as bad as they were when they did the demolition. You know exploratory.

E

Work- and it just led from one thing to the other- we've been watching this for a couple of years.

E

From a permitting compliance perspective, and um it is what it is, but there's just it seems like.

E

There's I'm surprised there aren't letters to the editor that uh work against us for no ideas.

M

Here please having it retail, to be honest, so I'm sure that the letters will come in. However,.

E

On the other side, on the other side, but after um on my own experience, it was 20 25 years ago.

C

Taking apart a motel in salisbury, I didn't know the two men that were inside the building, but I.

C

Was doing similar type of jobs and um essentially the motel collapsed on them when they were they.

C

Had done similar to what you've done right here and they took one too much and the whole thing.

C

Came right down, they were both killed. It's a terrible thing. um The best thing would be to just.

C

Take this down right now and uh as long as we have, we have your guarantees that all of the materials.

C

The corner boards, the window trim, all, is being replicated. The soffits of fascia is up top.

C

um I assume you're putting a brick veneer on this cement monolithic foundation. We would be.

M

Yeah, that would be um part we didn't notate that in our conversation, but obviously where.

M

We are adding that to the back, I mean that's part of the historical value that I figured.

M

As a as a as a group here, we think that nick is putting that in as a stipulation yeah. If you.

I

Don't mind once again with an on-site sample uh to be reviewed by some selected portion of.

I

The commission, yes, so you understand you're, going to have your mason do um a bit of mock-up so that.

C

We can see the bricks and the more yeah you might want to do that before you order too many bricks.

M

That's the right, that's good to know: we've got a lot of extra brick around there. So.

H

True, so could I could I just ask a question um for future understanding.

H

The the extent of the work that happened from the time this was approved until now.

H

Did this the scope of the work and demolition to the building happened because of the extent of the.

H

Changes you were preparing for, or would this have happened anyway? I guess what I'm asking is.

H

Did this did this plan fail? Because what you were trying to turn the building into was too much for.

H

The building to manage or no matter what you were going to do with the building, even if you.

H

Were not going to add dormers and you were not going to turn into condos. You were just going to.

H

Fix it up so to speak, you do you feel you would have been in the same place.

M

um It's a great question. I I I think.

M

That, if I was not so stubborn as to every when we first met with you, I think this is a good.

M

Question because I think it's important for the board to know in this process. But when we first.

M

Met with you, we had not done any demolition inside that building. We hadn't removed a single piece of.

M

Plaster to know what was really behind the walls and we always assumed we knew, but there was some.

M

Code compliance that had been taken place over that building, but we knew it was in rough shape.

M

My goal was always to save that building and every contractor that we've had that has come in.

M

There doesn't have the same heart for that. Always some do some don't, but they are like. What are you.

M

Saving here and so we've always fought that one and we you know that together have said it's worth.

M

Saving from a code, compliance standpoint from a practicality standpoint, the moment that I open.

M

Any wall or any space I now have to bring whatever is there and connected to it to code.

M

So, structurally, that's why we ended up here. Last time we had to take this part down. We had to put.

M

A new foundation there were details around that. We were willing to continue down that road. No.

M

Matter how painful it felt for us that or how many times it woke me up in the middle of night, when.

M

I heard the wind blow, but um uh the reason that this failed, this idea failed. I I believe is that.

M

um I think someone else would have probably come in here and said: we need to take the structure.

M

Down, they would have done the selective demolition first and then they would have come in front of.

M

You and said we need to take that structure down. I probably still would have come in and done the.

M

Selective demolition first opened up, the wall saw it was there and still said to you. I'd like to.

M

Try and save the structure, but ultimately that's really not the right decision for the structure.

M

Once you get right down to it so code, compliance and stubbornness, I think, is tied to the answer.

M

So, sort of on that on that score, yeah, the applicant was asked by us to come here.

E

The applicant didn't submit this voluntarily, so we approached the applicant. That's how unusual this.

E

Circumstance is I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I think that this is illustrative for future.

H

People who buy buildings like this and have these grand plans of turning it into condos.

H

And putting in dormers and doing all this sort of stuff that you have to understand and really know.

H

The old building, first before you decide that you can turn it into a modern condominium. Absolutely.

M

Correct so this is not a criticism to you. It's more of a lesson learned for everybody correct. We.

M

I I think, I think, all around in all conversations that we've had, um that has been the takeaway for.

M

Everybody involved in it, we've all tried to save it, and we all thought we could. We've all walked.

M

Through it, we all thought we might be able to do it. Co-Compliance on the list goes, so I I think we.

M

All agree completely yeah. I know you want to move, but I want to just. Can I say one thing? Yes, yes,.

C

Thank you. It can't stop you. I guess not um sorry about that. I think it's equally instructive for us.

E

Given matt was back here with that garage, that was on no foundation, which is why he was.

E

Here, the last time, what we've got to learn from this, irrespective of a proposed use, is that the.

E

Project that got approved by the historic district commission commission preserved virtually nothing.

E

Of the building and I would be willing to wage a bet that most of the commissioners that voted.

E

On it did not understand that that frame, you're looking at is basically all that we were asking.

E

Them to save no sheathing, no windows, no frames, no siding, no corner boards, no doors, nothing.

E

And I'm not sure that was clear to anybody. It certainly wasn't to me and half of you have called.

E

Me over the last two years saying what's going on over there, but so it's a lesson learned that we.

E

Need to be careful what we are looking at and whether we understand it before we approve it.

E

That's all well, um I saw david but nick if I may go ahead. Okay, I'd like to say that this.

C

Is the second time I've seen this happen and it just isn't going to happen again. I hope.

C

The dennett house off of prospect street and dennett street the old center chimney colonial.

C

If that were to have been left as a colonial home center chimney,.

C

It's certainly one of the oldest wooden houses in portsmouth that somebody who loved that type.

C

Of house could have restored it, there were rotted, sills, etc. Basically, the whole thing boiled down to.

C

Making that into four condominiums that its floor plan and framing and the giant chimney and the.

C

Stairwell that wrapped around the chimney in the front didn't work out into their program and so.

C

We got convinced that the building was beyond repair and we allowed it to be taken down and.

C

That's the first time this is the second time. That's all I want to say. I don't want to really.

C

Extend this out a lot longer, but david uh much the same complaint as everyone else. Mr chairman,.

I

Thank you very much um just pointing out that this is the second frame we've lost tonight.

I

So if we're sitting here three years out and ostensibly they've, been working on this plan,.

I

Is that, where we're going with this yeah, because it the the building that you approved, you thought.

I

Was something that fit on the frame that you were preserving.

I

And now we know that the building that you, the commission, approved.

I

Is not dependent on the frame at all. Is this the building that we think should be there.

I

Or is that a place too far to go with this one? I think you've gone too far.

I

You know that's a bridge, you always think that about you know just the condition of.

E

The frame rather than the the frame is that is still the shape of the frame, and I know.

E

Dave, that's probably not what you're suggesting sound like a george washington's axe story to me.

A

Yeah been rehabbed three times he had replaced once any other serious comments.

C

Oh, I have a serious comment. I look, you know we only have so much control over.

B

What's going to come before us, I mean if, yes, if you'd.

B

Come before us and said yeah I want to change the roof out. I want to just paint the interior yeah.

B

You probably wouldn't be in this position, but it wouldn't have changed the foundation. It.

B

Wouldn't change the rot in the walls, it wouldn't have changed. The framing that's deteriorated.

B

Look we we only have control over what becomes comes before, as someone wants to take a project.

B

And and turn it into condominiums and multiple units. What are we going to tell them? They can't.

B

Do that that you can't use the building of the you know, we're not going to allow that use.

B

No we're not that's, not a rule, so yeah, it's a sad situation and I'm I was wondering.

B

When you were going to come before us again so, let's deal in reality, I mean.

B

The building's gonna, the building's in bad shape, the building, has a cancer, and we could have just.

B

Left it alone, but you think it's going to go away. No, it's still going to get worse and worse and.

B

Someone's going to be living in a situation where they could have a structural failure and.

B

So I'm just saying you know we have to work within the reality that we're presented with.

D

And I'll just say make it brief. I want to close this. I know I'm just going to say I'm sorry that.

D

This building ended up being in such bad shape and that you are stuck with this problem, um but.

D

I appreciate you coming back and trying as hard as you have and again this is the the.

D

Plan that we approved- and it's still gonna look and be the same, and so um that is what it is.

M

I appreciate that, thank you, so um I guess I'm going to close this public hearing and.

C

Look was there any public? No, I'm looking for comment from the public.

C

Okay, I'm sorry is there anybody in the public that wants to speak on this.

A

I was going to make a comment too: it's okay, my name is members of the commission.

N

uh My name is matt beebe, and I've appeared before you many times as both a designer and a builder.

N

So I just want to echo a little bit the comments that a couple of commissioners made, which is.

N

It's unfortunate that we are where we are with this building. It's not necessarily the fault of.

N

The builder or the designer, I think, it's more of a process problem, so the commission has a certain.

N

Amount of power to oversee the changes to these historic buildings. The building department has a.

N

Separate set of criteria, the board of adjustment in cases where these older buildings are right.

N

Up against another building has its own set, and yet all these boards commissions and inspection.

N

Departments, don't necessarily connect in a meaningful way that can help the designer and the.

N

Builder, so if, for example, I'll just hypothesize here, if you're taking an historic building which.

N

Clearly is going to have some problems, the extent of which we can't know until the builder gets into.

N

It or we do a pre-construction survey, probably at great expense or some expense, to determine you.

N

Know what are the real problems here, but if you're going to do a significant change of use, that would.

N

Seem to me that's an opportunity for the city to have some sort of regulation. That says if this is.

N

Going to be more than a two family, or if this is going to go from the den at house, a single.

N

Family to multiple condominiums, then there should be a set of criteria that you'd have to go through.

N

To satisfy making that change, which is probably going to trigger a greater deal of inspection.

N

And survey ahead of time with a structural engineer, maybe digging around the foundation.

N

Maybe taking off a section of the wall to see what sills look like in more than one location.

N

And I get these are all expenses that will typically be borne by the developer.

N

Or the homeowner right, the builder wants to do the work, but he doesn't want to pay for it to discover.

N

Whether or not he can get the job, so I realize it's tricky. I realize that when you take and.

N

What mr silva said about the building department is entirely true. The moment we open up anything.

N

We own anything behind it, whether we had anything to do with it or not, and that goes for lead paint.

N

Hazardous materials like asbestos, sometimes you have no idea what's in there, so I you know.

N

Don't have the answer for it, but I think there should be a way for the city to look at this.

N

As a you know, with a greater view, like a broader view, it's not just saving the historic building.

N

It's saving the historic building, making it safe comply and get to a point where this doesn't.

N

Happen where either people who abut the property or drive by and say what you had said next.

N

For it's been three years what's happening, you know, there's been different points of time where.

N

You look and you think that site is really unsafe. People walk by it, people walk their dogs by it.

N

Kids, you know always want to be around the fire station and that's close proximity.

N

So, um as I said, I don't have the answers. I just think maybe there's a way for.

N

uh This to come up in discussion- I don't know if you should be brought to the city council, I'd.

N

Be curious to hear what the commission would say about how to get to a point.

N

uh Where we could have greater oversight at the beginning, rather than get to the point where this.

N

Has obviously cost the builder and the owner of the property a lot of money and they're at them.

N

At the moment, until you vote they're no closer to getting it moving forward and as a butter to the.

N

State street saloon and that project that has been ongoing now five years next month,.

N

Nothing's happened there since that fire and now it's up for sale, so we're probably looking at at.

N

Least another 24 months before anything gets done, there's got to be a clearer, cleaner path.

N

To satisfying what you guys are looking for, helping the builders.

N

Get to a point where they can complete the project and satisfying all these criteria along the way.

N

Thank you and thank you very much. uh May I make a comment too? Yes, certainly the problem, as I see.

A

It is that the dreams that some of us have require foundation and the problem is that we are not very.

A

I will use the 60s term hip on what it means to you know, get to what the foundation really is like.

A

We simply frequently follow our dreams, believing or assuming that everything.

A

Will simply work out so they're they're just learning lessons on all sites here.

A

uh In terms of how the different agencies and commissions can work together to.

A

Make sure that these things don't happen or don't happen too often is really not.

A

Our task, I think the tax really belongs to the petitioner to do his or her homework.

E

So heinz, let me just I know john you want to move on, but it's I think it's good for members.

E

That are maybe newer, maybe not to understand the differences between these couple of projects. We've.

E

Mentioned I think the first line of defense is the is the city through the htc and on 95.

E

Prospect which john mentioned earlier, we hired, we made the applicant hire a structural engineer, john.

E

Watney the same guy, we had go through the times building to save it, because we had four structural.

E

Engineers say for mr floros: it has no value, tear it down, so uh the city took the initiative to save.

E

The times building by having we shared the cost of that structural assessment through this board and.

E

We did the same on 95 prospect. It had so happened. The conclusion at 95 prospect was different from.

E

Watney uh than the tines building, but that's what it was, the the second line of defense, which.

E

Has to be the way on on what hines is saying is the marketplace. I mean time is money people own.

E

Property, if they want to throw money away every month on taxes or whatever just carrying costs,.

E

Or paying people to do things that are inefficient, like stick this thing on cribbing for two years.

E

That's their prerogative, somebody's paying for all this inefficiency, and one would expect in that.

E

Instance, if it's a hardship, they're gonna, run in and ask for hey, we did all this exploratory stuff.

E

After the permit and it's a disaster, so we need we need an off ramp. Well, that didn't happen here.

E

Probably because he's a dreamer, I have no idea, but the city was the third line of defense here.

E

And showed up on our own initiative and said hey what the heck is wrong with you.

E

Get in here and ask we're sick of looking at it, and it doesn't make any sense that you're still.

E

Playing around with these matchsticks, so the system can definitely be better.

E

And but no buts, it can be better, but we are trying to be proactive and in this case uh maybe we could.

E

Have all done some more due diligence earlier, but the the city has certainly tried on the.

E

Back end to bring them in here and have this conversation and hopefully get this project.

C

Finished, I don't know what you're saying when you say we in the city well, because the one thing.

C

I will say about going through on the sidewalk when we first went into this building the whole.

C

First floor was all tongue and groove boards the ceiling was tongue and groove boards. This thing.

C

I thought I mean they could park fire engines in there. I thought that this thing was built like.

C

The proverbial brick, you know what um I didn't feel any bouncing upstairs on the second floor.

C

To me, this building really felt rugged, and um so they had to, for some reason decided to take.

C

The entire roof off to put these dormers in didn't have to do that and once they started peeling all.

C

Of the tongue and groove boards, which is actually it's auxiliary, yeah, it actually has some.

E

Structural value, thank you very much and that's what petitions do their auxiliary structural value.

C

And um so once they stripped it down to the frame, the toothpicks. All of a sudden, it became weaker.

C

And then they could notice that the bottoms and you know the sills or whatever, but the way that.

C

It was, it probably could have gone on another 100 years. That's just the way these houses work.

C

You know they have two by fours for rafters, but somehow the roof doesn't collapse.

C

Weird, um but I think that we should just you know: let's try to move on. I don't know.

B

Oh then, you better come. Have another public speak okay, then we have another comment I'll see. If.

C

There's anybody here: hi, I'm barbra jean I'm a co-property owner to 94, 92, 94, pleasant street.

O

And I know you are worried about um you know letters, follow-up letters so I'll just give.

O

You mine now, I'm outraged, I'm outraged about this and for all the things you mentioned.

O

um And to say, oh well, here we are so it's got to come down. It should never have gotten to this.

O

Point uh and all the things matt said and all the things you've said I hope, somebody's taking.

O

Notes and put that all together so that all the agencies are communicating and that those agencies.

O

Are supporting builders who are not up to the task so not a year or two before this project.

O

Went awry the same outfit over demoed, a property that's right across from my residence, and that.

O

Project was put on hold, it was literally twisting in the wind so that children riding their bikes by.

O

Could have that building could have fallen on the same outfit and they went in and did it again and.

O

So now here we are saying: oh well, it's got to come down, so I hope that this agent, this commission.

O

The planning board, the zoning board, can we have some teeth when people go past. What they're.

O

Permitted to do- and I hear that you unfortunately did permit all of this demo, um and so you did lose.

O

The integrity of the building, because they did remove the stuff that wasn't a good idea to remove.

O

But I hope we can give some guidance to builders. I hope we can have some require some engineering be.

O

Done and have inspectors in there and everybody talking together and looking at records from.

O

The builder's history and what they've done before and to avoid avoid these things moving.

O

Forward, thank you. Thank you. We have one one speaker, matt healey um matt. Are you there.

E

His hand is up, yes, I am, can you hear me, yes, go ahead, matt name and address. I am one of.

P

The buyers and um carl ward is the other buyer. We have been watching this meeting.

P

um And texting back and forth, I wanted to say that um whether or not we're in agreement on how.

P

Much to salvage is not yet we're not yet there. uh It's a point of negotiation that we're having with.

P

Matt silva and the financer of this project, uh we are amenable to it, but we have some other concerns.

P

And so we haven't quite worked through what we're in agreement to just yet.

P

I just wanted to make sure our position was accurately represented, because it felt to me.

P

Like it was represented that we were a hundred percent behind demo, uh demolishing it we're.

P

Amenable to it, but we, it is one of several bullet points of negotiations that are currently ongoing.

C

Thank you very much for making the application about demoing the building.

C

And we've just wasted 45 minutes talking about this, um I'm suggesting that what should we do.

C

Maybe we should postpone this. What are we going to do here? He's saying he's not for.

C

This is an owner all right. Can you offer some clarity? uh Well, if I may well, I can. I can try so.

M

uh As as we discussed in clear heads discussing this, uh we are all still working through this.

M

We don't know what our possibilities are, so I have a few things to address.

M

I'll start with, I appreciate everything. That's been said in the public comment about the steps.

M

Of the process and how we achieve those steps in making sure that things like this don't happen.

M

In that process we did have engineers in this site. We did have site reviews, we did have discussions.

M

We did meet with building officials, we've been through this building so and the understanding.

M

Was the city wanted it saved until we've come to this point where the city is now saying.

M

And we are also saying we're working very hard to try and save this building and um john to.

M

Your point: no, we haven't wasted any time if the approval is that we are allowed to take that.

M

Down well then, the discussion with the owners can continue on how that is done, or what that.

M

Is um what that means? It doesn't mean we have to take the building down if we can um and we need to.

M

And all parties that are invested in the project agree. Okay, then we will all right very good.

M

But as we as I stated before, on record, there's an agreement about the salvaging of how this goes so.

M

To mr healey's point, which he is correct, we we have not all said: hey we're all on board and we're.

M

Taking it down we're we're examining what those options are and to nick's point as well we're here.

M

In part on invitation, so if we can still do something else, that's here, then we shall we.

C

Can vote on this? That's what we can do very much all right. Well, thank you very much and.

C

Thank you, mr healey. I'm sorry that I overreacted apparently um so I'm going to close this public.

C

Hearing and have a vote with the stipulations that nick has who would like to make the motion.

B

I'll do it if you don't go ahead, because I don't think we have a choice.

B

I move that we allow for the full demolition of the framing and the foundation.

B

For this building, with stipulation with stipulation that it be rebuilt.

B

Original to the app the the approvals that the uh the architecture, the.

F

Envelope the details all be replicated uh or match what was approved previously. Can I can I.

E

Just read it: the approved plans shall the approved plans and any prior stipulations shall govern the.

E

Building design, which I think covers what you just said more or less, are you good with that.

E

uh Because I've written it down, I think that's number one better. All right! Look at the uh yeah.

E

This so the second one is that a brick shelf shall be used with a mock-up required.

E

For the foundation and number three, this is me: writing this down the applicant.

E

Shall submit a formal agreement from from all owners prior to demolition.

E

Just so, we have a clear record of where, where yeah, where would he go, where you landed yeah.

E

Because if you don't get that letter of formal agreement filed you're stuck with the the prior.

E

I'm looking at this for a second I'll. Second, it you got it you're a second date, I'm second name.

C

Okay, very good, um so uh all those in favor say aye aye, aye aye did we get findings effect.

E

uh Findings, this is gonna, be difficult. I know that's why I didn't want to do it.

B

Bear with me for a moment, certainly well number three conservation, enhancement of property values.

E

Certainly not helping any now so you're you're saying that that would be the appropriate purpose.

B

Okay: number: three conservation, enhancement of property, values uh and.

L

E

About the relation and historical and architectural value of the.

B

Existing structure relation to the historic and architectural value of the existing structure.

B

I don't think yeah well yeah. I just. I just feel that.

B

We're the a point where we're we're trying to keep a corpse alive and yeah. It's done all right.

C

Okay, so all of those in favor say aye, aye and those against. So you have your possible.

C

Approval to possibly tear it down, if you think you'd like to do that. Thank you.

C

um Should we take a break, I think we should. We should all just you know, take a good deep.

C

Breath might help the next applicant yeah all right. So I'm going to take five minute break.

C

All right we're going to get back into our other one. This time. Second, half here.

A

Work sections 1.6, excuse me, I don't have it.

C

So this is a work session requested by working stiff properties, llc owner for property, located.

C

At 92 pleasant street, wherein permission is requested to allow renovations to an.

C

Existing structure wait. We haven't done that one yet replaced windows.

C

And stormwater, no, we haven't done that. We haven't done that 129 stages. I'm very sorry,.

A

Aren't we on 129 state street? Yes, yes, we are all right. I was just too enthusiastic.

C

Okay, so the party atmosphere is now stopped and we're back to work session requested by 129 state.

C

Street llc owner for property located at 129 state street, wherein permission is requested to allow.

C

Renovations and new construction to an existing structure, removal of shutters addition of dormers.

C

Roof and siding changes as per plans on file in the in the planning department.

C

Said property is shown on assessor map 107 as lot 47 and lies within the character district 4.

C

And historic districts: okay, are we going down for work sessions, yeah who's here.

A

A

I guess you're going to be right here right next over here.

A

All righty so we're here for.

C

129 state street and who is here to present and talk shane foresley with uh hampshire,.

Q

Development corp uh general contractor um on behalf of the owners of 129 state street. um I do.

Q

Have hard copies if anybody would prefer that, as opposed to looking at their uh tablets or laptops.

C

No yeah, thank you. No I'm gonna have one.

C

Absolutely real paper: it's a nice! It's a nice! Please! Yes, absolutely! Thank you very much.

A

This is how they used to treat us it's bound and everything. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Q

So we're back here for 129 state street. We took many of the comments and feedback from.

Q

Last month's work session and incorporated it into the package you see here today.

Q

Based on our conversation last month, a lot of what we gathered was.

Q

The modifications to the modern edition, where generally well received with a little bit of.

Q

Feedback, I know we, we had some resistance for the dormers facing state street, which have been.

Q

Removed, as you can see, and the architect and owner instead now propose two skylights on the.

Q

Roof facing state street what you'll also notice is the incorporation of innocuous at the ridge.

Q

Of the main structure.

Q

Another few subtle notes: you continue to see the stone, sills and headers, as proposed in last.

Q

Month's package, what we are researching is the material of the stone banding on state street.

Q

The owner would like to match that and or utilize granite or another stone seal.

Q

For the headers and sills around the windows.

Q

Another item we want to touch on are the window of pleaks and shutters nick was kind enough to dig up.

Q

The application from about 10 years ago that john referenced, showing the signs of.

Q

Some sort of mill, work and shutters on the original structure. What we'd like to do is get at.

Q

Least, a portion of the commission over there for a site walk at some point in the near future. We.

Q

Intend to remove the molding and shutters on one of the near near windows on ground floor.

Q

And take a good look at things and determine what would be an appropriate a pleat for those.

A

Let's see here some other modifications, you'll notice, towards the end of your package on.

Q

Sheet sheet a 2.2, we have shown a impediment option on the main entry door.

Q

Off the side of the building.

Q

Oh, yes, it's actually 2a 2.2, so it'd be the second second sheet in there.

Q

What you'll also notice in the west proposed elevation, you'll notice, the oculus skylight.

Q

As well as a glass ridge skylight on uh the ridge of the addition in the rear.

C

Oh on the bridge of the building, yes,.

Q

And so the intent for that is uh to bring light into the attics, which is now attic.

Q

Space um which will serve as a office and work space for the owner of the property up there.

E

I didn't see a detail for the oculus. What what actually are the side walls.

E

And there's a glazed dome, so it would be a glazed dome. um The side walls would likely be.

Q

Copper or metal um certainly open to suggestions of copper.

H

Seven feet wide correct is that traditional size for an oculus? I don't know what I know.

H

I haven't got my oculus. I have my mentions here.

F

um I don't know pretty big. I think that daniel street's close to that six seven feet 129.

I

The couple that I've seen framed out I've only seen fragments of them not seen in the whole one.

I

Put together but they were about six foot. Did you say this is seven or six seven seven feet.

Q

On sheet a 1.3, you can get an idea of the size of it and scale the roof and also there's an.

Q

Outline showing where it is in proximity to the loft office space, as well as that uh stair tower.

C

Can we concentrate right now on the additions and the changes you're making on the back.

C

For that chief street and then some of us can make comments on the windows and door treatment. Sure.

Q

So, on shafe street, um what you'll see is 3d one I'm on 3d1, I'm looking at the axiometric views.

Q

But we can jump to the elevation, so we can.

A

See and propose: oh yeah, it's up front, you have it. You do yeah move up through there. Oh.

Q

Yeah, so what you'll see is the the footprint of the structure? That's there today.

Q

Is the same as it is proposed essentially what's happening? Is the garage entry and the uh civilian.

Q

Entry have flip-flopped right now the garage is located on the right-hand side as you look at it.

Q

From view two, um and they propose to flip that as that's a nice area with light coming in through.

Q

The uh are these all proposed, or they existing and proposed. These are all proposed on this page.

Q

On the blank wall that you see on shafe street view one um right now, there are two false windows.

Q

um With shutters applied you on the same sheet, 3d one, yes, upper, left, lower right.

E

Lower right, yeah yeah existing has two applied uh shutters: false false windows, those go away.

Q

You'll notice in the bottom left chief street view two up above the garage doors.

Q

uh Small dormer, um with a small roof addition above to serve uh the second floor space.

E

So the big shed's new, the small sheds new and the elevated portion of the edition's new.

E

All right coming down.

Q

And I think, if you jump ahead to a 1.3, the roof plan, you get an idea of.

Q

Yeah, the stepping of the roofs and and how that's all integrated, essentially what's new, would be.

Q

That oculus moving page south the shed dormer um that next hip roof with the ridge skylight, would.

Q

Be new in the small small gable dormer there and then the rest of that structure is as it exists,.

Q

Today, with the addition of the standing seam roof above the pedestrian entry, on the right hand, side.

C

It seems very complicated the roof plan, but I'm not saying that no.

C

I wouldn't want a roofing I wouldn't want to maintain it either.

Q

If you jump ahead, one more sheet to a 2.1 you'll see a small.

Q

Scale existing in the top left-hand portion of the page and proposed is down below.

Q

But there's some movement of windows, some get mulled together with new.

Q

Fenestrations and then again, the garage door and the pedestrian entry flip flop.

C

Let me just ask the the the board: um are we still insisting on a space in between.

C

Our windows yeah, I was gonna, say normally just the three windows sort of mold together. So.

D

Closely would really bother me have a stud pocket in between the windows, because when they're molded.

Q

Together, they're very tight, like you see a three and a half or two by four small in between yeah.

D

Especially as an addition to such a very not the traditional traditional.

A

Yeah you show that separation on uh a21.

B

Number three drawing up in the north elevation number: three, where you see it in the.

A

The dormer in the dorm room, yeah, that's right.

A

That's the looking one yeah to the door, but not on the second floor.

F

A

Keep going yeah keep on going, oh you're done yeah well, who's who's keep going.

Q

If you have another comment on that elevation.

E

Keep going shane, okay, we'll uh jump over to the.

Q

South proposed um looking up top top right being existing, uh we can come back.

Q

To the window treatments, I think it's clear what numbers are here same page same page.

Q

You'll see the oculus on the main ridge of the bottom right masonry, building.

Q

With two low profile skylights, those essentially are just an inch or two above above the new roof.

Q

As far as profile there and the roof is it, is it still flow post late? Yes, synthetic slate.

Q

But not not the wedge. We just had right. No okay,.

Q

I didn't catch which brand that was don't worry about that I'm not going to. I will not go looking.

A

I

I'm sure that I'm just losing my but but I see on the self-proposed this is silly, but I see.

I

Vertical lines, what am I looking at on the right on on the I see that that that line about two.

Q

Feet from the yeah sure from the party there's also one under the other wind, the the file of.

I

The right-hand side of the file of windows- I don't know what those lines are. Why am I looking at them.

E

There is a good question I think he's trying to shadow in the back of the building where it.

E

Steps in I don't know something dragged from the front to the back. It looks like the same thing so.

I

We're not to worry it's not on there. No, that's! That's! Not an intense expansion, joint or any sort.

Q

Of break point in the facade: well, it could be, um you know, a radon ventilation tube going up. I.

Q

Think what it is like feeling better nick touched on is that's the alignment of the uh the addition.

Q

On to the rear of the structure, if you look up there, us the alignment of the shadow on the left.

I

Thank you, and so on the uh clobbered building. What you'll see is removal of those two small windows.

Q

That flank the patio doors expanding that patio door to a triple and then on the lower region.

Q

Enclosing what is now the patio and incorporating it into what will be the.

Q

The kitchen area, can I ask how those three doors work on the second floor of the accordion or yeah.

Q

um One is fixed, two are fixed and the middle is a operable door. Yeah.

A

Yeah, you see the slightly uh the line dashed line in the center.

D

um Yeah, that's it.

D

I don't know how other people feel about that, but I I feel like it's um think the intention there is.

Q

Looking out into that garden, um a lot of natural light comes in from from that.

Q

That side and it's also the desirable view, while you sit in the kitchen looking out into that space.

Q

What do you mean on the ground? You don't like it on the ground? Is it both the whole facade? I think.

C

But you must admit you know it does follow your guideline of looking very modern.

I

Anyone else puzzled as to why we're removing the mid-century uh trim off the old building to.

I

Make it look more federal and removing the arched door openings garage, but I was trying to make it.

C

You know federal to get to that next because there's a lot of discussion. I feel on that, but.

C

It's possible that this is the time. Well, it's the same. It's the page, we're looking at as well yeah.

C

This is the time um we've. All some of us have been doing. Some research and reagan has some.

D

Well, my my office back in 2009 did the survey of up and down state street um in. I forgot why the.

L

State's reproject, probably yeah yeah state street improvements, and so I just printed out from that.

D

This was even before my time I wasn't there, but um if anybody wanted to look just a just a brief, I.

O

Gave a copy just just a brief history, description and the building that we came up with it's nothing.

D

That is really going to affect any of this project. It just gives you some more background.

D

And helps to determine that at least you know that it was built around 1835.

D

And seems to have been built as an expansion of a shop that was there previously.

D

And so was not necessarily built as a residential structure. Originally.

A

But then was used as one obviously it was turned into a boarding house um has been done.

D

A lot of stuff, that's very interesting, yeah boarding house and we figured out it was the.

D

Gurney photo from 1902 that shows these crazy window headers and shutters and all that stuff. So.

D

So it is at some point in the in the 19th century. Those were added, it likely was not original again.

D

Because it wasn't a residence and it was just kind of a simple shock um yeah, that's awesome for your.

E

Client yeah and resource, so I guess it's really uh up to us to really decide is.

C

Do we want to maintain something that could possibly have been added in 1850 or 60 or 70.

C

The you know the window trim heads and there was a lot of that going on, because I noticed that the.

C

Pierce block, um which is to the left-hand side of the app and then at one time. That was all added.

C

Yeah, these are the pictures that went here that was from 2009.

D

Yeah, unfortunately they're from 2009, but they do show that.

C

um Those window heads and the picture from 1902 does show those window heads which the.

C

Greek revival, door, which to me seems very appropriate for.

C

This structure, I don't know why that would be. You know such a demand. It takes all the things.

C

What's going on so you have a building that has an expression almost a folly to it believe it or not.

C

That is an architectural term and you want to just go back to a stern federal puritanical. Look but.

C

So these are the questions we should be talking about right now. Other people should be talking.

A

B

I was hoping for more evidence stronger evidence of the window headers. um I I'm not sure how I come.

B

Down on those, um but the one thing I know for certain is that I did not approve the evidence.

A

1902 yeah, I would keep them if you know this just makes me think that I would keep them, but.

C

The skylights I could not see given that there weren't any skylights and there's they're newly.

B

Cut in I, I can't see us approving that I I can't approve that and in terms of the oculus.

B

If you're going to do an oculus at least do something one, that's it's got some historic.

B

Qualities to it right now it looks very flat. It looks. uh It looks like a drum with.

B

And you can't see what's above the drum uh it should have at least a dome on it.

B

It should be more classical in in nature. um I know it's further up on the peak and everything, but.

B

Yeah, it just doesn't look right right now. How do you spell oculus, oculus, lus.

Q

We wanted to show it and get some feedback on it. So I think that's that's good information for.

Q

Us to take home do some more, do some more homework and uh figure out how it should.

Q

Really take its form because I think it's a it's a really cool feature and- and uh it's.

Q

Neat that there's a couple in the city right now it would be awesome. It should be scalable.

D

I actually think the design of it is currently is interesting, and it makes it clear that it's.

D

Not a historical piece, although what was there discussion last time of having evidence that.

D

There was an oculus up there: no okay, not in that building dave seems to remember one when he put.

I

The when he did the staircase yeah um there were pieces, it was not outside of my area of operation.

I

But there were there were holes and- and I could see some space up above and I beard a little bit.

I

And saw pieces that I was certain were part of a like. I say about a six foot diameter oculus. They.

I

Were boarded on the inside and the boarding because of the attic nature of it uh was.

I

Whitewashed um they weren't curved boards. There was nothing truly elaborate about it. It was a.

I

Way to get light into a hallway, it was it had all of a architectural charm of an of a lamp shade, a.

I

Big lampshade that was set with the pieces in a circle. They were slightly tapered, um but there.

I

Was no hole in the roof, there was not a great deal of light and I was getting paid to do a staircase.

I

I don't know if any of you ever tried working for jay smith, so you didn't notice that the framing.

C

Was headed off the uh any any purlins or anything? I I have no comments to make about the framing at.

I

All sorry I I should have paid more attention. We all should have better in those days. Let's go in.

E

Let's get in daniel street yeah, I mean right there. I think I think it would be worth looking at some.

D

Examples around both here and maybe elsewhere, but I don't know I mean I actually think the simple.

D

Nature of it makes it lower profile so that you wouldn't necessarily notice it as much walking.

D

Down the street and it and it's clear that it is a modern um in the 19th century there was.

I

Very few very, very little curved glass yeah and I don't recall any metal mullions, so it had to.

I

Be wood and it had to be flat pieces of glass, and the truth is when I looked at the drawing.

I

Never having been tasked to make one, but I looked at that and said: that's what they probably look.

I

Like they're pretty nearly flat and the glass is pitched enough to get the water to run off it.

I

With this- and you said, this glass would be very slightly domed, so it wouldn't yeah so just shed.

Q

Water yeah, my my concern is that it doesn't end up like looking like a piece of mechanical equipment.

A

True yeah save that for the restaurants yeah there we go yeah.

E

This is definitely innovative and new, so you're you're not wrong. It needs to work.

E

So I I was going to suggest when you're done.

E

That you ask him for a detail on that. Just that feature, so it can be clearly red, yeah.

Q

We can do that, so I think your idea of removing one of these decorative headers and.

C

At least getting a chance to look at the greek revival.

C

Would over the the door um would give us a chance to you know, judge the age of everything.

C

And if they were in there in 1902, I mean I know that these ones that are on there.

C

Now are all new, yes, yeah, they're, all new, going back to an approval that we gave in.

B

Well, there would have been a lentil yeah, but you you could see in the images from 2011 that.

E

There was something big on there before bigger than just a month, but it seems hard to believe.

E

From this, because he's ever would have been on there for a saddlery shop right, so it's really.

E

Like john said, do you want them or not, so you can go either way.

D

And yeah- and I think you know, made a good point. Like historic windows, I mean you've got a building.

D

Six over six windows, but it has its 1875 two over two. Either option is valid for that.

D

For generally for and speaking for that building, because it's part of that history.

D

So I think you could kind of make the argument to go either way with these.

Q

Yeah, I think we, I think we do a site, walk, we'll evaluate one of them and.

Q

And talk with the owner about feasibility of uh keeping them if we deem them appropriate or or.

C

Not what is the problem with them like that? I just think I just think there's a lot going on on the.

Q

Facade right now and it's almost overdressed, he said it was it tarted up the building. Oh.

A

That's right, that's an architectural term. I don't think so. um Was there also some discussion about.

C

Continuing the horizontal line, or did I hear that wrong you what you were examining the.

C

Horizontal material, that's between the first and second story in the second third story,.

Q

Yes, so we referenced in the details for the header and sills, it calls out stone.

Q

And one topic of discussion was match that material that you see on state street, that.

Q

Separates the floors on that facade and utilize that stone for headers and sills, I think dave.

Q

May have thrown out there that it was brownstone. We've got somebody looking into exactly what it is.

A

There are plenty of brown stuff yeah. I would have thought it might have been.

C

More, I thought it would be marbled, but it's not structural. You think it's brown.

H

No obviously, building next door has some brownstone elements carved into it.

I

I I'm not certain and it turns out over time. I don't think no, that anybody ever cut one of these.

I

Into an existing building, it's not impossible, but I've never heard of that, but over time different.

I

Materials, different kinds of stone were available and easily handled and blah blah blah, and the idea.

I

Of painting a brownstone white like there's on the building next door, uh it's pretty common stuff.

E

It is yeah you're right. um I've always thought that these were uh marble. I did too yeah, but I.

A

Don't know what happened, it seems a little early for brown stone, but maybe sure you wouldn't use.

E

That on this windows windows, would you so you'd? I wouldn't use it. You know I. I don't think I would.

A

Wouldn't use a precast brown yeah. What we could find what we could source would be a precast that.

Q

Would be a match, would it be structural if you cut it you're cutting it in over the windows. Is that.

C

I mean they're, not they're, how deeply you cut it yeah this.

A

Yeah, I know it that sounds awful scary to me, but you know. That's me.

Q

It certainly can be done yeah. The brick will hold themselves in place.

I

For a little while gonna do it quick hurry up get to the next one.

I

Gotta keep moving, get them moving. Well, they actually did that. What used to be.

C

The restaurant fat belly exactly yeah, they did every winter granite granite. They were all wood.

A

All right, what do we got? Oh yeah, what do we have.

I

I'm excited about the oculus just because it's a feature that we have almost it's almost extinct in.

I

Town, the skylights at the ridge line in the back. I don't think what were there being on a modern.

I

Piece of construction, I don't think that they're really offensive in their location.

I

uh The ones on the front facade, I think, are I'd like to think are unnecessary. That's what I'd like.

I

Very low, so they would be low on the floor plan. Also, you know they wouldn't be far off the floor.

E

Is the backing? What is that thing? So the two skylights on state street would uh provide.

Q

Light to the bedroom on the third floor, so it'd be a vaulted ceiling in that area, as opposed to.

Q

Lighting the loft in the attic- oh, I see yeah. That makes sense. That makes a lot more sense.

A

Yeah, you know foot off the floor right. uh May I just certainly I think we had talked about the.

A

Elevation differences for us, the west facade as well as the headers. I really do prefer the.

A

Proposed version, I think the existing trim uh seems inappropriate for the shape of that gable.

A

It seems overwrought to me I like the simplicity of almost like something being proposed. Yeah.

A

It's just it's out of place to me almost what she do. You want heights, a 2.2, okay,.

F

um Yeah, I think the skylights on state street might be a little too much.

F

uh Just because that is the most prominent side of the house, obviously being on the main street.

F

And then having those skylights right there um I mean you'd, see them before into the oculus.

F

But I don't think that would be very genuinely historic visa flight really flat skyline yeah.

L

They're not there, I'm not even sure that they're visible yeah, because there's that picture the.

F

Picture, if you take a walk around the state street from the other side of or the sidewalk across the.

Q

Street you look down, you'll, see one or two other other homes very similar to this they're very.

Q

Low profile, it's the lowest, you can buy money's no object. I imagine it's an inch an inch above.

Q

uh Finished roofing, I bet you won't find one in portsmouth. No, because everybody uses the vehicle.

E

They're, like three and a half there's nothing else, although the neighbors are pretty, are pretty low.

Q

Profile, well, maybe you should not for martin's sake, but the rest of them bring in a sample.

H

Virgin roof or clean roof, that is traditional architecture of those.

H

Buildings and it's just it's like putting a roof deck on.

E

They're going to do a slate roof, where you don't have one now, which is a huge enhancement not to.

E

Speak for him, but anyway, I'm making a generalized argument about how I feel about skylights yeah. I.

F

Mean I guess, if they're low profile, you wouldn't be able to see them from that side of the street.

F

The other side of the street yeah more more, but maybe not so you know what I mean like it might.

F

Not be that it's prominent that I'm thinking in my head, yeah we'll get you a sample and show you I'll.

Q

Show you some some photos in context, and maybe this architect can render something from the other.

E

Side of the street looking down the box, I'm going to make a generalization that skylights to me.

C

Don't mean anything meaning you're, not you're, not worried about it. I'm not worried about them.

C

And with a very slight pitch like that,.

C

If you took that line of that roof and brought it down, it would come down into the middle of the.

C

Building across the street, that's what I'm saying you never stand on a step left. Well, actually, the.

C

People in the second floor of the buildings across the street- I don't know what I'm saying is that.

B

Yeah yeah where's where's that photo and that will give them the idea all right screen there with a.

E

Snow guard below it you'll never see it. Yeah put snow guards you're going to have to anyway.

C

Just don't put any uh solar panels solar panels on top of the skylight all right. This is fun. huh Okay,.

I

We're devolving properly yeah, so it seems to me, we've discussed everything I think we've covered.

Q

All yeah so um sight walk yeah, so I need to have that establish a date uh for a sidewalk and a few.

C

More together with mick and he'll get together, but we need to have at least half of us at this site.

C

You know we've done one or two-person sidewalks. uh We should all get that hdc logo.

A

But you know we noticed she's wearing her if you were pushing that hard. Another banner downtown.

C

Because we've been talking about our own helicopter.

I

We can do that oculus survey with it. Thank you for devolving again. Some people use drones. We need.

C

Helicopters, um so uh I guess you'll be back next month: yeah yeah right, we'll be back next month.

Q

I will have some colorized renderings for you and thank you and some samples all that good stuff.

Q

I think we're getting that getting to a point where we're going to start.

A

All right, I kind of have it.

E

All right talk to me tomorrow. Very good machine need a motion. Yeah continue. It yeah. I guess we.

C

Need a motion potion to continue second to uh in favor to april date, certain. So anyone watching.

E

Those next months, all right, thank you, you've got it all right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

A

See, oh yeah, this is working. Can you already read that I I already read this one.

C

No, I didn't, I got stopped. Luckily, I think reagan poked me in the rib.

C

So now we have a work session requested by working stiff properties, llc.

C

Owner for property located at 92 pleasant street, where permission is requested to allow renovations.

C

To an existing structure, replace windows and storm windows construct an iron balcony.

C

And replace two windows with balcony doors, as for plans on file in the planning department,.

C

Said property is shown on uh assessor map. 107 76 lies within the character district 4.

C

Downtown overlay and historic district and who could be here to present it.

O

Okay and here's my screen.

O

So we were here last month and we talked about.

O

uh Changing out windows and residing our building at 9294, pleasant street.

O

um And uh also trying to get you to wrap your head around a balcony in the back, so.

O

So that's our building there on the left there uh by the yellow fire hydrant. You know where that is.

O

You can advance I'm trying else good this. Is it yeah, there's a good one from that one. So.

O

There it is, and that's pre-solar panels, that's right after we bought the property in 2015.

O

And so here are a couple of um shots from the athenaeum. I love going to.

O

The f and am because everybody loves to help you find pictures.

O

And so you can see the original row house that you have set up there. um So was there.

C

Any way that um you had thought about um this, what is it the bowling frog? What is it.

O

Oh now, it is oh. What is that? Where are you seeing that she has it under the bearings theory salon.

C

Yeah, um so I mean you haven't presented any plan at all here you are doing a major renovation and.

C

You haven't presented a plan for this storefront. Is there any way that you would consider.

C

That you could put it back like that and not have a storefront.

D

Maybe they like the store this one? Well, maybe you like norfolk, I don't know we don't.

O

Let us have residential on the first floor right, there's the rub right so um right.

L

I would love to know marshall recording yeah. I would love to have it, but there is.

O

Yeah yeah, so I think that's the reason that it got changed to the way that it is john.

N

Is it someone? No? No? No? No! No! No! This was a barber shop. When I was a little kid yeah.

N

Well, before the clip joint yeah yeah, so you mean it was housed before oh right, yeah, yes,.

O

It was, it was through that original door when it was out, so I can't remember: okay right.

O

Commercial space is actually in that right-hand window. That's between the two doors, yeah right.

A

There right and the and then the next door over is not part of our property right. I understand.

C

Yeah, that was gallagher's sporting goods all right should we move on like moving on.

F

So- and we already talked about so matt talked about siding, that's your department right.

N

Yeah so essentially we're gonna there's two layers of siding on the building. It's an aluminum coil.

N

Stock wrap over the, I believe, it's the original pine side and we've peeked under and actually.

N

Some of the pint siding looks in decent shape above my, but I also think that that's the side.

N

That gets the least amount of sun and weather. So I'm sure when we start peeling the rest of.

N

It off it's going to be a disaster, so the plan is to take it all the way down to the sheathing.

N

Insulate with mineral wool and then put real wood, clapper siding back on and I had brought some.

N

Samples last time and we will bring them back to the official hearing. But one um was a clap class.

N

Cedar collaborate, siding which tends to have that little rounded edge and the other was the.

N

Wood clappered mill, pine siding, which is still available, radially sawn, and it has that crisp.

N

Sharp edge, which you will find on all these old historic buildings, which we would use.

D

Yeah, maybe this is a question for later, but how are you going to.

D

Just uh coordinate this with the rest of the building, like are you gonna,.

D

If, if nothing happens next for a while.

P

And so, unfortunately, unless we come up with 6.8 million dollars,.

N

We don't have any control over the point just to the right of the.

N

New salon, this would just put like a j channel or something to connect. Well, I talked about just.

N

Breaking back all of the siding yeah in smaller amounts so that it's randomly broken back and.

N

Then putting a vertical board there until the other half of the building gets done and then.

N

And talk to peter flores people about feathering that all back in but their approvals are kind.

N

Of different than what we're asking for like, for example, they don't really have a window specific.

N

Window perfume like we're proposing what we're proposing is green mountain windows, what they.

N

Proposed was to replace or to match existing and they've got a bunch of final windows in there. Oh.

N

They can't they can't do that. So no! Well, I would like to think okay, you don't have to you, have to.

C

Think not like that which one the center doorway. No, that's! No! That's the purple floor. So the center.

C

Door belongs to flora. Yeah. Yes, are you talking about the far right? Yes, yes, yes yeah, you can see.

N

The brick just to the left of that blue trim is that your property line? Yes, so that's a firewall.

C

That goes all the way up to the underside of the roof. I don't know how that came out. Yeah.

A

Interesting, okay, so you can explain it, and so here you can see some of the old collaboration.

O

Of the building that we don't own so we've we talked about restoring the window trim.

N

Too, because, except for the two lower windows and advance the slide, we have to.

N

Think we'd have to go back. No, no. I have more slides how about this yep there we go. That's the.

N

Window, okay, but that's not the one I was referring to, but anyway, so it when they do the metal siding.

N

I'm being redundant, I said all this at the last meeting, but for those of you who weren't here.

N

um They cut the sills off to match the trim of the aluminum they on to only two windows.

N

Did they not do that all the rest? I have a method and a plan to repair that so that the.

N

Sill has the same thickness extends to the edges of the casing. So, where the way it's supposed to.

N

It's very common, so I mean we were all there because reagan and I were you guys, were zooming.

A

In yeah we were zooming in here, and um so I think that the main contentions that we had.

C

We have obviously no problem with you removing the aluminum. We obviously have no problem with you.

C

You were going to look at the third story windows. You know and see. um They're rounded,.

C

Or not whatever, and um so um you're not apparently you're not going to do the storefront you're just.

C

Going to let it sit there with the glass blocks, which is where am I going uh well there's because.

O

We didn't have these slides before those are the horribles. We were talking about very yeah in that.

C

Style of building, so um the problems that we had were with the replacement of all the windows.

C

Versus restoring and putting new storm windows on and the other problem was taking two windows out.

C

And putting in patio doors on the second floor with a balcony, so I think that that's what we.

C

Should be talking about so if you'll advance another one, I just wanted to make one point.

N

uh When answering john's summary is that the six dormer windows yeah are all like a cheapo, no.

C

So you're gonna replace those, so those would be all new construction yeah. The idea would be new.

N

Construction, green mountain windows and hence our desire to use the green mountain everywhere. We'd.

N

Really like to eliminate the storm windows yeah, if you can advance one more we'll look right, I think.

O

Nope, I guess we went too far too far. Go back. Some people just go too far. All of our balconies.

O

um Here so um walk through the south end. What's that um so that you could so there are a lot of.

O

Houses with um replacement windows so replacement one, but with the small mountains and no storms.

O

You know so you get the energy efficiency and I think it looks better without.

O

The storm there are things um called inside storms too, that you can purchase.

C

So uh what was suggested and um would be to have mr adams has volunteered.

C

To just go inside, if you would take him in at an appointment.

C

And look at the window sure and try to determine the age of these women.

C

So I think they may be the original original to that yeah. So we had so that's our suggestion for.

C

The windows at this point before we come before before we go okay yeah, so we did. I.

N

Think I discussed this at the last meeting that we had luka celebic in there. Who is the new report.

N

Restoration specialist, he did the one side we are not. We are not advocating for the green mountain.

N

Windows, because there's any sort of savings um we could actually do it for less if we restored them.

N

And put the storms back on, but it's sort of tied into some of my comments earlier in the evening.

N

I'm always uh interested in trying to get energy efficiency to a maximum. This building without.

N

Any insulation in the walls costs about 900 a month in the middle of winter to heat, with the.

C

Gasoline still not warm and it's well, it's some places. It's too warm, um but so insulating the.

N

Building, of course, will help, but if we still have those large window weight pockets around.

N

Each window we're fighting a bit of a losing battle, you're always going to have drafts and.

N

So there are any types of balances that oh yeah, one of the places that I I'm with john on this.

I

uh Heel dragging uh but one of the reasons is john and I've been in the trades for some time.

I

And and we've seen an awful lot of new modern high efficiency windows just turn out to be.

I

None of those things and and really what we've seen an awful lot of people just throw away.

I

Sash that were perfectly serving their original purpose in their original style for things that.

I

Were going to be wonderful, that turned out to not be at all and, and it seems like in many cases it's.

I

Been a net loss to our architectural heritage, so I am going to drag my feet every time we talk have.

I

These conversations, okay, yeah and I'm afraid that there are other voices in you know also in that.

C

Vein um there are, you know, excuse me without being an antagonist. I will say that especially.

N

In light of what we've just seen with the firehouse okay and not a single original window,.

N

Left from that one okay, but on the two houses directly across the street, from our property.

N

One has green mountain windows and one has lucas uh restored windows. We understand that so thank.

C

You very much um what I want to say is that we look at each property differently and the the.

C

Fact that your building seems to have all of the original window seems to make sense that we should.

C

Be looking at these windows as far as savings as far as your your weight pocket is, is a very.

C

Good reason to to have replacement windows simply because you have that three inches. I know that.

C

And I also know that that those two iron weights in there are like radiators of cold.

C

Because when they get cold they're there they conduct heat and then you can heat up all you want.

C

You know, and you still got you know- 50 pounds of cold iron sitting there. I realize that, but you can.

C

Have if you found maybe another window person, you know balances that the windows slide up and down.

C

In you know, and they can be made out of a historic material like copper and be spring-loaded, and they.

C

Would allow the windows and, if you're, afraid, of the windows settling down there's little catches.

C

That you can, you know, you know, well sure you know all of this. Yes, okay, so there are alternatives. So.

C

If you want to, you know, put your heels into the ground, that's up to you and if we want to put.

C

Our heels in that's up to us well we're here, because we're trying to determine understand.

A

So but when you talk about the balcony and and that.

O

But it's related, so let me just I'm going to just say it one more time, so we could spend the same.

A

Amount of money to restore the windows and they could look beautiful and they're restored and.

O

Then you put a storm on the outside, I'm putting a storm on the inside. It's not! Maybe it's not a.

C

Strawberry bank people live in there. Maybe you could put a wooden storm on the outside.

C

Maybe you could put an inside storm, there are other alternatives. This is uh 20 22., I'm afraid.

C

There's a lot of alternatives. Maybe that's a good and there's green. That's a good opportunity for.

N

David to if he comes to the side and looks at the inside, we can talk about those alternatives.

N

Because I'm really not I'd rather not have them on the outside, but then there are so of the all the.

N

Windows on the outside, just to be clear, even those gable windows that we think are curved. Those are.

N

Also, not original those are rivco windows that someone cut a crescent and nail to the top. I.

C

Understand so so, we'll we'll still have a there'd, be a combination of those could be replaced right.

C

Right because there are modern windows, so just so that we would present it that way, yeah that.

C

Would be the way to do it for the hearing? Okay, so I mean let's talk about the balcony. Let's.

C

Anybody else jump on this balcony. Anybody, let me get down to see what have you added well.

E

Wait they might have something to say before. Have you added any more to the discussion with.

E

Your there's different images, yeah they've, got lots of photos yeah, but do you want to say a few.

E

Things before everybody before I'll talk to the images yeah yeah yeah, that's what I'm saying so.

O

Go ahead so advance to my first balcony image. If you would so that's sorry, I thought that cresting.

O

Okay, there's my pun, okay and um you gotta get the pun. So I took a nice walk.

O

And found balconies, and so here's a couple that are over um you know bay windows, which.

O

We are not there's a lovely one right there on market street um advance yep.

O

um And then I had a little with a little tip that I got. um I went walking down here and.

O

Here are some wrought iron balconies, um that's serious street. Yes, so there's two there's a lot.

E

Going on um yeah there they are and then uh with a fabulous one. Peter made those sorry keep going.

E

You want me to go to the next and then I don't think peter didn't think no. He was joking yeah.

E

He'd be pretty old and then um and just as a just to make the point that you know there is a pretty.

O

Strong tradition of these kinds of stacked, porches behind lots of buildings all along court street.

O

That are very visible from the side streets to because I didn't you know uh rogers street and all.

O

That um and then here is right here, also on series: a new 20th century 21st century balcony, with.

O

What do you call those the iron rockets that we would not want to use, but there's one right.

O

There on a collaborative building which is ours, is this your poco's or something that is.

O

No, this is but this was done in my time. Yeah sure you went over the restaurant right now.

N

Yeah, so here's the existing condition. So last time I said you know um it's not a lovely area.

O

It's the back of the building and as much as you can say. Yes, it shows to the court street.

O

It's very much the back of the building and nobody else has respected it very much. Look.

O

At all the electric lines and the chases and we've got a big cinderblock building for our.

O

Butter cinder block wall that the current owner was going to keep. So there's that that that l was.

O

Was original but only about half its length just flying and if you want to advance to the next.

O

um So here's just more details of that and then we had a lovely another utility pole put up so.

O

You know just to make the point that we're we're balancing all these things.

O

And you want us to look historic and lovely and then.

O

Just this onslaught of um stuff, um so if you would advance the next slide.

O

And so there's my little uh very quickly: photoshopped balcony up there.

O

um Just to add, perhaps to the visual noise to me, it doesn't there's so much visual noise.

O

Going on back there, it doesn't matter and if you'll advance to the next slide.

O

um One can do some make some choices with sort of a mid-tone. You know monochromatic.

O

Paint to sort of blend, all of it and all the chases matt talked about. We should put.

O

An application in for some sort of you know uh box around um the air conditioning mechanicals.

O

uh But there you know there is a way just simply with paint to try to minimize some.

O

Of that visual clutter, that's going on how deep is this? It looks like 18 inches.

O

uh No uh well from the it's perspective: what's it meant to be it's my five-minute, photoshop yeah, so.

O

You can we have the plans on here. So what is that supposed to be, and it used to be three.

C

Foot four inches, I think yeah the original, so you can see it probably yeah. You don't have to get a.

O

Chair and then that's the as is okay, I'm sorry there. It is better photoshop for the next.

O

Meeting yeah and there it is yeah so because we have the brand new uh pole that was put there.

E

It's in here right there yeah is there a cross section there. It is there. It is.

O

Yeah and then if and that was just a a file that matt had in his program.

O

But I have in subsequent slides I had some sample uh wrought iron like period iron railing. That's.

O

One of which is that railing is done by peter henley this one, let's stare at it.

C

One thing I would want you to check on is because this is a multi-unit building.

C

You might have to be at 42 unit 42 42 42, yes, 32 inches tall, which is quite.

C

Tall a lot more than what you're, showing on all of your diagrams, my understanding from.

N

Paul is that, because that's a residential unit, we could still get away with 36 inches.

N

High, but I doubt that I think it would be 42. if paul said that. Well I mean you know well.

E

Either, when you're on it, I don't think yeah, that's not very high.

C

All of the classic the rails that you see on these victorian buildings are all about this high right.

E

But most of them are juliette companies that you don't go out onto you. Put a potted plant out there.

N

They want to sit out there yeah walk from one door, then I don't know whatever.

E

It will be what it'll be if it'll be yeah. Martin, can I come here? uh Yes,.

B

I'm I'm just concerned you're showing you're showing a little garden rails.

B

That I think an applied one I could see possibly living with, but cutting open. The.

B

Cutting open these new door, two doors where there's windows and then to structurally.

B

Tie that back in could be a nightmare, and I just I can't support that. That would be too.

B

Major in alteration to that existing structure, but if you wanted to put some applied garden rail, you.

B

Know that you've shown a few examples of that's why I asked how deep it was, so you could open the.

N

Window and have that rail I I could just deform like a juliet yeah yeah. I couldn't that's what.

B

He's saying stomach that I think so do you want to? Can we go back and look at some of the character.

E

Photos is that do they help there were a lot of juliet balconies. Well, if you go, if you actually.

O

Go forward, okay, where to I mean you have to zoom out again you're sort of zoomed in.

O

Okay, yeah just keep going forward, and I had just so you can of see sample.

O

uh Yeah, so there's just different that actually is a to code, victorian style railing that first.

O

One that one can buy and there's other examples, so that's kind of time appropriate. I think for.

A

The building, possibly yes, so backing up to sort of this is the juliet balcony, and this is more.

E

This is more what you're targeting, even though it's deeper right, but you would at least in.

N

Your case, martin, you would support the one on the higher floor. No, I you know, but the that shows the.

N

Concentration to the windows, I just don't think that you can get the structural loads to meet code.

B

That to tie it back into an old structure like that, I don't think it's achievable, even if we.

A

Did 45 degrees? Oh there's no question in my mind. I could do it, but that's, but the the issue at large.

N

Here I think is, or the larger issue is, is the aesthetic will you accept the aesthetic yeah.

N

Let me worry about the structure I can make that happen. Yeah no yeah! I mean you are a contractor.

E

I don't know if everybody but he's in this thing, you're showing a web thickness of something like.

I

Six inch with a and that's with the ceiling and the floor, which means that we're looking at a four.

I

Inch core to it, uh I don't I agree with martin. It's going to be difficult to get that to work.

I

With a four-inch cool core, if you will cut out a plate from the side of the building and actually.

I

Break holes in the framing the continuous framing of your building and then take the ceiling.

I

Down and the build the room below it and run a couple of steel beams back. Yes, you could do it.

I

But by the time it gets outside it's going to be 12, inches thick and then nick's people are going.

I

To want you to put a 42-inch rail on top of that thing and all of a sudden you're at five foot, yeah.

I

Anyway, it's too much it's not a julia falcon anymore right. I like martin, I I I'm not offended.

I

By the idea of some wrought iron around it, it's a it's a just interesting side of a an interesting.

I

Building and doing a little something- uh I don't think it's a horrible thing to this. It's it's.

I

Not an architectural gem or an architecturally gem-like setting, but but once you get past that.

I

Aesthetic juliet thing it starts to get into you know putting bicycles and room for rotisserie and.

I

The lounge chair and all of a sudden I'm just like I don't want to do that to my town.

E

So what about something like like this, which has like an.

E

18-Inch projection: this is down series both right with one door.

D

About the aesthetics of it and not structure, um I have to say all of the ex examples that you've.

D

Shown here don't really support your argument for putting it on this building, because each of the.

D

Examples is very specifically set up, I mean like those are, those are fire escapes in the back for.

D

The units this thing is a brand new addition on the back buildings. There's new construction.

D

The other thing the other balconies are on bay windows, and things like that, so I just that's my.

D

Problem is that there's really not a good example. Historically of of this type of thing um on a wood.

D

Collaborative building the the the wrought iron ones and the brick buildings are beautiful.

D

And um but they're very appropriate to a brick building.

D

And so I just don't see how it fits on this particular collaborative building.

D

Again, I think that it, I could possibly be amenable to a like a short balcony type.

D

Type thing that has been discussed but um like a big one, that you set out on.

C

D

That becomes big and bulky. Well, it doesn't have to be. You don't have to.

C

Use four by fours and you don't you know you could make a more delicate wood, rail.

A

Okay, anybody else got any suggestions margo. My suggestion is that.

H

This is a simple structure.

H

That has had unfortunate things happen to it, but it is still a simple, delicate facade.

H

All of the utility poles and all the other stuff beside, and I think that if you took your idea.

H

Of painting and and cosmetically improving the situation as you have, it would do way more for the.

H

Enjoyment of this building than any balcony that you could put on, because I I think that.

H

It will go from looking like a mishmash of mistaken happenings to something that.

H

This is actually quite a cute building, if you could ignore this little part right here down here.

H

This this is, this, is original and and it's has proportion, and it has delicate little things to it.

H

That, I think, should be left as is and enjoyed, and I don't think, adding wrought iron railings.

H

And balconies and anything like that, is going to do anything for the historic nature. The historic.

H

Character of this building, the parts that are still left, which is close to three-quarters of it,.

C

Well-Spoken anybody else, yeah I'll, just just chime in and say that I agree. I think.

G

It's a simple building, but it's a it's a good building, it's a great building and I think adding.

A

Things that really don't belong there aren't going to enhance it. I think it's just better to to deal.

A

With what you have having been involved in both of the buildings across the street, that is such.

A

A busy corner, I can't imagine the functionality of that balcony because there's absolutely no privacy.

A

There it's a busy intersection, I I don't think it does service, we actually stay in there. So the goal.

O

Is function right, so the goal is function that would be really enjoyable to have an outdoor space.

O

On the second floor floor apartment, that's where we want to live, um and so it's you know, foreign.

O

Follows function and so then thinking okay! Well, if I want an outdoor space and to enjoy that my.

O

Property, downtown and I'll do all these lovely other historic things to restore the building.

O

It's sort of a give me, you know, I give you this, you give me that right, so I can enjoy the building.

O

And so yes and then so I'm not trying to enhance the back of the building. I'm saying there already.

O

Is a lot of visual noise, so I want this function, so how can I do that and minimalize and minimize.

O

Right that that effect on the back by you know monochromatic cleaning, that kind of thing, so I.

O

Definitely am not looking at the balcony as a way to make the building look better yeah. I understand.

A

The functionality of that space, I think how it would function for you, yeah yeah, no privacy, no.

G

Yeah but way better than being down in the parking lot. On the first floor,.

O

For sure yeah a little bit of a view of the pond and that kind of thing, so we we live. I've stayed.

O

There, but you know so I know that it's a nice view up there. One thing we have had discussions.

C

Of and actually a little bit tonight amongst ourselves is not every building is suited for.

C

Every task you know not every building is suited for a restaurant, for instance, or you know so. The.

C

Possibility that maybe this is not a building that has a second floor. You know spay outdoor space.

C

That's, for you know, a vote to come up with. um Does anybody else want to jump in on this or.

O

Nick, if you'll just forward to the, I think it's the last slide, we had sort of a plan b or plan c.

E

Last slide: yeah the historic rail. No, no. Actually, since you love storm windows, and you won't mind.

O

This um so go to the end yeah. So I'm keeping so if we replace the window but have it open in and then.

E

Is this the balcony window or like a glass glass, juliet balcony, I see the window as you have it.

O

Yeah so it's sort of a compromise, you know putting a low profile in swing, casement, you're, saying.

E

Because these are square where yours are yeah, so then the windows has.

D

The exact same window are you still thinking of putting in a door.

D

No, you do the same windows, two windows that open in and yeah or out. I guess.

C

So it looks just like a window yeah and it would swing in. We may yeah. We in one of the windows.

N

The the older, uh not the original windows, but the rifco like windows, the city inspector department,.

N

May want an egress window in one of those, and the only way to accomplish it is to use that.

C

That looks like the double hung. I think that you are going to have to have egress window so.

C

Regardless of us trying to save every window in the building, there will be some of them that.

C

Will have to be replaced with an egress just up on the third tell me: if they're changing aren't they.

C

Grandfathered there no they're not grant no, no when they go and remodel this building. The first.

C

Thing he's going to say is: where's the egress. Oh the second, in the good old days, roger used to let.

C

All of us get away with this sort of thing. The first and second floor windows are so large that.

N

The single piece of sash lifted up meets one secret, so it's the third store. The third story.

N

The third floor only where I might have to do one because there's a bedroom that has a dormer window.

N

And one of those gable windows and we can make the gable window meet egress by using that green.

N

Mountain casement that looks like a double hung, so those windows are what four point: seven square.

C

Feet: that's a big one and they're open thirty-two! No more than thirty seconds it.

O

Is hard to find on collaborative that's why you know to find one right in our own city in our.

O

Own historic district I was like boom there. It is you've allowed it in the past. Not you.

C

So I think um you know this is a very difficult situation um if you can, if.

C

You want to go with what you were suggesting and you know bring it up for a vote. You know.

C

Yeah I mean that that's really something like that, because there's a lot of disagreement.

C

I think flowing amongst us, yeah yeah, those that looks more like.

N

Did that show the basement looks like a double hung that I'm referring to yeah? I think no, I don't.

D

Want it no, but we you guys, are impressed. I mean we know that we've actually had. This just proved.

N

It for me on a project somebody brought a little vernon street about a year ago, yeah the edu yeah.

N

Great invention that they, I think so too, especially for trying to get out quick.

N

All right, okay, so you know I think we have so we're going to come and see you to look at the.

A

Windows yeah, you can yeah, so it sounds like it just. You should be looking at at best. Juliet.

E

Balconies not not table and chair balconies yeah and there's still people that don't want that. But.

E

I'm hearing some people willing to look at it right. You know I would be willing to look at.

A

Them a slightly smaller balcony. Okay, I'm not sure do you need two doors. Is that just something that.

C

You've come up with thinking that you need to well for a useful balcony to get yeah to get.

O

To really have a nice function and have a few people come out, I think walking out onto it. The.

N

Two doors gave you access to yeah. It wasn't going to be very deep because it's a juliet, maybe your.

E

In-Swing casements are going to work, so your openings don't get any bigger right. Yeah. You.

N

Would use the existing opening and then you just open the window, and you would feel like.

N

You're outside, but you're still standing on the floor. You can still put a bottle we're going to.

A

Yeah, either way we weren't going to change the opening, as you see it, from the outside yeah. The.

N

Door was going to fit, the opening gets bigger, the door is much smaller than that. Oh I mean it.

N

Would get taller yeah that's correct, but in terms of width it was going to remain the same.

N

So a fullback option! If you have a juliet balcony that you're not going out onto.

E

Is to have your casement windows in the window, openings not.

O

That yeah, that's exactly that's. Plan b, the door was the same height as the top of the windows.

O

They all line up because they're really tall right yeah. They had to open it up a lot right, but you.

O

Wouldn't see that because the balcony, that's right, the monochromatic idea is great. You know it's.

C

It's just, we only have a view of the color, I know, and it's going to be kind of a shame to see it go.

C

Around the corner and head down pleasant street and just stop, you know because well, who knows.

C

What's the color would be chosen for the other rest of the building, but celebrity that's just.

C

The way the building is and as a side note that that masthead, where the electricity comes in.

B

That's going to have to be moved if you're going to that's how oh yeah yeah, because it's too great.

O

Yeah no we've been battling with eversource for a month about other issues, and that was a.

N

Side mark, but I think we've been winning so far. I don't know we might have another one. If we really.

N

Wanted to clean it up, we have to go underground right, yeah, there's a win for you.

I

Yeah, so should we confer? How should we get in touch to set up an appointment, get in.

N

Touch with nick dude nick nick's, a solid guy here, okay, he'll drag me out. Wake me up.

I

Give me a cup of coffee drag me I'll, get you a coffee, don't come for the education.

A

We'll treat you at 70., okay. Thank you very much. Thank you.

C

Yes, this needs to be continued I'll move to continue to next month, just one second, okay,.

E

In case you need it well, I think we're good in case you need it.

O

But in case you need it we're doing it. You can always file for here we can change it.

E

To the public yeah, you can no you'll have to file. If you want a public hearing, yeah.

N

I know yeah and then this will just get withdrawn just in case we don't get it.

C

Have you ever gone on a a site walk with your slippers on that was mine.

I

Once only once only watch it, I need to vote on the yeah continuance.

C

I thought we just did, I don't think he did all in favor all right.

C

Okay, so we have one more workshop, yeah, sorry about the long wait.

A

We got a few hours for you guys, oh yeah. Thank you. I look at each rung individually.

C

We're losing somebody, um you guys have coffee coming right, yeah yeah, but it's just working.

A

Tonight all right, you're gonna, lose me too requested by marcus.

C

Located at 33 deer street, wherein permission is requested to allow renovations.

C

To an existing property extend third floor, decks, replace balcony, railings, light lighting and other.

C

Miscellaneous improvements, as per plan on file in the planning department, said, property is shown on.

C

Assessor map 119 as lot 1b lies within character, district 5, downtown overlay and historic districts.

C

Who is here to present this, I'm joshua butkus with the stefano mogul architects? Okay, because I'm the.

R

Owners of three deer street just to be familiar with the project here, we've got two buildings all.

R

Condominiums on deer street, there are uh retail commercial spaces above that and behind that are.

R

The condominiums behind the two buildings is a courtyard and a hotel at the back, so that first.

R

Page is just familiarizing you with the property on the second page, we're highlighting. So we have.

R

Two buildings: building uh a and building b um I'll start with building a so I'm building a we have.

R

Sort of a garden level, it's a little bit lower than building b, and what we're proposing here.

R

Is to replace what is some trellis work that is either enclosing some hvac spaces or beautifying.

R

The concrete retaining wall at the garden level, we have two different strategies. There we'd like to.

R

Apply horizontal boards to the retaining wall at the garden level to beautify that.

R

uh Create a nicer looking space for the tenants below and then use vertical boards um at the.

R

Mechanical spaces underneath the decking um for hiding the hvac space. There's some storage space.

A

In there yeah, what should you learn? Oh she, too. Okay, yeah, just tell me when to advance.

R

So, second sheet sheet tube uh building a is what I'm referring to now and then using a.

R

Similar strategy on building b um using those horizontal boards, as you can see in the top.

R

Two images so the far left images the existing the image to the right of that is the new image.

R

And we're showing those horizontal boards being applied to behind that our existing concrete.

R

Retaining walls- and the idea here is just to dress up the tent and outdoor spaces, give it sort of a.

R

Nicer more residential feel: does anybody have any questions on that before I move to the next sheet.

R

Great painted painted boards actually we're looking to do something. That's a little bit more.

R

Long-Lasting and lower maintenance, so something like an azek.

R

An asex board with a permanent color yeah, exactly and you'll tell us what color eventually precisely.

H

We've got some samples on our specification sheet at the end. Okay, all right so moving on to the next.

R

Sheet, um I'm going to start in the top left here, just easier on the page, so at the front of the.

R

Building on deer street, there are examples of existing ceiling treatments. Again, this is um an.

R

Azek board: that's meant to look like natural wood and so they'd like to replace the ceilings at the.

R

Rear balconies, in this case we're looking at an hvac balcony. It's not actually a habitable balcony.

R

With that board and then trim wrapping that to match existing, as seen on the front of the.

R

Building and around other spaces on the building, on the right hand, images those two top end images.

R

That's the back of building a building, a has a longer balcony that stretches all the way across.

R

Both the second story and third floor, so we'd like to do similar ceiling treatments there as well.

R

Anybody have questions there before I move to the next sheet.

R

Right um so we are on sheet four of seven now so we're back on at the top left at the front of the.

R

Building so uh there are balconies running across the front of the building. um They would like to.

R

Reduce the overall footprint of the actual balcony decking, so it actually kind of hides from view.

R

A little further, it's not it's a great looking system that they have there know, so they want to.

R

Beautify that and then they want to upgrade um the railings there, so we're actually going to replace.

R

Not exactly what's what's it that balcony, but there is an existing railing on site. We have in.

R

The specifications it's very very similar and has a slightly more high quality, look and a classic.

R

Look to it, we do have a white option and a black option, but here we're showing white option so.

R

That's the front of the building and the top right images were showing the rear of the building same.

R

Exact thing just replacing the existing railings and upgrading those both in quality and value.

C

So this is this regal aluminum white railing, so it has a very small corner. Doesn't it it's like a two.

C

Two inch square corner, it's small, it's definitely smaller than the wood posts. That's currently there.

R

Yeah yeah, so um that kind of thing you know, is always an option for balconies we're going back to.

I

It's still running the last wow: okay, okay, uh keep going quick, little design, shirt on the preview.

R

All right, I'm gonna move it. It's a pro bono donation delivered to the next sheet.

R

So at rear and these I'm going to address the top two images on the right right now, so that rear.

R

Balcony I was talking about on the third floor. That runs all the way across. This is building a.

R

um The client would actually like to extend that three feet so they'd like to take that.

R

Whole balcony and pull it out away from the building three feet. At the second floor, you.

R

Can see, there's some entrances, there's stairways going up about a half flight to some decks. There.

R

What they like to do is they'd like to bring that third floor balcony out. To that same extent,.

R

So the posts carry from the garden level up to that third floor. um The idea here is to both.

R

Give some a little bit more outdoor living space and and some coverage uh to the second floor. Entry.

R

um And that will go in line with the replacement of the balconies, uh the railings along that.

R

Balcony and the same ceiling treatments underneath any questions on that. You don't think that's.

I

Heading into motel, 8, sort of territory, who is this rotisseries and something out of them.

N

No, I mean it's, uh it is a very communal public space there, every single unit across.

R

That back there does have balconies. As you can see from the images. There is very little.

R

um Storage, I don't know what the you know, what the rules are, what people are allowed to have on their.

R

Balconies and whatnot, but it is, it is kept clean and and nice looking and the idea is just to give.

R

A little more space and beautify that a little further and if you carry it up to the next floor,.

I

What happens so you're gonna be using that same sort of.

I

Brown plastic ceiling material, correct three feet: wider is the lower deck out that three feet now.

I

It is isn't it the the lower on the second floor, you're, referring to the second floor, decks where.

R

Those entrance stores are there, isn't any decks on the first. That's not a deck. On the first.

R

Floor with the railing on it, there were petty officers. Yeah you actually looked down into a.

E

Hole there dave yeah, I see yeah. Yes, that's all the protection that looks down into the garden level.

F

It's a landing exactly those are landings you can see underneath interesting. Yes,.

I

All right, thank you, so yeah, it's just that third floor. That's being so, if you approve this david.

C

What you're wasting this time, this side of the building you'd have to be in the.

F

Sheraton courtyard right to see yes, yes, exactly yeah! This is completely off the street yeah.

R

Yeah, it's only uh the front balconies that I address where we're actually kind of pulling.

R

Back the actual decking too, so when you're on the sidewalk level, you will see the railings.

R

But you won't even see the the top decking or the waterproofing doing that that will be pulled back.

R

So I'm going to move to the next sheet, if everyone's okay with that, so here we're just.

R

Showing um the specifications what we're proposing um top left, that's our uh the ceiling boarding.

R

Top right, that's that white railing option bottom right: we've got our timber tech, so.

R

These are the timbertech azac that we were talking about. um We like to do something.

R

Two-Tone, so we give both some contrast um to help for the the stairs and tracks are screwing them.

C

Are you screwing through the material just wondering? Are you putting the little clips.

C

In that hole that I haven't actually covered that with the client, that's current assumption.

R

Would be face screwing, given the just the amount of it that's going on and what we're using for it.

E

Did you ever look at a black railing? We did and we have that as an option in here as well.

R

Oh, it is okay, yeah, it's at the last sheet. Yes, on the next sheet, we.

R

So top left we have some lighting, so we have both decorative lighting and floods.

R

They'd like to replace all the existing locations on the building with those um and then.

R

um Bottom right, there's some pavers there, where there's there's possibility for um addition of.

R

Scope in that garden level, or repairing some of the papers that are down there in kind and on.

R

The left here um showing some planters and I can go back to a previous sheet, but they.

R

Have uh we've outlined on the sheet where we may want to dress up some of those outdoor garden.

R

Level spaces these the pavers that you've used outdoors. Well, you really want plastic papers. These.

R

Are these aren't the current pavers and they're not even sure, if they're going to be changing.

R

That out, we just had it in our scope, because it's one of the options that they're looking at.

R

Doing but currently it's not: where would that go that would go with the car so at the garden level.

R

Yep, exactly um meaning this lower level, the lowest level yeah. So if you go to the concrete.

R

Floor is that white. It is currently pavers if you go to sheet two of seven top right images.

R

And zoom in you can see like where that lattice work has been highlighted. Red.

R

Through the snow there you can see some pavers there yeah um and that's actually the area. Mr.

I

Chairman, do we have any purview over papers? You know I'm thinking that. I'm thinking that we don't.

I

I did you have purview like before 10 exactly very good point.

I

I hope we don't get stuck on on the pavers yeah. I know, and I don't think I don't know.

A

Who's stuck it's a landscape. I I don't think much of plastic pavers. I guess that's the point. So meat.

I

Okay, good, you don't want to bring me into a situation where I.

I

Drag this thing down? No, so are those concrete pavers now just to ask currently, yes.

C

So we are so we were just on page seven, um the there's a sheet after that um per.

R

A next comment that shows all those same railing upgrades but with the black instead.

A

I'm at sheet six or seven yeah that didn't have a seven yeah. We actually added it as a yeah.

R

We added it at the last minute, so it says four of seven again, but it's the second four of seven.

R

We like to keep you on your toes, ah very good. I think it's by these guys.

H

Not so much because there's just less of it, it's almost like a mistake where, in the back of.

H

The building it's a feature. You know a similar comment about the on the front of the building.

I

Back for building, I think the black's a great idea and then small posts and the rest of that.

I

But when I look at the pieces in the front where the these small roofing roof sections over.

I

The entry porticos and the entry porticos have fairly substantial, not huge but fairly substantial.

I

Posts to them, I can't help but break the idea that whoever designed the railings to go on top.

I

Was looking at those posts and was carrying those posts up the corners which the two inch square.

I

Posts will not do or suffice, so I think there's a mistake being made there. If we're really talking.

I

About architecture yeah, the current post, I mean the current system. That's on. There is.

R

Very um trying to think of a pleasant term for sketchy. We call it builder grade to some degree.

R

But like it's very low grade, um I don't even think they're four by fours that are currently.

I

Thinking about really pulled all the way through there there's a small.

C

It's really hard to get anything else besides, four by fours right and then we've got two by just flat.

A

Two guys, on top of that as well. um That's that's the pressure treated stained, white orange cedar.

R

Treated yeah, I haven't actually gone up on the balcony, but just from the ground. It has that look.

R

To it the way that the paint has actually adhered to it or agents on it, you know get a simple.

C

Azac white, with four by four posts you know, and then they have a post cover that goes over the.

C

Post, so to your point, I think I agree, I think one of the one of the features on the rear is that.

R

That we have the brick and we don't have brick in the front and I think the black. So we were talking.

R

About the previous project, the black railing with the brick and the two-tone on the back actually.

R

Does does feel nice together, but at the front there's so few and it's all white trim. I could.

R

See maybe you actually want to do one in white in the front and black in the back? I would agree.

A

Cool, I was thinking, we're gonna have no good opinion at all everything. All right, marty.

I

I'm like come on.

C

I think he somehow managed to attach a pint underneath.

R

um And that's it! That's our last! That's all the sheets! So if anyone.

R

Has any other questions or thoughts or comments? No.

H

um I think dave had an interesting point with the head: the lightness or heaviness of those.

H

Upper the corner posts on the front yeah, so we can look and see if that the railing system has.

R

An alternate maybe slightly larger corner post.

C

You know an alternative idea. Also, you can use four by fours with the cover over them with a.

C

Very simple top and then use the aluminum rails in between you know. It's a system. You don't have.

C

To but you don't have to use necessarily absolutely wow, think of that, it's amazing.

A

Okay, good, that's it great, very good! So so are you coming back for a public hearing? So if I this is.

R

Actually, my first one, so I think you have to tell me yeah you're ready to file, so the deadline is.

E

Next friday, great okay, so we don't need to take a motion to continue to save ourselves. That motion.

C

F

F