Cloud Native Computing Foundation App Delivery Special Interest Group, 16 Sep 2020

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From YouTube: CNCF SIG App Delivery 2020-09-16

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CNCF SIG App Delivery 2020-09-16

A

Hello, this is harry and uh welcome to the uh seek up delivery meeting. We don't have a lot of agenda for today's meeting, uh I'm still waiting for uh more people to join and always is also over there. So if anyone wants to introduce yourself uh to the seek- and it's really welcome.

B

I'll I'll go ahead and say hello, because there's other people on here that I don't know I have been here before, but it's been some time: cornelia davis, I'm the cto at weaveworks.

A

Oh, uh congratulations for a new move by the way.

B

Thank you. It's good to be here.

A

Okay, so since we are now familiar with each other, and so let me give a quick update on today's agenda because we're talking about uh some updates uh regarding to the some working items in the city gap theory, um so the first update is regarding to oh. Let me share the screen.

A

So we do have the uh first update which, which is regarding through the uh c-gap delivery landscape. Oh, I will call that the cnc after the landscape, so I will add a little bit background here, uh because uh if you look at today's scenes of landscape, you will notice that there is a section which name is uh language name?

A

Is application definition or management of something which is really confusing, because it included, for example, database and storage as part of the application, and it also had a very high level category or classified regarding to the components in the application delivery ecosystem. So we began to figure out that we need to find a way to refactor this part of the landscape.

A

The high level idea, which we also proposed to toc and got feedback, is to create a new tab, so it will create. We will try to create a new tab on the landscape, which name is like uh application delivery, or something like that. It is quite similar to what serverless have today. So it will be an entire new tab, including the um the several categories uh listed in the uh dictionary of c gap delivery.

A

And uh so this has been um proposed to toc and we think I will go into this way, but this does not solve a question which also, uh I think already a lot of discussion recently is about.

A

How can we find a way to explain what's inside this landscape, for example, there's something there's a project in the landscape, but how can we explain to any users what is projected used for, and when should you use that so this is right now for for now is out of scope of the c gap, delivery landscape, but we also think it's um it's a necessary thing to do for our next working item. I think also. I also think that alloys have some feedback on that, so we will.

A

We will probably probably discuss regarding to that part next meeting. I don't know if the law is returned today, so we will discuss about that. So the eventually I think the goal is that we want to publish a white paper.

A

The white paper is sponsored by c-gap delivery and cncf, which will try to expand what is happening inside this landscape. What is exactly a project is focusing on and how end users benefit from that. So this is a quick update from the uh synthetic application delivery landscape. I think the next action is really trying to draft a uh proposal uh or for the for the landscape, github repo, um to highlight a uh a sing, a simple version of how the new tab will maybe looks like that will be the next uh action icon.

A

So this is first update and the second update is regarding to the working groups- and uh I just also talked with alloys regarding to that. So we noticed that the working group, the working groups- I mean- I have actually two working groups- the first one is the operator working group and second one is air gap, air gap working group.

A

So we notice that the two working groups didn't make a lot of progress in the possibly months, and I think we also think that um there are some blockers uh to continue the existing discussions in the working groups. Some of our some are related to the operator technician and some are related to the best practice. Perspectives of air gap, environment, application delivery. So we are proposing that we move those discussion back to the stick.

A

This is a general idea, I'm not determined yes, so we just uh just think about that. So we also would like to see uh what do you think uh if we move the discussions in the working groups back to six, so we can focus or we can gather people discussing on those discussions instead of placing them into different meetings? What do you think any ideas regarding to.

B

B

I mean is: is the lack of progress? What what is that telling us? I mean the whole reason that we spun off into those working groups was because it seemed like it was pretty specialized, and- um and so did we disprove that hypothesis that there was enough interest to do that. Is it lack of interest. I mean, I suppose, that's some of the analysis that we need to do like why. Why are those things stalled.

A

Yeah, I think one observation I had have recently is that so the reason we actually moved, those discussions to a separate working group is actually because those discussions actually raised. A lot of you know I will say conflicts in the uh meeting, so a lot of things are cannot be fixed. A lot of things cannot be determined. So every time we have a discussion, for example, related to the operator definition, it may be lost like one hour that is that usually had before.

A

So those discussions already need to find a place to be tankled with the expert from the operator ecosystem to fix that. But that's why we actually created an open working group to discuss that topic, but the recent progress is which is unrespected, because I think the community began to think about okay.

A

This may be an issue that cannot be solved by simply discussion or publish the white paper regarding to that, because there are different interested parties, for example, uh red hat there have there are people from corey's before and there are people from regal. There are people from microsoft and they debate with each other, but it seems very hard to reach the conclusion. From my perspective, I don't know how we can fix that, but I think the first step we want to do is move the discussion back seek, so we can see what's happening there.

A

Maybe you may want to stop some of the discussions or just or just um you know, try to publish something and to explain what's happening in the related to discussion. If you check the previous discussion, it's pretty it it's pretty long in in the seek of delivery uh mailing list, but I don't think there's conclusion regarding that part.

B

So I mean from a personal perspective, I love the idea of moving it back into this thing because, as you know, I it's difficult for me to make even one meeting every two weeks. It's even more difficult three meetings, every two weeks and so I'd love to have those topics discussed in one forum, um it'll be interesting to see. If we end up back in the in the pickle that we were in, which caused the spin-off, which is now it consumes the entire agenda and it's contentious.

B

But, like you know, it's it's hard to argue with the the logic here as well.

A

I see yeah. This is also uh what we also think about that, maybe on to fergus people on the same meeting, I mean on a single meeting instead of lately discussions uh in multiple meetings, it's really hard, especially considering a lot of people, are working from home. They have a lot of meeting every day, so it will either handle the discussions regarding to that part. Okay, thank you for the input.

A

So another discussion is regarding to the air, gapped application delivery working group, and this is actually a very interesting topic. We mentioned that uh several times before.

A

uh We also think it's a very useful uh tool or very useful technology regarding to the application delivery ecosystem, but that in that part in that working group, I my observation is that it's still not quite there, so other people have their own way to do air gap, application delivery, but the thing I think we think we think it's missing today- that how can we do that in a common way or is there? Is there already technologies for that or we want to pro or we have to propose something to solve that problem?

A

So I think the issue is still very early stage and people have different ways to do their own air gap, delivery in different environments. So I don't know if you guys have you folks have any experience regarding to air gap, application delivery and whether we want to? How can we move this direction forward, especially make it become a mainstream discussion or mainstream topic in this ecosystem?.

C

Yeah, I think what the group was working on is collecting a number of best practices, how people are doing it. I think they were not like super successful doing this. I think there's one example in there still, um but having more examples of people who are actually doing this and engaging with them is.

C

Would definitely be helpful there, I'm just not sure how we get people to really do this. This is also maybe something with the end user community to engage who wants to share best practices. uh What they're doing I think it's less about.

C

I think we're not at the stage where we write that one white paper. This is how you do your gaps deliveries. I think we are more at okay. This is what we did. This is what worked. This is uh what did not work. This is what we're doing, but with what we don't like doing on a more anecdotal point of view, but, unfortunately, historically uh yeah. I think we we also didn't have a lot of of uptake uh for for these meetings.

C

There were a couple of project presentations, um but I think that's what we're kind of like struggling a bit with now that we don't have and generally the project reviews so much to like getting this disengagement model model going, but I think it would still be worth um it has been on the agenda for a while.

C

How maybe people in the telco uh seek work with this, because initially this was coming from the telcos, but that would be good just collecting trying to get that number of examples up that we have available it's just funny, because the reason why this working group exists was last year's north american kubecon.

C

uh That was the primary feedback that harry and I got. Can you work on air gaps? So we started to work on air gap then it seems to be, I think, below that critical mass momentum um that that we have right now.

C

I think active outreach is probably the best uh that that we can do here and telco might be. Our first stop- and uh I can take this this as an action item reaching out the other. What do you think cornelia? What we could do.

B

Yeah, no, I agree and I'll tell you from the weaver's perspective, um as I'm sure you can imagine.

B

We think that git ops plays a role in air gap um and we actually have uh customers folks that we're working with some some, whom are quite public uh deutsche telekom, for example, speaks publicly about the work that they're doing with flux and those types of things, and we have a great relationship with some of those telcos, and so I'm sitting here, listening and and you weren't on earlier, when I kind of semi, you know had an awkward apology for not showing up to these things for quite some time.

B

I'm renewing my my lock on my calendar for these meetings.

B

um I would love to work on this uh and put some cycles into it, because we we have customers that would be very keen um that we can represent so yeah.

B

I think we should work on this and I think you're right. I think telcos is a really great place to start.

C

Yeah so then, actually I mean, if you could maybe get some of your customers interested to to present and maybe share that success story. We have a document in case you I'll put it in the meeting notes later or you can reach out to me directly if you can find it what the working group had in there and I'll reach out directly to the telco seek regarding this. So maybe we can, I think, for us, it's like really building up momentum right now.

C

I think we are in a like weird time right now, where, as harry mentioned, a lot of people a lot of meetings, so value creation is more important than ever to get people into yet another zoom call, and also making content consumable in a different format is, I think, helpful.

C

So, okay, I'm taking giving myself an action item. I think that's also a lesson learned for me to some extent. In the past we were just talking about stuff, but not action.

C

C

I'm just tapping up the notes.

C

C

Sorry, I missed your name yeah. Luckily, google is smart, um yeah and yeah. I think that's good. Just let's try the movie there.

D

C

I mean one thing that could also easily be done.

C

Is just posting it on the tlc mailing list at some point, if you really want it to work, we have some used cases and we want to do more.

C

uh It might just turn out to be a bit of spam, but it's currently not super active and if people are really working on those topics, we might also get some feedback there. So I know that a lot of people have. I subscribed to the sick, sorry to the tse mailing list.

C

It's not what it's actually intended for, but there's not that much going on uh right now and we also might get more visibility for this. But I think having a couple of presentations already available is good, because once we reach out to people and say hey, we will toner talk about this. It's good to say. Well, there's already three examples in there where things look like.

C

It's not just like inviting them over to the desert of documents, and let me find the document right.

C

A

Yeah, I just also mentioned the operator working group. I don't know always you have any feedback or ideas regarding to that part.

C

So if you look at the operator working group, uh they'd like to operate the dark, so does this whole thing started with the cncf one thing as a new operator definition that goes a bit further than the one that's currently in the kubernetes um documentation, which means which motor states, it's the crd and the controller behind it, two to be more specific. uh What to do there? We have this document and I think it just needs at least that final push to get it to a v0.5 release.

C

I think it has just been sitting around like this is again to some extent more in the chorus area just going over this document and saying okay, this is what we came up with, so that we feel comfortable sharing this on the toc uh in in the upcoming tuc, update and also back to that see what they think about it.

C

uh The the problem, I kind of had why this wasn't moving forward, because we always go back to like these fundamental discussions and they go very far from we say. Well, we don't want. We want to include use cases. We want to include this tool and then it goes all the way we had discussions like it went all the way up.

C

To well I want to talk to my non-technical cto and explain to them what an operator is, because I have to write it and he kind of tells me. I don't have to do this because kubernetes is doing everything anyways. I think we can solve all problems for for for everybody honestly I'd love to, but I think we can't so.

C

First of all, I think the document number one needs clean up and uh I think I'll just get a good glass of wine and just do the cleanup of this document. This is just accepting exactly accepting edits and then at the very beginning, I think we all should have this discussion we can put in the next agenda item.

C

What do we really want to achieve? And my intention at the beginning was somebody is writing an application on kubernetes they're here they heard about operators and they want to understand what they should be using them for or whether they should not be using them for.

C

But it like became this thing that was like this constantly moving target and uh I'd really. I would like to make the discussion what's the most valuable thing for people uh to to know when it comes to operator what are the questions that people usually come up with and what they they don't understand.

C

I'm trying to find this document I haven't, I also have to admit I haven't opened it in a while honestly.

C

But number one when I find it I'll.

C

I really look into just getting it to the point where uh yeah there we have it uh that we can review it and discuss it the next time- and I think maybe that's the best approach I'll, try I'll work on cleaning up the document share it on the mailing list. The next meeting we get to a conclusion what we want to have in there and what we don't want to have in there like this, really felt something that kept going in circles and whenever we had some uh written something down.

C

Somebody in the group came up with. No, we can't do it that way. We have to go in an entirely different direction and that will never get us to a point where we reach a document uh that that's that that's of value to people out there I mean I don't know what you think, what what the value of this document would be at some point, it could be a guidance on how to implement certain things, because I think certain things are highly unclear how to do it.

C

Ideally, with an operator there are a number of best practices that could be condensed into, like microsoft has a good one, how you should split out things into different operators yeah. I think I've been going a bit back and forth here, but number one cleaning it up and I think, being really clear on the purpose of this document and then then getting the work done. I think that's why it kind of got stuck because it was at some point, frustrating writing something. Somebody said no.

C

We have to do something completely different and obviously me not even being able to find it right now.

B

Yeah and I just dropped a link in the chat, but it's not.

D

B

That was just a couple of user stories.

B

um It isn't the doc that you're referring to.

C

I'm going through that that's the aircraft, one yeah.

B

I'm going through the meeting notes trying to find it.

B

um It doesn't seem to be linked from the notes. Oh mailing last.

C

Yeah, I can also take this as some homework. I think document should be easier to find if we want uh to.

D

Reach right on the chat: was it this document.

C

That's the document from great, I think, that's the great document.

C

Yeah, that's the user story from crazy, so let's just yeah. I think we can all agree that that we should have like this one page that we go to where we find all those things and it kind of doesn't exist, and that should be.

C

Fixed but we didn't, but I haven't been in a.

C

C

I don't know how many people know this, but we actually have a github repo where actually all of the things could be linked to I'm just posting it in here, and I think that's the and obviously we have ear gap in there. That's where we would find it, but we don't have.

C

D

C

Operator pieces in it, that's why you found that document. Hopefully,.

B

This works your stories yeah stories here, but I did not.

C

C

I think that's also the only one that exists honestly.

B

It's the only document.

C

Well, there's a character and there's this one here so.

B

B

B

Oh yeah, I found it, did you just find it too.

C

I think I'm checking out this project right now, just creating and reading md and I'm just posting it in there. That's what.

B

That last one I.

B

Operator definition, working.

D

C

So what I just did in the repo.

C

I just created a documents: md file, I just created the documents.

C

And I'm going to paste.

C

Things in there.

C

Yeah, I think we have to do some and thanks for helping, we have to do some housekeeping.

D

C

That should also help people to to engage yeah. That's the working document and it has a lot of comments, and I think it just needs some.

C

It just needs some some cleanup and yeah.

B

There we have it.

C

Director of non cooper need this company to understand what an operator is. Is this really our goal? Yeah.

B

I mean, I think, that that's a lot of unclosed comments means that we haven't reached consensus.

B

C

Yeah, so what I I will do I'll go over the documents and see like some of them. You could easily accept there's just some text, formatting stuff in there and I'll at least comment to all the people.

C

Also, some people never followed up like now. For example, matt was complaining about the helm description and then asked him. Okay, please can you just make it make it to what you think it should be, and then people are also not replying back so I'll go over it and uh I'll do some housekeeping there as well.

C

I think whenever I type a link, I never know the 100 correct syntax in in markup.

C

I feel like I always get the braces.

C

C

Yes, so I'll work over this and try to create also some engagement and um should be then posted posted to the mailing list to also get it beyond that. The document.

C

So this is where I started to put some some dogs and obviously some more cleanup work to be done.

C

A

uh So I actually personally feel it's very hard to reach any conclusion only operator definition documentation, because uh the different interested parties actually have different opinions on that. So it's not hard to reach a accurate conclusion regarding to that definition, and that's my personal opinion.

C

Maybe that's also our feedback at some point. We tried it and we can't reach a conclusion.

A

Yeah, we can also write down that. The conclusion is that there's no conclusion, because everybody have deep opinion regarding.

C

Today, that actually might be a fair conclusion at some point.

A

Yeah, it's true. I think uh there are multiple issues there, so the operator itself should not uh go into the way that compete with something like helm or texture management, but somehow the red hat go to that direction.

A

That actually already creates confusion in the technical part, and we can't solve that problem. It's a decision that operator folks made and, on the other hand, uh helms should definitely focus on packaging management. Instead of trying to you know, fix the day two operations issues, so they too are are overlapping today.

A

That's why? If you want to make clear separation between those two by something like operator definition, I don't think it actually works.

A

There is a related topic which is actually a github, so I actually think about githubs for uh several times. So I do see there are a lot of possibilities to improve the interoperability of the detox tools. I I noticed that flux cd project trying to working something only fluxley 2, which defined as several. I think I will call them building blocks, for example, how to interact with it, how to how to interact with helm, how to leverage customize, how to drive the state machine of the uh detox workflow.

A

So they it basically splits etobs into multiple building blocks and similar effort also happens to the uh argo cd part and they already split. Some image name is adopts ng and uh I think they're also discussing about how to define.

A

I will call them standard interfaces between git and the reconciling control loop in server side, how to define a bunch of standard interface between the different renders, like helm, customize cue, and how to add your own contents to do that. So I don't know if any, possibly that we can uh involve the anchor in a secret protection delivery and uh is anything we can help or especially when reworks folks are actually in a meeting. So I also hope to see if any ideas, according to github's work,.

B

Yeah, no, I think that's it. I think that's a great idea. What's interesting is of course we you know air gap, we're interested in that operators are an important element of doing get-outs, the right way and so they're related to all those things.

B

But I think what you're bringing up is the possibility that git ops be kind of a first-class entity that we discuss as opposed to a second class as a part of uh air gap and as a part of operator working group and all of those things, and I think that I think the time might be right to do that.

A

Yeah yeah one one trend. I I actually I'm thinking that, essentially that github's passed with a plus with the ci pipeline. If you combine them together, you are actually we I mean the the whole ecosystem, actually creating a fresh new ci cd workflow around the cloud native technology stack it it can be compared to something like spinnaker, but it's fully based on cloud-native technology and it's separate ci and cd and you beat the source of truth at the center and it's encourage interact. It encourages interoperability instead of a monolithic stance.

A

I think that is the right direction to go. It's something that secretly we want to endorse, and to advocate I mean, but how can we do that? How can we make this? Seek I mean make the community engage more in this I mean git ups projects and these ideas, uh it's something that we want to think about, and I know that reworks are doing very real here, but how can we do that more? I mean more collaboratively with the community. I think that is also one direction. We're thinking about.

A

It's really important to me.

B

A

Likewise um yeah this is ideally, I have uh just to say. This is some ideas. I have how to make this thing: collaborate more in the whole community.

A

There are some topics I think, indeed that needs the um involvement from the community as well as the community, also to use more. So this is something that we want to look at want to look at.

C

Yeah I mean what what we could, what we had in the charter at some point is what also goes into like this whole discussion. Right now, where everybody says the cncf landscape is way too complex. There's like a million tools, I don't even know what to do with it.

C

um Having this idea of a test. I had this idea in fact that we have some kind of like a test bed where we would use technologies and we could plug them in for different things, and this could go together nicely like we could have one where we say. Okay, we want to combine, for example, oem with githubs and we'll just even fit together, like we start with very atomic building blocks and then we're trying to build also the reference model that you define here here.

C

We start define more like complete, end-to-end, uh more or less examples, and I think people will be contributing if this is something where we have like these test, pads on the uh the app delivery um uh or referenced, why they were where they seek, and most of them have tutorials anyways.

C

So this is nothing where people have to to start from from scratch like, for example, the the flux tutorial. Is it's pretty much uh available um out of the box like how to getting started with specific things and then trying to combine things together?

C

But it's like at that point combining oam with a git ops type of approach is kind of interesting as well.

A

C

Would you do yeah? I agree.

A

Yeah, I agree so so. What what is this well looks like it looks like a white paper or some, uh so how? What is outcome? You know my I I'd.

C

Like the outcome, I ideally to be code, be code, you mean samples and demos yeah, so we pick a. There are obviously uh a number of very famous sample applications and even if we start with a hello world one or at least two well and okay, let's try to use this with this approach. Let's try to use it with this approach, and that has.

B

C

And we really say to your starting point, what you always get is say two or three images on docker hub and the basic kubernetes primitives to deploy this application and now show how your project adds value beyond that, because if it doesn't add value beyond what I already have and I just keep control apply stuff. Why would I be using it as an end user.

A

I see I see a point here yeah. This is really interesting because it's actually a good place for uh application delivery. Stick to host a I mean something like a sample or demo repo to show the user cases for how people use different technologies and how what's best practice to use certain technology. I think it's also much better than something like a white paper, because I don't even pay a lot of time to read those white papers, but I do usually you want to run.

C

A

C

That'd be really interesting, and also, but back when we discuss what we want to do. A lot of things are not part of standard demo applications which you want to be part like secrets, management or.

B

C

Credentials management, like everybody, is using this: the sock shop or hipster example, which is great it's a bit too big. As our experience is, we we only use a subset. We only usually use the card service because we do multi-stage deployments and then it gets like kind of expensive to run it in three or four stages for for a demo, but.

B

C

Aspects of what people have to ship are not really in there, or um also like the multi-stage one, for me, is the one that we're dealing with very often so how do we manage like? We have like one application definition. We have to deploy to multiple stages which have different configurations, and how do we handle an update? How do we separate these kind of things like, I think, having it's almost like a challenge? We create like an application, a very simple one.

C

It doesn't need to be complex, just need to have like these things in there and that's really. How do you? How do you like handle this challenge? How to handle this one?

C

I think that might be uh might be something interesting. Obviously, we have to write something. I think the code is not going to be super challenging. This can't just be a hello world that asks another hello world for its text, so maybe it's uh two times ten lines of go code, but something I say well, but we want in this case the back end to be scaled ten times and five times, and here we want it to be blue green deployed. How do we do even specify this?

C

And here we want to do this, and then we can work on scenarios and people can experiment and show their solutions, and I think that could be then really something that is value to the cloud native uh community at harry. That's actually, where we're going kind of like with the uh that the talk was admitted for uh kubecon or north america, like really using projects to do different things and asking what people are dealing with, but I think we have to bootstrap it.

C

I think we have to really bootstrap it and come up with two questions and ideally find people who we know who would be interested in doing it to get like this initial momentum, because we try to have this, let's reach out to the community and ask them to to do something that was always a bit challenging when, when nothing is there, but what we could do, we could like tackle one problem and then like build the sample, or maybe we just write it up.

C

But samples are great because people like I would like to run a sample and sometimes it's easier to just see the actual code and then read a very long white paper. We can then easily publish about it. We can use cncf distributions to help to reach more audiences, and I guess people see ah they're solving the use case that I'm having and also. I think you will get deaf real people from various open source and commercial companies to also contribute, because, usually that's what they do say hey.

C

Why are they showing this way of secrets management when we, for example, want to when hashicorp wants to see how vault can be used there, and suddenly they have an example: how to be able to do it involved, and you can ideally build up a a library or all that was expected, that we've had an opinion on how how github should be done? So I think they would.

C

uh I hope they would find the resources to then contribute that wouldn't make it like super complex, I'm just putting it out there, but you think it makes sense to try something like this. It's.

B

I love it. I love it sample applications code code always speaks volumes.

B

That's a great idea.

C

And then the meetings could also be interactive. Somebody can do a demo and say I have to demo it also for the future project. Okay, this is the problem that you're solving show it uh based on the sample application, not the sample application that you have, but like eventually, our reference application just show us what you can do.

C

There, but now we have just to put it out to volunteers, to get the first one running I mean we have sock shop and hipster shop. So, as I mentioned, my only thing is they're too complex in the amount of services that they're running.

C

If you want to do especially multi-stage scenarios, they're a bit resource hungry honestly and they don't cover all the aspects.

A

Yeah, that's a really good idea. I can contribute some resources regarding through the uh demos and samples, um because we internally actually did a lot of demos. I can actually trying to ask those folks to contribute those back to the community and if you want to have some, you know first round of demos and we are very happy to contribute.

C

That would be amazing, I think that, and then we really have to actively share it out. I think this: if we have the demos, I think we should cut the videos.

C

I mean not as professional, usually as you do it harry harry is actually a magician with videos. You can trust me working with him.

A

C

Keep that to sticker, I'm just saying you're great you like the james bond of making videos uh and yeah, then I was like share it on twitter, um make it easily more easily available. I think that's definitely something we should be doing and trying to get more reach. That would be great. Let's start with the demos. The cleanup work is great as well, and maybe then next time come to the conclusion. What we do is this operator dock, maybe.

D

C

Leave it as it is today, if we don't find cam any conclusion, it's going to be still a crd and a controller.

C

That's as good as you get sorry.

C

C

B

We ended up talking about a bunch of really good stuff.

C

Now we just have to get it done. That's always the challenging part here.

D

C

We just have, and we have to put it into the notes, that's what I'm doing. That's what I think finishing up. The notes is what we should use the last 10 minutes for, and I think harry the two of us have no beauty and the rest for you. If you were giving 10 minutes back of your.

C

C

B

B

B

Okay is that it for today, then that's.

C

It yeah that that's it for today we're just.

B

Gonna take the notes.

C

Right in here, that's.

B

C

B

You don't have to watch us typing.

C

B

Enough then, thank you. Goodbye.

A

Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.