City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Planning Board, 5 May 2022

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From YouTube: 5.5.2022 Planning Board Work Session

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5.5.2022 Planning Board Work Session

A

Good evening, everybody welcome to courses planning board work session may 5th 2022.. We have several.

A

Members who weren't able to make it this evening, um mr simonis, would you sit for mr mohanna.

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And I think otherwise we have uh six of us, including mr simonas, there's no coding. I know.

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Just just in case just in case at least, we have more than a quorum, so um we're here to talk about.

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And listen, I guess we're here to listen and then let's get a discussion with staff about the.

A

Zoning amendments and the first we're going to receive and discuss the land.

A

Use committee existing conditions and strategy report. Yes, sorry, that's! Okay,.

B

So steph, if you could pull up the presentation.

B

So good evening, mr chair and planning board members, uh you have in your packet that.

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Was sent to you this weekend, it was sent to you prior to this as well a sort of summary.

B

Existing conditions and strategy report that went to city council and also was developed by the.

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Land use committee sent the city council for approval and review, and now it's before you we've.

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Part of it is uh spirited by some of the requests that this board asked for information, and so we.

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Tried to compile it, uh I wish that we were able to do a multi-year deep dive in a lot of the the data.

B

We spent quite a bit of time presenting what we have before you tonight and then, if you look in.

B

Your um existing conditions and strategy report there's a little bit of extra data and there's.

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A little bit a couple of extra tables that might be of interest to you, but I'll, try and summarize.

B

That in this presentation and I'd like to just go ahead and jump right into that, if that's okay.

A

Please so I thought I would take a look at where we are in population. This is something that is.

B

Of interest to me, as I lived here once before, and I was uh surprised to find that population.

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Has not uh risen um exponentially like I've seen in so many other places, but it has risen.

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And you can see that we have added since 2000 we've added 1422 residents, the source.

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Of this was the census government census.gov, quick facts, but I also pulled this data from.

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The office of strategic initiatives, uh the data files uh at the data center, so I uh corroborated.

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The information between the two, I think, actually the uh quick facts- are the source for even the.

B

uh Osi, so uh we of course you can see in um 2020 we had 20 784 residents and then in 2019 22.

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100 and 206 residents, uh we are averaging adding 71 residents per year. uh The um the hud places.

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Our persons per household count for the city of portsmouth at 2.07, which would account for 34 new.

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Households free per year- and I recognize that's a little jarring when we understand a lot of the.

B

uh Development that's occurring, and we I'll talk a little bit more about that as we move forward.

C

Question now or just.

A

How long would you estimate your presentation? uh My section is actually pretty quick. I.

B

Only have I think, five slides, so I'd be glad to answer a question if he has one.

C

Okay, I was just curious on the population um you're right. It didn't move a lot, but I was.

C

Wondering is it stable, like everyone is here, has been here or do you notice, like 500 people, leaving.

C

500 people or a thousand coming in and thousand leaving or I don't actually have migration data.

B

On that, but what I do we did try to dig a little deeper about the the nature of those.

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Residents uh we did ask the assessor to take a look at who has new hampshire listed as their.

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Primary mailing address and and then those that aren't in portsmouth as a primary mailing address.

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And I think that we calculated potentially as high as 10 percent of the population, has their primary.

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Mailing address in another state, um including uh maine and massachusetts, were pretty high out there.

B

So it does sort of corroborate the idea that we are becoming a maybe a second residence community.

B

I think anecdotally, that's been pointed out to me by many members of the community.

B

But certainly our first look at the data suggests that that is probably true. So that's that was.

B

This was interesting to me because it I sort of pounded my head when I saw these numbers. I said.

B

This community is growing very slowly in terms of adding residents, but we know that we're adding.

B

Development rather quickly and I'll talk a little bit about that. In addition, yes yeah one caveat to.

C

That, I think maybe jim, is the renter population that is generally nationally slower to change.

C

Their residency and their primary address. So, if you look at like a west end, yards development.

C

How many of those new 300 to 400 residents have switched their residency to that address? Yet I'm.

C

Sure a good handful of them have, but I'm sure an overwhelming majority have not yet just because.

C

It does take a while, and some people don't know if they're going to be here for more than a year. Okay,.

C

We should have better data, I think, when the 2020 census data comes out for our jurisdiction, okay,.

B

Sure, thank you continue. um This data comes from um the office of policy development and research.

B

It is the comprehensive housing affordability strategy data. It is the uh the I think, the.

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Bar that we're measured by uh it's important to note that this chas otherwise known as chas data.

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Is a five-year average it's put out by the census and it's a more it's a deeper dive into uh census.

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Data, it's a it's. A five-year average released on a three-year lag annually. So if you wrap your head.

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Around that, but it is the the data by which we're measured not only by uh the federal government but.

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Also, our cdbg funding and as well as the state, our own state, will be looking at this data. So.

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It's important to kind of get our heads around it. A household is said to be cost burden when it pays.

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More than 30 percent of its income toward housing expenses at a more extreme measure household is.

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Said to be severely cost burden when it pays 50 percent of its income toward housing, expenses.

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As noted in the charts above, twelve percent of the residents are paying fifty percent or more.

B

Of their income for housing costs, the most heavily cost burdened members of the community are renters.

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uh 36 percent of renters pay more than 30 percent of their total income for housing compared to 23.

B

Homeowners, while the number of cost burden homeowners has gone down over the past, eight.

B

Years, 22 to 14., so that's an unusual thing to see um the number of cost burn. Renters has remained.

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Steady at about 21, so a significant portion of our community is uh cost burden. Overall, the total for.

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Portsmouth the next slide, please, nearly one third of portsmouth residents are cost burdened. 12.

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Percent are severely cost burden and 17.7 percent are just cost burden, meaning they're paying.

B

um 30 percent or more for their housing related costs and that again the source is listed. There.

B

Stephanie, if you could continue um nick, did a deep dive into our current assessment data, which was no.

B

Small task, I think this took him hours, the coding is, can be rather complex and the sorting is is a.

B

Is a complex uh exercise as well, but this really gives us a great where we are right now in terms.

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Of our our housing typologies in our community, what we're comprised of uh single-family residents.

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And condos still comprise 60 of all housing stock in portsmouth multi-family units which which are.

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Defined as three units or more and mixed use comprise 30 percent of all housing enforcement.

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And since the adoption of accessory dwelling unit ordinance in 2017, the city has approved.

B

32 adus many have come before this board. Recently, we've had quite a few and we got more coming.

B

And forty percent of all edu's uh were either um attached um and uh 41 percent were garden. Cottages.

B

So that, and that seems consistent with what we've seen- we don't see a lot of detached.

B

But we're starting to um trends recently approved projects um from 2015 2022 28 of all approved.

B

Housing units were multi-family with greater than 100 units. 29 percent were multi-family with 5200.

B

Units and 28 percent were multi-family 25 to 50 units, and this is also in your strategy report.

B

Location of the housing units, 85 percent of all new approved housing, are located in the city's.

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Urban zoning districts, where infrastructure utilities exist, 40 percent of the new approved.

B

Housing units were located along commercial corridors in the gateway zoning districts.

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And the downtown accounted for just over 25 percent weston included 20 of the um approved.

B

New units and only three percent of all housing units were located in traditional neighborhoods.

B

And I will pass it to to uh councillor monroe to talk a little bit about the regulatory work.

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Plan of which is the subject of this work session this evening and talk a little bit about process.

D

uh Yes, so the land use committee has uh taken at the very beginning of your existing conditions.

D

Plan it, it gives you sort of a summary through the introduction and looking local planning.

D

Context, the housing policy, so we looked at the master plan. The um city council recently adopted.

D

Goals for the citywide and then the housing policy that was adopted originally back in 2016 and.

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Pulled from it all of them, pertinent parts that I think will direct all of the review of all the.

D

Zoning changes that we have so that then got us to work out a um beginning phase, one of things to.

D

Look at phase one, which you got a brief overview of that at our last city council meeting from our.

D

Nick cracknell, who gave us a great overview of that and then phase two.

D

Is going to be looking more at adus and looking at our assisted living facilities.

D

One of the things we want to do is we get to phase two and phase three is land use committee is going.

D

To start to organize some stakeholder meetings, so one of the things I certainly hope you guys will.

D

Give us feedback on as well is the stakeholder list, as far as who, we think should be part of.

D

These stakeholder meetings, where we get to get some feedback and ask some questions about what.

D

They think about specific zoning areas, so it would be really helpful um to get that feedback from.

D

From you all, as far as what you think we've listed here, obviously we didn't list any.

D

Stakeholders for the phase- one, that's really more, of a code cleanup but phase two and phase three.

D

We have begun to list put together some um very detailed lists of who the stakeholders would be.

D

uh We've also looked at the different housing in types that will be impacted. The objectives of each.

D

Code change we've also been requested to look at some other different types of code that haven't. We.

D

Haven't quite fit into the schedule yet, but that is the overview of taking the goals of the city.

D

Through our policy and turning it into um being able to look at for the longer term and on the.

D

Bigger picture all of the oh and our land use committee flowchart. So I don't know what the.

D

Slides are so okay, sorry, that's my! I was supposed to print those and I I left her. It's all right.

D

This this flow chart was based off of a request from a member of the public at one of our meetings.

D

As far as the flow of how all of the zoning should go and where sort of the city council initiated.

D

That the land use take a look at the policy and set up what we're going to look at from.

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Both the policy side and the zoning regulatory side, and then that is going to then land use.

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Talks about that and has public uh public input on it. It then goes back to the city council, where.

D

They refer to the planning board to review, as we are doing now and then to have public hearings.

D

And then that we refer, what we've been um you know put together is what we feel is the best.

D

Changes forward goes back to city council, where there's another public hearing uh at.

D

Second, reading they'll have first reading second reading public hearing and then third reading.

D

Before any changes actually get adopted, so that's just a quick flow chart showing how that all goes.

B

And this is nick, so this is before so there's four public hearings, while there's public input at land.

D

Use committee there's a public hearing at planning board and there's a public hearing at city council.

D

So technically, three so the readings, the public readings, the council, only one hearing and.

A

The other is just well there's two public hearings and one's just input that we get.

D

From the public at the beginning, that makes sense there will also be the stakeholder meetings, but.

A

Right, those are just public meetings right right and just one other thing will you circulate this.

A

Presentation as well absolutely- and I think we'll we'll be uploading it and we'll send a link out.

B

Because the yeah, I think that would be helpful. It would be helpful also from other members, of course,.

C

That aren't able to make it tonight. Does anyone have any questions about what I talked about.

D

Nick, I think you're welcome thanks beth rick and the rest of the uh the planning board was it.

E

Just the arrows down or side side, all right uh so again, like last week, nick cracknell, the principal.

E

Planner in the planning department, I am going to try tonight to get through this very quickly.

E

The first round understanding some of it's really tricky and there'll, be probably a lot of questions.

E

From some of you as to what we're actually trying to achieve and whether we've hit the mark.

E

Even since last week, we've made many little tweaks and revisions to the text in order.

E

To try and hit that mark so by all means the I think the purpose of the work session here.

E

Is to start the conversation with the planning board and the larger public and make sure we get.

E

These right before we have the public hearing at the city, council and ultimately, hopefully.

E

Adopt and address some of the zoning issues we're trying to get to with these phase. One amendments.

E

So the focus of the phase- one amendments are really uh on building height standards.

E

uh There are a couple of other little pieces here relating to civic properties and.

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Municipal properties, but it's really a focus on building height and providing consistency across.

E

All the character districts that we have in the downtown and the west end we've had.

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Disowning in place since 2013 in the downtown 2014 in the north end in 2015 in the west end.

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We have a couple of incorrect references in the code we'd like to to clean up as part of.

E

The phase one amendments and really try and get to clarifying the intentions of, I think.

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Not only the city council that adopted the character-based zoning, but the citizenry that has.

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Engaged uh the planning board, in particular when you're reviewing a lot of these large projects.

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That come through the character-based zoning in respect to how building height is even calculated.

E

So there's four main changes that that are in this uh phase. One set the first ones relate to.

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The building height map itself and three things that we're trying to achieve with the building.

E

Height map is to assign building heights to civic and municipal properties. Right now, municipal and.

E

Civic properties in in the character districts have no assigned building height to them, not a min.

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Not a max they're, just they're, just silent, uh it doesn't really matter for the municipal property.

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So much because they're exempt from zoning, but the civic properties, the museums, the churches, uh other.

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Non-Profits that are designated civic, they don't have a building height assigned to them uh and we.

E

Found in the past couple of years, a couple of the one museum and one church has come before us and.

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I'll I'll walk, you walk you through that example, uh and the warner house being one has tried to add.

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And they were successful, but they had to go to the zoning board of the board of adjustment to.

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Get relief to put an accessory structure where one used to be next to their building, so we we'd like.

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To assign some basic dimensional controls to civic and municipal properties, including building height.

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We certainly need to address any new streets ways or public places that have been added since we've.

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Last amended this, which I think 2015 is maybe 16. The last set of amendments relating to the map.

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Foundry place has been built as an example. I'll show you that.

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And then adjust the building height along in a very focused manner, along.

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High street and haven court- and I can talk to you about why that's in here.

E

So the second area that we're going to look at is how to interpret or allocate building height.

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Across lots that have multiple building heights, so a through lot or a corner lot that might have.

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Multiple building height standards applied to it. The code already uh provides, I think.

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Pretty good clarity on how you interpret that, but we've run into a couple of applicants that.

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Don't see it as clear and we'd like to maintain past practice, which I'll present tonight as to.

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How we've interpreted it in the last seven years and make sure if we want to continue doing that? We.

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Tighten up the language, so we don't have disputes in interpretation. I already talked about number.

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Three, which is again applying some dimensional and development standards to civic districts.

E

And then four really tackle the a couple of the issues in the building height measurement.

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Formula or structure in the in the ordinance, I think most people probably here- realize.

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That the code allows a applicant to backfill the first floor. You can essentially put a.

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Basement on the ground or a first floor story on the ground back, fill it make it a basement.

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And then start your measuring from that point forward. Good example of that is the the new.

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Building that chinburg did down at hannaford's, uh that was the former city site, the dpw. They put a.

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First floor garage on the existing grade back filled, built the podium and then put the four.

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Stories on top of that they didn't do anything they weren't allowed to do, but the code.

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We're seeking to tighten that up and look at finish grade differently than existing.

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Grade to calculate the height so you'd see some of these buildings be shorter.

E

Nick before you move on, I just want to draw attention to it was a question was raised about.

B

How do we know what the objective is for each of the amendments and the tables do really clearly.

B

Show these objectives for each set of amendments. We hope to continue that practice for every set of.

B

Amendments that we bring forward identifying what the intent is, what the general objective is and.

B

Then the specific area to be targeted, if that's helpful, I'm sorry right. So in going back to the.

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Map here in the first three pieces that we're trying to address on the map uh first, one again.

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Creating building height standards for civic municipal properties, the second adding any new.

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Streets or ways, and it's it's really focused on foundry place at this point being the new street.

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That's been added in the last five years uh and then adjust uh if we want to the building height.

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Standards on hanover, sorry on haven, court and high street. So if we just go with the first one, the the.

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Maps that were included in the draft amendment that I think was sent to you prior to tonight.

E

Showed the existing building height map and and the proposed and uh the focus obviously is on the.

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Proposed these are all the gaps that you currently see in the existing building height map, which is.

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Shown on the on the lower right, all the spaces, where you don't have a color uh line in front of.

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The property is because it's either municipal or civic behind it. So what we're proposing to do is.

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Basically, rubber sheet the lines from the abutting properties onto the municipal and civic properties.

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So again we have a a min and a max building height for any of those properties that.

E

Are looking for additions alterations or in the case of the warner house, uh a new outbuilding.

E

Being added to the property all right, so the the second uh component here was adding new streets.

E

And foundry place was completed after 2015 when the zoning was was adopted uh and last revised.

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For the north end, it's shown here with the brown line. I put the brown line there because right now.

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As I think most of you are aware, those properties were in consolidated ownership until recently and.

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Had all gone through the permitting process for to varying degrees.

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For any number of outcomes, none of which have yet occurred, but the properties related to foundry.

E

Place are all currently a brown line is already. uh I wish I could get up and have a microphone.

E

There isn't one is there, attach the screen. Yeah we'll touch the screen.

E

So we'll get close to it. So uh that's lot! Six right there from from rogers perfect, is that you.

E

Rick you want this yeah, maybe I'll do that, because I'm sure it'll drive a nuts. Yes, it will yeah.

A

He's bringing you the microphone all right, good might be easier all right. So that's lot 6, where.

E

The uh the mixed use building was approved and they have a foundation permit. I don't want to get.

E

Bogged down in the weeds here, but that was lot 6 for the rogers. This was the where the hotel was.

E

Going on lot three and then there's two more lots going out along deer street to maplewood.

E

All of those right now on on the existing map, which you can't see here, go back one slide.

E

Yeah, that's great so the existing map and, of course, I've got it overlapping.

E

uh Here, I'm not gonna be able to move that. Am I no? No okay, oops okay, but all those lots around.

E

The parking garage currently are already the brown line comes down. um Deer street turns the corner on.

E

Bridge and comes up hill all the way to here. So all these lots are already the brown signifies.

E

Four stories or fifty feet is the maximum building height. We're not changing that. With this amendment.

E

At least it's not being proposed to change it. If people wanna talk about changing it,.

E

Differently you're certainly welcome to, but I'm just presenting what's in front of you tonight,.

E

And what is being proposed is the the balance of uh foundry plays coming down along the.

E

Garage in the back of heinemann would be the same as the brown lines that circumvent the.

E

You know the perimeter of these properties today and then uh the hapny property down here that.

E

Really doesn't have open frontage outside of this new uh cul-de-sac on foundry place, because.

E

Rock street is blocked and doesn't come. You know it's not through traffic. uh He currently needs.

E

A building height, so what what we're proposing around that uh cul-de-sac is a lower standard, more.

E

Consistent with his building in the context of that neighborhood that abuts the rock street park.

E

So we can talk about that. What's your preference talk about it now or or go through all this and.

E

Then come back, I was just noticing that the stuff that was given to us doesn't include the.

A

Around the um which is fine because you're explaining it, but I think the other thing.

A

Just so everybody understands that basic planning criteria is you like to have building heights the.

A

Same across the street, you want to transition across the back lot line, not across the front so.

A

I think, like the solid brown line would actually be two brown lines on each side of the street.

A

That's right so you're thinking about this, no good point right. Anybody else have any questions.

E

About it at least, what's being contemplated here for that street, we have a question yeah.

D

Nick I know I had just more recently sent you a lot of the information that had been gathered and.

D

Put together by some prior neighborhood people, but I think on our forward-looking possible.

D

Changes, I think we need to look at hill street. I I've never truly understood why the brown goes.

D

Around the corner and down hill street when the rest of bridge street is all green, so I think.

D

We need to probably take a look at whether or not hill street is appropriate and whether or not the.

D

Rest of bridge street is appropriate because it's green across the street, it's green all.

D

The way down bridge, but it's not green, you know down the street that has some of you know smaller.

D

Buildings so yep, I I yeah, I hear the question and I can at least tell you when we did the brown down.

E

Here, which it's you're correct, it's brown down to hill stream across the street yeah. Well, there are.

E

Plenty of streets downtown with opposite heights on each side of the street, because the context is.

E

Different or it's a transition to a different zone. So what gets tricky about that particular.

E

Intersection of hill, obviously this is pretty intimate and and low in terms of building heights.

E

So I definitely think it's worth uh revisiting, especially if we're going to address the bottom.

E

Right with the taller uh more appropriate building height a long foundry place that we.

E

We take a look at whether that's the right way to do it with that brown. I think that's a legitimate.

E

Question you guys can barely see the brown on here, but there's the brown line going down there.

E

And the brown does turn the corner and it turns the corner because it's it it's a reasonable.

E

Expectation to expect the ferguson or or the uh the gray building there to be replaced at some.

E

Point in the next 20 30 years, it's a single-story building from the 1970s that sits here and it's.

E

Highly unlikely: that's going to be there 30 years from now, and it makes sense for that building.

E

To be commensurate with its its neighborhood, which is really here, uh you know and again.

E

There's a 10 foot difference between the green and the brown, but that's all it is it's not.

E

Like it's a two and a half story house and all of a sudden, you get a 60-foot building. It is.

E

A 10-foot difference between the green and the brown, so that that's where it gets tricky when.

E

You have transitions of this being redeveloped next to a much lower area being developed and.

E

That that gets into the whole through lot step down provision that we're going to get into next.

E

More shortly, yeah jim uh nick, uh how will this well, the brown line on boundary place affect.

C

The heinemann property, since it says green on the front and brown on the back, because I understand.

C

That heinemann property touches foundry place. Also, yes, so right now the the heinemann building.

E

Sits right here and it is, as you say, green, so it's allowed to be three stories or 40 feet.

E

If, if this was adopted on the lower side, which is a 10 foot, increase right to 50 feet- and this is, I.

E

Think it's outside the uh the overlay district. But I'd have to go back and look at that for the bonus.

E

But the brown would definitely be from up to 50 instead of the 40.. But if this building was.

E

Redeveloped and somebody wanted to put another story on top of this- they wouldn't be able to do.

E

Any extra building in this first 50 feet along.

E

Hanover street, so there, if you're, this, would be one of those through lots right with two.

E

uh Building heights: a brown on the back and a green on the front, what it what it says is on.

E

Up to 50 feet from the lower standard, which is here so you'd, be back behind these cars. That's.

E

Where your building could pop up and take advantage of the 50 feet, but it wouldn't be.

E

Anywhere near hanover street, so again it's trying to work the transition there's already a 10 foot.

E

Or more gray change down on foundry to get up to even the heinemann building the first floor.

E

So I'm not sure they'd even get an extra story if that's brown, unless it's in the overlay district.

E

Which they'd already be in we're, not changing that uh if they're in the overlay district now.

E

And I can look it up before I leave. They would already be able to get an extra story with the.

E

Community space or the workforce housing so I'll look that up, but I I don't think it's problematic.

E

uh At least to my eyes, because of the the step back requirements from hanover street.

E

You wouldn't be able to bring that brown line up to hanover to start crowding the the buildings.

E

uh On that street, uh with peter hapney's place next to the park, uh his building's probably.

E

Already in the mid 30s, this is a 40 foot. It's like bridge street three stories. 40 feet seemed.

E

Like an appropriate scale for that building and we do have the rock street garage, I felt like sorry.

E

The rock street park is a really useful transition for the heinemann building. Should it get taller.

E

To provide a buffer to the resident lower scale, residential neighborhood on the other side,.

E

That's that's the thought anyway. Okay hyman is in the overlay.

A

Say it again: heinemann, okay, yeah, so right now they can already do a 40-foot, sorry, 50-foot building.

E

If they provide the community space thanks rick, so this would allow 60 feet for that back portion.

E

If they did it and provided the community space and that 60 feet would be measured from foundry.

C

Place the street level there we'll talk about how it gets measured. You measure around the perimeter.

E

Of the building, so you have to take you get you get demerit points for being on uh foundry and you.

E

Get credit for being on the high you've got to go around the building. Every five feet: six feet off.

E

The building add up all your data points divide by the number of data points, create your grade plane.

E

Measure up to the roof and calculate your average height of the building, so there would be portions.

E

For example, for heinemann, if they, if they were allowed to go to 60 feet in the code, is the.

E

Maximum height- and it was let's say uh five stories: they could have sections on foundry.

E

Place that might be in the high 60s and they'd have sections on hanover. That would probably be.

E

In the low 50s- and it would average out again if they were it's going to average, that you get it.

E

Okay, are we good just for now we can come back.

E

Okay, I I talked a little bit about this. That's the warner house there that came in for the.

E

Building this is this is not a big deal, but it was a little embarrassing that they would they.

E

Came in to put a building there and we didn't have dimensional standards to tell them. You know.

E

How close they needed to be or far away from the street and how tall the building could be.

E

So they went to the boa. They got the relief for what they wanted, because we we didn't have the.

E

The well-defined dimensional standards, so this amendment is uh well sorry. This one here is.

E

Adding in building heights to all those municipal and civic properties, so I jumped ahead to the.

E

Dimensional, but this is putting building heights on all these properties uh that are consistent and.

E

Many of them are going to be non-conforming. The churches certainly are well beyond.

E

uh These colors, but there's they're, landmark buildings they're supposed to be we're. Certainly.

E

Not trying to create 80 90 foot height districts for those buildings, but it would allow them for.

E

Example, st john's did work in a connector building between the function hall and the church, and we.

E

Didn't have any building height standards to do that, it wasn't a problem because what they were.

E

Doing was appropriate and the we had the backstop and we usually do of the historic commission.

E

uh Being able to manage even what the code says, you can do and uh finding the right fit.

E

Any questions on sort of and and the map will be a lot easier to read. Without all these gaps.

E

For a pump station on deer street and and market, it's a little missing corner. The idea is that.

E

Every street down here or public place alleyway is going to have a building height on it, regardless.

E

Of what the ownership is of the land behind it or fronting on it, we can we yeah go ahead. Jim just.

C

To clarify a civic property is defined as one that doesn't pay taxes. No, I don't think that I.

E

Think you'll you'll probably find that's true, but that's not how they're defined they're defined.

E

In the code- and maybe rick can uh pull it out there, they're non-profits, they're museums,.

E

So I don't know that they have to be non-profit and tax exempt, but they probably are.

E

Okay, um all right, I thought, was a simple answer. So if it's not I'll, look at it, yeah.

E

Well, I'll find it for you. When I get free up my hands, it's in there, the definition of civic.

E

um Okay: let's talk about high street in haven court because I'm sure there's interest in this. It.

E

It's kind of an oddity in the package as to it's a substantive change to the the building height.

E

Standards on the map and uh it's clearly related to recent conversations about the appropriateness.

E

Of the building heights on high street in haven court- and you can see just as a starting point.

E

The existing heights- you can see it fairly well here the orange is a three-story short for fourth.

E

Story building, uh if you want to know what short forth is it's just a compressed fourth floor, but.

E

It's essentially a three-story district with a short fourth or 45 feet, whichever is higher so.

E

You can't go above 45 feet. You can't go above a three-story building with a short fourth floor.

E

uh You think of the starbucks building right across the road from the corner. That's got.

E

A short fourth floor: it's a little compressed, it's the federal style, that's commonly found in.

E

1800, where the perhaps the servant's quarters were in the attic and the windows are shorter in the.

E

Floor, the floor ceiling heights are lower. It can't be more than 80 percent of the height of the floor.

E

Below it, that short, fourth, so right now along congress street and almost all of high street.

E

This gets into sort of the question earlier. Somebody beth was asking about bridge street.

E

You know there's an example where the heights are different on both sides, and sometimes it makes.

E

Sense sometimes it doesn't what's important to me at the end of the day, and I think it should be to.

E

All of us well, what is the difference between the green and the orange and the difference between.

E

The green and the orange is pretty subtle. It's five feet, so you're not jumping up a full story.

E

You do get the short fourth, but you know a three and a half story. Building in a mansard is going to.

E

Work even in the green district, provided it's less than 40 feet. So the folks that are looking at that.

E

Property right now and I think they've even maybe been in front of the planning board. I I'm not sure.

E

Yeah, um you know they. They approached us early on about interpreting the code and interpreting how.

E

A lot merger is going to function because this becomes a corner lot with three potential.

E

Street frontages, it's got congress street down here, it's got high street and it's got haven. Court.

E

And we we have argued uh repeatedly that haven court is a public place. It may not be uh you.

E

Know a full-on street like high street, but it it is a right-of-way. The city owns the fee of.

E

The lower section down here- and we believe we have a right-of-way through here, so it's a pedestrian.

E

Right away, similar to commercial alley, it does have a service component, but potentially that lot.

E

That's been merged and I think the planning board may have signed the merger. I don't so.

E

You're well aware of this, the building on the corner was merged, with the building in the middle.

E

Which included the parking lot they used to have a building on it quite a long time ago.

E

I don't think anyone in the room had seen that building it's been gone since I think the 40s.

E

So the question we were asked is gee: how does building height work? How would you allocate.

E

The building height when we have an orange line on the front and this side all the way down to.

E

uh Rudy's, we have an orange line and then we have this green thing and it's five feet shorter. It's.

E

Just five feet shorter, but it's different and what we're trying to do is build a building here. That's.

E

Commensurate with the orange line and you've got a green line here. So another part of these.

E

Amendments that uh I'm hoping we can support is to clarify the code that you can't drag.

E

A higher building height from as far away as where the address is, which is congress.

E

Street and pull it all the way to haven court, which is one of the arguments being made by the.

E

Applicant, in this case, in front of the board of adjustment, we don't support it. That's why it's.

E

In front of the board of adjustment, because for seven and a half years that we've been doing this.

E

We believe, as I presented earlier in this particular case, you can take this building.

E

Height and push it into the so the green box here, but only back in this corner. So there's a 50 foot.

E

Step back from haven court in a 50 foot step back from high street.

E

So, there's really not much of a bleed over of the orange into the back of the site.

E

Because of that 50-foot step back but they've taken a different route in interpreting that.

E

What we're proposing in a subsequent amendment in this package is to tighten the language, so we.

E

Don't get into these conversations in the future and we can continue to do what we intended to do.

E

Which is protect the street edge from a tall, a tall line moving into a short line, uh because.

E

Of a sleight of hand with the with the language or an interpretation, um so the reason this is in here.

E

uh For changing the actual map is because it makes sense, at least to us, and me in particular that.

E

Regardless of what I think about the building design that's being proposed and and I'm.

E

Probably not the biggest fan I'll just say it of the style of the building, but that's an hdc.

E

Problem to solve um to me it's completely appropriate here when we did this.

E

Building height map, look we're not going to get everything perfect. We've made changes to this.

E

Repeatedly from 2013 14 15, because this was the first phase, the downtown. So when we did the north.

E

End, we came back over and discovered. You know several things, weren't right, we're back again.

E

I I do not see why, with the buildings that are, in this context, being already three to four stories.

E

In height uh 40 to 45 feet in height the garage even more that it that it makes sense to dig in.

E

And say no, this five feet sacrosanct. That really needs to be green when everything around it is.

E

Essentially, orange and on the ground uh again, building design aside, that's not what this is not.

E

Going to unlock uh the ability to go and put that building, whether you like it or not, on this site,.

E

All it's going to do is avoid uh needing to argue and and and duke it out at the board of adjustment.

E

As to whether that five feet should be added or not so personally, I've got an image in here that.

E

I encourage you to go down there as well and take a look I mean I did a lot of the analysis back in.

E

2013 in the data collection to come up with these heights that parking lot was sitting there. We knew.

E

At some point it would get developed. We put the green line on there. uh You know without the level.

E

Of of thought, you'd like if you're looking at every street, uh you know with your sleeves rolled.

E

Up we, we did 80 acres and 452 properties in that first zoning amendment, so it was a heavy lift and.

E

Building height is only one of the 34 dimensional controls that goes with each property.

E

So I personally don't think when you look at when you look down high street and you look at that.

E

Haven court section there, where the trucks parked that a five foot increase is going to be a pro.

E

A problem here at all, I think it's appropriate. uh I think, there's plenty of work for the htc to.

E

Do on the building design, but that again is not part of this amendment this. This does not allow.

E

That to happen, it just avoids building height being part of it and hey. Look if.

E

One thing you're going to see in a subsequent slide here: we've inserted language in this.

E

Set of amendments to make it very explicit to the marketplace that the hdc has the ability to allow.

E

And require a lower building than the maximum building height. That's allowed on that map. So.

E

If, for example, I'll take it just a sec peter, if, for example, somebody came in here with a 45 foot,.

E

Building and the hdc thought it was too big for that context, based on the surrounding context,.

E

They have jurisdiction to require that building to be lower. Remember the building height map is.

E

Usually two stories to something so there's a range between two and the top and obviously the.

E

Development community likes to come in at the very top, but the there's no obligation for the hdc.

E

In the historic district to allow a building to be only at the top and there's been several buildings.

E

That have been lowered uh not exponentially, but they've been lowered uh or penthouses have been.

E

Made pitched roofs have been made instead of flat roofs, which has had a profound impact on how that.

E

Perceived height works to the pedestrian peter, so the green on that the metro or the ruiz lot. There.

C

Yes, what's: how is that assigned or what historically, how did that become that versus.

C

The orange or I mean, is it because that's what the building was there before? No that's a great.

E

Question- and I wish I I just I don't unders yeah, you know I get yeah. I can tell you because.

E

I think I put it there, uh you know, and I think it it. It was me looking at it initially saying.

E

Be being conservative and being careful, and you know, I've always felt.

E

I've always felt less is more when you're taking a lot on, and you can't roll up your sleeves to.

E

Your shoulders to make sure you've covered every contingency. I think it was a very careful approach.

E

To that intersection and that lot, because it was obvious to me and many others, it wasn't going to.

E

Remain like that in this development climate, it was going to be developed, and you know if this.

E

Was going to change, 10 feet or 15 feet? I think I think it would be a you know. A worthwhile.

E

Endeavor to to beat it but we're talking five feet and I think the newberry building.

C

Next to the lobby: yes, going up flat street or point up uh haven court there. So it's a.

E

Three-Story building here, which is it's under 40 feet: it's basically that building is commensurate.

E

With a 40-foot building down on the street with three stories and it's two stories on the back.

E

Because of the great change coming up haven court, I mean gilly's right here is basically a.

E

Eight to nine foot building in a 40-foot district right next to a 65 to 70 foot building.

E

So this is imperfect, uh but it's better than what it used to be, which was 60 feet.

E

Everywhere everything was 60 feet in 2013 and it was 60 feet in 1950 all the way through.

E

Before 1950, it was a 100 feet in 10 stories, but that's because nobody wanted to invest here so.

E

They were trying to trying to induce development, but um the 60 feet. The 60 feet was changed in the.

E

Whole downtown in 1980 when the sheridan lot was going to be developed with a 10 story, building.

E

People uh panicked and went with the 60 and the 60 was everywhere except the north end, which was 50.

E

The cba versus the cbb, so when I got here everything you know, sheep street was 60. the.

E

End of state street was 16 and what was happening from 100 market street. All the way to 2013 is.

E

Under market streets really the first building that was 59.95 feet and everybody did the.

E

Same thing that got a piece of property in downtown and were 12 buildings in before we.

E

Started making adjustments at the council and then did the the council put the money up to do.

E

The character-based zoning in the data collection so yeah, I would argue- we've extinguished a third.

E

Of the development rights in 2013 of the property owners downtown, so it was a pretty big take on.

E

What was there at 60 feet everywhere to drop to these? You know the the green. It goes from 60 to 40.

E

The the blue steps down again and we've got uh some 30-foot districts, so we got another.

A

Question nick yeah, sorry! um Well, when you pointed out like get to the microphones when you point it.

C

Out like that, when it went from 100 to 60 to 50 to 40 the five feet, we're talking about doesn't seem.

C

All too dramatic, but my two-prong question is: um does the form and function of the short fourth.

C

Floor in this district have any influence on the height that you will be able to get.

E

No uh because building height is either the number of stories or the maximum.

E

Height and whichever you hit you stop, if so, if you have a mcintyre building with 15 16 foot floors,.

E

You're only going to get a couple before you hit the ceiling on the number of feet, so it's both.

E

Number of stories or feet when you hit the ceiling on either one of them. You got to stop the reason.

C

For the question was because you had mentioned that the hdc could moderate that and just bring.

C

It down lower so if that were the case, and they would somewhat compromise, quote unquote to.

C

Arrive at a nicer roof line or a mansard roof, etc. Although it may be a little bit higher than that.

C

Maximum height, if we were to go with the shorter height uh they are, I don't know if I got the.

E

Last part of what you said, the htc obviously can't make anything taller than the maximum.

E

Building height, so there's no wiggle room there. If this goes to 45 in this particular we're really.

E

Talking that parking lot right, the hdc can can approve something 45 42 38, whatever they find.

E

The right fit is and whether it has a short fourth or I, I don't believe, the building they're actually.

E

Presenting now has a short four-story, I think it's a mansard, but it's so odd. Looking it's uh it's.

E

Tough to figure out what it is, at least without rolling up your sleeves again pretty high. So.

E

But but the building I do know that they're proposing is about 43 and and change 44 feet in.

E

Height, so it exceeds the green uh line of 40.. Okay, but again this isn't just this, isn't I don't want.

E

People to think this is being done to make that project happen. It's done to make a project happen.

E

The zoning is to make a project happen. This isn't a parking lot forever. It's it's intended to be.

E

uh Either purchased by the city and a park made out of it or or the private property owner is.

E

Going to develop it at some point like most of these parking lots, so the the code is telling.

E

It's our business plan as to what we want to see happen in the future on this property.

E

And I think it's in our interest to have a little more flexibility, especially knowing it's in the.

E

Historic district and they are under no obligation to go 44 and a half feet if it's not a good fit.

E

Based on their analysis of what's around it and what's before them yeah, so the other half of my.

C

Statement was going to be, I think I take comfort in the fact that if it were to go higher, the other.

C

Dimensional constraints and requirements of the zoning would push towards a better experience with.

C

That building at the street level, which I think is how most people will interact with it. So if.

C

Haven court becomes a nice pedestrian thruway like commercial alley, as we've discussed here.

C

Then I would like to see that building set back a little bit further, so that people walking out.

C

Of the garage or out of any other building in that area are not greeted with a staunch wall at their.

C

Face so if it were to be set back but a little bit higher, I don't think that would be the you.

C

Know end of the world. I think that that would be a healthy way to create a good experience for that.

C

Corner so I mean that I don't disagree, but that entire conversation is an hdc conversation. I guess.

C

It ties in because if you were to go with the higher um floor height, then they have more control.

E

Not necessarily all we're doing, I just want everybody to be.

E

Including myself, clear on the question and the in the answer, all we're talking about doing here is.

E

Only changing the maximum height five feet higher, so the boundaries sorry sending the boundaries yep.

E

Setting the boundaries exactly so if the hdc was to decide, as you uh suggested, might be a good idea.

E

If the building was 45 feet, they'll they'll step it back a foot or two, so the sidewalk's wider.

E

That's something that has to be negotiated between the htc. The code is not going to require them to.

E

Step the building back that that whole step back conversation was buildings that have multiple.

E

Building heights and how you bring a taller one to a short street with a shorter building height.

E

If that turns into orange around that corner, then the whole thing is orange. uh All the buildings are.

E

Already conforming to the orange that are that are on congress street in the first half of of.

E

High street, so really it's it's again five feet in there and I I'm going to say it 16 times, because.

E

It's important this will not enable that building design as contemplated currently to be approved.

E

Just because this amendment goes forward, htc is where you want to participate.

E

And uh monitor how they review it and shape that project. So, nick that the change to go to orange or.

A

Brown, whatever we're calling it changing from green, I wouldn't go so far as to.

A

Call it a correction, but it's it is making it consistent with. What's across the street like.

A

What I mentioned earlier, I'm calling it a minor adjustment so um from the other.

A

Changes we've got them on two different maps, so it's a little hard to go back and forth.

A

The proposed changes: where are you doing it, so that it's not consistent across the street.

A

Do you remember if that's can you ask me that again, are you proposing any changes.

A

Additions to the map, where we have a disparity across the street, I think you're, I think you're.

A

Consistent in every case right, uh no, what I can tell you is there are there are some corner lots.

E

And through lots like congress street today that exist that have multiple building heights.

E

That I'm not trying to address here, I don't we. I don't think we that's a different problem. Well, no.

A

Simpler question: where are you filling in the colors, the missing colors? Yes, those match what.

A

Was on the other side of the street or beside it or beside it? Yes, yes, it's rubber sheeted, so in so.

A

This is actually a standout. Yes, this hadn't any color on it. Yes, you probably would have picked.

A

Brown orange you mean or orange yes, brown being taller, okay, yeah orange, it's so thin.

A

It's hard to yeah on the okay, so yeah. I think you could go green or orange here and it's not.

E

It's kind of irrelevant, what's relevant, is the building that they put into that space.

E

And whether it fits I agree, that's a separate question about htc.

E

You know exactly and one quick thing just with what andrew brought up that stepping.

A

Function that could be built into the ordinance. It's not, it could be yeah. That's a separate.

A

Conversation, so we can talk about that later and they used to have that here before the 1950s. You.

E

Could go 12 stories if you step the building in and it sort of knew you probably peeled it out.

C

Of new york city and the 30s, but what if it's one one or the other you could you could do.

C

The step in and have a little more height or you don't do the stepping, but you have to be lower. I.

C

Mean is that that's common commonly it's done. I mean we kind of do that with the penthouse.

E

Exemption today that if it's 15 feet in you get another story and you get an extra two feet in.

E

Height, you know it's not called a story, it's a penthouse, so most we're trying to encourage in the.

E

Code uh pitched roofs instead of flat roofs, so we get the mansard, we get the pitched roof. We get the.

E

Pop over so the building looks uh shorter than it is when you're inside there'll be five floors and.

E

Popovers but it reads like a four story: building when you're on the sidewalk, so you know that's.

E

We already have those sort of step backs they're, not quite what you know. The penthouse is.

E

Certainly, what you're talking about sorry for the diversion so go ahead? Yeah, do you have a question.

A

Yeah, just while we had this slide up, I have a question about the ownership of haven court. Yes,.

C

The tax maps clearly show it, as public property clearly showed us portsmouth's property, but as.

C

You probably know there's a jersey barrier and a fence right here and an unfriendly sign saying.

C

No trespassing private property, who is who is contending that it's not city property, do you know.

C

Well, there was some suggestion from these folks here that, because it was based on a.

E

A map they believe a plan, that's valid, it's recorded, it's a survey and the survey plan.

E

That they presented to us showed what we do to be true, which is from the back of the.

E

Newbury building down to gillies, we actually do own the fee of that that plan that they showed us.

E

Showed us that we own the fee from gillies up to the jersey barriers. Those jersey barriers are on.

E

City property, both top and bottom. But when you get to the top ones where the dumpster is and.

E

That big truck was parked that is not owned by the city in fee. We have a right-of-way.

E

Across that section and the owner of that parking lot owns the fee of that section.

C

But we believe it's a public way. We believe it's a public place, so we believe the green.

E

Line is enforceable and we believe the orange line should have become it will be enforceable. So this.

E

Lot will be on three streets all right, so there's two issues with haven way: there's an easement or a.

C

Right-Of-Way so to speak on private property and then there's fee simple on another section.

C

Correct that the city owns outright correct: okay, yep, the lower the ramp section, we own.

E

The flat section on top is apparently owned by this property owner, and we apparently have a right.

E

Of way to cross it and re-cross, so we consider it a public way. So these lines, in our opinion.

E

uh Apply so the city at any moment could remove those jersey barriers if it chose to yeah. I think.

E

I'm not sure, but I think we put them there they've been there a long time.

C

All right now I get it yeah, so it's a great time to go and.

E

Fix it uh and make it like commercial alley, which would be great gates to go to pierce.

E

Island, too, which they used to have gates to get up to purse island right, there's bad stuff going.

D

Nick so what happens to the newbury building in that green line? If, if you decide to make the other.

C

Lot orange yeah! So if the, if the orange right now, I think I've showed the orange coming down to the.

E

To the jersey barriers here uh we can certainly put it wherever I don't think you're going to see.

E

Anything happen here on the newbury building. But if the orange line comes to here right, where the.

E

Jersey, berries are at the top they're only going to be able to build back here on top of that roof.

E

Up to the orange maximum height to 45 feet, which is the same as list a lot this lot, and this lot.

E

So I think it's highly doubtful. They would do that because this building right here, if you don't.

E

Change, the green, it's really at the max already, so you can't put a story on this whole building.

E

Without a variance, uh even with this amendment, you so you'd be putting something on the back and.

E

I can't believe, that's financially feasible, even though a lot of things are now that didn't used to.

E

Be yeah! So if I'm not going to sit here and say, we've figured out every contingency and.

E

And there won't be a problem over the next 30 years. uh We hope to avoid them.

E

Shall I continue all right, so you saw that context all right there's. This is really a scribner error.

E

But we decided, since we didn't notice it uh too many times over the last seven years. uh We better.

E

We better include it that seven, you see there's supposed to be a six. There is no seven oops.

E

So and that's shown on the building height map, where the arrow is there's a reference to.

E

5A47 and there isn't such a thing, so uh that's all that is um and there it is in the uh the actual.

E

Print the six turns in the seven turns into a six which they were all that easy: okay, the corner and.

E

Through lots, we spent a lot of time on this, but this is dealing with things like congress street.

E

And I've got an example in here: that's not congress street, so you hopefully will all get it.

E

This is the language here that was giving us grief on congress street uh in in having a different.

E

Interpretation than us as to how ins in particular item c relates to dragging the orange line back.

E

Into the green on congress street and they had a different interpretation as to what it meant.

E

uh Than us- and we believed a front lot line- is on any of those streets. So there's a there's a.

E

A front on high a front on haven and a front on they're all fronts, but because the word um you've.

E

Got the you've got the language of the existing code in that document that was handed out. It.

E

Allowed the the uh the attorney representing the applicant to suggest well, it's either or and since.

E

We don't have a street uh a front lot line, which you're going to see is is a revised definition.

E

In here a front lot line defines the uh itself is where the address of the property comes from, and.

E

This merged lot now has an address of one congress street one congress street is on an orange line, so.

E

If you read this as an either or and the front lot line is defined as congress street, then.

E

You bring the orange line all the way to haven court, which we disagree with. That's why they're.

E

In front of the boa on that particular item, so what we've decided to do here is, if there's any.

E

Ambiguity which, obviously there must be some or they wouldn't have filed an administrative appeal.

E

Let's fix it and let's make sure we maintain the position we've taken for seven years.

E

Which is you can't take the congress street orange line and bring it to haven court? You can.

E

Only bring it as long as it's 50 feet back from high street and 50 feet back from haven. You can.

E

Bring it back into that little corner, but that's not useful to them. uh Does that is that semi, clear.

E

It's a little complicated, uh so this is the language that um that we're amending, and you know.

E

These lots that have multiple building heights, sometimes on them, they can be corner lots, which is.

E

Congress, they can be a through lot, which would be the buildings that are on chief and state street.

E

They go right through and chief is obviously a lower building height than state street. So.

E

This whole section here of abc abcd. It applies to lots that have multiple building height standards.

E

On them either because they're on the waterfront, like the north mill pond or they're a through lot.

E

Like the ones on state street or they're, a corner lot like the ones on um haven, court and congress.

E

So we're we're cleaning up the the language here to be consistent between corner lots through lots.

E

And waterfront lots: that's the purpose now. This definition is in the back uh for a front lot line.

E

And this is what the attorney was using to build the case that congress street should be.

E

Utilized to get the building height extended all the way to haven court. It refers to the strike.

E

The strikeout portion here I don't know why this turned into a dot, but the front lot line.

E

um That's we're proposing that be replaced with the principal front yard, which is already defined.

E

In the code and that's what the address defines is the main front yard, the principal front yard.

E

Not the only front yard, which is the way this person's uh suddenly interpreted. It is that the.

E

Address gives you the front yard and therefore you can pull that height over to haven, court.

E

So we hope that this addresses- and you know it's not two front lot lines- could be multiple and we.

E

Just demonstrated on congress street, there would be three not two with haven court being added.

E

Go ahead, peter did you have a question so what happens? This is being discussed to be changed in.

C

There in front of the boa they're in a they're in a holding pattern to see what happens here, they're.

E

Still they have to keep their application going because they want to protect their ability to if.

E

All this tanks- and we decide not to do it- they're still going to need to pursue their application.

E

But they've continued uh so this this will affect their yeah and this does not give them what they.

E

Want this, this gives us what we want. The the piece that they will avoid is that five feet from the 40.

E

To the 45, which again, um I think, makes sense for us to do and and then work on the building design.

E

Secondarily, so um again, this is, I think, the same thing you just saw in the last slide. Here's here's.

E

Another example up on if you could just hold one second, I think there has been some changes between.

B

What was presented in their packet and then this captures the change. Yes, and I only draw attention.

B

To that, because I think we are trying to also uh present to the planning board tonight, some of the.

B

We conferred with legal and we noodled through and if something wasn't clear, this particular section.

B

I felt like it wasn't entirely clear and nick and I sat down and worked on it a little bit more with.

B

Legal, so I want to be able to capture. I know you have that in the handouts as well, but to capture.

B

The changes that staff has recommended there's no, I would say, substantive changes. It's still what's.

B

In your packet, it's just more clarifying changes and there's a copy that steph is going to get.

E

That, in case, you don't have it of all the changes that are that are shown here, that we've been.

E

Working on in the last week, because yeah beverly's right we've done continuous wordsmithing, it's been.

C

Been ongoing, yeah yeah yeah, it's probably not done okay. So if we just pop up to uh the hill street.

E

Neighborhood again what we talked about earlier, so this is lot six over here wow. What is going.

E

On hold hold it down yeah and the top. You should be able to toggle through the different types. Well.

E

Well, I'll, stick with that, I guess this is lot six again. The parking garage is over here.

E

Boundary place is there: this is the existing brown line. That beth was talking about. That goes all the.

E

Way down to to bridge street, so I just tried to use this is one property with three structures.

E

On it, they're all two families there's six units here. This came before the planning board a couple.

E

Of years ago, I think it did either the maybe it was the board of adjustment and it did not.

E

Obtain its zoning relief, so it never made it to the planning board. But what the property owner? Who.

E

Owns these buildings tried to do uh was a taller building than would be allowed in this green area.

E

Because of that 50-foot step down, I mean there's no real. That's the only space here on this lot.

E

If these were all torn down- and that was a vacant lot, this is the only uh space on that lot. That.

E

Could be four stories or 50 feet because of the brown line? This is the 50 foot step down out to.

E

The green they have to point this thing at the ceiling to get it. Maybe it's somewhere else.

E

So that's a 50-foot step back from hanover and from autumn street, so this building would have.

E

To be three stories or 40 feet in here, and this is where it could bump up, because again it's at least.

E

50 feet away from the green line that particular project did not have a step down like that. It was.

E

A uniform height, it was more like the. It was three and a half stories and probably 45 feet.

E

And it had a garage coming in from here. It was not approved by the board of adjustment.

E

But the purpose of showing you this is how that allocation works again, like congress street on a.

E

Lot that has multiple building heights on it, and this one has two building heights. It has three.

E

Front yards autumn, hanover and hill, but that's that's how the building height has worked for the.

E

Last, seven years: that's how we've interpreted it for better or worse, I mean it's, it's not a great.

E

Outcome, thankfully, we don't have people building buildings like that, um but that at least protects.

E

The people on the neighborhood on hanover and autumn from having the the brown uh higher.

E

Height bleed into their neighborhood across the street. So it's it's! It's a disincentive.

E

For a developer, they'd have to go to the board of adjustments uh to get relief to do that. All right.

E

um I don't know where the definition went, but it was on there it's in the handout. Oh there, it is.

E

So we don't have a definition today for public place. It's referred to in the front lot line and.

E

This this is really helpful when you're dealing with things like haven, court or commercial alley.

E

Because they're not they're, not necessarily public streets, they're, not for vehicular traffic.

E

But they are public ways and they're, either alleyways or some form of community space.

E

The legal department recommended we strike the word deeded if they have public access, we don't.

E

Want to be too restrictive and say it has to be deeded most of the time it's going to be deeded.

E

But sometimes I guess it's informal and we want to deal with that on a case-by-case basis. But.

E

We we've got a lot of new alleyways that are being.

E

Both proposed and constructed that this would affect.

E

All right, this goes back to the htc, uh the disclaimer, um we're proposing to insert.

E

The the underlined text into this uh introductory paragraph to the building height standards and it.

E

Simply refers you as a reader when you're in the historic district to that section.

E

635.70, which is the review criteria, to make it clear to the applicant, especially and also the.

E

Htc members that come and go that the htc does not have to approve the maximum building height.

E

Just because it says the maximum is 40, 50 or 60.. So it's it's kind of a clarifying statement to the.

E

Marketplace that if you're in the district, you should go, look at the criteria and not assume.

E

You're going to get a 60 or 50 foot building just uh because it says you can ask for one.

B

That's this is slightly different than what's in your pocket, but it is the same intent and.

B

It expresses the same thing: it's just a little bit more clear, yeah, that's the intention. That's.

E

uh And that's not a substantive change to the code. It's just belt and suspenders that the.

E

Htc already has that jurisdiction, it's just it's just not always clear to people. They do.

E

Including some of them um so mancera roofs, this actually came up a couple of times over.

E

The last couple of years and and liz bradder brought it to me when she was looking at one.

E

Congress street and and maybe 64 uh bond street, uh but there's there's been an inconsistency.

E

In the code, probably for 15 or 20 years in respect to the building height definition at.

E

The back of the code and this illustration that's embedded in the definition, uh the.

E

The illustration, I think, is the appropriate way to deal with a hip top mansard roof, which has.

E

Multiple roof planes and typically dormers coming out of the roof, like the lower section of popovers.

E

You measure building height, to the mean of that roof, meaning the difference. The midpoint between.

E

The ridge and the gutter on the man's heart, but if, in contrast, you do a building that has a flat.

E

Like this, one you'd actually go all the way to the top of that building to calculate the the.

E

Building height itself, so these make sense to me. But if you read the text that sits on top of it.

E

They actually don't correspond uh to what the way a hip hop mansard is.

E

um Addressed in the text that goes with the image, so all I've done here is is made a change that the.

E

Flat top mansard goes to the top of the roof. You don't get any credit for that, one roof plane being.

E

Tilted back you've got to have the two planes with the dormers in order to get the credit.

E

uh To be able to go to the midpoint and that's what the the pitched roof hip-hop mansarda.

E

Gambrell roof. Those are all pitched roof buildings. I think you live in one peter and that's exactly.

E

You know it doesn't read uh in that attic as a full story. It's anyway, that's why it.

E

Was created exactly yeah, could you go back to that slide, showing the different types of roofs.

C

It just confuses me why, depending on the style of building where you'd measure, the top of the roof,.

C

You know the top. When I go to the doctors I get my height. It goes to the top of my head.

C

Not my nose and I don't understand why gambrell would be different than a man's heart.

E

It it isn't. The gambrell the gambrell, like the one peter lives in, is actually like a hip hop man's.

E

Art he's got he's, got two roof planes, so this flat top uh mansard. Let me go back and answer.

E

The first part of the question the roof plane uh above the top story, has a profound impact.

E

On how the building feels at the street level, as you know, you go by just downtown, you go by.

E

Port walk. You go by popovers they're, both 60-foot buildings. They don't feel like 60-foot buildings.

E

The width of this the street obviously affects it, but if you're on the sidewalk in front of.

E

Killam's chocolate with a 58-foot building that pitched roof, which is only going back. A third of.

E

The way and then there's a flat roof in there with all the mechanicals on the top of that building.

E

It's got the dormers coming out of it, so as a pedestrian, the building feels more human.

E

Scale than it would if it was like port walk place, so the spirit of a hip top man's art is.

E

That you're, typically going to have windows, like you, see at the provident back there down at 25.

E

Maplewood it I I I'm certain if they had done a flat top and not done the mansard for that.

E

Building it would read very differently to anybody going by that site, so the idea is to.

E

Encourage pitched roof buildings and not flat roof buildings because of the character of portsmouth.

E

And it's not always going to be perfect, but the flat top over on the on the lower right.

E

You know that that's, maybe not the best example of.

E

Accentuating why that building would look taller than the one on the left.

C

So is this a common measurement scheme like if I go to dover or concord you'll see this.

E

Usy, okay, it just was curious. No, it's like it's a good question and I've seen it in other places.

B

As well, it's very difficult in colonial times the umbrellas were created when, after her majesty, was.

C

Started collecting taxes and they taxed based on the number of windows below the roof line. Oh okay,.

C

Yeah, the french did that in paris uh yeah corey did you have a question? I was just thank you. Nick.

C

For addressing this one, because this one's come up a couple of times, you can think of the project on.

C

The corner of vaughan hanover that yeah, um but I guess the one thing I was common, I was going.

C

To make about that other picture in the corner, it's just flat top and side roof with parapet.

C

Greater than two feet, um so, if it's not, if it's not greater than two, you actually jump down to the.

E

To the top of the roof right, yeah right, so, okay, yeah, I just didn't- know it's almost so that's.

E

Probably a weird scale: that's a six foot parapet as drawn on that or five feet. That's why they went.

E

To the top of it in the illustration I just didn't know in the text, if we wanted, with or without.

C

Just in the text there's a section that allows you to to have a two-foot uh parapet on any building.

E

Yeah yeah, so I don't think we need to the other comment: does that does the um slope of the.

C

Roof portion, yes, make a difference too, because obviously you can push that out and hang shingles.

E

There's a maximum. You want, there's a maximum, a slope, that's in the code, at least in the character.

E

Districts: okay, yeah: there is an outside the historic and outside the his the character.

E

Districts there is no uh maximum pitch. I don't think so. It's something I'll look into. Okay,.

E

All right somewhat clear, right: uh okay, so we we were here and let's go to the. I think the last.

E

Couple of slides two, two more sections and we've already talked about this with the warner house.

E

In the accessory building, there's no reference in the code for any dimensional controls for.

E

Principal or accessory buildings- all we're proposing to do here is is refer to the.

E

Building placement and form standards for the cd4 district for any minute, any civic property.

E

So slight change to this language as well yeah. We can come back to that yeah and these.

E

Are the two sections of the code that are referenced in the cd4? That properties like.

E

The warner house would be able to use and avoid going to the boa to put an addition or.

E

An alteration so the last uh piece of the last but not least, of the amendments that are in this first.

E

First phase is dealing with this issue of backfilling a property after you put the first.

E

Floor first story on the ground, so these are examples of some buildings that have done that.

E

And again, they've been allowed to do this because the code enables it to happen.

E

And and all of these are outside the historic districts, so there's no ability for them to say.

E

Oh, we don't like what you're doing so lower it. uh This is 105 bartlett, which obviously.

E

Hasn't been built, but that that was done in that particular instance. This is the the westerly on.

E

uh Lafayette, where the church used to sit, I mean I, I don't know that it was unsuccessful. When you go.

E

By this site, that's the least flattering look of the building that I took there. But if you.

E

See it from lafayette, it actually isn't a bad looking site, but they did build four-story.

E

Buildings and back fill the basements and turn them into three-story buildings, and they I don't.

E

Think they did this to avoid any regulatory relief, but it's an example of how it happens.

E

And that's the chimberg building down at the bottom next to hannaford, so pretty simple fix.

E

This this was what was in the uh the copy uh sent out to. You was a new definition for the existing.

E

Grade plane, I played with that a little more in the last couple of days, and I think it's in here.

E

As an extended version just to be clear how you measure the height five feet around the.

E

Building six feet off and how you deal with the fact that you may not have six feet set back from.

E

Either a water body or a street, so I tried to maintain consistency with the existing.

E

Definition of grade plane as to how you actually measure it, but the idea here would be if somebody.

E

Comes along this: is it here, so I've added that uh last four lines on on that definition, you.

E

Copies of this are all available here and again that language I just pulled out of.

E

The existing definition for great plane and changed the word finish to existing.

E

Because this was this would be what you use uh if you come along with any of these properties,.

E

You would use the existing grades to calculate your building height for your proposed building.

E

And that's, uh that's not the way it works now and everybody's well aware.

E

uh The buildings are much taller than I think a lot of people anticipated when they get built.

E

So that that's a summary, I think one thing yeah, one thing that I would highlight there is that.

C

The westerly project and the chamber project to some extent have built those buildings almost to.

C

Hide the parking and so now they've created either underground parking or sheltered parking away from.

C

Some of the most trafficked streets that they are sit on, so I don't mind that aspect of it.

C

Obviously, there are exceptions and other examples that we could call out. But for those two examples.

C

I think it worked in the favor of the city so that that could be the case. uh The the reason.

E

I mean look we're dealing with we're dealing with development rights uh and if, if chimberg.

E

Was only able if eric was only able to build a three-story building.

E

uh With underground parking like the westerly, if somebody would do that, so it's not really.

E

uh Always going to be the case that you know the parking uh being underground, even though.

E

It starts above ground and then gets back filled is necessarily a reason to have a building be ten.

E

Feet taller than the code anticipated, I think if we wanted a 60-foot building down there with.

E

Parking on the ground that he wanted to backfill to make it look better. We should say that, but.

E

We shouldn't say it's 50 feet and then wait. You can use the finish grade and you build a 60-foot.

E

Building, so I think we need to just do things with intention. There are going to be buildings.

E

uh Like that, one that might be appropriate given their context, but it's not really fair to us or.

E

The neighborhoods, if we don't know what's going to happen and 10 feet, makes a big difference in.

E

Many of these situations, when you say it that way it does make sense yeah yeah. I think this is.

C

Completely appropriate because I think every other ordinance in every other town goes from.

C

Original grade and the way portsmouth is written. Now it's get an extra free story just bring in.

C

10 feet of dirt up, you go and it's the final height of the building that matters the most.

E

I don't disagree and I'll tell you there's even small scale, residential situations where people.

E

Will bring in phil in order to put a deck and keep it below 18 inches above ground, even though it.

E

Starts out four feet above ground and they bring phil in underneath it in order to build it and.

E

Raise the grade so this can get used. uh You know, inappropriately at any level, not just big projects.

E

Like this, and the word is out well, and I think that in the end, if they really want to do this and.

D

The site is unique enough, like the old dpw site, which kind of was a giant crater of a hole in that.

D

Area I mean, I think, the building's really more to grade of the surrounding neighborhood. So that's a.

D

They could always get a variance and we should be able to do that yeah or we or we change the.

E

Code because we realize hey- maybe the code needs to be different there, but this is something I.

A

Pointed out on the golden egg application, I tried to explain that to the board. um I'm probably the.

A

Only one well maybe a couple others can read the contours, but that's really going to go up a bit.

A

Quite a bit more than what what's there and that's because it's allowed under the ordinance it's the.

D

Same builder as the westerly okay yeah, so the only thing I common I have about existing grades. Is it.

C

Could go the other way too, where they're doing a cut site and therefore, like you know, you take the.

C

Corner of russell and green and that's you know a 10 foot tall rock cut. You take that with this.

C

And then, therefore you know now they've got another story because it's it's a cut site. I know.

C

I kind of talked to you rick about it about maybe doing the curve right. Rather, that would kind of.

C

Address the dpw bowl issue or mound issue. If you will okay, because then you're kind of following.

C

The curve the contour of the neighborhood granted not every site, has a curve all the way around it.

C

But you know you could add a provision discussing curb line into the definition, because that that is.

A

A way in some codes, I've worked on, we've used curved line. I think I mentioned that to you.

A

It and you it's a good point on uh russell street and you're gonna get a lot more of.

C

um Right filling situation that you are on cuts, but you know there are some cuts that could be.

C

Could occur? That's true all right! Let's, if you take a look at it, keep talking about that.

E

Not after tonight, yeah I'm interested yeah.

C

The house that was just built on, um I guess the address- is lafayette, but.

C

As you're going down lafayette past the four-way interception at the end.

F

Exactly what you're talking about it's on the right, there's, a giant rock that they.

C

Did blasting and cutting and all that and that house does sit, probably three feet higher than.

C

Both sides well, what's funny, is they built the house, the foundation's farther up out of.

D

The ground, because I didn't think they dug down probably as far as the other houses.

D

So then they just put a bunch of fill in front of the house to make it give it a hill.

D

It's like great, I remember when that one got subdivided and seeing the oh yeah I was like it.

D

Was I kept wondering if anybody would ever be able to get rid of that rock to build anything there.

A

Yeah is that your presentation that is yeah should go the last slide, please so just a reminder of.

B

The milestones we actually showed this at the last planning board meeting here we are may 5th.

B

For the public uh planning board work session on the 19th, we'll be having a public hearing.

B

And seeking a recommendation again, I advise you and we will send out the uh revised red lines.

B

That capture some of the improvements recommended by nick and clarifications from staff, as we try.

B

And make sure that we all understand exactly what the terms mean and mean, as we read through those.

B

So I think, you've been handed a copy, I believe, did we hand out the revised copy, so the dark.

B

uh Red line- they're black and white um underlying strikethroughs are the most current version um and.

B

Then we will uh have revised red lines and then for the uh public hearing um for you to consider.

B

At your next regular meeting, yes, so because that date is what two weeks away, we get the.

C

Presentation sooner, we will get the presentation posted tomorrow and send you a link. Thank you.

A

Near the board comments before we have public comments, I just want to say this.

C

Has been very helpful and I appreciate all the work you guys have done on this.

D

Yes, thank you for all the work, yeah very clear.

C

Definitely any folks in the audience like to uh say anything. um I appreciate mr kennedy.

D

Why don't you come up and sit at the microphone so that people can hear you at the on the recording.

D

Esther kennedy 41 pikarina, first of all, happy cinco de mayo. Today um I think it.

D

Was good to see it and it was good to watch it, but I always go back to.

D

um I think it was probably your sixth slide. The picture of portsmouth use.

D

Do you remember what the picture was? I I don't know I don't know, I think it was the one with.

D

The master plan and the water view yeah, it's all the water, it's all the cute little houses.

D

And also cute little places, and that seems to be the picture that we always refer to as portsmouth.

D

um So I would keep that in mind when, as we're thinking about our historical culture here.

D

The one thing that makes us different than most communities is the history and our waterfront. So.

D

I would always celebrate it and maybe some point we'll have a grand picture of the north end.

D

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

C

Future huda, 280 south street. um I think this is great and it's very helpful. um The only.

B

Thing, I would ask, is you sync up what was on uh on the site and what you have here.

C

Because I was trying to follow the corrections that were made and um if you could get them.

C

All together and and these bile stones, that would be great. Thank you. Thank you.

F

Good evening elizabeth bradder 159 dennis street property owner.

F

I wanted to ask about section 105821.22.

F

Where you change number c, so they can all see it.

E

That one there so in the one that was listed online, it showed that c was changed to more.

F

Than 25 feet, oh yeah, that's great thanks for bringing that up. So what is it really going to.

E

Be yeah. What did I do right? Sorry, the question? If, if, if you didn't hear her, was I think the version.

E

That might have been distributed had that 50 changed to 25 right, and I noticed when I was going.

E

Back through this, uh and I've been going back and forth myself on the 25 versus 50., that's the step.

E

Back we've talked about ad nauseam here uh for a shorter building height on on a particular street.

E

And I noticed that I didn't address it in in a when I looked at it, so the version you've got.

E

Got 50, I think, for a and 25 for c, but the more I thought about it uh over the last couple of days. I.

E

I think it's better just to leave it the way it is. I think it's a when you think of the hill hanover.

E

Example that we went through that little box of uh taller building would get quite a bit larger if.

E

You were only required to be 25 feet back instead of 50 from the, so I I think it makes sense given.

E

All we've got on our plate here to leave it at 50. um so that that's what you'll see in the updated.

E

Presentation: okay, and can you pull up the hill hanover street with the height of the example or.

E

That shows the actual heights there, because I thought map geo showed that.

F

Hill street was it at 50 um yeah. It is two to four stories: 50 feet, yeah, sorry yeah. It's brown.

E

Yeah, it's brown. If, whatever the brown is, let me grab it. Yeah brown is two to four yeah two.

E

To four stories yeah, so is hill street gonna be changed to green, because that's not what it shows.

E

On this lower map correct, so you just showed in your other illustration that hill street was green.

F

And found replaced with, do you mean the example? Yes, okay, let me go the example. Make sure it.

F

Works when you went to the example, you showed that right there it is so you show. Oh okay,.

E

No, it's correct, so what we talked about uh liz- and I know you know that, but I did mention that it.

E

Because of beth's question about whether this is appropriate, especially if we're going to make this.

E

Brown down here on foundry place, which it should be.

E

Whether it's appropriate to continue to have this line be brown through here.

E

And I think it's worth considering as part of this review changing that to green, which would allow a.

E

Step down for this building, not the one that's grandfathered, but should it come back in a new.

E

Iteration there would be a little more deference given to these buildings.

E

Which would certainly threaten them less uh than this being a taller building, but that's not in.

E

Front of us, but I think that's worth through the exercise in the conversation here evaluating if.

E

We're going to make that brown unfoundry place. Maybe we should revisit changing this to green.

E

These are already green here, right, yeah and that's the side. That's up against the 35-foot buildings.

C

The other problem with that location on foundry and hill street is the amount of grade that.

F

Happens there, it wasn't originally quite that much but when you dug the hole to put that big old.

F

Garage in there that became a very large gray jar. It actually goes all the way down to street level.

F

And then it comes up to be six or ten feet, but it's interesting how that grade is perceived by.

F

By builders and what they come up with with what they can do with that, so.

F

That's my concern about the hill street side being lower than what it what you would normally put.

F

There so it's three to four three stories 40 feet, but it could be two to two stories with the third.

F

It's a short third and 35 feet so you're talking about changing the green to something I'm talking.

F

About changing hill street- oh hill, here the you could do it on hanover as well, because then it.

F

Would match the rest of the neighborhood? If you had a picture of the whole neighborhood, you can.

F

See that most of its grc and that is 35 feet. So if you did hill street as well as hanover.

F

Street and made it two stories with a short third, which would be 35 feet which would match the rest.

F

Of the neighborhood, when that was changed, that whole section was changed. I mean I think it's.

E

Worth looking at, and so the options are leave it the way it is which is four stories or or 50 feet.

E

The brown yeah, I'm not sure, that's that's that that's the current, that's oh! We know that or yeah.

E

I'm just wanting everybody to be clear on what the choices are moving forward, leave it the way it is.

E

We're not proposing to change it. This was just an example of how the multiple building heights.

E

Work on a lot, that's on multiple streets, but it could either be brown. It could be, could be green.

E

I'd need some time to think about the blue, which is the next step down. I hear what you're saying.

E

It's five feet: uh this building obviously, would be taller than the blue. uh The triple decker down.

E

Here it is, you know we we need to just we're yeah, it's a it's a delicate balance right to.

E

Decide what it is you want to protect versus people having the rights to replace things.

E

uh Over time- and I think that's important about this- is that that part of hill street was all.

F

Residential understood it was, it was zone grc and when the foundry garage went in, that was changed.

F

To cd5 yeah yeah so to support a very different neighborhood than has been here for the past 80.

E

Years, right, more like the neighborhood that was there prior to 80 years, which was an industrial.

F

Neighborhood with big buildings yeah, so those were my two things that I noticed.

E

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody on zoom, I think we had one person.

A

Nope nope, we did.

D

I earlier we should check.

A

Okay, we've got some reading and thinking to do, I guess I have one last generic question. Nick yep.

C

I'm sure this has been thought about before, but do any other cities and towns instead of having.

C

All this conflict with zoning height differences over the same property, do they ever like just blot.

C

Out properties and say this property will be this height and that might create other problems. But it.

C

Seems like when you have heights based on lines around streets, you're always going to have these.

C

Conflicts with some properties having two height standards, yep, there's no question: it presents a.

E

Challenge a design challenge and a permitting challenge, but mainly design to come up with.

E

The right building for a site that has multiple building heights, I will tell you that it's got to.

E

Be in the high 80s, the percentage of properties that do not suffer that affliction, so we're not.

E

Dealing with it being a run-of-the-mill situation- uh and I think probably out of the remaining 10 or.

E

12 percent that are in the situation of congress street, remember congress street and reigns ab are.

E

Kind of outliers because they merge lots, you know so then you've got this added uncertainty.

E

Of what's going to happen when you start attaching and creating these things when they don't exist,.

E

When you adopt the code right yeah, because congress street didn't have uh haven cord.

E

Attached to it before they attach them and merge them and rains app did the same thing with the.

E

Vanguard building being attached all the all three of those lots. There are four different building.

E

Heights for reigns ave and we have to allocate them across that frontage and it got tricky.

E

Because the taller building the vanguard building, which was brown and uh four stories and fifty feet.

E

Plus the ability to go taller that what they're now proposing the hotel to sit on, they were able.

E

To bleed that height into the middle building lot, but only 50 feet back from the street.

E

So that's why you have a step down in the building that that effect, you guys were talking about.

E

So it's not one size fits all. Most communities do not have a building height map. That's based.

E

On streets and public places, this is this is not normal, but that doesn't make it bad. I.

E

Think it makes it better, it's trickier it's! It can be more challenging in instances like that.

E

But I think it it produces better outcomes because you don't want to have a building on sheep street.

E

uh You know having a building as tall as the ones on state street, just because they're on.

E

The same lot and bleed its way over. We got one right in front of us now at the.

E

Historic district commission next to the little park where big additions are being contemplated.

E

On the back of the the state street house that has a garage off of chief, so there's no perfect.

E

Solution, I think this is better than than a more global. The whole 60 feet. 50 feet 40 feet whatever.

E

It is, I, I think it works uh imperfectly, but yeah. I again I don't have the answers, but I.

C

I just wouldn't I'd prefer a method that wouldn't encourage monopoly where you know what happens.

C

In monopoly, where you buy all your neighbors properties and you hope to drag the rules with it,.

C

I think that's where you can run into some problems and I don't think we're finding.

E

That uh is a is a significant problem. I know on rain's ave there was the ability to bump up.

E

But not much because it's 50 feet back from the street and there's the 100 foot buffer on the back.

E

So the amount of extra space they got by merging those lots was pretty de minimis.

E

And don't forget if the htc doesn't like the way that looks this, that you can call it gaming.

E

Legitimately the code, the htc is under no obligation to approve something that looks.

E

Odd, just because the math worked, so we have to rely- and you know I think the citizens of the city.

E

Really need to participate and engage that commission, as it does its job. If.

E

They see something they don't like, as well as something they do like we, we don't have a.

E

We don't have a lot of citizen engagement at the historic commission so that that to me is a bigger.

E

Problem than the code nick, I don't hope this isn't a big. If it's a big question, it's a non-question.

A

The 3d model that you use is that something that you could show some of these possible.

A

Massing differences on some of these streets. Is that easy, or is that kind of a big deal scenario.

E

Building is tricky, but what I could do, because I'm not an avid enough user to create my own models.

E

But we we at the historic district commission, I think the planning board.

E

Rick and I have talked about getting the tool in front of you guys, as well as the historic district.

E

Commission, when somebody comes in so we've got, we've got the same set of projects you guys have.

E

At the planning board, we've got rainz ab. We have. We see these things for sometimes years.

E

Before they make it over to the planning board, like two russell's on its eighth work session,.

E

Which is the sheraton lot and what we require is when they build their graphics model.

E

They give us the graphics file, we insert it into the 3d model of the city through the public works.

E

Department in the gis department, they take the graphics file inserted into a scene of buildings.

E

That surround the site and create a computer generated model that allows us to see at each.

E

Meeting, we don't do it religiously. We need to improve, on our end, getting those graphics files.

E

And getting them into uh it's all cloud-based, so you can even look at this on your phone. Anybody.

E

Put the link on the web page, we we've fallen a little bit out of practice, we're also a little.

E

Bit overwhelmed by the amount of stuff, that's in front of us uh on the big project, end of the.

E

Scale, but we just did it the other night for 85 daniel street and I could send any of you.

E

As an example, I'll we'll post the link for 85 daniel, which is the the house across from the.

E

Mcintyre, that's been purchased and they're going to put some dormers in a garage off the back of it.

E

We put it in the system created the scene and you know I could pull it up on my phone and it's a.

E

Really powerful tool to at least see what you're looking at before you approve it, because you can.

E

Walk right around the building wow, so we yeah and I I apologize I've I've not been able to use.

E

That as much as we need to and get it to the other boards, but I'll make an effort to do that. The only.

C

Other thing I was going to add nick to on the gis front, is um as someone who is slightly color blind.

C

Sometimes the colors on matte geo, oh they're, terrible struggle with, and so I always have to.

C

Have the legend right there I hear you and they're too thin. If there's I don't know, if there's a.

C

Way to either label the lines or something along those lines. um Yeah I'll talk to jamie.

E

Just be helpful when you're, like you know out in no man's land on the map and you're like wait, a.

C

Second, I can grab the legend figure this out. I think line weight is the way to address it, but.

C

That'd, be fine by me all black and white, if you're, if you're taking some general suggestions. Yes,.

C

On the zoning maps themselves, I think some of them you're, like there's three maps on it on one.

E

Page by 11 yep, it's like wow, I mean you can't just vary it. You can't decipher it. So if you could blow.

C

I mean we plot those and you can you not zoom in when you're looking at electronically, I mean we've.

E

Got wall size, uh printouts of those same maps, so you they're pdfs, and you should be able to.

C

I'm just thinking you know as you scroll through. I don't see a reason why you have to have so many.

C

Zoning maps on one document- I don't know why they can't be separated into different pages.

C

We could do that yeah, I mean it's: the building, height the character districts, the regulating plan.

E

And the the frontage map- those are all on one sheet and they aren't easy to read if.

E

You're doing it electronically, you have to zoom in and out so it's a point well take it.

A

Okay, I think we are done.

A

Shall we have a motion to adjourn.

D

Or we could just stand, we can just end. We can just in just walk.

E

Thank away, thank you very much. Thank you. Everyone thanks nick thank you.