City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Historic District Commission, 15 Dec 2021

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From YouTube: 12.15.2021 Historic District Commission

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12.15.2021 Historic District Commission

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B

How do you like that? Okay, yeah welcome everyone to the december 8 20 21.

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15, actually it's the december 15th now welcome uh our agenda. Is the board's actions in these.

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Matters has been deemed to be quasi-judicial in nature if any person believes any member of the.

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Board has a conflict of interest. That issue should be raised at this point, or it will be.

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Deemed waived and we're here to uh essentially just discuss our board a bit: does that sound right.

C

Yeah, I think my understanding or impression was this meeting was intended to be sort of.

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A free-flowing conversation about what we do, how we do it, where you know some people may want to.

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Talk about projects uh that are already through the process that maybe went well or didn't go.

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Well and how the ordinance could be adjusted as well as our process to make things better.

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So I just took some of the ideas that came into me from various members as well as some of my.

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Own and tried to throw them into a framework here not to follow slavishly but to sort of.

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Get the pumps flowing here so we can have a conversation and I just maybe would start with.

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What I did in respect to application types and trends, I track what we do since 2014.

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And I'd just like to go through a few tables for the members that haven't seen this before you love.

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This stuff, it's good to see what worked in the past and what might work in the future, because we.

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Didn't have administrative approvals back in 2014 we only had formal applications, so we were here.

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Often three weeks a month- and we would be here at least twice to midnight- of those three meetings.

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Because we were dealing with all these very, very small projects that still took 15 to 30 minutes to.

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Get through and we we changed the ordinance and took the I think, 12 exemptions, the 12.

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Exemptions and expanded it over time over two or three years to 23 exemptions with performance.

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Standards so we're not just saying it's a free-for-all, but if you do it this way, you don't.

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Have to come here, if you do it that way, you don't have to come here that helped reduce the caseload.

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Significantly so, exemptions were also not in place in 2014, and you can see on the first page here.

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That's when they were adopted and we had 40 57, because it was mid-year that it was adopted.

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And we've basically had a hundred to 125 a year of projects that are not coming here, because they're.

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Basically inconsequential or most importantly, they meet the performance standard of the ordinance.

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So that's what has been consistent here. We we're at 100 to 125 our meetings uh have in 2013. It.

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Was much higher but we're down to 20 even from from 25 at the beginning, that's a big difference.

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This year, we've actually had four months with only one meeting, which is the first time in.

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Eight years we've had that many months with one meeting, probably some of it's covid related.

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Administrative approvals you can see here in 2014 when we adopted it at the end of the year.

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13, but they were none in 13 and before and we had 143 this year. It was a pretty.

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Strong year of small renovations, again, goldwood probably played a hand in that with people at home.

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But uh those generally, as you know, don't take a lot of time at the beginning of the meeting.

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In contrast to having 143 hearings, which is what it used to be uh work sessions, uh these include.

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Duplicate meetings, so these numbers would have something like rains have if they came four times.

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This year, they're four out of the 58, that's consistent throughout the table, uh but we're.

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We're still bumping along in the 50s 60s, which is consistent with the last four or five years.

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They were never work sessions before no. These are oh yeah. Oh, there were work sessions yeah. This is.

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Simply tracking how you know we had a bump in 2017.. I can't remember why uh at this point, but.

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Our our certificate of approvals, as you can see, came down from 160 in the year we adopted.

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The administrative approvals and expanded the exemptions to where we've been consistently about.

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60 to 70 certificate of these are public hearings each year, so things are pretty steady. I I think.

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In our meeting, count is a little bit lower, I mean having four or five less meetings a year is a lot.

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It's 20 less and we're still doing comparable volume, so I feel like procedurally, despite despite.

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Any uh bumps we have along the road reviewing an application, we're not wasting a ton of time.

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In contrast to what we've been doing in the past, it doesn't mean everything we're doing is right or.

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Everything is smooth, but we're managing your time better than and we manage people's.

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Times, historically, by having you here so much longer well, nick, I just want to say.

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Having seen this from the very start that you implemented this and thank you.

D

It's a good thing that you've done. Thank you um so that that's really all I have to say on that.

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I think part of the- maybe that's a good segue into at least what I put at the front of the.

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Agenda and if you don't want to go there, we can start somewhere else, but I was trying to.

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Think, along with others that contributed to this list, what are what are some of the items that we.

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Regularly see that take more time than they should, because we don't have, we don't have a standard. We.

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Don't have a design guideline, I mean standards are very difficult for us to construct because every.

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Every house, street block and neighborhood is different. So it's tough to say, that's why we have.

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Guidelines, not standards, because everything is so different in our historic district. uh But we don't.

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Really have strong guidelines for things like hvac equipment and we we really, I think, struggled.

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To come up with the right solution, sometimes for the applicant before us, and then you know whether.

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It's a condo or whether it's a single family there's a big difference in getting permission.

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And inside versus outside and turning it into a spider web, because it's a condo.

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Is it on the side, the front, the rear, a lot of different things that I think our guidelines don't.

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And we never they don't handle well and before probably two years we didn't have.

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A rule of thumb that we now seem to have, which is people need to screen it pretty much.

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All the time now, we're concerned not just about the public way, but whether someone.

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Can see it from their second floor window in the back of the house, so we need to firm up.

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Because the guidance isn't there and it's a challenge for me as a staff person to give.

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People direction when we we've almost come now to everything being important, regardless.

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Of whether the public can see it and well yeah, we don't do that every time. So I'm not going.

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To can I say something about that second floor window from the back of the house.

D

But I think that personally myself, that there were a couple times that we just went overboard.

D

And um there was somebody on the board that you know felt that if we're going.

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To have to screen them, you know when they're on the side of the house and visible from the.

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Street and they should be screened in the back, damn it and that's just the way it is.

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If you think about what these things are sitting next to a house, they're, no worse.

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Than a garbage can sitting next to a house, they're no worse than other items that people might have.

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A couple bicycles and a snow blower sitting next to their house on the back of the house.

D

I don't think that we should myself personally, and this is going to be something we'll talk.

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About I don't think we should have the same guidelines for the back of the house. The fact.

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That somebody over there peering out their bedroom window can see this unit, which is about this high.

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So be it, that's me I'll share that I do.

B

How about others.

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I agree I mean we've always had kind of an informal back of house rule where our.

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Standards are a little bit less rigid than the front of the house where the public can see it.

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Where you can walk by and see you know everything is the present on the facade um so yeah I mean.

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On the one hand, saying saying just flat out, you know, all of these units should be screened.

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Makes things easier? At least we know that you know it's. Everybody knows that what to expect.

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When they are gonna install one but.

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It it it opens the door to a lot of other things that we don't need to waste our time on and get.

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Into the into the weeds on to to look at every single aspect of the house, where anybody might.

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Ever be able to see it so just a suggestion from before, maybe just to throw it in here.

C

What about the to get people thinking that maybe the way I'm thinking on this particular aspect.

C

What about the? What about the idea of saying in the performance standards.

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If you screen, if you choose voluntarily to screen your condenser wherever you put it in the back, you.

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Don't have to come here, but if you don't screen it, you have to come here for an admin approval.

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Just to make sure it's not a side or a through lot or you can see it from prescott park.

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But create an incentive for people because clearly, if it's screened in the backyard- and it has a.

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Secondary benefit to a butter and they choose to voluntarily do it because they.

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Want to avoid coming here because they want to save time or they think you guys are monsters.

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Then we win uh because it's going to look better screened, whether it's a rubbish bin or a condenser.

C

uh Just an idea, but that that carrot and stick piece is what we already have embedded.

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In many of these exemptions we created, so I'm just throwing it out there for probably the screening.

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Costs less than 100 application right, sometimes yeah and we have a we. You know and on that point.

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We have a template that you know a document that I put together and circulated several months ago.

C

We should take a look at that and make sure everybody's comfortable. We need a.

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Performance standard right, so I know what to say what a screen is and what it isn't.

C

So it's an idea. I like that idea because we did have a situation um actually last week. I guess.

B

Where we had someone on daniel street, that was putting a condenser behind the building, but.

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That behind the building was actually in front of someone else's window, I mean directly and I.

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Can't imagine that anyone would ever open the window now in the summertime there, because it's.

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Literally, it's just two or three feet away: ooh, anything yeah, that's pretty close! It's.

B

Very close yeah: it's really you walk into the room and you you see it through the window and.

B

So I mean it may come back as an issue, I don't know, but uh if it was screened at least it would.

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Be that much more of a buffer, and it wouldn't be like the first thing you notice, when you walk into.

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The room there, it is in the window right. They also might consider that there are some back of.

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The houses that are actually quite visible to the public like things on the mill pond, where.

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It's the back of somebody's house, but if you're across the way or you're walking along uh marshall,.

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I don't see that, but you know I don't see that margo seriously. You know if you're 300 yards away.

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On the middle of the opposite side of the mill pond and you're, looking at somebody's house.

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On south street or whatever I I just don't, you know I don't get it. This is why we look at every.

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Application individually, so maybe nick's idea is, is yeah because that mill pond has.

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Has properties 15 yards away from each other and it has 300 yards and probably the 15er.

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Will put the screen in and avoid somebody at the tip of these ponds where they come together and.

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Have a rear yard in practice, this back of house rule applies to when it's the back of the house.

E

That nobody can see from the public if it's if it's visible, then you know it's a different.

E

Issue, well, I'm willing to work on that yeah. You want me to bring something back and.

F

Talk about it in january, and it's going to take some time yeah. That sounds good. I'd also add that.

A

If somebody has a screening of like a yard fence, yeah that comes quite forward of their house and.

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They put it behind, I would say that's back of the house, because you can't see anything.

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You know, maybe they have the fence 15 feet from their front the front face of their house. I think.

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You do that administratively, if that, if it's that simple, where they have a return into the house.

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And it's behind it's still potentially visible from across a small water body or something that.

C

You either screen the thing or you come here and obviously the case you're talking about which.

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Can't be that common, but it'll happen: it'll, take them 30 seconds here to get approval for a hundred.

C

Dollars and the unit's thousands to put in so it's it's still pretty inconsequential to them. I'd like.

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To avoid having the situation, we've ended up with on marcy street with that that greenhouse that.

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The one that I told you about where they haven't painted the conduit yes and that unit is so it's.

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On the side of the house, but it's so far forward, yeah that it just you know, jumps out at you right.

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Well, we would solve that with a screen or your review is that the three-story yeah and you know.

G

I remember redmond.

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I don't have an answer to this one, but I'm just going to bring it back up and you guys can talk.

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About it, maybe one will come to us. We obviously have a problem portsmouth like so many places.

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Has become because of what it was in the 50s, 60s and 70s when they and earlier when they chopped.

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Up all these larger homes into apartments, most of them have converted into condominiums, not.

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Back to a big single family, so we've got all these instances of which we see every three.

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Months, somebody coming in with a with a mini split in a condo like the one mcnab building.

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And they make a complete mess of the outside, because it's difficult when.

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You have different banks, lenders and owners to get agreement to do anything inside.

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I don't have a solution, but I I think you know we. We need to explore solutions to that. That put some.

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Of the burden on the association than just having the owner come in and say I can't do anything.

C

So we then run another line up to the third floor. um There has to be something better than just.

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Saying, oh yeah, it's a condo we're going to end up with a spider web on this building. I don't.

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Know what it is, but there has to be. I don't know whether it is a building permit associated with.

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Any installation all of that well, they all must have you know the building permit off the building.

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Inspector has to say: where's your htc approval. No, no, that's not the sorry. The problem I'm.

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The problem that I think we're confronting is not somebody doing something without a permit.

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It's the fact that the condo owner comes in here in a three-family unit like the one on the corner.

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Of pleasant and richmond and says: hey, I'm one owner in an association. I live on the upper floor.

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I don't have any rights to put a a chase inside the building.

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Where it would be much better to have the conduit than stuck applied to the exterior.

C

Sometimes we we need to explore it. Maybe all we can do is come up with a good performance.

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Standard for a down downspout or for it to be in a particular location that vertical extension.

C

We try that, but we waste a lot of time. We tried that on pleasant street quite a bit.

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Yeah and it burns a lot of time and I'm not saying we get so if we can develop something.

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That says, in the worst case scenario, here's how you go from the first floor to an upper floor.

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Most times so they know before they get here and we start out with an understanding of how you move.

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On the exterior and which plane you should use, I I think that's something we need to solve. It's.

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Going to get way worse, we're going to see these every month in condos and they're going to look.

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Like the mcnabb, it's a wave of the future, but I would like to say that I just I would rather.

D

See the lines on the outside if they were painted, siding color, then, especially with a.

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First, well not a first period house, but you know a a house of quality, an old colonial, then.

D

Knowing that somebody's drilling holes through the floors and putting this up through.

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And somebody else's home and up to a second or third floor, I just.

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It really upsets me, I agree it can be it's unsightly on the outside, but it's much more.

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Reversible 15 15 years ago, there'll be something else. There'll be the equivalent of wi-fi for heat.

D

Or something you know and all of a sudden, those things will go so playing the devil's advocate.

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Probably many of these buildings have internal chases already installed whether they're in a.

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Stairwell or they're in the corner of the building they're not first period they're.

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Not posting beam, that's not most of our structures. There are. It seems to me important to explore that.

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Existing chase solution, which may not be something they're, even considering, because the contractor.

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Doesn't even want to deal with it, the other people you know there may be interior solutions, sometimes.

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That avoid this stuff on the outside, then I would say if we have to put it on the outside, just like.

C

Co-Locating cell towers, when those things went all over the planet in the 1990s most cities and towns.

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Didn't want 15 of them for the 15 companies. They wanted three and force them to co-locate others on.

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Them we need to come up with a solution that says: okay, we don't want six downspouts on this side of.

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The house, because it doesn't work, you know, maybe there's something more substantial, that's put in.

C

With the association only talking out loud, but I think that's fine, I mean if there's some way.

E

To make sure they do their due diligence to explore that, how do we know yeah? Well, we have.

C

To know what that possibility is in order to force them to do the due diligence right. I don't.

C

What I'm suggesting I'm not sure how you do, but if we can, I use my eyes in other locations.

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Other cities and towns to try and see how they deal with these things find solutions that have.

C

Already been done in places, I hate to say it more sophisticated from a historic preservation.

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Standpoint so then we can figure out hey that worked for them. Maybe we can do the same thing.

C

You know I didn't see anywhere in charleston that looked like the mcnabb house, but they've all got.

C

Heating and cooling and they're not all burning wood. So I don't. I didn't see that solution, but.

C

uh I wish I was looking a little harder, yeah there's a whole problem exactly.

C

Helicopter anyway, does that make sense: oh yeah! Well, yes, it does. If there's a ch, you know, but in.

D

A chase you know you make a comment about drilling holes, but every building that was converted.

H

To hot water heat, oh yeah or steam has pipes drilled right up through the corners of every.

H

Every primary room in the in the dwelling and and somehow we've survived that yeah you're right and.

H

I I and- and I would think especially steam yeah, because it's not easy to bend right yeah. I I I.

H

Honest to god, I'm a bit of a practitioner myself. At least I was back when I was one um been in many.

H

Places seen many solutions to problems, it's almost always comes down to money and will.

H

And- and I think just stapling stuff on the outside of buildings is a lack of of of.

B

Yeah and and people drilling holes through sensitive pieces of cornice work.

H

That's their space, I'm not not their space so well! The thing is, it's. The space of the people.

H

Below them, yes, that's the problem. Yes, I mean we're talking about the second and third floor.

H

But it's they're all in the same condo association, right and and it seems like putting the onus.

H

Of activity and and personal responsibility to the people rather than having to come here and.

H

Have us tell them that they have to be personally responsible. I mean I'm okay, all right. It's a tough.

H

Argument, no, it's a yeah, so uh I can see your point um on basic, simple installations, though.

D

Ones that the unit is here and they're just going straight up. um What does everyone feel about that.

G

Depends on the orientation of the building, so we're back to context. It really is: what's.

D

uh What's there before there's a particularly awful view of the hart house that I get every.

H

Time I drive down marcy street and I think everybody knows what I'm talking about. Yeah.

H

And I'm not proud of that and I'm not proud of I'm not saying we did it, but I'm not proud of.

H

Us in the process right just not proud, did they come to this group. I know which is the hard house.

C

The mcnab thing yeah, yes, okay, yes, oh yeah, they did able to come here and I'm not sure.

C

They did everything they were supposed to. That's still on my list.

C

I believe they got approvals for everything that you see. It's just the wrong color.

C

But you know so it'll. Look this much better yeah! You know yeah.

A

Just thinking about what um a couple of things when we ask people to investigate um refurbishing.

A

Old windows, before replacing them, we rely on them to go talk to somebody who's, an expert or.

A

Seek one of us out to give an opinion, and so I think, asking people to go through that step.

A

Of talking with a contractor and talking with our neighbors about what may or may not be possible.

A

Inside the house is not unreasonable. It's similar to what we ask with regard to windows and with.

A

Regard to us wanting to maintain the integrity of somebody's old insides, I mean there are people.

A

Who literally rip out everything? And they have an entirely modern house on the inside and only the.

A

Shell is left, you mean like yourself, absolutely nothing, there's absolutely nothing that we can do.

A

About that I mean it's a big loss, but it happens a lot at least there's somebody working in there now.

D

You know all I, when I look through the window today, driving by all, I could see, is new studs.

D

Everywhere inside but you're right I mean that and- and I need so- how do we do this? Well, I I think we.

C

Need to we need to do a little bit more research, all of us on what I'm writing down the preferred.

C

Solution is an interchange inside chase. Sometimes that's gonna, maybe rarely that's gonna work, but.

C

That needs to be the default position and maybe, if you use that it's exempt again, we go back to.

C

Our carrots and and they work a little harder to avoid coming here. So you do an inside chase and.

C

You don't rip up, you know. If everybody inside says hey, you can come through my unit. That's one thing.

C

Everybody on an upper floor has a common stairwell. I mean there. There are common.

C

Spaces that go vertically inside the house and it might encourage it- might encourage more people in.

A

The house itself to consider a single solution instead of one person doing it one year and then.

A

Somebody else doing it a different way, two years from now and so on and so baby. I think a lot of.

C

These things are still going to be incremental, but sometimes they will because they're they're a lot.

C

Of money and everybody's in a different spot and need, uh but yes, but it doesn't mean if somebody.

C

Is going first and there's three more people that they don't think about? We don't think about and.

C

They don't think about two more people being added at some point in the future, similar to a blanket.

C

Approval, it looks a little bit like the porter street radon situation yeah exactly. I knew there.

D

Was going to be in the application process, do they um do they basically make the application to.

D

Be on the hdc agenda: do they do that with the secretary at the front or they do it online.

C

So I don't, I don't get to speak. I was wondering if there was any way to interject.

D

And and say: uh okay, um your applications for a heat pump with the outside tubing.

D

There you have these criteria. Have you checked the inside right? First, first line of defense is.

C

The design guidelines to actually say because not everybody, looks probably half the people.

C

Don't know they existing when they get here, but we need it written down that this is sort of the the.

C

Priority inside consolidated outside consolidated and the third line of defense is individual.

C

Disaggregated, which is our default setting right now and then we haggle, but yes, david sorry, dave.

C

Go ahead! No! No! No! I was just going to finish by saying uh before his knees. Yeah. That's all! Okay,.

C

Is that these contractors that put in these systems they'll learn in six months? How we want to.

C

Go and- and this does a year from now, if we did it in january, we would avoid eighty percent of this.

C

Because they'll learn what we want so yeah david, mr chairman, yes, say that very very similar thought.

H

To that, maybe because I think we all agree that not every one of these is going to be the same.

H

That there is no blanket solution that all the condos departments cut it, but is there a way.

H

To get ahead of it, so there isn't a problem where you're facing somebody who's trying to.

H

Get the damn thing in who's lucky to get a plumber or the heating contractor lined up.

H

Has the stuff coming sitting on a loading dock and august is next week, so the answer is yes.

H

Get ahead of it somehow, but it isn't a perfect system because there's no way to force somebody.

C

To have to talk to any of us right, but there most people aren't, aren't dumb and and the contractors.

C

That they hire to do the hpac, they will learn relatively fast and they do reach out occasionally.

C

It look if, if hard plumbing calls me for one in six of their clients uh in the historic district.

C

They're going to know for the next five, where they're not calling what the standard.

C

Now is or how they should approach it and that's how we've improved.

C

Some of the things we're doing is through that feedback loop, but there's no mandatory, hey.

C

Thou must go talk to so-and-so. Well, that's what that's why I was mentioning that we need a way to.

D

Intercept them before they come to the meeting we need to well, I can't do that. They get too invested.

C

His problem is easier to solve than yours.

C

Having them know before they come to a meeting that they should be intercepted, I can do that, but.

C

That doesn't leave me more than a few weeks. Then they've already taken the idea. The investment part.

C

Like likely farther than first base because they are not talking to anybody and there's no.

C

Mandatory go talk to the building inspector before you pull pull a permit, so I can. I can resolve.

C

John's problem by when the applications come in, which is three weeks before the meeting reaching.

C

Out to a heart, uh hbac person and say you know, you're probably doing it wrong. You want to think.

C

About changing it, come in with a modification wait a month, that's doable, but it's hard. How about a.

H

Flyer three fairly well worded paragraphs that the plumbing department had that handed somebody when.

H

They came in for an application for heating, something around. I mean that can definitely.

C

Help that that's that puts the that puts. Yes, that puts on the interest on the contractor, who really.

H

Yeah once he engages once a contractor engages in a project would like to follow through and get it.

H

Done and get that kaching at the end understood, but remember that the people installing this.

C

Equipment right, you're, a [, __, ] you're in the business of watching this stuff, and these people.

C

The people that install hvac equipment, less than like three percent of their clientele are in the.

C

Historic district, so they're doing this stuff 18 times a day and they know what they're doing.

C

They know what the building code is: they're, not talking to a building inspector or a plumbing.

C

Inspector till they're saying here's the money I need a permit, so that's not going to get early.

C

Enough yeah, so they're going to learn fast. Believe me and I I think the the way to have.

C

Material marketing material is in the design guidelines and what I can do better.

C

And we can do better through me is make sure that design guideline material is more readily.

C

Available in the inspection department should, in the off chance they come in and ask a question.

C

That's there because, I'm not sure even all the employees in the inspection department, they don't.

C

They, let us do the historic district stuff and they don't really think well I'd just.

D

Like to say that you know, david's idea is great. That's you should follow up on that. You should.

D

We should print up uh a small little guideline on these units and I'm not thinking it's so much. The.

D

Plumbing inspector, I think, is because basically, the units are electrical. Inspection is a big thing.

D

Because you have to run 220 out to the outside of your building, and that has to be inspected and.

D

You've got to have a receptacle and a switch that shuts it on and off, and all that sort of thing so.

D

You know we would be hitting them at that particular point so that co and- and we then.

D

We have to be sure that the secretary and or the building inspector, if he's in his office and.

D

Handing out says, oh by the way, read this: that's all I agree. That's all we need the standard and.

C

If we have the design guideline with that little chapter, I know that you know the design standards.

D

Were so into it and everything, but how many people really look at them if they're doing a big project.

D

They're going to get the design standards and they're going to look at it, but for you know.

D

Doing a setting, but everybody that does windows so the beauty of the design guidelines. If you.

C

Haven't seen it online is every chapter: is its own document, so you're not giving everybody the book.

C

And you're not saying buy the book read the book, you give them the windows, you give them the deck.

C

You give them the masonry, there's 12 chapters we need one on mechanicals or the mechanical.

C

Piece, that's in the side, elements needs to be pulled out might be two pages, it's exactly what.

C

You're talking about, but rather than create more documents, it needs to be in there. So we can say.

C

Hey given chapter 13, which is mechanicals, and it's only three pages and there's illustrations: okay,.

D

Okay, but I still think we need to do it physically, also well, it's when you apply online right and you.

G

Put the address of the uh property property should not just immediately flag, you are in the htc.

G

Therefore, you may run into these issues. That's a great idea. I want you to does that.

C

I don't know if it if it's co-related to the district or you have to voluntarily say you're.

C

In the district yeah and that's a software issue, it's not us that writes it, but that's.

C

Something I can take back and ask and then see if they'll change it yeah. I mean the the issue.

F

uh Really is how do we become proactive to avoid many of these situations? The corollary to this is.

F

People purchase homes in the historic district and they come to us because they want to eliminate.

F

Chimney, for instance, or fireplace right, so you know, I think we need to be proactive and tell.

F

The real estate agents who deal here this is information that you need to give your.

F

Customers or potential clients I don't deserve after the fact we have talked about that before.

C

We definitely have a whole marketing piece here that we need to do better, and these are all fit.

C

And there are, and the most important thing to take away is there's multiple ways to do that and.

C

We need to do more than one way. The last page on the handout is a disclosure form similar to lead.

C

And this would need state approval to be attached to any uh real estate transaction.

C

But it would put everybody on record at closing that buys a house in the historic district that.

C

They're in the district, and we could make the guidelines available informally through the.

C

The real real estate offices, but that actually gets recorded, so somebody can't you know rip the.

C

Windows out on sunday and say well, I didn't even know I was in the district they've signed this.

C

And this can be done, but not not unilaterally by itself. Why does this have to be approved by the.

D

State interview, because it's it's a legal instrument that gets recorded the registry.

C

Of deeds, it's not it's the way it works. So why couldn't we have more of a volunteer voluntary.

D

That would be signed by the people. It's just kind of good faith. We have too many agents in town.

E

And there's too much turnover, there's liability involved with real estate and things that are so.

D

We print up a thousand copies of something similar to this and send a hundred to every agency in town.

D

And say: if you're in the historic district please give this yeah, I I don't think, uh what's going on.

E

It won't be harm, I think it won't get used. I think that you have to mandate that they do this.

C

Well, the harm may be that it's spotty and then you don't know who's in and who's out. Everybody.

C

Would be in there by law right that and it yeah. I don't know again, that's and I think martin's.

D

Idea of having a being a little thing lights up on the screen, that's a great idea right, you're in the.

E

Historic district software should be able to do that because every tax and lot number should you.

E

Should be able to attach a something onto that to say yes, it's in the house, it has to co-relate it.

C

To a map, so it's it yeah, it should be able to do it. It's not quite as simple as just a map and lot.

C

They have to be joined, the two tables you could just do street names and say you may be it needs.

C

To be precise and there's a way to do that, that is the way it is yeah, especially on middle street,.

C

So believe me uh very few, if any, I cannot think of an example in the past few years, where somebody.

C

Hasn't known they're in the historic district by the time they get a permit if they apply for a.

C

Permit because it gets reviewed by several people before a permits issue, including the the land use.

C

Departments and anything in the district comes to me so if they, by address and by map not by a box.

C

That's necessarily checked: uh we checked whether whether the box has been checked, so I don't think.

C

That's a big problem for us. I think the problem is getting this information. First of all, we need.

C

The answers I I don't have a solution yet for mechanical uh devices, because we're still trying.

C

To research and write it, so we got to first. Do the science part of what is the solution going to be.

C

And then the marketing part of how we- how do we get it on the street proactively? So we've got.

C

To think about both those things as we move through this list of whatever concerns are.

C

We know we have a marketing problem uh yeah, so we've already discussed it and we've had.

D

A good idea, so I think it's really up to you to get these things done. It's on. You now sounds good.

B

Hey I'm serious well, we spent a lot of time talking about that. One yeah well.

C

You know what I'll take the marketing you guys figure out all the performance standards, because.

C

I've got nothing to market yet right. Well, I think your default that every unit should be covered as.

G

A default, and if you want to not cover it, you need to come before it yeah. That idea, I think.

C

That's appropriate, but I still need the science. That's number one. What science is there too.

C

What's the so, what's the performance standard for the mechanicals, what's the performance standard.

C

For radon, what's the performance standard for mini splits, we got to have agreement on what that is.

C

In order to create the incentive, disincentive and the marketing package so everything's at play,.

C

Here, we've covered all the bases, the marketing and we had more than porter street for radon.

C

Yeah we've had one on uh humphreys down on near marcy. Horrible uh result I mean it goes.

C

Out around the gutter and the eve, and now they put it in without a permit, came in retroactively. But.

C

It's it's not what you'd want to see on a house wow because we'll put a wind turbine on it.

E

Have you how much have you looked at other any other guys, no.

E

No any other guidelines from neighboring or other historic districts for mechanical stuff.

E

Just saying, if you have a little okay, I can yeah that'd be great yeah god. I've got about.

D

Eight or ten other city guidelines that you know for a while there we were maybe it was you if.

C

They're, not maybe you're working three years old, don't bother yeah they're, all eight or ten years.

C

Yeah we're talking many splits at you know gone wild well, the they're, the wave of the future right.

D

And you're right about that, I'm not even using my furnace, I'm still using my mini split yeah.

D

Put that thing on 66 and there it goes it's just fine until it gets down to 5 degrees, and then it.

D

Doesn't work so well, so I think radon similar it's an inner outer and then individual, that's sort of.

C

The three buckets that I'm still seeing with a mechanical device can you get it inside? Can.

C

You consolidate it outside and if you can't then they're individual, then what do they look like.

C

You know I put steps on here, I'm not sure what I was thinking that well we had the granite yeah.

A

The granite problem we had yeah six months- I don't know how, if that's worth.

C

Institutionalizing, given there's a wide variety, you know each century almost has.

C

Different granite steps um anyway, so not everything on here is consequential. I just tried.

C

To we only really had one structure, I do think accent, lighting string, lighting, step lighting. You.

C

Know we just did the step lighting on salter. Did we really need to do that? Do we want to do that.

C

String lighting can be really uh really cool and really bad, depending on how it's done, how high it.

C

Is but that's like, like christmas lights, is there you're talking about string string lighting is all.

C

The rage now like a mini, split everybody's buying the bulbs, so they put 40 lights in their backyard.

C

And it can look really cool, but it can really change the neighborhood, not just it's also. You can.

E

Take it down yeah, it's temporary. It is yes yeah. So it's really not our purview anyway, right yeah.

B

I mean I tend to be able to think like if it's super, temporary or reversible. I thought I thought.

A

The string lighting meant the stuff that, like mcnabb, is putting between the buildings, the string.

C

Lighting is you know, you guys know what string lighting is they're, just regular bulbs that you.

C

Know could be a mile long and they also have ropes. They have rope lighting yeah, that's another. So.

B

That's another one: people put it on the railings of their deck. Just not so sure you want to.

C

I'm not so sure you want to just say: hey, that's all temporary, don't worry about it. I think.

C

We need to start talking about what temporary stuff can do to a historic.

C

District, if, if we're not careful, you know what they plug it in that's the other thing.

D

You know it's not easy to say it's temporary. Well, maybe we have to determine what temporary means.

B

Because if it is christmas, lights we're not going to certainly get into that waiting today, I don't.

A

Think we're talking yeah. But what does temporary mean? Is that temporary, like 9 months out of 12,.

B

Or does that mean well? I think these are good questions to answer and we don't have to answer.

C

Them all tonight, but I'm just encouraging you guys. You know whether you're doing a hot tub that might.

C

Have wheels under it but sits out in the backyard next to next to something else, and it sits off the.

C

Ground so many inches feet. There are probably a whole host of things that might not be uh for a.

C

Historic district in a particular location that you might want to consider regulating and don't.

C

Don't stick your head into the ordinance and say: well, these are the guard rails. I can't go.

C

Outside we can change the ordinance if there's a need, that's demonstrated to change the ordinance.

C

Things are coming along that weren't there 30 years ago, like many splits that were never.

C

Considered when the ordinance was written, isn't changing the ordinance.

D

Isn't that a big deal yeah? That's no! We changed it twice in 2013 14.. You can change the ordinary.

D

But you just don't willy-nilly, do it. You know a couple times a year because it has to be voted on.

H

Don't the guy doesn't the guidelines and everything have to be reprinted or.

D

How you know, how does it involve the city? No, the city council is the it's a legislature that amends.

C

The zoning ordinance- yes, you, you are responsible to a degree with my assistants in the planning.

C

Department in bringing forward amendments that you think are appropriate for the district, like we've.

C

Done in the past- and it's been done dozens of times since the historic district was created and.

C

You bring it to city council, you advocate why you think it should be changed. They decide if.

C

It's going to be changed or not, but that's that's normal and not to be. We shouldn't be afraid of it.

E

I have one of those issues to bring up, but we can get through well bring it up.

D

Let's talk about the temporary light, some more I'm sorry, but you know I don't think we're done.

E

Fine, I don't I'm just just, and he mentioned hot tubs and that's another thing.

D

You know, I don't know so I guess all of a sudden I've become the more liberal. Member of this whole.

D

Board because I feel that the historic district commission should be primarily.

D

Looking at the buildings and what is done on a permanent basis to our historic structures,.

D

I don't think that you know every neighbor looking at something and they don't like that.

D

They don't want to look out their window and see that I don't think that that's really our purview.

D

When this, when this board was started 30 years ago, it was because of tearing down buildings.

D

It was the buildings on daniel street that were torn down by the banks.

D

To create a drive-through parking thing for the indian head bank and all of a sudden, everybody.

D

Said, oh yeah, man we've got to stop this. That's where how we started and now we've gone into.

D

You know whether a light fixture can be on a block or does it need to be painted and.

D

And this sort of thing a lot of this is because it's the front of the building sides.

D

I I can see, what's visible from the street, is very important to me, but I just I'm hesitant.

D

On getting into people's backyards, whether or not somebody can see it from away or not.

D

I just you know I I just don't know, I really don't know what to say where we're going. Yeah.

G

What uh what's the limit we could get into bird baths? Bird feeders yeah? We could get into virginia.

D

I could I was on the board when we had a battle over um window air conditioner.

B

Do you remember that yep on the front of the building, I don't remember if it was on the.

D

Front or whatever, and something else that came up was um somebody put in a play: uh ground equipment.

D

In their backyard a swing set, oh my god, and I don't know it's just I. I agree with you. The the.

E

Purpose of the historic district commission is to protect our historic fabric, a play structure.

E

String lights, that's not gonna. Those little things aren't going to have a big permanent effect on our.

E

Historic character in the city, it may have a temporary effect. It may have a visual effect.

E

For while this is a trend, but I I agree that it's we're getting a little bit too invasive.

E

In people's properties- and um we can you, could you could go down a long list of what ifs.

E

That we need to say well, you know what, if somebody wants to put in a hot tub on.

E

Wheels what if somebody wants to park their rv, their rv and they're? You know we. We can't.

E

We have to keep to the basics, I'm I'm a forest versus the trees person, so other.

E

People here are training you're. The one person I didn't think was going to agree with me. Yeah no.

E

I I'm I'm. The danger that I see here is that we begin to determine what behavior is appropriate.

F

And I think that's a very dangerous avenue to go down.

B

Now, well, I could speak to it from a real estate perspective, and that is that there are already.

B

Buyers that do not want to be in the hcc, because they've heard of horror stories.

B

Which really are are not true, I'd like to think about the um whether we put the the.

B

Light fixture on a block or not as a refinement of what we do, because it is better on a block.

B

Typically, not on a clock, uh I think we're good if we start determining whether you can have.

B

Lights or playground equipment or what you can park in the driveway or any of that stuff. It's.

B

It's not going to be favorable to those of us who own in the historic district, and you know we care.

B

About it, so we we want people to be encouraged to come in and want to continue to preserve.

B

And protect those buildings not worried about whether they can get a swing set for their kid.

D

Yeah- and I think what we're talking about too is this- is the difference.

D

Love it or leave it or live free or die, but we're in new hampshire. Okay- and this is um with the.

D

Color with the purviews of uh painting and all this stuff we've had this discussion many times.

D

Thank god: we've just narrowed it down to factory coatings, but the difference between us and.

D

Marblehead or martha's vineyard or nantucket I mean my god, a nantucket. You they've only got two.

D

Colors, you can use your front doors got to be black, it's got to be, you know.

D

That would never fly here. We might as well just go off and jump in the mill pond right now get.

D

It over with, because that's what would happen to us, giving you the ride just call, I think.

G

Go ahead, I'm sorry very polite of you, I'm there for you. You know that john um an eye for you.

H

One of the things that I thought there's no question that the the historic district.

H

Commissioner, from time to time, gets into this lifestyle issue and, and has things to do with.

H

Not the architecture of the building and not just expressly the whether you're demolishing.

H

The building or not, that you duly own in the state of new hampshire with sovereign.

H

Ownership uh but but we made a pact some time ago, suggesting publicly that the architecture.

H

Of the community was unique and special, and that out of normal activities should be.

H

Enacted to protect and preserve those properties, but recognizing that it comes with a bit of a cost.

H

Because it's not always the least expensive route of maintenance that people are encouraged to.

H

Take by this commission- and I would say for good reason, but the cost of that provides a privilege.

H

Of living in the historic district, which you say, some people really not excited about.

H

One of the things that I always felt that we were providing, along with our architectural review.

H

Was the bit of the lifestyle focused issues that made life a little bit easier or affordable or.

H

Maintained a higher level of property values in the historic district, so that people felt safer.

H

With their money, it wasn't just that there wasn't a mobile station moving in next door.

H

But that their building wasn't going to be next door to somebody that decided that their fence.

H

Needed lighting on it that we were providing out some some lifestyle related issues that.

H

Were beneficial when I moved into my house, which was before the historic district commission.

H

And I had my way with the place, which was great, um but there was a gal up the street that sold.

H

Bait, yes out the window of her dining room, maggie and, and I don't think that that activity.

H

Was beneficial to the property values of the people that lived around her.

H

Don't think it was and so making it difficult for someone to continue that process of selling bait.

H

Out of their dining room window made allowed for property values to rise and people feeling that.

H

Their investments in the property were more secure and therefore could participate in a.

H

Public conversation about what kind of club wards and how far apart, they would be on the.

H

Outside of their house, I think it's a two-way street. It's not just. We are the big bad guys.

H

And that your libertarian views are, I mean your arguments have just gone back and forth. Also.

D

You know I I just um I don't know what to say. But, uh okay, you know you're taking it both ways too.

D

Debatable, I think, that's the contradiction, balance. That's also a contradiction of what.

C

I think we're all saying that when you say you want our job, your job to be primarily focused on.

C

The buildings- I don't think, there's anyone in the room here, that's ever suggested. Let's move away.

C

From the buildings and let's talk about hot tubs, the idea is: how do we do our job of preserving, not.

C

Just historic structures, but historic settings and a setting is a comple. Most of our structures are.

C

Not vocal they're contributing, which means they're all working together, and why do we care about the.

C

Side yards because they're working together, so it's about looking the same way, these hvac.

C

Spider webs they're, all temporary and somebody will look at it and you've said it. I don't.

C

Care they're temporary, let it go where someone else will say: that's putting tennis shoes on a.

C

Brooks brothers suit: it's the wrong solution that diminishes the whole, even if it's only for.

C

15 years, so it's the struggle. We all have, I think, in trying to balance more permanent things from.

C

More temporal things, knowing that the frame's going to be there for 200 years or more.

C

The shingles 30 the windows 35 if they've got gas between the pains to the front door right.

C

We're trying to always triage, but I think the purpose of our conversation is really to see.

C

How we can do a better job without it being even close to perfect we're not trying to be charleston.

C

But we're not trying to be 1965 either we're just trying to preserve things from demolition. This.

C

Place culturally is a sea change from where it was in the 60s, and I know that not even being here.

C

And we're trying to find our way through time to balance preservation, restoration and the.

C

Continued revitalization of something that was pretty dormant in the 50s, but here we are.

G

Well, I was saying you could define this, be you could say that fixed equipment is part of our.

G

Purview string lights is not fixed equipped if it's plugged in if it's hardwired in it's fixed.

G

Equipment, so we can't get there if you want to explore that, I don't mind doing that. I'm not.

C

Suggesting I only threw it out as an example, and I would have trouble with fixed versus what they.

C

Both have the same result, good bad or indifferent, whether they're fixed or temporary. So I I wouldn't.

C

Know whether you have control over it, uh I don't understand that it's an authority to say: oh, you.

C

Mean us having control. No, we have to get a permit to plug in I understand, but why would you want to.

C

Exempt somebody with with a plug-in light versus permanent id. You either do them both or you don't.

C

Do either they're the same effect when they're plugged in what's the purpose of even doing it.

G

Well, I don't think we're going to create utopia here, so we have to have at least some. You know.

B

Right so I don't think you're listening to him he's absolutely right, because if they're hardwired.

D

It's a building permit it's in the historic district. Here we are okay. If it's, if it's.

D

Hardwired, if somebody says I'm going to build a deck and they want to have a hard wired lights.

D

That all around that are clicked on inside the house with a switch and all this sort of thing.

D

You know, but they've got lights now you can just lay them on the ground and turn.

D

Them on with your phone, I get that yeah, you know. So, if I was on the commission, I'd say.

D

Don't regulate any of them? What can we do about it? If you either do them all or you don't do them.

F

Yeah I need to interject uh yeah. I I really had hoped that uh dave adams would finish his thought.

F

And I think you interrupted him and I don't know whether he can reconstruct what he was. Where were.

D

You say, but uh I guess I'll thank you for your consideration. I I the point that I was trying to.

H

Make was the spillover from just hard architecture, cloudboards and shingles. The spillover has to do.

H

With the lifestyle of the people who live that live in the community, the contribution.

H

That every single piece and part of it makes to the community. I would like to see the telephone.

H

Poles come down and all of the damn wires gone so that I could walk through my my street and take a.

H

Picture of somebody's house without having all kinds of crap around it. I just think that that.

H

In the process of doing this weeks, we went down this road, we were we're subjecting people.

H

To costs that people will say in other parts of the community don't have, and we were in our own.

H

Way trying to provide them with a security blanket that those higher costs for living in the historic.

H

District were compensated by something which is a little bit more control over what took place with.

H

Your neighbors and the lifestyle of of the people that live in the community, and so yes, we should.

H

Just be talking about whether we tear buildings down or not or or whatever the hardcore part of it.

H

I got that, that's what that's the the thing that we're trying to do is preserve the architecture.

H

Of the community, which has got nothing to do with how I feel about living on my street, it's.

H

About the architecture but there's more to it than that, and and I think recognizing that there's more.

H

To it is it's a thing that we just have to do and that's why we grapple with these things. I.

H

Don't think we should feel bad for ourselves that we're sitting around banging our heads.

H

Wondering how we should do this or whether we should do that, I don't think there's any.

H

Hard and fast rules, I think our attitudes are going to change in the next five years.

H

But I think it's good to have these conversations. Oh yeah. I agree. That's that's really. I don't think.

H

Anybody's wrong- and I don't certainly don't think I own any amount of right but but but.

H

You know that it feels uncomfortable, I think, is part of the process. We should just keep leaning.

E

I I think you have you, make very valid points as well, and it is that fine line of balancing.

E

This attention to the setting um and the that the setting is part of our architectural and historic.

E

Character, so I was not trying to make the point that we should only look at the building envelope.

E

And that's it, but um it's you could go either way. We don't want to go in the extreme in any.

E

Direction, isn't it extreme? That's important, yeah, evaluate evolution and progress exactly and the.

H

Hardwired thing, I think, martin, I think you've got a point there. It's it's sort of like since it's an.

H

Easy point to say that we are going to have some control over this. It's it's an easy thing to hit.

H

uh And- and I think it yes everything's temporary- I guess, but that's an easy one and it's right there.

H

In in we have an electrical department that has to give you a permit to do it right makes sense.

D

Okay, it makes sense what about this. That's a difference.

D

Hardwired versus, what's what's the next one, the storm windows.

E

What do you have down there for, of course, nick.

C

I don't know if it includes adding them versus replacing just replacement. Let me.

C

Look at that think it just is replacing oh, I should have brought money yeah. I think that.

A

This might have come up in the context of the darkest place on middle street.

A

Where he has those wonderful old windows and they're very expensive to replace, he has storms.

A

Outside as it is right now and he comes in- and he says I want to take down these- I can't afford.

A

To fix these windows, these storm windows don't work very well because they're from the 1960s.

A

We've got this new type of storm window. If I put this up and leave the old windows intact,.

A

And I get the weatherproofing and the energize energy savings that I want is that okay, that's.

D

A win-win, though, that that's essentially that's essentially what what um it's in the guidelines.

D

To to to replace that storm window, okay and if they're not replacing the windows on the inside.

D

Then that takes care of okay, so that particular problem. I know why I put it on the performance.

C

Standard only allows replacement or new installation of a storm if it's wood and nobody.

E

Really does that so we need to have those aluminum storms be allowed. If you I'm throwing it out there.

C

Given we do it, you can't do that without coming in here now replace an aluminum storm or put one on.

C

And I think we should have a standard to allow that and I think we should have. um Maybe people.

E

Will know uh a list of recommended storm companies, because there are some storm windows that look.

E

Better than others um so yeah, so, let's, let's so that the homework is find the ones that look right.

C

The most important thing is to write it, so they end up looking right, regardless of who makes them.

C

Because the manufacturers come and go right and I'll have a working list that comes and.

C

Goes but I need a standard that reflects the ones we want to look right. That's the homework.

C

Project yeah everybody find one is there I mean you should talk about what storm window.

G

I mean you're talking about. Is there an operable storm window? That's not.

G

A telltale I mean no storm they're, almost all double hung with you know like a triple track.

E

You know just a little bit window that does that it's, the big hang on. Oh, those are tilts out yeah.

E

They still sell them, yeah the wood ones. You mean yeah yeah, I'm just surprised. We.

G

Haven't run into that in my three and a half years, no, because they're exempt.

C

They're exempt, I have them they're not going to run into it. Okay, some people have done it very.

C

Sparingly, they typically come here and ask for the aluminum and get it right. So it would be something.

C

We could remove three agenda items off our, so what's the uh what's, the worst window, repair.

D

That you can think of. Do you remember over by the market.

D

On middle street, I think that street that goes back.

D

Well, I don't know, let's see it's not union street, it's on the other side of that market. Flybird.

D

That's a different one, but these people actually, uh so we suggested that they have somebody.

D

Repair their windows and keep their windows, and they found this contractor and what he did.

D

Is he actually took other windows six over six windows and on the outside of the top sash? He.

D

Screwed it on there, so it was double thick there and then he did the inside of the other session. It.

D

Was the weirdest looking thing you'd ever seen, it was terrible and they hate it and technically he.

D

He said well, I did what you guys asked for and it was shocking. You know, I don't know how we.

D

Ever dealt with it, or did we all just run they? um I think we expected them to come back so that.

E

We could revisit it again and they never did. They just went with this yeah yeah. Okay, uh be careful.

H

What you hoped for yeah so just sort of running down that list small garden sheds if you're.

C

Instead of an admin approval and do we have are they, I can't remember if they're talked about in.

E

The guidelines they are yeah, that's what I thought they should yeah well. So I was wondering if we, if.

C

If there were any, we could think of made out of the right things that were the right size.

C

Like a trash enclosure, a small shed that someone could do without coming here, but I I don't think.

C

It's worth spending a lot of time on. They can come here because they can be so different from one.

C

Another yeah we had the trash enclosure on middle that near the rice, building that yeah they never.

A

Came back and I don't know if they ever actually did anything. I thought they got approval. To put it.

D

They put it on the side, that's the other side of the door. We did approve that I thought we did.

C

Yeah and they tucked it on the right house right yeah. So here here's another one: that's not crystal.

C

Clear, it's the whole public art and I I don't have the solution, but I I would only end by saying.

C

What I've said previously, when this came up for the mcnab project, the brick market.

C

I, as as a practitioner, believes strongly, despite it being temporary, perhaps and not.

C

A principal building that somebody like you, guys look at art, that's proposed in the district.

C

Because it has such a to me profound impact on what it's stuck on or in front of or below.

C

That I think you know it's not easy. It's the hardest part of what we do.

C

Judging it, but I I think it makes sense that you guys whether it's 99 bowl street, what we just.

C

Went through with the whales and that's going to probably come back for another conversation.

C

It's your district to protect. I think it's absolutely. I don't think there should be an.

E

Administrative approval, I still think it should come to us because I'm in agreement right now, it's.

C

Not in the ordinance clearly that it's supposed to come to you, that's why it keeps getting debated by.

C

People that don't like what you're going to say, I think it is important to come before us and.

E

Important for us to acknowledge that we're not art, historians or art critics, but to dave's point.

E

If something totally crazy, you know with like fluorescent lights, and things like that were.

E

Proposed you know that would damage surrounding property values and it would hurt the neighbors.

E

So I think, to protect and in the district, so I think to to offer that extra layer of protection.

E

Just to say like okay, this is not something that's going to be seriously detrimental to.

E

The district as a whole yeah, it was important, so I'm only advocating we actually write something.

C

In the ordinance that that codifies that you guys have purview, we've been doing the murals and most.

C

Of the time it's working well, the murals that were here 10 years ago, like on the corner of washington,.

C

Street never came through here and there are people me included that aren't excited about.

C

Some of them in what they did to the building, but you know I think you you guys have generally not.

B

Which uh how would you like to say so, let's go ahead.

F

uh When we had the meeting about um the art on uh mcnabb's building was constructing. Now um I.

F

Meant to make a comment because I was actually appalled. It was what was being proposed and I.

F

Heard many positive comments, but to me the whole seemed like you know: the city blocked fair, where.

F

People bring stuff out of the attic to sell on the street, and so um the the inconsistency and uh the.

F

You know the below par value of the art that was actually selected was.

F

Really disturbing to me and the fact that we all seem to be sort of in agreement just.

F

Totally shut me down, because what I saw was uh something really in their taste.

E

Well, there's a difference between objective subjective art, opinions and what you know we can.

E

Kind of collectively agree is, you know, would be completely inappropriate for for the district. You.

E

Know it's again: it's those you're looking to knock the extremes off right and I think if, in fairness,.

C

To all of you, despite some of you biting probably your your lips cheeks and everything else, there.

C

Was a healthy discussion and there were elements of that exhibit that were removed as part of the.

C

The concern put it that way, so I I think my belief is always reasonable people at the end.

C

Of the day will be reasonable, even if it's not a unanimous decision, and I think until we absolutely.

C

Self-Destruct doing it, we should keep doing it and recognize that it is subjective, but you don't have.

C

To close your eyes to see that something is really going to damage what's around it and you speak up.

C

And you see if it's a shared concern and then most applicants are willing to yield somewhat.

C

To a shared concern, because that's what reasonable people do.

C

And you end up in a better place than everybody closing their eyes and saying this is impossible.

C

Because everybody's right, everybody isn't always right, I think we can take some of our approach to.

A

Architectural design and apply it to to public art and looking at the mass.

A

Of what's proposed the its location in the the context of the neighborhood.

A

um You know where is it viewed from and what does it see and those sorts of things, but.

A

I think the hesitation that we might have- and I know that I have is somebody's graffiti- is.

A

Somebody else's art and we ran into that with the painting. That's still in front of your building.

A

Karen some people think it's weird and don't like it, and other people think that it's fantastic.

B

The bee girl out in front of uh and then there's the one with the you know the dead, mermaid and.

A

Then there was the the one that you were referring to over on state street, which is kind of degrading.

D

There was a giant shark somebody painted, oh, the shark is still oh, the shark is still there.

B

Down on um yeah yeah, so yeah there's some people there and I don't even know about a new building.

A

So I think I think that we can use some of our existing standards when we look particularly at.

A

Three-Dimensional art, like these screening pieces, that mcnabb is using to hide certain things. You.

A

Know he could have just put up a fence instead he's putting up something more interesting. um So I.

A

I hesitate because I'm not an art critic and, and even our critics disagree on what is art.

A

And what's not art, but I think we can look at the context of where it's being put and say is.

A

This too big, is it too small? Does it overshadow other things? Does it? Is it completely out of.

A

Style with you know something else: that's right or like maybe are the whales appropriate versus.

C

Shipbuilding, you guys talk, I mean if that was unimportant. It wouldn't have been talked about.

C

So I think, most of the time you're going to find yourself in the right place. Even if there is some.

C

uh Uncomfortable feeling of discomfort yeah, you know it's every time. We do something like that.

H

Reviewing art, we should probably start out with the disclaimer saying that there.

H

Is no one else, as sitting as a board in the community to review this, and therefore.

H

We will rise to this occasion, not out of joy but out of necessity exactly.

B

Good disclaimer and let me put that right, past quasi-judicial.

C

And I think it's worthwhile considering as a commission, if you're, if you're, uh somewhat forced.

C

uh Because of the absence of someone else to do that, uh either as a team member or take that away.

C

From you, I think it's not unreasonable for for all of us, mainly you to think about. Is there a way to.

C

Supplement that component to what you do with an independent group like art, speak or somebody, it.

C

Can they can they handle? Can they filter, like tac, does that I sit on the technical advisory.

C

Committee for the planning board can we have somebody give us a recommendation as to whether.

C

This art is suitable or not, and then we can focus more on how it affects the buildings than how.

C

It affects the people that walk by and look at that blue circle. So how do you get someone in to.

H

To do that without disrupting the normal flow of applicant uh applies and then part of the process.

C

And and you go first to say, art speak or what? How do we know to go to art speak if you're, the people.

C

Proposing art you're going to be told just like you are, if you have to come to the planning board.

C

And you're doing something that requires site plan approval, you're, going to attack the process.

C

Sent you there all right, so that's pretty easy to implement and like the conservation, correct right.

H

The wetlands and the planning boards I've always thought that this commission has the opportunity.

H

And I think the legislation to call in experts to provide testimony to fill in the gaps of our.

H

Collective knowledge, we want to front load that so we're not actually slowing everybody down, so they.

H

Go there first and then we don't have to worry about it and we can blame them if it's bad. Looking.

G

Right all right can I you know, I I think you got to come prepared for the meetings like that.

G

You got to say something you got to, I mean I even choked on saying look I just don't.

G

Like this, I just don't like it. It's just it's not doing anything for me and heinz you you needed to.

G

You need to say something: well, it's very it's very. I tell you it's very difficult. It depends on.

F

Your own experience and what you have noticed witnessed personally designed and that's not.

F

I can't convey that with a few sentences in the meeting, so I think you know sometimes I think what.

F

We need to do prior to our actual hdc meeting, have a meeting informally where we actually communicate.

F

With each other, we can't do that outside and we can't do that. I'm not going to take the time in.

C

The meeting but in fairness to heinz and anybody else that maybe didn't speak their mind about.

C

Whatever they saw at any particular arctic proposal, when you've got the audience half.

C

The people in the audience telling you you don't have jurisdiction. It doesn't really lend itself to.

C

An honest conversation so, let's first establish the jurisdiction so that silliness stopped even.

B

If you told them right a couple times, you had no control over the army. You had the gloves on them.

D

And said that yeah yeah, so let's I can't wait to see that mirrored thing that covers up the units.

D

um So all right, my idea, then, would be to tell you to um that. We need yes.

D

We need to investigate. Art speaks if they're, even yeah, if they're, even or something like that or or.

D

Then the city needs to set up another commission yeah and that I got that when public art is is put.

D

Up uh and it's going to be part of a a meeting or a building and permit or anything like that, that.

D

It goes to them first, okay, and- and they could just um you know, refer it to us within the recognition.

B

Yeah non-binding, which will be largely supported uh like concom and tag yeah, because they'll.

C

Hopefully be qualified to do what they're asked to do. That's just an awful lot of pressure.

H

I mean you're, the only you can go to heart, qualified.

H

Aesthetic status on the commission, well I mean you may recall very early on in the project when.

F

We were given some of the um schematics to show and uh there was this fountain and then you know.

F

The uh lady who proposed all this was talking about this is what happens when you throw a stone.

F

In the pond you see the rip-off of them, so you know, I said I think at that meeting or a meeting.

F

Subsequent to this, that the whole concept of this was very pedentic, and so you have the results. You.

F

Have these granite arcs that are a block away, nobody who's walking! There will make a reference.

F

To that little fountain in the middle, oh, this is the wave you throw a stone in there, and this is.

F

What happens? It was ludicrous to me, and you know I said what is this woman thinking about, but that.

F

Was the whole tenor of it and that once you agree to that, and do that then you're stuck with that.

F

And these are the results, I'm not impressed with it at all. I think it's just. I think kindergarten.

F

Stuff, that's how I'd be all right? Well, that's all passed, but but it's as an example, I I I.

H

Understand I think, we've gone far enough. Yeah it's reenactment because it just makes me want to run.

G

Well, I just don't want us to wimp out on our our duty. It's our job, we're going to go and agree well,.

A

Let's have somebody else make that decision for us. You know oh you're going to get. I think we.

G

Just really need to gear up and say: hey we're, not no offense, but this is not working for us.

H

I I felt like it was the first time in in battle for me, because I just I I wanted to just run and.

H

Hide somewhere, I can't do that. I I got it now yeah. I got it. Let's get the jurisdictional piece.

H

Let's see if we can get help as a filter, then you guys can let loose.

G

I mean we all like john's tie right yeah. Does it make any sense.

B

Oh okay, I think also uh on that project. They swamped us. You know with art.

D

I mean you know it was like well geez. This was okay, you know, but I don't like the mirror and.

D

You know it's just where do you start the? I don't want to have necessarily the last word, but we also.

F

Have to look at the whole publication scene of the architectural field and real estate field, so.

F

Mcnabb's building and the artwork you will see will be on covers because all of those publishers.

F

Just need something for their monthly distribution to show. This is what is new.

F

And frequently it doesn't have anything to do with long-lasting quality. We are addicted to the new.

F

You know: okay, now we're into art architecture of philosophy. What's marketing all right, so I.

C

Think a segway unless somebody's got a better idea to from the the mural public art piece is.

C

Signage: uh what's the oddity we have now is that, if anybody's in the historic district and needs.

C

A variance for any of their signage, they come here if they don't need a variance which has like.

C

Almost zero to do with the design, the variance it happens to be a foot bigger or two feet, bigger.

C

It ends up in front of us. We don't see that many, but that's the oddity of the ordinance as written.

C

Lasted 30 years ago that you only come here if you need to go to the boa for your sign.

C

That's how we get the murals to begin with, because they're treated as signs because anything's a.

C

Sign in portsmouth as of 15 years ago, so murals are technically signs, no matter what's on them,.

C

And that's how they get here because they're too big to meet the sign ordinance. So they.

C

Need variances and they end up here. It's not that's how we've stumbled into the public art.

C

Starting with the tuscan deli there, so it's a good thing. We stumbled into it because now we're we're.

C

Taking it all because it's we feel it's important, maybe not all of us but most of us, so you do it.

C

uh The signs, I think I would ask you all to spend some time looking around downtown, which.

C

Is a big part of our district and see how many signs are not very sympathetic, despite being.

C

Temporary and you can take a few screws off and they're gone, they can really damage the not the.

C

The fabric with the holes, but the look and feel of the building we've had some really bad signs.

C

Installed that meet the code, because the code is dimensional, not qualitative. It's quantitative.

C

So I don't know that it doesn't make sense for us, given the turnover is not the I'll get you the.

C

Number of signs that come in on a monthly basis in the district from someone else in the planning.

C

Department, it's not like we're going to have 10 signs a month. We might have two or three in a busy.

C

Month and there'd be admin approvals in my mind, and we we would just be able to make sure they're.

C

uh Appropriately designed for the building, without it being you know, overly burdensome something to.

C

Think about not do but think about yeah. Would they end up being administrative? Why not? Where it right.

B

Because because we're going to everybody's going to have a different opinion of the sign and we're.

D

Going to discuss it and it you know right in the middle of the ad mints, that it's going to cause.

D

Trouble, I think I think you find most times when you have admin approvals. There's always.

C

Fluidity in what could be chosen to be submitted, what people choose to submit most signs that get.

C

Put downtown are not distasteful, so let's first recognize that most signs are not bad, so those.

C

Signs are going to be perfect admin approvals because nobody's going to say anything. It's the.

C

Outliers we're trying to catch and that's when you'll put your hand up and say: hey we're pulling.

C

That one out of the stack and I think you'll have less bad signs. If there's an approval process than.

C

Having none now, that's just a theory, but it's the way humans act. I have a question about that.

B

I've noticed a prolifera proliferation of neon signs. I don't know if anyone's noticed this and.

B

I'm wondering are they getting permits they're just sticking these flashing open lights inside.

B

Yes, yeah, those are those signs are not legal they're, not legal, but they're, but they're out.

C

There I understand that, but that's an enforcement issue, so so that's a different issue, though that's.

C

Enforcement that they're not going to go anywhere and get approval unless the ordinance changes, but.

C

We can't say, because people are putting windows in on sunday we're not going to regulate windows.

C

They need to be addressed, but that's a different issue. Isn't it three feet if they're back three.

D

Feet from the wind, but they aren't back through they're, not hanging in the window and they're.

B

Flashing yeah yeah and they're in they're in at least six places right now I can tell you that.

C

They're in I can kill them, so they gotta they that's a different issue. Let's.

C

So we have enforcement, we can add that to the bottom of the sheet. But let's talk about what.

C

We're talking about which is, do we want to do? We want to regulate or con signs and and.

C

We don't need the answer, I want you guys to go out and think and look around and say geez.

C

Is is this something we can handle and want to do yeah? I think it is, but that's right. I.

C

Agree with you, I think I I never could quite figure out where the dividing line was between.

D

Signs that came in front of us and signs that didn't square footage. It's boa yeah.

C

Or a freestanding where it's not allowed a type, a sign, that's not allowed on a building.

C

Let me get you guys the number for the volume. So you know I don't want 20 of them here either.

C

A month, but I don't think in the district there's that much turnover I do know that there are other.

E

Districts that have strips oh yeah, sign guidelines, standards, most historic districts, regulate science.

C

We're an exception, not a not a normal, a couple of comments to that point. If you don't mind.

H

uh I'm concerned over uh just for example, um if we drive up come into town on market street extension.

H

And the building that was that fat bellies was in yeah yeah yeah. They have a 2x4, they took the.

H

Sign down and they left the 2x4 that they had bolted to the building to even out this facade.

H

I guess for the sign to be put on. I think that's the story anyway. There's a piece of spruce, 2x4.

H

Bolted to a piece of uh granite, lentil just very attractive um the thing that bothers me. That's the.

H

Case in point, there, though, is in behind that is an anchor put into the masonry. Oh yeah, and the anchor.

H

And I think we all are aware of this mostly made out of ferrous metals yeah and they rust.

H

Over time and they cause damage to our historic fabric, now we have.

H

The great privilege of living in a community that's been around for hundreds of years, and there.

H

Are thousands of those things embedded in all of the masonry of all over town but at the very least,.

H

We could stop it from going on any further. We can't make the other ones go away, but we, if we.

H

Did review signs we'd be able to require them to use stainless steel, or at least non-fence.

C

We do that on lighting now all the time. So it's a great analogy. We're doing all this same.

C

Mind-Bending stuff, with the applicants about stainless steel on many of these same buildings,.

C

That have signs that we don't look at right below the lights. We have jurisdiction on the lights, so.

C

We do our job on the lights, but we don't have jurisdiction on the sign. So we don't talk about.

C

The signs, but they have the anchoring, calling electrical conduits. The same thing when I was a.

H

Pup these things were expensive uh today, stainless steel, fasteners are are not and there's no reason.

H

To allow it to continue to happen, I think it would be helpful if we eventually come up with some.

A

Basic guidelines, like are our interior. What are they when they're lit from their back interior.

B

If we, if we could put some basic guidelines out and say you know, these are okay, and these are not.

A

um If there's any specific materials, I know in stowe vermont every sign has to be made of wood.

A

So if we can come up with a few basic guidelines, then I think from an administrative approval.

A

We would cut out a lot of things that it's like. Why are we even looking at this? So just so, people.

C

Here, don't maybe panic when they hear about stow and wood or amherst or somewhere. I know that's not.

C

What you're saying, but I think what what we want to do is put our toe in the water right and we.

C

Want to eliminate the externalities the extremes, so so our menu is going to be pretty robust of.

C

What's acceptable because we're just trying to knock off the internally lit plastic sign.

C

That, once in a while get screwed onto a building and stuff like that, let's that's what I'm.

C

Imagining you're asking me to do is start with the you know, outer orbit and let's.

C

Let's not bite off more than we can chew and get embroiled embroidered in a you know, a problem with.

C

The chamber or the business community because we're all of a sudden being too restrictive.

C

That's not what I'm suggesting well, I think your idea of how many signs a month are we looking at.

D

Yeah, because I don't want to be here until midnight looking at signs either.

C

I think we can thread that needle and improve significantly our downtown. By doing this so.

C

Before we get into more complicated things, which we don't need to spend.

C

A ton of time on, but elevated buildings I this came out of my charleston thing in the.

C

Summer, because I was just back down there this weekend, I took some photographs of.

C

One of the buildings: that's now complete that lifted itself.

C

We are going to so before I circulate that we have properties in the south end.

C

That are very vulnerable to sea level rise and stormwater. Storm surges, salter street prey homes.

C

Where sanders is that's all really low and we've developed a higher flood elevation than fema to.

C

Protect new construction from uh coming and that that sanders lot there has been sold and.

C

Somebody's likely going to come in here in the next six months with a proposal to put a house.

C

Or two on that vacant lot and that's going to have to be higher than the houses around it because of.

C

The recognition that the water's coming it's not like it has to be five feet uh in the air, but two.

C

Feet above flood elevation, so we've got to start thinking because it's talking about the candy shop.

C

Yeah, that's just one: everybody we've got people on salter that have lost automobiles in a king's tide.

C

uh Because the water came up over the wall and they want to raise their accessory structure so.

C

We're we're going to probably have one or two of these a year for the next few years, which isn't a.

C

Lot of volume, but this is an opportunity to get ahead of it. Luckily, portsmouth isn't charleston.

C

Doesn't have this stuff happening every six weeks, the sunny day flooding, so we we need to see what.

C

Other people are doing and start, and I think in six months, you're gonna or less you're gonna see.

C

An application for somebody, that's gonna, need more than three steps to get in the front door.

C

So we gotta start thinking about how you'd retrofit some of these lower homes. When you.

C

Lift them up and what do they look like and how do they affect the character? I think that's great how.

E

Many people were on the htc when we had this uh presentation of the sustainability study. The one.

C

We did three years ago, probably not mostly, I don't know if that just presentation can be recirculated.

E

I can do that. It won't solve the problem, but it just gives some ideas of how the extent of the.

C

Problem the extent of the problem and how the consultants suggested different ways to control.

C

Some of the water proofing dry proofing, elevating relocating in the worst case scenario, yeah and.

C

Where it'll be good for those of you that didn't see it as it is, I think three years old at this.

C

Point um which areas, especially of the south end, are most vulnerable, which is kind of what I just.

C

Described that and what you were describing about the steps. That's also can be building code and.

D

So you know, I think, that the it's going to have to be.

D

More lenient standards from the building department, as well as us, if somebody has to lift.

D

Their house up a foot and a half and they have to add two steps and they're right on the street.

D

So all of a sudden, the steps are more shallow and higher, and so it's you guys can all imagine if.

C

You're, once we get through this first application, it's going to open all of our eyes as to the.

C

Complexity of this, because raising a house look compared to building a house is very expensive.

C

And the more money you need to spend the more you want to get out of it, the more you want to get out.

C

Of it means the taller, it goes to maybe park under it, and you know maybe it has to be four feet. High.

C

So let's go eight, so I can get under it because I'm spending three hundred fifty thousand dollars.

C

To lift it anyway, these things happen they're happening at charleston, they're gonna happen here.

C

It these are really expensive problems to solve, and we're going to have to start.

C

Nibbling away at it as we as the problem gets worse and the solutions sometimes.

C

Go well beyond what's required under the code yeah and then we're real problems. It's going to require.

D

Major money, hundreds of millions of dollars, this property here I'll just.

C

Pass it around this property here, uh the house beside it on the front page.

C

um So they're all double-sided, except for the one you've got right, and that was the original.

C

That's all I got um so the house, this house to the right on the landscape.

C

The landscape, drawing they were both the same height you. I took a lousy picture because you.

C

Can't really see how much shorter the one in the in the background is, but they raised this house.

C

I think five feet because it was already three yeah and they put those stairs uh in there like.

C

That, but that that was a three million dollar. It's a masonry house, but it was three million.

C

Dollars to lift it, it was estimated at like one million dollars when they started the project, so.

C

Not cheap, I like the front pillars going through the gate sort of they have their.

D

Elaborate, you know side entrances yeah I mean like we might think is the gate, but it's actually you.

B

Know, that's how you get it on their porch there yeah to get to the veranda, and it's.

D

Amazing that the whole area, the battery- I don't know how that's so survive. No, I got it here so.

C

Can you guys, I inserted in here charleston's design, guidelines for elevating historic buildings.

C

Read it at your leisure and then let's, let's revisit this and it'll be a good primer. I have.

C

A couple of other documents from charleston, so all we have coming up- is the shaw warehouse right well,.

C

That's yes, as well being raised and picked up and moved and raised uh okay, and that will come here.

C

You're right john, so we're gonna have a couple next year. So let's start understanding some of the.

C

uh Trade-Offs, we go back to uh society. Yeah sorry yeah, like hardy board, yep.

B

So I have a question: is that allowed in any way on the front of a building in downtown in downtown.

C

Yeah, or rather I know it's not allowed on an alley downtown, could you could would we approve that.

C

Maybe maybe, rather than go to an alley, I think I would, I think, she's saying, would we versus have we.

C

Have we have we, don't I don't know, but let me let me say: let me try and answer what I think you're.

C

Getting at uh obviously with getting it with hardy plank no, but what's the house? Okay, someone called.

C

Me and asked me about it specifically, and I said I'd ask tonight: well, I'd have to look that up so.

C

I I could, I would tell you sitting here: it's quite possible: okay, okay, it's not impossible!.

C

I've been here 10 years, hardy has incrementally gone from the back to the sides. Sometimes the.

C

Front depending look, you guys are all we all know: you've got focal contributing, non-contributing and.

C

Intrusive buildings, right everywhere, you look so why? Wouldn't you triage of course, you're.

C

Going to triage kids a triage, so you've got the back of the building the side of the building.

C

The front of the building, even on all of those classifications, you're triaging, again you've.

C

Got something that's contributing, but so beat up, it needs to be replaced or that it's got no.

C

Visibility versus some visibility versus a lot, so these are the things we all deal with with every.

C

Application: that's why there is no jurisprudence to say you get what the other guy got. You're, not.

C

The same thing, so the reason I put the hearty or the cementitious siding on here is: we seem to be.

C

We seem to be moving as you'd expect through time with and different composition of membership.

C

So we've got the cultural trend of portsmouth, plus the shift of membership and the chemistry.

C

You guys all create with one another as individuals, which can be a very different.

C

Place than where you think you'd get, I mean I I said here, I'm the common denominator for 10 years.

C

That has seen 40 of you move through here and there's only nine at one time right. So there.

C

There is a shift and a composition and a chemistry that plays itself out as you'd expect, with how you.

C

Interpret how to deal with those situations, and the hardy is like azak isn't is- is fluid through.

C

Time as to it's finding its way to the front of the house, I guess is why I put it on here. These.

C

Artificial materials are moving from the back of house rule to the sides and then the bottom.

C

And and then coming up to the deck and then maybe going up the sides depending on what side.

C

Street you're on and maybe that's fine, but it's something worth you know talking about because.

C

We gotta we've got to talk about it. I think we review them, as you know, where.

D

They sit the context myself and how visible the sides are. Yeah. Okay. I think I would also.

A

Think that whether it's a contributing building yeah has got to be a key factor as well, because.

A

I can't imagine allowing a whole lot of this sort of siding on some of them. Those beautiful.

A

Buildings on middle street that are just you know, they're, just so beautiful that it does.

D

Not go on colonial structures, any anything that doesn't you know, colonials their walls. They may.

D

Look flat, but you know they're not you know, and it doesn't do that very well. You know it's just.

D

Besides the fact that it's not face nailed, so it just looks, and I think that, like vinyl.

D

Siding yeah a lot of a lot of people try to make the argument. Well, it's going to last longer and.

A

Less maintenance and all of that- and I I don't buy that because if you keep up with your paint.

A

You don't allow the water to get in, and so it's it's because people let the maintenance, go.

A

Didn't go down and- and we talk about that in our design standards, we can maintain a building well.

A

You know, but that people will just paint it once and then, 15 years later, it's peeling off.

A

And everything's rotting and they say: well, you see it's it's because I had to put wood up. It's.

A

Like no, because you refused to paint it every you know five or ten years or whatever it is.

D

Have you seen the uh on the corner of dennitt street and and maplewood avenue coming down.

D

Dennis street that first building on the left, it's a, I think it's a duplex, it's a it's a 1780.

D

1790, colonial and um you know it's got a pyramid over the the front door and.

D

The water has been leaking into the side of the house from the roof over the.

D

uh It's the first house on the left if, as you turn on to dennis street, it's blue.

D

Yeah, it's like this. You know the clapboards are all gone like you know,.

D

One pink, pink and then there's a hole. It's just been going on. I just look at so I'm.

D

Thinking, oh boy, they're going to come in and want hardy, so maybe just before can I yeah yeah.

C

Well, you were going to say something I just maybe I can provide a better answer.

C

Than I did as to why it's on the list, I think I think the thing to think about.

C

With cemeticia, siding, really isn't any different than removal and replacement of chimneys, putting.

C

In faux chimneys putting in simulated divided light windows, it can be a steady erosion of.

C

What you're trying to protect and the cumulative effects, are you end up not being what you were and.

C

That's probably more, why I put it there, because there is this pernicious.

C

Byproduct of nibbling away at the authentic fabric, they're faux claberts yeah.

E

Yeah so again, I'm not suggesting anything more than this is a good forum for for looking at.

C

Ourselves in the mirror- and this is a hard job for you guys to tell somebody- that's standing there.

C

Some of the time that no you've got to go out and use an authentic, especially windows, right, it's a.

C

Really hard conversation, but when you replace that 100 year, old or 80 year, old or 200 year old window.

C

You know that the windows that are going in there are headed for a dumpster in 30 to 40 years.

C

Because the gas is going to leak and and let alone it's going to look like a single pane of glass.

C

That's oil sheening when you drive by it rather than the the the wavy glass.

C

For for the rest of time, because you're never going to replace what's there unless you get.

C

Real lucky and people spend real money 50 years from now putting reproduction glass in.

C

So I don't have the answer, but I think it's worth recognizing what you all struggle with.

C

Meeting to meeting year to year is it's easy to think everything is better than last year, but.

C

Is it you know we're going to have to struggle through it, because in some situations, cementitious.

G

Signings required for fire rating yeah, that's what this was so yeah. We can't just say wow.

C

I don't disagree, but you can put den glass underneath uh wood siding and meet your fire.

C

Rated separation, a lot of the time it's about how it affects the trim and the lip the wall.

C

Coming out out, but you know we we all, we need to educate each other. You guys especially.

C

Need to educate me on techniques that can be utilized to avoid the building code, ruining.

C

Our historic district, because we didn't roll up our sleeves to see there is actually a substitute.

C

Right because often there is, and it may cost more and be more labor-intensive, but sometimes.

C

It's got to be worth it um what's, of course, what's happening too, is the egress windows and.

D

The only way that um you know most small colonials, especially on the second floor with.

D

The smaller windows don't meet 4.7 square feet right, you know, and so our inspector is allowing.

D

What is essentially a casement window, they allow a casement, but in portsmouth we allow.

C

A smaller window because they can wave it for a historic structure. We will allow a smaller.

C

Opening than the 4.3 or whatever- oh yes, yes, if it has that particular hardware on the.

D

Outswing encasement window and you know, there's some other regulations as far as distance off.

D

The floor and stuff like that, but um essentially that that, that's being that's, been forced upon us.

D

To to a degree, but they didn't have to waive that some double hungs they're allowing to stay in.

C

Because they meet a 3.5 where they don't have to and and the other thing is when.

C

You've got the casement window, there's a big difference between a green mountain or.

D

A double hung uh that looks double hung and it's a casement versus an anderson. It's a fabulous one. So.

C

You know again triage right yeah, um you know uh when we had the.

D

Another building inspector and I'm specifically thinking of like roger and such you know, yeah.

D

They made exceptions, you know for older homes and um it was good and then all of a sudden, it's like.

D

Oh no, this is not fire code, this doesn't work and all that yeah you know, but we have had some.

C

You're right, it's not like it used to be, but it's not as bad as it could be, and we need.

C

A second line of defense, which is the highest quality casement window, that looks double, hung.

C

As possible- and I think we're we're largely in that place- but you're right- that casement window.

C

Is not on the list and it's something we struggle with for six of my 10 years and maybe it's just.

C

Been we've familiar with that green mountain I've seen them yes, professionally. I've. I I've lived.

H

A very very uh lucky uh life I had people like roger and his like in other communities uh that.

H

I, because of the kind of business that I performed, I never had those kinds of problems. Everything was.

H

How do we make this work rather than you have to do it? This way I was old, it was back in the.

H

Old days or whatever I was very lucky very, very lucky, I never had a problem. I feel good now that.

D

I'm out of the business, but I think more and more we're going to run into a situation where.

G

The composite materials are going to get better they're going to get more stable.

G

They're going to be very difficult to tell the difference from eight feet away.

G

You know from driving by from and they're going to resist, rot they're going to resist. You know.

G

They're going to be less maintenance, and you know I I think we need to be open-minded and.

G

Judge it on a case-by-case basis, I'm hoping for that time with that that the boral material comes.

H

In a cloudboard-like material, rather than a the quarter-inch thick piece of sheet that the hearty.

H

People provide that the borla, where actually they'll, be able to cast it into a shape.

H

That looks something like we might think of as a cloud board, so it would be tapered yeah and.

H

And, and that will be at eight feet, uh a real contender, I'm hoping that that comes that will.

H

Solve a lot of the compromises and the making dues, and if we do it sideways and all of that.

H

I'm hopeful I'm hopeful that there's a better day coming in the future. There is.

B

So, let's, let's go to the champions league, you know similar to windows and you know we're.

C

We haven't had a lot of chimney activity this year, but it seems like the previous three or four years.

C

Everybody's taking chimneys down left and right and then we, if my memory is serving me right.

C

We've your project was one of the early ones in my time here, karen that was only four years ago. Oh.

C

It's five yeah. We put the faux chimney on uh that building and there wasn't a removal of a chimney.

C

It was a reconstruction of one that we saw in the historic photo. If I recall it wasn't one in it.

C

State street yeah, so I think um who did your uh your designs? Oh, what's her name, oh and yeah, and.

B

Whitney and she came up with a really good spec and came up with a really good chimney. Design and.

C

When we saw it built we're like wow, that's the way to do it. That's the gold standard for doing.

C

uh You've got it now. I think uh martin worked on one on south on northwest street right that little.

C

Cape, the second last house, it's excellent, you know it looks really convincing. It looks durable.

C

It looks heavy what's the process, what what did they use? Well, I provided a detail if you.

G

Remember it provided a section and the last part of corbiling was actual brick.

G

So yeah and then there was thin brick used, so it's still fake, but it looks terrific. It really does so.

C

I think one idea is, you know this doesn't get to the issue of loss of character and faux chimneys.

C

But it so maybe starting at the bottom of the list, the third line of defense. If you're going to have.

C

A faux chimney, that's a really good detail to have in the design guidelines. Should you approve.

C

A faux chimney so starting at the bottom, instead of questioning you know what we're doing in in.

C

Chimney, removal or replacement it is a character defining feature. We all know that.

D

I think we're doing a pretty good job on it. Nick um you know, I'm not saying we don't need.

D

To discuss it, but every time it comes up it, we do discuss it quite a bit and you know.

D

Everybody gets their licks in and I think it's I think, we're handling it pretty well.

D

So part of me wants to think of of the chimneys much the way we think of the windows and and other.

A

Things where we say the first step is, can it be repaired and I'm not sure that we're pushing back.

A

On people enough to say they just come in and say: well, it's not an active chimney. You know we're.

A

Not using it for venting of anything and and it's causing leaks, and I want to get rid of it.

A

And that usually has to do with a chimney that has to do with an oil burner or something that was you.

A

Know put in later: it's not because there's a fire, an actual colonial fireplace in the bottom of the.

A

Building but I'm not sure we're asking, have you looked into what needs to be done to repair this.

A

Instead, it's more like: well, you know how: how much does it contribute to the building, and you know.

A

Is it, is it special or is it not special and shouldn't we shouldn't? We say: let's ask that.

A

Question first: have you investigated what it takes to to make the chimney work, so I have a theory.

C

That supports john's conclusion, at least, as I think he's articulated in this few words, I I think.

C

You know I've been here 10 years, the first six or seven years and he's been here the whole time.

C

Chimney's work, and so is reagan. Chimneys have been going down left and right years ago. All.

C

Over the place- and I think your project was one of the first ones where we experimented with a.

C

Faux chimney and because that sounds disney, fake foe, that's right! Well, the things on porter street.

C

uh Were there earlier, those are much earlier than my time, forestry, but I was adding it. I.

C

Know you know, I understand that, but it's still for a preservationist. It's still kind of fake.

C

Fake and faux right, it's not a real chimney and it doesn't have anything inside the building. It's.

C

Really fake, it's decorative it it's it's kind of wrong if you're a hardcore preservationist. I love.

B

It I'm not that so um I think it's a good example of the feedback loop to the marketplace when.

C

Somebody came along on newcastle ave to remove a tall skinny chimney to get more floor. Space inside.

C

Which is why just about every other chimney was ever removed in the preceding five years.

B

Yeah, you guys don't underestimate your ability, despite the difficulty of that conversation and.

C

It's it's one of maybe two or three cases in that two-year span where the the marketplace gets. The.

C

The residents, the state, the shareholders, get the message that gee, maybe the time to remove chimneys.

C

Is of yesteryear- and these guys are going to give me a hard time so that person decided to change.

C

Their mind and walk away, you know she's still in the house, but she decided to abandon the project.

C

To me that was a good result, but not a nice way to get there, but sometimes that's the way.

C

You move the needle and then the message on the street is good luck. Unless it's a real tertiary.

C

uh Chimney number four on a big house that no one can see that that's eligible for removal, so.

C

I think it's a good example where you guys have done your job and you're right, you're doing a.

C

Good job, because maybe you weren't before and you corrected it and now people are not coming in here.

D

Asking for a chimney every meeting you know I'm thinking of a time when I was wrong and it was on.

D

Pleasant street- and it was one of the small houses coming into portsmouth um from pleasant street.

D

Before you get to the mark wentworth home on the right-hand side- and it was an ann whitney project.

D

It's a little house set in sideways and I think at one time it had chimneys. It had two chimneys.

D

On the ends- and there was only one left and she wanted to remove it, and I was outraged.

D

And I said no, no, this is the original chimney and I made a stand and I think it was seven to one.

D

You know, and anyway she got to remove it and then she, you know her plan was to build a faux chimney.

D

In the center of the house and it's there now and I looked at that thing, the other day.

D

And it still looks good and, as a matter of fact, I had a little bit of trouble identifying exactly.

D

Which house it was, and so I was wrong to me uh now it it looks like it's always been there.

D

Should it have been placed there, it was, I think, something to do with the bathroom, and it was this.

D

You know, and the chimney just you know, took up too much room as they often do. You know people.

D

Didn't care in the old days if they wanted to be warm, that's all they thought about. You know.

C

So maybe the solution for maybe the solution for the adjustment to a better place, which is, I think,.

C

Where you are remember the people on court street that came in with a chimney in the back of an out.

C

Building attack attached part of an addition to a historic home, and you know maybe that one.

C

Was maybe that was uh one where you're on the fence, but let's make sure our design guidelines.

C

Say what we want them to say about the chimneys, because I'm not I'm not sure sitting here what.

C

They say in relation to how things have changed from when the design guidelines were written.

C

Which was the era of chimney, removal and sometimes replacement to where we are now, which is sparingly.

C

Removing chimneys, which I think is probably a good place to be. You made a comment about the newcastle.

H

Avenue uh request on the newcastle ball street or one of those yeah, um and that that one sort.

H

Of bothered me because I have a way of looking at chimneys as being kind of defining elements on.

H

The interiors of buildings and you we speak about the cornice work and you talked about the drilling.

H

Holes and whatnot that the impact of of the chimney on the interior of a building has profound.

H

Effect because it was a significant element, as as the chairman has said, what struck me about the.

H

Newcastle avenue project was that they had, they were looking for more interior space. It was not.

H

An argument about whether or not they wanted the chimney they wanted the interior space, but that.

H

Building on that site had adequate room for what we would refer to as a traditional extension to.

H

The building one that we've seen done hundreds of times in our historic district, where this is.

H

One of the ways that these buildings were added on to to allow for communication around the fact that.

H

There was a chimney there and she had plenty of room to do that, so it seemed highly to me highly.

H

Justifiable to say that that chimney should be retained. She had a no desire to put one back and.

H

I'm not even sure one could build one that it's very tough yeah, very, very tall. He had a twin.

B

It had a challenge and there was another one that was going to be hard to match. All of those things.

H

But to me the thing that that was that I thought we were accomplishing was to be able to keep the.

H

Floor plan of the house from having been hacked up and allowing for plenty of opportunity for.

H

That additional extra square footage that she felt she needed to have. I felt quite justified.

H

In in digging my heels in on that one, but it still, I think, was for everybody, and you know very well.

H

It was uncomfortable to tell people to know yeah, so the other ones are in the other. Building that.

A

I think we may or may not have gone. The right way on is the pumpkin house on the corner of pleasant.

A

And court, because there I think paige made the point that the the chimneys on that building.

A

Spoke to what was going on inside the building and by allowing that chimney to be taken down.

A

That that that history inside that building is now gone and but you know we so this is a.

A

Situation where, yes, our purview was the outside, but we know darn well the decisions that we make.

A

About the outside are are affecting what's going on, and that was a big uh kitchen fireplace that.

B

Was attached to that chimney? Yeah I mean I'm sure, that's gone. The big old chimneys generally.

E

We don't usually see those being asked to take down and we don't even consider it because they.

E

Really are character, defining features of these old buildings, but no nick to your point I mean.

E

You've got a correct assessment. It was for a while there early on in my tenure. It was. We had a lot of.

E

Chimneys being taken down without any faux replacement, so it was, and we struggled with it for.

E

A long time- and I think um for whatever reason now, maybe it's we've discouraged people from.

E

Removing the chimneys, which is not a bad thing, I think that we, you have because remember I'm your.

C

Representative right for better or worse, people do come in and talk to me and ask for guidance.

C

And my guidance is, is anchored on the ordinance and then your decision-making and who you are.

C

And what you did last month or last year and if you've taken down eight chimneys in the last two.

C

Years, it's hard for me to tell the person you know: you're not gonna, be able to take a chimney.

C

Down I'd never say to somebody, you can't do it, but I'd say it's highly unlikely. You're gonna.

C

Be able to remove that chimney, it's a primary feature, it's character, defining it's big. It's.

C

It's so your decision making affects your ability to telegraph. What's going to happen in the future.

C

Through the planning department, because most people do come in doing something like that.

E

I'm pretty sure it's. I know that in the guidelines we say you know, retention.

E

Of chimneys, but if we need to strengthen that language, let's have a collective look.

C

And we should do the same with windows right, let's go back and I'm sure it's there and I'm.

C

Sure, a bigger part of our problem is the marketing aspect, not what it says.

C

In respect to those two items, but let's make sure that not just assume it's marketing.

D

So what are you uh looking for from us? So should we all be.

D

Yeah, you should should we all uh that's our your bible. You should all know that document and I bet.

F

We don't fail a test if we actually did one right now, including me honestly, you're asking us to make.

D

Up our own changes and send them to you, or are we going to have another meeting like this and then.

D

We're just going to end up discussing everything again we're going to do whatever we need to do. I.

C

Think you should. We should all start by doing some homework and make sure we've.

C

Looked at the design guidelines again because I I'm confident uh a lot of us don't, including.

C

Me look at them enough, so, let's, let's make sure we understand what our guidelines yeah exactly.

C

Our marketing material is before we charge off uh in a certain direction and if we need to have.

C

A meeting before two meetings to solve it or three meetings, we'll know when we get there. I can't tell.

C

You sitting here, I know I can't solve all these things without another meeting. That's for sure.

C

Yeah like this right, so if you're getting the tone of the group, you know, my minority report would be.

G

You know I don't mind a chimney coming down if it's a chimney that was not original to the house.

G

That is serving a boiler that it's in the middle of a floor plan, that's disrupting. If it's.

G

Not that integrated, like some of the colonial chimneys, that we've seen.

G

I can be receptive to the idea of it coming down, but that's just.

G

My well and that's good, because you just threw three criteria in there and I'm convinced half the.

C

Group wouldn't agree with one of them, which is it disrupts the floor plan. It's very rare. They don't.

C

If you're trying to expand your floor so that that that's, why we're.

C

So, let's all see what's in there and work through this and I'll do my best with my notes to take a.

C

Stab at some of this, I'm not asking you to us to do all the same thing independently.

C

But I need your help to look at our own marketing material that we have now in the design guidelines.

C

And then come back okay with that, let's go to your favorite topic, which is the solar panels.

C

uh And so so my thought on the solar panels is um I'm in agreement on the historic buildings.

D

That it they should be in in, we should use sort of the back of the house or side of the house type of.

D

Criteria that they should be located, where they're in especially not on the front of the house.

D

I think what I'm thinking more of is the central business district, and I'm thinking that we should.

D

Be used to looking at.

D

Pertinences coming up from a roof, we've all seen ventilation equipment, it's all over the place.

D

And I think that we should just say: okay, those could be solar panels. So what I'm suggesting.

D

Is that we should really relax, if not encourage solar panels on flat roofed downtown buildings.

D

And that's essentially what I feel I I feel that at this time, in our country.

D

That we, you know, should be making our little contribution and if we could just.

D

Stop putting bars on every roof and and have solar panels up there. Then I'm a happy person.

D

um Bars, meanwhile, sorry alcohol, you mean yeah. Okay, I mean everybody looks at it.

D

I'm sorry, I know everybody looks at their roof and- and we saw this with the ac hotel um we had uh on.

D

That hotel, at the end of it by 3s art space, it was only a three-story building. Wasn't it? You know we.

D

Dropped it down. I think it went from five to four yeah anyways. It was much it was a.

D

Bit shorter and then all of a sudden they came back to us and- and you know, suggested.

D

Well, we've got a great idea: we could put a rooftop, restaurant and and bar up there.

D

Why don't I say bars anyway, that's an old term. Now isn't it, but why would you put the solar on.

D

The roof of the of the restaurant, I would yeah I'd put it on it. Yeah, it's a good thing. Yeah. You know.

C

They're, well, I'm not just necessarily saying anything against the bars up there. What I'm.

F

Suggesting is if you've got a flat roof. Yeah and you've got your uh where your maintenance people.

D

Have to go, that's all set and straightened out probably has a fence around it because of today's.

D

Code that the rest of the roof uh be solar, paneled, yeah yeah. So that's the bar. That's made flat roof.

E

I think we've done a pretty good job with solar panels.

E

We haven't had too many honestly, I'm surprised that we haven't had, but to his point we don't.

E

Have any that's not a good job, the flat in the central business right? We do. I swear.

B

I think when, when they've come before us, I, yes, I would love to see more applications, but.

E

For residential homes and things like that, I think that we've done a pretty good job of.

E

Keeping the standard that it's not on the facade, it's not on the main main viewing.

E

Portion of the building like the marsey street one, I think that so I think our design guidelines.

C

Yes, they do say they say what you've done. uh There's still some pain and suffering in in.

C

In getting that to happen uh amongst the group and with the applicants, so I I wouldn't disagree that.

C

I think you're doing a pretty good job on the single families. I think john's point is totally.

C

Different though we got all these flat, roofs uh and none of them have solar panels that I know of.

C

Of any new construction and even asked right: well, they don't ask, but we we maybe don't market either.

C

Back to our material we could and the this might make it a requirement.

B

That's that encourages oh, I definitely don't go for that, but doesn't that encourage more flat.

B

Roofs than we're trying to get out of the flat roofs, and so if we we're not doing a very good job.

H

Yeah we haven't had a flat roof so but dedicated, but even our classic mansards have a flat roof.

H

On the top yeah, so then, let's, let's be you're, not wrong. That's a conversation worth having about the.

C

Future roofs, but to john's point again, everything that's been done in 10 years is flat and there's.

C

A lot out there and there's no solar on it, and it doesn't mean you can just I'm not advocating you.

C

Just stick it on willy-nilly, but there's there's some big buildings down there that you would not.

C

See the solar on if it was not hanging off the side of the building or near the near the cornice.

E

So, are you saying we should just make like? Are you saying you incentivize them by making them.

E

Just administrative approvals or something what I don't know I don't know, but I don't first me nick.

C

Is saying I don't know the answer to that he's raising the issue. I think it's a good issue. I'm.

C

Not sure how to solve it, but I would say to you: we need a performance standard, so it doesn't end.

C

Up being a nightmare to look at, uh but I think there's I've been on many of the roofs to look.

C

At the mechanicals- and it seems like there's room to do maybe less than he might be thinking.

C

From me, but there's nothing there and there's got to be some place for solar and we have a.

C

Lot of buildings we've approved some built, some not built some coming that we we should look at.

C

Our design guidelines and, at a minimum, uh welcome the prospect of doing it on these new buildings.

G

Can I speak to this? It's my favorite subject: yeah. I know it is yeah. I was hoping the only.

G

Good solar panel is the ones you don't see and we have solar panels on top of the brick market.

G

I hate the damp things: they don't they're over promised and under delivered.

C

We don't see them yet on the brick market. So just right, you know I want everybody to know that right.

G

And the reason we don't see them on these flat, roofs is because it snows here you know and and.

G

It's not practical, they're, they're, horrible and they're, not there yet they're they're made in.

G

China, mostly 98 of the time, they're full of bad chemicals. I think that's the one thing that the.

D

President is um urging that we manufacture. Last president, the earlier president tried that too.

B

The early president tried to do that too, and he paid the price for that. They really don't. Last.

B

Very long, they're very inefficient, and you know we we stopped using them over at the shipyard because.

G

They just weren't paying off so hey I'd, love to see a point in time where solar has you know, lives.

G

Up to its promise, but I don't want to encourage, I don't want to see solar panels on the north.

G

Church or any kind of contribution, I'm not saying that nobody's ever not playing when you start.

G

Saying it's about time and we're in a crisis. It is about time. Then you start, then you start that was.

G

When you start getting radical, you know.

H

All right uh have you ever seen any of these uh solar shingles yeah. Yes, those look.

G

Very promising but they're not they're, still inefficient they're, not here yeah they're, not here.

H

I I I I've heartened by your comments earlier I I was hoping you'd speak up about this. I I'd like to.

H

To continue in in the vein that we have at this point being extraordinarily stringent and cherry.

H

About what? What amount of solar perils because of their intrusiveness, their their semi-permanence.

H

And and hope that once again in in the future in a near future in a very near future that a solar.

H

Panel that we can accept can come along, I'm not against that idea of having that. But I just don't.

H

I've not seen anything that I said wow I'd really like to have that on my house right, but how much.

C

Again, in fairness to john, uh I don't normally defend worry about john, but I'm going to because.

C

What he expressed tonight is a little different than what he's expressed in.

C

The past and it's importantly different to my ears, he's not talking about the north church.

C

He's not talking about houses in the south end he has in the past, but he's not tonight.

B

We're talking about flat roof buildings that are likely going to be in a dumpster.

C

At the same speed as the solar panel is going to degrade, uh so you know, and if the solar gets.

C

If the solar gets better in in 10 or 15 years, just like the simulated divided lights, we keep.

C

Putting in in these windows that are going in a dumpster because they're junk, but they work.

C

Now simulated divided lights are in well tell me the dumpster they're not going to last 200.

C

Years like the window, they're replacing you know that so they're temporary and it if you know a.

C

Mortgage is 30 years if they last that long to you, it might not be temporary, but we do a lot of stuff.

C

That's temporary and you know you can debate the efficiency of these things. I'm sure that's.

C

Like buying a german car or a east german car, uh there's a big difference in solar panels and I.

C

Bet not all of them are inefficient if you really want to help the environment super insulate, your.

G

Home, that's far more efficient, far more well, I think for john's point, I'm totally happy to.

E

Encourage solar panels on flat roofs with the rest of the mechanicals that aren't visible and.

E

You can't see, but they are visible, every flat roof building I mean I'm looking up and I can just see.

D

Even the new building that was just completed by mr kane there on maplewood avenue and he's got.

D

That seven foot high screen around the roof. You know that was supposed to hide everything. I can.

D

See these big stainless steel things sticking up from it and actually on mr wilson's bank building.

D

The prov bank, you know- and he made really a big deal about that- that rounded uh he was going to.

D

Have an oval shaped enclosure that was going to cover up all of the air conditioner condensers and.

D

Stuff- and I see him- I can see him now- I can see a stat coming up. That's about eight or ten feet. High.

E

But if solar panel is not a stack, so it should be, it would be like that high. It should be more.

E

Easily hidden, no, but yes, I just want to say that I think that we just have to sort of not be outraged.

D

If you happen to catch a glimpse of them, well, I'm going to I'm going to add to your argument.

C

Because I it sounded like both things were being were being presented in there, but it I agree with.

C

You that, unless you're standing right in front of the buildings where you cannot see on the roof.

C

When you're near them, when you get away from them, because we still have so many.

C

Open surface parking lots that allow you to see a cross blocks from urban.

C

Renewal, those will disappear over time and it'll get harder to see those roofs.

C

But the roofs, your point I think, you're making is the roofs, are full of clutter.

C

And if they're clutter, what's beautiful about them anyway, I would argue you may actually be.

C

Able to use the solar panels to soften the the clutter on these roofs because they're not pretty.

C

And even if you don't make it better, it will disappear. Just like the stuff. That's.

C

On the roof now disappears just like the three transformer cans on the pole outside that you.

C

Drive by every day and you no longer see will disappear, so maybe the solar is actually a way.

C

To mitigate the roofs and the junk we put on them, if it's done right believe me, I'm I'm.

B

I'm more conservative than dave on these things. I may not sound it, but so you know that's that's.

D

That's I just want to say how did I get? This way was looking at the mcintyre building and there are.

D

Solar panels, on top of the mcintyre building, do you know when they were installed? 1976.

D

Jimmy carter had those panels put up there on that federal building and probably many other.

D

Federal buildings building and as soon as 1980 came along and another president came along, who.

D

Happened to favor oil. He stopped all of the solar panels. They weren't functioning, they shut them.

D

Down they're still sitting up there because it probably cost too much money to take them off.

D

Those are big ones, those are the ones that the coolant goes through. Something like that. It was.

D

A I think it was the low point in our one of the low points that we've had in the last 30 40 years.

D

In our country's history, because we had the opportunity to continue on and we didn't.

B

Go ahead, I'm kidding no, I just want to add a foot by hit neck to what we have been.

F

Accustomed to see visually, you know we don't talk frequently about the hbec equipment that has been.

F

On these roofs for years and years and years, we don't talk about these little telecommunication.

F

Antennas that you see everywhere now we don't talk that much about restaurant kitchen exhausts.

F

Because we're just used to them, so um we we, um we discard a lot of these objects.

F

That we could look at just as critically as a solar panel now, but we don't because we have.

F

Become used to them, uh so I think I just want us to become aware of the way we see things and.

F

How we see them, that's how we create that's, how we feel yeah yeah that was trying to make that.

C

Point I mean I going way back. I would prefer to see straight cards in.

F

Portsmouth and cars, so maybe someday we'll get there that'd be great.

C

Yeah but let's uh I'll make an effort to look at the there is a solar section. It's very small.

C

Let's have a look at it again. I apologize. I haven't done all that before I got here, but.

C

Let's look I'll look at that. You should look at that. Let's see if it needs any adjustment or not.

C

um Where are we now? You know, I had blanket approvals on here only because I think we.

C

Might want to consider I like blanket approvals. I think they make sense, but I think we need a.

C

Sunset clause, so we don't tie the hands of the future htc if we choose the wrong solar.

C

Panel because they're made in china instead of somewhere else, uh let's, let's make sure, let's.

C

Make sure what we do see it's a slippery works over time. There are the windows at the rockingham.

C

It it was a bit of a mess there when we tried to clean it up a few years ago, and I think we.

C

Did a good job cleaning it up, but you can see there's still some inefficiency and and.

C

What is or equal, you know and who's making that determination, if anderson's no longer in business.

C

So that's all I wanted to unless you have other stuff to add to blanket approvals. I think a.

C

Sunset clause is not a bad idea, so they're not forever anyway. Anybody agree or disagree.

H

I was on the commission when we first started the blanket approval on the rockingham hotel um it. It.

H

Made sense I felt like and and I'd I'm stupid, I wasn't looking for forward at all. I looked.

H

Backwards, a lot, which is why we do and- and uh I thought that really what we were at- was a break.

H

Point of everyone that owned one of those units was going to swap out their sash because the stuff.

H

That was put in or the condition it was in was all fairly uniform. I had no idea that it was going to.

H

Be 30 years, hence- and people were still going to be swapping out windows and the manufacturer and.

H

Supplier that we had given the blanket approval for was gone and never anticipated that happening.

H

At all, so I'll take blame for that. One: okay, we'll fix it yeah there you go thanks a lot. It's not all.

D

You yeah, so we already did the downtown sign review on my little list here and then we can.

C

Go to anybody else's left the four step design process. I actually think it works. I just think.

C

We fall out of sometimes have it, and- and maybe I don't do a good enough job prepping. The applicant.

C

Because they're coming in with architectural style, when they're dealing with massing and.

D

It's because they're trying to come up with a massing. That's not very.

C

Clean so they want to buttress it with hey yeah. But it's going to look like this, so it'll actually.

C

Be cool and mark would always bring his landscape yeah. What the heck's the story is something yeah.

H

Yes, I think my my complaint about the massing that that comes in front of us is that it comes fire.

A

Complete- and it comes with all these- you know the bells and the whistles and the trees yeah.

A

Everything- and you know to to kane's credit when he did the maplewood project they brought naked.

A

Different shapes turned in different places, and you know this way and that way, and they actually.

A

Gave us an opportunity to react to different sizes and shapes and placements, and I think that we.

A

We're allowing way too many people to skip over that, and then they not they lock themselves in.

A

And they try to lock us in by right by jumping and talking about the trolls.

C

And I don't know who that was, you know, I think it would also be a good idea if we set some.

A

Kind of standard in the renderings, with or without landscaping, because yes, the landscaping it's it's.

A

Nice to know where you think the landscaping might be 20 years from now, if all of those trees survive.

A

And somebody's willing to keep them up and make sure that they end up. Where they're supposed to be.

A

But in those first few years the things are like this big and half of them don't survive.

C

Again to mccain's credit on the maplewood avenue project, what they've done with that landscaping.

A

That plaza looks fantastic and when those trees grow in it's just going to look even better. But.

A

We didn't approve that building with a whole lot of that landscaping in the renderings hiding.

A

All sorts of things and trying to prove to us that the building isn't going to look five stories tall.

A

Because there's going to be this, you know mature tree in front and but I'm the first person to say.

A

Like I did in the um the house on maplewood avenue the one we talked about last week.

A

Or the week before, if you can keep mature trees that are already there.

A

You can you can hide a big building, you know, there's those apartment buildings on.

A

Miller that you don't even see because the trees are as tall as the building is and there's you.

A

Know there's several stories tall, but if you took all those trees down, the things would stand out.

A

Like it must have been outrageous when they built portsmouth apartments, you know that brick building.

B

That's like 1920. yeah, but but you know the trees are mature, but you have to. I don't think these.

A

Corporate owners of these buildings are uh dedicated to making sure that those trees.

A

Get to be as tall as they do because they put they put disposable trees in they put things that are.

A

Wedged into a tiny sidewalk and the roots are going to outgrow it, and, and once they have the.

A

Approval and the building is built, they just knock it down, and now we don't have that, and I.

E

Think to your point um about the renderings with all this landscaping at the beginning,.

E

Yeah, I I believe it's a it's a tactic that the developers and architects use to show.

E

Us a pretty picture of what it's going to look like, and I think we have to it's that. A better.

B

We do we need to be clearer there. This is this. You can't show us this in the beginning, it's what we.

F

In the industry actually call eye candy yeah, it's uh and I see it frequently and it really.

F

Unnerves me, you know you should come up with a schematic design, schematic volumes. That explains.

F

The program within the site, even without any window details you just want to see the massing.

F

And the descriptions can be given such that it makes sense to us or doesn't make sense to us.

F

And so frequently we'll also get into the language, and I think in one of the projects, uh the.

F

Applicants were talking about viewing corridors now, if I stand on one corner of the intersection.

F

And look at the other corner of the intersection. I don't call that a viewing corridor.

F

But the language is there and you we get sucked into this, you know and it really uh well it just.

A

If I hear the word activate- oh my god, one more time.

B

We're activating the rooftop yeah about can I address this. I feel totally different about.

G

When someone shows up with a marshmallow, I can't tell what the hell it's going to be. I mean.

G

We had talked about the rockingham hotel if that came to us as a massing study and just.

G

A white block, we'd say no way, it's too big, can't it wouldn't work. And yet it's one of our prized.

G

Buildings in town I need to, I need, I mean it's like a it's like a a large person, you put them.

G

In a pin straight suit, but the suit it looks different if you put them in a white suit or.

G

A black you're gonna get a different effect. So to me, a white block is not telling me anything.

G

So fade it and ask for a shade: it's just. I think it's misleading and it's it's a waste of a session.

G

And I I really feel totally different about how, if you had been on the commission when heinz came in.

H

With the uh 16 congress street building uh popovers, whatever you want to call it and.

H

He brought that in and did a massing study on it. It was the first I was educated in massing.

H

Studies at that point um he did a masterful job, showing a variety and like you, I thought it was.

H

Going to be a waste of a meeting to look at some white boxes, folded up pieces of white paper.

H

But he walked us right through and did maybe not everybody, maybe setting up a rule or a program.

H

For people of his quality and ability is wrong, but he did a wonderful job of.

H

Enlivening these white boxes and and comparing them to the things that were around them.

H

To allow us at least to believe, as I still do, that that thing fits in that spot between those two.

H

Those two teeth, the the odd fellas hall and one he had the largest building in town and.

H

And the north church, the largest one-story building in town, uh but you would agree heinz.

G

Is exceptional he's exceptional he's exceptional, but but there are people that can do it. So if.

H

You're bored to tears over a massing study. It's because someone that doesn't know what.

H

They're doing is trying to do it for you. I can't I can't judge it as what I'm saying I understand.

E

But you have to admit when they bring us these fully um detailed and articulated drawings.

E

Suddenly we're talking about window mountains right yeah well, but everybody. You know that.

E

That that gets too distracting, I can understand when I'm being fooled and.

G

It's okay to to give me the give me the uh you know the big show. I think I do that. I.

F

Think what is important is for the applicant to be able to engage you in his own reasoning.

F

If there is not enough reasoning, they will apply candy what I call candy and.

F

That is what makes everything subsequent to that very nebulous.

F

As some of you will recall, I think our that project got approved at the first.

F

um Session didn't it which was pop over yes, say what again yeah we had. We had uh one formal.

F

Meeting and it got approved at the phone. Oh, you had four meetings for popovers. uh If it's you.

C

You're talking about when you did it yeah, I pulled the files. There was only four meetings in three.

C

Months, which is remarkable, you did the massing, you wouldn't go from massing to a finished product.

C

Like he just described, he went from massing to uh architecture and we had some on the details.

F

And you went and the details came later, so I think in in fairness to everybody, you know it's.

C

It's not easy to do what heinz did for everybody, but in fairness it. It's also not fair to say.

C

You're right about the rockingham, I can't imagine looking at that. That's an outlier yeah! Well, that's.

C

Also, an outlier what we're looking at for the last 50 years in portsmouth and find one example that.

C

Isn't it and I'll I'll buy you a beer, everybody that comes in here, everybody that comes in here.

C

With a with a massing, a building mass is generally consistent with, what's around it, so they're not.

C

Doing the rockingham we don't, we haven't, had a 10-story building in the in the north end.

C

Because it's not allowed right! So if somebody comes along like frank jones, which we might have a.

C

Modern day version of that person that came in and did a project, we've talked about a lot tonight.

C

They're gonna they're gonna roll up their sleeves and they're gonna fight and they're gonna like.

C

Like frank would have done with the locals to tear down three-story things and build a six or.

C

Seven-Story thing a 75-foot building. If somebody wants to do that, they're gonna have to fight and.

C

We should let them fight and we should listen and fight back and get get another rockingham. But the.

C

Rockingham is an outlier. It's an extreme outcome. That's successful! What we're used.

C

To seeing is people coming in with massing? That's that's pretty consistent with. What's.

C

Around it, so we don't need to see all the punched openings, the skin on the building, the landscaping.

C

To know whether the massing fits the context, so I just don't know, I think it's a starting point.

C

I think there's, I think, there's something in between getting a marshmallow as you describe.

A

It right which in some cases, is a very accurate description of what we get and something that has.

B

Simple simple lines that just say you know this. This part is curved. This is three stories. This is.

A

You know we're thinking about arches uh in our fenestration versus squares. I think there's.

A

Some very simple things that you can put on it, but then again give us some options. You know the.

A

The building that we were talking about on reigns avenue. Last time we met when.

A

You brought up the point that where's the front of the building, should it be here, should it be there.

A

We should be given the option of seeing what it looks like when you flip that building around.

A

But they've gotten so far down the road that they're, not even thinking that way.

A

They've locked themselves in and if we insist that they.

A

That they take those steps back and that they and if they show us these different options,.

A

Then uh I think we have a better chance on both sides of having better. It happens. All the time.

D

They do they lock themselves in to us. They've got what they want right. You know and then they'll.

D

They'll nibble some things away. Well, we'll just knock this corner off and then you'll be happy.

A

Yeah one of them they go over where they know will allow so that they can then knock it back.

B

And say: yeah we gave up a lot of stuff like you, you already knew. You were gonna. Give that up.

D

But I think one thing we've done with reigns avenue is we have managed to.

D

Keep pushing them back, you know, but they keep coming back with the same plan.

C

And I think you don't want to start the process on defense and that's what we end up doing if too.

C

Much is given to us there's a tendency and I think we all understand it of them going too far ahead.

C

And then making it for whatever reasons negotiating back, if that's an intention or not.

C

We we need, we need to be firmer as a group, so we have four meetings instead of eight, because we're.

G

Struggling to get control of the thing we think we're being heard, but we're not I mean that's.

C

Another problem, sometimes it- I think it's really important for you guys to help john.

C

At the end of a work session, when you're dealing with something that's, maybe ahead of itself,.

C

And that was a good example, the project we just talked about. It's really important. To summarize.

C

After we think it's all clear what we're saying so we don't need to summarize and it's late.

C

That two minutes to say: okay, whether it's john the vice chair, somebody needs to say: okay, here's.

C

What we're saying is it clear? Do you have any questions, so we don't come back and find out.

C

Half the stuff we said was it fell on deaf ears. You know, that's not unimportant. That'll.

C

Get you to six meetings from eight you know and then anyway. Well, I just think that when we look.

G

At amassing and we go, oh okay, that's that's acceptable and then they come next meeting and.

G

They added some language to it and they've added some architecture to it. They're like whoa, that's.

G

Not what we wanted at all, I don't see where that's much different from the first meaning. It's like.

G

Hey this is what we're planting from this is the direction we're planning and cut them off there.

G

In the first meeting, which we did with reigns avenue, I think a couple of times thus far now.

G

Here, here's a yeah, something that bothers me is is we have some members that get down to the.

G

Very they ask a lot of questions it's great and following along, we get to the fourth.

G

Fifth sixth meeting and then vote no on it like medicine's too big. That's, I think a disservice to.

G

The applicant that comes before us doesn't find out that they're not going to support it till.

G

The last meeting- and I like to I like to let them know I can support this or I can't support this.

G

I think that's something we need to get better at so well I'll. Talk to that because I have I've.

A

Been against certain projects from the beginning because of the mass I'm willing to talk about.

A

Other things, but in the end I can't just keep saying at the end of every meeting. Martin.

A

That you know I haven't changed my opinion, I'm still against it on the math and that's what I.

A

Voted but you you have to say that from day one, if we're gonna do mass, I'm not supporting this mess.

G

Yeah and then and then at each meeting you can just simply say I'm not supporting this.

G

I'm still not sure, if that's no, that's an odd position, because why do you want to talk about.

D

Details, if you're not supporting, why would the applicant listen to you? The applicant stops.

H

Listening and and your opinion, if, because they're going to check you off the list, then they start.

H

Selling to the four people or the five people, only I've backed not so much in this venue, but.

H

In a previous time, I found myself on a couple of occasions being dead, set against a project.

H

That was coming in, but wanting to contribute to keep it from being another kind of awful disaster.

H

Take me by surprise sometimes.

H

But, but I I understand the point of that is: is there things you? I would never want to have happen.

H

But if they're going to hell, they put in windows that look normal. I've been in that.

E

Situation, we all have I'd like to think it's and I don't want to exclude myself.

H

From the public conversation, if I'm not going to vote for something- and I know that on the.

H

Day they bring it in if I don't want to go sit in a lobby no, but I think you in fairness, this.

G

They're engaged in a million multi-million dollar process. We should be frank with them, because.

G

I don't think it's fair to them to get down to the very end and just say.

G

You know I've never supported this from day one. So I don't think that's that's. We need to.

G

Maintain our credibility as a board and if we start doing stuff like that, I don't think we you.

G

Know, martin, I just want to say something to that. I mean I being here for 10 years and seeing 40.

C

People move through that's never been a problem with this commission people yeah at least 40.

C

You know everybody comes into this differently and everybody doesn't make come to the same place with.

C

Every application, in terms of their level of comfort, their level of support their level of.

C

Of opposition, so I think everybody can do a better job with how they communicate to varying.

C

Degrees with the applicant- and I think this this isn't worth putting a whole lot more time into my.

C

Years, because what matters to the applicant primarily is: what's the outcome of the process.

C

And I haven't met anybody, yet that's left this room with a denial because that's been.

C

The prevailing approach of of the membership that they're playing uh we'll say we don't like.

C

It a couple times and participate for six months and then say: oh no, I never liked it. I'm out that.

C

That's just not that's not worth wasting oxygen on. In my opinion, it's it's not a problem and all.

C

Of us struggle you guys at certain times to find a balance between your discomfort and I think dave.

C

Is hitting it on the head? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you stop talking.

C

uh Well but- and it doesn't mean it's perfect to say at the end a I never liked it all along. I'm.

C

Not you know what I'm saying, I think there's room for improvement, but because sometimes.

A

Sometimes, in talking about details you can you can change the way the mass looks and.

F

That might be able to flip me over and that's why I keep that's why I keep participating in it.

A

Hoping that something is going to change my feeling on what the masses, but in the end.

A

If they can't do that, I was honest with them up front that the mass was too big. Well.

G

We need to be better at getting feedback because sometimes there's people who are just silent well.

D

We know we know that from the public speaking I mean that you see, I tried to turn the tables.

F

That time that I didn't sit up on the days when you asked him what he liked about it, that was.

A

A great question was, you know, a member of the audience and I came up and I said.

F

Why don't you tell me what you like about the building, and it was nothing nothing, nothing.

G

Yeah he fumbled yeah, so I think we need to um need to be talking. You need to be able to see.

F

Through um the advertisement, if you will, we need to see through the [ __ ] that they present.

F

Frequency frequently and just go down right to the stone you know that's hidden by all this flesh.

F

And we don't do that frequently. I agree. This is close to the concept of a straw vote.

H

And- and I know this is my rule- I know that there's an issue with straw votes.

H

It it's never been completely explained to me. Do you feel comfortable? What are you talking.

G

About with this draw vote, as the process goes sort of saying, are you supporting this to me a.

C

Straw vote is when you, when you go down the line and say well, how would you vote that's clearly.

C

A straw vote yeah, but when you go down the line and say hey, what do you think about the project.

C

Well, I think this I think this. I think this that's not straight that may have the same result to the.

C

Listener, I think we had a discussion. I think bob sullivan actually said something about this.

C

Just explaining the difference between, I think when you formalize a vote. That's what.

C

You shouldn't be doing when you informalize it. I think it's fine, that's what a work session is.

C

It's an informal straw bow because you're asking for input a yes, no straw vote is not cool yeah.

H

And the reason is, uh I think, because it I can tell you it's it's an informal process. There's.

C

No public notice that it's a public hearing, it's not a decision-making process. It's non-binding.

C

Everything you say is non-binding. So again, an informal straw vote is okay. It's about.

C

Not saying we have a six one vote against your project in the work session, so come back for a.

C

Public hearing you don't want to do that, but you can clearly provide feedback to the applicant.

C

That makes it clear one person doesn't like it and the other five do because of what they said.

D

I I think, maybe what uh this is getting around to is. I should be saying at the end.

D

Of a work session, uh I should give everybody an opportunity to round up their opinion in a minute.

D

And give it to you yeah what I, what I think would be what I advise to previous chairs. I don't think.

C

It's fair to the chair to have to do that. I think the vice chair should be the one that takes notes.

C

Or me and we work together, you've often done it yeah and I did it a lot in the past and I and.

C

The chair would say: hey nick what you've done it to ask me what what's the summary of what's been.

C

Said that gives me a chance to say well I think this is it and then you guys can say no. You got.

C

It wrong or that's right and then we're done, but it's at least clear and it's in the record.

C

Where we landed, not everybody but a majority of the commission. Well, we have given the summary to.

D

The developer, if we could do a better job, I think we could do a better thing. I mean yeah there. We.

H

Go once again with martin, we could do a better job because, um clearly, straw vote, I got it. I've.

H

Heard it I don't truly understand the informality of it, but and and maybe it does no real service.

H

Except for maybe a couple of opportunities once in a while, but in general holding your card so.

H

Close your vest that no one can tell where you're going with it doesn't. Do you any real good either.

H

I I like the idea of threatening people, because you can get them to sometimes say something.

H

That is valuable, uh but but it's not a good practice. We should be a little bit more open.

H

So we'll try to do better. That's how we all got into trouble 15 years ago.

D

And by saying we all, I'm not saying we, you me me yeah language.

H

I I think, you're being over oversimplifying things yeah, so that could be true. Let's keep.

C

You moving here yeah we're done well, so I have on my list what we talked about: the disclosure.

C

Disclosure form I'm gonna, continue. I'm gonna go to legal and talk some more about that. That last page.

C

As a complete aside, I think it would be good for us at some point to talk about historic plaques.

C

Coming back from charleston and seeing plaque after plaque but consistent plaques.

C

In the consistent location, didn't we give a blanket? We did advocates.

E

We basically understood, but I I think this is into advocacy from away from regulation.

C

We've got a celebration of 400 years of city enforcement and maybe that should light a.

H

Fire under the advocacy city, so undersells itself from a heritage, tourism standpoint.

C

These signs are beautiful, the advocates have made, but I don't see many of them and.

C

We need to talk about, they haven't done a very good job of marketing. We should call them. Let's.

C

Have a meeting with them and let's see if the city could you know, let's see if I'm saying as a as one.

C

Idea is there any way the city can help subsidize that effort to promote what we do, of which sir.

H

There is this thing: a program from the state meant to encourage the formation of historic districts.

H

Throughout the state that some towns and cities have taken up called the certified local district.

H

Or a certified local government- yes, and we have already formed a historic district and don't need.

H

That particular encouragement, but they do have this money basket of carrots, that 10 of the state.

H

Money that's received from the federal government, which is the state money that has to do with the.

H

Historic properties, uh but ten percent of that by law has to be sent off to communities to do.

H

Work with this would be a thing that they could do. They obviously aren't going to pay your salary or.

H

Keep the lights on in this building, but projects and programs. They will understandably help finance.

H

um It's a lot of matching money, but that isn't the worst thing in the world to have a little.

H

Bit of matching money- yeah we've talked about most matching money right here. Right now, we've talked.

E

About this and most and we've spent a little bit of time, trying to dig through this thing,.

H

Most of it is stuff that we actually already do. There are a few things that are a little.

H

Bit on top of what we do, that, I don't think we actually have to do, but you and some of your.

H

Staff would have to actually do the convocation of things, but, for the most part, the commissioners.

H

Don't have to suffer much from this program uh and the community could benefit some from it.

H

It's it's another. Damn thing it's another, damn form of government it! It's it's not.

H

Free in any manner, but we actually do most of the stuff what we really should do. I think I know that.

H

You picked this one up and I'm just to say I think what we should do is get someone who actually.

H

Runs the outreach of this program to come and speak to us for 30 minutes at a meeting.

E

I know that they're very willing to do that, and and and they would be able to provide us with.

H

Possibly a description of the pitfalls, which is a thing that we should understand and and uh the.

H

Opportunity to there there is such a thing as a checklist so that you can go down through and make.

H

Sure that you've got all of the eyes dotted and the keys crossed, and it's not it's not an onerous.

H

Thing we almost do all of this anyway. Okay, we really should do this. We really should pursue it.

H

There is it's not like it's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but there is the opportunity.

H

To file for some money and and just little things like to be able to hire an architect to pro, do a.

H

Little charette and provide us with four different kinds of fences that you could just look at people.

H

And say: do you want to build any of these fences? They are pre-approved by the commission and just.

H

Hand it out the screen for your air conditioning unit. I've got a book with 16 screens in it that.

H

Have all been approved if any of these things work for you, you can just take this and run right and.

H

And they could provide us with just simple things like that that make your life easier and make our.

H

Lives simpler too ready, so anyone else got any wrapping up statements so we'd, second, that, yes, yes,.

C

That's a great one. I've been talking about it for a long time um it just it just needs somebody to.

B

Step forward and do it and I think I will be happy to contact the person at.

E

The state who will do that and come and make a presentation. um My other quick little thing.

E

The zoning change that would have to would be required for this is clarifying the boundaries.

E

Of the historic district along middle street, this has bothered me ever since I've started on the htc.

E

That the boundaries of a historic district should go along lot lines and when middle.

E

Street was created, they just did straight lines, paralleling all of middle street, all the way down.

C

Yeah yeah from the center line and that it hasn't been a problem very much lately, but it has in.

E

The past caused some confusion because a small corner of someone's parcel yeah it gets cut by.

E

The boundary line does that mean that they have to be fully reviewed? What if just the building.

E

Is in what, if the building is a little bit, the answer is a little clearer than that it has to.

C

Bisect the building, not the lot line, see I don't there shouldn't even be a rule for that. We should.

E

What we should do? Well, you gotta have a drill, yeah, it's fine, but it it shouldn't. Be that complicated.

E

We should redraw it just so that it it captures every parcel just like on islington street.

E

It captures every person versus dimension france middle street, and I think that would be I'm in.

C

Agreement there there's no confusion in how it works. There's only disagreement on how it was.

C

Constructed let's I just want to be clear on that, so I I think that that would be a pretty simple.

E

Refinement some parcels that are taken in on side streets would be cut out yeah, um and maybe we want.

E

To just maybe we want to, I don't know we never would have fixed your neighbor's windows should.

E

We do what you were saying: yeah, that's fine, but you know and it's true and maybe you do.

E

Want to take one person on each if the point is to protect sight lines as you on the side, streets or.

E

Something, maybe you go one parcel in, but it needs to be clarified and it's it's a mess to me. So um I.

E

Would love to visit that at some point, but again I know that that would take voting through the city.

E

Council and all that stuff, but if we're already, if we're already making some provision, you know.

E

Additions or changes to the um and I would suggest it because I don't, I think, what you're saying.

C

It's that simple they did it. They used a different methodology to create the protection for middle.

C

Street than they did islington, it's that simple, it's not confusing to use it's very clear. It.

C

Doesn't mean it's philosophically correct, which is your point middle was done. First, wasn't it and.

C

Yes and island was something yes and we had a gis map when they did islington. So it was easy to cut.

C

Around the lot lines, but I will tell you there are as many anomalies of lot lines that go way.

C

Back to state street from islington, because the shape of the lot is that big. So it's not.

C

As rosy as it sounds on the other side other than the owner being aware that their entire lot is.

C

Is covered so anyway, that's. I would encourage you to think about areas that abut the historic.

C

District that maybe should be in it that are not at the same time, you're sawing it apart. There are.

C

You know frank jones brewery. Only one or two of the buildings is in and not the others. For example,.

C

We didn't have any jurisdiction over the loss of the slate roof on the other buildings. Why.

C

Because it's outside the district, but it abuts the other frank jones building, so take a look.

C

At the map, it's in the design guidelines, there are probably some areas that should be in that are not.

C

And areas that are in that should not be margo um just jump off of this and go to january's.

A

Agenda so there's voting going on in the january meeting right the first one you mean for officers.

C

Officers, yes, that would be when it happens, the the city, council seat will get filled and you should.

C

Really do it when that's filled and that person's in attendance, which may be the second meeting in.

C

January, okay, so I just want to say I was happy to step up and take the vice chair position and.

A

I'm happy to continue, but I'm also happy to have somebody else take over. So that's where I sit. Okay,.

G

Well, I will say that I've talked to reagan and I'd be happy to nominate reagan for vice chair.

E

You can talk about this and yeah that's for january. Thank you, okay, yeah. So we can't vote.

D

Now, today, all the way, so we know I think it's appropriate. You wait for the the city council.

C

Representative, there was no new nominations for this group. Sorry, there were no new nominations for.

C

This seat they're preparing for the group. I know they did it to planning no, no, no new appointments.

C

Yeah, only this seat will be played by the council, yeah yeah who's. Does anybody know who's up next.

C

uh For appointment, reappointment or vacancy I'm in june you're in june, so you're, probably next june,.

C

As well, it might also be, I think, I'll get a sheet for the next for january, so you at least know that.

F

May I just add a footnote, I I don't know whether you know, but I missed a few meetings because of.

F

My goal, I had a gallbladder attack and they found a stone about the size of the pinball machine.

F

Pinball and that led to, of course, taking some of those samples to the left, and I discovered.

F

That I had cancer and some of the cancer spread into the liver. So then I had a liver section.

F

At dana farber and I'm just sort of coming out of that and I'm on chemo. But I hope that.

F

uh um I'm regaining my strength, if you will so I'm here and I intend to stay on, I think.

E

We're glad you're here yeah, I'm very glad, I'm hoping you get your boxing gloves out again.

A

Because is there any issue if, if heinz attends remotely, if he's not feeling up to coming in.

A

Can he attend from I I don't think, there's an issue with that for now.

B

Okay, yep, it's an option; yeah, it's not up to coming in right. I would. I would uh certainly.

F

Great well, we covered a lot of ground covered, I'd like to suggest like with the preservation.

C

Alliance, we consider some training uh people that can go off. We have a, we have a junket, oh no.

C

We're we with the preservation alliance of new hampshire, so when they do their their they do an annual meeting.

C

If not quarterly stuff around the state, you can attend uh those meetings and the city will pay.

E

That tax do we still have our affiliation with the the association of preservation.

E

Commissions, something like that: there's a national organization- I don't think so, but.

C

I don't know for sure they every once in a while. I remember that it exists and I look and it can they.

E

Have some very helpful um articles- and you know examples of things done here and there that.

E

Be good to good the last thing I was going to say that I think would be really cool and I'm done.

C

uh Coming back from charleston for the second time this year, I think it would be really cool.

C

To explore being a sister city with some place like charleston, where we could do an exchange.

C

And we you guys, could go down and see the architectural review board what they do.

C

Just like I mean there's so many things we have in common and and in some ways, they're ahead of us.

C

Because they're, the earliest architectural review board 1924, they form the district.

C

It's so they're very mature and I think they've got similar constraints coming at them. Whether.

C

It's gentrification or whether it's sea level rise and climate change and dealing with the.

C

The employment centers that they've got diversifying their economy. I think it's.

C

Worth worth exploring how we can learn from each other, uh so I don't know how to do that. Quite.

C

Yet but I'm just floating that balloon talking about a city that has to deal with flooding now.

D

You know that whole uh area off the harbor, what are they called the bari.

D

um Battery cell battery yeah the battery yeah, the water goes over that wall and it's a pond.

D

And the first floor of all those homes are beautiful. It's just. I can't believe.

D

It that it happens frequently, I don't know how they deal with it. It's about 30.

C

Odd times a year, yeah going up exponentially, but we on the other hand, build a sewer treatment.

F

Plant right in the middle of the piscataqua river, all right! How about a motion to adjust.

D

Second, hi.

E

Thanks everyone.