Cloud Native Buildpacks Learning Sync, 8 Jun 2021

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From YouTube: Learning Sync: 2021-06-08

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Meeting notes: https://bit.ly/38pal2Z

A

I can cool.

B

Success next up, we have status updates anything.

C

A

I have not been able to focus on any learning stuff. I do have a pretty high priority item for myself uh in regards to the contributors guide, adding that to community. I started working on some of that, but uh nothing published yet.

B

Well yeah same for me, I don't think I had time last week for any learning stuff um but yeah. I have one maybe a gender item around like uh I don't know if it will fall under learning or not, but I'll put that in.

B

B

Anything from you, natalie.

C

I've done nothing this week.

A

That's a very quick statement: I'm a sex statement.

C

On the learning side,.

B

We also have you, I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing your name correctly,.

B

Hi hi um hey, so you submitted a couple of per request to a doc suppository. Thank you for that yeah and also thank you for updating, katakurda. um You.

C

B

Of our gsoc mentees right or am I incorrect.

C

You switch means yeah.

B

Okay, cool um idea, thank you for those requests.

B

The next item on the agenda is user research. Any updates.

C

uh I had an action item to contact the cncf and ask them for a little bit more detail on. um You know.

C

What procedures we should have in place to sort of safeguard data if we're reaching out to people and asking them? You know about their use of build packs, and we put that somewhere like we want to be following all the best practices.

C

Unfortunately, I was unable to reset my password for the service desk. I think I actually just don't even have access, so I'm kind of stuck in that administrative uh loop, but trying to get that done.

C

B

Next up we have a stale issues and prs. This is a new section. You started to do. We tried it out last time and we will maybe let's try it a couple more times to see if it's working out well or not if or we re-evaluate.

B

Let me just share my.

C

C

Is it bad that uh there are 69 open issues total and all of them are stale? Is that true.

B

So the the definition of stale in this case is anything that has not been updated in the last week, uh javier and I have been uh like at least the last time we decided to do um five issues at a time uh sorted from the least recently updated section, so it should update that filter by the way, uh but we were trying to tackle things like in going through the backlog. I think last time we did five issues this time.

B

We also tried to do five issues and hopefully we'll converge at some point, um but yeah. um The first one is provide better specification for pakistan mode um seems to be missing some details state of dependencies um it. I also saw actually like a stack overflow question, come in where someone confused the package tommle for the buildbacks normal and they didn't know like like the back flag for config, just says config.

B

Unless you're like seeing the examples which explicitly say config refers to pakistan. Well, it's sort of hard to figure out which config you're talking about. um I think that may be related, but is there anything we can do about this issue or should.

A

I mean it looks pretty well defined. I am curious if, if we could just add a good first issue- and hopefully we get some nice.

B

B

C

B

Items that started.

A

I was gonna look at the website. Do we not have any documentation on package tomorrow.

B

uh I believe we have some of it so like there is this reference for it right, yeah, that's it but like as ryan says, I think you have no idea what the uri is supposed to look like. You know, they're, like some specific formats for docker images versus others.

B

um I think that's probably the only thing he wanted there.

B

Oh wow, I I didn't know this. uh I I don't know if what's the stages of this be asking on the platform maintainers about this, is this yeah.

A

We got rid of the image key: that's why it's no longer dock but yeah. Okay, uh that makes sense.

A

So I think a good first issue for this and then maybe a call out um to say uh we are still missing um what the ura possible uris are. I could add that comment if you want.

B

Wow I'll just start that for a reminder for myself.

B

Next up, we have document buildback from builder. I remember um like with the pre and post build box. Would we still need this.

A

No, I think this is, if I remember correctly, the rfc specifically calls out that they should be deprecated and removed. Okay, do you have a reference to the pre and posting, maybe just.

B

Hey uh document build.normal.

A

I don't even know what this is: hey.

B

I have no idea either. What's.

C

C

I think this is like the unmet dependencies and build bomb.

B

B

C

This could be a good first issue. I.

B

Think we should probably add some references to what there is okay cool. I think it seems pretty complete.

B

C

C

B

Okay document buildback.

B

Plan um I know we started on this pull request for the detect api. I think we touched upon the build plan there for a bit. Is that still valid, given that detectable.

A

A

Is that part of the life cycles documentation.

B

um Well, buildback authors do have to interact with it, because the buildback plan um is what I believe they write to in the build plan. Is they won't write they read from during the bill phase or I'm confusing the two terms, but um I think it adds like it at least has.

B

Documentation for the build plan, which is the input during the build step. But.

A

It doesn't interact with it from a bill pack author's perspective right and that's what.

B

C

There's also sorry, there's like a separate. I dislike this organization, but there's a separate uh description of the build plan in the reference spec build pack api, which I'm not sure david. I know david himself added this, so maybe he did it after creating this.

C

Issue that kind of describes the tummle and like why you would use it this way.

C

uh I put a link in the chat. Let's see when this was edited.

A

All right, the second bullet point, then, is done right, adding it to the build pack api reference.

A

What about the first one.

B

I think we do explain it as a part of the tutorial, or at least we touch upon it because, um like during the ruby buildback, they do have to use it to get. I believe, the ruby version and just the fact that ruby is required.

B

So there is like there is this version of it, which is explained in the buildback authors uh tutorial. We don't explain the or provides or requires part of it.

A

Yeah, so it seems like there could be some improvements, but the overall gist of the issue is done right. I I'm okay with closing that.

A

B

Okay- and I think the last one is a documentation of all of the configuration files which is like, um I think it's like a meta issue for some of the issues we went through. So I guess we can just come back to it once we solve the other ones, great.

B

And we have steel prs.

B

We just have one stale pr, I believe which.

A

Is blocked right now, yeah, it's blocked, yeah.

C

Cool, that's it.

B

Next up unlabeled issues and we don't have anything so that's good.

A

Did um did the big pack author's rfc go through for the the new sub team.

B

It's in fcp and it closes tomorrow.

B

A

Yeah, I'm just curious. It just came to mind when we were looking at some of the build pack author specific documentation, and I was thinking that we'd probably want to update the label to build tech, authors uh team, but we'll get to that later.

A

Actually I could take it as an action item.

A

C

A

A

B

There's this multiple personas example. Let me share my screen, so this is the first time I've seen something like this, but I found it interesting. That's why I thought I'd share, but like evolving, like talked about the landing page for buildbacks being like too abstract and not appealing to like the right audiences, so this particular startup decided to split their landing page into two and like they have an executive version which uses more marketing terms on. Why like, why should um business owners use their project and then they have a more decky version for like?

B

Why should engineers be interested in it and like it was just like a show and tell? But I wonder if we could do something like this, given that we target so many different personas like saying that, hey, if you're an app developer, you get no config builds if you're an operator, you get control over your container images and so on and so forth, or maybe we can literally split it into a similar uh set of personas, which is like a more technical one and a more executive one for like people who want.

B

B

Like things like these, I don't know if it makes sense for belfast, though, uh and for the deck one it it uses more tech friendly. So like things, people would be interested in again. That's that's all I have to say about this.

A

So when when, when you brought that up, um what came to my mind was like, I thought we were talking about like the existing personas, that we already acknowledge right. So, like the app developer, the build pack author, um the operator right and maybe even integrations- I don't know- I feel like if you on that one um but for sure, like I think, if I'm thinking out loud right, it's the app developer would probably be the primary persona um that it defaults to.

A

I believe in the past we've talked about like it would be nice if there was like a copy and paste option right where, like you know how a lot of uh tech uh websites have a download or run this command right. So we could have a run this command. But then you just basically get to select what builder you want to use to auto generate that command.

A

Like I thought, that'd be nice and that's very app developer focused, and then you there's a tab right, a little switch somewhere where you can switch over to a build pack, author marketing landing page, and then that could talk about more or less the value of the power.

A

As a build pack author that you have and maybe about some of the inner workings and then lastly, the operator right like of and then on that one we could focus on all the day two operations, and maybe the separation of concerns like let you have developers do whatever they want, and then you have all this like added value on your side, I could definitely envision something like that. um It is, I guess, not normal right like this is the first site that has done this, and um so I wonder how discoverable it would be.

A

So I think that would be probably one of like from a ux perspective. One of my initial concerns is like. Would people even know that this thing exists right versus all the work that we might need to put into making three different landing pages? Essentially.

A

And you're needed sam we're talking.

B

And I think someone new to the buildbacks project may not even know what an operator is or what their responsibilities are or what a pullback author is. So you also need to find terms that people who fit that persona would relate to know maybe like a language owner or whatever, but it it was just interesting. That's why I thought that I don't know if we want any action items out of this.

A

I mean I like it. I just I think it requires a little bit of design skill, maybe right.

A

And I know I don't know if sam, if it was you or natalie, I remember somebody brought up like this idea of like going through.

C

A

Like where you would like it would ask you basic questions right like do you care about. You know this, and then you like go into this like little workflow of things, and so then you know going back to answering that, like persona thing is, maybe they don't know what not developer versus build pack author versus uh operator is, but maybe you could just ask them questions right or or formulate them in a way of a question right. It's a that might be an approach to guide them into the proper landing page for them.

C

Oh, my god, we could use machine learning to tailor the content exactly to their their needs.

A

Oh, I think we have a machine learning expert somewhere in this project.

B

A

Yeah, I wonder like if we wanted to toy around with the idea. From my perspective, it would be like maybe painting a quote-unquote designer or like someone with a ux skills and be like hey. We have this crazy idea. Do you think it's you know reasonable, and if so, can you help us do it?

A

um The only person I can think of would be like sam penado, the other sam, but I know he's been pretty occupied or something, but maybe I could still clean them. Maybe I could look for some resources, there's no action items, but just in case I'll, I might if I run into people I'll bring it up.

B

There's also this like program from gnome, I or or some project, which is like open reaching, which is like google summer, of course, but for designers like what is it called open, regi.

A

I think the cntf uh works with that one too right.

B

It's open, reachy right. I don't remember it's something like that.

B

B

Called but there's definitely a program for things like this, which is like more ux focused or like research focused, and maybe we can figure out. If, like you, want to put a proposal there of cncf is already a part of it.

A

Yeah yeah: that's definitely a good way to go about it too, interesting. Okay, you know what yeah I'll take that as an action item just to see if we can get some more design, ux help um what mentorship programs that might be available for us to.

A

B

Oh, it's called outreachy, not open, vg.

C

C

B

And I think this program is pretty open, so, like there's, no set of skills that you need to have so like google docs, whatever thing is for, like documentation summer, of course, is just like for court contributions. So 3g is like any contributions to an open source project, whatever they may be. So your skill set doesn't have to be like a technical like documentary, writer or a technical contributor. It can be anything.

B

So like it's, it's up to the mentors to define and call for, like certain set of skills.

A

I think are we at time for this movie we are, did you quickly want to go about the uh coda maintenance.

B

Yeah so like, uh we should probably create an epic to put over, like some tooling, to sync between the cartel code, our repository and the docs one, because with alleles for request, I realized that there's actually no great way to even test pull requests on katakuri, apart from whoever's making the pull request having to go and register their own repository on ducati. It takes like a minute or so, but it's it's not an automated process.

B

um Maybe as a first step, we should at least put a contribution guide on the carter, coder repository and add code owners, because both of those are missing.

B

So I can probably take that on and I'll probably put that as a checklist on the docs uh pr guide, as well so like when people are submitting a request on the docs repository. There's a checklist item hey like: are you editing one of the categories tutorials?

B

If so, either create an issue or a pull request to the car to call the repository? Meanwhile, while we're figuring out the automated tooling for it, yeah.

A

That makes sense. I definitely want to discuss you know since we're over time, we'll punt on this, but I want to discuss like more viable options like I was wondering if we could just embed catacota into the the website or or something else right, something where there's still only one place um to change stuff.

B

Yeah there there are options I think we may have to reach out to like the car dog customer support team. I believe cncf should have some partnership with them given like so many cncf projects have like the enterprise version of katakuri on their websites so that they can embed stuff, um maybe also something to discuss in the leadership meeting like if we can jump again, we'll.

C

Open for tickets and all that, if need.

A

B

Thank you. Sorry excuse me.

A

I was gonna say we can move the uh moving to video conference platform to working group, maybe yeah.

A

B

B