City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Public Art Review Committee, 5 Sep 2023

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From YouTube: 8.30.2023 Public Art Review Committee

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8.30.2023 Public Art Review Committee

A

B

Sorry, anyway,.

A

um I think I had handed we'd handed out the criteria. The proposed criteria, the last time.

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And I just wanted to kind of do a quick little recap of what we did and how we got there. But.

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What we tried to do is we took everything that we had been talking about from the two handouts.

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That we had been given over criteria for public art that had already been done here in town and.

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As well as we took what the charge was from the council, so we kind of synthesized those.

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And distilled them and kind of restructured them, so we could have it in a couple of broader terms.

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But also in a way that we could block it into like five or four different groups, the other thing that.

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We really did was we took and said here's our goal. This was actually one of the criteria that.

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The council had used, but what we did decide to turn it into a goal which was the uh high.

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Quality aesthetically, appealing work of art that effectively um expresses the needs and purposes of.

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The project, as defined in the rfp by the committee or by the commissioning body and again we can add.

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Anything to that, if we need to, I think, as we go through each of these you're, going to see that.

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There is some overlap and that's mostly because there's so much difference, that's um like each.

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One of these makes a difference to each other, or they kind of just there's nothing meshed together.

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So we didn't want to totally put one in one pocket without putting it in the other. So we did that as.

A

Well, so I think if you'd like to, we can just go through them. Is that what you like to do.

C

I think it makes sense to see what people's comments might be on each one, and then we can.

C

Incorporate those and maybe send it around for a a vote by the committee- sure happy to do that.

A

um I think when we talk about and again each of these are pretty straightforward and we wanted.

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To make sure that they were flexible enough to be adaptable, for whatever is considered in the future.

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Because there's with technology and everything else happening, we want to make sure that we, these.

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Can be flexible too, no matter what is considered public art and what we want to talk about as.

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Being part of public art, so the first thing we talked about was site and it really gets to the.

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um The availability of appropriate site- and it means the architectural geographical, social.

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Cultural context of the site and the immediate community will be considered, as well as the ways.

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The public may interact with that art. The second one was accessibility and it really is to promote.

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Or to pro the proposed artwork for all individuals, including the facility users, the surrounding.

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Community members, as well as those with special needs, we wanted to make sure that anything was.

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We looked at was accessible, the other was the safety and the liability, and it's really trying to.

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Understand what public safety and liability issues may be incorporated? There's also traffic patterns.

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And this is: how would this artwork affect any kind of vehicular or pedestrian traffic patterns.

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And then the current conditions is there anything existing within that proposed side of web as well.

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And then there's always going to be some project specific requirements depending upon what that is.

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That we have to take into consideration from the site and other details specific to that project.

A

That's in consideration, so so let's pause there and uh hear comments about that about that. First.

C

Set and sean, if you can help, because I can't see the full room, so people can just speak up and okay.

D

Well, just initial reaction is very comprehensive. um I did have one question about the whole public.

D

Works angle, um would you know any needs we might have to take into consideration for.

D

Either build out at the site or maintenance of the site does that would that fall under.

D

Project specific, I think those will come in the next section about correct. That's again.

A

This is why it's kind of you kind of have to look at it as a whole, but then trying to okay.

A

I know it's a little confusing, but I think we hit that in the ongoing maintenance, perfect.

C

One thing I wondered based on the uh presentation or the discussion that we had with margot from the.

C

Htc, I know social cultural would include historical, but I wondered if we wanted to.

C

Just spell out historical because of the htc's particular interest in that.

E

I wrote the exact same thing down that sounds wise and then just speak. Speaking from the landscape.

E

Architecture's perspective, this is it, I think it hit a sweet spot. It's really nice, it's real! It's.

E

Just enough to give a framework without being to ocd about it. So right, and I also just wanted to.

E

Say because it wasn't on the recording is that we did this our general trend. We did talk about this.

E

Whether it was going to become like an ordinance or whether it's become, I would call it a guideline.

E

Or or a procedure or something like that, and I really like the non-ordnance approach to it so.

E

It can be a working living methodology that we use understanding that if it's written as an ordinance.

E

And we've got to follow it to the to the to the across the t's and dot the eyes. And whereas this.

E

Gives us a more flexible uh methodology that is going to be much more. You know so much of.

E

Creation of art or public spaces, or whatever it is is, is an interactive conversate. This is much.

E

More of that, so thank you for appreciating that yeah very much because I thought we'd want that to.

E

Be on the recording? Yes, this is not an ordinance, and it's really true, because I think what we're.

A

Trying to do is make it flexible as possible and also very organic, because again, what's going to be.

A

Coming in the future yeah, so we want to make sure. On the other hand, it's very useful yes, because.

F

Absolutely you know, we've already seen examples of basically an ego driven artwork. You know I.

E

Won't mention any names or places, but we've seen that that didn't look at really anything of this.

E

It was five times all of the context uh for that particular project. If we'd have this, as I know,.

E

As something that just to say look, this is these are things that we think are important to consider.

F

Thank you so anyways, it's uh it's yeah. It's really nicely done.

C

Other small and current conditions, I wonder if we want to add something about the relationship.

C

To I think, that's what you're implying, but I think it's the relationship to.

C

Existing artwork, uh I think this will come into play, certainly in bohanco park and if.

C

We do something with pierce island, so I think you imply that that maybe actually saying that.

C

um And then and then the other thing under safety and liability, because they're always.

C

Safety and liability issues with uh with you know large outdoor pieces. It's maybe in.

C

Addition to understanding what they are ways to address uh or um that there are ways to address.

C

The the safety and liability issues, not just you know, bringing them forward.

C

And bob I'll, let you take over now.

G

I I thought I was supposed to be here at 5, 30. yeah, sorry about that.

G

um So you've done one two you're on three right: we did this just the site is that again we did.

C

Just the first section site: okay, so just finished that part right there all right.

G

So now, in the next section, they're going through so the cost, I think when the cost.

A

Again, a lot of these things really kind of fall into the artist which is going to be back on the.

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Artist experience in the background, but again they're sort of overlapped, so we just wanted.

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To make sure that they were called out in both sections and if you look at the cost of course,.

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There's a budget and the artist of course should submit a budget for total projected.

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Cost of installation and maintenance of artwork, including design materials, fabrications insurance.

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Transportation, storage and installation and then the product project completion. I think.

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That we're trying to say that, while the within this budget, we have to make sure that the artist.

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Has a can demonstrate the fact that they have some history in completing projects within the budget.

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The schedules is the same thing: they should should submit a fabrication and installation.

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Schedule project timelines, including the design review panels, fabrication delivery,.

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As well as the installation and then of course, there's the technical feasibility and the artist.

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Has to confirm that there's a feasibility of construction and installation through history.

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Or through appropriate professional examination, we have to make sure that whatever we say or.

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Approve of and say yes, this is what we want to do actually can be technically achieved.

A

And then, of course, there's the ongoing maintenance. I think this is where we were talking beth through.

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This one: it's the inclusion of a mandatory maintenance plan, including the materials used.

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Or proper care of such materials and it's also the durability. It's structural and surface soundness.

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The operational costs that are included in that and the inherent resist or excuse me inherent.

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Resistance to fee dot to theft, nuisance vandalism, weathering and excessive maintenance, and will the.

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Work need ongoing, updating or refreshing, and, if that's so, who's going to be responsible for that.

A

So that's what we covered in the cost aspect of it is there anything to add any changes. I guess.

E

I would just say that the first budget, where you put installation in maintenance, I would take the.

E

Maintenance out of that one, because you don't super nice job on the last bullet that would.

E

Be associated with maintenance, you might even say I mean you ask and who will be responsible.

E

And will this be a city obligation or I mean just you know just to like that's a that's a good place.

E

To have a deep dive because there is a lot of stuff out there. That's not necessarily important.

E

For this badly maintained- and it looks terrible because no one knows how to take care of it right.

E

So anyways, um you know, building on what bob just said. Some of that is about preparation of the site.

C

And thinking of the whale wall- and I wonder if I wonder if that should be called out specifically.

D

And that's where I was going with the um my mention of public works that came from our.

D

Experience with the portsmouth community garden and public works was fantastic to work with, but.

D

We needed them really upfront to help us cleaning and the discussions even before.

D

We came up with a specific proposal. I don't know if that's the same, for.

D

These scenarios- well, it certainly was true of the bearing ground, as you might imagine so I.

C

Wonder if even calling out in that technical feasibility, even mentioning something about.

C

Consultation with public works because of what you're just saying that did we put that up with.

A

The site, or should we put that with there, would that be more appropriate in the site aspect of it.

H

Maybe you need it in both right. I mean you know which one thing.

B

Appropriate and the maintenance needs to be yeah appropriate or right. Okay,.

H

I think kate has something she wants to say. Well, I I was just going to add.

I

um I think it's it's important to consult, but be mindful uh that uh you don't want.

I

Them making a decision about where something goes, because it's the easier place to put it.

I

You want to make sure that the committee still controls based upon best, citing of a work.

C

It certainly is related to budget.

J

Right well, I I think the committee makes the decision okay and then, if that's approved, it's not.

J

Asking dpw permission: it is consulting in terms of.

J

If this is the location, what are your concerns right for the committee to consider and then.

J

But still to I, I think councilor cook's point makes a decision without with the full information.

J

And that and then and then dpw would be, um instructed how to bring it, bring it forth.

K

My only comment on this section was the title: does whether cost really yeah or.

K

Whether it's budgeted feasibility or budget and maintenance, or just something or even technical,.

K

Yeah, I don't know something broader than just cost: okay budget technical.

C

I, like the feasibility technical feasibility, that that feels like a lot of covers a lot of that.

C

And I see you use that as a subtitle um in place of just cost for this, the the types.

K

Of the title of this okay got it. Feasibility cover at all, his ability is broader, but budget.

K

And technical feasibility is long and long-term maintenance yeah well right. So maybe just because.

K

It's still only still only in one line right.

H

Does this mean we've decided on feasibility? Just feasibility can resolve okay.

A

Anything else on this one, I see you have a category in the second page of artists, experience.

E

And history that goes redundant with the uh demonstrated history of completing projects within.

E

Budget- I guess it's that's within budget right once I think our point was that we just, I think.

A

We talked about that earlier. We have, we have it in kind of multiple places, because it's all it's it's.

A

They're kind of both they fit really under both. We can certainly take one out, but I just we wanted.

A

To make sure that that I went back and I read within budget and then the one in the other age.

E

Is not about budget confidence yeah, because they both I mean you have to be generally competent to.

A

Get the feasibility it's kind of chicken and egg, but we wanted to make sure we covered it.

A

In both, but we can certainly eliminate anything if it's too redundant anything else on this one.

A

And when it comes to the aesthetics, we talked about the aesthetics element and how do the.

A

Extent this is the hard one, because this it gets really really subjective, but we wanted the subject.

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Or the elements, the shape line, form color, texture composition, function in the proposed works and of.

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Course it's the relationship to the site. Is it the appropriate radius of the size scale.

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Of materials for the site or sites, and how does the work relate to the site? Does it reinforce or.

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Expand what's currently there and the coherence. Do the various separate elements express strong.

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Ideas with clarity and consistency, especially in terms of communicating the works proposed purpose.

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Then we flip over the back side and it's the use of materials are the materials traditional or.

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Innovative is there a mix and how do they relate to the works, defined, intent or purpose and are the.

A

Materials ethically unresponsibly sourced again is that local is it local, recycled, recyclable. I.

A

Think we ask those questions. I don't think again as a guideline. I don't think that we have to.

A

Necessarily that was it, but is that something that we need to consider, and especially going.

A

And the expressiveness, what emotions are evoked within the viewer and are they appropriate for.

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The stated purpose of the work does it enhance the viewer's experience of the site, how much of.

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The work expressed, how does the work express the intended purposes without explanation.

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If there are written elements, how do they work with the visual elements.

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And then the context is the artwork compatible in scale, material form and content with its.

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Surroundings, how does the artwork relate to and function within its environment, for example, does.

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It establish focal points, modify, enhance or define specific spaces, establish, identify or address.

A

Specific issues of civic design are there barriers to direct participation with the work lots going.

A

On here, but we've wanted to try to cover all the aspects of it, so it gives us a point of discussion.

A

Thoughts on this one, this one's a tuffy well, I actually actually would like to.

L

Say it isn't because the way you've worded it I think, takes the subjectivity out for.

L

Example: you're not saying do you like the shade line, form you're, just saying.

L

How do the elements function in the work, which is a really good, jumping off point.

L

And gives people, I think, the conversation tools, so I thought that was great foreign.

C

I think it really does a great job of of covering things that have often not been covered. The only.

C

Note I made in the bullet that says: use of materials that about innovation is focused on.

C

Materials, I wonder about the overall um concept itself and whether it's innovative imaginative.

C

uh Not quite sure how to make that go, but I think we've all had the experience of one of the things.

C

When you're traveling and you see public art in different places, it's that imaginative.

C

uh How the overall concept comes together? Sometimes it's whimsical. Sometimes it's.

C

Just really clever, it's innovative! You haven't seen something like that before. Obviously, it's.

C

Not going to apply to every single piece, but I think to elevate that in some way.

A

Would you put that with the aesthetic elements on the very first one.

C

I think you could. Foreign bullet has an opportunity, because you give one.

E

Example that says: does it reinforce or expand upon? What's currently there and.

E

What I wrote down is, or does it create a whole new vocabulary of place, yeah.

L

I I think, if you give it its own bullet point, though anybody that cares to look through this.

L

That might be thinking of submitting something would see if that's a bullet point that that's.

L

Something to consider innovative or imaginative, whichever way you want to go right, yeah they're.

A

Both, I think, they're sort of separate, though in some ways the two words yeah they're, really yeah,.

K

Okay, I guess I was looking at this from the point of view of somebody who might be submitting if.

K

We're calling these guidelines and these, if we call them discussion, points, that's one thing.

K

The guidelines they're really all over the place like if I looked at this I would say well, do they.

K

Want to be innovative, do I want something tradition? I don't I don't know, that's how.

K

uh My my initial reaction was just like wow. That's everything in the.

K

Kitchen sink, and can we pair this down to a fewer words so that we can.

K

Communicate into our you know, intent a little. I don't know really in the rfp.

K

Well, that's my question. I guess you know. I would think that this these are guidelines.

A

For the overall- and I think those are very pr again, my thought was these were very. They would.

A

Be very product project specific when you put together an rfp, so maybe it's maybe my reaction.

K

Is based on the questions like yes, but couldn't these be turned into statements like the others.

C

And not just be questions: okay, yeah. I think that would be consistency like you're asking someone to.

K

Define how these things function in the work and then they can say. Oh okay, I need to think about.

K

This but some open-ended questions, something like on the first one like aesthetic elements.

E

Describe how the other static elements of shapeline foreign function on the function.

E

In the proposals work and it's a statement yeah, I like that: okay yeah yeah, maybe all those questions.

E

Lend themselves to a statement. I I'm. I thought that this was. [music] um I thought that this.

L

Was the document for any committee that would be evaluating the art, but if it's a public document.

L

An artist could look at it and see how the work would be evaluated. That was my mind. Thinking.

L

um Which might be important, not a good thing? I don't know you said it was hard.

L

Beware right: this is the this is the kicker so that what I was going to say was, as you know, sort.

D

Of new to city committees, you know I thought it was very interesting in the early sessions where.

D

We talked about that framework and how we really aren't being subjective. Is it appropriate to have.

D

Some mention of that in here that the committee has x framework. So even though we're taking all.

D

Of these things into account, I mean it's a pretty robust structure for how we're going.

D

To be assessing, I don't know if it's a value to put that in so that's the question. Maybe there's.

E

Something under goal at the top about that says methodology or you know how to use this, how you.

C

Use this document just to sort of rules, not rules of the road but guidelines. You know that's nice.

B

Yeah, I'm thinking uh these are supplementary to the um the ordinance that we are. You know.

G

Operating under okay, and so this provides another set of guidelines for proceeding. We, if we, I assume.

G

We're going to adopt these at some point and if we do that this will be another element in our review.

G

Process I was just gonna say if the methodology was defined. Maybe I would retract a statement.

K

Into knowledge- and it's then we can see these are questions that the committee will consider and.

K

That makes it in terms of the translation of this under the street. My principal concern is.

E

Is, let's have the opportunity for a full spectrum of artistic expression to have.

E

Have works that are derivative of sight and history and culture that are basically.

E

Talking about portsmouth and everything, but also, let's have some magic happen. Let's happen, let's.

E

Have a moment of genius that someone brings something that no one necessarily thought.

E

Of but if it works with this and it's a whole new thing, then wouldn't that be wonderful, also.

E

There are lots of people, lots of artists that do that that that's just the way they do things, but.

E

It's you know like you, never would imagine, stone wall would be built the way andy goldsworthy does.

E

The stone wall, when he does it he knocks it out of the ballpark, is a whole new idea, but it is.

E

It is derivative of place, usually, I think what this is suggesting is, even though these are.

C

Guidelines, uh the preface of the methodology, including the definition of public art, because.

C

We don't want these to be floating around on their own without without that framing. So I think that.

C

Will that will allay a lot of the questions that will come up? I have one more comment that I'd like.

H

To make about use of materials, I I think that um I would like to see something about interaction.

H

With existing materials, so if they're putting you know, if there's uh concrete on the street a.

H

Sidewalk or uh what whatever else is around there, I would think that that would be another element.

H

Somehow, even though I know it's part of the site as well, it seems like it could belong here as well.

A

So for clarification for me, as I'm writing down notes here,.

A

And I will, I will follow this up, send it to sean and we can take another look at it.

A

Are the questions? Do I need to take the questions out or if we do, the methodology.

A

On how to use that, could I leave do I leave the questions in and I know for consistency.

A

Yes, but this one we for some reason we just kept coming up with questions, as opposed to statements.

C

But I do think they relatively, as bob said, easily made into statements. So you know the the.

C

Work relates to the site the work reinforces or expands upon. What's currently on this site, I don't.

C

Eight, I don't think they're they're, that different from the others. Okay,.

C

You know if, if you get stuck that's something we can all take a look at.

K

uh One other thing that jumped to mind here, as you said, derivative of history. What's margot's comment.

K

About historical accuracy in the aesthetics part, I think that is where that belongs, that.

K

Was one of the htc's concerns that, if it if it is derivative of something that it's, if we do history.

E

We're gonna do history right, that's right what we don't have to do it, but you don't have to oh.

B

What's a little historical fiction among friends.

A

Anything else to this section.

A

And then the last section again, a lot of it is a little bit redundant.

A

It's the experience in the history of the artist and again the relevance, experience.

A

Should have provide convincing evidence of the ability to successfully complete a project as.

A

Demonstrated by previously executed and installed artworks the diversity again we're going to.

A

um Saw it from our artists of diverse ethnic, cultural and geographic identities,.

A

The committee will encourage artists both working in both established and non-traditional art forms.

A

In all applicable media and the installation experience does the artist have a successful.

A

Track record, I will change that the artist has a successful track record um of installation of.

A

Construction of artwork and then the fabrication and installation schedules will include a project.

A

Timeline that includes design review panels, fabrication delivery, installation in accordance.

A

With the project, schedule and proof of payment to any third-party vendors fabricators or any.

A

Agencies subcontracted by the artist may be required yeah anything to add to this one.

K

No are artists here would have something to raise just as a consideration when we say we.

K

Want to encourage people of diverse ethnicultural geographic areas and then we say, but you have to.

K

Have done this many times before those two things are often in conflict and that's just something.

K

That is who we just want to make sure. I don't know if we change the guidelines, I'm just sort of.

K

Would say is that you know whether it's.

E

Architecture or landscape or art is that the the integration of craftsmanship and fabrication is.

E

Is quite frequently something that is brings in you know people of particular technical.

E

Competency to do the execution, so I don't think it has to be that the artist has to have shown.

E

uh You know have to has to have shown that they've done the exact same kind of installation 10 times.

E

Though, because nothing more agonizing, when you want to come up with something, that's really.

E

Cool and you need some help and pull it off. Is that you don't? You know you should be able to.

E

Say I'm going to have some help on this brought in yeah, maybe or add his teammate, their team members.

E

um Yeah, I think we've almost almost got it on the fabrication and installation.

E

Skin it's almost there, but I think it uh it has to do with their.

A

Would you put that with the experience of the installation.

L

Can I just maybe there's a different way to approach it so, for example, when we were looking.

L

At some really really creative submissions for um the tower, the stair tower at foundry place.

L

The submission captured our imagination and they had the technical skills to bill it, but not to.

L

And to build it, but not to install it without compromising the integrity of the glass they.

L

Just have that, and they didn't have a plan for that it was kind of like so I think we.

L

Could say something like and if you know in lieu of ex a track record, is there a plan or.

L

You know help me with some wordsmithing here but like um yeah, is there a plan that.

L

Describes how the installation.

L

Plan to bring the all the technical expertise needed, yeah.

L

They had been able to articulate a plan to us found the foundry garage.

L

Stairwell would prob could potentially look different than it does right now.

L

Is really close and I'm just writing in here at the installation. You know.

E

Construction, slash installation of artworks and the specific technical.

E

Expertise and to your point, to accomplish the installation or something like to accomplish it.

E

Have you guys noticed- um and maybe it's just because I've been spending a lot of time on.

L

Linkedin, um there's a there's, a statement now on job applications. That says, even if.

L

You don't think you check off all the boxes for this job apply anyway. You know we'll consider.

L

Your whole application, I wonder if there's a some sort of to capture those emerging artists.

L

That haven't had opportunity. I wonder if there's some sort of way we can say that.

K

But you know, like you're, saying demonstrating the technical like a plan, but track record is always.

K

It's a huge sticking point and there's a huge thing that turns away yeah. Well, I don't have a.

K

Track record, I'm not getting bothered so anyway, it is if it's in here or in the methodology or.

K

Somewhere, but if we encourage no exactly, I think the the work plan is a good idea and, of course, one.

C

Way to demonstrate that is, if you do have a track record, but um focusing it more on a work plan.

C

Yeah yeah would we take track record out altogether or vote or work plan detailed work plan.

D

Or is that I would just say, does the art has the artist successfully completed installation.

E

Construction, installation of artworks and the specific requirements of this proposed project.

K

That's what I'm pushing back on yeah.

E

But they might have to have that with them with as their team. Yes, you know like. If or do you want.

E

To do a stained glass but it, but they don't do the stained glass, letting right they bring in a person.

E

That does and they they design they designed it. They do the you know they do. The design.

E

Some artists are doing a design and then they partner with a fabricator, that's very, very common.

B

Okay, you're still really close, we gotta get. We want to get right there, so I could use a little bit just.

A

Where, as a group, where do we want to put this and how do we, you don't have to we I'll wordsmith, it.

A

In a minute, but I just need to get some keywords in there and then we can we can. I can work on this.

A

A bit I have so, I think I think that that what I'm hearing people say is we want the artist to.

C

Know the technical expertise that's required, they may not themselves have carried it out, but we want.

C

Them to um understand the technical expertise and have a plan for um acquiring any expertise.

C

That they themselves don't have so could we also say in that last section instead of calling it.

H

The artist's experience in history could we say the art teams, right experience and history and.

H

So that it's it's clear that we understand that one person can't do everything in this project.

J

Artist and or team and or team yeah good, oh right, I think we might define what we mean by the artist.

K

If we want to say the artist all the way through here, maybe in our methodology, the artist maybe.

K

Do you remember you know whatever just yeah man, it could be where you could say you know the artist.

G

Consist of you could be, could consist of a team, then it's a technical specialist, exactly yeah.

C

Anything else I have one more thing. Often these projects.

L

As long as you get the gist, I'm thinking of you know think of how they actually provide this to us.

E

And I'm thinking like okay, so I'm looking at our rfp for something like this and I read the first.

E

One here and it takes three lines for us to say: we want their resume or their cv. We will I'm sorry.

E

We want their resume, we want a resume, we want a project list, we want some references from people.

E

Who you know participations for that you've been successful? People are on budget, I mean basically.

E

This is, this is where they, but they shouldn't, have to create from scratch stuff. That is, I.

E

Mean we should we should give them a nice clean way of presenting their credentials, because most.

B

Sure they had, you know they, they just that's a living document that they do and they refresh it.

E

Every now and again, and and that's really what we want so there's a way to simplify that that.

E

Makes because it's one thing to do the artwork and it's another day what we're specifically.

F

Is yeah because this isn't their document? That's a group. This is our document. No yeah.

C

There's one other area: I think that should be called out here, a lot of times the public art.

C

Require includes engagement of the public, a public process and that's an area where.

C

It is important if, if uh that is proposed, that we do see relevant experience related to that.

J

Relative to engaging the public- yes, yes, and I wouldn't require it with everyone, but if that.

C

Is part of the process um you know over the last decade or two when that's become very popular to.

C

Do a number of people feel they need to put it into the application, but there's nothing that is.

C

Worse than somebody who isn't natural with it doesn't know how to do. It doesn't really want.

C

To do it but thinks it's required to in in you know, put themselves in the position of leading.

C

Public engagement processes like that, so if it's a part of the proposed project, we want to see some.

C

Experience and that's where a detailed plan comes into play as well.

A

One last time anything else: don't don't keep asking that question what I'm hearing.

A

Is I'm going to take this back and mar and I will work on this kind of with all these.

A

Changes and things that you have suggested right, I will send it to sean to send out.

A

With the changes and updates yeah right, yes and then maybe the plan would be to uh if we.

G

Reach consensus adopt it at the next meeting. Does that work.

A

Everybody: okay. Thank you. Thank you.

B

G

um City council referral for walks at prescott park now kate. Do you want to um just weigh in.

G

On this briefly, I mean we haven't, we received a you know a statement from you that it is being.

G

Referred but we not, we haven't, received anything any official document should we expect that or no.

G

uh So there won't be any official document. It was just a motion to ref. I made the motion to refer. It.

I

To um the public art review committee um and the council voted unanimously to do so,.

I

um And the request was: was really um it's a referral because there's a question of is this:.

I

A piece of public art: if it's a piece of public art, then what should the city do with? It is really.

I

And, and that's really what the council wants to know, you know ultimately so um so we just want an.

I

Opinion from this committee and recommendations, if you believe it's it's a work of public art,.

G

So uh chris chris and I talked about this and um I think both of both she and I are.

G

Willing to prepare a response back to the city council, in which we would do a draft memorandum.

G

Then we would send it to sean and he would distribute it to the rest of the committee.

G

And then we want would like hearing, but I'm just trying to simplify it so that there's.

G

Some document to react to, rather than everybody, having to come up with a an idea and a set of.

G

Recommendations and then everybody can weigh in on it and then we'll finalize it we'll try.

G

To reach concessions, consensus and then send it to the city council. Does that sound yep and I.

D

Think I might have jumped the gun, but um came up with a recommendation or idea that I shared.

D

Through sean, thank you very much but again new to the committee wasn't sure if that was the right.

D

Approach, but it was inspired to do so so had done that to me this, the this is a really important.

C

Opportunity reinforce the definition of public art that is found.

C

In the ordinance and in the guidelines and which says public, our works are meant to be enduring.

C

Original artworks of the highest quality and craftsmanship, I mean that's the first sentence.

C

um You know it obviously goes on, but I think that by defining it doesn't mean that things.

C

Aren't valuable if they're, not public art or that they don't have a place in the public realm, but.

C

um I think we want to, as a committee really be real clear about what fits into the public.

C

Art as the ordinance that we're working under and what might be something else.

G

Right, and so we would, I think that we would, when we're drafting the response, would look.

G

To the what the ordinance says and then see how it dovetails in with the ordinance.

G

And also these valuation criteria um and then then come up with a recommendation.

G

And even if it turns out that we, we say that this doesn't meet the definition of public art.

G

um It doesn't mean that there's it's, you know it's an it's something. That's.

G

Meaningless obvious has is freighted with a lot of meaning to lots of people um and then.

G

We could, you know, make a recommendation to create something that respond to that.

D

That makes sense. Thank you sounds like a good plan, so I'll read here.

E

I was curious about the whole back story on this and I wanted to ask this in a question in our one.

E

Of our minutes left, but I got scolded for like having discussion in a public forum so so anyway,.

E

So I googled I googled, it says, can you so this is? Can you still do love locks in paris, so the.

E

Context was that there were so many locks on one of the bridges that 45 tons of fence of of fencing.

E

Fell into the sun, so um so the point is, ours was the ones that place where lovebirds could express.

E

There are more for each other by placing heavy metal locks on the bridge. It is now forbidden by.

E

Law and controlled by the local police authority to place a love lock on the famous bridge.

E

And and apparently they used to throw people to throw away the key in it right so and you.

B

Look at our country's divorce rate. I think it's yeah. I don't know that it's public art, I think.

E

It's public, I think it's public demonstration right, which is a different conversation right.

E

I I don't know, but it could become public art if we wanted to well. I think I mean we have a.

F

History, I mean I mean, look at what happened after 9 11 with the stuff that was all on.

E

The fencing we have a we, you know, look at car accidents along the highway. We have a a strong.

E

Desire to remember and honor people- and we had strong feelings for him and I'll leave it at that.

E

um But we have a process yeah. Hopefully we can come up with a senator um recommendations that.

G

Everybody can we can reach consensus on and then we can send it back.

G

And I I don't want to- I don't want to spend a lot of time belaboring. It was.

G

Make the recommendation and then send it back to the city council.

G

G

Chris, you want to um you, you prepared that memorandum.

G

Store um at the at our last meeting after we had the discussion with margo uh kate suggested that.

C

We might memorialize that discussion in a a memo that could become a memo of understanding between.

C

um Our committee and the historic district commission, and so I tried to draft something that.

C

I think would would you know, picked up the things that margot said and would characterize kind of.

C

How we ended up the discussion? Our thinking is after discussion and hearing uh changes that.

C

You all might suggest for this that we would uh provide it to peter britz, as the planning director.

C

uh With a suggestion that you know it be discussed with the with the htc and again.

C

I think we all thought that we should pilot this. We should see how it works out that we.

C

Don't want to go to procedural guidelines or ordinance or anything like that at this point.

C

But that we would have kind of a memo of how we might work together on this and subsequently.

C

um Kate, uh I think, can add to this because there's been some discussion of.

C

Signs and the difference between signs and public art, which is where the htc confusion often comes.

C

In so apparently, there's work in progress on that that I believe this dovetails with, but.

C

Maybe we should hear from kate before we then see what people would like to do with this memo.

I

um And I I'm involved in this in a roundabout way, because I was asked by a fellow counselor.

I

Who normally handles land use to look into the sign ordinance? um Because their committee.

I

Doesn't have time to do it and usually the conflict that we have that occurs.

I

Around the sign ordinance in at the htc or at zoning board is around art. Is it? Is it a sign or.

I

Is it art, so um I approached the city to to start that discussion um of how do we? How do we address.

I

The sign ordinance and make sure it's clear what is art, um and so um in those discussions.

I

um I think that you know generally we're happy with this memorandum exchange. This is a very.

I

Good place to start, um there are potentially some other steps that also could be taken. I remember.

I

um Our planning director planning sustainability director peter britt, saying that maybe he would.

I

Consider like putting a check box somewhere on an application someone, so someone could request.

I

A pre-review by the public art review committee so that it comes with uh so a work, comes with an.

I

Opinion before that review process starts at htc or zoning board, and I've I'm just starting these.

I

Discussions with the legal team, so I asked um our senior staff attorney jane ferrini to come.

I

Today and to share thoughts, um I believe she's there, so it might be worthwhile hearing from her.

M

Hello, everyone. um Needless to say, we have examined the sign ordinance. It doesn't just.

M

um It doesn't just live in our zoning ordinance, it lives in chapter eight as well, and um the.

M

Legal department has had several conversations for different reasons, not just this particular reason.

M

um On the sign ordinance and have determined that it definitely needs work, so tell you that, yes,.

F

Because it definitely needs work, so we are going to be addressing that very soon, possibly uh just.

M

A memo to the city council with a recommendation, um but it's layered, you know it's layered. It's.

M

Nuanced, uh there are first amendment issues as well, so what we want to make sure is that um this.

M

Committee gets to do its good work, you know, and to do what it needs to do and our our land use boards.

M

Get to do their good work and do what they need to do without one. This committee may be potentially.

M

Trying to suggest changes that aren't integrated into a holistic look at the signed, ordinance and.

M

So um that is on our to-do list, so we just wanted to report back to this committee that.

M

um We we certainly um understand you know that distinction between you know, art and signage.

M

um But that, looking at the ordinance as a whole, we definitely need to make some amendments to it.

M

So I just wanted to do you have a timeline that you're working with in terms of when you think.

G

They might I don't, but I know that it's it's it's moving very quickly because we're getting.

M

Questions from not just this committee and not just our land use boards, but from other issues.

M

That's come up special about events permits, and you know what kind of signage it is so in.

M

The last month, it's really come to the front of the list right, I don't have a specific time, but.

M

I know it's sooner, it's it's sooner rather than later. That's kind of that's second right now.

C

Okay, so I think the question then to the group is cut, are you do you feel we're ready to.

C

um Send peter britz um this draft so that he can share it with hdc. Do you have suggestions for it.

C

um Qualms about it.

G

I guess the question is: has everybody seen this oh well, that would that would be a reason to.

G

Be concerned, um I didn't know that you see when I get something I send it out the same.

J

Day so this word public art review record. No, no! This is a memory room. This is my. This is my ish.

E

Sounds like people have not received it, so I think in um in light of that, we should uh probably table.

G

This and tell everybody set a chance to read it and then come back with um their response.

G

Chris, what yeah, because I do believe sean attached it as a.

C

I as a an attachment to I'm wondering if everybody's getting all the right emails.

K

Yeah I got it, but I do you did get it when it's yes, I did, but I want to state that communication.

K

In general has been very confusing right in in what we're getting yeah. I gotta notice that.

G

This meeting was canceled tonight I didn't know what that was all about. It was somewhere because.

K

I found it, but it was not true. It was an email from clearly clearly it hasn't been distributed.

G

um To everybody, so I don't think we can possibly take take it up. Let's, let's table that until.

G

um A future meeting so that everybody can see it yeah do we need chris. Do you feel like this needs.

K

To include some addressing of signs as we you know before I heard jane I did, but then after I heard.

C

Jane, uh I thought maybe it not, because um the sign is, the sign issue is obviously larger than.

C

Than this, so that that would we'll just leave it alone and leave it alone until.

C

That works its way through that that's kind of how I'm thinking about it now: listen: okay, okay,.

G

All right, we'll just table that for now um discussed and vote on a cip request um for and.

G

It's due on september 15th, um previously chris had pointed out that we, uh this the city had put in.

G

um A an amount of money on an annual basis for street trees, for example, um and there's.

G

No reason why we couldn't request an annual allocation in the capital improvement program.

G

For public art, so we start building up the trust fund yep um so that we will have a significant.

G

Revenue source eventually- um and it can be- you know- relatively modest amount. Twenty five.

G

Thousand dollars or fifty thousand dollars, or something like that, I don't know what people's.

G

Feeling is about that. I think this. When back in the 70s, we used to put five thousand dollars.

G

In for street trees, but that's the long sense, I'm sure much higher than that. um So.

G

Rather than try to do it just at a one-shot deal, I think it makes sense to build it. Build.

G

It up on an ongoing basis. Yeah, if you want us to do yeah yep. Does anybody have a sense.

G

Of what makes sense in terms of um kate, do you have any uh recommendations for that.

I

um I don't have any um immediate recommendations on what would be ideal is what I would say.

I

Clearly, you probably don't want to hit the fifty thousand dollar mark because then it's uh you.

I

Don't want to hit a point where they're thinking that they actually need to borrow the funds um so.

I

You want to stay at a lower level um yeah. I would consider something that people probably wouldn't.

I

Object to you know would be somewhere in the 15 to 25 000 range.

C

10 for cemeteries every year, 25 for land acquisitions, so that that makes sense, kate,.

C

And we're at forty thousand a year right now for cemeteries. Just so everyone knows.

I

um But that's because of years of of neglect of not doing it, yeah.

F

I was going to say just to follow up with chris said that um toward the end of art speak, it was.

L

Being allocated fifteen thousand dollars a year off that was down from 20, I I believe.

L

20 to 25. right so that that's something the city hasn't. You know the city did every.

L

Year, just to manage the public art so right, that's that line item is gone. We could bring.

G

um What would I would suggest, maybe twenty five thousand s yeah? Okay, let's recommend that.

G

um To the city council, for inclusion in the capital improvement program, um for those of you.

G

Know that don't know a lot about it. Basically, the first year is the capital budget and that's what.

G

Gets funded and then the program is a six-year program and the out years are, you know, sort of.

G

Tentative allocations, but they don't actually get voted on until it becomes capital budget. So.

G

um I would suggest we put it in all six years and first year become the capital budget.

C

um And I think, maybe uh suggest putting it in the line where there's public.

C

Private, so that we also acknowledge that private donations may augment the 25 000.

G

I presume that it would go into the trust fund. Would it not, I think so, yeah. I trust one. Okay.

H

Chris, can you uh clarify something for me, so are you saying that if a private donor gave twenty.

H

Five thousand dollars in a specific year that the city would not give twenty five thousand.

H

Dollars to no, but that we would acknowledge that the public contribution we would recommend would.

C

Be 25 and then we would also, I think we could put some estimates in for private contributions.

C

So that we're illustrating that this comes from multiple sources and that's a separate line in.

C

The cip, so you have the the public and then the the the private contribution it just as.

C

A way to I mean I honestly acknowledge what has happened in the past, that much of what.

C

Has been done has been private, so it augments um almost doesn't quote match, but it augments.

C

And allows you to do some things quicker, uh build up the money quicker. Thank you.

G

All right, um the final item under updates is.

G

Update on referral process with land use boards, councilor cook.

I

And I I pretty much said what I was thinking earlier, but.

I

um Since we're not moving forward yet with the memorandum I would suggest it might still be worth.

I

um Reaching out to peter ritz and see if he has had any ideas or thoughts on adding that.

I

um Request for review option um that check box on applications and the reason I'd say this is.

I

That I had it has been brought to my attention that there are several several projects coming.

I

Forward that have art public facing art elements in them and um I have already um been contacted.

I

By a few applicants about how cumbersome the process is and the concerns about going through.

I

The hdc process with a piece of public art, so I I wonder to that end if it would be appropriate.

C

Maybe for sean to talk with peter about this memo that we're doing just to oh as a way to alert in.

C

That we have something that will be coming to him that responds to what kate is talking about.

J

Sure I can do that and counselor cook. I just have a question because you use the term public facing.

J

Art so we're talking about we're talking about art on private property that is public facing.

J

So it's not my my as I'm learning here. Our public art is art on public property. This is.

J

Art on private property, like to your term public, facing that's different right. It is.

I

um The reason I'm using that terminology is that um we have defined public art in the.

I

Ordinance to be on public property- um or that is that is the ordinance was designed for the.

I

Public art review committee to review art on public property or art for our public spaces.

I

And um we want to make sure that that they understand in planning that there is.

I

Clearly, you know an element of public to art, that's even on private property.

I

And that this committee has a role in that as well or can contribute.

I

In in assisting with review, in that case yeah, uh you know for another discussion, but I think.

C

That needs to be changed in the ordinance because nobody in the rest of the world defines public.

C

Art that way, as only on public property. So I think especially if this committee is going.

C

To be charged with helping to review public art, that's on private property. We need to get that.

C

Clarified that would be helpful yeah, and I think we want to be very cognizant of the fact that.

G

um The city has already an extremely burdensome land use decision decision-making process and I.

G

Don't want to get in the position that we're going to have yet another layer on the whole process. I.

G

Think that we want to be in a situation where it's replacing, if, if we're going to do it, we replace.

G

Some step and take take that out we're not adding yet another layer, yeah decision-making process.

G

And I know it excruciating: that's where the the pre-review could work really well.

C

That it it takes that place and there's also a possibility of adding some language to the.

I

Public art review committee's ordinance around if, if at any time, an applicant in the process.

I

um Wants a review for the public art review committee that they could request one so so.

I

That it's it's not that they're required to have one, but if they get into a situation.

I

Where they're concerned that they're not going to get that that things are not going to go.

I

The way they think they are as far as public art versus sign or that they could request a.

I

Review from public art review committee to to make that at least a recommendation back.

G

um Anything anybody else would like to um okay.

G

All right next steps, um city, council, referral of pierce, island, public art.

F

That's something you have then on or I do not okay right. Well, it's it's just that uh the city manager.

I

um Deposited the money in the public, art trust.

I

For uh the pierce island wastewater treatment, treatment plant so there's a.

I

Hundred and fifty thousand dollars that's been deposited in the public, art trust.

I

um For this committee, then, to initiate a project um related to that capital project.

C

It's terrific yeah, um it's it's as a result of the public. uh This surgery.

G

With the upper limit of 15 million, so that's where we get the 150 000 from yeah.

G

And uh it remains to be seen where that we're.

G

Obviously not going to put it inside the uh treatment plan.

G

Because in pierce island in his fortree island and the immediate.

G

Vicinity uh those seem to be like logical places for that to occur.

C

Okay, I think- uh and we can discuss this further but uh a first which possibly the.

C

Landscape architects in our committee would want to take on is really thinking of that whole area.

C

And where there might be sites for public art before we do anything.

C

Else I mean it's kind of like what needs to happen with the bojango gateway park, so that.

C

That the idea of you know where some possibilities are before we even begin to enter this discussion.

C

This for a while, okay, all right, let's just let.

E

This unfold, yep yeah, I don't think, there's anything I mean if if there is a plan for.

E

Improvements for fortree islands, it's pretty beat yep, it's very. You know it's even worse. uh So if.

C

There's another part of the. I just got part of the master plan yeah there isn't that's what I.

E

Thought I just have never seen it. I have no idea what's going on out there, that is, that would be a.

E

Better context, to start with, to then see where you know where that proposes like, where might there be.

E

Trails might be where would be overlooked so, where you know stuff like that, so do we need.

L

To create a uh our first attempt work plan here for our next meeting or future meeting. Yes, yes,.

C

To at least lay out the steps.

G

um Final item under next steps is committee procedures and rules of.

G

Opera operation is that something that's something you put in chris? um Do you have.

G

um Comments on that. Well, as we were thinking about this meeting and looking at the various.

C

Places where we should vote etc, recognize that you know every committee has a short list of.

C

How they do business- and we really there are a few things in the ordinance that tell us about.

C

That, but we don't really have that we haven't, we don't really have those procedures. You know.

C

Are we going to vote what what the quorum is? All of that doesn't have to be elaborate, but just so.

C

That the public knows and that we as members, know what to expect, um and that seemed like.

C

Something that a couple people could take on to just draft what they think uh we should have.

C

Just for operating rules as a committee, chris, are you talking about creating a charter, a committee.

L

Charter, you could call it a charter sure, um but just the basics, for how we would operate.

C

You know we've kind of started to feel our way through things, but it seems like it's time to.

C

Just formalize that we haven't been taking formal votes, for example, but we may, as we get into more.

C

Of these things, I think we'll want to we'll want to do that so specifying things like that.

G

um Why don't people think about it um between now and the next meeting, and then we can maybe have a.

G

Small task force of two or three people that would be willing to to take that on as an assignment.

G

And kate, we can get from you what some of the other committees use right, gladly yeah.

B

Thank you, okay, um we're at a sagamore bell, and so I'm sorry we missed the the.

G

Sagamore bell is there anybody would. um Would you like to comment sure.

N

So I have some good news and I have some not so good news and I'll start with the good news.

N

um We had the bell appraised and that was donated, which was great, and it.

N

Was appraised for nine thousand five hundred dollars and terence.

N

um Parker gave us a concept which was very simple and elegant and um look great.

N

um But the not so good news is that the donor is getting cold feet. So I I'm meeting with her again.

N

um On friday uh afternoon this friday to talk her through, she had some concerns.

N

um About uh the bell being outside- and um you know about what would happen to the bell, you know so.

N

um We're kind of working through those- I did some research that I've shared with her and we'll.

N

See you know I I don't. I want her to be totally comfortable with it. I think there's some emotional.

N

Things going on too um with the connection with the val. So that's the um update on that. So.

N

If we get the answer from her that she does want to go forward with it, we're all set to go right.

G

um I I share the donor's concern a little bit um myself, um because that is an unsupervised location.

G

And while it would be very enticing for kids or anybody to be ringing, that bell incessantly.

G

um It it, you know, that's the first thing that goes. Is they clap it? Just you know it gets destroyed.

F

um If it's not maintain, um so um I mean maybe maybe one way to think about it is.

G

um Does it belong inside somewhere rather than outside.

G

Just something to consider yeah she mentioned that and mentioned you know pos. Somebody had suggested.

N

Possibly the library or um city hall right. So uh what was an option? It just seems so perfect.

N

um Being right, you know being right near the albacore and her father was.

N

So involved with that, and so it seemed like the perfect tie-in and the maritime theme, but.

N

um You know I want to make sure it's going to be protected and right. She's.

B

Gonna be able to work, you have some kind of a visitor center or something.

B

That's when I was working on interpretation in the experience at the alcor yeah, I don't know.

B

Thank you all right. Thank you. Thank you. um Do we have any money that wants to make public comments.

G

Now I'm karen. um The next meeting is september 27th, but.

N

Let's make it quick, um I guess public comment. I don't know if I should say this, but.

L

um You just state your name for the record. Yes, ernie, green slade,.

N

um With the p h, 400 uh legacy subcommittee, and um I just wanted to mention you know- we met.

N

With the group at the last meeting, but I just wanted to mention that we did send out the rfp.

N

um For the initial, the sieges chen sculpture- and we received many many proposals and.

N

um You know we've let the artist know that we'd like to keep those on hold. So just so, you know.

N

That we have some incredible concepts; proposals that have been submitted for sculpture in the.

N

um In the behanco gateway park, maritime sculpture, garden, so just something to keep in mind. There are.

N

Resources available um like a digital library, is it all digital submissions or are they? Yes? I have.

N

A google drive with everything on it and um yeah the review. Yes, I could, I could you know there was.

N

A review team that um went through the concepts, I'm forgetting, I think there was something like.

N

60 and they selected seven artists to speak to and then they selected three top um projects, but.

N

There really are some amazing things in there and it's just something to keep in mind.

N

Some other things go out there. There are six to eight pieces.

N

um Public works, as suggested, would would fit in there. Is that something you could.

D

Send out to us a link to that. I I don't have that we shouldn't make that public.

C

Ernie without permission from those artists yeah, I I think um I I wouldn't share it with the public.

N

um You know I did say to them: we'd like to keep those ideas for consideration and one artist.

N

Didn't want to be part of that, but everybody else I guess implicitly agreed to be part of.

N

That I don't know if I'd be, I mean if I, if it was shared with this group, it would not.

N

Be you couldn't share it with anybody else, so I I don't know, maybe we're not at that point yet. Yeah.

C

You're really serious about it and uh if we could meet in pairs and like have a document, I.

C

And share it with this group, I believe it becomes a pope document, so.

N

I'm doing that, but um it's good to know, I'm just letting you know that it's it's available there.

N

And um you know if, if you wanted to explore, explore that further, we could okay, great.

G

um I'm sorry, I have a hard stop. I have to leave.

B

um Yeah we need if we want to continue chris, can take over. Otherwise, I think we can.

G

Future items on the agenda, so maybe we can, we can.

G

um Get the minutes out so we get so organized they're done. I did you. Do the.

H

um Do we have to have a formal motion to adjourn motion? Yes, ellen moved seconds all in favor.

G