Cloud Native Computing Foundation App Delivery Special Interest Group, 15 Jul 2020

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From YouTube: CNCF SIG App Delivery 2020-07-15

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CNCF SIG App Delivery 2020-07-15

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A

Hey, yes, very weird, because this meeting is not in my calendar, I, don't know what happened, but it seems today we should have a signaling and but it's very short, because we only have one thing discussion, because we recently talking about updates the the landscape of things that, regarding through the application, management and delivery part, because if you look at the same current same same landscape, yeah, I kind of shared it with you about issue.

A

Right so so today, if you look at the current system, landscape for the application management part, it's it's kind of different from what we are seeing in community, for example. Database right now is part of the application definition and the development which this is. This is because that very beginning and the people think that if you want to develop a software list a base, but today obviously we have something like six right. We have six storage, they should be more.

A

It should be more popular to cover this database section and for the application to live apart. They do need to refactor the application definition, image build and CI CD part in this landscape. So the basic idea is that people are now told it is having TOC and in sync of light discussion and cincture discussion that we basically wants. You refactor this part of the this part of the landscape, but there are some civil proposals. One proposal is that we want to create in another tab here like sillies.

A

We may want to create another tab, which name is application, management and delivery, or we actually, the factor is carved to split it into multiple pieces and the database will be moved to a independent storage card. So this is the idea we are currently have. So, if you guys have any idea run to the landscape refactoring, please you can comment in the documentation. You can just erase discussion in this meeting so.

B

This is the only issue.

A

We want to discuss in this English signaling. Anyone has any ideas or suggestions.

C

So so I'm looking at this right and I'm thinking about applications and I.

B

C

It's called application definition and development, and so, when I look at this, I see somebody who's, building, stuff or preparing stuff to run as workloads right, so do like a workload in kubernetes you're, trying to get your application up and going right, and so this isn't so much for cluster operators or systems operators or any of that kind of thing. It's it's a practical.

C

How do we show this stuff up front for the people who have to build and operate stuff and I, like the fact that this whole category is on top because it's the largest potential group of people right, the people who build kubernetes and these tools are the smallest.

C

They know the most most intimately and the next above that you've got people who operate these tools they're the next largest group that manage everything, and then people actually use all of this stuff to run their the thing they care about is the largest potential group of people and so putting that at the top I really like. So when I see something like database and some of these other things I see. This is something that they want to use as a dependency. So if I'm going to build an application, I don't want to grab.

C

You know Maria DB and go manage it myself. I always just grab it as a dependency. I grab it as a sass from a public cloud or a service I grab it I for a long time. He's apt install to get it because I'm not gonna deal with my sequel or Maria or Postgres, or any of these things myself.

C

I want to get it from somebody who knows more, you get it as a dependency, and so, as somebody who's doing that, I want to get my dependency in a cloud native way right in a way that works best for my platform. What are the ways that work within my style and getting it into the dependency and that's a common problem that I think people have and so having it up front like this. Unless we break it out and say, here's different types of dependencies that are common, get it in a cloud native way.

C

I don't know that it want to put it and do a different section. Cuz, you want to make it intuitive right. Somebody who has to set up storage right so when I go to use storage in a kubernetes cluster I, don't know how its implemented a lot of the time and I don't care as somebody who's deploying my application into it. Usually I, don't care I might care if it's something like Ana and I'm. Gonna use a database because I'm not gonna have the kind of block level performance, but that's still really rare.

C

If I deploy my application into kubernetes running in AWS or kubernetes running into a sure, it's it's Auto provision for my volumes. It's the block, store, I, don't even think about the implementation anymore right. So when you're talking storage and you're talking database, it's kind of different target audiences right depending on the level, and so the level of abstraction here I'd want to keep databases in a way that says: hey, I'm, a person, who's, doing application development and getting my application up and running here, and this is where you get the dependencies.

C

That's how I'd like to see it broken up and done in a manner that helps them.

A

Yeah I think any point here so yeah it's actually depending on the I, think it's actually depending on the objection with a abstraction level about about these. Oh, you can just a comment in the doc. Yes for any interview what we have regarding to landscape a refactoring. So yes, actually.

B

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Only objection level, and so right now what I am I can get from this. The landscape is this death. This section is more target only I think only it's not only application developers, it's more like, like only data test developers or DBA, is to further soul, and they are indeed some some other project. Like data I check that project, it's more like a. It is actually a library for developers to consume the intent events, for example.

A

So there are also several different projects on this meat meat mixed together in this in this in this section, so we should think they need to figure out.

C

Yeah, because if it's for kind of more, if it's not at that application developer application operator level, then I would put it somewhere else, but if it is I'd want to keep it clumped together. So if I'm an application developer, an application operator, I can come to this one row and look across and see here are different things. That would be very useful for me without having to find it in some other row, mm-hmm.

A

Yeah I agree with you here and also can you think that we need to think with stick storage or rather this the refracting moon landscape? Because there are a large part here which are I. Think they're of universe, though so, where.

C

Is this document that they're doing it in this is actually a feed hopper repo landscape, repo they're doing it over in the register, repo in itself, yeah.

A

If you want to know.

C

Where that is I know.

A

And also another thing: is these streaming and a messaging part, and do you think it's also they concerned develop fourth operator? Always we put them into service Park, Service, Park,.

A

What do you mean? Put them into service? Part I mean sir. It is part there is already a service section, for example Khloe, but Khloe means it actually here it's not part of the 30 section, I, don't know we should talk to that part or we just the need. They don't know.

C

What is on the surface card offhand.

C

Because cloud events is a tool for people who are building applications and consuming. What's on the service rules,.

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C

Okay, I, don't even see where it fit over. Here, it's more like a specification. You'd want to use hmm who owns the server list. Page yeah I think the working group there, it is, is it okay? The server list working group still exists, yeah.

A

So right you can see here there are multiple issues. They belong to refactor this landscape, so I think the golden clear data they want to. You know how we have a section or a card or a page for application developers and all craters right right now. There are a lot who thing makes mix together in this application section which make people feel very confused and I'm reading this basket.

C

So you're thinking of a serverless page for application developers and operators, I.

A

Don't think somebody's picky we can have something like no.

C

I mean a page like the server this one I'm, sorry yeah.

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C

Server list one another tab, basically yeah, something like that.

A

But we also keep it in here: I, don't have any Pino that we've adjusted taught me the lowest and a parens data to have different ideas regarding to this, so we can do both sound I think we need to reconverge better. We want to go to which direction I think yeah, I think I can start a dog patience or we can just. We can just add Heidi earthing the email even notes documentation to released the options that we have here and how we do the refactoring.

C

Has anybody done a study or a poll or anything where we collected information from people who've looked at this site and done anything right, I wouldn't.

B

Want to go in a vacuum: I.

C

Actually want to look at what end-users have to say is any data been collected on that not.

A

Yet but I think it's a good idea and they should start something like survey. A poll people we have them improved regarding this is very good out here. Could.

C

We work with the CN CF to have a survey and then maybe have a link to that at the top. So people who come here could see fill out a survey and what you think and they could click through and then it could fill out and give their feedback yeah.

A

C

We can do that that might help us get some some actionable stuff, so us as insiders of the community, trying to figure out what people who come here to consume things are looking for we're probably going to miss things. We don't know what we don't know or where they're hard spots are because we already know how to navigate it. But if we could somehow survey them, then we might be able to collect some more actionable data and maybe some insights that we hadn't thought of yeah.

C

What kind of what kind of content do you think should be included in this area?

C

No off the top of my head I'd be curious, where others had to thought, though I think.

A

Also needed shaked some other examples from the other SIG's or or are the organization's encouraging how to do that, but yeah I believe it's a good idea. I know I'm thinking about sending out I'm still regarding through this landscape for a long time, I think we should simply do that and first day.

A

Okay, so yeah um animation. This is talking about to discuss today and I. Think we have the actions that we are. First have a place to comment, ideas and the the the options we have I think maybe we just do that only meeting of stock. We can tread section for discussion.

A

The landscape at the meantime, I will try to discuss my since day see if things that stock can help us to creditor, were it to get include from the community to help us to reshape this landscape, and the goal is that we want you to have a section, the banker in this page or in another tab which workers all applications, developers and operators instead of like today, mixing a lot of things together which like which makes people reading this landscape, North Dakota, understand.

A

Okay, okay and I will update the meeting notes, yeah see whom is also a commenting all this right here. So maybe you want to share it meeting.

B

Yeah, so for me, the application delivering management, the projects that contribute to a better delivery, maybe spread across different tiers, and there may be some networking project that may be helping or an application management and delivery. So it's a complex subject for me: I, don't know how to I cannot envision just taking the existing image, build and see ICT projects together and then refactoring them to be calling it as application management to be honest and bit confused. So it may be a good idea to start putting some new thoughts.

B

This delivery is becoming an important important subject. There are many new projects coming into this sake. There's errors that we represent infrastructure delivery across plane, operators right many things that are coming into this sake, so yeah. So it may be good idea, but that's just my opinion to have it as a separate tab and start having some good discussions there. Okay, thank you.

A

For include yeah I also really view here, and it's from my personal view, I think it's also maybe better to have a separate tab, and just that you mentioned, because there are many project, the closest hosting for scopes, and then I will also guess that we have. We will have a large number of the project which may be able to categorize them into different scopes. For example, some some are more for personal application, packaging, someone more for personally, more clothes, manliness, yeah yeah, but I got I'll.

A

Ask more people I try to give something, including that, because then they are also. Somebody raised a concern because they basically will move a lot of projects from the front page of the landscape to a different cap. In that sense, so they're not sure how we keep the front page of the landscape.

A

Attractive I mean there are a lot of become a bit. We will move a lot of project from that page to another page, so I will I would try to deflect and collect the even from and even cited card. Today. Okay,.

C

Here's a question so because I don't want to keep the landscape attractive, I want to keep it useful and that that's kind of hard I'm wondering if the CN CF has any user experience designers.

C

Those are folks who could look at who the users are. How do you craft a good experience to present information? That kind of thing yeah.

A

I'm not sure about that, but I think we can ask Amy regarding to this issue. So basically, if they have any designer- or you look people to give us in clues about how to make this thing as a mission, useful, obviously better experience. At the same time, yeah.

C

I'm wondering if they've got somebody over there cuz. You know this is all the Linux Foundation, which means there are people in corners somewhere who know stuff. If we could, if we could maybe find somebody who's better at at information architecture, and that kind of thing than we are, it would be. They'd come up with something better than I would recommend. Mm-Hmm.

A

Yeah, of course, okay I'm. Alright, um these actions in the keynotes and try to apply, pin even people who are interested in this section, and so hopefully we can have a new new shape to landscape. You may maybe mix masks, okay. Well. This is what we try to read what we wanted for us to post porters on discussing in today's meeting under sure. If anyone else have include or stress strength or idea regarding landscape.

A

Okay, so these things we are hopeful here and let's just finish this very quick- stick actually we're making out with exact essica in Mohammed II, and the older record will be uploaded to youtube later and thank you for your participation and and see you next time. Bye, bye,.

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