City of York Council, UK Licensing & Regulatory Committee, 11 Feb 2019

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From YouTube: Gambling, Licensing & Regulatory Committee, 11 February 2019

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AGENDA (To view individual agenda items click on the links below)
1. Declarations of Interest 00:03:48
2. Minutes 00:03:56
3. Public Participation 00:04:07
6. Update Report - Private Hire Licensing 00:31:40
4. Statement of Licensing Policy & Cumulative Impact Assessment 01:00:57
5. Renewal of Sex Establishment Licence for Upstairs (Mansion), 53-55 Micklegate, York, YO1 6LJ 01:38:05

For full agenda, attendance details and supporting documents visit:
https://democracy.york.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=606&MId=10531

A

Good afternoon members settle down sorry Phil, sorry for the delay. Thank you. Everyone for attending welcome to this meeting of the gambling licensing and regulatory committee. A couple of items of housekeeping the facilities are just outside this door on the left. I do not believe we're do a fire alarm, so if it goes off, is for real I'm just going to reorder the agenda slightly as well, hopefully, to make the meeting run a bit smoother. So we're moving item six and item four around so we'll deal with the update report and private higher licensing.

A

First after public participation, members declarations of interests do members have any additional declarations. Nope minutes of the previous meeting, we're happy to sign those off. Anyone got any comments.

B

A

All right, I'll sign them after the meeting, which means we move on to item three public participation. We have quite a long list of public speakers. Each speaker will have three minutes. I've been asked not to give the the 30-second reminder so I won't do. However, when we do get to the three minutes. I will ask that you finish speaking and I will make you aware. So the first speaker that we have public speaker is miss Gwen, Schwimmer.

C

Thank You, chair I, like many of us, were shocked in the spring of last year that the licensing team had failed in their duties in checking the renewal of taxi drivers, DBS checks, I recall staff, giving themselves a very generous six months to fix this, since that six months was up. We have already had one committee meeting which staffers cancelled despite the committee's objections, and now we have a second where the expected item has not yet appeared. We remain in the dark two months after the end of the very generous deadline the staff gave themselves.

C

Can we know today? Can we know here today what is going on and who is responsible for this silence and half the staff. Finally got this sorted second point. Regarding another inexplicable delay, I was staggered to see no reference to the barristers opinion. The council was supposed to Commission before Christmas on the uber affair. That advice would normally take a couple of days, but now we're nearly two months later. This looks like the staff or someone is deliberately slowing things down. This affects the drivers, livelihoods and our safety chair.

C

What is the delay and what is happening? I am pulling my hair out with this delay. It's wrong on every level. One has to ask who benefits in and how, in these delaying tactics, I noticed finally chair, because I can find no comfort in these matters being reported to a future committee as it seems there was no forward plan on this agenda either. Thank you.

A

Thank you, miss Swinburne. Your comments will be noted. Next speaker, we have has withdrawn so that the speaker for that is mr. Colin Metcalfe. You have three minutes. Mr. Metcalfe.

B

A

The middle button.

D

Officer led counsel. Last time, I spoke full council meeting, I talked about the cell facility Council that we have going on in New York and all they cancelled the December meeting, which the trade in the chair gia felt to be of utmost importance. The officers decided that it was unimportant. So I asked you to keep an eye on these officers. I hope you have been doing that and checking out your position.

A

Just pause the time sorry counselor Richardson's check.

E

Here clearly, can you come and start again and can you speak into the arm of the mic, so it's easier for you to okay, the.

A

Point is you can start again, I'll restart toilet, no more interruptions. Please thank the college's mr. Vikon just trying to speak clearly I appreciate it. I'm.

D

Trying to have what Sakai had throat cancer so on so um apologies. Is it too old or I.

D

Don't know I hope you have been doing that and checking out your position as counselors. The decisions are yours to be made because you voted into your position by the residents of York your constituents.

D

These officer are not decision-makers, they are advisors, we better all round if they remembered that they should remember that they are in their paws because they passed an interview not because they voted in by the citizens of York Jarrod Korea QC is probably known in Westminster and throughout the UK is one of the most respected licensing lawyer in the UK. So officially you're standing on over working in legal in Europe can be ignored by your council offices. Then you must also say that maybe they've grown a little too big for their boots.

D

Council offices have chosen the most flawed port case from 1997 to support their legal position. In response to this, we shall introduce you to many more recent judgements that wiped their court case off the face. These council offices are reluctant to take on over I think we would all agree that that is understandable, but that does not make it acceptable.

D

Uber are working illegally all over this country and anyone and everyone is scared to take them on Uber's legal team up north now been going around worrying and local councils legal teams to scare them and manipulate them into thinking that they cannot be challenged because they have so much money. They cannot be beaten, but they can be beaten. Remember that's a backhaul industries in the seventies and eighties.

D

Nobody dared say at the moment because they were too rich, so they thought that were too. They were too powerful to be challenged. Excuse me, but someone did take them on and now they have to comply. Ooh I, just like these toxic tobacco companies and need to be stopped. It only takes one council to do it, then the rest will follow. Let your baby that council and take down this faceless, non-compliant law-breaking bully over company because we are not scared of them. Thank you.

A

Thank you miss make up. Your comments are noted. The next speaker is mr. Allen Rolla.

F

Do I have to use the microphone or would you be better?

F

A

Need the microphone for the webcast? So if you can't.

F

Read say appreciate.

A

F

Rally f3 girl with it, then right operator triple license rural and controlled district.

F

These terms are bandied about within taxi licensing all the time, but I think that it is really important to unpack them here to try to help you in understanding these terms in relation to us, as they are very important and hold different meanings in the taxi world to the usual meanings applied elsewhere, an operator is the company that holds the operator's license and gives private hire drivers their work. The company that holds the operator's license in York, for instance, must have a manned office within York's control. District.

F

The control district is an area of York that York taxi licensing control, as they are the ones who decide who is fit and proper to hold this operator's license within their own geographical area within the pre-agreed geographical area, York taxi licensing set down regulations and restrictions, alongside those already set in tablets of stone by central government, for example. The government sets no national standard on privacy, glassing taxes, but York asserts that the glass in the back windows must allow 50 percent of light through the operator is not the driver who is operating.

F

The car, unlike a factory worker who operates machinery operator, is a very specific term. An operator controls the jobs that a private hire driver is allocated because every single job that a private hire driver receives must come through their operator to be legal in York. This operator must hold the license in New York. They must only allocate jobs to private hire drivers that also hold a your badge, and those drivers must be driving York licensed and York plated vehicles.

F

If all three of those are in place, the operator driver and car are all registered in York and the operator only gives out jobs to their drivers when their jobs are taken in York, then, and only then do they fulfill the triple licensing rule. If you're much it doesn't matter. If your operator holds an operator's license in Cardiff and all their cars and drivers are Cardiff licensed, they cannot come and work in York because their triple license is not enforced outside of their own licensed area of Cardiff.

F

Since the 2015 deregulation Act, however, a cab if company can subcontract work to a york company, but he cannot operate in york exactly like uber are doing and operating here illegally, and why are they being allowed to do so? Because your council officers refuse to challenge them? Thank you.

A

Thank you, mr. Ono, your comments are noted. The next speaker is mr. Steve Nelson.

G

Thank you. The council's legal petition is as long as the triple aces rule is enforced licenses from all the same authority that can undertake a journey anywhere in the country, and you have mentioned it. That is frog councils. Legal opinion is wrong. It is true the driver may undertake a journey that starts or finishes completely outside of his license borough. This has never been in dispute, but there is a restriction on where that vehicle is when it received its booking instruction from its operator, justice, Hickenbottom states.

G

In paragraph 8 of the blue line be Newcastle case. The operation is geographically fixed in the operator's license in area. That area must be where the operators premises are located, bookings made and which vehicles are dispatched either prosecuted under section 36 1a. The wrong section of the Act with the wrong interpretation of the word operate, not an uncommon mistake by council officers.

G

The Lord Justice alludes very clearly in his judgment to the facts that I feared and prosecuted under 46 one day they would have added results, just as our legal advice from Jericho area says, and if a their officers had possibly the driver under section 36, one a and B, they would have secured two more convictions and if an operator cannot met provision in an area, it is not licensed for how can I driver accept that booking from the operator? In other words, you cannot do it.

G

No Justice Kennedy after explaining what section five six one a B, C, D and E mint said this in Myrtle and Carter the Bromsgrove. It is clear. The licenses apply only within the control district of the issuing council apply only within a prod. A vehicle can only accept a job while seizing Saudis licensed area. Nowhere else, thank you.

A

Thank You mr. Nelson, your comments are noted. The next speaker is mr. mark Jennings.

H

Thank you. Can you hear me driven a long way today? That is three minutes, so please bear with me. Alright licenses only apply within the control district, very powerful words coming from Lord Justice Kennedy I have here a judgment that prosecuted at an operator five times in 2013 for operating vehicles in one area while being licensed in another.

H

Excuse me, the defense barrister for that case was mr. Philip Colvin QC, the same barrister that represents uber and the same Barriss. That has told this counsel. Uber have the right to run mr. Colvin lost that case.

H

His client was fine, two twenty two and a half thousand pounds for doing exactly what uber are doing here today in York Lord Justice Latham told Cherie Blair the losing defense barrister in shanks versus North Tyneside that if one youth, her construction in her construction of section was 46, one B and E of the Act one could operate anywhere on one license the country she was wrong. He told her that would drive a coat and horses through the legislation.

H

He went on to say that the authorities responsible for granting licenses should have the ability to exercise full control over the operation of private hire vehicles within their area. Yoke is used in legal opinion from just one. This will not stand up to legal scrutiny.

H

We have four law justices, six justices from six High Court cases, all saying that an operator or driver cannot operate or receive jobs outside of their licensing area.

H

The case authorities that answer the question is over legal here in your overwhelming. No, your counts, along with 292 other license. Authorities do not want a legal battle with a billion-dollar company like uber, that is obvious, but is it right, and is it fair that you, a licensing authority, refuse to regulate an illegal private hire operation in your control district? That poses a safeguarding threat? The questions has to be asked. Are you failing to regulate? Are you failing to safeguard?

H

Are your officers leaving your counsel, opens a prosecution for failing to safeguard or regulates? Are your officers, leaving your counsel open to civil claims, one low level prosecution for one driver waiting in an area he's not licensed for an expectation of a job prosecuted under Section, 46, 1 a.m. B would result this entire situation I strongly. Advise you, the members of this council, to take back control of your control district. Thank you.

A

Thank You mr. Jennings, your comments are noted. The next speaker is drew Thompson.

I

Who's already I'm right, Thank You, Jay regulators called as a regulatory body. Our elected members may stand liable for the failures Matt Jennings mentions, but this isn't. The only problem York has with the 2014 regulator's code set out by the government. I wouldn't like to see problems such as having one of the people that a complaint could be raised about being the contacts for the complaint, as is currently showing on the City of York Council website.

I

This is in contravention of rule 2.3 of the code, which states that a regulating officer cannot handle an appeal against them. There is also the failure of our licensing section to finish the DBS checks. There are people in this room who were told to get theirs done months ago, yet they still haven't been asked to take them into hazal Court. Worse, there are people who asked to get the certificate yet have told us that they were informed that bringing them in wouldn't be necessary if nothing had changed.

I

Another failure is the very first rule in the court which reads: regulators should carry out their activities in a way that supports those they regulate to comply and grow. The officers decision to allow uber to operate unchecked he's still undermining your decision to remove them from this city. Tens of millions of pounds a year have been taken out of our economy. Out of the businesses you regulate out of local people's pockets and it's most definitely not supporting those reregulate. As Mac alluded to earlier.

I

There are groups up and down the country looking to claim against regulate three bodies which are acting con to the interests of locals under this cord I'm, a your president, a taxpayer licensed by City of York as a private hired driver I bought in the local elections. I am proud and respect the place. I live and working, but I fear that York Council meets all the above criteria for prosecution. I hope that you, our elected members, can write your officers wrong so to ensure that you are not in line for one of these prosecutions.

I

A

Thank You mr. Thomson, your comments are noted. The next speaker is Tony green.

J

Good afternoon enforcement I come here today to ask this committee to use its influence with the public protection department. To insist, public safety is ensured by the proper implementation of effective enforcement enforcement is an ongoing issue. There is of major concerns for our members and to taxi drivers generally. Excuse me.

J

Currently, our licensing department undertakes sporadic enforcement operations both independently and jointly with their West Yorkshire partners. The level and frequency of these operations are wholly inadequate and proven to be ineffective. Wais there is a place for vehicle checks. The embassy should surely be on touting implying for hire. The reasons for this are when a member of the public steps into a car that hasn't been booked that vehicles insurance is immediately null and void, and because the drivers doing this are almost exclusively out-of-town drivers.

J

Should any incidents take place while in that car, because there is no record of a booking because the car or driver aren't registered in York the chances of finding that vehicle or driver are incredibly slim.

J

We know touting imply for hire a wide spread in York, particularly on weekend nights in the early hours of the morning, who perceived to have established their own ranks in certain parts of the city that were openly pick up from ranks when they can and will park opposite ranks and beckon people over and offer rides for cash when they think it's safe to do so. They are able to do this because the lack of enforcement excuse me, we need more enforcement. Our enforcement team is down from four to one.

J

Current enforcement is mostly in the hands of local trade. At last count, 83% of complaints against out-of-town drivers came from within the York trade. This shouldn't be the case. We are being asked to put our hands in our pockets once again and bare. Yet more price arises on our license fees with some quite substantial percentage increases. Surely we should in return they expect our face are used to ensure a safer environment for our customers and drivers.

J

I can say on behalf of my colleagues that we take seriously our duty of care towards our customers, but it's widely felt that Public Protection is failing in each duty of care to both the traveling public, by its lack of enforcement and to your registered drivers, because it is failing to bring under control the free-for-all. It is created by its failure to control the behavior of out-of-town drivers and the subsequent hostile atmosphere.

J

Our drivers are expected to endure stop using taxi licensing as a cash cow, stop lowering standards for new drivers and carry out effective enforcement.

A

Thank You mr. green. The next speaker is Wendy love day.

K

Thank You chair York vs. Leeds. Can a York private hire company send their drivers on mass to sit around in Leeds waiting for work without holding a Leeds operators, licence York, say yes, Leeds say no, let's examine their reasons. York say yes, because there are other firms doing this. The only other firm that I know that are doing this is uber and they're doing it illegally. But your council officers are encouraging us to do the same thing in a neighboring City.

K

Why is it because they have chosen their position and rather than admit that they are wrong and move forward in the correct direction? They are digging their heels in and sticking with their original stance, regardless of whatever other evidence or logic against their position is given to them. The trade find their approach, frustrating obstructive and blinkered Leeds say no, because it is illegal. Leeds, council officers clearly understand the law and hold an opposing view. I spoke at length with Leeds City Council operating operations manager. Mr.

K

de Placido, who fully supported by his executive officer, firmly stated that for a York company to make a provision for hire in Leeds without holding elites, operator's license is illegal and that they would prosecute them without question leads, have applying for hire policy in place and apply the law without hesitation. This policy not only enables leads to prosecute but ensures that they do they prosecute all non Leeds private hire drivers that sit in Leeds if they come into their City without a pre-booked job.

K

The exact same thing that almost all oba drivers are doing right now in York. Leeds officers do not want their drivers working in York, but it is York's responsibility to enforce this, not Leeds. If your counsel are allegedly part of the same West Yorkshire York, Enforcement Alliance as Leeds, how come they have such opposing views? And why are we not prosecuting Leeds uber drivers as Leeds would rightly prosecute York drivers. If a Leeds company sent a hundred drivers to York to sit in our streets waiting for work, would you all prosecute them?

K

Is it just you bethat get away with it? I think it is. Please question your council officers in correct legal position as it supports uber working in our city, which flies in the face of your decision not to realize since them. So who is right? Is it York or is it leads? My money's on leads.

A

Thank You mr. love day, the final speaker is Mike Palmer.

L

Thank You chair, you've, heard from a number of our trade members today on topics such as DBS checks, the meaning of the word operator, the duties your officers have not fulfilled, which leave our council open to actions from central government or the public. Our allocation of enforcement officers, which needs an overhaul. Our stance on illegal vehicles, working our streets unchecked versus our neighbour. We as a trade United, something other towns and cities aren't yet lucky enough to do- will always give you information. When asked.

L

We've had meetings with officers where we've been told not we're not important enough to listen to. We've been told that there's nothing we can do to help. We have offered free rides health, the enforcement, a move to where they are needed, as incidents happen, but this has been refused. You have facts and figures piled into reports, but they glaringly omit pertinent facts about how the cab trade you regulate are being sidelined to favor, a toxic company which is out to make our business an unqualified minimum-wage.

L

Unregulated mess. I ask you if these things are best left in the hands of these officers or if it's time for you to change some policies to make these decisions? Yours, our public should be able to get into a well-maintained car which is clean and tidy driven by a well-mannered and safe driver. Who knows the routes to take in York? This should be a matter of pride.

L

Uber need banishing from our city because they don't have suitable vehicles. They don't have local knowledge, they don't behave in a safe manner. Everything about uber in our city is either dangerous, illegal or against the interests of the businesses and owners you regulate. The number of complaints hasn't dropped, it has risen. Uber have been in the news again and again with that bad behavior. If the decision not to renew their license was yours, the decision to prosecute their drivers, ruber itself should be to your officers.

L

Do not want the work and they do not need to worry about accountability. You are the only ones that can be held accountable, so you must make the decision whether your council prosecute uber is not a decision that an officer should make it carries too much responsibility. It is a councilor level decision, even if it calls for policy change you, our elected members, must make this decision. Thank you.

A

Thank You mr. Palmer. That concludes public participation. So we'll move on to the substantive items of the agenda with the rejigging I've done. We've now got the update report on private highlights and seeing a believer map. Boxall is going to present the report.

M

Yes, Thank You chair. This update report is for your information. It was it sports here at the request of the chair, and it explains the council's position regarding the law relating to private, higher licensing and the ability of an operator and a driver to work outside the area within which they're licensed.

M

At present, the council, like most others in the country, considers the position to be as described in paragraph four, and that is this. Provided the three licenses required for an operator vehicle and driver have been issued by the same Authority, then the private hire vehicle can undertake journeys anywhere in England and Wales. That is irrespective of where the journey commences, the area through which the journey passes and ultimately the area where the journey ends, and that opinion comes from the case of a door--, District, Council and FRA. There's many other cases which establish that principle.

M

That said, on the 19th of November 2018, the private hire Association in York shared a legal opinion. It had obtained from Queen's Counsel, that argues, operators of outer town vehicles and their drivers are illegally operating. Here. It is important to stress that this is an alternative view that has not been tested in the courts.

M

Acting on that information, the council has instructed separate counsel to advise. We have acted on that information and leo Shambala ADIZ, who is a worker who was a well-respected barrister in this field and has been has been asked to provide an extensive advice note.

M

The council has asked upon his request that the opinion await outcomes of cases being taken by other authorities, particularly a case in Brighton and read in so that the advice note can have regard to these matters.

M

Seeking that independent counsel advice supports the council's priority to meet its statutory duties, and there are no other implications for this report. I'm happy to take any questions.

B

N

Glen George coming Thank You, chair just further to mr. box or the presentation of the report. What he said is is entirely accurate. Mr. Sharon all Hamby des excuse, my pronunciation was in the offices last week. The advice we anticipate will be ready by the end of this week or the beginning of next week. One of the reasons for the delay is as mr. box all as outlined as we were waiting the outcome of other cases parallel and knowledge escape system.

N

Most recent of those we have the reading case became available on Friday the judgment, so the advice from our independently instructed counsel, following on from the mr. Guerriero vice, will be available either at the end of this week or the beginning of next week.

A

Thank you, velvet 8, Glen I've got councillor Dave Taylor.

O

A

Thank You counselor, Richardson yeah.

E

If it comes back that it is correct that the driver can only come into the area, if there's a pre-booked situation and then should return back to their own licensing area, do we have enough staff to be able to actually instigate a wide-ranging investigation into the level that's reported by the drivers set to the left, or is it that we would find ourselves overwhelmed.

M

My view is that we'd have the staff to deal with it'd, be a relatively straightforward investigation, I think on the facts. If it came back that way and how.

E

Quickly, could that be implemented.

M

Well, investigation would obviously take the take its course. It's very difficult to predict, but I would have thought within months would be a typical time frame. Okay,.

E

A

Counselor Anne Reed thanks.

P

Jay, it was just only I, wasn't quite sure on these other cases that we're waiting what level they are are they are they challenges that the trade have taken to councils, or is it something that's going through? The court I was a bit about.

N

That judgment on Friday was the Administrative Court following an appeal from the magistrate's court, he's a High Court decision. It's.

P

Actually, it's actually going through the courts as opposed to yes, somebody challenging in the way that this this change of it right. Okay, it wasn't that clear on the papers thing.

A

Yeah, it is very confusing legal positions. I appreciate that counsel, pavlovic.

Q

It's just a further question on that point: the court cases are they in relation to the arguments that are being made in the taxi drivers opinion or are they? Are they relating to different different areas of licensing law?.

N

They are in relation to the same areas of licensing laws and the same principles and issues which referenced in mystic Boreas opinion are also the subject of the ability Gatien, which is g2, of course, so one of the reasons mr. Cohen on vidas 22-8 the act of these decisions as they are an informative to his own advice. There's difference between an opinion legal opinion or, albeit from a very senior lawyer, and settled law which emerges from judicial decisions in the courts, and we wanted to wait for the latter before our own advice was finalized.

N

That was the advice which the council, russain and.

Q

Just sorry Thank You chair and just just on that topic, so there's one going through the Court of Appeal. Can you give us any indication as to where the other cases are as far as as prep and how many will the.

N

Case well my understanding counterpart of a case that the most recent one was the reading case, which we received. The judgment on Friday and mr. sherrilyn beard has said he's now in a position to finalize advice. So.

Q

He can he can give you his opinion, based on that one case.

N

Yes, yes, that's good, well, I! Think, there's more than one care. I think that that and the the indication that we've had from him today is that his advice will be finalized and available to his eye by the end of this week or the beginning of next week. Thank.

Q

You can I just ask one more, thank you, and just on that topic dependent on the opinion and taking into account one of the submissions by the speakers who will make the decision in respect of how cyc then responds to it. Will it be an officer decision or will it be counsel there? The executive member most issue.

N

We should take in turn slash, but I go visit. My mind just think accounts pathetic is that it will be. It would be a member decision based on advice from officers. I would come back to this minute. We have had in briefing we had some discussions regarding this. It may be that there was some executive level involvement as well. I, don't know the position in that regard yet, but, given the the subject of the report before he was coming from this committee, obviously, but expected to be reported back to this committee, get some clarification.

N

She won't had anything month.

A

M

I would agree with the legal adviser and I think that's the intended way forward. That will be some member input into the into the decision as to where it goes next.

N

So in it just to reach a so, it would be, and it would be a member decision based on officer advice. The officer advice would be informed by counsel's opinion which have commissioned which will have received. Can.

A

I, can I clarify on that point in relation to the member involvement, a member decision will member or members subject to it coming to this committee, which I think is the indication that officers have been giving will members be able to see the legal advice that the council has received in making their informing their decision.

N

And that the IND members code of conduct there is protocol and rules regarding access to documentation, we'd have to review those. But if the assessment was the most information which you properly required in order to adjudicate that, of course, that the the advice would be made available to you, I only qualify it because there are references in the code of conduct. My line state is that, yes, of course, it would be available to members so I'm, not talking to quietly. Excuse me could.

A

I repeat it whether the point that I was going to make is that I would have our I would argue, and I do argue, that the legal advice is is absolutely required for members to make any decision and seeking to make an informed decision. Obviously, the you know we would have to take advice as to what level any such meeting could take place in a public forum if there is very sensitive legal matters and that's the decision for the committee as well.

A

However, I'm sure and from seeing some nods around the room, I believe that members would certainly want to see that legal advice before making a decision so don't think they could make an informed decision otherwise, of.

N

Course, I, agree and I've got the protocol inference to me now from the council's Constitution Constitution. If members need that need to know the information and the information is made available to them, the only caveat those are other ones comprised in the in the protocol itself. So yes, I, agree Council at.

A

Casa Fong clearly.

R

We've got to see the advice, otherwise, in a sense, what's the point of getting it. It just raised then that time marches on we're soon into perder. So if we're gonna have to meet, we need to get a date fixed very quickly. Sorry about that I think.

A

We have one meeting scheduled: that's midmark mid-march before the perda period, so obviously with officers draft to review that at that point you have any further questions from members.

A

Councillor Taylor.

O

So I think there are two things one one is yes, we were waiting for this legal advice, which seems sensible things to do, but the other thing is about the enforcement members of the taxi trailers. Both seem to be suggesting that somehow sound drivers are picking up illegally they're, creating ranks somewhere in the city and picking up illegally, maybe without using the mobile device.

O

Now question was asked about enforcement, whether you, whether you had the staff for the enforcement and you've, said Matt, that's you do have the staff. Can he tell us? What's enforcement activities taking place yeah.

M

Sure, and so we have our regular enforcement officer in the taxi licensing team and carrying out that he work throughout the week and then, in addition to that one night a week, we've got two enforcement officers out early early in the morning, looking for contraventions. Now that don't only deal with taxi licensing issues that that's that's there, but part of their reasonings work is to deal with taxi licensing breaches now I have to say having been out with them.

M

It is very, very difficult to be in the right place at the right time and we do rely on drivers when they say wrongdoing reporting it to us, and that is what the officer during the week, the lion's share of their work is dealing with those issues that are reported in regularly and well we're grateful for that information. It does rely on the eyes and ears of off the trade reporting things when they see wrongdoing happening. We can then follow that up, but we can't be everywhere in the city at all times.

M

It simply doesn't matter that.

O

Sounds good? There was a comment made by one of the speakers who said that local taxi drivers could move our enforcement officers to the points of concern, but that's have been refused. Is that the case or what would you accept that that would be a useful thing?

O

M

Not aware it's been refused I'm, not entirely sure that that would be necessary. I, our officers have means there's no ground. Thus, if they are bad, they are no yes, so so and well, that's a very generous offer, I'm, not t-shirts, it's necessary one. Other point: we have been prosecuting people for prime for oil.

M

There are prosecutions going through and, as I said before, these these things are followed up and we do an annual report to members on the enforcement policy taken in public protection, and you will see on reading that there are cases applying for hire another wrongdoing by taxi drivers going through the court system.

O

It might be valuable to publicize successful cases when they, when they come through the courts, just to show that the city is doing something I.

A

Think that cuz I've seen a couple of them I've, just a supplementary on that matter. One of the public speakers mentioned the enforcement team shrinking from four to one I, wonder if you could comment on on that and whether that that's correct I.

M

Don't recognize enforcement team shrinking from four to one and I? Don't think it's ever been up for is.

A

It that they that they are engaged in various different areas, and it's not just some dedicated taxi licensing law, I.

M

Mean that could, but that could be the interpretation but I, don't I, don't remember there being four taxi enforcement officers, certainly not in my time there's never been four taxi license. In fact, we've grown our enforcement provision. So I don't recognize that comment at all.

A

Councillor Richardson was it in a supplementary to this I just you.

E

Say that they go out early morning, I have seen a number of drivers if this is the object of what we're trying to do playing from about four o'clock to 8 o'clock, particularly to the railway station. So if you're going early morning, you will never be presented with the opportunity to ask them and as a team whether they are carrying out their correct duties. So maybe you might wish to maybe look at your tire mitts.

M

Yes, thank you. Care I mean that that is an issue, we're not out 24 hours a day, and we know I take that point, and that comes back to where we rely on the trade reporting wrongdoing that they say to us. We can follow up bookings that haven't happened. That haven't been really offensive, excuse the phrase, but we can follow that up through the operators to see whether there are journeys that that match that time.

M

Of course, it's in the operator's interest that people aren't applying for hire because they they take a cut from those from those journeys. So the operators are very cooperative if they think that there is plan for hire in in their vehicles, counsel.

A

S

Thank you, I want to make an observation, because I think that the members, so the taxi trade have put forward several questions, namely about whether this committee would be able to stand it on two feet and and not be completely reliant upon official advice. I was involved in the decision which we took coming up when it was about a year ago to actually say that uber were not a fit and proper provider and that we took that decision, and we took that decision. I. Think against.

S

Where people thought we were going to go so I think we do need to reassure people that this committee will actually make a decision and it will be made by members and that I think that the members around the table, a keen that we made this point clear to all those people raised in those questions, that this will be a members decision and a members decision taken on the basis of information that we receive and I feel that we need to reassure people that that would be the case.

A

Only further indications from remembers, obviously this is a report to note there's no particular recommendation at the end of it. We've had a number of comments made by officers but I think a welcoming, particularly around the member involvement in seeing the legal advice and then making the decisions. I think that's that's obviously very positive news and that counsel read I.

P

Just wanted to make comment really on enforcement.

P

The enforcement is it's the difficult across the board on whatever activity this council has to enforce on, because so often it relies on somebody being in the right place at the right time and we have complaints that we don't have enough enforcement in planning in fly-tipping in littering in taxi drivers, taxi licensing and I. Think in in all cases, we rely on the support and help of members of the public, albeit to taxi trade or members of the public with fly-tipping and everything and I. Think that's that's something that we.

P

We need to recognize and I think other people need to recognize that you know it is. It is very difficult to catch somebody in the act of whatever that illegal activity they happen to be doing and I do know that officers do in all in all this work very hard to try and and do that and that actually publicizing when we do when we are successful in prosecution, does rely on the press actually following up the stories that the council feeds them.

F

P

No I mean they do and they don't they don't always publicize things, but hopefully that we, you know they do quite often, but it but I, don't think. From that point of view. The council does feed the stories through through to the press if they don't print them, that isn't necessary officer sports. So I just wanted to make our points to.

O

Councillor Richardson.

A

E

Just a quick bite, it's just something that's at solid on something else. If we aren't provided with evidence from dashcams, are they acceptable as evidence, because I believe there may be an issue with data protection act in some cases, depending body actually hauled? So if taxi drivers saw even counselors driving along and seen a particular situation, can we then download that to a particular site and if the visit site can you let us know what that site is so that then it will go to the particular officer.

M

I'm not sure about downloading it to a particular site, but you can certainly email the footage in and we will review that and deal with it. In fact, you know that that's crucial evidence in a number of our cases yeah. Thank you. What.

A

Counsel, Pavlovic, obviously just to clarify three meters. We don't have a debate section in this, so if there any other points you want to make more than happy to take, and only because we don't have formal recommendations, so kasalivich Thank.

Q

You chair, thank you for pointing that out, but I would just like to make some observations in respect of the legal advice. I know that we've been expecting this opinion for quite something quite some while and that we have got a meeting in March I would very much expect that if the advice does come and within the next week to ten days that the officer advice is ready and prepared, and it enables it enables this committee to be able to make a decision rather than hold it off potentially to beyond the next.

Q

The next election so I hope and expect that whatever we get when this comes to committee. Next, it's it's something that will enable mr. committee to make a decision and I absolutely concur with the points that's been made by councilor, Hayes I think this committee is not afraid to make difficult decisions, controversial decisions and they know in good faith on the on the advice of officers, but also on their own on their own opinions. So so that's that's what I'd like to say that this does come with something concrete in March.

A

Council voice thank.

T

Thank You chair.

T

We've heard quite a lot about the public being expected to have safe and pleasant and legal journeys in caps, which is absolutely true, but I think we do need to reinforce that. We expect that exemplary behavior from cab drivers, wherever they are from and I I, do have to say and I have never been in an uber in my life I have had I was in a private hire vehicles for my York firm. Only the other day who turned right out of Lendl I.

T

Know people complain about this, but again we would not expect that kind of behavior I had a colleague who came to be the facilitator on a course. I was on recently who had jumped in a cab at the station, so it no doubt station taxi and had been regaled with extremely undesirable political views from the taxi driver totally owned asked, which again is totally unacceptable.

T

So I think we all have to I think they all have to maybe take stock a little bit and consider behavior and staying within the law and to make sure that those that the whole of the population which whoever they use are safe and feel confident in York firms.

T

A

You castle voice I think that a couple of very good points you're making that obviously this is a technical issue around the Lord that we're looking at and I appreciate that a lot of the public speakers have come today and mentioned a wide variety of different issues in relation to taxi licensing and members of other chants. Obviously, to ask ask officers questions about that so subject to getting to that point at a future meeting and I agree with counsel Pavlovic about that, the timings of that.

A

Obviously, we've got perder coming up in which we can't make significant decisions that could be deemed to be political and affecting the election. So time is running out, so we obviously expect to be kept informed and updated on when that advice is received and then be able to see that and make our recommendations following that. So with the final comment and word going to councillor, Richardson I'm almost ready to move on so.

E

Jeff, it was just a point that that kind of council boys I have asked counsel at you as a executive member to request offices reinstate the section, so you will no longer be able to turn right out of Lendl due to the fact that it's a number of vehicles are breaching the Highway Code. At that point, I hope you will be installed very soon will be one less problem for this committee. Well, thank you. Thank.

A

You members councillor Hayes your microphone still on, so if you could turn that off as well with that, I will include that item and we will move on to item 5, which is yes I. Do we will give people to cancel leave if they want to or you can stay, and this is the rest of the meeting, but we'll give you a couple minutes.

A

Thank You members will we'll get back under way, well switch around psychics. We only have one other person who's with us to speak, so we'll do the statement of licensing policy and cumulative impact assessment item next, which was item four and that's on pages five to 90 so blessed, are you introducing us Thank.

U

You, chair and just to let members know sergeant. Jackie Booth is with us this this evening, I asked Jackie to attend just in case there's any questions from members regarding the report from the police. That was the evidence base for the community of impact assessment, so in accordance with requirements of section 5 of the licensing act. This report seeks members formal support for the formal review of the council statement of licensing policy and it advises of the under this consultation undertaken and in accordance with section 5, a of the Act.

U

It also seeks members support for the implementation of a community impact assessment for a part of the city center. This report seeks members recommendation to full council that the policy in the community of impact assessment be adopted.

U

Section 5 of the licensing Act requires that a statement of licensing, publish statement of licensing policy is published at least every five years and our lessons last statement of licensing policy was published in March 2014, and it also requires that we do a formal consultation prior to the implementation of a new policy due to changes to the writings enact and especially in relation to community of impact assessment officers determined to do a major review of the policy.

U

So I haven't put that old policy within this report, because I thought it would confuse members I want members just to be minded of the new policy and what we were implementing moving forward and paragraph 7 of the report and page 6 and 7 details. Some of the changes that have been included within the revised policy and the draft policy can be found at annex 1 of the report.

U

As a council, we've always included a special policy within our statement of license policy which we commonly refer to as the cumulative impact zone of the sea. I said prior to changes in legislation that came into force April of last year.

U

Special policies were only mentioned in the section 182 guidance that were never actually made. It was never actually mentioned within the licensing act itself. However, now it is at section 5a and the private. This provision means that a council can publish a cumulative impact assessment, but the community of impact assessment just had to be ever evidence-based.

U

One of the slight differences with regards to a community vision impact assessment. A council has to review this once every three years, whereupon the policy is once every five, so I can proceed. Moving forward, as the community of impact assessment is referred to within the statement of licensing policy was a potential. We would review the statement of licensing policy once every three years as well, but we'll see how that was moving forward.

U

So the police provided some data for an area which has been associated with crime and disorder in relation to the consumption of alcohol and the public protection service, provided data relating noise Association to the operation of licensed premises and from our information we had produced a community, the impact assessment area.

U

And the community of impact assessment area has been determined because that we believe it affects the licensing objectives, the prevention of crime and disorder and the prevention of public nuisance. By publishing a cumulative impact assessment, the council is setting down a strong statement of the intent about its approach to considering applications for the grants and variation of premise licenses and club premise certificate within the area described within the community.

U

The impact assessment we've also identified what we plot, calling a red zone due to the high concentration of licensed premises and the impact of which has led to higher levels of occurrences and to crime and disorder, and by identifying this red zone where relevant represents our received. Unless the applicant can show how their application would not lead to an increase in the impact of in this area. In this zone, we were stating that the application should be refused.

U

The community of impact assessment is covered within section 9 of the draft policy and the draft communities at impact. Impact assessment is attached to annex two of the report. The full report received from North Yorkshire, police's ataxia and x3. We undertook a 12-week consultation in relation to both the policy and the assessments, then that was held between the 5th of October, the 28th of December, and we we put the revised policy, the draft policy online and the draft assessment online.

U

We wrote to people emailed people to bring that to attention the the consultation on the policy, so we consulted over 50 organizations and we consulted every licensed premises within the authority area and a list of the council. T's can be found at Alix, for we receive four responses to the consultation and those can be attached to an x5 within the draft policy at Amex and one of the reports I have done the tracked changes of the amendments made. With regards to the consultation report, the responses received.

U

The as a council, we published our first policy in January 2005, and this policy has been formally reviewed on three occasions since, at the request of the North Yorkshire police, we published our first special policy in April 2005.

U

At that time, the boundary was determined by the crime and disorder prior to that date, so the first zone was only a small area shows that some members around around this table can remember as implementing the first zone, and this zone has again been reviewed on three occasions: July 2010 and March 2014 and again in July 2016 on two of those occasions. The area of that zone has has increased.

U

The the zone proposed within the community of impact assessment isn't quite as large as our community of impact zone is at present due to the evidence-based provided by the police. The zone no longer incorporates all of Goodrem gates. The current CI said girls as far as the bare walls, whereas the new proposed area goes as far as College Street, neither Cross Keys public house, and it doesn't include Tower Street anymore, because we haven't got the evidence base to include those areas.

U

The options before you today are to recommend to full council that the draft policy in the community impact assessment are adopted. That's option one or option to recommend to full council that the draft policy and community of impact assessment is amended with it, with the alternative wording agreed by members. Thank you check. Thank.

A

You very much Lesley, so in this section we will be doing questions officers and then debate so questions to Leslie about York's own CIA, councillor Richardson. Thank.

E

You yes, I was there but I started off I'm not live more than, and my concern is this, and it's been the usual thing that we develop areas where there are additional drinking which aren't within the scene. I said I mean it then becomes well, it's not beginning. We can. We don't look at it really in the same way, we're now developing Piccadilly and.

E

Tosca etc around there and now we've got Stumbo, that's going to be a large drinking type whatever it's, whether we need to be look at looking at extending we're actually bringing in more drinking.

E

Establishments which will add to and at some point that we either pre-emptive, ah do we then say: oh well, we keep need an eye on this or how are we going to make sure that we just don't end up with a lot and will just explode, and that's it? It's not about the job. It's about what the effect of those those businesses have as an area, because if you encourage people to go because it's it's expanding house margin, key places Fosca is going to have no very close.

E

Therefore, you have more people walking around and sitting the tables and everything else they have to be placed. There are only so many police officers in this to take so they can't be everywhere. So it's are we competent that we are keeping an eye on shifting patterns, shall we say.

U

Yes, the the proposed area just cover prostate prostate, has been within the community impact zone and for a few years now sergeant both and I. We sat down and we look through they, the report produced by the place and considered it very closely, and we will, even though we only have legally, we have to review the community of impact assessment every three years if it determined that in six months time, due to new licensed premises, opening or we've got a change in crime patterns in certain areas, we can review it again at any time.

U

We feel we need. So we do work very closely with the place and we would look. We would keep that under constant review, brilliant.

E

Thank You councillor Taylor.

O

Thank You, Leslie I think you might apparently answer my question. That's my PO is very similar to tone is that wherever we draw the line of the cumulative impact zone, we then send to get license applications for license premises just inside that zone and I am concerned at the statistics in the report that showed quite an increase in violence attacks 25% of what only 4% increase in violent attacks. So it's something that we do need to be very cautious about in reducing the cumulative impact zone.

U

Yeah I agree: it is something I've got to admit when I got. The report from the police, I was shocked by some of the information within there. I was shocked by that at the top five streets. I was shocked that blossom Street was included within one of the top five streets, but on reading the report and the information we do have a lot of late night, refreshment houses in that area and we do have some off licenses.

U

So there are the things that we have to take into consideration with with regards to this policy, but as I say, we work very closely with the police. We will keep the area under constant review and even though a premise may apply that, isn't for a grant or a variation of a license that we isn't within the zone, they still have to be able to put their operating schedule forward, that to the satisfaction of the responsible authorities and if they're not there. Those applications will be before members to determine.

V

Good afternoon members and chair and in relation to to the report I understand that there is concern in relation particularly to the recorded crimes of violence, and that is a national trend right across the country, and that is due to the reporting methods that we now have to employ, which is national crime, reporting and high crimes are reported and recorded. That said, you know we are still one of the safest counties across England and Wales from a licensing perspective. What we do within North Yorkshire places every month.

V

We look at those license premise that report the most calls for service and we sit down with the individual and licensing authorities, so myself would sit down with Leslie in York and we would look at the calls for service what the nature of those calls for service are and we would identify if there is concern there so that we could have early engagement with those premises to ascertain what we could look at and to work in partnership to reduce those calls for service and any concerns around crime and disorder within that locality. Can.

O

We just be clearer than that. The increase is is partly due of wholly due to the changes in the way that the crimes are being recorded. I think.

V

We we can say that part of it is due to the crime recording I think some people potentially have more confidence in reporting incidents nie. There is obviously a lot through social media which encourages people to report. If there are crimes happening so I think it is twofold. You have an increase in people wanting to come forward to report crimes, but also I do think high. The crime recording system has evolved and we have had to adhere to those guidelines has affected those figures.

O

Just finally, and what's your view is, is there an increase in crime or is Adisa reporting in the ways in which, where you're being a student, recording I, think.

V

That's very difficult to say from a personal perspective as a police officer in North Yorkshire for 19 years and I do think that the public know I want to come forward and do report crime because they want ourselves in the place as a responsible authority to take action to make their communities and the places they frecuencia and they realize that if they don't report those crimes, then we can't tackle that issue and I. Think that is the key message that certainly, as a police force, we are trying to put out there.

V

We are trying to say to people if you see an issue. If you are a victim of crime, then please let us know so we can address that and we want to obviously make the community safer. We don't have the incidents reported, we don't know about it and we can't deal with it sure.

O

I think that's more reassuring counsel, Popovich.

Q

Thank you. It's just a continuation of that in respective the section 47, the assault, occasioning, actual bodily harm to have gone up from 250 to 365. That's a really significant rise, and those are those aren't really going to be reflected by changes in reporting, because we're not talking about a common assault. Of course sure we're talking about we're talking about incidents where there could be some really significant injuries caused. So I'm just a little bit concerned that any bringing in of the boundary of the CI a is is a real concern.

Q

I was involved in the licensing application for stone, though, and the problem there was that that was the CI said stopped at the front door.

Q

So the presumption was then that you had to to approve, as opposed to had it been further down the building, if you like, which would have been to have refused it as opposed to have accepted it.

Q

So I think the crime figures really are massively concerning, and it does correspond to a piece of work that councillor Richardson and myself have been doing around particularly alcohol use in in the city center, and the licensing of premises is one of the major factors for alcohol-related problems, so alcohol-related violence, crime of all types as well as hospitals and and the impact on individuals, health, so I'm, just I'm.

Q

Just a little bit concerned that our ability to as a as a licensing committee to make decisions about the granting of a license on may may be impacted by moving the CI a in words as opposed to round the city. Walls, essentially, which is, which is what you were talking about before Leslie I, think Leslie's.

A

You want to come in on on the point that counts of pavlovic was making in relation to the size of the CI a compared to the CI said it's. My understanding was it's a very small change and because of the statute, it needs to be evidence-based.

U

Yeah, the the community of impact area has never been with regards to the city walls. Our public space protection order is the city walls, but the cumulative impact area has never been that large. As councilor Lewis correctly said, the community of impact assessment has to be evidence-based and if we don't up their evidence for a particular area of the city, I'm afraid to say, we can't include it with it within the area and with regards to Goodrem gay, we have only removed a little bit of Goodrem.

U

Gay is the the bit where the Golden Slipper and the Royal Oak allocated that little bit from the National Trust Shop to the bar walls and with regards to Tower Street. We have just removed again just a little bit where there's a few restaurants in that area, because we do not have the evidence base for it to be in, but we will we and Sgt booth and I. We meet regularly.

U

We meet regularly with the city center inspector, so this will be kept under constant review and if we feel that it needs to be changed, we will bring a report to members again to out for a recommendation to full council that the area is changed, whether that's to make the area larger or to make the area smaller dependent on where the evidence lies. I think.

A

That's that's reassuring to hear, and obviously, as a committee, this committee will be reviewing it every three years anyway, subject to other changes: I've got Council Hayes, then councilor region.

S

This is really for information of looks at the the maps on the ciz and also the location of the top five tier streets, and there seems to be a slight anomaly between one and the other and I wondered if we could explain it to me. I mean essentially, you've got in the top five tier streets, which is they're not on the color, and that's that the graphs on page, though it's number 33, page 11 and then two pages on all of the three pages on you've got the on page. 17.

S

You've got the the shape of the this, the see I said and I notice on the on the maps. Mikkel gate I mean this is particularly interest to me as the Mikkel gate. Quad counselor doesn't appear on that yet in terms of the top five tier streets Mikkel gear as 331, as opposed to some of the others which are descending. But does this refer to previous years, because I see that that is what it says in the text. I couldn't quite see how a plus B equals. What we've got.

U

So you said cap page page.

S

Without pages, so this.

U

Is the page 11 which is 55 Jackie and before that we.

A

Did buy the full report.

S

Right so page 55 for the.

A

55 is the top strings yeah.

O

S

And then we've got the maps which are on sorry to give me. Ip maps are on 60 as.

A

Well, right, that's the CIA.

S

I mean just couldn't quite see how, as I said, those statistics managed to balance one another ours.

O

Is it just because Mikkel gay is a very long straight, whereas Blake Street is just one restaurant, that's causing the problem I.

A

Mean a very similar question that I had on pretty much that exact issue and I, don't know if Jackie or less do you want to come back on that is when you're looking at the red the red zone, that's been defined as the areas with the most within a significant number of crime related issues. Mikkel gate is obviously not on there. There's cows LaHaye says it's.

A

It's number one in terms of the top five tier streets and also, if you look at the map on on page 60, it's quite hard to tell with the number of dots, but it does seem to be relatively equivalent to some of the other areas as well. So some clarification around that would be helpful. I think.

V

Apologies in relation to the the top tier streets, so those were taken in relation to they calls for service that we received from those areas and they were identified as the top five locations.

V

Regarding the map itself, what the analyst has done is she has plotted the calls for service on those areas, specifically that were previously within the CI that old area to obviously high light, and that's where, if you have a little I, think it's more in an intensive area. The red area, which is what we're saying, is the significant area for the amount of calls that are being recorded is that my understanding of the question that's been posed is why we have that area as opposed to the top five tier locations.

V

I just want to make sure I'm getting that.

S

I'm not quite sure, if I've understood that I'm afraid, forgive me a that there appears to be a high level of incidence and they in the graph that refers to 331 within Mikkel gates on if you've got that and but then he appears to be outside his red zone. That's been recorded on the maps. I couldn't quite followed. Where that anomaly right there.

V

So in relation to the actual locations, then the Mikkel gate area. That is the exact number of calls for service that have been received within the timeframe and for the report in relation to the map itself.

V

Men and the map has the aunt what the analyst has done has she has plotted, but the areas themselves may not be as big on the map, if you so obviously, we have 331 incidents reported during the time, freedom and respect of the middle gate area, but when their report, when they're recorded on the map, the significance of that is potentially for that small area or the area that the whole see I said coverage does not make it look as as big so we've had to concentrate in relation to the red area.

V

Where is the most significant area? I'm, not sure I'm quite explain that very well. I'm I am my apology.

S

Still not sure I do or forgive me I mean. Are we saying that the mikkel care incident is decreasing.

S

V

And when I've sat down with the analyst, what we have looked at is the actual physical number of calls for service, and those calls for service are linked on on page 55, as you will see, and they are the actual numbers of incidents that we have reported to us. So that is what she has gone through as to the calls for service.

V

In respect of that, when we have been looking at what we deemed to be appropriate and relevant and regarding the licensing objectives of prevention of crime and soared and incidents linked to that, we have gone through and what I, myself and Leslie agreed were relevant incidents. So we've taken like, for example, crime theft, which could have happened on Michael, get. We have taken that those I, because we do not believe they are contributed all under the licensing act. So.

S

So it's a qualitative difference. Sorry.

V

S

V

S

That's fine! Okay! In there.

V

No, it was me probably and I was explaining it.

S

I've got to them the.

A

Graph on page 55 relates to all crimes and incidences. Yes, under my apology, as the the assessment of the red zone, they say is the assessment in relation to licensing objectives. That's correct, brilliant, that's very helpful. Counselor Reid, I.

P

Think yeah, something else may be a bit simpler. It does actually relate to mitigate and x5 page 87, which is the responses. I was surprised how few there were, but a whilst I appreciate that the comments on Michael gate are possibly with the pot from the small amendment, not nothing much that we can address in this I wanted to be reassured that perhaps officers are looking at the issues raised outside this process and looking to see whether and the normal and the normal scheme of things, there's anything that you can do, but I didn't.

U

Yeah, when I've shared the comments that were raised prior to them been in this report with them, my colleagues in the police and with my colleagues in public protection he'll do the Trading, Standards and side of work so that they're, aware of some of the things that have been raised so that they can maybe target certain exercises within those areas. All.

P

I wanted to know that that those were being followed up as well outside this particular process. Any.

A

Further questions, council, Singh.

E

I have to say, I was disappointed to see that the center required a a spore exclusion for the weekend. Jutsu, presumably perceived increases that I understand. There were police officers lying in the station when a number trains came in, so there was clearly a an issue about perceived issues Karara within the city which, having looked at the grass I.

E

I'm not sure whether actually we've got the station area covered enough, where we come work jointly with the Transport Police, although there is good working I've been out, but this morning, if there was any comments regarding that, you would like to see any increase decrease in areas I.

V

Think if, if we could have and the police would look to obviously have a number of other areas included but as Leslie's pointed out, I think we are often challenged now in relation to what evidence we have to suggest the most significant areas where we need to concentrate and the hot spot areas and due to obviously the the police in numbers that we have I, think it's important to identify the areas that are hotspots.

V

That said, I think it needs to be constantly under review, and it was one of the things that the inspector for the city as part of a number of partnership meetings that he chairs looks at regularly and there is that collaboration working with bridge Transport Police regarding the station when we have events in the city and the numbers that are coming into the city and that are using obviously the real network. We work very closely in respect of that and I think.

V

We need to look and concentrate moving forward, that if there is hotspot areas that are becoming as emerging trends for areas where there's antisocial, behavior and crime, we look to have early intervention and just because we have identified the areas within the map and the top-tier locations. That doesn't mean that we're not looking at other areas where problems are being reported and we need to have I think other agencies working with us to report those those issues.

V

So I'm, certainly aware from a licensing perspective, I get a number of reports that come through to ourselves about emerging trends or emerging issues of what could be seeing potentially as low-level anti-social behavior. But that gives us an opportunity to intervene very early to then deal with that. So, whilst I would I would like to look at having you know, the area's extended I think we have to focus on the problem areas and keep that constantly under review.

U

Just so members are aware the public's best protection order that does encompass the area within the bar walls. We also made sure that that covered the railway station as well working with our colleagues from British, Transport Police and one of the the meetings that Jackie and I sit on with regards with the city centre. Policing team also incorporates British Transport Police, so we do try to work.

E

Very closely with them, the second point was to do with. We could get with the changes in vehicle access and the future potential to have half of the road given over to tables and chairs.

E

Do we believe that there may be an impact there or in your own professional position, and is that something we need to keep an eye on as we go forward because of this street drinking I? Think.

V

Moving forward, you know, any applications that we would get for a pavement cafe license would all be reviewed in their own merits individually, and we would certainly you know, as we would do with every license application look any concerns. We had a by a specific premises, including that location and whether there was problems at that location so individually. We would have to respond to those premises and there any applications they put forward and I would hope as well.

V

That I would be able to to work in partnership with my colleagues in planning and highways from respective that.

A

E

And just there's nothing in here I understand: we've had a bit of a crime wave with large amounts of money in the city, but there's nothing in here. It just says: five thousand are under there's, nothing to say how much and how many events were having within this city. That's theft, theft.

V

E

Burglary, whatever you wanna call it and.

V

The reason that we've not incorporated in relation to burglaries and theft's I've tried to keep the crime statistics related to alcohol fueled disorder. So that's why I have not incorporated the burglaries and theft's from that side. I've tried to narrow this time in relation to what we would consider and the promotion of the license and objectives for crime and disorder linked to alcohol fueled incidents.

V

E

A

Before we move on to debate, I've got a final question Lesley for you in relation to the the red zone. Obviously that's a new introduction: could you maybe just flesh out how that might impact from a licensing perspective, new applications moving forward.

U

Moving forward, we will have a community impact assessment area and any new application of variation within that area applicant will have to demonstrate through their operating schedule why the application should be granted and with regards to the red zone area, there is even more emphasis on that why there should demonstrate why the application should be granted. So, whereas, within the community of impact area outside of the red zone, a food led operation with alcohol and celebrity or meal may be favorable within the red zone.

U

That might not be favorable, because we might be determined that we've got such a high concentration of licensed premises in that area. It may it may not be deemed appropriate through the anybody making a representation regarding the application. So it's just something for members to be mindful for with that. If there's ever an application before you, so the whole area is a cumulative impact area, so the applicant will have to demonstrate why the application should be granted within that area.

U

But the red zone is just we've got such a high concentration of licensed premises in that area with crimes related to the alcohol related incidents. Within that area, it's just that they would have to demonstrate even stronger why that their application should be granted. Thank.

A

You there's nothing that clarification is helpful, I'm gonna, move on to debate. Does anyone want to kick us off with some comments? Councillor Richardson yeah.

E

Just just a point that my colleague over there saying about the fact that we had a line where somebody black dog they want from that, but it was a dar way. Can we look at the actual mapping and I had to follow, middle-of-the-road or clearly be fine, like the property, the properties boundaries? If he's like the Pope, he would be the garden so that we don't have. The situation is like well. This silly is that he thought to the DA that actually we should be in the middle of the road.

E

If that's as, though, that's the thought, rather than those getting into well yeah, it's the door, and you are the authority.

U

And within the plan it does incorporate the back of premises. I can foresee the only one that it doesn't is they were on.

U

So I will I will discuss that point. Then.

E

It's just something that should be happening. Yeah.

U

E

Long do they. Thank you further.

A

Comments remembers yeah, happy to to second that and and thank Sargent booth, fair attend in saying it's been very helpful and to hear from the police and hear their perspective. Obviously, this is updating our position, putting the cumulative impact zone into an evidence-based form with the new legislation. That's that's come forward, so I think that's very welcome and we'll move option ones. Everyone happy with that recommend. Yeah.

K

A

You and we'll move on to the final item.

B

A

Renewal of the sex establishment license for upstairs mansion, a page 91, let's say you're, going to introduce.

O

Declaration of interest, I suppose I do know. Mr. Andrew Whitney is the applicant service, but then again, I didn't know half the taxi drivers in the room. Earlier, not personal friends, just people who drive me around in the taxi or mister yeah.

A

I recall that we had some similar discussions the last time this renewal came up so in in the interest of clarity. I'll declare the same interest as last time in that I know the applicant, but not as a very close personal friend in the same way as councillor Taylor, as does councillor Richardson, know.

A

Less they do want to present the report. Thank.

U

You this is an application for the renewal of a sex establishment license or a sexual entertainment venue. It's upstairs 53 to 55 Mikkel gary-oke and a copy of the application can be found at our next one I copied. The license that is to be renewed, is also attached to annex 2 and the operating hours requested. Our Monday to Sunday from 9:00 p.m. to 3:00 a.m. and on your Chris is from 6:00 p.m. until 4:30 a.m.

U

the premises currently holds a premise license issued under the Licensing Act 2003, and a copy of that license can be found at an x3. With a summary available on page 92 of the report. A sex establishment license is valid for a period of 12 months, and the holder must submit an application to renew the license before the list. Existing license expires if they wish to continue operating as a sexual entertainment venue.

U

This Authority has adopted the provisions within the legislation in relating relation to sex establishments, and the council adopted a policy on the 27th of April 2017, with with immediate effect, standard conditions in relation to sexual entertainment. Venues can be found at and x4 I can confirm that the consultation process was carried out correctly and that there are no objections to the renewal of this license. A map showing their location around the premises is attached to an x5 and I apologize to members, because the reserve is is never in the report.

U

Just say I make six, but that the map is attached to an x5. When considering the renewal application, the authority does not have an unfettered discretion as to whether to refuse the application or to grant the renew the grounds on which an application could be refused or set out. At paragraph 16 to 18 of the report, the committee has the following options: when making your decision grant the renewal of their old license, grant the really new of the license with modified additional condition imposed by this committee. Our option three refused the application. That's terrific.

A

Thank You Leslie members, any questions. The officer council read I'm.

P

Very confused about timing, because I thought I reappraise a couple of meetings ago and when you look on page 105, it says this license should continue enforced from the first December 2017 to the 30 November 2018, and the renewal was granted on the 20th of June 2018, so page 105. So why is it in front of us again again because I haven't been on the back on this committee for a year.

C

P

Then it says it was granted on the 20th of June 2018.

P

U

To clarify the applicant for the renewal last year did submit the renewal application in time. However, they didn't do the consultation process correctly.

U

Therefore, it didn't go to a committee until the June right, because until the consultation process has been completed, we can't bring a report before members, because, if there's provision within the legislation that as long as the renewal application is submitted before the license expires, it remains in force until such time that the renewal is either granted or refused. So.

P

What period are we granting this license for them?.

U

Even though, even though we would be new weeks today, it will renewed from the day that the license expired.

A

We did, we did have these discussions last time when, when it came late and also we were asking whether that meant a licensed person was still in force. At the time we were making the mass decision so.

P

It is slightly counterintuitive.

A

P

It seems a bit strange, we're renewing anyway, finds within the local.

A

Council of Boise next and then it has published thank.

T

You and under standard conditions, annex four, it does say that the premises shall only be open to the public after nine o'clock and I do understand from the policy that we brought in in 2017 that they standard conditions in there were that the dancing stripping or tivities should only be after at nine o'clock at night, and it's I'm sure there must have been reasons for that. We think that is not a suitable entertainment to be done during the day.

T

So why are we actually considering or allowing or have allowed in the past this one to be open from six o'clock on race days? Then it actually goes against our own policies.

B

U

The renewal report was brought before members last year. The police did object to the application, because on race days it went before our policy. However, members of this committee determined that, due to the fact that it was the renewal of an existing license and that there had been no issues that the premises that they granted the renewal for the hours from 6:00 p.m. on a race day,.

P

Sure wasn't it grandfather right so they have they had the permission before we brought the policy in yeah.

U

Yeah the them, since this premise was probably not first license I- think they did vary the license at some point. During the time it's held, a sex establishment license the committee when the request was put to this committee for a six o'clock opening on race days. The committee did gram of that variation. Yes and.

P

Then we brought the policy in so it yes,.

B

A

Q

Thank You chair two questions. Really one have there been any incidents since we heard this five minutes ago and if they haven't, can I move that we accept option 1, because we've already debated this.

B

U

Hasn't been any incidents, I actually have that conversation again with sergeant vu before we came into the meeting just to make sure there's nothing happened over the weekend and we haven't had an incident since it was last renewed I.

A

Suppose it's a wider question of the licensing policy that we have as a council and that these applications for sexual entertainment venues come back to this committee every on an annual basis before renewal. It was so obviously that's. That's part of the reason why it's why it's come back. I'm, happy to support camps! Apologies, move to the boat, I'm happy that yeah.

T

I'd like to say something else,.

A

Okay, counselor voice the floor.

T

Is yours? Thank you. I would like to be able to refuse this I know that they're not illegal and but I still think it's unsavory and I. Don't think it's trading in women's bodies and I.

T

Don't think it's necessarily the message we want to get across so I'm a little bit disappointed, especially when we are at we are allowing these people to go against our own policies, which this kind of entertainment to be suitable to be done at times when there are still people shoppers on the streets, people leaving school activities, young people around that we should be actually having naked women dancing for money at 6 o'clock at night. I'm I'm, not comfortable with it and I do find it is quite I, do find it is quite demeaning to women.

T

However, so I'm I know, I can't actually do anything about this, but I would just like I think we are going against our own policies by saying it's actually ok to be doing this at 6 o'clock, rather than after at the times that we've deemed that our it would be suitable, which is later at night. Thank.

A

You for your comments, council boys, I've, seen a flurry of hands, so I saw councillor, reads first and then I'll work round the table. I.

P

Have some sympathy with councilor voices views about the morale issues for want of another word, but I think on the on the hours I think if there was a new establishment, then we would follow our policy, but first but the fact that the person was operating these hours before we brought in the policy we we can't turn around. Is it the same happens in planning you can't you can't retrospectively change somebody's opening hours if you have no complaints and no reasons to do it so I would I think.

A

There's a supplementary point to that at the previous meeting that we considered this. We did talk about issues that had arisen from that time from that early opening time on race days, and there were none so council that Taylor.

O

Well, I: don't disagree with council voices views on the morality of the issue. We are not permitted to make a decision on moral grounds legally, as this licensing committee and I think we did take the view of the previous committee when we allowed the extension of the license. The police did object to that, but they were rightly drawing to our attention.

O

The fact that we change we change the the hours, but the club have been operating from that time previously and I took the view and I think met other members, and they can disagree with me if they choose certain the view. It would be better to have some of those race cars off the streets in the premises where they can be mummy said than have them roam in the streets.

O

Councillor Richardson.

E

Thank you sure, I'm not gonna, go into the morality of things because would be here all night with various swings and roundabouts and stuff at the end of it. At the end of the day, we had assurances from the owner, which today we've had no complaints. Just being no issues raised about the actual venue he's made it that the activities are upstairs away from the ground floor, so children, young people or whatever I'm not going to be observing such activities. Shall we say whether their rights are wrong?

E

He has provided lots of information and from memory I'm sure he doesn't actually do it from six o'clock they're there later on he's just a Orton's, and he has a license for that. If we're going to start saying well, because some of these got a license, it's, why don't we believe we'd have to go through the whole of this city, because we have a number of license places which don't suit our requirements and our open could Orton longer than what they're they actually do.

E

So just for what he says, six doesn't mean to say they're going to open at six. So we need to look at it in that way and, as David said it's about what we can look at it up got.

A

Another call to move to the vote. The only final point that I would say is that I agree with a lot of the comments around the table.

A

You know we're here to make a decision on the on the basis of the licensing rules that we have notwithstanding some of the immoral views that other members might have I recall from the previous meeting that the police were objecting and they, unfortunately, the police weren't able to attend, because the met the review in the rooms that actually it would have been helpful to have a discussion with the police about it, but they objected purely on the basis that the new policy we brought in don't allow them opening and didn't strictly comply, and when we did questioned officers at the time, you are there issues from the six o'clock to the nine o'clock on race days.

A

The answer was no and with that I'm happy, unless there are any strong views against it to move to the vote on this, so we have a number of options in front of us that are not on the page that I want.

A

So we have option one grant renewal of the license has requested option to renew the license with modifies additional conditions imposed by the licensing committee option. Three refused the application for renewal on one of the mandatory grounds, moving option option, one all those in favor against abstentions. Thank you that is carried so the that concludes the substantive items on the agenda.

A

I have no urgent business other than the comment I wish to make to thank members for their patience in what was obviously quite a long meeting and reflect on the comment made by one of the public speakers about a forward plan. I think might be helpful moving forward in terms of the organization of the committee and understanding where reports are coming in and obviously look forward to the next meeting. And hopefully we will have a report to consider in relation to taxi licensing, so Thank You members, amazing.