Cloud Native Computing Foundation Contributor Strategy Special Interest Group, 5 Jan 2020

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From YouTube: CNCF SIG Contributor Strategy Contributor Growth WG 2020-01-05

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CNCF SIG Contributor Strategy Contributor Growth WG 2020-01-05

A

A

Hello, hey how's it going; okay, I'm good! How are you happy new year happy new year yeah, I'm.

B

uh I'm still catching up.

B

I was looking at her agenda and I'm like I don't know what we're doing.

A

We'll figure it out, yeah yeah, I don't have much. Let me just put my name again.

A

Why is it doing? I don't want it to do that.

A

um Yeah, I'm I ca. I I I'm pretty far along with the framework, which is pretty cool and, as you know, um scott volunteered to help so he's gonna interview a few other people and I think once we have that it's already kind of massive, but it's good. um I think we can interviews yet uh four, oh cool yeah and I think four, let me see.

A

And um yeah, I I think there is really good intel uh and scott wanted to speak with someone from container d and prometheus. So I think that's good. I just.

C

A

Like the bigger projects have a lot more in so it's it's, it's good right, like the smaller projects. They have bits and pieces here that are interesting, but they're also just trying to figure it out so, but the big ones have already figured it out which which is so useful to get their info. Oh yeah, so.

B

I'm just slowly signing in hey.

A

A

A

Yeah yeah and I think scott is on pto still do you know that karen I think like I was talking to him. um He hasn't told me anything so I could probably check let's see yeah, because I I pinked him and he was going to me during his vacation. I was like no, no just take your vacation, I think um but yeah I don't know when he's going to come back, but I think like yeah once I.

D

Wanted to do kind of the um I don't think he's he's like not online. As far as I can tell on teams, so um he's probably out yeah yeah, I think so he was gonna. Take.

A

He said he was gonna, take some vacation and it's summer over there. So it's like the best time and they have pretty much managed to you know deal with covet really good yeah. So I don't know how they do with the aussies but they're doing fantastic, so he's probably having fun.

B

I was just hoping to get an idea of what people are actively working on and if anyone can help- or you know, move stuff forward or collaborate, I just posted it in the agenda. We have like a content tracking issue of things we needed to make no.

B

There's the contribution ladder- I don't know, can we mark that off yet or is that still we're still iterating on that? I.

D

Think the last thing I remember was paris was going to take it to some people to approve or something- and I don't know if that ever happened.

D

um As far as I can tell like, I don't think anything's happened to the um to like the file. It's just kind of still sitting there. I don't know if like they would have done anything on github or if it was more of just like approval during a meeting um but not yeah. No, I don't think anything's changed.

B

A

The framework which should be somewhere in here right, I don't think, we've captured that.

B

Let's add that I'll, let me edit this issue and we have the contributor framework. Is that threatening for it? You contribute to growth framework.

A

B

um What's your github name, I'm just gonna just link you on.

C

A

D

B

That'll yeah, okay, perfect, that shows up.

A

um And here I I'm just wondering what is the like wait, because I don't really know the flow and I've seen that karen was super white, like already in the almost done with the sharing. So we have it now in a google doc, and I want to do like the uh what's. It called the um handover to scott, so he can interview his people and then, ideally, I think it's ready to share it with other people, so they can put like so we would have to put it on github somehow.

A

So how are yeah we're not ready yet, but just so I understand what we have to do. Well, let's look at what karen's pr was because that's basically.

D

What we want people to do, do you need the link? I can drop it in.

B

Okay, yeah yeah, because your pr kind of shows how to go through that process. Yeah awesome, oh, you know, requested it, but what there was like your poll request that showed how to oh, I guess it wasn't a pull request. Okay, never mind, then.

D

Oh yeah, I put, I created a drafts folder and then yeah.

B

Okay, so katherine, what you would want to do is make something like that. If it's a template, we have like special comments. If it's a pure content like advisory thing, you can just write it mark down and not worry about it. um Just what you can just write mark down and not have to worry about.

B

We have like a special way of telling people like they may need to edit one of their files, um but you should be able to submit it to that same spot like in that directory the drafts directory right there, and that would give us a way to collaborate on it and when we're ready to say this is a recommendation and everyone can look at it and there's no like caveats, like oh.

C

We're not done.

B

Don't look at it um then we'll do a pr and we'll move it to a different directory. Okay, cool one directory up and just be like this is real content. This is happening.

B

Of course, my mom's just died.

D

B

If I just like obsessively tap my trackpad it'll work,.

B

um Does that make sense, though, how to do it? um Your pr doesn't have to be perfect. People can iterate on it and add their own things so, like you could even put it right now in there and then invite scott to make changes using his own pull request so that you don't have to be like the aggregator of everyone's comments and edits.

A

Okay, cool that that makes probably sense yeah. So it's.

B

There we like to like favor getting anything in the repo versus having something be a google doc for a long time or a pull request that it feels like it's never perfect enough to merge. Rather, this margin put in that draft stock um directly.

A

I'll I'll do that tomorrow, okay,.

B

um What I've been working on is that website have you seen it.

A

I don't I'm not sure if I saw the latest version I saw I reworked it over christmas. Oh oh, I saw a link popping up, but I didn't yeah.

B

I'll help girl out here.

B

B

B

I think we changed the name of it a couple times.

B

I think carter netlify there we go okay cool, so we changed the.

B

The idea is that this would become contribute.cncf.io, I'm just waiting for people to say I can put it there, um and so we have one which is. I want to be a contributor, and this is the existing content. That is, if you go to um contribute at cncf.io.

B

The contribution guides the ecosystem list of the projects, um but it's now in the website. So it's you're not like.

A

Reading, oh it's for graduated project, do you have? Is it only graduated or I'm just wondering is. I am hoping linker d is for incubated or yeah.

B

So if I click on incubated here um on the right hand, side there's a nav for all the headers.

D

B

We'll be able to see some more projects, cool and some sandbox projects. um This isn't content that any of us wrote. This is just existing stuff. So if you want to change it, um you can click edit. This page um and it'll give you a chance to edit it, but because this isn't a live site, yet I don't recommend doing that because you'll be editing. I think my fork right now.

B

Let me click on that. I think that's what would happen yeah, so you would go to carolyn's fork, which isn't terribly useful, but if you go to the main one, um if you need to list a project, can.

A

You send the link, please yeah.

B

Sure like how it hides chat every time, you're like that's the one button, I want to see. Okay, um so that's where that content is and then, if you go to the main you know I want to be a maintainer. This is all of our content.

B

That's in the sig contributor strategy repository um and like, for example, the contributor growth framework or the contribution ladder when it's ready, you'll be able to find it on this when this is all up um so, for example, project health is one of ours that actually is finished, so you'd be able to get things in here.

B

I don't I don't know how to find the right people to say that we can make this website live, but eventually we'll figure it out. I guess.

A

That's cool. Did we have anything like that before no right.

B

No, no, we don't have anything like this right now. We just have these two separate repositories, one for sick contributor strategy and the other one.

B

I don't know who runs it actually, but it's just that other repo, and so this kind of combines it and gives it um way better. Formatting potential. I think.

D

I assume amy knows that this exists right. Sorry does amy know that this exists. Amy knows.

B

It exists she's like let me make it go, live immediately, but um I wasn't really sure who got to say that, because there is an existing like the domain we want to use is an existing domain yeah and it points somewhere and um yeah. People have already demonstrated that, like I, I can't just mess with it. Yeah.

D

Like I wonder how I'm gonna break first voted on or something.

B

Yeah, so I don't know if it's the toc we need to ask or- and I think we talked about the tears he talked about this this morning- I think um so. Maybe I should go and watch that recording uh or it's your.

D

Or do you think it happens at the board level?

D

B

Yeah, I don't know I mean at the moment that, like I said it just redirects to this right and what we need to make sure is that we don't re, redirect it to something: that's broken right. So it's an important thing. So if we switch it, it needs to need to be done enough that we don't move backwards in terms of you know, what's here.

A

Wow but wouldn't amy, know.

B

See, let's see if she knows what else needs to.

B

B

Okay, um so I'll follow up with her today and figure figure that out, um like, I imagine, if anything, it's just a matter of making sure it's clearly documented how to edit the site yeah.

D

I wonder if it has to go through any like branding, review or whatnot.

D

You know if they wanted that.

B

Maybe they should have paid someone to make the site I mean I I did the same branding stuff that the linux foundation requires.

D

B

Is in this footer here and it links to our trademarks um if we need more branding than that to make it to uncf cool, I think the cncf has got to pay somebody, because I I don't have like extensive.

D

B

I'm just really good at finding themes.

B

This is the doxie theme from google and I'm like this looks good enough and I just went with it, but if we need to like really rebrand it, we should probably get a designer.

A

Yeah and it looks cute and stuff, but if they want to have something that really kind of looks and feel like the cncf, but they do have designers under stuff. So I don't know if that's something they want. You know that it kind of reflects the brand. I mean amy hasn't said anything.

B

Every time I've shown her the site she's never been like this needs to get spiffed up, but I'll I'll, I don't know we'll see. That's, I think, that's the thing, because no one really understands who owns a scientist to make decisions about it yeah. This is why I really didn't want to use the existing domain name wanted us to just make a new one, but uh you know that's fine, we'll get it figured out eventually just moves a little slower. This way, um I don't know that's all I had um so it sounds like that's.

B

The work we have in progress is the contributor growth framework and the contribution ladder and the website.

D

Is there like a link to the growth framework? I was just going to ask for that. It's like.

A

Oh, let me just put it.

D

B

Hey charles and just like you snuck in.

E

I did so I'm on I'm on dog duty this afternoon, so we're just chilling on the floor.

E

Yeah, so uh that's why I'm off video.

B

Fine, I feel like, if you have a dog, you should always be on youtube.

A

Yes, let us share the like the fun of cuteness and everything.

B

Cat duty isn't as exciting: they just like fall asleep under a chair somewhere and that's pretty much all he does too. Okay.

A

I just added the thanks: google duckling.

A

B

My goodness, you even changed the default font wow.

A

Oh, I have my this looks professional.

A

I don't like the default font.

B

Either you want, this is a good one. I have to remember monster yeah.

A

I love that one I have. I have it like now. It's my default, my google docs default font is that one yeah this is.

B

A

Yeah, I don't know if that's the way of like I wanted to, you know like give people mention who it was. So I don't know if this is the right way of doing it, but I just started. This is perfect. I mean.

B

Honestly, yeah just pr this, let's just get in there. This is this is really far along.

A

Yeah I mean like there's so much stuff when people start talking. You know it's like it's all good. Some things are kind of interesting, because people contradict themselves a little bit like different people, say different things, so it's like hmm so I had like I flacked that, and so we have to see how we address that, but I I wanted it to be like it's really like kind of like this is the advice what people had, but I also wanted to have like a section. These are the tools, efficiency tools that people use.

A

You know so one of things that we had like. How do you make the? um um What's it called the? um um Oh god? Where is it? uh I forgot the word that I.

A

A

Anyways, like how do you make the whole thing like really the whole flow like really easy and like eliminate steps, and some people have mentioned different tools that you can use, and so ideally, I would like to have like one section where it's like. These are the tools for this, for that, for that, like so, people can just go and find like a hub for different. You know things that people have used, bots and and- and so I mean and and the idea.

A

I think this is like the overarching thing and I plugged in at some point it's going to uh if, when it talks about the letter, it has a link to the latter, which is like a very specific thing right, um also at some points like if you want to have like recruitment uh ideas like actual like how to do that, it links to to paris's uh recruitment book and things like that.

A

So, but this is more really high level right so and maybe there are like different things that we can create that kind of plugs into that. I don't know if it's too massive.

B

I was just gonna suggest because it's eventually gonna be on a website where you have the freedom to break it up into maybe like us, its own directory with multiple like web pages inside of it. You know like feel free when you submit the pr um to to if you want to proactively, just make like maybe a page for the tools that was like one thing, that kind of popped in my head. I mean definitely feel free to do that.

B

It doesn't need to be a single doc, because when it's on the website we'll be able to.

A

Oh no yeah and like that's the easiest one, you have a navigation and you can click and just see what you want to see so otherwise yeah it's it's it's. I think that's easier right, like you click on it and then you can see it. I mean it makes it more user-friendly than just you know, being having the whole thing in front of you and you're like. Oh, my god, it's overwhelming, but not.

B

In a bad way, but just you know, I think uh people will feel a little more like I can handle reading through this. If.

A

B

I was kind of picturing having like a.

A

Little bit like the dots where you kind of like click on things and it opens the different sections- you're, not you, don't have to necessarily see everything you know kind of so I don't know make it more. You know bit by bit stuff, but I just started writing and putting stuff there. So I don't know so that's why.

A

But I think there's a lot of good organization.

B

Too much, I was simply saying that, when you're putting in your pr, if you, if you feel like you'd like to break it up,.

A

Yeah we should yeah.

B

Yeah, um charles, we were just kind of going through what anyone had that was kind of ongoing work that they're willing to say that they're doing, I don't know if you've been on anything.

E

I I I'm still I'm I'm working on them by working on I'm thinking a lot about the uh contributor or the onboarding template so yeah. I know what the basic framework looks like, and I myself need to put this into a pr just like the first, like a draft pr basically get that first round going through and then like start working on it piece by piece, but uh I I actually got away from the computer more than I thought I would over the last couple of weeks so uh yeah.

E

So um but that's that's the part that I'm working on.

B

Okay, great I'm just gonna, add that real quick. We have an issue where we're just tracking what content we want to make and who is actively working on it at the moment.

B

So I'm going to put your name on the onboarding framework, yeah, okay,.

E

um And this is it's been an interesting day in terms of like contributor growth, because in the governance working group we talked a lot. As you know, about the contributor ladder there was.

E

uh Some in paris talked about uh just the different categories of of contributors, and so it turns out that we're updating our governance stocks today, there's a pr that came out like right after that that I knew there was some work going on there, but I didn't realize that it was happening like today, so um that is interesting and then, as part of part of that governance stock, there was a note in there about like, should we add a how to become a maintainer section which ties in with what we're talking about here.

E

So all this stuff is very timely for us right now.

B

That's great, can you give me your github um username, just.

C

So I can tag you in I'll type it in here. It's pretty pretty easy, but um there.

E

You go just see pretzel. Sometimes people misspell, my last name.

B

No, it's fine. I just sometimes people don't use the same names everywhere. So you know.

E

B

So we got a bunch of stuff in flight here. This is, this is cool?

B

um Is there anything else? People want to talk about? I just kind of wanted to get us on the same page as to what we're working on.

D

um Can I help with anything I mean I, I guess I might need to make like a few updates to the contributor ladder, but aside from that, I think that's more or less done so.

B

um Did you want to help on one of the existing ones that we're working on right now or did you want to grab another piece of content.

D

um So I assume the ones I don't have names are the ones that, like haven't, been started. Yeah so like. If, if we look at the issue, there's.

B

um The reviewing.md is one uh issue templates, like suggestions for our template, repo of what you could put in the got, the dot github directory.

D

D

So is the reviewing one um that would that be a template, yeah yeah, it would be a template.

B

Some some projects smoosh it all together with the contributing guide or they call it something else like. Sometimes they recall they call it like for the maintainers, like everyone has a different name for it, but um I think we named it after what porter did it, because I wrote this um and it's just it's just guidelines for when you do a review.

B

What do we expect out of reviewers? What what should it look like? What's the process.

D

Do you think that it should um do you think it should be separate, or do you think it should be combined with the contributing one? Just in the sense that, like if you're contributing, you might also want to know what the reading process is going to look like on the other side? So I document it from.

B

Both sides, because they're different audiences sure um so like here's here this was the idea for we'd like to have something like this in the template. Repo.

B

um The reason why I didn't put it in the contributing guide for porter is because people who come to the contributing guide are brand new contributors and us extolling what a reviewer should be doing. Maybe they need to be checking extra things or running manual steps or how to not be a jerk. You know it kind of like makes that new contributor guide so big that it's overwhelming to have like it become this catch-all bucket for content um and, at the same time, we kind of document it two different ways.

B

We say if you're a new person right. This is the process as far as you're concerned, and this is what you can do to move things along if you need to ping someone. This is what you can expect. These are your rights, basically as a from the contributor side and then from the reviewer side. We put what are your responsibilities or, like you know, honestly, like porter like we'll kick you out? If you don't, um if you're, not a nice person, you know character, maintainer or not.

B

um You know so there's things like that in there. That kind of lay all this out that I think, if a new contributor saw it they'd, be like how much of this does it apply to me et cetera, okay, but I mean I'm open to different structures.

E

I'm going to share a link here that one of the people who does the majority of our reviews uh says that he loved everything that was in this code review. It's called how to make your code reviewer fall in love with you, so it's kind of the flipped flip side. Well, I guess not it's from the contributors perspective, but it also gives advice to reviewers as well, so he spoke really highly about about it. I read through it, and I mean it. There's really some important points that resonate.

E

The only reason I bring it up here is that maybe it's it will uh help shape some of the things we do. I'm not saying that we should like fully adopt this, but as we come up with templates, I think it might be helpful just for more ideas.

B

Yeah yeah, I think that for the reviewing thing as well, um this probably should have a companion advisory guide where we link to stuff like this, and we just talk about what we recommend in general. That may not actually be in the template and maybe just be things that people think about when they're saying how do we want to run? You know, reviews for our project and then we can link, because I think I've seen something like this, not the same content, but the same like topic of just.

B

How do you do good reviews and I think, there's like five or six of them floating around- that we could. We could link to and be like. These are all great. They should give you some inspiration.

B

Is that helpful karen.

D

Yeah, I mean um I'm kind of planning on just like approaching this, like I did the contributor ladder and hoping.

B

Okay, my motto is iterate, we'll just get anything down and then more people can get ideas and expand on it. So, but no one's going to contribute. If there's nothing there, they just will think that we don't do that content so yeah, that's the first. Stop was just getting it out. There.

A

Okay, and at some point I would love you to have a look, so I don't know, probably if once we have the other info in there, but it's like if you want to have a look at the growth framework at some point, that would be uh like yeah. The more people look at it and for me, like I'm, totally new to the open source part something like yeah, so any feedback would be highly appreciated.

A

B

Yeah yeah: do you maybe want to link to it in the slack channel and show it to an even larger group of people? Oh.

D

B

Don't have to if you're not ready.

D

But wait: are you asking her to do this before she moves it to github, or do you want her? Do it after yeah.

A

After right, yeah.

D

B

A

I don't know, should we wait until because um it is super long but um yeah, as I mentioned, scott had already kind of gotten people from link uh container d and and prometheus um to agree for for an interview. So I'm wondering if we should get that info first and then see and probably then cut things that are not, as I don't know, if it may yeah. Probably we should get that info in there first, because people are not gonna. Look at it twice. They're just gonna. Look at it once right.

B

No, I was just saying like we can look at it and review the document. That's there and if you wanted more feedback than just us, um you know you can you can link it there and get you know josh and everyone else looking at it. Yeah.

E

I do like the idea of putting it in getting the pr in sooner and having people make comments in github just for the posterity, and um you know you can tag people in github as well just as easily as you can in a google doc, but either way as long as we're getting eyes on it. That's the important thing: yeah.

A

Yeah, I don't want to burn the you know like and then after when we have like the like other information that people say like. Oh, I looked at it already, so I don't know I, but I don't know what the best process is right like I want like the more people can look at it and the more people can tweak and comment and- and you know the better right, um but I'm happy to do whatever you guys say is like if earlier is better my experience.

B

Is that people are more likely to leave a rando little comment on the the google doc you know um and they're less likely to do large, edits in uh in your existing poll request. Does that make sense.

A

Oh okay, so you're saying sharing it before it's, but should we wait for a scott's input? First from his interviews or.

B

um You know it's up to you you're really really far along. You have a ton there. If you like what you have there, I mean I would encourage you just to get it out there and have people look at it. um People are way more likely to look at follow-up prs that are much smaller and targeted like and here's the feedback we got from these two interviews, so we decided to update the doc in this way, because then it's a five minute review instead of oh.

D

A

Like it would maybe take.

B

An hour to read through.

A

Yeah we can color quote stuff, that is new and say, like hey here's, the new stuff. Can you look at that kind of so it's easier this technique? That's.

B

Why I'm saying in a in a pull request, we can put it out there. We can do a light review for major edits like spelling stuff, like whatever like major problems and then just get emerged, and then, when scott does his interview, he could do a second pr and more stuff, and then you don't have to call out what's new it'll be obvious from the pr okay but whatever you're comfortable with, and you know, I was just saying that you'll get more people trying to change your text in a google doc because it feels less.

B

um You know what farther along it's just kind of easier to massively change your text than a google doc. I guess in a pr it's a little harder because you're like composing in a text box.

A

Okay, let me I think I may yeah, let's just brainstorm with um charles because, like charles hasn't read the latest version, so, okay, I just want to make sure it's not total like. Oh, this is far too long and it's like not really useful before I put it out there, so I have like some kind of feedback before it's. um No, whatever you're comfortable with, I was just giving you an opportunity.

B

If you were ready to move it forward,.

A

Yeah, I definitely want feedback, so that's for sure, okay, but good.

B

So does anyone have anything else? This is this is all I had really.

E

That's all I had was to tell you that everything is happening in my head and not on my computer, so I'll stall. Oh, that's a question that I had do I'll typically put time like milestones on things or timelines. So I can see.

E

I say this is somebody who values like if I have a an end date for something I'm much more likely to like work on it, but at the same time since we're this is like, in addition to the work that we're already doing, I hate to put a like a date on something for other folks, so I think the solution. There is probably me just putting my own timelines on myself, but.

B

Occasionally, we do have dates, um for example, if we need to get advice and recommendations to the tfc on, for example, graduation requirements, um that's really more the governance, a working group, though I think they have a more of a fire lit under them to do that yeah.

B

Otherwise, this is all volunteer work, so no one's getting it. Okay, okay, well,.

E

I will put it on my own calendar, then.

B

Yeah yeah um and you know, if you ever want to collaborate with people, um you can just say like: let's try to do a working session, who's interested and get together for an hour just randomly. Whenever.

E

Yeah, I think what I'll do is I'll, just dump what's in my head and do a pr and then um then draw out a working or working group with folks after that or working session yeah.

B

B

This is the super chill working group. We we don't pressure people if someone wants a pressure they're going to have to run the group instead of me.

E

And then nobody will like them.

B

I don't know, but it's not in me to push people to do free work, faster, okay, yeah, okay,.

E

Yeah that made sense, as I was talking through it so yeah. Those were the only things that I had so uh I continue to find this group useful. So it's great good good.

A

I like it that, like without pressure we're getting stuff done, which is pretty cool, yeah and valuable stuff. I feel, like all all the things that are, that I've seen so far the things that are in the pipeline and it's all super valuable. So so that's kind of exciting to get that all in that website, which we all cannot wait to see, live so keep us up to date. When you find out yeah.

B

A

Like right after this meeting, um you shouldn't, if she doesn't know she should know who, because like yeah, that's the cncf, someone at the cncf must be able, to, you know, say yeah yeah. So.

A

That one live, I'm sure you're. You can't wait.

B

Well, it's just that um I have forks right now of these content repositories and um I'd love to just have it be in the real repository. So I don't have to maintain like merging and stuff like that, because those people write new things. I have to keep on top of that to make the preview look right.

A

C

A

D

D