Cloud Native Computing Foundation App Delivery Special Interest Group, 24 Mar 2021

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From YouTube: SIG App Delivery Operator Working Group 2021-03-24

Description

SIG App Delivery Operator Working Group 2021-03-24

A

Hello, I was starting to think I'm the under one call. Oh.

B

Let's see how many people will join us for.

B

B

But it seems like there are not much much issues on the content side on the right.

A

B

A

A

A

B

Very very much and very much comments out.

B

B

B

Okay, so jennifer will also join us.

B

She was in the wrong time.

B

C

B

C

B

It seems like you were in the wrong time, so aren't you.

D

Well, the clocks change in the uk only I think next week, so they I realized. The cncf calendar is kind of following some u.s time zones like and then they changed to summertime before uh europe. I think so, uh I'm it is a number at five right and I and I didn't have I don't have it on my calendar. I don't know why, like it's gone, but I know it is at five, so I was yeah well.

D

I was going to double check back to the middle, but my meeting overran but anyway, I'm here sorry.

A

I need to check.

C

D

When we're changing.

D

They are going to change, I don't know if it takes israel, it has.

A

Oh no, we changed in in two days.

D

Two days ago,.

A

D

A

D

Next week, like in the uk, yeah yeah same thing,.

A

I think we're attending on this friday. Yes, this friday.

C

Very strange, okay.

A

Oh, that's really bad.

D

That realization, that you have to wake up one hour earlier.

A

We're changing on friday, the day and the day before a big holiday.

A

Other people's problems.

D

You just arrived one hour late for work one day and you're like oh I'm late, sorry, okay, come tomorrow. Welcome.

D

How's it going.

B

um Yes, you're. Fine thanks.

B

Today, I I thought, we'd talk about some comments in the white paper from the reviews and try to solve them if possible, or to to add additional comments to solve the meeting and um yes currently, I think we have a pretty much a pretty good um amount of revenues, so I think uh three or four people at least um waited until now, and we had a lot of very nice comments until now.

B

um So uh let's say this way, it wasn't fundamentally wrong what we wrote. At least it seems so um so, let's, let's try to get this out. um Another thing because I think I've wrote it on this lecture on this lecture last week.

B

I'm not really sure how we deal with with native language, radios and so on, of the white people and.

B

To make this white paper a bit prettier afterwards, um have you got an idea or do you know where we could reach out.

D

Wait, what is the phase? Are you talking about just to check I'll open this schedule? Here? I don't have it's just I guess it's the one that reviews of like I basically like editor, like of, is that what people had in the um in the other white papers like what what did they do so it is the one that and stats narrative voices that the one you're talking about.

D

C

D

Who did that for like the security, for example, the security white paper? Was it somebody like who should do it? uh What will the profile of the person.

B

um I'll try to ping emily from the security music.

C

B

To find out the was a good ideas.

D

Yeah yeah yeah, I don't know if it should be someone from outside to have a different perspective. It can be someone one of us, but just one person two and then I don't know like yeah would be good to just.

B

I think at some point it would be nice if it's if someone would write you know whose native languages. This is because I think in all three cases and english is not our native language. Isn't it and therefore this would be would be pretty cool um yes and furthermore, but I will also talk about our talk with emily about this.

B

um I think we need some version of the white paper in pf or equally and I'm not pretty sure how uh who will do this or if we should do this by ourselves and so on and I'll also try to clarify this until the next month.

B

B

Okay, then, let's go to the.

D

uh The other procedures sounds like is there to verify with maybe thick security who did their narrative voice like.

C

D

Sort of person we should.

D

Search for not necessarily a person with the with that native speaker, but maybe someone who's has experienced, writing doing writing in english or has gone to university. I don't know about things like yeah.

B

That's all I'll try to try to find out how they deal with this and um yes, I will keep you in touch.

A

Cnc have, since they have something about content.

B

I think so to be honest, but I'm not pretty sure who this is.

B

But we will find it. Maybe sick dogs.

B

I've tried to approve as many as many things as possible or commit as many things as possible.

B

C

B

Just a second I'll share, my screen.

B

For that paper is very slow.

B

Introduce some performance.

B

Okay, so we have some some changed files, hopefully only.

B

B

B

D

B

D

At the things that you approved and um and are merged, or are we gonna look at the stuff? That's still pending.

B

No, we, uh we should look up over the things which are currently here so.

D

So it could be in the files changed in the conversation right. Yes,.

B

So it's I think they are so I uh um I don't want to talk about such things. They, I think we should. We should simply change them. um This is also already resolved, but there is a lot of things out. There is a large discussion and, um I think talked: do you have a plan? What we should change here.

A

uh I think we need to capture michael uh ideas, especially his second comment, which uh explain a little bit more a declarative idea, and then I think we should change the word domain. Specific knowledge to state.

A

But probably also capture some of michael moore, advanced explanation.

B

um To be honest, an operator deals with domain specific knowledge, and this domain-specific knowledge should be, in my opinion, specified in the declarative way. I'm not, and I'm not really sure if this is only a problem.

B

In terms of formulation and not.

B

A

In the content, so the domain specific knowledge according to michael is explaining, and I think it's reasonable is the domain. Specific knowledge is captured in the code of the operation, the api that exposes declarative, but that's not the domain. Specific knowledge that domain specific knowledge of how to run commands against resources are is actually the code in the controller.

B

Okay, I think I get your point, so um you thought about the content of the custom resource when you, when we we thought about the content of the custom resource when we, when we all wrote such things as domains, are declarative domain, specific knowledge um and the domain. Specific knowledge itself is written in the operator code, which is absolutely correct.

A

Yeah, that's what I mean that we need to capture some thought: michael ray's, but eventually change the wording. Yeah.

B

D

It's like what is declarative knowledge right that he's like asking like what what does it yeah, I suppose, because yeah we we have to be very clear here and I can be able to explain that and then, if it's bit okay, we meant this can't be confusing for people who don't never seen those things.

B

Yes and last thing uh with this, with the thing we've specified as domain, specific knowledge might be the desired state of the. uh So we should. We should um say that this is the desired state of this of the application or whatever the operator is responsible for yeah.

D

Should we assign this as an action for one of us to fail.

C

Yeah or we can yeah.

B

B

B

How do we call.

A

This clarify the clarity and declarative.

B

D

I guess it was language, maybe we wanted to put. I don't know like did we want to I mean this is correct. No, that's fine! That's fine! I was just saying like we normally use declarative language declare domain-specific language too, sometimes like the words but like maybe I don't know, leave it.

B

B

Is this clear enough.

B

So um the domain specific knowledge should be the operator code itself um and the desires it's the thing we made before.

B

So um let's see kind of configuration.

B

B

B

And I think we'll assign this to oma.

C

D

That's it yeah.

B

Okay, perfect, then we have a task.

B

Next time, I'll open up a new window, okay, so this was the first one. Therefore, we have a task now.

B

Perfect, okay, then we have the second thing.

B

B

Nobody else read this. This is true.

A

Yeah, that's once again.

A

The idf, where we capture things I.

A

The problem is, we took those two and put it in the controller. Then an operator is just a controller. Yes,.

B

Okay, so I think this is also a thing we could handle in this task, because this all this also has to do something with um domain specific knowledge and so on.

B

Should we create another task for that.

B

Because do you want, I think.

D

Sorry I was just saying that each each of these ones could be at a different task and then we can either like if, if omer feels comfortable to do this one, because it's similar to the other one we can assign tomorrow. But I could also try to do something as well here like.

B

I think in this case it's the same sections or the same okay, so so these are two paragraph paragraphs under each other, so I think this would be okay if we.

D

You could add the the link to this comment, then, to the task that you created before.

A

What do we want to do here? Do we want to move those both to the controller or do we want to just change the main specific knowledge to desired state, because.

B

A

D

I guess the bit that is here is just like the domain. Specific knowledge is part of the operator, uh but the domain specific knowledge is not what describes the state of the application.

D

It is just that that's a bit confusing it's merging both things.

B

I think if the quads the same then the previous thing, because we also wrote out the specific knowledge that describes the state of the application in the current way, and this is exactly the same thing as before.

A

So you want to say that an operator pattern consists of components. One is the controller. The second is the declarative api, which is the state of the application and not the actual knowledge.

B

So this is the desired state of the application.

A

Yeah, and does it also consist the application or infrastructure that it managed or that's part of the controller.

B

A

Because very semantically.

D

The controller also uh manages the state they state. Isn't that trying to reconcile this state and ensure it is.

A

Yeah but the state can live without a controller.

A

Yes, we I can put the state there, it will just do nothing.

D

Yeah you could it's the like, you can have a type like declared that there's nothing.

B

But you can also read those with other controllers.

D

But the controller yeah, but you can have a like, is I don't know if it's like the type that is attract? Basically, I don't know if I can call tractor by the controller that ensures that it has a state like yeah. So when we say state, I think that's what we're talking about right. The thing that is tracked by the controller, because it's being reconciled and watched.

A

Yeah, so we have a state, we have a controller. The question is: is the application, then the infrastructure, part of the controller or part of the pattern as a pattern.

B

So um let's say we have, we have a configuration. This is the thing we have in the custom resource. um We have a controller which is the domain specific knowledge and we have managed objects.

B

So all the infrastructure could be a managed object.

B

Well, I I uh afraid about uh how how someone could name this.

B

I cannot remember what they called.

A

This once again, we can say that the infrastructure or the manage services can live without the controller, and that supply is that it should be part of the operator pattern and not the controller description.

A

B

um I think uh I think we are hitting the whole discussion so when, when is a controller.

A

B

um As we as we discussed uh um earlier, this is the only difference is the is the type of work of operates. Let's say this way, so um it's only about um operator things um which an operator would typically do. I would typically have done about 10 to 15 years ago, um so this is the this is the theme how I how I can remember what an operator.

D

Yeah, but not every controller is an operator. I think.

A

I'll also try to describe that in the comment and and continue the conversation around, that I'm suggesting.

B

A

Some solutions.

B

I think the main point in this in this um comment was that we also used that we, then we mixed up the domain, specific knowledge and the decorative, and I think we should um we should change this.

D

Yeah maybe like try to write it again, maybe without looking and then looking. I don't know some that theory thing that if you want, I can try to write these three components and suggest or something if you want to tag me there to like suggest yeah just maybe because then it's a new like fresh pair of eyes in that, but maybe yeah.

B

D

If you could add me just as like we'll try to something or or if you prefer to put me in the other task because, like I don't yeah it's easier just just at me and then yeah we chat, I could have to do something.

D

We'll try to rewrite the suggest something like that. Yeah.

C

Another suggestion.

D

Basically, a fresh pair of eyes yeah. I think.

D

That it wasn't clear but like it's just like we tried to make this, let's see a new like a new idea, maybe.

A

That was so surprising to see that I will fix that.

B

um I think this one is a uh which, uh which I created.

A

The the I I created this one, I it in a better way. I didn't even know how to use get a black model. Okay,.

B

Then then you will.

B

B

B

It seems a bit easy to say, custom resources which are defined because the news's definitions. Why.

D

Capitalizing, okay, I mean like he says, maybe maybe if you capitalized it, it would be more like.

B

um But um I've saw that we have the same thing with the main specific knowledge here.

D

I mean, I think, if you, if we just put custom resources with c r, with the b yeah like with the capital, it shows its specific kubernetes term and then custom resource definitions as well, and then I think that would so resolve.

B

It I think we could. um We could remove the thing um which are defined by custom resource definitions.

D

Or put them with, like together, camel case kind like the way so and then with the back ticks, so it shows like I don't know if you we are doing this pattern here. No, maybe not vectix, because if the other parts of the white paper are not doing that, I don't remember.

A

uh I think we need to change that. The word domain specific the knowledge there, but let can we take that question back to sig docs, that's really um how to write top question.

A

C

A

Took over nettie's.

B

B

um As I wrote, this was that um you are dealing with custom resources and they are defined by custom resource definitions, so these are two different things in this way, um but for me it would be perfectly fine if we um as it's pretty obvious, um if we did, if we remove this this one. This is this part, because then it would be more or less clearer. Previous.

B

Because I think we talked really a lot about custom users, definitions in the live.

D

Paper well in well my opinion. It's it's not really! It's just that. It's not clear that this is the specific kubernetes thing, because it is not written in the like kubernetes way, like custom resources, definitions.

D

If it was like that it would be understood that it's just saying like there is an actual denomination for that in kubernetes, and that's like an object that you define.

D

But I am happy with either I'm not if you prefer to remove. I don't think it's actually. I don't think it's so obvious. That's what I mean like, because people who are new to this will not necessarily know that you will declare with custom resource definitions, but if you mention that, maybe I would have to read the doc if it's already been mentioned several times. Maybe you already know, but if not it's it's not a problem.

D

To put it there.

D

C

Like he said, you would put a link.

D

Yeah and, like the guy said, put the link like custom resource definitions and then people can, you know, refer to the.

B

B

Okay, so we have a new issue, so this was number 100.

D

So many shoes 100 issues.

B

Okay, this is this.

B

B

B

um Yes, I think we could simply add this.

A

Yeah, what will happen if you press on the tip.

B

Then you could say.

D

Or beyond, yeah like beyond the boats.

A

B

B

So we would add, in addition to the default uh custom resources and used to.

D

We could add, as a suggestion now as well like and then just yes.

D

Me and think, like put, we could put beyond beyond the default kubernetes api.

D

And then we can tag the guy say: okay,.

B

B

Why is this clear enough? Why should we change.

D

That we said beyond, instead of, in addition, what do you think.

C

C

um Custom resources are used to store and retrieve structure date in.

C

B

I think we'll ask him if this is what he meant.

D

Yeah, if that's okay, yeah, we can just add him in the reply now.

B

The desired state, I think, that's also also a big.

B

B

Because the domain specifically logic, is in the controller and not when we see any customers.

C

C

Of the application or the resource.

C

B

D

Would you put that with a capital r to be like or we don't? I want your opinion because I mean what they are like. Is that when we talk about resource, do we talk about? Kubernetes is a specific thing, um or can I just talk about resource as.

B

I think at some point it's better if we could, if we talk about resources.

D

Okay, I asked a question like about: should the resource be with the capital? R or not like is is resource thing when you read these or write this meaning a cubanerity specific thing or a generic general thing? This.

B

Is more generic? I think, because the resource could also.

D

Be they need to be something different from a kubernetes specific thing.

B

So I think this would be enough.

D

Okay, yeah, I I don't know the answer is why I'm asking because it was like I was trying. I couldn't think of something that wasn't a kubernetes thing like either a custom resource or a pod, or uh you know so.

B

D

So if it was something could be something else, maybe some other api, then I would just use lowercase, but if it is always a kubernetes thing, I don't know I I would put capital r. I think I just it's not there not telling anyone, because I don't I'm not sure about it.

D

uh No, I was going to put a capital letter.

D

I would put a capital r, because I think that there could be. I.

C

D

Maybe maybe I am maybe I'm being silly, but let me look cuban urges resources, do they do they use capital or, like? I thought it was something it's resources yeah like?

D

Maybe not. Maybe you you just forget about what it is.

B

Let's try: let's see what what comes babe no.

D

It's okay, don't worry it's it's! It's in lowercase! Forget everything I said anytime, I'm reading here on the documentation. um When you specify the resource level lights, I know yeah. I think it's it's with the lower case. So don't.

B

Okay, let's change this okay.

D

B

Maybe okay, then the next one um I'll simply do.

C

B

B

um Yes, we could. We could write that we found that this could be applied with keeps cue cuddle apply. But, um yes, I don't think it's necessary at this point.

B

Okay and uh he wants to yes, so um he wants to represent.

B

That's also true, because um there's also statuses inside- and this would also would also would be the complete custom.

B

B

To be honest, I think this sentence is important enough that we that we should keep it.

A

D

So if we think that I I haven't finished reading but like we could put the comments there as well, so then at least to like why and then we can. You know if there's a more kind of like a concern, not consensus, but like democratic things would be like okay, the reason it was no, it was nothing no word. It was just that thought about it and I think that and then, like.

B

A

Well, we're gonna say that we'll take another look in the narrative phase.

B

um To be honest in a in a perfect world, it would be obvious to um that that the baker that makeup you make is also restorable, um but in the last 20 years I had cases where this was not not the case and therefore it should be mentioned. Is.

A

There also a restore capability.

D

Who do we uh put perhaps like so this backup should be implemented in a way? Maybe so then, like I don't know if it would help so like this backup should be done in a way. It feels like.

B

Although, although it's I don't.

D

Know like does the backup needed to do anything to do with it can be restored and restored like what is what is in the implementation of a backup that thinks about risk? Well, although okay, if you encrypted the backup file and that it cannot be decrypted or something like that, maybe but then it's like well, you know what I mean.

C

Like I'm talking about like.

D

When would what would I be thinking about restoring in the implementation of the backup? I don't don't see like.

B

You could also think about you know, I'm not sure if this is the basic use case, but you could do a backup use a randomized file, name and don't know which which file fits to which vector.

A

Is that a backup, if you cannot restore from that.

B

Obviously, you could restore from that, but you won't find it so this this would be one case.

D

B

So, as I said before, it's pretty obv the sentence is pretty obvious um but, um as I said it's a bit it's a bit important to to to define to uh not to defend this to state it. But um if you think it's more obvious than I think, then we could also simply drop it.

D

Well, I just I, I think it's okay to to have it to have it there if we think this way like what we want to con. That's the thing what they this person thought was that there was nothing useful about this like, but you think to me that there is something useful that is that the implementation of the operator, backup functionality should be considering the next thing because of the domain knowledge that is there.

D

You know like and then an an obvious example, is a backup and restore where you would you have to ensure that, when implementing a backup, your restore can discover that backup file.

D

So I think it's worth perhaps changing this sentence to ensure that that's understood that the implementation of one thing that that the the knowledge there is important uh so that you can guarantee some next thing. That needs to be done to I'm not sure very clear, but basically like we can put that in the sentence. I think you want me to try to to suggest something. Then I can. I can get something.

B

I mean I want to.

D

Change, I I mean I'm just trying to think now, like maybe that's like, like I said so, this backup should be implemented in a way that ensures that it can be restored, like that, it's restorable that the file created or that the artifacts produced I'm trying to think about, like maybe ways toward it, in a way that there is some useful information, because it is useful information.

D

Omar made a face, I don't know if he's like.

A

A good argument.

B

Okay, um yes, there's a there's one, one handwritten diagram of of chong there. um I think we should change this and I will.

C

B

Oh yes, sometimes andy stated that we could write a section about the shale operator.

B

I also told him that he could, if he wants, but to be honest, I won't force to set them at the moment.

D

uh Yeah, you did right, I think, just like. If you think this would be great, he could ask me.

B

B

A

B

So um roland wrote that the steps to the first step, when you try to give the right operator is that you should not assume that you know what's needed and whatever he meant there at some point, sometimes he's a bit too low. So he lost it so quickly.

D

Yeah perhaps he could refer to this requirement engineering to not be just something like a loose sentence right you could suggest you see, should it maybe like as a something like as a.

D

Forest or something like that.

C

You want me to say I'll, just yes,.

D

Yeah, I think we could make it clear that it is some some discipline kind of thing rather than make it.

D

D

Would you like me to write the comment for him to suggest that, yes,.

B

This would this would would be pretty funny. I.

D

Will I can I.

D

Like the guys willing to do.

C

D

The where is his pr pr is here I will. I will just share just as soon as I yeah.

C

Bear with me bear with me.

C

C

um I was thinking like, would you mind.

C

Making the refinement engine.

C

C

C

Now so you read.

D

D

Isn't, like I mean just, it doesn't seem too smooth.

D

It doesn't seem so.

C

Like out of the.

D

um I I'm very I'm very careful with like reviews like because people I don't like to like hurt people I'm like.

C

D

C

D

I'm like just it doesn't seem too random kind of thing. I don't know like what do you think like.

B

um I know orlando pretty well, I started with him and he he has no problem with such comments.

D

Okay, cool yeah, because we don't know anyone I mean I don't know these people in the community, so I prefer to be always very cordial like and and like don't dismiss their. I don't think yours was but like I was just thinking to maybe make it even more. I prefer to make sometimes extra cordial just to um in this statement.

D

Okay, I'll comment: that is, that, okay, do you want to be perfect.

D

So we can right, so I guess the next thing ah this is the same thing is already. We already saw this one right this one I saw I'm going directly on the on the thing will be handled.

D

This is the next one right.

C

An operator should report things later in the declarative way.

D

ah This one is already.

D

It is another one that you need to be re. Is that as a different one from that one.

B

So we chose the one I have.

C

Sorry, what did you say.

B

um I think we had some some different some. Oh, this is the same diagram but another review. Sorry.

D

This is another review, so we'll we'll add, do you want to do them all, then all the diagrams? We do.

B

So this is, this is already done. uh We all already handled this. It's the same diagram.

D

ah Okay, so the is this, so can we can we can we like resolve? This is resolvable? Can you do this.

B

um I'll resolve it after I've redraw the diagram.

D

Okay, that's fine! So so I can leave it as it is now.

D

D

Okay, these are we already done this.

D

um Sorry, maybe I'm looking at the wrong screen, because I I normally go through the main pull request comments here. Did we do this change here? The wrong.

B

That's because I'll I've already written, I will do this.

D

Okay, we already fixed this. We already added this okay and this as well this as well. Okay, so I think we did everything right, so I think that one do you want to change this? One are looking um who wants to learn? Yes,.

B

I will I will simply change this in when I do my my my stuff, I think we should do this at some point.

D

Okay, yeah, we can here, I can add the yeah okay. I guess we have the actions for us, then we can close this part. It's already one hour. Okay, that's perfect!.

B

B

And yes, I think we have enough enough action items and yes.

A

Thank you. Thank you all.

D

B

D

B

D

B

Have a nice week.

D