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From YouTube: Art as Code 9/29/21
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A
A
A
A
A
My
name
is
bart
farrell
and
I'm
very
happy
to
be
with
you
here
today
to
do
a
special
live
stream,
not
just
because
it's
the
first
one,
but
it's
the
first
time
that
we're
really
going
to
be
tackling
this
topic
of
art
as
code,
and
where
does
this
idea
come
from?
Well,
the
idea
is
relatively
simple:
we
see
a
lot
of
overlaps
between
folks
that
are
technically
gifted
and
also
have
an
underlying
current
of
creativity
that
they
would
like
to
express
and
sometimes
don't
get
to
express,
perhaps
all
of
that
creativity
in
their
jobs.
A
So
we're
trying
to
do
here
is
to
create
a
space
where
all
are
welcome
and
free
to
share
their
experiences
of
working
with
any
kind
of
arts.
We
say.
Artic
could
mean
cooking
can
mean
literature,
it
could
mean
music,
it
could
be
dance
or
it
could
be
whatever
your
definition
of
it
happens
to
be
you,
let
us
know
and
we'll
get
you
on
the
show
before
we
get
started.
Just
have
a
couple
of
announcements,
couple
of
reminders
of
things
that
are
going
on
as
we
get
closer
to
kubecon.
A
I
hope
everyone's
signed
up
for
kubecon,
but
we
got
a
lot
of
stuff
going
on
cloud
native
tv.
We
will
be
live
in
los
angeles,
I'm
not
in
los
angeles,
currently
I'm
in
spain,
but
I
will
be
in
los
angeles
as
well
as
of
october
11th
and
I'll
be
hosting
a
wrap-up
show
at
leonardo
morillo
on
the
13th,
where
I'll
be
focusing
on
different
people
of
latinx
backgrounds,
who
will
be
participating
in
kubecon,
but
there
will
be
wrap
ups
every
single
day.
A
Apart
from
that,
we've
got
some
very,
very
exciting,
really
good
programs
that
are
coming
up
on
october,
4th
we've
got
nana
goes
to
kubecon
if
you've
seen
lauren
kubernetes
with
nana.
You
know
that
she's,
an
amazing
teacher.
She
creates
amazing
content,
so
she's
going
to
be
coming
on
next
week.
We
also
got
a
spotlight
on
the
collocated
security
security
date,
so
there's
gonna
be
security
tag
that
will
be
fun
to
october
5th.
On
october,
6th
we've
got
cloud
native
live
and
a
cncf
face-off.
So
you
definitely
check
that
out.
A
If
we
get
some
live
trivia,
then,
on
the
seventh
we've
got
a
pregame
show
with
priyanka.
So
that'll
be
fun
too,
to
hear
directly
from
priyanka.
What's
going
to
be
going
on
this
kubecon,
what
her
plans
are,
but
once
again
you
can
check
out
all
the
schedule
you
can
check
out.
You
know
here
on
twitch
with
the
click
up
schedule
for
all
the
different
programs
that
are
going
on
coming
back
to
artist
code.
So,
as
you
can
see,
I'm
not
alone.
A
I
saw
that
nilly
made
some
amazing
slideshow
presentations
for
for
somebody
else,
and
so
I
reached
out
on
a
whim
saying
hey.
Would
you
be
interested
in
participating
in
the
day
on
kubernetes
community
as
an
artist?
And
luckily
for
me,
nellie
said
yes
and
I'm
very
grateful
that
she
did.
She
could
have
easily
said
this.
Guy
is
crazy.
She
would
have
been
right,
but
she
did
say
yes
and
since
then
has
been
working
as
our
visual
learning
coordinator
in
the
date
on
kubernetes
community
benelli.
B
A
And
that's
me,
that's
good,
and
what
a
coincidence
that
you
have
some
jellyfish
perfectly
placed
behind
you
also
a
nice
little
touch
of
art,
but
if
you
want
to
check
out
an
art,
that's
nellie's
created
for
our
community
check
it
out
on
twitter.
You
can
jump
in
our
slack
she's
done
amazing,
amazing,
stuff
and
one
of
the
things
that
I've
always
emphasized
there
and
will
be
interesting
to
interact
with
our
guest
on
this.
A
A
little
bit
further
is
the
fact
that
a
lot
of
these
concepts,
if
we're
talking
about
cloud
native
kubernetes,
you
name
it
all
these
sort
of
open
source
projects,
a
lot
of
times
are
sort
of
difficult
to
get
your
hands
on.
They
are
abstract
concepts.
They
can
be
difficult
to
understand.
So
art
in
our
community
has
been
one
of
the
ways
that
we've
made
these
things
more
tangible,
more
accessible
and,
by
extension,
more
enjoyable.
A
So
if
people
have
a
connection,
a
link
with
something
that
feels
like
an
emotional
rush
or
something
that
made
them
happy
or
smile,
it
makes
it
easier
to
be
in
those
environments
and
engage
with
things
that
sometimes
see
a
little
bit
tricky
or
might
be
a
bit
of
an
uphill
battle.
That's
one
of
the
reasons
why,
as
well,
you
may
or
may
not
have
seen
we
do
a
lot
of
music
in
the
date
on
kubernetes
community.
We
do
a
lot
of
raps
to
bring
these
concepts
to
life.
A
So
once
again,
so
people
have
different
associations
with
them,
rather
than
just
a
concept
that
might
be
tricky.
We
make
it
a
communal
effort
and
by
doing
so
and
allowing
people
to
share
things
they
do
in
their
free
time,
but
in
these
spaces
in
these
contexts
we
find
that
it
creates
a
a
stronger
bond
between
the
people
that
are
participating
and
speaking
of
the
people
that
are
participating.
A
I
was
thinking
about
what
are
all
the
metaphors
that
we
can
use
in
this
first
one,
and
I
know
I
hopefully
won't
exhaust
them
too
much,
but
our
guest
today
is
going
to
be
telling
us
about
collage
and
what
would
be
a
perfect
example
of
a
collage
than
the
cncf
itself.
We
have
people
from
a
diverse
range
of
backgrounds.
I
say
that
as
someone
who
did
not
come
into
with
a
computer
science
background
nelly,
your,
I
believe
your
academic
background
was
also
not
necessarily
based
on
computer
science.
It's
something
you
picked
up
later
in
life.
A
Counts,
that's
an
academic
background.
That's
an
academic
background,
yeah
yeah.
But
what
I'm
saying
is
this
is
that
we
all
come.
We
all
arrive
here
because
of
different
reasons,
and
so
we
have
people
that
speak
different
languages.
Last
night
it
was
on
the
cloud
native
tv
program
with
leonardo
and
three
other
latinx
folks
speaking
spanish,
about
different
stuff.
That's
going
on.
We
have
people
localizing
documents,
a
different
country
in
in
different
languages,
there's
more
and
more.
A
If
you
need
to
really
kind
of
open
our
eyes
and
not
just
think
about
a
traditional
I.t
or
computer
science
background,
because
we
see
people,
we
also
have
lots
of
great
work
being
done
as
well
too,
and
in
the
cloud
data
business
group,
it's
being
led
by
jason
and
catherine
they're,
doing
an
amazing
job,
making
this
a
very,
very
big,
inclusive
10,
so
that
lots
of
people
can
participate
so,
like
I
said,
an
easy
way
to
sort
of
take
advantage
of
the
word
collage,
but
we're
going
to
hear
a
lot
more
about
collage
in
a
lot
of
depth
from
our
guest
today.
A
So
our
guest
today
is
lorraine,
aka
atomic
mutton.
You
can
check
her
out
on
twitter
check
her
out
on
twitter
right
now
and
follow
her
lorraine.
Thank
you
so
much
for
coming
and
being
here
with
us
today,
lorraine
is
also
community
manager
at
time
scale,
but
most
of
all
lorraine.
How
are
you
and
who
are
you.
C
Okay,
yeah,
as
you
said,
thank
you
very
much.
I'm
community
manager
at
time
scale
and
I'm
probably
at
the
opposite
end
of
the
the
tech
thing
to
nellie.
That's
because
I've
kind
of
I've
been
through
a
lot
of
different
kind
of
roles.
I've
kind
of
landed
with
yay
I've
landed
with
community
manager
now,
but
I've
come
on
a
background
of
being
an
oracle
dba
for
many
years,
been
an
oracle
developer,
led
a
dev
team.
C
I've
kind
of
had
a
lot
of
those
kind
of
experiences,
and
one
of
the
things
I
really
love
about
your
program
actually
is
the
whole
kind
of
the
creativity
and
and
tech,
because
a
lot
of
tech
is
very
creative
and
there's
a
you
know,
kind
of
the
the
curiosity
that
you
need
to
have
a
long-term
career
in
tech
and
the
creativity
that
you
need
to
address
problems.
You
know
that's
all
kind
of
has
a
lot
of
parallels
with
kind
of
art
and
with
any
kind
of
art.
C
You
know
you
have
to
learn
the
ropes.
You
have
to
get
everything
you
have
to
go
through
those
experiences.
You
have
to
understand
your
tools
before
you
can
become
kind
of
truly
creative.
If
you
see
what
I
mean,
and
it's
then
that
you
become
like
the
artist,
whether
that's
like
a
coding
artist
or
whether
it's
like
an
art
artist
and
having
something
that
you
can
kind
of,
also
like
an
alternative
passion
for
me
kind
of
it
kind
of
my
alternative
passions
change,
but
always
having
some
kind
of
other
thing.
That's
going
on.
C
It's
just
kind
of
like
healthy
is
the
way
I
feel
about
it.
So
that's
kind
of,
and
of
course,
it's
very
evident
to
you
know.
Even
if
some
you
know
other
people
may
kind
of
check
in
from
a
purely
coded
background,
go
you
know
the
cncf
data
on
kubernetes
things
is
a
bit
kind
of
crazy
off
the
wall.
What's
going
on,
it's
not
my
normal
kind
of
take
on
tech,
but
I
really
admire
kind
of
like
where
you're
going
with
it.
C
Actually,
for
all
of
these
reasons
and
kind
of
making
people
realize
that
they
are
being
creative,
even
if
they're
kind
of
coding
and
learning
the
ropes,
so
they
can
become
the
masters
and
everything
that
they're
of
their
art.
So
I'm
going
to
try
not
to
do
too
many
torturous,
analogies
recoded
but
hey.
Let's
see
how
well
that.
A
A
A
You
know
if
we
really,
if
you
start
asking
around
and
and
seeing
all
the
different
influences
and
backgrounds
that
people
are
bringing
to
the
table
that
influence
the
way
they
do
things
and
how
they
solve
problems,
particularly
as
well
one
of
the
things
I
really
recommend
to
everybody
as
soon
as
possible
work
with
people
from
different
countries.
It
opens
you
up
in
so
so
many
different
ways
to
question
your
own
beliefs
or
things
that
you
hold
to
be
true,
not
in
a
negative
way,
but
just
really
really
understanding
different
ways
of
approaching
things.
A
B
Yeah,
I
was
going
to
say
that
I,
when
you
were
saying
something
about
the
other
people
from
other
countries.
The
first
person
that
I
liked
here
program
coded
with
was
a
friend
I
made
that
was
in
romania
and
we've
kept
in
contact
this
whole
time
and
I've
learned
so
much
from
every
conversation
with
her.
We
talk
about.
You
know
romanian.
She
tells
me
about
things
there,
I'm
like
wow,
that's
so
cool!
You
know
I'll
tell
her
something.
She'll
go
what
so,
yes,
working
with
other
people
from
other
countries
is
huge.
A
Much
much
agreed
now
lorraine
to
get
into
the
meat
and
potatoes
of
today's
talk,
so
we
got
we
got.
We
got
an
outline
here,
but
you
know
you
mentioned
that
you
know
working
as
an
oracle
dba
developer
things
like
that.
Okay,
so
we
got
that
that
kind
of
start.
You
know
sort
of
established,
but
can
you
give
us
more
info
about
how
you
got
started
with
art?
Where
did
this
begin?
How
did
this
begin?
Who
is
there?
When
did
this?
You
know
the
spark
happen.
What
was
that,
like.
C
Well,
I
said
actually
that
goes
kind
of
a
bit
way
back.
I
have
to
say,
and
my
first
a
kind
of
conscious.
Well
not
my
first
conscious
encounter
my
first
thought
about
kind
of
artist
being,
like
a
professional
being,
you
know
doing
that
kind
of
work
as
a
job
was
actually
with
college.
C
When
I
was
kind
of
hanging
out
with
graphic
designers,
and
I
think
that
probably
had
a
great
effect
on
me
in
the
long
term
you
know
kind
of
like
I
was
doing
a
business
course
and
they
were
doing
like
this
much
more
interesting
stuff
over
there
and
it's
like
what
you
need
to
make
money
out
of
doing
art
what's
that
all
about,
and
so
that
that's
kind
of
like
where
a
light
interest
started
and
then
in
terms
of
like
physically
creating
things.
C
As
I
say,
I
always
kind
of
have
something
else
on
on
the
go
and
for
a
long
time
I
worked,
I
was
working
in
tech
and
working
in
restaurants
at
the
same
time,
which
was
kind
of
almost
just
for
fun.
Don't
ask
me:
I
yeah
I'm
going
for
punishment.
Yeah,
let's
go
and
do
some
waitressing
math
or
dana
cody.
C
You
know,
but
anyway,
that
that's
kind
of
and
but
later
on
kind
of,
as
I
was
freelance
for
quite
a
long
time
with
oracle-
and
you
know,
being
a
freelancer
people
move
on
and
leave,
and
I
found
myself
kind
of
making
little
books
for
nearly
everybody
who
left
where
I'd
collect
together,
whatever
they'd
been
collecting
or
doing
in
their
work
and
then
would
get
photographs
of
everyone
on
the
team.
Stick
them
on
and
and
start
to
make
kind
of
little
stories
for
them
when
they're
left.
C
So
that's
kind
of
when
I
started
doing
stuff
physically
with
kind
of
art
things.
It
just
became
a
thing
that
I
give
people
their
little
story
as
they're
left
with
photos
of
everybody.
They
worked
with
kind
of
built
into
the
story,
so
that
was
kind
of
some
of
the
some
of
the
kind
of
direction
I
came
from
and
then
I
actually
started
doing
a
craft
seriously.
When
I
had,
I
had
two
pet
sheep.
C
C
I
had
two
pet
sheep
to
keep
a
horse
company
and
they
the
horse
hated
the
sheep,
but
that's
an
altogether
different
thing
and
it
was
kind
of
taking
the
police
off.
I
was
like
what
the
hell
am.
I
gonna
do
with
this
wall,
so
I
learned
how
to
be
a
felt
maker,
because
you
do
you
know
I
was
kind
of
like
no.
We
have
to
solve
this
problem.
There's
a
coding
thing
for
you
straight
away.
You
have
something
you
have
a
problem
to
solve.
C
A
A
You
know
dichotomy
of
tech
versus
business
and
who's
on
which
side,
but
I
think
that's
another
sort
of
application
as
well,
and
I
invite
everyone
whether
it's
the
example
of
having
two
pet
sheep
to
keep
a
horse
company
or
any
other
element
in
your
life,
to
try
to
think
about
how
you
can
make
those
connections
where
seemingly
there
are
none
anyway.
Sorry.
C
Continue,
no,
I
know
you're
you're
fine,
because
I
I
mean
it's
kind
of
a
and
what
you
say
making
money
out
of
that
thing.
Yeah
I
mean
that
is
one
of
kind
of
my
little
outings
in
time.
I
was
kind
of
a
semi-professional
felt
maker,
probably
for
about
five
or
six
years
and
actually
felt
making
has
kind
of
elements
of
collage
in
it
really.
You
know
the
other
thing
that
I
would
say
to
do
with
kind
of
coding
programming,
and
I
think
that
everybody
will
identify
with
this.
C
Is
that
there's
a
constant
need
to
learn,
everything's,
always
changing
and
so
getting
into
a
mindset
of
lifelong
learning
and
doing
it
for
fun
as
well.
I
think
really
helps
you
along
that
route.
You
know,
because
I
mean
at
one
point
that
was
kind
of
like
with
oracle's,
like
not
another
database
version.
Really
I
gave
up
with
oracle
at
about
10
g
and
they're
now
on
21.
I
think
you
know
it
never
stops,
so
you
have
to
have
a
capacity
to
keep
learning.
C
So
if
you
can
learn
other
things
alongside
as
a
way
of
kind
of
making,
that
kind
of
constant
learning
a
more
positive
experience,
I
think
that's
to
me
that
that's
kind
of
that
lifelong
yeah
does
that.
C
Yeah,
that's
right,
and,
and
and
and
are
you
ever
happy
with
it
and
actually
weirdly?
I
think
that's
the
same
with
code,
because
you
could
always
actually
do
something
a
bit
better
or
you
wish
you
went.
You
can
always
wish
that
you
started
with
a
different
model.
You
can
always
wish
that
you
started
from
a
different
point
and
you
can
go
back
and
improve.
C
You
learn
something
from
every
project
that
you
can
apply
onto
the
next
one,
that
you
can
understand
and
have
a
deeper
understanding
of
what
you
just
did
or
what
you
just
did
wrong
in
order
to
make
something
a
better,
a
better
artifact,
the
next
time
around
whatever
that
kind
of
artifact
is
you
know,
so
I
think
that's
that's
a
definite
parallel
as
well.
Oh.
A
Very
strong-
and
I
find
this
as
well
too,
because
I've
played
guitar
since
I
was
18.,
which
doesn't
mean
that
I'm
a
super
accomplished
guitarist,
but
I've
been,
but
I
have
been
in
touch
with
it.
Well,
what
I
say
about
that
is
that
very
often
when
playing
guitar
is
that
sometimes
you'll
make
a
mistake
and
realize
that
was
the
best
mistake
that
you
could
make
because
it
unlocks
something
that
you
weren't
previously
aware
of
so
sometimes
your
brain
being
a
little
bit
clumsy.
You
end
up
hitting
a
string
or
playing
a
note.
They're
like
oh.
A
A
Little
accidents
and,
and
also
because
I
think,
sometimes
there's
so
much
pressure-
and
you
know
we
talk
about
this-
it's
fairly
common
to
talk
about
in
tech.
You
know
like
embracing
failure
and
things
like
that.
Nobody,
like
really
embrace
your
failure
and
also
understand
that
the
first
time
you
do
something
it's
going
to
be
a
pretty
ugly
mess,
and
you
look
back
at
it
five
years
later,
I'm
like
okay,
wow,
but
but
give
yourself
some
credit
when
you're
doing
something.
A
For
the
first
time,
do
you
really
expect
it
to
come
out
being
super
good
and
when
sometimes
like?
You
know-
and
we
can
also
talk
about
you
know
with
with
artists
that
nature
versus
nurture
and
practice
all
these
different
things.
Some
people
are
more
in
programming
as
well.
Some
people
are
more
naturally
inclined,
but
it
still
takes
practice
like
this
notion
that
someone
picks
up
some
paint
and
hits
a
canvas,
and
the
first
thing
they
do
is
gold.
I
don't
buy
it.
I've
never
seen
it.
A
I
would
love
to,
but
it's
the
same
thing
with
music
or
sport,
or
things
like
that.
All
these
things
will
take
significant
amounts
of
practice,
and
I
say
this
for
the
young
folks
that
are
out
there
there's
a
lot
of
people
in
a
lot
of
hurry
like
I
want
to
learn,
kubernetes
right
now,
it's
going
to
take
some
time
and
there's
going
to
be
some
trial
and
error
in
that
enjoy
the
process.
So
that's
that's
kind
of
what
I
focus
on
there.
Lorraine.
A
C
A
A
No,
no!
No,
no,
no
just
just
everybody
knows
we'll
be
sharing
a
dropbox
link
after
this,
with
all
the
artwork
that
that
lorraine's
gonna
be
covering
so
no
worries
there
nelly.
If
you
want
to
take
the
next
question,
go
for
it.
A
A
B
Yeah,
so
I'm
wondering
like
I
know
you
do
collage
is
there
any
art
that
you've
always
wanted
to
do,
but
you've
never
had
the
resources
the
capability
to
like?
Do
it
like,
like
marble,
sculpture
or
something?
Is
there
anyone
that
you've
ever
been
like
intrigued
by,
but
never
been.
C
Able
to
do
I
I
tell
you
what
I
think
the
capacity
to
do.
I
mean
there
was
there's
things
like
kind
of
you
know,
having
the
equipment,
for
example,
to
do
pottery.
You
know
having
the
kilns
and
things
like
that.
That
was
that
side
of
things
and
that's
a
whole
investment.
You
know
I'm
very
good
at
investing
things
and
then
thinking,
oh,
my
goodness,
you
know
I
haven't
used
that
for
three
years.
So
what
I
was
gonna
say
actually,
though,
is
more
my
capacity.
C
I
mean
bart,
touched
on
it
kind
of
the
impatience
to
be
good
at
things,
and
I
think
that
I
kind
of
nearly
everything
that
I
end
up,
choosing
to
do
has
relative
to
other
forms
of
that
craft
or
are
instant
gratification
involved.
You
know
so
with
collagen
you're
not
having
to
wait
for
paint
to
dry
with
felting.
C
You
know
like
I
I
can
kind
of
with
felting,
I
could
make
say
a
bag
or
a
hat
in
maybe
three
hours,
whereas
with
if
you
wanted
to
knit
it
or
design
it
and
sew
it.
You
know
knitting.
C
And
it
is
that
kind
of
patience
you
know
and
tortuous
analogy
coming
along
again,
but
you
know
is
that
kind
of,
like
the
patience
to
see
how
to
make
your
stuff
better.
You
know
the
patience
to
work
out.
Okay.
That
was
the
pattern
that
I
just
kind
of
coded:
a
sql
query
in
yeah.
A
C
A
C
Mean
so
for
sure,
in
terms
of
answering
that
kind
of
question
I
would
say
there
are
things
that
I'd
love
to
be
photography.
There
you
go,
I
would
love
to
be
a
really
good
photographer,
but
all
of
the
intricacy
of
understanding
all
the
different
settings
on
the
camera.
You
know
when.
Actually
I
can
just
pick
this
thing
up
and
do
a
point
and
stick
and
I've
got
a
reasonable
photo
yeah.
I
don't
think
I'll
ever
be
able
to
do
that,
but
I
wish
I
could
I
do.
I
really
do
wish.
I
could
respect.
A
Respect
to
all
the
shout
out
to
all
the
photographers
out
there
and
people
that
are
able
to
do
things
that
take
a
lot
of
time,
because
I
completely
identify
that
with
that
as
well,
and
it's
funny
that
my
friend
who's,
helping
me
here
is
that
we
both
produce
hip,
hop
and,
and
so,
but
the
thing
is,
is
that
I'm?
I
lack
the
patience
like.
A
C
A
Blessed
as
a
very
patient
person
and
can
sit
down,
but
that's
also,
I
think
the
other
thing
is
there
too,
is
complementary
skills.
If
we're
talking
about
you
know
like
a
team
in
tech,
because
it's
so
common
to
work
in
teams.
Is
that
you
really,
if
you
have
five
people,
that
all
are
what
we
can
kind
of
say
like
us,
that
just
really
want
to
get
things
done
quickly.
That's
not
a
good
thing,
but
you'll
also
have
people
that
only
have
a
long-term
vision.
So
I
think
that
that
also
speaks
to
that
kind
of
balance.
C
A
Of
us
have
probably
done
collage
in
some
way
or
another
in
school.
I
remember
being
you
know,
you
know
10
years
old
and
you
bring
a
bunch
of
magazines
and
you
cut
out
clippings
and
of
course,
you
find
the
most
inappropriate
pictures
you
possibly
can
and
put
them
together,
but
the
thing
is,
like
I
said
I
think,
there's
sort
of
a
misunderstanding
about
where
collage
comes
from,
what
it's
all
about,
so
lorraine.
Can
you
kind
of
school
us
on
that,
like
okay,
everything
you've
heard
about
collage
is
kind
of
wrong.
C
C
Arguably,
although
there
is
kind
of
some
evidence
of
it
slightly
being
before
those
those
guys
and
from
then
on
it's,
you
then
get
to
the
darda
news
movement
hannah
hawk,
there's
a
lot
of
collage
in
all
of
those
kind
of
early
20th
century
kind
of
art
movements,
they're
kind
of
expressionists
and
kind
of
no
I'm
going
to
look
for
my.
I
won't
do
that.
C
This
is
one
of
the
kind
of
first,
the
first
kind
of
times
I
got
really
in
love.
C
Excited
by
collage
and
that's
that
was
kind
of
an
expressionist
kind
of
okay
maker.
So
a
lot
of
the
collage
has
been
to
do
with
communication
and
kind
of
underground
art
and
kind
of
there
are
kirch,
twitters
and
oh
mezzan,
I'm
going
to
forget
his
name
now,
but
you
know
there
were
a
lot
of.
There
was
a
in
the
30s
in
the
late
30s
in
germany
just
before
the
second
world
war.
C
The
there
was
a
whole
kind
of
anti-degenerate
thing
to
the
extent
that
they
had
a
degenerate
art
exhibition
that
was
put
on
by
the
german
government
at
that
time,
and
all
of
the
artists
that
were
involved
in
that
exhibition,
a
lot
of
whom
were
collages
had
to
flee,
because
it's
a
really
easy,
easy
medium
is
a
very
easy
medium
to
be
or
to
make
those
kind
of
like
kind
of
statements
like
it
lends
itself
very
well
to
like
political
and
underground
statements
and
kind
of
protest,
art
and,
and
that's
what
really
interests
me
about
it
actually
is
the
whole
kind
of
political
protest
are
the
the
the
obviously
hidden,
because
you
can
get
a
beautiful
painting,
and
you
can
study
that
for
hours
and
hours
and
again
this
this
is
patience
coming
into
it
again.
C
I
think
actually
for
me,
because
you
can
un
unpick
the
messages
very
gradually
and
understand
them
and
see
more
and
more
in
a
very
beautiful
painting,
but
actually
a
lot
of
collage
is
in
your
face,
because
it's
about
protest
and
it's
about
a
kind
of
political
messaging-
and
you
know
kind
of
it
perhaps
starts
with
posters,
but
then
has
the
kind
of
the
whole
underground
movement
associated
with
it.
So
I
think
that's
kind
of
the
fascination
of
it
for
me
and
it
comes
through.
C
All
these
kind
of
anti
programs
and
kind
of
the
groups
have
been
very
much
of
the
underground
and
the
kind
of
surreptitious
pasting
of
posters
in
in
places
and
just
being
kind
of
that
kind
of
rebellious
edge
to
them
and
that
has
carried
on
throughout.
You
know
and
I'd
say,
there's
been
kind
of
a
peak
in
interest
again
in
you
know.
These
things
come
in
kind
of
ways.
B
C
Know
everything
kind
of
comes
in
kind
of
bits
and
ways
as
just
tech,
different
kind
of
lever
that
one
in
again,
but
you
know
kind
of
collage-
has
kind
of
been
having
a
moment
for
the
last
few
years
and
it
tends
to
you
will
kind
of
tend
to
see
it
kind
of
ebb
and
flow
with
the
state
of
the
world,
because
how
much
people
protest
and
how
comfortable
are
they
so
things
like
zines
and
kind
of
you
know
those
kind
of
like
cutting
things
into
pieces
and
being
angry
at
them?
C
Almost,
I
think
I
kind
of
mentioned
to
you.
This
kind
of
like
one
of
the
things
that
I
enjoy
from
it
sometimes
is
that
that
whole
kind
of
cutting
and
tearing
and
sticking
together
again
and
making
something,
maybe
quite
ugly,
can
be
quite
personal
instead
of
going
onto
twitter
and
kind
of
having
a
go
at
someone
over
there.
Do
you
know
what
I
mean
just
get
yourself
a
magazine,
tear
up
a
few
pictures
and
kind
of
make
them
look
ugly,
then
throw
it
away.
You
know,
that's,
probably
a
better
way.
Nobody
gets
hurt.
C
You
know
you
can
do
it
that
way,
so
so
yeah
I
mean,
and
I
mean
some
of
the
kind
of
the
the
kind
of
artist
that
I
really
enjoy
and
picks
up
another
book.
A
C
Pictures
to
show-
but
you
know
yeah
peter
kennard-
is
an
official
war
artist.
I
mean
this.
This
book
is
like
devastating,
because
it's
just
a
lot
of
it's
kind
of
very
it's
just
like
pictures
and
numbers
and
kind
of
like.
B
C
C
This,
probably,
I
think,
he's
probably
started
in
the
60s
he's
easy,
as
he's
kind
of
is
he's
an
older
fellow
but
he's
kind
of
started
in
the
60s
protesting
against
nuclear
war,
really
that's
kind
of
like,
but
I
think
this
is
one
of
the
pictures.
I've
actually
got
in
the
in
the
kind
of
set
that
I
shared
but
kind
of
the
missiles
on
the
hay
wave.
C
You
know
because
the
uk
being
a
nuclear,
a
nuclear
nuclear
country
where
you
use
those
words
but
yeah
and
and
a
lot
of,
I
think
my
kind
of
work
and
my
kind
of
thinking
because
of
all
this
influence.
You
know
I
tend
to
be
very
kind
of
post-apocalyptic
kind
of
in
kind
of
the
images
that
and
they've
gone
incredibly
out
of
fashion.
C
Actually
it's
like
you
know,
kind
of
what
she
put
in
kind
of
nuclear
explosions,
all
over
kind
of
bits
and
things
that
she's
sticking
together,
but
actually
even
that's
kind
of
coming
around
again
now,
isn't
it.
You
know
we're
kind
of
starting
to
worry
about
if
we're
kind
of
heading
headlong
into
some
awful.
C
C
A
Well,
I
think
a
few
things,
the
cathartic
notion
of
cutting
something
I
relate
to
this
a
lot
because
of
my
mom,
who
I
will
definitely
want
to
have
on
this
program
at
some
point
is,
is
has
worked
for
many
many
years
with
ceramics,
particularly
making
mosaics
and
for
her,
and
she
had
a
lot
of
good
reasons
to
be
to
to
what
an
outlet
you
know
the
act
of
breaking
things,
smashing
plates
and
tiles
doing
exactly
what
you're
not
supposed
to
do
with
this
kind
of
stuff
is
extremely
cathartic.
C
C
You
know
and
you're
you're
kind
of
a
lot
more
shy
of
showing
your
own
drawing
in
a
lot
of
people
can
be
more
shy
of
showing
a
drawing
in
the
same
way
they
might
not
sing
in
public
they'll
sing
in
the
background
and
show
their
you
won't
sing
in
public,
but
you
know
you
won't
show
showing
something
you've
stuck
together.
That's
made
of
other
things
is
not
so
harmful.
C
You
know,
you
know
it's
not
so
personal
in
some
ways,
and
maybe
you
know
that
that
so
in
that
way,
as
a
as
an
entry
art
form,
I
think
it's
actually
quite
perfect.
Like
that
whole
humor
thing
the
bit
and
the
kind
of
you
know
the
kind
of
the
kind
of
obvious
meanings,
as
well
as
the
hidden
meanings
and
stuff.
You
know
I.
C
You're,
not
you're
you're,
not
being
judged
on
how
well
you
draw
you
know,
you're
being
if
you're
feeling
that
you're
being
judged
at
all
you
just
judged
on
how
well
you
stick
things
down
if
the
edges
are
showing
or
something
you
know
but
or
whether
the
tight
face
from
the
other
side
of
the
piece
of
paper
came
through
because
you
over
soaked
it
with
something,
you
know,
that's
that's
kind
of
like
the
limit
of
the
criticism
that
can
be
kind
of
placed
on
you.
So
if
that
makes
sense,
it
definitely.
B
Oh,
so,
how
do
you
think
all
of
this
collage
has
impacted
your
your
impact
on
the
community
community
management
and
stuff
you've
done?
How
does
yeah.
C
Impacted
it
well
one
of
the
things
now
we're
talking
about
kind
of
like
the
dark
arts.
You
know
kind
of
like
some
of
my
stuff
is
kind
of
written
on
not
safe
for
work.
But
what
I
have
kind
of
found
is
that
it's
made
me
more
aware
of
how
something
that
you
can
do
can
be
misinterpreted.
C
So
what
you?
The
message
that
you
think
you
are
giving
is
not
necessarily
the
message
that
people
are
receiving
and
I
think
that's
actually
really
important
in
tech
teams
in
community
management
in
life
really
and
when
you
start
realizing
that
and
I'll
give
you
I
I
can
give
you
an
example
of
that.
It's
a
collage
that
I
wouldn't
show.
I
said
it
wouldn't
show
here.
C
I
in
my
kind
of
whole
post-apocalyptic
thing
I
had
done,
and
I'm
not
touching
on
anything
really
too
badly
here,
but
I
kind
of
got
a
collage
of
a
flat
with
some
national
geographic
is
a
great
place
to
start
when
you're
doing
the
collage.
C
They
have
amazing
photos,
but
I'd
cut
out
some
kind
of
some
monkeys
and
sat
the
monastery
with
nuclear
war
going
outside
and
they're
watching
their
tv,
and
I
thought
that
I
was
very
obviously
saying
the
people
have
stuffed
up
and
they've
come
in
to
you
know
the
animals
have
taken
over,
thank
goodness,
they're
watching
the
tv,
while
it
all
kind
of
held
brady's
breaking
outside
the
window,
because
people
saw
that
and
and
were
saying
that
that
was
some
kind
of
comment
on
a
kind
of
race
and
society
that
I
never
ever
intended.
C
And
that
is
a
really
really
good
example
of
something
you
can
just
like
walk
into
something
with
totally,
not
that,
as
as
what
you
were
thinking
about
you
know
so
yeah
I
mean
that's
kind
of
like
that
is
a
really
good
example
of
kind
of
learning.
By
what
you
I
never
ever
would
have
done.
That's
what
it
meant
and
you
have
that
same
kind
of
communication
when
you're
working
online
all
the
time.
C
You
have
to
be
very
aware
of
what
you're
saying
you
know
as
a
community
manager,
for
example,
because
you
don't
want
things
to
be
misunderstood
and
what
you
were
saying
about
how
working
with
people
from
different
countries
you
can't
assume-
and
this
is
this-
is
now
applying
to
like
tech
and
remote
work
at
this
point.
Don't
assume
that
you
have
the
same
kind
of
starting
point
in
the
same
understanding
of
things
that
are
going
on
or
how
you
receive
things
and
from
the
course
that
I
I
did
a
post-graduate
course.
C
A
really
good
example
from
that
that
I
finished
in
2018,
which
was
graphic
communication.
But
I
was
working
with
a
lot
of
middle
eastern
students
and
there
was
a
young
woman
that
was
doing
some
art
that
was
very
out
there
for
where
she
lived.
She
kind
of
was
from
palestine,
lived
in
dubai,
doing
very
kind
of
at
the
edge
of
kind
of
what
was
acceptable
in
her
society
and
probably
not
acceptable
in
her
society
and
the
tutor
who
was
an
english
fellow,
had
given
her
some
written
commentary.
C
That
said,
it's
a
great
shame
that
and
there's
this
thing,
that
it's
a
great
shame
that
you
didn't
complete
that
piece
of
work
or
you
didn't
take
it
further.
I
don't
know
what
he
was
saying,
but
she
read
that
and
was
came
to
me
in
kind
of
absolute
floods
wanting
to
speak
to
me
because
he
thought
that
he
he
she
had
interpreted
a
great
shame
as
as
being
you've
brought
shame
on
yourself
and
your
family
and
that's
literally
how
she
had
interpreted
it.
A
People
have
an
amazing,
incredible
ability
to
twist
things
that
you
said
you're
like
that's
totally,
not
what
I
meant
but
other
times
just
innocent
misunderstandings
can
happen
and,
and
things
like
that,
going
back
to
the
other
thing
as
well
too.
I
think
it's
particularly
important
in
the
once
again
the
cncf.
A
We
have
lots
of
different
people
from
lots
of
different
backgrounds
and
so
just
from
a
language
perspective,
because
of
living
in
spain
for
10
years
and
interacting
with
a
fair
amount
of
people
who
are
learning
english.
When
you
talk
to
somebody-
and
they
say-
oh,
I
speak
english,
it
doesn't
mean
they
speak
english
like
you
do,
and
it
doesn't
mean
that
they've
that
they're
going
to
understand
all
of
your
cultural
references,
your
jokes,
your
tv
series,
your
political
stuff,
your
favorite
bands,
they're
going
to
be
tons
of
things.
It
doesn't
mean
that
they're
not
intelligent.
A
They
just
didn't
grow
up
in
the
place
that
you
did
so
it's.
How
are
they
possibly
supposed
to
know
that?
So
I
think
that
cultural
empathy
factor
once
again,
if
we're
looking
at
teams
or
communities
as
a
collage,
is
to
really
like,
I
said,
to
appreciate
those
things,
but
I
think
it's.
I
do
feel
that
cncf's
a
very
welcoming
place.
I've
been
very
welcomed
as
a
non-technical
person.
A
Sometimes,
though,
I
have
to
remind
people
of
that
in
order
to
have
a
more
successful
conversation
so
that
we
get
kind
of
on
the
on
a
level
playing
field,
but
I
think
it's,
I
think
it's
very
nice
that
you
shared
that
example
because,
like
you
said
you
can
do
things
with
the
best
intentions
nelly
next
question.
C
Time
you
know
it's
like
somebody
from
massive
attack
or
something
you
know,
there's
kind
of
different
bands
from
bristol
that
this
person's
supposed
to
be
from,
but
we
were
actually
while
bart
was
elsewhere,
was
detained
elsewhere
we
were
saying
or
perhaps
banksy
is
somebody
that
you
don't
expect
them
to
be.
Perhaps
banksy
has
to
adopt.
I
mean,
do
you
want
to
you
want
to
say
your
theory
actually.
B
B
My
theory
is
that
banksy
is
someone
who
wouldn't
normally
be
accepted
by
a
art,
society
or
society
in
general
as
an
artist
and
so
the
whole
reason
everything
has
been
anonymous
and
has
been
completely
hidden
about
this
person's
identity
is
maybe
this
person
wouldn't
be
accepted?
Maybe
they
have
a
disability,
maybe
they're
very
dark-skinned.
Maybe
it's
a
female.
Maybe
you
know
there's
all
these
things
that
in
in
a
lot
of
societies,
artists,
artist,
art-
you
know-
I
mean
look
bob
ross,
the
castle
rembrandt.
What
do
they
all
have
in
common
all
of
these
famous
artists?
C
C
A
A
C
This
is
this:
is
this:
this
is
a
collage
by
the
gorilla
girls,
one
of
one
of
my
favorite
fruits,
and
this
is
what
we're
really
saying:
isn't
it.
C
C
And
it
was,
and
that
led
us
again
kind
of
while
mark
was
doing
the
tech
stuff.
C
We
were
kind
of
saying
that
I
I
another
kind
of
while
I
was
a
freelance
wordpress
developer,
which
I
did
for
a
few
years,
which
is
kind
of
like
then,
where
I
started
getting
more
interested
in
like
being
professional
about
my
art,
if
you
like,
because
of
having
to
do
websites
and-
and
things
like
that,
I
did
actually
do
mailchimp
for
the
first
gallery
that
ever
exhibited
banksy,
and
so
I
kind
of
like
was
they
kind
of
a
and
deeper
gallery
in
london,
and
I
was
kind
of
working
with
them
on
my
mailchimp.
C
So
that's
kind
of
you
know
art
and
art
and
tech
overlapping
again,
because
they
were
kind
of
helping
them
do
that
and
they
had
when
they
had
their
banksy
exhibitions.
In
the
really
swanky
area
of
london,
they
had
cues
round
the
block
of
the
kind
of
people
that
would
never
ever
be
in
that
area
of
london
and
it
caused
so
much
upset.
But
all
these
kind
of
kids
and
things
were
coming
to
see
banksy
and
it's
kind
of
into
this
art
gallery
that
belonged
to
a
family
of
kind
of
16th
century
art.
C
A
But
it's
just
funny
when
you
mention
the
protest
stuff,
because
I
think
that's
one
of
the
and
once
again
going
back
to
the
low
cost
factor.
Is
that
it's
so
inviting?
Because
you
can
take
these
random
elements
that
to
draw
on
your
own
would
be
next
to
impossible.
If
you're,
not
a
great
artist,
and
even
if
you
are
it's
not
going
to
have
the
same
impact.
So
I
think
that,
like
I'm,
just
thinking
off
the
top
of
my
head
well
anyway,
tell
us
about
this.
First.
C
I
mean
well
this
one's
another.
I
mean
you
know,
that's
a
really
simple
image,
but
you
can
see
exactly
what
it's
about
in
kind
of
like
in
three
parts
of
an
image
of
peter
kennard
and
his
kind
of
crushing
cruise
kind
of
thing.
So
you
know
that
that
kind
of
imagery
is
really
kind
of
yeah.
Look
around
the
protesting
side,
yeah.
A
A
A
C
A
A
Now,
but
now
we
want
to
get
to,
we
want
to
get
to
something.
Even
further
is
that
okay,
so
we've
looked
at
a
couple
things
from
from
different
artists,
but
what's
the
best
lorraine
piece,
if
we,
if
we
want
to
go
out
and
find
something,
tell
us
about
things
that
you've
worked
on
and
also
where
we
can
find
this
stuff.
C
Yeah,
so
I
well
at
atomic
mutton
on
facebook
is
kind
of.
I
don't
keep
it
up
to
date.
This
is
one
of
the
things
that
you
do
find
difficult,
actually
is
kind
of
having
a
serious,
a
serious
kind
of
attempt
to
keeping
up
to
date
with
your
artwork
at
the
same
time
as
working,
and
there
have
been
times
if
you
get
kind
of
really
unhappy
kind
of
like
the
creativity
side
of
your
brain,
also
switches
off,
I'm
actually
feeling
quite
creative
at
the
moment,
which
is
kind
of
good
for
time.
C
Scale
scale,
I'm
very
happy
in
my
life,
so
but
I
think
that
and
and
some
of
the
stuff-
I
guess,
is
a
little
bit-
that's
what
I'm
saying
is
a
bit
unsafe
for
work.
I
mean
one
of
my
favorite.
I
won't
climb
up
and
get
it
there's
a
picture
here.
I
haven't
shared
with
you,
which
is
kind
of
to
do
with
lockdown.
It's
probably
you
know
kind
of.
A
A
Go
get
it
go,
get
it
because,
actually,
I
think,
and
and
this
is
something
that
we
can
touch
on
while
you're
getting
that
so
there's
plenty
of
time
is-
I
think
that
in
in
once
again,
just
only
personal
experience
and
knowledge,
I'd
like
to
hear
your
thoughts
on
this
is
that
life
guarantees
difficult
moments
and
adversity
guaranteed
like
that.
If
at
the
age
of
35,
if
I
know
anything,
I
definitely
know
that.
So
I
think
one
of
the
things
is
you're
going
to
be
faced
with
adversity.
A
You
do
get
to
decide
to
a
certain
extent
how
you
will
respond
to
that,
and
so
that's
why.
I
think
it's
very
it's
poignant
to
bring
this
out
about
the
pandemic,
about
the
lockdown
situation,
about
how
you
were
dealing
with
it.
How
you
decided
to
express
it
is
once
again
the
what
I
want
we're,
not
telling
everybody
you
need
to
become
artists
or
collage
experts
or
musicians,
or
things
like
that,
but
find
something
that
you
can
connect
with
outside
of
work.
A
That
gives
you
an
outlet
for
expression,
and
you
don't
have
to
be
good
at
it.
You
just
have
to
enjoy
it.
I
think
that's
the
most
important
thing
so
anyway,
let's
take
a
look
at
this.
C
Okay,
so
this
was
this
was
my
lockdown
piece
there
we
go,
let's
go
zoom
out
yeah,
so
it
says
how
to
how
to
what
how
to
end
it.
Oh
wow
so,
but
it
could
be.
What
and
what
are
we
ending
locked
down?
Are
we
ending
coffee?
Are
we
ending?
You
know
so
this
is
where,
like
this
is
kind
of
like
my
thing
about
illustrating
the.
C
C
I'm
going
to
say
people
who
work
for
google
at
this
point.
No,
no,
I
didn't
say
that,
but
it's
aimed
at
people
kind
of
who
have
got
a
lot
of
wealth.
So
actually-
and
this
is
where,
like
the
layers
come
in
because
all
of
these
things
all
of
these
pictures-
because
we
get
it
at
the
weekend
because
it's
a
good
read-
it
is
actually
a
genuinely
good
read
about
newspaper,
but
I
find
how
to
spend
it
as
a
magazine
supplement
quite
offensive.
C
So
everything
here
is
kind
of
like
this
is
a.
This.
Is
a
cup
by
tracy
emin
who's,
a
famous
artist,
that's
one
of
her
cups
that
was
sold
at
the
museum.
That
was
their
kind
of
cheap
piece.
You
know,
if
you
kind
of
got,
you
know
you
just
fancy,
throwing
a
bit
of
cash
around.
That's
the
cheap
piece,
but
everything
else
is
kind
of
made
for
very
branded
goods
and
kind
of
teslas
and
all
kinds
of
stuff
in
there
to
make
all
the
colors
so
just
kind
of
getting
all
the.
C
So
if
you
look
really
closely,
you
can
see
a
lot
of
stuff
there,
and
that
was
an
interesting
experiment
as
well,
because
this,
on
top
of
that,
which
you
can't
really
tell
unless
you
see
it
in
person,
I
guess
there's
a
layer
of
wax
because,
like
when
you
stick
magazine,
this
is
the
kind
of
experimentation
and
moving
on
to
the
next
level
thing.
You
know,
because
when
you
just
stick
papers
down
from
a
magazine,
it's
quite
unsatisfying
because
they're
just
shiny
and
they
just
look
like
bits
that
are
cut
out
of
a
magazine.
C
A
C
B
C
And
carry
on
and
drink
a
cupboard
yeah!
That's
right!
So
that's
exactly
right,
so
yeah
so
yeah,
so
that
that
would
be
kind
of
you
know
those
kind
of
things
like
I
like
doing
and
yeah.
I
think,
and
then
my
little
book.
C
I
mean
ridiculous
project
that
this
is
how
I
started
talking
about
this
kind
of
thing
actually
because
he
was
talking
about
art
on
slack
and
that
his
mom,
like
collage
and
this
type,
and
I
for
my
project
for
my
m.a
that
I
finished
two
or
three
years
ago,
because
I
did
that
alongside
kind
of
work
in
my
part
time
for
fun,
lifelong
learning,
it's
good
folks!
You
know
I
collected
the
rubbish
they
get
from
the
charities
in
your
mailbox
that
you
didn't
ask
for
and
they're
always
really
sad.
C
C
So
I
collected
all
of
this
stuff
from
houses
about
five
or
six
houses
around
the
uk
that
they
got
in
a
year
and
then
I
made
a
book
from
it,
but
I
turned
it
into
a
children's
story
book
about
kind
of
how
many
mana
joy
in
the
sadness
of
the
world
that
was
the
idea
of
it-
is
like
she's
kind
of
getting
all
this
sadness
just
shoved
through
her
letterbox
uninvited
all
of
the
time,
and
it's
kind
of
like
that-
you
didn't
ask
for
that
to
come
in
your
door.
C
C
On
it's
finally,
on
its
way
there
so
yeah
that
was
that
was
kind
of,
and
then,
when
you
look
at
something
like
that,
but
funnily
enough,
after
that,
the
amount
of
charity
mail
dropped
off
because
there's
a
whole
load
of
cases
in
the
uk
that
were,
it
was
a
problem
that
this
kind
of
mail
was
coming
through
and
begging
for
money
and
old.
Ladies,
were
kind
of
killing
themselves
because
they
kind
of
signed
up
to
so
many
charities.
C
They
didn't
know
you
know
what
to
do
next
and
they
couldn't
pay
out
anymore,
but
it
was
making
them
so
sad,
and
that
was
a
reason.
That's
a
really
true
bad
thing
that
was
happening.
You
know
and
the
consequences
of
something
that
seemed
quite
innocent
charities
asking
for
money
were
actually
quite
dire.
C
But
when
you
actually,
I
kind
of
got
all
this
paper
from
like
six
houses
around
the
uk.
There
were
several
things
that
really
interesting.
C
One
was
the
complete
diversity
and
the
difference
of
the
charities
that
ask
for
money
from
the
london
expensive
house
to
the
ones
ask
for
money
from
west
wales
yeah,
because
I
live
like
in
the
poorest
region
of
I
think
northern
europe
versus
london,
which
is
clearly
not,
and
you
know
the
nature
of
the
charities,
was
really
different,
and
that
was
interesting
and
the
other
thing
is
that
I
then
did
a
rough
calculation
that
if
this
amount
of
paper
was
going
into
every
household
every
year,
it's
something
like
you
know:
ridiculous
square
miles
of
forestry
being
knocked
down
just
so
that
we
can
have
charity
mail
that
we
never
invited
come
true
at
all.
C
You
know,
and
not
only
do
we
not
invite
it
where
we
get
it.
It
makes
us
sad.
What
is
that
about?
You
know
so
think
of
the
consequences,
because
that's
the
point
really
but
anyway
so
yeah
that
that's
kind
of
probably
my
favorite,
and
you
can
see
that
you
can
see
that
book
actually
nanojoy.co.uk
and
I
left
the
I've
left
the
website
up
there.
So.
B
A
You
said
that
to
me
anyway:
no
no,
you
can
or
you
can
or
he
can
it's
fine
either
way,
because
that
way
we
can
put
that
here
on
twitch,
okay,
now
I
guess
we
we
unfortunately
I
mean
this
was
scheduled
for
an
hour,
but
we
could
obviously
be
here
for
much
longer.
But
nellie
do
you
have
any
final
questions
that
you
want
to
ask.
B
A
C
C
Yeah,
so
that
that's
that's
a
digital
piece,
and
likewise
this
was
extension
called
chameleon
that
was
to
do
with
bringing
data
between
postgres
and
mysql.
Well,
this
isn't
a
dolphin
because
piccona's
version
of
mysql
had
a
lion
or
a
puma
as
its
logo,
so
they
all
have.
There
was
a
top
point
when
all
open
source
databases
had
animals
as
their
logos.
C
Those
are
those
are
a
couple
of
digital
art
pieces
and
talking
to
paint,
I
mean
yeah,
there's
a
kind
of
national
geographic.
Again,
it
strikes
again
with
a
painterly
background.
Those
are
quite
fun.
You
know
you
kind
of
do
random,
again,
they're
kind
of
a
bit
apocalyptic
really
no.
A
But
I
think
it's
you
know
what
like
we're
saying
about
banksy,
but
also
because,
like
I
lived
in
in
you
know,
I
lived
in
egypt
for
a
year,
but
then
also
traveled
around.
A
Of
the
area
and
seeing
you
know,
the
separation
wall
between
israel
and
the
west
bank
you're
tons.
A
Banksy
is
no
exception,
but
there's
tons
and
tons
of
art
on
there.
So
I
think
I
think
in
some
ways
with
collage
it
sort
of
invites
you
can
say
it's
a
theater.
I
don't
I
don't
want.
This
might
be
an
extension,
but
I
might
be
reaching
too
much,
but
a
sort
of
theater
of
a
powerless
where
you
can
remix
things
and
you
get
to
be
the
narrator
and
create
new
kinds
of
realities.
That.
A
Like
inaccessible
that
you
that
are
out
of
out
of
reach-
and
I
also
think
you
know
just
from
seeing
your
other
thing-
is
like
how
to
end
it-
you
know
this
sort
of
like
remix
mischief
humor
that
you
find
in
there
too.
That
is
also
very
empowering
just
a
silly
example
that
I
thought
of
when
we
got
started
is
like
the
sex
pistols
album
cover
of
god
save
the
queen
of
like.
A
I
can
take
this
like
sacred,
almost
image,
and
I
can
do
whatever
I
want
to
it,
because
I
can
and
I'm
a
rebel,
and
so
I
think
I
think,
there's
if
I
take
anything
away
from
this
conversation,
or
one
of
the
things
I
definitely
take
away
is
one
of
the
things
that
collage
provides
in
that
sense.
That
perhaps
other
art
forms
don't
give
as
immediately.
C
So
I
I
think
it
is
that
kind
of
I
think
it's
the
constant
association
with
the
underground
in
the
hidden
message.
I
think
you
know,
I
think,
that's
really.
You
know
it's
not
about
beauty
and
it's
not
about
and,
like
you
say
you
reference
like
the
sex
pistols
and
we
didn't
touch
on
that.
Really.
A
lot
of
the
work
I
do
is
square
because
I
kind
of
it.
C
You
know
that
totally
went
out
of
my
head
in
this
conversation,
but
it
doesn't
matter
yeah
what
the
hell
but
yeah
a
lot
of
mine
is
album
square
album-sized
square.
That's.
C
Yeah
and
loads
and
lots
of
the
work
I
just
find
it
really
satisfying
to
work
in
the
square,
and
I
realize,
when
kind
of
talking
about
this
and
coming
towards
this
is
like,
oh
actually,
it's
because
I'm
so
influenced
from
the
album
art
of
the
80s,
which
was
you
know,
a
kind
of
famous
artist
and
and
typographers
like
neville
brody
barney
bubbles,
who
you
are
come
to
go
barney
bubbles?
Who
the
hell
is
that,
but
if
you
saw
the
album
covers,
you
would
absolutely.
B
C
Know
barney
bubble
was
and
this
this
book
this
is
this
is
an
excellent
book
for
that
which
has
all
kinds
of
the
graphic
art
of
the
underground
all
right,
because
that's
almost
all
about
kind
of
music
covers-
and
this
is
probably
not
yeah-
it's
not
all
about
album
covers,
but
but
there's
that
whole
kind
of
other
thing
about
being
able
to
the
do-it-yourselfness
she
says
reaching
for
this
one.
A
C
This
is
like,
oh,
do
it
yourself,
like
brown
bag
things,
you
know
where
people
have
had
to
they're
kind
of
independent,
independently
doing
their
records
and
and
their
vinyl
and
making
their
own
album
covers.
So
that's
the
real
that's,
a
real
treat
and
again
a
lot
of
those
will
be
quite
large.
Just
because
you
don't
have
to
be
able
to
draw.
You
can
just
kind
of
stick
brown
bags
together
and
stick
things
on
and
print
and
whatever.
C
A
No,
but
I
think,
but
once
again
as
I
think
that
that's
what
is
really
inviting
about
all
this
is
like
how
many
different
you
know:
social
collages.
If
we
talk
about
food
and
mixing
different
ingredients,
if
you
talk
about
having
people
over
to
your
house-
and
you
have
people
with
different
backgrounds,
because
you
know
that
they're
going
to
mix
well
or
not,
and
that
can
always
get
dicey
as
well.
I
think
there
are
so
many.
A
A
Is
one
of
the
things
that
somebody
told
me
in
the
in
the
contributor
experience
marketing
group
that
I'm
in
it's
like
it's
nice
if
you
come
for
one
day
and
you're
very,
very
active,
but
it's
much
better
that
you're
consistently
there
and
just
contributing
you
know
something.
That's
but
it's
difficult,
because
once
again
we
go
through
spurts.
There
are
good
moments
and
there
are
bad
moments.
That's
called
life,
but
I
think
that
you
know
open
source
projects
can
help
artists
to
better
understand
the
different
things
you
know
ever.
A
If
you
want
to
make
it,
if
you
want
to
make
a
film
it's
a
lot
of
work,
it's
gonna
involve
a
lot
of
people
or
an
album
or
things
like
that.
But
I
think
so
that's
why
I
think
that
kind
of
a
vision
and
the
collaborative
vision
that
goes
into
that
you
know
make
things
as
much
of
a
people
problem
as
you
can,
rather
than
just
a
technical
problem.
A
That's
what
somebody
in
one
of
our
kubernetes
datum,
kubernetes
meetup,
said-
and
I
completely
agree
in
your
case
with
that
in
mind,
because
you've
mentioned
lifelong
learning,
but
in
the
collaborative
sense
of
things,
do
you
primarily
work
alone?
Do
you
get
feedback
from
other
artists?
How
do
you
do
that.
C
So
primarily,
I
work
alone,
but
there
are
some
really
interesting
collaborative
projects
and
especially
collage
lens
itself
really
well
to
these,
which
do
have
some
dire,
getting
back
to
the
code
analogy
thing,
but
do
have
some
real
direct
kind
of
parallels
with
open
source
projects,
in
particular
where
you
kind
of
start
a
piece
and
you
pass
it
on,
and
you
start
the
piece
and
you
pass
it
on,
and
people
add
their
own
sticky
thing
to
it
so
and
that's
kind
of
unlike
the
whole
project,
is
about
sending
either
sketchbooks
around,
but
more
frequently
postcards
and
things
you
just
send
to
each
other.
C
A
A
A
A
A
That's
it,
that's
it!
That's
what
I'm
saying
that's
what
I'm
saying
so
I
think
that
would
be
a
fun
way
to
kind
of
put
these
ideas
into
practice.
I
don't
know
nelly
any
other
questions.
Doubts
that
you'd
like
to
have
clarified
before
we
wrap
it
up.
B
No,
no
I'm
I
mean
this
was
great.
I
got
to
hear
all
about
collage
and
now
I
really
want
to
make
a
question.
I.
A
C
Yeah
my
one
last
thing
when
the
conferences
start
coming
open
again
and
you're
all
collecting
your
stickers,
instead
of
just
putting
them
on
your
laptops,
do
something
wrong
with
the
makeup
collage
or
something,
and
I
was
looking
for
I'm
frantically
reaching
for
no.
I
can't
find
it
frantically
reaching
for
the
one
that
I've
got
over
hoopie
who's,
a
devrel
consultancy
and
mongodb
kind
of
stuck
together
into
a
picture.
So
I
want
to
see
all
those
stickers
made
into
collages
instead
of
just
happening
on
laptops.
This.
A
Very
full
suitcase
in
terms
of
swag
and
all
kinds
of
accoutrements
crossing
the
atlantic
on
the
way
back
so
yeah.
I
will,
I
think,
it'd
be
interesting
to
have
a
swag
collage
at
some
point
or
stickers
or
whatever.
A
With
that
there's
a
lot
of
stuff,
we
could
do
with
that
upcycling
so
anyway,
this
was
a
smashing
success
for
our
first
episode
of
artist
code.
I'm
extremely
I
I'm
as
happy
as
I
expected
to
be
because,
having
met
lorraine
previously,
I
knew
this
conversation
was
going
to
be
really
good.
We
got
the
dropbox
link
which
we'll
be
putting
in
once
this
gets
uploaded
to
youtube
it'll
be
on
twitch
for
a
bit,
then
it
gets
uploaded
to
youtube,
be
sure
to
put
that
there
with
some
of
the
references.
A
Obviously,
the
website
we've
shared
with
in
the
chat
as
well.
This
is
an
amazing
conversation
and
we
will
be
having
you
back,
whether
you
like
it
or
not,
lorraine.
So.
A
B
A
Also,
if
you
want
to
what
we're
talking
about,
you
know
shout
outs
and
twitter
and
things
like
that,
lorraine,
you
were
at
atomic
mutton
nelly,
you
were
at
nelly's
noodles
and
I
am
birthmark
bart,
so
we're
pretty
easy
to
find
we're
very
active
people
and
in
all
the
things
that
we
do.
Thank
you
very
much
for
joining
us
in
our
inaugural
program.
We
don't
have
a
set
date
yet
as
to
when
we'll
be
doing
the
next
one.
A
We
don't
have
a
set
date
yet
because
we
like
to
be
unpredictable,
but
basically
after
kubecon,
and
keep
checking
all
the
stuff
on
cloudnativetv
have
a
wonderful
evening
and
we'll
see
you
in
slack
in
twitter
and
linkedin
all
those
other
ephemeral
spaces
that
we
inhabit
and
soon,
as
you
said,
lorraine
is,
when
conferences
start
to
come
back,
we'll
be
able
to
see
each
other
in
person.
So.