City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Planning Board, 16 Mar 2023

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3.16.2023 Planning Board

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Good evening and welcome to the march 16 2023 meeting of the portsmouth planning board call the.

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Meeting to order, we have approval of the minutes as our first two items february 16th and the 23rd.

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Folks, look those over.

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Comments editions deletions corrections.

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A motion to approve the february 16th and february 23rd minutes. Second,.

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All those in favor aye aye opposed and it's her passed.

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We have uh determinations of completeness for.

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A couple of different applications here, one a subdivision review.

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I believe we have to accept this complete before we can postpone.

B

Too, I think, except it's completed the next one.

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We have a request to postpone the request of frederick j bailey, the third and joyce nelson.

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Is owners from tuck realty corporations applicant for properties at 212, 214 and.

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216 woodbury avenue, requesting preliminary and final subdivision approval for lot line.

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Relocation to create several lots properties of assessors map, 175 lots, one two and three: we have.

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Requests to postpone a motion to postpone- which I guess, let's continue this to the next meeting.

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Okay, any discussion all those in favor aye aye, continue to the next meeting.

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We have our site plan review request for lucky 13 properties. Llc is owner for property, located 147.

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Congress street requesting site plan approval for a 700 square foot edition front and rear.

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Canopies and associated off-site and on-site improvements, this property is on assessor's.

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Map 126 lot 4 lies in the character district, 5 and historic district lu 22-192. We also have.

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I'm just going to go all these. I think we can do both of these request of lucky 13.

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Properties, llc is owner for property located at 361 islington street, requesting site plan approval.

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Cyclone reapproval for the redevelopment of the existing structure, including 695 square.

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Foot edition and a 73 square foot edition with associated site improvements, including lighting.

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Utilities, landscaping and storm water treatment management. This property is shown on assessors map.

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144 lot 23 and lies within character: district 4, l2, cd4l2 and historic district lu22-195. A.

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We also have frederick j, bailey iii and joyce nelson as owners and tuck realty corporation.

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Is owner and applicant for properties at 212, woodbury avenue, requesting site plan approval.

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For the construction of an eight unit, condominium development consisting of four single living unit.

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Structures and two two unit structures, 18 parking spaces where 13 are required, associated stormwater.

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Utility and site improvements with access to the development from boyd street. These properties.

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Aren't assessors map 175 lot 1 and lies within the general residence, a district, lu 22-129. We.

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Have three different applications to be accepted as complete up two ones being postponed? Well, first,.

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I want to accept well, I guess just like we did so two to accept and then one to postpone so the.

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First, two and make a motion to accept 147 congress and 361 islington street as site plan review.

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Complete second, any discussion: all those in favor aye opposed applications accepted.

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Motion to postpone the third, which is the property at uh 175 lot, 1.

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So moved second, second, any discussion, all those in favor opposed continued. We also have uh requests.

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From liberty, mutual insurance uh for property at 225, borthwick avenue requesting a wetlands.

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Conditional use permit under section 10 10 17.. The applicant has withdrawn this.

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Application, so anyone here this evening for this application, has been withdrawn from our agenda.

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Public hearings, we have a request of lucky 13 properties. Llc is owner for.

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Property 147 congress street requesting site plan review approval for 700 square.

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Foot edition front, rear, canopies and associated off-site and on-site.

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Improvements, this property is assessors map, 126, lot 4 and lies within character, district.

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5 and historic, historic district, lu 22-192, who was here to speak to this application.

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Thanks partner.

C

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For the record, eric weinrude with altus engineering uh tech, it application is for.

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Tax map 126 lot 4 147 congress street, the former health food store. I have with me the owner uh mike.

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And susan labrie sarah howard and rob harrison with market square architects, also a very simple.

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Project, I think we're all familiar with the sites on the corner of maplewood and congress backs up.

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To the worth lot, for many years it's been the health food store on the labreeze had purchased.

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The property and have been going undergoing internal renovations on on the property and have.

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Received hcc approval on they that also received zoning relief for lot coverage and what we're.

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Proposing to do is a small 700 square foot single story edition in that area between the sidewalk on.

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Maplewood and the existing building so we're doing a little bit of infill on there's. The attack voted.

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To recommend approval with with three stipulation- and I believe that we've addressed the first two.

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um As we've been working with the inspection department and dpw on the size and location.

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Of the interior grease trap and we've also submitted on documentation that the storm.

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Water and sanitary services are, are both adequate and uh and the connections are fully separated.

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uh We are not proposing any new external utility services, the existing uh fire protection and.

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Domestic water supply are adequate, the roof drains for the existing building. The uh are adequate and.

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We're tying into those with the uh the addition in the sanitary services adequate. We are uniquely.

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On and similar to what we did with jimmy's, we are having an internal um grease trap, because there.

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Is no physical space outside the building to site one, so we're working on that location right now,.

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uh Since the parcel has no other on open land between the uh the sidewalk.

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And maplewood there's no parking site lighting or other types of.

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Site development issues on the site: it's uh it's pretty straightforward project.

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And we have no objection to the nine recommendations identified in the snap staff.

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Memo except on items three and eight are redundant and that um item four. I know it's probably a.

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Can statement, but the lot is only 6 245 square feet, so the uh that requirement does not apply.

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Do you have any questions of myself, the owner or the architect, of course, from the board.

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Yes, jen yeah. um Thank you. um I had a couple of quick questions. The first one is that there's a.

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Statement in here that this will revitalize the neighborhood, could you explain that statement.

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Well, I think, architecturally on the end of the block. You know we have a bunch of stuff. That's.

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Been renovated through the uh on congress and including jimmy, and I think that the.

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Health food store building is tired. It if you're looking at it from coming up islington street on.

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There you go, there's a nice picture of what it's going to look like. Is that it's tired? I don't want.

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To say it looks like um eastern blocks uh post world war ii, but it certainly it's a it's a tired.

E

Looking building and I think this renovation and new facade, I will revitalize that area.

F

And then I guess related to that. um So I see that picture in our packet and also your inspiration.

F

Colors, but I was wondering well, those are not mine whatsoever, they submitted it. um I was wondering.

F

If you could walk us through what the actual colors and trims of this building will look like.

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I'm going to turn that over to market square, they are much more skilled with that.

G

For market square architects and you're, asking about the actual color materials.

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So the existing building is um has uh burke redbrick palasters. That will be.

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Stained a dark gray and the new addition will have a dark, gray, brick band. uh We at.

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The bottom, the top portion of that edition, is mostly glass. It's a lot of storefront.

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And the rest of it is the white portions of that building is, is the existing building color.

F

So you're saying that building is gray, it's creamy, a creamy gray, okay! No! So so when we get.

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That gray, like it's, the dark gray against it, so it's they're contrasting colors right and we did.

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Go through the hdc process with this, and you know, and they they were accepting of the colors- that.

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We're we're chosen- and I think that's actually where, where that topic is dealt with directly.

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But thank you. Yes, they do have um purview over material, colors, permanent, colors, okay and then.

F

I just had one other question, which is about the the planting, the retainer. It looks like it's out.

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Towards the front sidewalk, you know what will be in that in the tree box planter what what tree.

F

Will be in it that tree is owned by the city that exists, we're not making any changes to that. Okay.

F

Okay, well, thank you any other questions from the board.

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Yes, andrew more of a general statement, but I feel like within uh consideration of whatever.

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The htc will allow it'd be a great opportunity for some art on the side of the building. Much.

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Like we said on state street and pleasant street or any of those areas, obviously with whatever htc.

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Will allow- but I think, that's a nice opportunity, because it's such a gateway to the downtown area.

D

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Any other comments, questions.

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No other questions from the board. You can open the public hearing.

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Everybody will have three minutes to speak the first round and five.

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Minutes to speak the second round, if there's any additional time needed I'll, consider it beyond that point. Public hearing is open.

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Anybody wish to speak 2-4 against this application.

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Anybody on zoom uh we do have attendance attendees, but no one has raised their hand.

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Raise your hand now or you you will not have the opportunity.

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Last call anybody was to speak too far against this application.

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I'm going to close the public hearing.

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What's the pleasure of the board, it's a chairman I'll make a motion that we vote.

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To find that the site plan application meets the requirements set forth in the site plan.

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Regulations, section 2.9 evaluation criteria and adopt the findings of fact, as presented. Second.

C

Any discussion, I think it's a good good reuse of the property, and I I do.

H

Tend to agree with what mr simonis suggested, however, you know it's and that's dealt with by.

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Someone else, but I think um I think that having this built out, the way it is is going to help.

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um Activate that intersection more than it is now.

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Agreed any other comments.

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We have a motion a second all, those in favor aye, aye opposed none promotion.

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Carries departures approved? Oh, I don't know. I gotta I'm sorry, mr chairman I'll.

H

Make ahead of myself mostly vote to grant site plan approval of the.

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Following conditions 2.1 through 2.9 is in the staff. Memo, however, strike out 2.8.

H

Because it is the same as 2.3 and 2. and 2.4, and also 2.6 change, separates to separated.

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All those in favor aye aye opposed none.

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I think we are now you have an approved project. Thank you very much.

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We also have an application by lucky: 13 properties, llc for property at 361, islington street.

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This has actually got several different approval requests, three of them within this notice that.

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I'll read site plan approval for the redevelopment of this existing structure, including a 695 square.

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Foot edition and a 73 square foot edition with associated site improvements, including lighting.

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Utilities, landscaping and storm water treatment management, a conditional use, permit requests in.

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Accordance with section 10.112.14 of the zoning ordinance to allow 12 parking spaces where 22.

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Are required and a conditional use permit request in accordance with section 10440.

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Used 19.50 for outdoor dining and drinking as an accessory use. This property is on assessor's map.

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144 lot 23 and is in the character district 4, l2, cd4l2 and historic district lu-22-95.

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Mr chair, I'm going to recuse on this application. Thank you.

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And I forgot to mention earlier, but mr simonis is sitting for mr mahana this evening.

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Eric weinrib with altus engineering, I'm also with me tonight, is uh project architect, roger.

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Robert woodmeier, with winterhoban attorney derek durbin, jeff uh dyer it with uh who's.

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Operating the facility and uh sean creeley, the the future owner and the current owner, uh mr labree.

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It's as I said, uh tax map 144 lot, 23, it's the former getty at the corner of cabot and.

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Islington street uh we've been before you on for several approvals on this and and I'm a couple of.

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Starts and never nothing's really gained traction over the years um and for various reasons it just.

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They just didn't work the economics or what have you and I hate to call the property at.

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The derelict or neglected site um with with no disrespect to anyone, um but it has worked out.

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Well, I think, for the city over the last few years, using it, for uh you, know, an area for.

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A yard for construction projects going on in the area, but what we are proposing to do is turn the.

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Former gas station into a bagel shop, um I believe that the project will improve the vitality to the.

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Site in the neighborhood it'll eliminate that abandoned feel to the corner, um and I think it's.

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Just going to be a revitalization of the entire neighborhood, it is a challenging site because.

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It's highly paved now, um it has, you know, literally full access on cabot and islington streets and and.

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It's a developed site and because it's developed and that it's now it's in a character district, the.

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Building doesn't really fit for the uh for the use and that's why we had to get multiple variances.

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Because parking is in front of the building because the building set back, we don't have.

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Full build out, we don't have a whole host of items that we had to go through that process, and so we.

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We've got our zoning relief, we got on certificate of approval from the hdc and so we're here tonight.

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For our conditional use permits uh and for parking, outdoor, dining and the site plan review.

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So what we're doing with the site is we have a small edition on the rear.

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um And then a small addition, a smaller edition on the side and we've.

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Change the traffic flow around we're taking that canopy area that access now and making that into.

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A customer area we're moving the driveway further to the north, which creates some.

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Slope issue on as it intersects with tapestry, but it, but it moves it further away from the.

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Intersection makes it a safer site and also provides more on safe parking on the parcel.

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We have a one-way entrance coming in off of islington street and that has stayed on this.

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On the site, because there's two reasons one is: we have parking in access easements with the abiding.

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Property to the west, and uh and we wanted to keep that one way in only so that you're not creating.

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A traffic conflict coming out of uh islington street. We have that controlled intersection.

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When I originally presented the plans for this to attack in a work session on in.

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We got some pushback on. I was going to take down that that tree behind the site- and I.

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um I didn't really think that it was going to be a healthy tree. It's all, surrounded by pavement.

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And we took out chris kemp out there and it was arborist with piscataqua and he looked at it and.

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Said this tree is fantastic, so I appreciate the fact that attack worked with us because.

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That's not a conventional way of getting around the building it. It probably a conventional way.

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In an urban setting, but it's not what if I was designing a site with plenty of room, how that.

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Site would look so you know we. We worked with turning templates, we're not having large vehicles.

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Come to the site, this plan we modified a little bit further to satisfy the dpw and which is a.

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Sketch in your plan- and so it's it's a little bit different, but I think that it really meets the.

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The goals of the design to provide safe access to provide the ability to get some delivery vehicles.

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Into the site, I'm we're greening the site. You can see significant amount of green area on.

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The property, which is a vast improvement, would have a robust planting plan that terence parker.

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Has prepared we're providing on both motorcycle moped and bicycle parking to create a neighborhood.

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Field so that people can be coming to it either on foot, bicycle or motorcycle, in addition to um their.

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Vehicles we're providing all new utility services, we have a new grease trap, exterior grease trap and.

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Suic new domestic water and fire protection services and new gas service from islington.

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Street and an electric new electric service that will be coming from islington street as well.

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We also in our design, we incorporated the islington street construction.

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Project into the site, design and I believe, there's.

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Between the contract, earnings and our drawings there's a little bit of a conflict, because we.

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Worked off the 97 uh tonight at 2017, bhb design and when the plans went to construction and bid.

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uh The underwood plans actually show two entrances, and so we kept that at on back.

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Where it was and we're working with dpw to make sure that they recognize and we provided them.

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With the cad file so that the islington street project is integrated with this design, I'm.

E

It there were five items in the um uh the tac or the staff memo I apologize. um We are in agreement.

E

With all of them, I'm, with the exception of as noted on the site, is just slightly over.

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Ten thousand square feet in area, but because the existing building is there and there's some areas.

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In the corner, our site disturbance is under 15 000, so we don't need to meet that requirement.

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um And so we otherwise we're complete on an agreement with the um the staff memo in support.

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Of the parking conditional use permit, we did provide the narrative in our I'm in our packet and.

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What we are proposing is a facility with 43 interior seat, 31, extra external seasonal. It's.

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Similar in size to the white heron, um yet we're providing 200 percent more parking than the white.

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Heron we're trying to create a community feeling on promoting pedestrian alternative transportation.

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While and reducing the vehicle burden from a traditional site, there are no drive up windows.

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We have ample moped, motorcycle bicycle parking and it's a high turnover site. We're not providing.

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Any ev dedicated parking on because we're not looking for people to stay there. All all the time.

E

I'm out of words, I'm going to turn a little bit to derek to discuss the conditional use.

E

Permit for the outdoor dining eric before you leave uh just quickly. You you touched on.

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It, but there was a comment and I it was also in a butters comment. You did change the back.

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West corner to for circulation purposes: yes, I'm going to that's good yeah. So yes, I.

E

Right there we made that on. I believe that was last week. I submitted that, but we didn't.

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Have time to go through the full set of plans, so we submitted that we got concurrence from.

E

um Eric eby, and so should this project be approved. We would roll that through on all our plans. Okay,.

A

And either you or somebody will explain hours of operation. Yes, um I I'll let the.

E

There is jeff and who's operating the facility, we'll discuss that. Thank you chairman. I I just.

F

So there wasn't a motion to take all of these together are we? Can we take these separately? I.

F

Don't necessarily think that the two cups should be taken with the site plan review. I think it.

F

Should be separate discussions, we can take them one at a time. What's the pleasure of the board.

F

I think discussing the site plan has enough questions attached to it before rolling it.

F

Into the other requests for cups, which might be more hardy discussions, so we could end up.

F

Accepting the site plan but have other questions about the requests for cups. I don't understand.

F

Why we have to take them all together. Was that a motion to consider the site plan? First? Yes, please.

A

For a second second, any discussion, it's all those in favor, aye, aye, opposed we'll consider the site.

A

Plan first so site plan issues and then we'll roll into cup. Assuming we get past site, fine.

J

Cool my uh my name is jeff dyer. I am working with the uh hopeful future honor. It's helped develop.

J

The site, essentially the hours of operation for us it's intended to be like we were saying at a.

J

Community site bagel shop is the primary intent knowing that the site is not a cheap one to.

J

Develop to maintain to purchase there is economic requirements that we are frankly unsure of so far.

J

So we don't want to pigeonhole us to be hey, we're only up until 1 pm. You know we would like the.

J

Opportunity to say, hey, maybe two nights a week, be open until 10, like the neighboring restaurants and.

J

Every other night of the week you know eight or nine o'clock um at the most. Hopefully that's not.

J

The route we have to go down, I don't think any of us want to be out. You know operating at.

J

You know a establishment past dinner time, but you know sometimes economics are such that you need to.

A

And it's also described as a lounge. Is that a it's definitely not a lounge? um I think the la.

J

The lounge comic came from a document that it's a, I think it was a piece of furniture, is what we've.

J

Decided as a uh robert robert put in there, I think it's not not a lounge. I don't think anything would.

J

Ever be a lounge um at best, it would be a you know, an eatery that stays open to capture more revenue.

A

So time for me for me to understand, maybe the rest of the board two night, two two.

A

Days a week, you'd want to you're contemplating staying open till 10.

J

Yeah, just the option would be nice to have right. um Okay, I'm not suggesting.

A

That's a limitation, I'm just trying to understand what you're proposing yep.

A

Cyclone questions, yes, my first question is kind of about um basic buildability, because when I look.

F

At this statement, in the one point in the 7.1 rex paragraph on page 91 of our meeting packet.

F

Says it talks about um nhdes case number 2284 uh the release of gasoline was reported to new.

F

Hampshire des the release is part of ongoing remediation efforts, actively managed by getty.

F

Under this site and case number, um the groundwater is actively being monitored under this other case,.

F

Number so I I don't know what assurances we have that this is really a clean site.

F

And who will test that? And who will monitor that? Because if the property is owned by somebody else,.

F

I don't think that getty doing, I don't think it's appropriate. I don't think it's appropriate.

F

That getty would continue monitoring it and I'm very concerned about that, because you're.

F

Putting a food establishment there, my name is michael labrie, current owner. It's actually.

K

um Has a new hampshire des file they've spent nearly a million dollars on removing.

K

Contaminated soil, removing the gas tanks and they have monitoring wells that that are test sampled.

K

Twice a year just to make sure that the contaminant levels remain stable.

K

Or declined they have been declining, so it's proceeding exactly as planned and it is the.

K

State of new hampshire des that is in charge of that and decides when they will close that file.

K

So everything is actually quite quite in good shape over there. In regards to that, thank you.

F

But then there's this statement that it is the bsc group's understanding that.

F

The liability for these ongoing remediation efforts are the sole responsibility of getty.

K

Right, so that's just that's just state law, that's how how these contaminated properties are dealt.

K

With especially with petroleum contamination, uh the the person there forever I I've owned several.

K

Of these contaminated sites- and um that's that's the way it proceeds, whoever the owner is that.

K

Either contaminates the site or originally puts it into the des program, they remain responsible so.

K

Lee melts petroleum or getty uh is the one that filed that application. They remain uh liable for.

K

That so, even though you're going to have under 15 000 square feet of soil disturbance, in this case.

F

Where you know gas and oil remediation seems to be ongoing.

F

um It's gas and oil remediation are not ongoing. They've removed over 200 yards of contaminated.

K

Soil, they removed all three gas tanks. This is very common for gas stations of this era until.

K

They figured out how to make gas tanks that didn't leak and so um that remediation work has been done.

K

I've been told by the state they have, uh I think, approximately up to 1.4 million dollars if needed,.

K

To to do any further work on the site, but that would only happen if, through their.

K

Monitoring program, they noticed some a new spike in elevations which has not occurred. I think it's.

K

Been in the monitoring program for approximately 12 years at this point, if not longer, and so it's.

K

Proceeding um very well and according to plan- and there are no concerns currently on the part of.

K

The des regarding this site: okay, but that's not what the findings and conclusions of this.

F

Document says because it says this release is part of ongoing remediation activities.

F

Actively managed by getty under this case number what is the date of that that you're reading.

F

It's the phase, one environmental site assessment: that's attached to.

F

The site assessment checklist that was submitted to the city, so I assume it's under the date that.

F

It was submitted to the city- I don't see right so that that would have been one of the original.

K

Documents in one of the original reports, so so that that phase one study was done.

K

Probably 15 years ago I mean it says it's a january, 23rd 2023 plan set.

F

It's got your engineers, you know estimated costs the site plan, application checklist, he's.

K

Referencing the des documents on his plan set- okay well uh jane. I think peter might have do.

A

You have information about, I don't have the date on it, but I was just going to have it up there.

L

For mr breed, if he could confirm that that was the original or I mean I know, there's been yeah.

K

Paperwork well, phase. One definitely would have been at the beginning right. So you know that.

A

That's consistent with what you've said is des aware of this application. Your current application.

K

Yes, have they placed any conditions or issued any warnings? No.

F

Something that just verifies for city that this does not pose any danger to the public. I'm just.

F

Would like something that's official from you know des that shows that status before building begins.

A

Have they requested has des requested access to the property in the event, I'm sorry they.

K

Have uh continuous access to the property? They have environmental engineers that sample the.

K

The monitoring wells, uh I think, twice a year, they have full access to the property, they have.

K

I mean cooperation from from me throughout. You know the last 10 years.

A

So worst case, if, if there were something, was missed, when the soil was removed, they didn't.

A

Get to get it all, I guess that's the imaginable horrible! That's why they uh that's why they have.

K

Monitoring wells and sample them to to follow the uh the levels of contamination in the.

K

Water to to be satisfied that it is remaining constant and or declining which it has been.

H

Drew to help maybe kind of answer. Some of these concerns there's an awful lot of.

H

Excavation happening on the site, even though the the core building is going to remain the.

H

Same you have drain lines running throughout the site, underground electric grease trap all.

H

Kinds of stuff, so have you guys formulated a soil management plan with des as far as.

H

You know trying to as the soil is being hauled off the site. Obviously you're not disposing it here.

H

um So how how is that soil going to be managed and if you do run into something say when you're.

H

Excavating for the grease trap you hit um high high numbers, um then, uh what's your what's your.

H

Plan of attack at that point in time yeah. So we, when we entered into a person sale with with mike.

J

We went ahead and had another phase, one done by a engineer's environmental leaders, much smarter than.

J

I am, um and they concluded that they felt as if the site was safe, when we didn't need to proceed.

J

Further with more environmental investigation, due to the the sheer size and length of the.

J

File within the ds that they've done everything to their knowledge and ability to keep this site safe.

J

um And I think mike can speak to how much soil they move out. Also, the other. The other thing.

K

If I can mention, as is typical, the contamination was associated with the location of the tanks, the.

K

Tanks were removed, they did extensive borings and testings they've. Just about last year did.

K

Additional borings and they did not find any more hot areas, so the contamination would have.

K

Been surrounding the tanks, those tanks were removed about 200 yards of contaminated soil.

K

Was removed, they would have kept going if they kept finding contamination they they would have.

K

Removed all the soil on the site if they were continuing to find hot soil at that.

K

Time they were satisfied that, with with what they removed and they've, been satisfied with.

K

The levels of contaminants in the water samples throughout the years.

K

Follow-Up question: uh yes, joe in just a second eric, just a quick question and in the event.

M

That during construction, something was encountered according to this document. It's the responsibility.

M

Of getty to to dispose of it it would, it would be the responsibility of the engineers that are.

K

Working on this file for des they would come in, they would coordinate and have additional soils.

K

Removed in cooperation with des, thank you. Thank you exactly what I was just going to summarize.

E

Is that we're going to take the proper protocols we're going to work with des and make sure that.

E

um If anything hot does come up, it's going to be properly dealt with when we're we're done.

E

We're not extracting water. It's I'm going to be pavement. It's going to be lawn, it's not going to.

E

Be contaminants bubbling up through the earth that everything that's been contaminated on the is down.

E

Low, so it's nothing! That's you're going to see on the surface if there were ever anything anyway.

H

Just real quick, the monitoring wells that are exist, they're going to remain they're going.

H

To remain okay, thank you june, because I just want to note that on page 104 of our meeting.

F

Gas service location, unknown, shut off is to be removed, so there's still going to be. There's.

F

Still some natural gas service- oh natural gas, okay, so eric the the way you described it makes.

A

A lot of sense is there a. I know we had another site that has some serious problems below grade.

A

And the des required, in that case an actual soil management plan, including wind erosion,.

A

When the soil is stored on site for excavating for lines and things as corey mentioned right is that.

A

A part of what you plan to do, or they said we haven't planned on that but des if they ask.

E

That that's what we would provide. I know that I'm project downtown recently they had to do.

E

Covering of the material until it's removed from the site, so to consist of your plans.

A

If there were a condition that you conform with whatever requirements, the des requires.

A

That would be in in accordance with what you plan to do. That would be exactly what we do.

A

Yes, to get on a different topic, um you've put the addition in the back, which has really narrowed the.

B

Space for going around the back of the building- and I guess my biggest concern- is deliveries.

B

And whether or not the nine and a half feet to get through the far side and the place to stop.

B

And actually make deliveries throughout the day. I actually go through this intersection.

B

Every single day, sometimes twice a day since I happened to live back in that neighborhood.

B

And I know that if trucks start parking on cabot street, it's going to become a really big problem.

B

We know they can't park on islington street. So what is going to prevent deliveries from.

B

Happening you know, are we going to be able to keep them on site? How are we going to do that.

E

I have never successfully had a ups or amazon delivery off street. I can honestly say that, but.

E

um We're providing the area for their regular delivery, they're going to be coming in off.

E

Peak hours so that they will be able to be in that northwestern quadrant of the site.

E

And because they're their regular deliveries, they're going to know where to go, they're also.

E

On I find some people don't like to walk as much as others, so that entrance to that delivery is in.

E

The back by the kitchen, so they're not going to want to walk very far. Will they be able to make.

B

It through that narrow opening to get out yeah, we are, it is planned for small deliveries and.

E

It's not a large trash truck, it's all um totes and so forth. Okay, that was with me my next.

B

Question was about trash. Where is trash trashes? I'm gonna be pictures to the left of that edition.

N

Okay, so the the certain the building, so the vehicle circulating around the building. It.

A

Is a pretty small vehicle? You yeah got good control of that because it looks like a is it.

A

Even an su-30, I believe it was the 30 is the maximum. So it's we're not going to be seeing.

E

Wb50S in there at all or anything, so we can see it in there once and stay right. There.

E

A

Yes, a quick question on the uh on the storm water. So just a little bit.

H

um The uh you guys look into doing any sort of treatment that the catch basin before tying.

H

Into the uh the city drain system, so there's um there's no treatment on the site today and it's.

E

Almost all impervia, and so we're capturing the runoff we'd catch basins with with deep sumps.

E

um So we're providing it on a pre-treatment of the the runoff before it leaves the site and it has.

E

Hoods but we're not doing any on-site stormwater management where there's challenges of you know.

E

Where the property line is and the way the site's graded to put any pre-treatment in there really.

H

Are the roof trains all going to be tied into that system? Yes, okay. Okay, thanks.

C

There's jane yeah, um I, the number of lights, which are a concern um that has been raised by people.

F

In the neighborhood as well and the amount of noise is going to have to do with both hours of.

F

Operation and the actual use, so um I just want to understand that the use of the word lounge.

F

Throughout the paperwork, I know you said that before, but I didn't say it, but I put it on my.

E

Plan as a carry from the architectural plan, so I take full responsibility and they've been clear.

E

It is not a lounge, so you would be happy if we put as a condition that a liquor license will.

F

Not be given for this particular bagel shop is that right? I don't think that that would.

E

Be acceptable on it to them, but it's not a lounge. I don't think we could condition that, but we can.

A

Accept the application as representing that that's not a part of this application, so the.

A

Site plan would not approve that would not be a part of the presentation slightly different.

F

I want to take the use, as it's stipulated, to be the use on behalf of the neighborhood on.

F

Behalf of the impact on this neighborhood, it's really different having a bagel shop.

F

You know during the daylight hours etc. We'll talk about traffic and we'll talk about outdoor dining.

F

Later on, but then it is to have like a full out restaurant, with lots of noise with people.

F

Drinking that's a different entity. Do you agree? I agree. I also know that there's noise, ordinance and.

E

That they're committed to maintaining early hours during the week, a little bit later on weekends and.

E

I believe that on sundays, we we talked about that they would be. You know again with not necessarily.

E

Putting these conditions on, but you know, opening a little bit later on sundays being respectful.

E

Of the neighborhood they do understand it's a business corridor, but it is residential in nature.

E

In the properties around that they're very much aware of that, and if they are not good neighbors.

E

Their reputation will not be good and they will not have it that um neighborhood vibe that they're.

E

Looking for porn and clarification, traffic is now under site plan parking is later, but traffic would.

A

Be this part of the discussion, so any concerns about traffic. This is the time and I just like.

F

To like just finish that point by asking to go over how many lighting fixtures there are outside.

F

In the current plan, so that everybody is noticing that um I believe on our site lighting plan.

E

We have two pole fixtures on the right side that provide on the minimum lighting requirement.

E

um In the parking lot and then we have on a couple building mounted lights in back and.

E

Then some bollard lights, I believe, on the left side of the building and you can see.

E

That the photometrics on this plan show that there's no spill beyond the property lens.

E

It meets it, meets the city, regulations for dark.

E

Sky, it meets the city regulations for not spilling beyond the property.

N

Thank you yes, andrew excuse me one quick question on that. Underneath the canopy.

D

Itself will there be bollards for the outdoor space under the canopy yeah on.

O

Hello, uh robert wedemeyer, with winterholdman, architects and design.

O

um And when you're asking about bollards under the canopy, are you talking about like um protection or.

D

If dollars wasn't the right descriptor, but just general lighting, underneath the canopy at the.

D

Ground level uh for pedestrians, walking about the patio yeah I mean under the canopy we have, I think.

O

Four pendant fixtures and then some string lights that are basically there for general dining yeah.

O

um You know and when the business isn't open, those won't be on cool.

O

You can see them kind of in the yep right there.

D

Yeah, oh and then there was another call out on the edit from I think the zba plan, but.

D

As a pretends to the planters and burlap or or something about burlap around the trees that got.

O

Pulled on the uh revised yeah and so it'll be more of a lattice or some mesh scenario.

D

uh On recent discussions with tac is they've been very strong about making sure that, when trees are.

E

Delivered to sites they come in at burlap, with on a wire mesh and historically people cut the.

E

Wire mesh pull it out the best they can and then they just trim around the wire. The city is now.

E

um Staff is asking that that wire be entirely removed and all the burlap removed. So that's.

E

That's what they're asking for, and I think it's a reasonable request. This is a curiosity question.

D

Did they discuss how the planters may impact the sight line of that intersection as well.

E

um I don't think anything of ours would be interest impacting the sight lines we have that on.

E

Three and a half foot clear line in the corner yeah and we don't.

E

Have any plantings on our egress or access.

E

And then my last last question, so those are low plantings in the corner and that.

E

Tree is set in away from that 25 foot yeah, it's a great soft edge. I think certainly.

D

um My last question pertains to traffic flow. um They were both call outs in the submitted.

D

Package, as well as from the public comment where the white heron was referenced and as.

D

Someone who walks bikes and drives to white hair and frequently um when that parking lot.

D

Is full? It takes a 17-point turn to get out and get back onto islington and the queue.

D

So if that is under this consideration that we're talking about, I just want to hear that plan.

D

um Because cabot is a signaled intersection and because there is a constrained amount of parking.

E

Excellent question uh we have. The way we laid it out is that on we have that dead, end parking.

E

um So it's actually a safer access from the street and that because it's a very visible site that if.

E

They're coming in off of visiting and come into the site around the back of the building, which may.

B

Or may not happen on they'll be able to turn right as they come in with their head and see. If there's.

E

Any spaces, if there's not, they have to keep going on. Likewise, when they're coming in off of.

E

Cabot street they will see if there are those 12 spaces open. If they're not they're, going to have.

E

To keep going, um um we don't anticipate because of the visibility of the lot that people will on.

E

Point to the light when it's full now, if they see someone, that's getting walking towards.

E

Their car- yes, they might be doing that and then there we can't control that um that conflict.

A

Any other board questions on site plan.

A

I guess we'll have uh we have three public hearings we're going to go through.

A

I guess I'll open up the public hearing on site plan issues.

A

You'll have three minutes the first round: five minutes a second round and I'll see if there's.

A

Any additional time needed for anybody to speak, so I'm going to open up the public hearing now.

A

Everybody was to speak too far against this application.

A

Name and address for the record please.

P

Elizabeth brighter property owner 159, mcdonough street and 342 cabot street.

P

I'm going to use my first three minutes to pass out these papers because I have my.

P

Other three-minute topic is the parking, so I'm going to start with this and then just.

D

These are mine.

Q

I think so I just tell you what I give what I'm passing out. One of them is just a basic synopsis.

P

Of what I'll be talking about, and the other one is um t1 and t2 of this site plan, which.

P

Is about the bat, the rear of the property, and I highlighted on t1 and t2, which are two different.

P

Size trucks, the actual size of the trucks that are presented, because I guess you know you can change.

P

That size to be anything you want, so they did change that and then it shows the one page that.

P

Was the question there's um one one by itself and then three, so you should have gotten three.

P

Pages, sorry, I should have just passed them out. It would have been easier. There's one called possible.

F

Stipulations, there's a whole bunch of extras. I put, I did a total of 11., so just send them yeah.

P

Are you all set, so you should have one that says possible stipulations and the other one should be.

P

Two: a total of three of the truck pages t1 and t2, and the the improved truck thing.

P

So if you look at t1 and t2, I highlighted where the edges, it's called the body of the truck will.

P

Hit the um either this retaining wall or the curb or whatever. So there are a few places that do hit.

P

There's also the little fact that on t1, when the truck comes out of.

P

The driveway it's going to have to get up onto the curb on cabot street, where there are two parking.

P

Spaces parking spaces currently, so that's just something else to keep in mind, so the new and.

P

Improved version, which is the last one, is the one that was just submitted: that of that eric.

P

Talked about as you can see, it only shows the beginning being corrected. It does not show that.

P

The rest of the bumps have been corrected, so there is a significant amount of space.

P

That'll be an issue, so if you think about white heron and you think about what pulls up in front.

P

Of that, in that lovely lane that they use, which is actually the right hand, turn lane.

P

You will recognize quickly that it's a the cisco truck is pretty big, so.

P

Just keep that in mind when you think about t1 t2 and the thing thank you.

A

Anybody else we should speak to for or against this application.

A

Anybody on zoom to raise your hand if you're on zoom, if you wish to speak.

A

No other first round speakers.

A

Second round speakers.

A

P

Elizabeth we're out of property owner 159, mcdonough street and 342 cabot street.

P

It is the site plan that creates the parking and other problems. It is clear that the extra.

P

768 square feet are needed. Please do not approve the site plans until needed has provided more.

P

Parking with lexi's approved plans, which shows possible on this lot tac, asked that the truck.

P

Plans be revised and it's my understanding, they're working on that the new plans do not show how.

P

Trucks will clear the other end of the building, much less the two parking spaces on cabot street.

P

The site plan includes a large outdoor seating area, two large garage doors which will open.

P

It also shows a lounge which has already been discussed. There is no issue with outdoor seating.

P

Or drinking but please say no to the lounge and in this case since that's been prepared.

P

I think it would be best to have something in the writing that says it is not a lounge people.

P

Sitting outdoors and drinking makes it a bar, not a bagel shop, and that could negatively impact.

P

The character of the neighborhood, the outdoor seating proposed is one thousand eight 183 square.

P

Feet for 31 people, the average downtown outdoor seating is much closer to 500 square feet or less.

P

Seats could be arranged around the support beams to create wonderful round tables or cozy couple.

P

Nooks, the large outdoor seating at liars bench is what enabled the many noise complaints for this.

P

Business outdoor seating would be okay, but 1183 square feet for 31 people seems like a bit much.

P

Meeting the parking minimum could be a better use of this space and still provide more than enough.

P

Space for 31 seats outside it will be critical to stipulate neighborhood friendly hours to protect.

P

The over 40 residential units on all sides of this lot, both liars bench and great rhythm, had.

P

Many noise complaints and they were located over 200 feet away from the residential areas.

P

Which could hear them needed will be a mere 15 to 50 feet from their neighbors separate.

P

Stipulations on hours for the outdoor seating, as well as the garage doors being open, could help.

P

Please put a stipulation that all outdoor lights be turned off within 30 minutes. After closing,.

P

According to the guidelines for outdoor lighting, there is no clear evidence that outdoor lighting.

P

Reduces crime: this proposal will be dark sky compliant, but it will still be very bright.

P

The glare will exist for anyone who abuts this building or lives.

P

Within lives below the 10 to 14 foot pole lights, that they're putting in.

P

The ventilation and hvac system are 25 feet from the neighboring property due to them.

P

Sitting on the roof at the rear of the building, as stated at tech, they will be making bagels.

P

But it was not shared that eggs, bacon, french fries, home fries, sausages, ham, grilled chicken grilled.

P

Veggies, hamburgers or veggie burgers would possibly be served as well with these bagels.

P

This would put all the grease and smell upward and will likely go into any open windows at the.

P

Abutting property, which is 25 feet away due to the closeness and them being below the vent. The white.

P

House, which is what well it's called mr whites, but it's the house right next door to them, sits.

P

A little lower on that property, so all of those windows on that side will be affected by the.

P

Vents the vents have a hum which will be heard by neighbors, creating more distance and stipulating.

P

That they be turned off when not in use could help. This all could happen if the site plans.

P

Were adjusted were the plan submitted submitted similar to the approved lexi's plan? There could be.

P

Five more parking spaces, the outdoor seating could be smaller, but it would still be compatible with.

P

To the most of the outdoor seating in downtown the inability for trucks to clear the wheel of.

P

The building will cause them to back up or park on cabot or islington street, impeding traffic.

P

Even more another site plan flaw, which has not been fully addressed even at this time.

P

Looking at this plan, it has increased all previously presented negative issues. It.

P

Ignores all previous public comments and even changed what was presented at the hdc at the.

P

Htc they presented that it was going to be the original canopy, and now it's over 500 feet, smaller.

P

One would think with each new addition that there would be improvements over the last. This.

P

Doesn't seem to be the case. A bagel shop would be welcomed by both neighbors, both neighborhoods, but.

P

Parking truck issues, noise and lighting could have been addressed in a more positive way.

P

The lot is a little over fifteen thousand square feet over thirteen thousand five hundred will.

P

Be altered, leaving 1500 feet unchanged. That's your five minutes, liz! Okay! Thank you. Thank you.

A

Anybody else wants to speak too far against uh mr chairman, uh members of the board on.

R

Behalf of the applicant attorney derek durbin, for the record. I just wanted to put one point.

R

Of clarification out there, because there has been a lot of discussion about the use.

R

um The use itself is classified as a restaurant, with an occupant load in the building of 50 or.

R

Under that is a permitted use in in the zoning district, it doesn't distinguish between bagel.

R

Shops and other types of uses that would would fall into the very general guidelines of what.

R

A restaurant is so we do fit within that framework and obviously there's quite a bit.

R

Of discussion surrounding that at the zoning board before it approved the application, so.

R

It could proceed before this board, so that was it. That was the only I many of the other issues.

R

Mrs sprouter raised are the same concerns that were raised before tac and address before that.

R

Committee before it got to this board as well, so I won't get into those. But I thank you for.

R

Your time and consideration, and I'm sure I'll be back up here again. Thank you. Thank you, foreign.

A

Against, in the second round of speakers we have, we have hands on zoom, okay, just I.

P

Just wanted to clarify something: this is zone cd4l2 cd4l2 allows up to 50 people.

P

For seats, they got a variance for up to 74, just to clarify. We have two people on zoom.

L

uh We do have two people on zoom, but um he might want to speak to that last comment.

L

Yeah that that last comment is, is, um I guess, a misunderstanding, we'll say by mrs prater about.

R

The relief that was granted there was no variance granted for the use at all. We are a permitted use.

R

For an occupant look within the building of 50 or under, and we apply for a conditional.

R

Use permit for the up to 31 persons at a time within the outdoor area. So that's where we fall.

R

Into this process, so I just want to clarify that, because there was absolutely no variance.

R

Or zoning relief requested for uh anything greater than the 50 within the building, so.

R

It's a permitted use, thank you and we haven't gotten a conditional use yet.

L

um Okay, I assume all right bill downing.

A

Bill are you there.

S

Goody, can you hear me? Okay, yes, hi. This is bill downey from 67 bow street. I just want to address.

S

The environmental concerns um I just want to say that I think that mike has probably had as.

S

Much experience as anyone in the community you're dealing pretty much with the a-team with derrick.

S

Durbins as a lawyer and eric weinrep, who has also an extensive amount of experience so in regards to.

S

Things being run properly in coordination with the ds, these aren't three newbies um all the extensive.

S

Ties to the community, I know that derek and eric live here and have extensive careers and if anyone.

S

Who doesn't live here but spends as much time it has to be mike lebre. So, as as a fellow citizen.

S

um They have my respect and trust. Thank you very much. Thank you. Welcome next joe adler.

T

This is jimbo adler, I'm a property owner at 37, sound street. So I'm to the immediate northwest.

T

Of this site, um I just want to voice my support for this project. I think it's great. I walk past.

T

This multiple times a day, I'm literally looking at it out my window right now uh with broken.

T

Concrete and pavement and lights on that are just flickering and not great. So I'm excited.

T

For the improvements to the site, I'm excited for updated lighting. um Franklin said for more.

T

People to be able to enjoy the neighborhood, that's all I have to say. Thank you very much.

A

Anybody else anybody else wish to speak too.

A

Far against this application with regard to the site plan.

A

Let me close the public hearing, discussion of the board and site plan issues.

F

Well, I'd just like to say that um just sticking to.

F

um The impact of the number of people, the noise and the lighting on this neighborhood.

F

That I really agree with the statements that we've heard from a neighbor.

F

um Regarding reducing that outdoor area, after all, I mean everybody's talking about it like it's a.

F

Bagel shop, I don't know how long you linger over your bagels, but I wouldn't think that there that.

F

It was that necessary. It's not like a fine dining restaurant from everything that's been described.

F

So I I think it's a good idea to reduce that area. I don't want to get into the cup, but it's related.

F

To parking I mean, I think, that there's a balance to be a better balance to be had where we could.

F

Have more parking spaces and maybe not such a high capacity as 71 people eating bagels all at once.

F

So I think that there should be changes in the site plan to add parking spaces.

F

Reduce the number of people that will be at this site at any given time.

F

Other than the drive-throughs I mean, obviously there can be a very high volume.

F

Drive through for your bagel kind of thing, um there's no, no, there's no drive through.

F

I I assumed that there is so there's no window out on that note: okay, no! That's not permitted.

A

And it's not proposed, I. I still think that the impact should be minimized as much as possible.

F

For the neighborhood, um I agree about the lights being turned off a half an hour. After closing,.

F

um I actually think maybe some of the polls- I'm not an engineer, but I don't. I think everything.

F

Should be done that it's possible to make it neighborhood friendly in terms of maybe.

F

Lowering the height of some of the lighting poles or putting strings of light inside the.

F

Outdoor area, instead of having brighter lights, you know being careful about the impact on that.

F

Neighborhood in terms of light and noise, um I'd like to see more parking spaces.

F

And I think that's those are my general comments. Just as a point of clarification, this is a.

A

Restaurant, it's not there's not a restriction that you have to eat bagels here. So there will.

A

Be presumably other things being consumed, um the number of people inside the restaurant.

A

That's an issue in the site plan how the vehicles circulate around in and off the site. That's a site.

A

Plan issue trash: you know, snow removal, these sorts of things, they're all sitecline issues.

A

If somebody wishes to make a motion, we can talk about and get a second. We can talk about that. We.

A

Can talk about conditions we can talk about? You know details, but I think that's where we need.

A

To be so, mr chairman, I'll make a motion. We vote to find that the site plan application meets the.

H

Right requirements set forth in the site plan regulation, section, 2.9, evaluation criteria and.

H

Adopt the findings of fact, as presented second corey, would you like to explain? Do you feel that.

A

The that motion addresses some of the comments that came up or enough of them, or so you know we.

H

Are breaking this down into a couple different pieces right? So this is the first of three.

H

um As far as the site plan goes, you know I so I run past this site regularly. In fact, this morning.

H

I ran passed it six or more six in the morning, and you know thinking back to the days of when the rap.

H

Shack was there and things that were going on. I I yes, this is going to be a bigger use than what.

H

We've seen recently, however, I think it's going to be a much better use than what we've seen recently.

H

I think working with tac they push the retaining wall back as close as they could to that property.

H

Line really trying to open up that backspace and I tried to rack my brain on how they could get.

H

um Some additional parking back there and also have the loading as well. Unfortunately, there.

H

Are some easements on the corner of the lot that they can't do anything there? Essentially because.

H

Those are easements for the butter right there, so that's tight, um and this is obviously you know. We.

H

Do have parking to talk about, but I'm just kind of talking about the flow of the site as well.

H

um The other thing that uh traffic flow wise um one thing that was good to see when I was out.

H

There this morning is there's no parking currently allowed on that side of cabin street, so pulling.

H

Out of the site, you're not constrained with your sight lines, certainly looking.

H

um You know on this plan looking up or to the west or northwest you know, you're, there's not.

H

Going to be any vehicles right there, because currently there's no parking allowed. There's.

H

Also, no parking allowed directly across on the block between basically the corner block.

H

Between cabot and islington, so there's not going to be any on-street parking allowed there in the.

H

Future or currently so as far as vehicles coming and going and navigating into that intersection.

H

To me it's about as good as it can get, there's also no parking as well along islington in that.

H

Particular area so sight lines. You know the whole issue of pulling out cars parked it's. I just don't.

H

See it happen happening at this particular site and it's also signalized, so I think from a flow.

H

Standpoint, they certainly worked to the best they could to try to make it make it work.

H

I do agree with the engineer that not having that tree there might work better, but that is a really.

H

Large tree and it would hate to see it go so um by by moving things back I, with the retaining wall.

H

And and the other things that I observed out there, I think I think that's that's good for the site.

H

um The other greening up the site is going to be really nice, especially at the intersection.

H

Currently, there's there's nothing. It's basically, one giant curb cut all the way around.

H

um And having having that green space, there is going to be is going to be certainly helpful.

H

For the site, the other thing as far as uh traffic moving through the site not having a.

H

Drive-Through, I think, is going to help a lot as as a lot of folks know. There's there are issues.

H

Down the road at the uh the dunkin donuts with people queuing and that sort of thing, but it.

H

Shouldn't occur here: yes, you will have people coming and going and pulling in, but uh the.

H

The drive-through issues won't be there so um and then, just briefly on the contaminated soils, front.

H

um You know I certainly understood a lot, what the uh the the design team was discussing and.

H

The nhdes process that they have to go through and continue to go through, particularly on the.

H

Monitoring, it's good to hear that the existing monitoring wells are staying.

H

In place so they'll be able to see face it. You know before construction occurs compared.

H

To after construction and see, if anything was quote, unquote, disturbed and and also the fact.

H

That by redeveloping the site, pulling all the the rain water from the roof um into the storm.

H

Water system collecting in the storm water system, along with repaving the site, is actually going to.

H

Help any sort of groundwater contamination issues currently the site is, you know, cracked pavement.

H

um Untreated roof runoff anything like that, so that currently the storm water is able to.

H

Get into all those cracks and down into the the soils and everything else granted there.

H

Are some landscaped areas on this site that will likely infiltrate, but certainly um collecting the.

H

Majority of the storm water will help so with that being said, I do believe that they, uh they.

H

Meet the findings of fact as presented. Thank you any other. Yes, um do you ease a lot of concerns? I.

B

Thought maybe we could also request that the lounge be relabeled as an open seating area.

B

You know semantics make everyone very happy. um The other requests. I think we could make.

B

Is that it's reasonable to say that the lights, the outdoor lights would be turned off within.

B

30 minutes of closing, I think, that's a perfectly reasonable request to ask for the neighborhood.

A

My only concern environmentally was just the digging of the trenching and when you go through.

A

The ears that have already been mitigated no issues, but you are going to be trenching in places.

A

It looks like that haven't been dug before and so long as you are monitoring it. As you said, you did.

A

All be good, but that material, if you do find something.

A

Needs to be taken care of at that time, and it needs to be.

A

Taken care of so it doesn't blow onto the neighbor's property and all that so.

A

I don't know what to call it an excavation management plan in accordance with des.

A

Requirements does that make sense yeah it does. I mean there are certain stipulations.

H

And I forget what exactly triggered them um and if they're, if this says I have to go through des.

H

They would likely have to look at this, um but there are certainly stipulations that.

H

Oh, I'm! Sorry! No! That's! Okay! uh I know there are current stipulations so that, like every 500 yards.

H

Of material that are hauled off, the site have to get tested um to meet the different soil, s1.

H

S2 standards that des has, when you're bringing it to a different site, you have to meet the criteria.

H

Basically, to make sure you're not increasing contamination at that other site, so to speak so.

A

Well, I just and I'm I don't remember, I've only personally been involved with one of these that.

A

It was very isolated under the old tanks and um I guess the question is: is there testing as the.

A

Digging is happening in places where there hasn't been digging before, and what do you do with that?.

A

I just don't recall we had one other site on the north mill pond. That was quite contaminated and.

A

The ds required no digging whatsoever, so um I guess if we just said in accordance.

A

With whatever requirements of des, but then we can't say that, because it's obvious, mr.

C

Chairman, it's always pertained yeah. I would imagine, and I'd look to peter, to confirm that.

C

This could be a stipulation, that's included in the construction mitigation management.

C

Plan that would be developed with planning and legal as a as part of this decision.

C

um The other things since I have the microphone for 30 seconds. This is good timing, because the.

C

City will be um redoing the section of islington street we're doing very technical term there, but.

C

uh You fall within the window of work that will take place. This construction season.

A

Yes, I think eric pointed that out, so the construction mitigation plan.

A

Disbius special stipulation to address this whatever's required yeah. So when we.

H

Get to do the next next vote. We can put that in the next next section: yeah, okay,.

H

Along with the other ones that councilman are over it up, I think too yeah. I think those make sense.

A

So you have a motion to say: I think we've got before before jane councilman made two suggestions.

A

That was a motion to add. We could do that in the second boat right. We've only done.

C

The first ones this is just finding the fact yeah, I was making suggestions.

F

Well, I I just wanted to suggest that we have a discussion about this issue that.

F

I have about the number of parking spaces versus this outdoor area that the outdoor.

F

Area could be reduced in order to create more parking spaces and how people felt about that.

A

That's a tough one because the parking is actually the conditional use permit.

A

Do you have a problem with the outdoor seating as proposed? Assuming it can be parked, it can be.

F

Parked yes, well, it's it's fine as long as there's adequate parking, but that's conditioning yeah.

F

I don't know I don't know quite how to treat that, because.

F

If we well, we split it and maybe we shouldn't have split it, but we did so we'll deal with that.

A

So it's a site plan, question they're, proposing to add a addition on the back of the building.

A

And to reuse the area under the canopy in the front of the building, those are site plan issues.

A

um Do you have issues with those proposed uses changes? I guess my yes, I do. My issue is that.

F

The outdoor canopy area is so large and that the occupancy level would be so large. I think it's an.

F

Issue regarding the impact on the neighborhood in terms of noise levels, particularly as you're.

F

Heading towards 9 pm the hours of operation we're talking about here and um thank you, I'm just going.

F

To say parking parking in terms of the parking provided on the site plan, so I I do have an issue.

F

About the outdoor area, I think, if it's related to the people in there in the parking, those are the.

A

Next two issues so right, but there's noise levels and there's the the general impact of having.

F

That much business happening there in the small confines of a neighborhood. So it's one.

F

Thing to conduct your business inside walls, it's another to conduct your business in this seasonal.

F

Outside area and the the um businesses that are being compared to this business have very very.

F

Small minimal outside seating areas, they're not anywhere near the scale of the outside seating.

F

Area so I do have an issue with the scale of the outside seating area. Okay, any other.

A

Comments, questions on the findings of fact, yeah. It was moved and seconded.

A

All those in favor opposed, I opposed so we have one opposed.

A

Six in favor, I believe.

H

All right, I will make a motion to vote to grant site plan approval of the following.

H

Stipulations 2.1 through 2.5, as laid out in the staffing memorandum on with a couple.

H

Of changes and additions, so on 2.2 after it calls out the construction management.

H

And mitigation plan, I think we should um with which includes uh addressing possible.

H

Soil contamination, comma for review and approval. That would be one and then 2.6.

H

Would be relabel the lounge to I guess more appropriate term throughout the plan set.

H

2.7 would be ensure that all outdoor lighting.

H

um Is turned off 30 minutes. After closing, I.

H

That's it about change the outsource to give them a label just call it canopy area. Sure.

B

Something I just want to give it, so it's not open area seat area was that a second was it.

B

I did second, yes, okay, any discussion corey. I think you've explained most of that. Yep.

F

I have the same concerns that I have already okay described any other.

A

Board members wish to speak all those in favor aye, aye aye opposed. I posted same whoa.

C

Are we on to parking yes,.

A

Next item two of three: we now have a parking conditional use permit request by the applicant.

A

Under 10 1112.14, you get to start all over again eric.

E

E

I think we have it the narrative laid out quite well in your application package, but I would like.

E

To just point out, one thing that the parking requirements in portsmouth for a restaurant.

E

Is not based on the number of seats it's actually based on the square footage of.

E

The gross floor area and bagel shops. If you look at the floor plan of the architectural drawing.

E

um Have pretty extensive floor area for on the size of the restaurant that it is because of how.

E

They're letting the dough rise and and so forth, so what's driving this 22 spaces 21 spaces is the.

E

Size of the building and not the number of seats. I believe that we have adequate parking on site.

E

With the 12 full-size spaces, the motorcycle moped parking, the bicycle parking and that.

E

The city is spending, I don't know how much money making islington street more.

E

Pedestrian friendly they've already done it on the west end. It looks fantastic. I live in.

E

That area I see people walking where they never walk before and I think you're going.

E

To see more pedestrian access- and I think that this is an acceptable use, I think the.

E

Right density and I'm going to turn a little bit to derek. Thank you. Thank you.

R

I know it's hard um again for the record, derek durbin on behalf of the applicant. I.

R

Know it's hard not to delve into the outdoor um seating issue, given the fact that these.

R

Things are all sort of interrelated, but they've been segregated by motion.

R

um But eric did make a good point um with respect to the building itself, a larger.

R

Building is actually needed due to the fact that you do have bagels, which is that process of making.

R

Bagels, which is the intended restaurant use of the site as it stands now, does require a larger.

R

Space that does draw a lot to the outside areas. That being said, as eric pointed out, the parking.

R

Requirements are based on gross floor area, not upon. I don't want to say, occupant load because.

R

That only applies to buildings but to the occupancy of a site itself. Interestingly, the.

R

Master plan- and I pointed this out in the outdoor seating cup, but it's relevant to the parking cup.

R

um One of the goals was, or one of the statements made within the master plan on page 112.

R

Is to maximize available parking while not creating an overabundance of spaces, because.

R

On-Site parking drives up residential commercial cost. I think, as eric pointed out this, does um you.

R

Know there's a very delicate balance on this site, given the constraints associated with it. Yet the.

R

Zoning is actually trying to drive a much larger, more intensified use of the site than what's.

R

Actually proposed through the site plan, so it is a very delicate balance prior uses of the site that.

R

May have shown more parking were either deemed to not be feasible or failed, which is why they.

R

Never came to fruition, so we can talk about them in the past tense, but that's because they never.

R

um They never they never actually made it to the site itself. I mean they were.

R

I think you know and would have provided only marginally more parking but again smaller bill.

R

Building and and uses which either were not acceptable onto the zoning board or just simply.

R

Economically and feasible, given all the cost and site constraints involved. So with that, I'm.

R

Happy to answer any questions, eric is probably the better one in the parking cep. Thank you. Thank you.

A

B

Where do you plan on parking, your employees.

E

Their intent is actually to use the parking garage. Are they going to be able to? I I live in that.

B

Neighborhood all the employees that even work downtown like to park in that neighborhood and.

B

Since we haven't gotten around to actually doing a parking program, that's my concern is that they're.

B

Not going to pay for the parking garage when they can park much closer and park in the neighborhood.

E

We understand that, but it's it's our intent that they would convey that to their staff.

A

It'll be a suggestion, not a requirement. Thank you.

A

That was, that was a question. I took that as a nod.

E

It's been a long day. I have a question, however, just just to clarify that that'll.

A

Be a suggestion to the employees, not a requirement of the employees, correct, okay, I.

A

Yes, it has been a long day- okay, yes, yes, I didn't understand um so. My question is is also about.

F

um So our the city says that, in order to you know give this conditional use permit.

F

There has to be available parking elsewhere, including at you know, shared lots that are.

F

Relatively nearby, I'm using my own words for that, and so in your application. You point out well.

F

People can park at the foundry garage and they can work, walk the only 2 000 feet. You mean like a half.

F

Mile to walk and get a bagel and then why I guess they'll be working off their bagel. My question to.

F

You is how many times would you personally park at the foundry garage walk all the way to this. I.

F

Don't I don't even like that we're calling it a bagel shop, because we just agreed that it's.

F

Actually, a restaurant so you're walking to the restaurant, whatever it's serving, because I don't.

F

Believe it's a bagel shop anymore. We've exed that out so you're going to a restaurant you're.

F

Picking up or sitting outside and eating whatever and you're walking another half a mile back to.

F

The foundry garage because there aren't any other, unfortunately I don't see any other shared parking.

F

Lots so I understand why you pointed to the garage, but how many times are you going to do that.

E

I personally don't anticipate that a lot of people customers would be utilizing the foundry garage to.

E

Go grab a bagel, I I think we all know that. I think that what we had just mentioned, that that would be.

E

For the staff, it's a high turnover place, we have 12 on-site spaces. The parking is for based on the.

E

Square footage of the building 100 square feet per space. We have ample moped spaces which, with the.

E

Exception of during actual inclement weather, snow events- I see people out today on their moped and.

E

Bicycles riding so it is a viable use. Portsmouth is getting more and more bicycle. Moped friendly.

E

People are using alternative methods to get around. I. I really believe that we have ample parking.

A

Any other questions to the applicant.

A

Thank you, so it's 70 seating for 71. I believe that's I'm starting to buy in the little to.

U

What jane has been saying about parking and the seating kind of exchanging it? You have 12 parking.

U

Spaces and you have four people in each one of those cars using those 12 spaces. That's 48 people.

U

Yeah he's there's, you still have so much seating. It almost seems like you, should exchange.

U

Maybe some seeds for for some like two more spaces, even if, if.

U

You have 12 cars there and then you'll have two people then you're. Only at 24.. You have.

U

24 people there in the restaurant- and you still have you know close to 50 extra spaces.

U

Receding now granted, a lot of people from the neighborhood are going to come. There.

U

And walk there and won't even have a car, but it just seems so. I I live a mile from downtown.

E

I live at the intersection of middle road on lafayette, road and middle street. I never ever.

E

um Go to any restaurants in portsmouth by vehicle! That's a mile from market square.

E

To my house I bicycle I walk. Portsmouth is a walking community. 12 spaces is more than ample.

E

For this type of restaurant, the restaurants in downtown the restaurant that you just approved.

E

Has no parking on site for on 147 congress street we have 12 full-size spaces, five.

E

Moped, an ample bicycles and plenty of places for people to walk. This is not.

E

Any different I live a few blocks away, I can concur, I mean, and I walked everywhere myself.

U

As so, I'm just trying to get my hair in for this 71 seats and parking for 12. yeah.

E

And it's again it a large kitchen for its use.

A

There's there's the issue of weather and what you know are you going to have complete full occupancy.

A

Indoors and out at the same time, that seems perhaps unlikely I think it's highly unlikely.

A

The other thing I'll just say some folks may not want to hear this, but the more parking.

A

You provide you're, encouraging more auto use, so there's a there's a benefit to limiting parking.

A

It's attention it's attention, but there is that it's a balance right.

A

Andrew you had your hand up um more of a comment than the question something I've been toggling.

D

With this, entire time is to james point, uh we've now removed the bagel shop identity and as much.

D

As I want the bagel shop to succeed, because I like bagels- and we need more bagels in this town,.

D

We should also consider that it could just be a different type of restaurant and therefore have a.

D

Different demand for both seating parking and time at the table, so that's kind of where my husband at.

D

um Nonetheless, we also see the kitchen do extremely well, where a lot of people walk and bike.

D

There, for that purpose same applies to cafe killam different hours of the day. So I I guess that's my.

D

Thought process really no question attached, but that's kind of where my sentiment stands.

A

Thank you yes, joe chairman, if I could um I, I do believe that it's a balance, a lot of a lot of the.

M

Establishments that we are mentioning tonight have zero parking spaces and they truly are community.

M

Very community oriented um meeting spaces, I'm speaking of you know the list that's been put.

M

Before us, I'm in the kitchen cafe clean um they, they have zero parking spaces, and I know that.

M

um Being someone that frequents them a lot myself, I mean I live downtown. I I too, I I when I first.

M

Saw this I thought I want to walk here. I want to bring a scooter here. I want a bike here. um This.

M

This is a great balance you talk about, we need to. We need to have a balance. I mean the fact that.

M

They can provide this much parking in this area, for the restaurant is amazing and at some point.

M

Do you want to do you want? Would you rather have less green area for more parking and.

M

Less canopy, I I wouldn't, I think it's is going to be a wonderful. You know, managed.

M

Properly, which I have all the faith in the world, this will be managed properly, based on.

M

um You know someone someone called in tonight just to talk about the track record of of.

M

These business owners in in this city- it's it's flawless, it's a it's! Unbelievably, the.

M

Quality of the establishments are amazing, so I see no reason why that wouldn't continue here.

M

It'd be great, mr chairman, are we? Are we having discussion and comments or are we asked I'm.

F

I'm confused because I have. I have comments about all of the things that have been said, but I think.

F

We're in a question part of the of the discussion right. We haven't made a motion or started to.

F

Actually discuss it amongst ourselves, so can I just make a statement or should I wait well.

A

You should probably wait: let's get through the questions and then we'll get to that. That was.

A

Just as important another point of clarification, this isn't owner specific. This runs with the land.

A

So we have very found, you know top drawer owners here. I understand that disapproval. If it's granted.

A

Runs of the land doesn't run to the owner, so they could step outside and sell it in the parking lot.

A

So any other questions of the applicant's team- I I won't forget you, okay,.

A

No other questions ready for public hearing on this.

A

And open the public hearing.

A

I believe we're talking about parking I can actually use permit for park.

P

Good evening elizabeth bradder property owner 159, mcdon street and 342 cabinet street white heron.

P

Has 28 indoor seats needed is proposing 41 indoor seats and 31 outdoor seats, white heron? If you go.

P

By there you can count, they are using 19 spaces, some are shared needed, shows, 12 spaces and has.

P

No opportunity for shared parking, white, heron and dunkin donuts prove most people only walk.

P

Or bike on weekends, it is the dance of the sugar plum fairies for those of those people trying to.

P

Park in white heron or dunkin donuts, the lack of parking at white heron causes cars to queue up on.

P

Islington street the deliveries which sit in the right-hand lane create more traffic issues, both.

P

Cars and pedestrians crossing at albany street are in serious safety risks. The same thing happens at.

P

Duncan's causing dangerous crossing at cass street and for pedestrians as vehicles as well. There is.

P

No doubt that the lack of parking for both of these business does greatly impact safety and.

P

Travel for all on weekdays, all spaces are used and the overflow is into the street. The problem.

P

Is that every grandfathered business such as kathy killum and the kitchen parking variances given.

P

Such as a white, heron, ncups, add up and those cars all end up in the neighborhoods. The reason why.

P

There is a parking requirement is because you are now in a neighborhood if you are downtown, it's cd5.

P

There is no requirement the requirements change by zoning, this is zone cd4l2, and it has requires that.

P

The parking analysis provided says on busy days, there's 75 seating capacity would be used. That's.

P

55 people there'll be two occupants per car using their analysis, the theory there would be 31 people.

P

That still would need a pace to park. Therefore, 27 spaces are really needed for this law. The parking.

P

Analysis provided demonstrates clearly that one space per 100 square feet is the minimum parking.

P

Needed and 21 21 is a very generous number by the city. The provided analysis does not state.

P

At all that the 12 spaces are adequate, there are no contracts for shared parking. There are no free.

P

Passes being offered to employees or customers for using the garage, will there be a shuttle.

P

For their employees on wet days, because it is six blocks away and that's not a great thing to do in.

P

The rain, where are the two owners going to park chances? Are there will be spillover, parking and.

P

That will end up in the neighborhoods on both sides of cabot street there's also spillover.

P

Currently, from the safeway storage is in all the other businesses on islington street that don't.

P

Have enough parking because cup and variances have been issued, the neighborhood is full. The nine.

P

Spaces, they are short equal all the spaces that are on cabot street, and it is very likely that the.

P

First time a truck makes that corner they're going to need to reduce it to seven spaces. Thank you.

A

Thank you. Anybody else like to speak too far against this application.

V

Karen denicola 198 islington and 381 cabot, I just want a clarification. Did you say that there is.

V

No parking on cabot street between islington and the entrance and exit to this parking lot.

H

The sign I saw today said no parking, this side of street correct.

V

um What would be the west side, but on the east side there are at least two parking spaces and.

V

I think it is going to be a little hard to come out of there yeah yeah, now that you mentioned that.

H

There was there's a sign that says no parking from here to corner about halfway down right.

V

And my other comment is that the last meeting I attended, I was told that.

V

um The hours were going to be early morning to say, mid-afternoon and now I'm hearing something.

V

Different so since I will be living across the street, I am concerned about the noise.

V

Very concerned about their lives. Thank you. This is open until 10 o'clock. Thank you. Thank you.

A

Anybody else like to speak 2-4 against this application regarding parking.

A

Anybody on zoom anyone on zoom like to comment, um raise your hand.

A

S no more first-round speakers any second round speakers.

A

P

Property owner 159 mcdonough street 342 cabot. I just wanted to point out.

P

On the little list that I gave you that there there are um there's information.

P

About parking over the last 10 years, as well as the parking analysis provided by.

P

um By needy and I yeah and it shows the parking trends that have happened lately, thank you.

A

Thank you. Any anybody else wish to speak too far against this application regarding parking.

A

Now we have somebody on zoom yeah, uh joe adler,.

T

Joe adler, again property owner, 37 salem street, I would say just regarding parking.

T

Here I'm impressed they they're able to find 12 parking spots on their site plan, maintain.

T

The existing building, I think, even without the addition, maybe you gain one or two spots.

T

um For anyone that would be against approving a parking variant, I would just ask.

T

What sort of business would work here? Absent apartment variants.

T

Like is it better for this to be vacant forever, then give a parking variance.

A

A

Far against this application concerning parking.

A

I'm gonna close the public hearing.

A

Do we need we might want to consider special findings related to parking as we proceed.

A

That just to something that we can do that we don't have to.

H

Chairman, I'm sorry, yes, jane yeah. I I think now is the time for a statement, so I would just like.

F

To point out that, as the planning board, we are here representing the best interests of all of.

F

The citizens of portsmouth, not just the people who are downtown citizens, we've got taxpayers.

F

That live two miles from market square three miles from market square. Are we creating strata amongst.

F

Citizens, when we give these anecdotes that oh I live downtown, so I can walk to the kitchen.

F

So it's no problem for me when you, when you're living farther out of town these issues around.

F

Parking it's becoming. I've used the term before and I'm going to use it again parking wars for.

F

People who live more peripherally, but still in portsmouth and still pay taxes in portsmouth also.

F

The way that the city is developing, its complete streets is uneven, it's understandable, but I just.

F

Want to point out, because it is related to access to these different restaurants, that.

F

It's not as easy for someone to jump on their bike when you live two miles away from the mark.

F

From market street and try to maneuver through half complete streets and sometimes sidewalks.

F

And sometimes no sidewalks to also access these small businesses, so I'm all for small businesses.

F

I this isn't against some particular developer, as has been insinuated at all, but I hope this.

F

Isn't a buddy system? Oh my goodness! I I do not appreciate it yeah, please, please, please, please.

A

Please everybody just stop, but I will say that we have a parking ordinance that that is stipulating.

F

As their own parking demand, analysis shows that they need nine or ten more parking spots and that.

F

They have made available. Yes, I would like to see the lot developed. Yes, I would like it developed.

F

In in the spirit of community of portsmouth, but that's not that's not my to do my to do- is.

F

To uphold the ordinances and not not allow for so many variances that we increase the parking.

F

Wars that we already have for people who don't conveniently live downtown in condos and can just.

F

Walk a block away from their residence to access these different places. It's for all citizens.

F

I think that's my my point. I I'm not in favor of allowing for a variance on this property.

F

For parking, okay, it's a conditional use permit, but I understand your point any other comments.

H

Mr chairman, for just so, we have something to for additional discussion I'll make a.

H

Motion that we vote to find that the conditional release permit application meets the criteria set forth in section 10.112.14.

H

To adopt the findings of fact, as presented second.

H

So you know it this one is this one is very tricky because.

H

It's it's a. um I certainly see a lot of the the points being made on both sides.

H

um From folks that uh feel that you know there there's definitely not enough parking to um to.

H

Other comments that have been made by the public that there is enough parking. You know I just.

H

To me, there's no possible way to actually meet the required parking on this site, even without.

H

The additions um you just you won't be able to get the traffic flow or anything else, and it's.

H

Actually going to be, you know adding more cars coming through and I apologize. I was um incorrect.

H

On the two spaces on cabot street, um there is a sign there that says no parking from here to.

H

Corner on the north east side of cabot street, but there are two parking spaces there, but I think.

H

Also, looking at um you know, I guess, for starters, just kind of looking at the the master plan.

H

And it does kind of it does call for balance. um You do have to balance the parking, but also the.

H

The pedestrian scale out here- and I think I mean just looking at that site plan- it's it's pretty.

H

Well, balanced, half the site is parking, the other half is building and the remaining is essentially.

H

um Third is green: the remaining is to actually get the cars through the site. So to me, it's it's.

H

Meeting the requirements of the master plan now that master plan is going to be updated at some.

H

Point in time, and maybe the community wants to see more parking and less pedestrian friendly.

H

um Development, but that's that's something to discuss in the future. The master plan that we're.

H

Working with now um calls for the balance, and I think we see that the other thing just to kind.

H

Of go on the comment about um you know, folks, out of town not being able to walk or bike or.

H

Anything like that is the city is investing in the rail trail that is going to be coming down.

H

um All the way, basically um through the entire length of uh for portsmouth.

H

um For I forget exactly how far, if they're going all the way up to ocean ocean.

H

um But coming all the way down to barberry and then coming off, barberry and crossing the bypass.

H

And coming past west end yards and coming down this way granted, if you are on a bike, you do.

H

Have to cross through the bartlett intersection, um there is a current sidewalk there, along with.

H

The crossing and everything else, which will be somewhat redevelop when that that uh that.

H

At least I I believe so when the uh everything is fully built out through there, but I think.

H

The intention is, folks, are going to be able to come down in either on a bicycle or walking or.

H

Running or, however, they choose to be able to go through the bartley intersection and then come.

H

Down islington, with the same thought and theory that islington as it's being reconstructed, is.

H

For for more of a pedestrian friendly, bicycle friendly atmosphere, so I think I think the site.

H

Does create a good balance? I mean it's, it's a it's a former gas station. We all know how you.

H

Know, traffic issues with those um coming and going in the mobile station down the road and such but.

H

I'm willing to move this forward in its current form I'll be interested to see if others have.

H

Ideas about you know any changes or additional stipulations to make it work better, but I just.

H

I don't think um I think the balance is there um in aligns with the master plan. Thank you.

A

Anybody else, yes, I concur with everything the vice chair has said regarding this parking conditional.

B

Use permit, I am extremely concerned in why I asked about the employees is because people who are.

B

Coming just to visit a restaurant don't stay more than an hour or two they're, not really the people.

B

Who impede on the neighborhood for extra parking? So that's not the issue. It's the people that are.

B

Going to go be there all day are going to come at 11 o'clock in the morning and leave at 8 o'clock.

B

At night, those are the people that kind of take up the neighborhood parking when people are trying to.

B

Get home from work and find parking, so that is my concern so as long as they are strenuously.

B

Pushing their employees to park in the garage or public lots, then I'm fine with that. I certainly.

B

Hope they're successful in doing so uh because I will hear about it, I live just a few blocks away.

B

I will hear it hear about it as a city counselor, and I certainly hope that they will uh be.

B

Heed to that, so I have no problem with the amount of parking based off the fact that you know the.

B

People visiting the restaurant don't stay for a very long time and therefore they're not going to.

B

Cause the parking issue that um long-term parkers cause issues. So that is my added to the comments.

A

Yesterday, I'd just like to respond to that, because I actually really disagree with that hypothesis.

F

I think that the added traffic of the over spill in the neighborhoods will be pretty constant and.

F

It'll be a constant problem: people aren't only home starting at 5 pm. We have more people who.

F

Are remote working? We have people are trying to get groceries and just live their lives. I think.

F

The impact of the 10 spaces, plus, because there's really spaces that are built up from all of the.

F

Little restaurants that are up and down the street, but just looking at these 10 spaces, I think it is.

F

Too much for the little neighborhood.

A

Yes, peter, I see and agree to both sides of this equation here. What jane is saying.

U

What corey has said it if you look at the location of this spot versus some of the.

U

Other restaurants, that we're getting compared to this spot is surrounded by housing, where.

U

Your up at white heron, it's much more business basis and there's there is a little bit more.

U

Density of homeowners and parking needs and a and the rail trail doesn't really help in the winter.

U

For for bicycling- and you know, unless there's snow on the ground anyways- um maybe there's some type.

U

Of compromise to exchange um some of that outdoor seating for a parking spot or two to increase.

U

The number from 12 spaces not necessarily up to the full bound but somewhere, you know closer to.

U

Like 14 or something total spaces, I think that might make more sense and or maybe you make them.

U

So that they're swappable, so they can shut this and keep them as parking spaces or and they can.

U

Swap them out for seating if or outdoor seating, if if they don't need the parking.

U

But I do think I do think.

U

It should be some availability for additional parking if needed,.

U

Because they're, it's all neighborhood parking all around there for a couple of blocks. Mr chairman,.

M

Yes, if I could just to clarify a couple of things and then and then even offer a suggestion and and.

M

I'm surprised that it it the level of concern for parking in the neighborhood and the idea of or.

M

The request for the owner to consider after hours parking for the neighborhood that hasn't even been.

M

Brought up as a consideration, I don't. I would not make that a stipulation or ask them to do that, but.

M

Here you have a site on the top of islington street that has more parking than all of the.

M

Businesses up the top half of islington only before you get to dunkin donuts and the large.

M

Building next door, do you start to see large parking lots all of the businesses and and yes,.

M

It's very residential, it's also very mixed use on those instant street there's a lot of offense.

M

There's a lot of apartment buildings, there's a lot of residences and I don't in any way need.

M

To suggest that they're, you know that their residents aren't very important here. I, when.

M

I say that I live downtown, I'm not saying it as some kind of class warfare or anything like.

M

That I've lived with massive amounts of noise. All around me. I have no parking myself and I I exist.

M

Downtown and it's wonderful- and I think this will be another wonderful experience, downtown.

M

But I mean perhaps- and I wouldn't want to make it an official stipulation to emotion. But I.

M

Would bet this owner would be willing to speak to this neighborhood and talk about potential.

M

Use of this precious parking for the neighborhood after hours potentially, but I mean let's get.

M

Creative here this this is this- is this offers an amazing amount of parking as it is, and I just.

M

I'm not being disrespectful to any suggestions. It's just. I just don't think two more parking.

M

Spaces are going to solve this neighborhood's parking issues. I think this will be a very.

M

Vibrant improvement to what has been a very troublesome sight for decades and it's it.

M

I know someone earlier on the design team didn't want to refer to this as an eyesore.

M

But it is, it is, this is just the look of this is just has been awful for years and.

M

We have another protect, maybe fleeting opportunity to grab it and make it work. This time.

M

And I'd hate for two parking spaces to be the demise of this application. It's just.

M

M

I mean I mean, that's all that's all. I.

M

U

It's more than two it's they're they're under by ten. Well, I understand, but there's.

M

A suggestion that you made a suggestion that maybe just trying to find stuff, I.

M

Understand and I I appreciate that- I really really do, but if.

C

Mr chairman, if it's appropriate with all the questions well, actually I had a comment.

A

The moped motorcycle parking on the side that could be made into a parking space and I'm not.

A

Suggesting it should be a motor vehicle parking space. I prefer it the way they've designed it. I.

A

Think it's a very current way to think about this site. I think it's promoting what we need to be.

A

Promoting in this area- and one thing I will say from the studies that I've done usually the worst.

A

Offenders for the people who take the parking nearest to use are the owners and the employees.

A

If there's not a restriction they will park in the neighborhood, they may tell.

A

You they didn't, but they will and I'm not sure if we can put a stipulation that employee park.

A

Cannot park on street, I don't know that we can require them to park in the garage.

A

um But I am concerned about employees in the owner's parking. That's my.

A

My biggest concern uh with respect to parking: could you squeeze more parking there? You could.

A

With producing the green space a little bit, but I can tell you if you open up the canopy to put.

A

Parking in there you've got to get vehicles in and out of it so now you've eliminated the.

A

Moped parking, you've eliminated parking spaces. You already have in the parking of this there.

A

So it's not a it's, not a simple direct swap unless you're helicoptering in.

A

Which, I doubt don't think we're going to be jetsoning to this restaurant anytime soon. So.

A

It's as one of the neighbors said it is for this site, it's proposing quite a bit of parking, so.

A

It's a balance, it's you know it's, uh but it's also not a suburban location and I I'd hate to see it.

A

I mean the parking out front that they did get a variance for is somewhat suburban in design, but.

A

Would it be better if the building was completely wrapped with surface parking? I don't think so.

D

I I was wondering about the moped spaces myself and trying to think. I understand why they put that.

H

In there, because they were able to get rid of one or two was it just one? um Looking to the cities, I.

L

Think it would, it would just accommodate one full parking space yeah, so they were able to yeah. Okay.

H

So but I also have con the reason I didn't bring out during site plan review was because.

H

The issues with using that getting in and out of there that sort of thing, I think, the best use for.

H

That space would be employee parking, dedicated employee parking, possibly now, if you didn't, if.

H

We and I don't know if it's possible or not, and I don't want to design anything but if.

H

um Particularly in the winter months, because you're not going to have mopeds there in the winter and it's going to be dead space in the winter. So is there any reason that would take care.

H

Of one permanent employee parking spot there, I wouldn't want to see a customer just because it's.

H

It's uh getting in and out of there is going to be tricky, but well we just.

A

Approved the site plan that shows moped parking, so we can't change that. I don't. I.

A

Mean unless somebody wants to do a motion for reconsideration, I do not encourage that at all.

A

um I I mentioned it because I think it's it's good the way they did it. I think it's it's a good. It's.

A

A good use of that space- I know, I'm not the. I can't believe I'm the only person that thought.

A

You could put a motor vehicle in there andrew. You have your hand up just a really quick comment.

D

They're bagels like if we're gonna go along with that business plan. They're big those people are.

D

Going to want to go in and out they're going to grab their bagel off the counter they're going to leave in the winter that moped parking could be to go parking and they'd, grab it and go, and they.

D

Leave and because it's not a circulation into the 12 parking spaces, where there's a bunch of it's.

D

Like that's the best place to go in and out within two minutes, and that to me is the easiest way to.

D

Do that in the winter in the summer spring months fall months, great for parking, uh moped, bicycle.

D

Etc, not a stipulation just a thought: it's probably how it's going to get used.

C

So ubereats is like we have, we have a motion without any conditions. We.

A

Have a second we've talked about possible changes. uh Employee parking has come up the.

A

One person who lives in the neighborhood doesn't seem to be too concerned about it.

B

I think, still in the findings of x, correct, well yeah we're getting there, but you know.

A

I think it's it's a global conversation. If you want to wait, we can wait on that topic.

M

I I can't help, but just as a reminder as well there there is an employee parking program.

M

um That could be taken advantage of here as well. For correct, I mean the foundry right yeah, it's a.

M

Foundry, it's it's a it's a steeply discounted rate for workers, downtown and establishments like this.

M

That encourages the use a bit more right. The idea is, it's: three dollar parking for a 10 hour shift.

C

Assuming the person doesn't move the car during the day and you can get that 20 times a month.

U

For that condition, if you have to be working in the debt, the downtown district versus cd4.

U

A

Okay, so with respect to the findings, any additional findings, we good with the findings that.

A

They've been listed and given to us.

A

We have a motion and a second to adopt the findings of fact, as presented.

A

All those in favor opposed- I am so.

U

Half in half out so I'm going to go. Did you did you vote.

U

I'm gonna say opposed. Excuse me opposed converted opposed okay.

L

Five to two 62. we're eight people.

A

Three: six: two: okay, I can't count. I can't count how many people.

H

So, mr chairman, I'll make a motion: we vote to find that the number of off-story parking spaces.

H

Provided will be adequate and appropriate for the proposed use of the property and to grant.

H

The conditional use permanent as presented second now, just thinking on a stipulation I didn't know.

H

If so, we did just grant the site plan approval, but I'm just wondering if there's a way to if, if they.

H

Could discuss with the planning department the use of those moped spaces as either moped spaces or.

H

Vehicular spaces and do an administrative approval as long as there's no there's no curb changes on.

H

The site, if they're, just it's just a matter of changing the markings on the ground or signage.

B

Might might I make a suggestion that it kind of goes with outdoor dining if.

B

There's outdoor dining, it's moped seating. If it's off season, then that could be.

B

Other parking- maybe it's something in that range.

B

Offering a suggestion not saying you have to, I suppose, there's times people.

B

Might ride a moped and not eat outside, but.

A

Was that uh I guess that would be a stipulation added to the added to the motion.

L

Could you just restate them.

H

um That um the applicants to work with the planning department to review the possible.

H

Use of the moped spaces as a car space during the seasonal use during during yeah off season use.

A

So it was that was actually part of your motion.

A

And you seconded that, yes you're good with that, I'm good with that! Yes,.

B

Maybe it's possible: maybe it isn't, but at least they can investigate it and see right.

A

You talked about employee parking, anything on that.

A

No doesn't matter, I just think it'd be hard to.

B

Enforce no matter what we come up with, it'll be near impossible to enforce so.

A

Well, you get a ticket. If you go in the garage you can show that to the employer, but.

A

I'm going to call a question unless somebody jumps up.

A

Any other discussion I was gonna, say I really appreciated joe's idea of the.

U

Overnight parking for residents, so many businesses downtown have turned their.

U

Thoughts into profit centers that they don't even manage- and this is not downtown but that'd- be a.

U

Great good will for the neighborhood. I think if, if they offer that and it's not a part of.

A

What we're talking about yeah, but it's a good idea. You can always present it as a good idea.

A

We have a motion in a second on the parking cup. All those in favor aye opposed.

A

We have a conditional use permit application for outdoor dining. I believe.

R

Thank you, mr chairman, members of the board, again derek durbin for the record on behalf.

R

Of the applicant, um there is uh the application before you for conditional use permit for the.

R

Outdoor seating, the outdoor seating is the brown shaded area on the plan. um The outdoor seating.

R

Area is designed to accommodate up to 31 people at one time the intent behind it is really to.

R

Give the business owners some optionality on a seasonal basis to allow people to make use.

R

Of that outdoor space and to really activate that and the streetscape there to draw it, um people in.

R

Really is kind of like a neighborhood gathering place in that respect. I guess you know it is.

R

Designed to to draw people locally in um from the neighborhood, uh the um uh other purpose behind it.

R

Is really to make use of a space under a canopy that the htc itself I didn't participate in, that.

R

Process but I followed it- the htc was very much in favor of keeping that canopy. It is considered.

R

To be it's within the historic district, this property, so it's considered to be historical.

R

um Despite the way it looks in its present condition, I think there was some desire to sort.

R

Of create a new look to it, while also retaining many of the elements of the old look. This is.

R

An appropriate use under the canopy, it's a use, historical use at this point of of the space into.

R

The canopy is this board may recall, or, as each of you individually is residents of portsmouth.

R

um The wrap shack, which I also represented, was approved to make outdoor use for the same.

R

Exact purpose as this of that space, it did operate successfully in terms of there weren't complaints.

R

About that particular use that I'm aware of from reviewing the files it didn't make it there. You.

R

Know economically, I think that what was there was not necessarily ever potentially going to.

R

Be a real, feasible, long-term use of the site. Their plan was always to expand into the building and or.

R

Expand the building as part of that use, so I I think this is a a very appropriate use. I think.

R

It coincides very well with the proposed use of the building. I do want to point out since.

R

I do believe it's relevant. The the occupancy load allowable within the building itself is.

R

Up to 50, however, as designed it would not accommodate up to 50 people. It would be.

R

um I know the numbers have been like between 40 and 43. There.

R

I think you can expect, particularly um you know. After covet hit, people started really gravitating.

R

More towards outdoor spaces, on a seasonal basis that you're going to see people not necessarily.

R

A full loading of the the maximum maximum loading of the site, the outdoor space and the interior.

R

Space at one time, you're probably going to see people choosing do I want to eat indoors today.

R

In the summertime, or would I rather sit out and have a coffee out in the sort of courtyard if.

R

You will area of the property. The outdoor space will be buffered to eliminate conflict between.

R

Pedestrians and vehicles entering the site to the I believe it's the westerly portion.

R

Of that outdoor area there will be ballards to the southerly portion of that outdoor area. You'll see.

R

That there are some evergreen like plantings that we'll be put place. They'll also serve.

R

The dual purpose of buffering from any potential noise, although the noise along islington street.

R

From vehicular traffic that ambient noise is greater than anything that would come off of.

R

Use of the outdoor area itself to the west of the border of the outdoor area, you'll, as you can see,.

R

There there's going to be some box planners as well, so that so the area will be safely buffered.

R

Speaking to maybe a comparable example, you have the kitchen that predates the conditional.

R

Use permit process in portsmouth, as do many of the other eating related establishments along.

R

Islington street, if not, I think, actually all of them. At one point, I think it was peter that I.

R

Asked and when's the last time you you remember the planning board, granting and conditional use.

R

Permit for this area, nobody could remember these businesses do predate that. But if you.

R

Look at the kitchen itself: it has 24 outdoor seats, pretty comparable here, the opposite of.

R

The spectrum you have the lighter suspension 50. indoors, the kitchen is comparable in terms.

R

Of what its occupant loading is, I think it's it's roughly about the same, so you have a very.

R

Comparable use here, except that you have greater accessibility, more activation along the street.

R

Greater accessibility from the perspective of vehicles and the ability to park on site, but.

R

Also, just for people coming off the street as well, that are, pedestrians are on a bike.

R

So, for those reasons I hope they'll grant the conditional use permit for this particular use.

R

Not necessarily relevant, but I alluded to it earlier- the zoning on the site. If you look back.

R

At the zoning history behind what was granted at the zoning board relevant to this use is.

R

There were a lot of variances, but, interestingly, if you look at the variances we're granted, they.

R

Were all variances till make a less intense use of the the site? Have a much smaller building use.

R

Much smaller, overall use of the property, the zoning that's in place here- is really calling.

R

For a much larger building, of course, that eliminates any balance on the site, because.

R

You wouldn't have parking, and you wouldn't have some of the amenities that we're providing here.

R

In conjunction with the uses, so I just wanted to point that out because it it.

R

Was very interesting, you know looking at it from a zoning perspective, because you know.

R

Pure zoning perspective, you have a building, that's almost covering the whole site from.

R

Sideline to sideline so and being brought a little bit closer to the street than what what this is so.

A

Thank you. Any questions for attorney durbin.

H

Yes, so how much of the um roof, so it looks like you're keeping the canopy.

H

Frame but you're removing half the roof is that correct? Go ahead? Look at our design guy here.

O

Hello again, robert wedemeyer, with winterholden um yeah. Basically uh the canopy, as is, is supported at.

O

The building and then has four columns along the uh what used to be where the pumps were.

O

um We are looking to essentially um remove the decking of that canopy on the street.

O

Side along the street side from the column line towards the street, removing all of that.

O

And then the bay to the east side also uh the idea being uh first off just to.

O

um Get more sunlight into the area which then allows us also to get some plantings.

O

Further back off of the street, which is ideal because it allows us to get a nice.

O

um Screen of that evergreen there next to the uh the exterior ceiling, is referenced before.

H

Okay, so roughly about a sorry chairman can follow up. Yes, so.

H

The the front portion where you're removing the roof, that's all going to be green space.

H

And then the portion nearest the parking lot on the other part of the l. That's going to be outdoor.

H

Seating is that it's it's part of outdoor seating, again, the idea being that um being seasonal, we're.

O

Providing the shaded outdoor area a sunny outdoor area and and where is the in the main entrances on.

H

That side too correct the main entrance. You can kind of see. Yes, the main entrance doesn't change.

O

So, if you're familiar where the main interest is now, that's, that's it still. Okay, thank you.

M

If I just could it's a minor point, but the other wonderful thing about the amount that you've left.

M

Of canopy is, is, you know, shade is nice as well in the in the heat of summer and also.

M

In the events of rain or even soft rain, you could still be out there, which is, which is nice.

A

Any other questions of the design team, the applicants.

A

Yesterday, yeah, is it possible to provide uh some of your quote robust landscaping.

F

um Under that canopy, so that there's green spaces for what you call your community.

F

Meeting space. Because when I look at page 98 attached to your application, which is.

F

From our master plan, it shows a vision of huge green spaces in portsmouth, surrounded.

F

By these different restaurants and businesses in retail, is there any way to maximize that.

F

Robust landscaping, so we have a landscape plan that we that we can probably review real, quick.

O

So as direct, I guess to your question about under the canopy, um as you can see, we have if we go from.

O

Islington heading towards the building we've got the public sidewalk. We've got our walk heading.

O

Towards the main entrance, that's uh got biking or bike parking on either side, and then you can see.

O

We've got a strip there, that's actually under the canopy, which is why we stripped away some.

O

Of that to allow lights that those are actually plantings in a planning bed and again, the idea.

O

Is they they're going to be taller, evergreen type plants to provide um not only it's? It's a two-way.

O

Buffer, you know, the people that are sitting in the outdoor area are going to get some buffering.

O

From the traffic off of islington and then vice versa, the people that are there are going to be.

O

Buffered, you know buffering any conversation or whatnot out into the public area. There.

O

Beyond that, we have um in the limited areas of greenery that we were able to get onto this site.

O

um A pretty extensive planning plan um that again I mean considering that we're going from.

O

A complete asphalt to some areas of actual plants and trees and the idea that we were able to keep.

O

That very mature maple into the back area um and then referencing our previous discussions of.

O

Trying to get as much parking as we can that seems reasonable and I mean again we're back.

O

To balance on this so um but since we've already discussed the possibility, which has been rejected.

F

About replacing some or all of the outdoor patio, the outdoor canopy with parking, would you be.

F

Willing to replace some or all of the outdoor patio with green space, what uh we're replacing.

O

Essentially, a third of it already with green space and again, as we've discussed a few times,.

O

This is sort of an idea of most people are either going to be outside during nice time or they're.

O

Going to be inside so to be able to provide similar levels of seating is uh an ideal goal.

O

For the for this restaurant so to be difficult to cut more into that with just plantings when again.

O

We either have to remove more of the canopy in order to get light there, so the plants actually.

O

Are successful or you know again, I it you know it's that balance that we keep talking about.

E

It we do have yeah a little section that is open, but what we're we will.

E

Do is when you lay out the chairs and the and the tables and so forth, just like in any other.

E

um Seating environment for a restaurant there'll be some plants in there, but we're not showing.

E

Them, as you know, dedicated at lower left-hand corner is going to be a an interior plant or an.

E

Exterior plant they'll be part of that seating plan. There'll be some sort of greenery to break.

E

Up the area further, like you mean planters, that kind of thing yeah planters, so that they're not.

E

Going to be there year round, because they'll most likely be stuff that you want to take in.

E

And not subject to the winter months, so it's not going to just be a rectangular area with.

E

Seats and tables it's going to have you know the ambiance of plants and so forth in there.

E

Corey, you had a question just curious um and I apologize if, if this has already been presented,.

H

But when you guys went through all the other various boards and and um commissions and.

H

Stuff did they require the reduction in basically that that roof or pushing more green space back.

H

Or how did how did this design take place? Was it purely just a design point of view, or was it.

H

Was it pushed by uh you know, zoning or other groups, or anything like that? I know I mean.

O

That's that's uh mainly a design choice. Okay um and again I mean, I think, we kind of touched on.

O

Why yeah we we opted for that. It's no longer a gas station canopy, but we wanted to again keep.

O

Sort of the history of it it was a service station, um so we want people to look at it and sell that.

O

Was a service station? Oh wait! Now it's something different and you know sort of the curiosity of it.

F

And then I just have one more question, which is you stayed in your application and in the.

F

Checklist that there will be no noise impact on the neighborhood. Do you stand by that statement.

O

Say anything I I wrote that so I'll take responsibility for that and accountability.

R

um Yeah, that's correct, I I think we would absolutely um stand by that.

R

I I think that, uh had there been an impact impact associated with the prior use, the rap shack, which.

R

um Was all essentially ended up just entirely being outdoors utilizing that area plus.

R

Actually, where the um vehicle sat itself, probably a slightly greater area um there, weren't weren't.

R

Any at least cited to complaints um by neighbors we're actually adding plantings and other.

R

Buffering around this particular use that didn't exist then, as well as I think it's very easily.

R

Demonstrated that the vehicular traffic and noise generated from islington street itself.

R

Mute a lot of the noise across uh where this site is projecting onto other properties, so.

R

I think yeah there is no detrimental noise impact to surrounding properties.

R

I we wouldn't design a site to to have that effect. It's not good for business and it's not.

R

um In keeping with the goals of any of the ordinances, but you are comparing a food truck.

F

That had like 12 people sitting outside of it to 31 potential seating capacity. Here there was a.

R

Capacity of greater than 12, with the with the rap shack and I'm not drawing a comparison. The.

R

Wraps that only the use of that particular area, I think we're a much better designed use of that.

R

Particular area and we've put in place a much better design and planting plan than that had.

R

That said, I think if you took all the plants away, I think you're still hearing vehicular traffic if.

R

You're on the other side of islington street, more so and you're hearing people sure you're going to.

R

Hear people from time to time that's a incidental part of living in downtown portsmouth, but.

R

um In terms of when you're trying to determine whether that is a a factor that.

R

um Is out of balance or is detrimental in a unreasonable type of way? I would say: no, it's not.

R

And I would certainly stand by that statement or I wouldn't have put it in the narrative.

A

Any other questions for the applicant team.

A

They're open to public hearing, if there's no other questions.

A

Public hearing on the conditional use permit for outdoor seating.

P

Good evening elizabeth bradder property owner 159, mcdonough street 342 cabot street.

P

um I do want to compliment them on one thing, and that is that they put a pergola up on the.

P

Top which will help to reduce the way the noise bounces around, without that it would really bounce.

P

They probably should consult a noise person as to what direction those sins should go, because that.

P

Could make a difference? I will also like to share with you at seven o'clock at night. If you walk.

P

Down islington street there is very little quiet traffic and it's very quiet. I want to be sure.

P

That only 31 people can be out there and that that will be enforced because with those garage doors.

P

That open those those 43 people who are inside can very easily mosey on out and stand outside.

P

Or be outside, so I want to be sure, that's covered. This area is 1183 square feet for 31 people. That's.

P

38 square feet per that's 38 feet per person that you can really lounge there. You could lay on the.

P

Ground and and have nobody be near you, so this is an enormous thing. There are houses in portsmouth.

P

That are smaller than that. The new cups are smaller than that. I mean they yeah adus. I'm sorry.

P

um This is a big concern and you've already talked about the lighting being turned off that the hours.

P

For this should be limited as soon as you open your windows from april, all the way to november.

P

Within any of those units, the 40 units that surround it, that is surrounded by residential.

P

Unlike the other ones, and it's very close, you're talking 15 to 50 feet, you are right on top of them,.

P

There will be noise, these people are going to be drinking. The wrap shock did not, as far as I know,.

P

Serve any excuse me any alcohol, but we already know that great rhythm and liars bench have the.

P

Same doors and they have noise, that's unbelievable. It's been complained about for many years and they.

P

Finally, the city has finally gotten it under control, so I don't have a problem with having.

P

Outdoor seating, I just want the people who are out there to be respectful of the fact that the other.

P

Person who's in that building next to them might have to get up at five o'clock in the morning to.

P

Go to work so please limit those hours for outdoor seating, especially during the week.

P

When most people work, but a lot of people who work shift work, they also have to work on weekends. If.

P

You have a nurse living next door; they still have to work from 11 to 7 or from from 3 to 11 or from.

P

Or seven to three, so they still be. You are in a neighborhood, you are not in the west end. This is.

P

A neighborhood thank you. Thank you. Anybody else wish to speak too far against this application.

A

Regarding the outdoor seating, anybody on zoom.

A

Second round speakers.

A

Last call I'm going to close the public hearing. Public hearing is closed.

A

I have a tired planning board.

Q

uh Mr chairman, is it, is it appropriate just to ask a question of clarification on.

Q

The fact that there's no there's no request for any outdoor music there's no speakers, there's.

M

No, it's not a part of the application, that's not part of the application, and, if that were.

M

Some that that wouldn't be a separate application completely if there was any music that would that.

M

Can't just happen, I mean we don't regulate music, it's under noise, it's a noise ordinance but yeah.

C

Mr chairman, typically music is sometimes a stipulation or a component of a liquor.

C

Review consideration, so if that were I mean, if you're, if you're.

L

Speaking about live entertainment, yes, there is outdoor entertainment.

L

Use okay! So if they're just playing music on a radio that we can that's not regulated.

A

The weather receptions I hear from where I am down, what's that I hear a lot of wedding.

A

Receptions that seem to shut off around 10, or so I don't know ordinance yeah.

A

Yes, corey, so I will make a motion that we vote to find that the conditional use permit application.

H

Meets the criteria set forth in section 10.243.20 and adopt the findings effect as presented.

A

Is there a second for just a second.

H

So, just speaking on this, um I at first you know kind of threw me for a loop, a little.

H

Bit, I didn't realize um just how much they were. I guess include how much green space.

H

They were actually including under the canopy until I you know, until we dove into this cup.

H

um It's pretty impressive uh in the fact, also that over more than half of it is going to be open. So.

H

You know if it's raining out implement weather that sort of thing you know it's.

H

People are going to be kind of moved into that one corner um that is covered, but so and it's.

H

Also good to hear that this was kind of a voluntary act on the applicant's part they.

H

You know they didn't come with a giant. You know trying to open everything way up and.

H

um And use it as much as possible, which is how the the rap shack was.

H

um You know rap shack, probably a much smaller use of the site, but I do recall going there several.

H

Times and- and they had assortment of picnic tables out, and they also had folks sitting on benches and.

H

Planters right up against the sidewalk as well, and they had music going on granted. It was not.

H

Very logic, I don't think you could hear from the the parking lot, but there was some some use there.

H

So there is a little bit of historic precedent. I guess of how this has been used outside.

H

um But I think um I think moving forward the way the applicant has it laid out. It's. uh It seems.

H

Appropriate for this site, it's not overbearing, like the actual awning, is somewhat overbearing.

H

um When you, when you look at it, is very big, but I think it's it's good how they they laid it out.

A

Thank you. Yes, jen. um I have a question. First. Can the planning board.

F

Set a condition for a maximum occupancy of something like a canopied area.

F

Is that possible- and my second question is: is it possible to limit hours of operation on a canopied.

F

Outdoor area like this I mean, is it something that the planning board has in there bailiwick.

L

I would say yes, yeah, a conditional use permit, gives the planning board.

A

A lot of discretion, okay, great then, I would suggest that this cup is acceptable only if.

F

Those two conditions are stipulated that there's a maximum of 31 people.

F

I think that's more than enough it you can see just by looking at the diagrams. It basically.

F

Is doubling the space available from their four walled hard covered space and that we.

F

Limit the hours of operation, I'd, say till seven o'clock at night. This is going to be seasonal.

F

um By definition, just because we live in zone five planting zone, I mean it's gonna there, no.

F

One's going to be out there, I doubt when there's like ice and snow, so I would particularly limit.

F

This outside dining area, I would suggest to 7 p.m at night. Those are the two conditions that I offer.

A

Is that a motion to amend the so you're still in the findings effect? Oh.

H

Okay, if yeah so just if we were going to do any of those yeah, I'm just looking at the.

H

Findings of factory- now I don't think yeah they wouldn't be applied at all through this. Okay.

A

Well, one of the findings could be that it's 31 seats. That's what I was wondering.

B

I think that's what it is, what that presented so yeah, it's so.

H

It's agreeable with the findings effect. That's, that is the application that was.

A

A request so the 31 is, is incorporated, but does that then set it as a maximum.

A

31 is not 32.. Yes, you have to make a request for what you propose under a cuc. You have to.

A

Make a request for what you want? Okay, yes, I guess I would be amenable to limiting the hours, but I.

B

Think, since some of the neighboring, two of the neighboring places um have 8 p.m, and I I think.

B

That would be more appropriate to give them until 8 pm at night, just my two cents on that.

A

That's the next step s. You got your point. Yes, anything else on the finding the fact.

A

All those in favor, aye, aye opposed finding is a factor adopted this channel. I think emotionally.

H

Vote to approve the conditional use permit, as presented with the following two well following.

H

One stipulation that the outdoor use um shall not extend beyond 8 pm just just to keep it.

H

Consistent with the other ones that have been in that neighborhood, you have a second second sorry.

B

I'm half asleep, I think it's been explained, but if you do want to explain any further yeah, I.

H

Think it's a great point and I think it brings it in line with the other, the other ones. We've.

H

Done in this area as well so any other discussion, foreign er, no just uh general comment. I think it's.

D

A fantastic adaptive, reuse and we've certainly hammered home. The point that parking is a concern.

D

um I think it's more of an initiative than uh accountability component for not only the city but.

D

The neighborhood over in that direction to really pay attention to how the traffic coming and local.

D

New businesses, as well as housing developments impact that so on top of the islington street.

D

Complete street plan- and it was very wise of the team to point that out in the master plan, this.

D

Is now going to be, you know on our shoulders in a lot of ways for the next iteration, of whatever the.

D

Parking study demand shows us, because I think that whatever we hear from this type of development.

D

Is going to be directly uh incorporated into this next iteration of plans? So that's really.

D

Exciting, I think that this is a unbelievable and really exciting opportunity for this corner.

D

um More than anything, the city of fort smith and the residents within it are uh quick to.

D

Root for small business when they come into town but they're, also very quick to scrutinize. It too.

D

So if there is in fact uh neighboring noise and disruption caused by this business, we can bet.

D

That we'll hear it- and uh you know that'll, be the front page of the headline like you can see it now.

D

And so uh with opening your new business whatever it may be, um I think that you'll find respecting.

D

The neighbors who have been here for several generations will pay dividends to you in the.

D

Long run and whether it's free parking whatever it may be, I think that you would be best served by.

D

Respecting a lot of those people um and I'm really excited for the overall project itself, so really.

D

Happy to see this okay, well, we have a motion in a second can I have a procedural question. I could.

R

No need to open the public hearing for it. Okay, procedural question.

R

Is the the motion itself? Excuse me is the motion itself with the stipulation on the hours.

R

Was the hours part of the the motion, the hours restrictions? Okay, I would just ask the board.

R

To consider reopening the public hearing just for the the applicant to be able to.

R

um Address the hours since we never got to discuss um that type of restriction, because.

R

I think we could make it probably easier on the board in that respect.

I

With a proposal.

A

It's an interesting procedural question. We have a motion and a he did say easier on the board. Yeah.

F

Yeah, but I mean they can operate their business. However, they want.

F

To operate their business, I think you know we vote on what we're voting on. I.

F

Mean I'm really against reopening the discussion for any in any direction.

A

If you want me to look it up in robert's rules, I will but it's going to take a.

A

Little while not take a break, so we have a motion in a second or I can look it up.

H

um I guess I'm somewhat in favor of keeping it the way that it is because there already.

H

Has been a precedent set on this section of road for other businesses, which is why.

A

The motion was made corey, you mean 8 pm right, yeah, okay, I just wanna.

A

I think it would take at least six members, so I'm not sure how many we have 15.

A

It's more than a simple majority. I know that to reopen the public hearing.

A

So if that's not an issue, we have a motion in the second, all those in favor aye opposed.

A

Like it or not, it's approved.

A

It's going to take a break 10 minute, break.

A

Foreign bring the meeting back to order. We are not going to go past 10 o'clock for sure I just.

A

Wanted to bring folks back and thank everybody for their time. That was an unexpectedly long session.

A

I'm not going to discuss the my updates. We do need to do a one-year extension on 668 middle street.

A

Just wanted to make a motion.

B

Make a motion to approve the extension.

A

Any discussion, all those in favor aye aye opposed extension granted. We have.

A

A workshop meeting scheduled next week we're not especially given how I'm feeling a little.

A

Tired I'd like to talk more about the master plan next week,.

B

Next week, isn't it? How do you think in my account? Well, we have a just a standing.

L

Meeting for thursday, we have the broom reserved right, but I don't.

B

Think there's been something booked by right. Well, the when I mentioned that.

A

Responding to the enthusiasm to talk about selling amendments and other things, everybody.

A

Said they wanted to have workshop meetings, and that would be when our next workshop meeting.

A

Would be next thursday next thursday, I won't be here, I will be here: [applause] [laughter],.

F

Sorry, I'm sure I had no idea, I mean we didn't have anything else yeah for future reference.

A

The thursday after our regular meeting, is a regular workshop meeting. So if we have, if we.

A

Have one and we we can change that, you know I'm a note on this stuff I'll meet all the time, but.

A

um So, with respect to the master plan, I know jane wanted to discuss some of that tonight.

A

So, with a short time period, I'm going to let you bring up to topics of the master plan. You've been.

A

Wanting to mentioned, I could say it in like two minutes, which is basically you can start timing. I.

F

I would like to make a motion. However, you do that for the chair to um specify an advisory committee.

F

For review and revision of the master plan for portsmouth, I think it's high time. I think that.

F

We should this I'd love to be on the committee. I know both andrew and I have said in previous.

F

Meetings that we would like to be on the committee- I'm not sorry just to talk to you andrew, but.

F

um um I I think we need to consider committee membership, and even that is like a huge topic.

F

To be discussed at a working meeting, but I'm anxious to set an action plan and a timeline.

F

And to discuss things like the scope of work, should we want to hire a consultant there's many.

F

Things that we could be doing prior to actually spending one dime of cip funding, and so I I'd like.

F

All of our ducks to be in an or in order, and the only way to get to that, I think, is by appointing.

F

An advisory committee and starting the volunteer work say more, but I won't you'd be over your time.

N

So that was that was the most that could it could be a motion. um I'm sorry, I'm gonna do something.

A

I don't normally do before it's seconded you. The board can do that if it's the boards desire.

A

I guess the question comes, to my mind is: do we want a subcommittee to work in the last supplantis.

A

Or the entire board try to work in the master plan together on the on the big topics. First, I.

A

Think it needs to get divided into groups, because there are there's going to be a transportation.

A

Element and land use element different elements within the master plan that may need subcommittees.

A

um So it's a timing question I don't know the answer to that. Frankly, I'm a little bit. I was up.

A

A little bit before you were this morning, so I'm a little tired too. um It may not be 100 of my game.

A

But whatever the board wants to do so, if I'll, second, just for a discussion, so my first question.

I

Is do we need to hire a consultant before we start this initiative board can talk about.

A

Master, that's what we're supposed to do! It's statutory we're supposed to talk about it.

I

Okay, so we can do this before, because we're scheduled to hire a consultant. We can't do.

I

Until there's money- okay, so that won't happen until after the budget right approved. Okay,.

K

Foreign, yes, my two cents from having been through the last process with the master plan is.

B

That I think, since it is a board function, that the entire board should be part of any.

B

Overall, review and directioning of any plan for moving it forward. If that makes sense,.

F

But then- and that's I I don't- I don't even have an opinion on that. Yet I have to think about it, but.

F

I I would like to suggest that when we do discuss this in a working group session or.

F

In the next planning board meeting that we actually set a schedule of meetings ahead.

F

Of time that isn't necessarily just bound by the availability of this room, because.

F

It I think sket I will have. I personally will have an impossible time to set aside the two.

F

Last weeks of every week to be in town, I won't be able to do that, and I don't know if anybody else.

F

Has those restrictions, but let me do this on that- I will work with staff to try to figure out how.

A

We can schedule some times with some options that people can weigh in on. So we can try to.

A

Figure that out going forward there's, you know, the master plan done right is quite a bit of work. So.

A

The other thing before I forget all, if you have a question of staff at this meeting, make the.

A

Question you know present it, but if you have a question outside this meeting of staff, please.

A

Run it through me, we said I said this once before, but it we've sort of gotten out of that routine.

A

So just going forward, if you have a question: don't don't email all the staff or anything like that.

A

Just run it through me be much appreciated by all, except by me. Perhaps but that's okay, small point.

A

Anything jim did. You want to just touch on anything before we.

I

I guess just had a question for just if I know we asked.

I

132 middle street for the parking study I think in january. I just didn't know.

I

Whether that had come in yet um it has not, I can follow up with them. Okay, great.

I

And then uh I also understand that the lonza expansion was approved by the pda in january.

I

And I was wondering if that was going to come before the planning board.

L

um I think there were minor amendments that they they went through. The pda.

L

And had um approved by their board, I think if they make um additional changes, they'll they're.

L

Planning to come back through this board, so the we've already seen it. So that's the originally.

B

I'm sorry the plan that's being built now is essentially the same. That was approved in 2019.

I

I can't confirm that for you now we're working on response to some of your questions.

L

um That will include that information. Okay, we'll include whether this board will see.

I

The current plan that was approved by the pda there were some minor amendments at the pda.

L

Approved under their jurisdiction all right again, I'm just yeah curious right how the process works.

I

Because right and that we're working on a memo that would outline the process but because.

I

We saw the we saw alonso's lunchroom in the summer, and uh we haven't seen the big one here.

B

Okay, speak to that a little bit because we did sort of see the general um of the whole.

B

Iron parcel a while back and approved what they had, but they were supposed to bring it back to.

B

Us when specific buildings were ready to be built on the property, but the general site plan of it. I.

B

Believe was approved some time ago. If I remember correctly it we don't approve it. We recommend it.

B

To the pda, so we're just a recommendation, we don't have any right to say no, they can't do what they.

B

Can't do, but I believe we, I remember, seeing a site plan for the parcel and overview you remember that.

B

Corey yeah and they had that the whole daylighting and the whole stream and everything right all the.

B

Actual yeah, the actual, not buildings but the actual site sort of work, and they were going to.

B

Do it in phases based off of customers coming in, so they were supposed to bring back as they were.

B

Had buildings ready to be built to do to bring those pieces back, so you won't see the whole.

B

Thing as a whole you'll see the pieces coming back added to the plan that was already approved, which.

B

I'm guessing those must have been minor changes or amendments to the big bigger plan that was already.

B

Looked at and approved by the pda, so is it your understanding is going to come before this board.

I

Or not, as as they're ready to build a building on the iron parcel, it will come the building, yep.

I

So I reviewed the I reviewed the the approval conditions back from the january 19th january 2019.

I

Approval it was pretty specific about what they needed to do and if the plans changed it needed.

I

To come back before us yeah any major changes, but I believe there are administrative approvals that.

B

Are allowed to change it's within a range. All right well be great to get clarification on that.

A

Thank you, everyone, I'm gonna, call during the meeting meetings adjourned. Thank you very much.