Cloud Native Computing Foundation Contributor Strategy Special Interest Group, 13 Oct 2020

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From YouTube: SIG Contributor Strategy Governance WG 2020-10-13

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SIG Contributor Strategy Governance WG 2020-10-13

A

Josh, hey dawn, did you color your hair.

B

It is it's purple.

A

B

So what happens when you get bored during a pandemic.

A

Okay, you know I'm actually just have. One of the things is that one of the reasons I had to avoid pycon in 2018 was, I promised. If I went, I was going to color my hair.

A

My hair is super dry, so I know if I colored it, I would end up having to cut it short afterwards, because it would be too dry and brittle mm-hmm.

A

B

Yeah I got mine, well, the first. uh I go to a professional and she she does most of it and then I just sort of touch it up. Just keep.

A

It right because.

B

It doesn't stay bright for that long.

B

I've been going for ages to get like the the great.

A

B

A

B

Yeah yeah, but I usually just got normal hair color. You know like brown same color as my regular hair.

B

This is the first time I've done anything right, unnatural. I kinda like it.

A

Unfortunately, on um on video, it mostly looks black.

B

It does yeah, that's the thing like in real life, it's actually quite bright, but.

A

But video doesn't do purple. I guess.

B

Yeah not very well well,.

A

It also depends.

B

On I've, you know I have one of these lights, it has different colors, and so, if I use this one, it looks kind of red purple. I use this one. My hair looks completely blue.

B

A

We're waiting it's time that we need to pester the existing um native steering committee.

B

Yeah yeah, we need to because april said that she was having some conversations with people, but they were out on holiday yeah. Actually, if she's not eligible to be an election officer, we need a new one.

A

A

And, of course, bob killen works for google now, so if they want somebody from google.

B

B

Because he ran the election process, what was it last year? Yeah yeah.

A

So um but yeah it would be good to know and be good to know what they expect in terms of a schedule, because we're already past the original schedule. I proposed.

B

A

The um and I'm also not all that clear on how many people are being elected so.

B

No, it's not that clear, because the the transition stuff isn't, I don't know it seems to contradict the other stuff. Just a little bit.

A

It didn't get updated after they eliminated the end user positions yeah, so the um which I'm still sad about, but.

B

A

B

Steering committee meeting we can drop into um get answers to our questions, live.

A

Yeah, but not for like a week.

B

A

um I don't know actually because right they were supposed to make more of their meetings public after the charter change, but there wasn't a specific schedule attached to that, and it really is true that, like half of the k-native principles took the week off last week, because I've been trying to get some stuff done internally for promoting k native- and you know, people just did not start returning my messages until yesterday. So um the.

A

um Are we not getting anybody else.

B

Amy said based on the agenda, it didn't look like she needed to be here. No.

A

B

Said to her, if she needs, if we need her.

A

Yep she didn't, I guess, when we're not um arguing about steering committees, people are not really interested and I'm like, I don't care.

A

Steering committees are boring and if they're not boring, you're doing something wrong.

A

A

um Because I only had a couple of things um mostly and honestly, one of them should have been on the general meeting last week, except we didn't have a general meeting, because something went weird with the calendar.

B

A

A bunch of us um the um which is, we need to start preparing for the session for um uh kubecon.

B

Mm-Hmm yeah, because we're supposed to have our recording done by the 22nd, I think.

A

Something like that yeah, so kind of need to have an outline and stuff yeah.

B

A

Decide who's recording what and obviously we need some of the people from we need at least like carol in there as well the for the contributor growth portions of things, um the um I mean what I was seeing was about 10 minutes going over. You know: here's your project checklist at the different levels of maturity.

A

B

A

The things that you're expected to have or should have um and then open it up to the q, a where we'll actually find out who's participating and help them through specific things that they need to have.

B

How much time do you think we want to devote to the presentation part of it.

A

I I was suggesting 10 minutes, okay, um which is about enough time to go over our sort of tree of things that projects should.

B

A

um The um if you can think of a way to make that slightly more engaging than a laundry list, I've been trying to come up with one.

B

It's hard to make paperwork engaging josh.

A

Yes, it is yes, it is the um and again like in real project time. If the paperwork is super engaging, then it's because there's a problem so yeah.

A

A

Yeah, I mean obviously the most engaging thing would be to take an existing project that has a relatively incomplete paperwork profile and go over. What's there and not there, the problem is that the timing, for that is impossible right. We would have to find such a project now and count on and count on them uh being incomplete for long enough for us to um record the video.

B

A

The um so like say hey, you know they have a contributing.md thing here, but it doesn't actually tell you how to contribute.

A

Or you know and they're missing anything about who their current reviewers, you know who their current owners are, and you know the um so.

A

Yeah, but I was basically thinking for the recording we'd split it up into segments for each of us, because I don't have I'm not prepared to set up the technology to actually record us.

A

Well, we could record us as sort of a panel if we were to do it via um conference call stuff like we recorded via zoom yeah, um the.

B

I think that's probably a fine option, I mean it's just it's just 10 minutes. We could record it. I think I think recording it via zoom is probably probably the easiest way.

B

Because one of us could share the screen and we could each have. I don't know a couple of slides or.

A

B

However, at the end of my day, after a day full of meetings, I I'm not sure how much creativity I have to offer this uh finding something yeah engaging solution.

A

Yeah, well, that's another reason to keep the presentation part of things short, the um so that we can, you know, go straight to helping people with the actual problems they have yeah. The.

A

A

um Okay, so we'll want to so we need to actually.

A

Need to create an outline we need to. I mean one of the reasons why I like the idea of having a project to look at. If we could find one um would be um that it would allow us to do something that wasn't just slides, yeah like possibly not do slides at all, except the you know name of the session slide, because we actually could go back and forth between.

A

You know a checklist document and a.

A

A checklist document and a um and looking at a project and that's going to be more engaging than looking at a bunch of slides.

B

A

The uh plus it's stuff that people can refer to later.

B

Yeah I like that idea.

A

Okay; okay, that does mean that we need to finish with contributor growth, preparing a sort of master checklist document document for the various levels of maturity.

A

You know saying hey: this is what these are, the things you're expected to have at this level of maturity, and these are the things that are good to have, regardless of whether or not they're required the um so.

B

Who was working on that.

A

Nobody has been so we need to start it yeah.

B

A

I mean we kind of have that with our content, our list of content- that's required, um the um you know, and so it would just be converting parts of that to a checklist.

A

A

um And then getting uh contrib growth to make sure that all of their stuff is in.

A

A

B

Oh, the problem is just time between now and the 22nd, because that's oh.

A

B

Seven businesses and all things open smack in the middle of it.

A

Yeah yeah, unfortunately, not speaking at all things open. The bigger problem for me is that I'm also responsible for a lot of red, hat's commercial kubecon, stuff.

B

A

The um so the yeah, I honestly thought I would have more time to work on this in september.

A

um Then then I ended up having.

B

A

Mostly because I didn't think I'd be spending most of my september on non-cncf projects, so.

B

Yeah really pain there. um Maybe we should just start that master checklist, doc, google, doc right now, throw it in the minutes and that way we can both add to it, and maybe, um if you want to ping uh caroline and have here add some stuff to it,.

B

Okay, because if we get it started and then we can all just add bits and pieces to it, maybe that maybe it'll go faster because I might have some time between meetings tomorrow. I'll put it on my to-do list.

B

Sorry, were you creating that? Are you waiting for me to create that.

A

I'm creating it. Okay,.

B

Just checking now we're not both staring at each other waiting for the other one to do something.

A

A

Okay, there's the link it's blank right now. Obviously,.

A

B

B

Good to have regardless be above entering sandbox like the things that you should have anyways and then yeah.

A

A

Well, that's actually a requirement for entering sandbox.

B

Oh, I was thinking good to have, regardless of stuff, that every project needs.

A

Oh, even if they're not going to join the cncf.

B

A

The um it's going to be repetitive, a lot of things that are required. I.

B

Wonder if you should just get rid of that.

A

The what I was thinking about good to have, regardless is stuff, that's not actually a requirement, and some projects don't necessarily have.

A

B

So maybe maybe like nice to have additions and if that's the case, I would put it back at the bottom.

B

Additionally, oh I can reword that later yep.

A

B

B

A

By the way, I made my proposal um that the cncf should consider having a joint code of conduct committee for all of the smaller projects. Yeah crickets.

A

They're willing to spend, I don't know how many meetings arguing about steering committees.

B

A

But you know code of conduct enforcement, no.

B

That's something we really.

A

B

To because lots of people aren't good at conduct enforcement and if we have people who are like spot-on, trained.

A

Yeah well and right now the setup is, if you know, if you're not kubernetes or I think, helm, code of conduct enforcement is carried out by angela at the linux foundation yeah and if angela's on vacation.

B

A

The um not that angelo really takes vacations, but I don't think we should reinforce that.

A

So um the um also you know I haven't said this to you- know the cncf folks, but there's also the issue that if the code of conduct complaint is against a member of the linux foundation, event staff- that's going to be a huge conflict of interest for angela.

B

A

The um so, um okay, the um so what else we got here.

A

Not have that disappear. Let's look at our content.

A

B

I just sent this to just tag carolyn in a black message with the.

B

A

Yeah, there's actually only three things required of.

A

A

Which I almost wonder if good to have, is actually per level because.

A

A

Because, even though having a governance, dot md is not actually required until incubation, it gets discussed.

A

The okay, so, let's see.

A

A

A

A

A

Well, there's something: that's actually currently nobody's responsibility.

B

Oh conformance, but.

A

It's really yeah, and I realize that is an expectation of the cncf and it kind of I mean we isn't there, a conformance working group for cncf.

B

I thought there was.

A

A

A

Yeah, I'm actually going to put those three things under good to have nice to have in general, because those actually are good. Examples of things that could be introduced at any stage are not tied to specific requirements except in a loose sense.

B

A

I kind of think the cia best practices probably requires having the security report handling, but I haven't delved into.

A

A

A

Okay, I think you actually have to have the adopters at the incubating stage. Don't you.

B

If you look at so the dock, I'm looking at right now is this one.

B

Which has it at the graduating stage.

A

Yeah, okay, then I'll move that from requirements to good to have.

A

So it's actually kind of weird, because at the emitting stage it says that you have to document that it's used by at least three independent end users.

A

Which is the adopters yeah?

A

So it's weird that those two things are phrased entirely different ways, even though they're the same thing.

B

B

But it's interesting because for for graduating it doesn't give any number of adopters no.

A

Well, the presumption is that you got the three in order to get to incubating.

B

A

And and that three is enough: no there's no increased number.

B

A

A

So the um I guess the one difference is that technically the list of end users could be less public at the incubating stage. That is, it could be a document you furnish only to the cncf uh sigs and not something you have published in your project.

A

Although I've never actually seen that um because I mean at least having gone through it with projects, we're always saying, can we publicly reference you because.

B

A

Cncf committees have publicly recorded meetings, so nothing's, actually private. It's just annoying to.

A

A

Yeah and the clear versioning scheme kind of implies the existence of a defined release process yeah exactly.

B

A

You could get around that, but obviously having a defined release process is the better way to go. There.

B

A

um Because then you're, not what version is? This is not a matter of opinion anymore yeah, although um it's not really true having having worked on both uh firefox and uh postgres, you can have a very defined release, process and version numbers can still be a matter of opinion.

A

B

A

Not sure whether I should be proud or ashamed of of having converted firefox to whole integers for version numbers, it just feels weird to be getting like version 103 of firefox. On the other hand, the versioning number scheme we had before then was truly nightmarish.

A

It was like three point. Five point. Three three point: seven dash um uh alpha b.

A

And that would be like a release version.

A

You know the way that I actually got. People to switch versioning numbers was that um I merged a page-long function, written in perl to interpret the version numbers.

A

And the folks at mozilla hated.

A

Pearl and I was like okay- well- try rewriting this in python, I tried it was. This is one of the areas where pearl really shines. The python version was four times as long um and they changed the version numbers rather than to use pearl.

B

Anything to avoid some pearl.

A

uh You know whatever works, the um I was reading the sivs code and was surprised to find I could still read pearl.

B

Yeah I wouldn't be able to at this point I mean I wrote some pearl back in the 90s and that's I don't remember any of it.

A

I wrote whole applications in pearl 5, so yeah the.

B

Plus the thing about pearl, like I don't know, being able to write your own pearl and being good enough to read other people's pearl are two completely different things.

A

It depends on who the writer is. I mean it does help that the civs code came out of academia um and therefore it's actually written to be read um reviewed by faculty, who might not actually be programmers.

B

A

And and as a result, a lot of things that could have been rolled up into pearl one-liners were not, which makes it much easier to read yeah um the um so, which is good, because the vote counting algorithms are.

A

Not obvious interesting.

B

Okay, well, I feel, like we've got a pretty good start. Yeah.

A

B

Add anything to it: we can keep it to a page.

B

um We'll see what carolyn says if she has anything to add to it.

A

B

But I think this is a really good start.

A

Okay, yeah and I think if we had all of that, we would have stuff for people and then they could start pitching questions of hey, I'm pitching my project to sandbox. Do I need x or I need x, and what does that look like yeah um so and then I'm going to ask everybody to look around and see if they know a project that is.

A

Relatively incomplete that we could take a look at.

B

A

B

Yeah, do we want to put this in the uh in the github repo.

A

Yes, okay, but um but let's finish it out on on docs yeah,.

B

A

We can collaborately edit it and then yes, no, we definitely want it in the github repo um as a document that people can.

B

A

I think that some mature version of this should eventually go into the templates project.

B

A

It is a checklist for projects.

B

Yeah, the other thing I think we should do um before we publish it on github is maybe include links to good examples of these. So do we have a governance md. That's a good example of.

B

A

Yeah, well, I mean actually eventually we want to have in our thing, possibly before we give. The actual talk is both links to examples and links to any of the documentation we have so far published around these things.

B

A

B

Links to the leadership selection, doc here.

A

B

B

So what are what are next steps? um I don't think we can rely on just the the meanings that we have to finish this.

A

B

We just don't have enough time.

B

Should we try to set something up for for later this week for the three of us to chat, so we can pull carolyn into it.

A

Yeah yeah, I think we better.

B

I'm on pto on friday.

A

Oh, so am I actually so not friday.

B

I could do how early do you start? What's your typical start,.

A

um Usually 8 a.m: pacific, okay, because.

B

I could do and the.

A

Problem is that like, if I start at seven, I'm I'm I'm honestly an evening person. So I can attend a meeting at seven, but I tend to be not very contributor.

B

Yep nope, that's cool um if you could work with uh carolyn, because this is I'm pretty much gonna be done at this point, but I could do. I could do wednesday um after 9am pacific.

A

B

Preference for earlier- and I could do- I could do thursday at 10, 30, pacific.

B

So if you could find a time that works for both you and carolyn and maybe just like drop a meeting on the calendars that would be that'd, be cool.

A

B

Cool is there anything else we need to talk about.

A

A

As usual, we have enough work to do that. We don't actually need to talk about it.

B

Yeah totally agreed now we.

A

B

About with carolyn is which parts of the checklist we each want to cover and then figure out how to make that work. In a talking record us format.

A

B

Okay, cool sounds good great talking to you, take care.