Cloud Native Computing Foundation Observability Special Interest Group, 2 Jul 2020

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From YouTube: CNCF SIG Contributor Strategy 2020-07-02

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CNCF SIG Contributor Strategy 2020-07-02

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C

um One sec I'm trying to wrap some combos. Stop me I mean me right.

B

It's like everyone's trying to clear up things for the weekend or something.

C

Yes, exactly I think that's! What's going on they're, just like hey.

D

C

About this thing, hey how about this thing? It's like, like.

E

C

I honestly think it's just gonna be us today.

B

That's cool I'm with something low-key yeah.

C

Well, low-key, and recorded automatically on CN CF so say hello to.

C

Are we so curious? You know so I like to drop Easter eggs, sometimes and be like hey. If you are listening, I'll give you some swag.

B

You chops this up afterwards, cuz we're it should be not be I kind of feel like we shouldn't be recording until we start.

C

100% and Amy chops, em up I, usually know afterwards and say: hey there. She is I, usually pay her afterwards, like hey, we had some tomfoolery conversation going on at the end there you should just chop.

F

Friends, Heco's.

B

C

Away and we were like.

G

Well, I can upload it and we'll find out.

C

So anyway, hello Steven, welcome to co-chairing.

G

Your votes on that I'll check, yeah.

B

I think it's to Martha.

G

It's to, if we need who do, we need I, think.

B

It's like chef, Brewer, Katie.

C

I can I'll ping Katie right now.

C

All right, so, let's see what I wanted to talk about. Oh.

C

Let me first get the freaking agenda tab out. It's in one of these 800 tabs.

B

Lazy linking it for you, yes,.

C

C

One thing I want to talk about, was the survey, slash focus groups and I say slash, because no one wants to fill out a survey so um so I'm thinking like what I, what I, initially what we initially thought was half accurate, which was a nobody's gonna, fill out a survey and B we're probably enough to go to a lot of them and whether that slack channels, like Amy, saying whether it's community meetings like it--like for some of the projects, especially those who are like in incue, bation, nearing graduation kind of things.

C

We should probably show it to their community meetings like hello, because, right now we have one response to the survey and we sent it to what hundreds of maintainer x' and the other thing is. I also think I mean a name. Maybe Amy can correct me, but I also think people don't read that maintain years list, so cuz I, like I, talked to so many people, and they were all like what survey? What email?

C

What are you talking and like I talked to Amy about some of them, like hey, like ola kubernetes side, but like some of the other projects were just kind of like what I mean.

G

That's hard to say, as far as like the, if they're, not reading email, how will you know yeah.

C

G

Here please raise your hand all right, it's legitimately the problem of if you're not here, please raise your hand and, and so that's why I'm suggesting being able to say the slack channels are a little.

C

G

Active and probably a place to be able to put that up. Yeah.

C

Exactly so, I think that's what we should do, because I keep people keep pinging me about, like oddly enough about maintainer circle and I'm like hey, we have a slack channel now. Did you see that email and it's just like? Oh no, that's why I was just like emails.

C

Yes, like, oh and then that's when they like go in and like look. Obviously it's just like email. Obviously signs of the time, but not me.

H

Now now joining the maintainer circle.

I

Like just oh yeah,.

C

So, do you see it.

J

B

It's so it depends, though, right um it's, because the defining what a maintainer is and who ends up on the official scenes. You have maintainer its list right. There's like a so Karen, it's possible that you're, not even on that list. No.

G

I can double check this one, but the thing is like: if you're listed as an owner in the maintainer file, then you should be on the list now granted. It doesn't always happen because, like this is kind of a manual process, you have to tell us that you've updated the maintainer is list, but I think the bigger challenge here is really that, like we're not getting the reach for the maintainer that we thought we were getting yeah.

C

No, it's like this is what I've discovered in kubernetes there's just this like black hole between CNCs and everybody else in kubernetes, and it's like that's why I keep like running into I'm like what do you mean you didn't know about TOC election like y'all, are in other CN CF projects a lot of these cases, and it's just like oh I, didn't know we could vote for that. I thought that was just TOC and it's just like. We are doing a really bad job on this project of communicating they're like CNCs stuff, too.

C

You know I mean like that's that, like trying to like figure out how to improve that, like maintainer comes with like watering it down right, so I do want to shut up or.

D

Dade they filled out the survey so creative way to go for day, one that.

E

Isn't Carolyn Carolyn comes to these meetings? Is.

C

Kade and it wasn't Carolyn that sold it out, I was.

C

I was super, pumped I was like okay.

J

B

Leaderboard with response times, yeah.

C

We should actually shout out Brigade somewhere, like thanks for filling out the survey. I don't have something like one of 105 hundreds. We.

B

Can we can hit the the tweeters and all that good stuff? Yes,.

C

Oh, you know what I need to the other thing is: I need y'all, because I've done a glance over I need to get y'all to review the blog. That Julie wrote only with CNCs and then what we can do is release that release the crack in there. So that's what I'm and then hold on community meetings. I really want to go to the Prometheus one.

C

That's just me, because I've never been to a prometheus community meeting, so I feel like it would be good to reach out to them, regardless because I want to get a couple of their takes channels.

C

So you'll see me in a couple of the community meetings, because I just have never been anyway and I want to go alright. So next week I'm gonna get on the horn. We're gonna go home with some slack channels. Community meetings get the blog post up. So, if y'all, let me know- and let me get the link to that- it's in the contributor strategy channel somewhere scrolling up Moton, just scroll, scroll.

C

Here it is um well, we do kind of talk. A lot I didn't think we talked about much.

K

Sorry sorry, I'm late I.

C

K

My calendar tab and so wasn't paying attention.

G

They also pinged him. Oh.

K

Yeah I don't know if amy hadn't ping me.

K

B

A surprise meeting land on top of my car I was like. Oh, this will be my slot to like prep for the contributor strategy meeting and someone's like hey I need to pull you in on something happy.

G

Almost Friday yeah.

J

G

Way, my other point was I'm, getting the sense that people have already started taking the holiday.

E

G

Yeah exactly like this, so like yes, I totally agree, we should work on being able to get like the word out a little bit more, but I think people just stopped looking at email and general anything right now. Oh I'm.

C

Not planning on doing it today, okay, it's not your job yeah I'm talking about next week, yeah and I mean we've. We've released it over a week ago, like a week and a half ago, and still only have one response. So that's why I'm like I think we should just go to the focus group. The focus group method at this point and ping people in slack and just do it verbally and I, can't find the frickin link I'm wondering if I have no idea what I'm searching for Julie Josh. Do you have it handy?

C

It's the blog post that Julie wrote it like went away. Oh my oh I.

K

Never saw the blog post, it.

C

What it was in the contributor strategy.

L

Did she are you sure.

K

That it actually went out no.

C

It's she sent it to us to review. It's like.

I

C

Dms, as well as in the contributor strategy, slack Channel,.

C

Yeah I don't know, actually you know what I know where it is. Cuz I actually was organized Oh.

B

C

B

B

The chat awesome.

A

Thank you and I'll.

B

Link that to the darkest one.

C

All right so yeah, that's something we absolutely have to review and if we could let's try to review that today and then we can tell Julie to pretty much chip bag. What.

E

C

Is appropriate next week, whatever best long time so yeah if y'all come and then we're pretty much done with the outreach portion.

I

All right, you want to assist Italy without any like projects. Do you want to reach out to you um if.

C

You think that's good.

I

K

Ever right, thank you good I mean I can obviously reach out to all of the projects. I'm already shepherding yeah.

I

Yeah I know maybe we'll see if that's like enough to get started or I don't know yeah. We just need some data to get.

C

K

Yeah at this point, there are enough Americans on those projects that I'm gonna want to wait until next week to reach out to them. Oh.

C

Yeah, no we're not doing any more reach outs. We're just saying that Nick. This is planning for next week's reach outs.

C

So Joshua of the next item, which is governance, doodle yeah,.

K

Well, so that's actually already been chosen because all five people who responded are able to make 10:00 a.m. Pacific on Tuesdays. So that is the new meeting time suit.

B

I mean so here's the problem. Did we? Oh, there was an email out for it right. Yes,.

K

Okay, I need to put so.

B

I mean one one thing about: it is like their last I checked. There may be like 17 19 people on that list. Do we think we're sending out a doodle and not getting enough people, because, like.

K

The people who responded are the people who have actually shown up for governance meetings in the past, except for clearance. So.

B

So I say that to say: are we limiting our scope to the people that have been showing up and not giving people who have? Who would potentially want to show up to governance meeting an opportunity to.

K

The I guess I'm more concerned with the people who have already contributed than the people who might contribute, but might not, if you follow me, oh.

B

K

Express interest and never show up for anything well.

B

I totally feel that, like, if I'm, if I'm doodling I'll prioritize at the time that the maintainer is chose right, there are some project owners or something like that. All I'm saying is like I, think the scope I think where we sent it is a little short. It's not enough people on those lists um if they don't show up if like if it's still the same time, and they don't show up and fine, but that's just just passerby thought suggestion.

G

We let this hold through this summer and see what kind of frankly attendance you get Josh and then in September we can revisit as far as like. If this time is actually working yet.

B

G

Two months, yeah.

B

That's fine yeah. My only worry is that like, especially because there are not a lot of people on the main on the on the contribs strat mailing list right now and we're talking about people not really reading there are. We are we not giving ourselves an opportunity to have more people and that that working group, that's what I was thinking about? I'm.

C

Like stressing our outreach like and that's why I'm like we actually I'm gonna, have to like get face to face and people's like in their in their props.

G

C

I'm, like hey, how are you like? We are here directly hello, like I, really think that, like unfortunately like I, don't like I do like it, but obviously not because it's 50 projects and we're only so many humans, hmm wife.

B

Yeah I mean it's I, think it's convincing us I mean they. You know. The hope is that the blog posts will do. Some of that, and you know our continued twittering and jumping around our respective projects, will we'll say like a come to this right, because we do want it to be. Ideally it's more.

B

It's more poll polling data than then coming in and and jumping from project and project right. People should eventually see this as a place to go for things as a as opposed to a place that will track you down because that's not sustainable. For us. Oh great.

C

That's I'm, like I I, want to do that initial, like hello you're, you may not see me here again.

C

Alright, so what it's 10:00 a.m. Tuesday I'm, taking notes 10:00 a.m. Tuesday? Is it bi-weekly Tuesday.

K

B

G

K

G

K

Starting with the next meeting on July 7th.

C

All right and then the next item on the agenda was charter changes. It's not something. We necessarily need to dive in deep here, but I'm just I, just put it as an issue just so that we can remember some of the stuff, because, right now our Charter is pretty much the bootstrap charter and we've pretty much graduated from most of those phases so and most of the roadmap. That's in the Charter is done so either making some other new roadmap or making it more full, making it more full charter.

C

Now that we know a little bit more about what the hell's going on here, that's really it and then obviously Carolyn also wanted.

B

C

Bundle in the new chair change as well. So if there's any other charter changes that y'all suggest what.

B

Are the chairs explicitly listed in the Charter because I don't think they should be or need to be, rather some gaps on that side as well as I noticed that I didn't want to bundle it with my PR, but I can send a follow-up. We don't have sod listed as one of our TOC liaisons we're not listed in the TOC repo at all. Well, rather, we don't have our own page thing right. We are listed on the readme, but not as a separate readme. That I guess would link out to our a pimp or something.

C

Yeah we are going on yeah, we are in the Charter and I think. The reason why we did that is because that's what the other CNCs projects do, gosh.

C

Why don't we our concerns with that I yeah.

B

I, don't have super strong opinions, I think that, like just having one less place to change, you know like when we do when we do a charter update and in kubernetes say right like we don't we don't look at updating, chairs or include chairs in the Charter, it's just yeah, yeah I'm an approval side. You know not having to look at chairs and just having them. If they're listed in one place, then we only have to update them in one place.

B

It's a it's, a it's more of a laziness factor than it is a charter specific factor.

C

And I don't think I can share my screen. Don't try to try right now. That's what my confused face is for.

C

I

No MacBooks lockdown, sorry.

C

Privacy at Apple, sorry, alright, so no I was just gonna. Do a quick boardwalk, um any other things comments about charter Josh. Do you feel like you, have anything else that you want to do? Charter changes for outside of the roadmap, II stuff.

K

No not really, since we found out that chairs actually have to be approved by the TOC yeah there's. It would be nice to have a line about that. In the Charter explicit to say, hey chairs are approved by the TOC I mean I, know that's in the TOC documentation, but it's hard to find yeah.

B

And further for the TOC documentation, what it, what it mentions is an election to appoint chairs. Basically, it sounds like it reads: for the instantiation of a cig, not necessarily for its continuing operations, so I think we should. We should help to clarify that. Okay.

C

I just put that in the issue, all right, so we'll get the Charter changes next week as well and then Amy. As far as charter changes go once we've submitted the PR TOC we'll need a vote on that correct, not.

G

Sure I need to go back and look okay, I mean.

E

G

For the pier to come through and then I'll work to be able to clarify this, actually, this would be a lovely thing to be able to quit in T or Tuesday slides.

B

This is speaking of probably our most important point that is not on the agenda yet is that we have a meeting on Tuesday.

E

B

The TOC and we.

H

B

Do the presentation for it slide.

H

You'll be fine.

C

My only one slides you.

G

Slide you'll be fine.

C

It's definitely not not too serious, so we need chair boat on there. We need do we do do. We do question marks. What else should we be updating with TOC on Monday earth to.

B

Step use for whatever working groups we have spent up already so so mention I. Think it's worth mentioning the new time for the governance sub-project, the that we're going.

J

B

That we're going to pump the blog at some point, the blog post at some point and then also that the maintainer circle will be coming soon. Dm I said.

L

That five times already I'm not gonna lie we're.

B

Worth repeating, I mean honestly, like so like I, think I. Think specifically for that one that trying to do outreach across like we said it already, but like trying to do outreach across multiple projects right. We have to make sure that people are aware that we exist and can come to us. So we aren't doing consistently trying to reach across multiple projects.

C

Alright Karen did you go to the last? um Oh god is it already Friday um contributor.

I

Approach meeting did you know: I had a huge training like count on you know, sitting okay,.

C

um Have you been to any because I have not and that's why I guess I've had a time conflict? What's what do y'all tell me about what are y'all working on in there cuz I wanna. Add that to the TOC thing as well.

I

I think there's, like templates yeah I, feel like um like contributing guides in okay, cool, thank you and then I think as of right. Now we are reconsidering our meeting time so I don't know what we settled on it. Yet there's no time.

C

Time and calendar stuff don't just get anything more right.

C

I did that template's coming along a contributor guide et al and then that we're also putting together a template repo, like some kind of boilerplate contributor, boilerplate repo.

H

C

And then Josh wage you at outside, of like the new governance some time time. What did you want to update for governance, hi.

K

So next meeting we're gonna be talking about the remaining sort of governance, documentation, which is the main product of the governance WG, that we need to do and trying to hammer that out so that people can get working on individual pieces of it.

K

And the other thing is it's important. The multi organization requirement for graduated projects is going to be one of the main agenda topics at the next toc meeting.

K

So that's continued to be a major item of discussion and it's going up to the TOC and when the TOC makes final decisions, it'll be our job to actually document those and then write advice to the projects on how to fulfill the requirement.

B

So question is: there? Is their project onboarding related things that you have listed already yeah.

K

If hold on, let me let me paste the Google Doc, okay,.

B

I say that because now becoming a maintainer of Dex and having that moving yeah and to the CNCs yeah.

K

B

The process right now so it'd be good right.

K

B

K

B

With beginner eyes,.

K

And- and it would be lovely if, if you can actually cause like part of it is basically I was thinking of hold on. Let me find the dock, because I haven't divided out into sort of two major divisions right, there's the stuff around the requirements and then there's the stuff that general governance advice. Aside from the requirements and.

K

Sorry, Google Docs and you know in so one of the things I know that we have been sorely missing is a document that says so. You want to become a sandbox project, here's all the things that you need and how to actually do them, because I'm.

B

K

Through this, with some of RedHat sandbox projects later.

G

K

G

Can talk about like these sandbox? Definitely, you know on a future meeting with me. Yeah.

K

Some of it, like one of one of the sore points, is roadmap, because what is a roadmap depends on which toc member you ask um currently, so that's something that I think we're gonna need to write out. Take to the TOC. Have the TOC approve it, because there has been differences of opinion there and it has led to projects having to rewrite things several times forward.

G

To you, while fixing this yes.

K

I think we're gonna come across a lot of those well we're gonna need that feedback loop with the TOC, where we do a hey. This is what looks sensible to us based on the existing written requirements like.

B

K

You please approve or revise this, so that the projects have detailed written requirements and they're not guessing on what they need to provide, because.

B

K

Situation right now and totally.

B

Agreed that it being confusing and having to rewrite it multiple times, it's not great. We so for me on the sandbox level.

B

You know what I'm thinking about is the first stuff a first set of stuff that I'm thinking about is what's the baseline requirement for us to be in considered to be in compliance as a sandbox scene, CF project, because there there's like that stuff and then there's a whole bunch of other stuff right and then and then how do we start looking ahead like what does it look like to get out of the sandbox and it's a incubation right and then drawing yeah it'd, be interesting to see what a project plan looks like for that across a generic project plan.

B

I, guess right, yeah.

K

And and I really do want to get the sense of an idea of sort of progressive maturity because, for example, right now in the sandbox requirements, it says you must have governance documentation, but it doesn't really say with that consistency.

J

K

Doesn't add any requirements aside from multi-organizational for.

K

Graduated and I really think there should be a sort of progressive maturity here right because I think for incubating projects. It should be requirement of hey. You just have to have some documentation for our governance actually works, and that structure needs to be theoretically open, whereas.

E

K

Graduated there should be a lot more scaffolding for how people progress to governance roles so.

B

Yeah so I think that one part of that, because the the meeting that I was in right before this is later Karen is around sustainability right, because we often are kind of running out standing up these projects and then have to get to the point where we have to pull back and look at the way we do certain things and- and if that's sustainable like if you think about the way we do reviews in github or the way that BOTS work and yadda yadda yadda right and like how do we get people looking at that stuff earlier right so like for for Dex, it's like okay, well, I know we need a website, we don't have a website right now.

B

I know that there are, you know, 100 issues or something and a few pull requests in there that need to be triaged. How do we appropriately do triage like? How do we make sure that a project is there as they're maturing the all of the all the process isn't strictly on the maintainer earth right? How do we? How do we have build things in place to make sure that you know they don't have to be the only ones doing yeah, certainly yeah.

K

Well, and one of the things that already came up in last week's governance meeting was the suggestion and you know, will propose this for graduated projects at least the graduated level. The project should have some kind of community manager.

K

um You know whether that's you know a staff member assigned by one of the sponsorship companies or somebody from the community, or you know something else, but but there actually needs to be a community manager role at the level of graduated project, because you know otherwise, even if the projects in great shape at the time that they're promoted to graduated they're, not necessarily gonna, stay that way right.

K

B

A good point: the.

K

And you know, and that might lead to a CNC F program where you know if a project is too distributed among various sponsors, for anybody to assign one staff, member that maybe they pay the CNC F to have a community manager. But the I think it's something that a lot of projects haven't really thought about.

B

K

They're not cuz they're not used because they come from teams who are not used to having access to Community Managers, and so it's just not something. They even think to ask for.

B

Yeah yeah, when you were when you were saying that it got me thinking about like what does a program for that look like and then a program of those programs right. So if there are program managers, community managers within each of those and I mean maybe this is maybe. This is exactly what we're talking about like.

B

What's maintainer circle right, but the you know the idea that a bunch of Community Managers can get together a bunch of program managers and maybe they're the ones who they're the ones who coordinate, giving updates those things you have based on project status or something so like that's kind of how I'm operating for four decks right now, yeah I mean.

K

It has to be staged because, like sandbox projects as a rule are not going to have Community Managers yeah unless they're only in this in box, because I mean.

J

There are some larger, better funded.

K

Projects but I can tell you for a lot of the sandbox projects. I deal with like they're totally engineering staff is three people and so they're. Just not gonna have a community manager person yeah.

B

For I mean for me, it's really like bolstering I would see like the first step of bolstering maintainer shipwright, providing you know providing means of you know, because there are lots of things to do on that list of onboarding for the CF. But you know probably the biggest one is like do. We know who adopts our project today and do we know like because those are ideal opportunities to bring in maintainer right and do we know who would be willing to be a maintainer?

B

Do we know what's required, because once you start getting to that larger project level, I mean we deal with it in kubernetes right they, you know who's who's, a reviewer, who's who's, an approver. Who can be that stuff? Do we understand a clear path to get to that point right so establishing that stuff early on is I, think I think is really important.

C

Each I wanted to actually I'm actually thinking about doing a manifesto. mmm My first one in my life and the funny thing is now that I'm, not a goob I'm like oh.

C

So I'm, just like life.

D

B

All timing, right, you know when it's right, it's right.

C

All right, I also have officially wrangled and Karen to help out with maintainer circle, too I told her that one of my biggest problems right now is we have some of the content. We have the goals, we know what we want to do.

C

My blocker right now is that I don't want it to be another zoom meeting like, but at the same time like maybe our first one should just be like that to get us off the ground, but anyway, Karen's really good helping out with, like you know, obviously like the camp cloud native like just being a little bit more creative on the like meeting side. So I asked her nice.

B

In general, yeah I mean like coordinating creative.

C

Here, because I can always run a Sabourin zoom meeting like I. Could you right now and like whip us up an inclusive language? The meeting, but like me, I.

B

I really I really don't want and I think I. Think I probably speak for a lot of people saying that, like another meeting, is not the place great another meeting that doesn't like derive the right amount of values. It's not a good plan. I think that what I would like to see it out of the maintainer circle is that you just you, feel it yeah like you, feel supported right and that doesn't need to be on a meeting I.

B

Don't think that trying to get all of our maintainer zin a room on Tomb is going to be effective anyway right, but I want you to feel that presence know that you have people that you can reach out to to bounce ideas off of so I. Think that you know, maybe even as the first start is getting more people on that mailing list right, because if it's, if it's only like 17 to 20 people right now, we can we can do better right.

B

We can so that, could that could be a first certain if we're just taking ideas around on on on the mailing list. To start you know, say: GARCH has an idea where the way they they run their meetings is essentially you don't you don't get onto the agenda unless you've discussed it on the mailing list? First right and and it's it's a little bit like I like for cig release. My meetings are a little bit more loosey-goosey freeform.

B

If you there a few top-level agenda items, but we can talk about literally anything during those but I do like, on the architecture side like you're, forced to have a deep discussion about some of the stuff before we all right, let's bring in some eating and make a decision right so.

C

Smaller groups like under 20 people and then they would just like fill up but, like you know, kind of like what we do for the chairs in tech Li. It's where there's the same theme each month. Obviously, there's gonna be different conversations based on the different people there, but we're all talking about similar things so like, for instance, July.

C

If it wasn't July already July, we could do like 10 mini maintainer circles on inclusive language, but we give them all the same materials and and then we kind of somehow like combo, all of that knowledge in like a place and like. Obviously this is all a DVD. This is just in my head, but some kind of way for us to do this smaller chunk thing because I like what you're saying I, don't want a hundred people on a show up to the zoom meeting and honestly, we could probably get over fifty honestly yeah.

B

Yeah, that's what I mean across all these projects like when we're. If we're actually pumping this stuff everywhere yeah, we could end up with a bunch of people on these, so I, you know for for me. Ultimately, I would love to be able to. You know to this mini maintainer thing. I would love to be able to like review a doc and then be like okay, don't all right! That's the aggregate of those 10 conversations or something right and then produce the larger, the you know the top level doc to say like okay.

B

Well, this is our policy. For that thing, I mean you look at naming and so for working group naming which for people on recording that's just formed on the four as one of the kubernetes working groups, that's dedicated towards you know determining what inclusive language looks like in the project and and moving moving towards eliminating some of the non inclusive language that may be in the project. Today, the we made a strategic choice to work with the people that were working with right now.

B

So the you know, if you look at the makeup of of the the chair section right, you've got you've, got representation from contributor experience and and docks, as well as the COC or the COCC code of conduct committee, and but also looking deeper at that you've got representation on the Li from the CN CF level right.

B

So the idea with Celeste and Zack was was to also work on doing this on the CN CF level, so that it's not just it's not just information that we produce as a project that can potentially be used for scene CF projects, but moreso dogfooding and information that can be used as a template to define policy on the CN CF level that is enforceable across all projects right, so we're trying to think bigger there so get definitely getting maintainer ideas. I saw that Derek had mentioned. You know.

B

Red Hat has a doc out about inclusive language. I. Think Google has one too, but like yeah, getting everyone getting everyone grouped together and figuring out how to do this, as a team makes a lot of sense.

D

C

I feel like a good goal for us would be to launch in August. It we've been really great to launch roundcube con, but like I, don't.

C

You're a flash August, but we don't really have any yeah I.

B

C

How we could still do this without being on the schedule? Well,.

B

Iii think that I think that you know as long as it's happening in the background and when we're still pushing it, then it's fine if we want to say that it's a post cube con launch I'm, just trying to think of like from the perspective of people that might be working on something for a cube, Connor pushing towards cube con I. Don't want to add another task to their list.

B

I know that like keynote Rep is- and you know, is in the works for me- and people are starting to like get their deadlines for recording talks for a cube, con and yeah. So I think a few things going on where we don't, we shouldn't necessarily add to people's plates, but I do think that it does give us an opportunity to get the message out. We just have to think about how to do that in a nice way.

J

C

Definitely want to take advantage of.

B

Kind of critical mass of a colony, but.

C

Nancy add something about the maintainer circle in her comes about the intros and stuff for the community groups.

B

Probably and I mean this could even be yeah. This could even be slipped into keynote as project updates, or something like that right. Just we, we can I think we can figure out a clever way to do it. Let's let some chat more secretly later.

B

C

Right well did anybody else anything else to talk about today, I mean we definitely have at least a 10 minute update for TSA. So as long as we have 10 minutes, then we're fine, oh actually, I did want to say one thing and I do need eyeballs on this one. This is about I, think cube edge. Okay,.

B

C

To me, and where is it I'm going back to my slack, is a cube edge? Is that the right one am I saying the right one.

C

There's too many cubes y'all.

K

Yeah cube edge I'm still waiting for Qbert to be a project yeah.

A

K

Do darling I, don't know what it'll do, but it should make a loud clunk winner, I.

B

Could've sworn I turned my speaker's off and yet Hubert.

C

So they made references and their due diligence that, like the community, is growing and people have pinged me and said: what do you think about this group? um What do you think about their contributor? Their contributor strategy and I have not read it so if and then Josh, if you want to just take a take a brief look at like their governance, I.

C

Don't need to give some huge due diligence we weren't asked for that. It was just a glance over kind of thing: um I, don't think we should give due diligence and less. The TOC officially asks us for due diligence, um but at the same time I feel like we can say: hey good job or hey. Why you doing it this way, Iowa.

B

I would say we could is a person a maintainer, or they just pass her by of cube edge like what.

C

It was a passerby and then it was somebody on TOC. Okay, it was a passerby TOC comment. It wasn't a like that's what I'm saying it was and I told them specifically hey. You should get you see like tell us these things officially so yeah. This is not an official TOC ask. This is someone on TOC. That was like a little kick.

B

It out yeah I would love to see the doc. It would be cool if eventually, we got to a place where, because like for me I, you know we're not we're not TOC but like for me. I see this as almost like a a presentation right like.

J

B

You know come to one of our meetings, like we block out some time, come to one of our meetings and check out like and and talk to us a little bit about what you're doing, and maybe you maybe the folks in the room, can get ideas, and maybe that becomes something you know part of something official, that we do right.

C

I think concern with uh I think the concern that a lot of folks had in the beginning when we were talking about when we were trying to form our Charter is that we didn't want to do it for a million projects or that we just don't have the people yet for a million projects, kind of thing, yeah.

B

So staring at this really quickly, I mean the you know, I think about this. The you know I'm. Looking at this issue and I'm looking at you know, thinking about the way we do onboarding for like release, managers or something right and and they have they have an onboarding doc now for onboarding issue, template I, think for for sandbox projects and so on and so forth, but like I want that to be a checkbox checkbox thing right, like what does consideration for for incubation?

B

Look like because it's great to read stuff, but it's even better to be able to like make the stuff that you're reading actionable. Really, oh, that's! We already did that. Let done right and- and it makes you feel like you're, making progress across it.

C

Some of these graphs that they give or just like who cares sorry cube, edge um and I know that's why I'm like I, don't know if that's TOC telling them that they need these certain graphs but like why? Wouldn't there about commits per repo I.

B

Think I think they're strictly trying to show activity right, because one of the expectations is that there's consistent activity across time, I.

C

Show that in 800 million different ways, though you know what I mean it's like well again,.

K

This is, this is one of the problems with not having detailed written requirements, as in the TOC has said, you must show activity and they haven't said what specific metrics will fulfill that, and so the people who are proposing these just say well. I'm gonna give you a blizzard of every measure X and.

B

E

K

You can pick what it is you want to see like.

B

I, don't want I'm, sorry, okay,.

B

I was like I: don't want I, don't want a project to have to do that. Right like we provide yeah. It should be it. You know again to Josh's point like you.

B

If you give me a requirement and you don't tell me exactly how to do it, I'm I'm gonna do one of two things: I'm gonna ask you exactly to do it and if we don't have the time to do that, I'm going to bring you my interpretation of your ask right so so one to have a very clear ask about how to do these things or to make it not even necessary for you to need to do those things right. We have dev stats, yeah.

I

B

That stuff, like what I'm seeing, is a stripped-down stripped-down JPEG of sandbox.

K

Proposals, though, because those projects are not in dev stats, yet gotcha.

B

So are they? Are they not allowed to be a desk? That's where they are they not in dev sense. Well,.

K

For any project to be edited, dev stats, that's a manual step by a CNC F staffer. So it's not going to happen.

K

B

So I mean they are, but this is due. Diligence for cube edges are already a CF project tree yeah.

K

So if you're already a CNC a project, then that totally works anything sandbox on up should be already in dev stats. Right.

B

Right so for sandbox and low-low for pre sandbox right, then the requirement is whatever it is. It's much lower and I. Don't think we need to prove any contribution. What I'm saying is for a CNC F project you we should leverage the resources that we have. So if we ask people for contributions, it should be appointing someone to a desk that stash word and well.

K

Honestly, we shouldn't even have to ask them to do anything right if their stats is there. The sig should already know that right. That's.

B

K

Gonna click on their dev stats. That's.

B

That's what I mean yeah yeah? This should not be. We should not be work additional work. Okay,.

C

What I wanted to say, too, is like honestly they're giving me like they're interpreting this as this right like we're this meaning the CN CF requirement says this, and my thing is I I'm not kind of okay with that, as long as they tell us. Why, like, why was it? Why is this chart important to you like? What is this show ank me it's almost like a like. If you're gonna give us a chart, then at least say: why is this important? Why is this impactful? Why is this?

C

You know what I mean like kind of like to.

B

Be fair if you look at the contributor commits thing immediately above it. That says like demonstrate a substantial, ongoing flow of commits and merge contributions, and then they show the church, so I mean they. They are I. Didn't.

C

See that one I saw.

B

And are you you're looking at the DD doc yep.

C

And I'm seeing go.

B

L

Layer go to page seven I'm, actually I'm doing line by line hold on I was just doing the Ridgid. If.

L

K

K

C

Like so it says we are convene a consistent stream of improvements and features from the maintainer Xin, the community. Oh.

B

Sorry, you know what I'm looking at I'm looking at, if you scroll to the bottom, there's a DD doc. Oh yeah, I didn't.

C

B

C

B

I thought this was I actually thought. This was an issue, not a PR, but the DD doc is stronger. Okay,.

C

Yeah see I was looking at the line-by-line PR. That's why I was just that's I'm like it would because, like they kind of said it in the in their PR, where it was like yeah look, this shows maintainer improvement, yeah.

B

C

It's still kind of like, but what does that mean, though you know um so what let me review the video right now, I.

B

Mean it's it's! It's 14 pages.

B

I mean the the the general idea is like this is something that we can definitely take a look at and see. If you know, does this I figure if they're there doing a DD it's because someone has someone has like looked over this and given them a template of some great I.

B

Think the you know, if you consider the like submitting a sandbox proposal itself right and trying to figure out what you need to put in there like they give you an idea, but I think that I think that what we initially wrote up for, like Dex, was was kind of off the cuff right.

B

So so yeah short version I agree.

C

I feel I feel dumb right now, I'm, sorry, what enough was probably not the right word. I should use either. I am for this. The the word dot earth time not word doc to Google, Docs and I'm. Looking right now is.

C

Is this the template that all the due diligence get the get this? This is a template. I have.

B

A feeling because they've got they've got like points rate scenes have yeah CN, CF, graduation criteria specifies point and then keep edge. Answer right. Yeah I didn't.

C

Know this was I can ask her obviously, but I didn't know if this was like need of this document. Are we gonna know if this is like a TOC document? That's, oh! No!.

B

It's being, it looks like it's being run by Elena yeah.

K

So there's a general template, but a bunch of the SIG's have modified it for their individual see because, for example, if it's a signet working review, there's a bunch of stuff, they want to know about how it integrates with other network layers of cloud native networks. That you know is not going to be present for other kinds of projects.

K

C

So look they do de yeah now I'm now I'm on the pay. I think. Are you on the same paid? The open governance is that where you were looking at yeah.

K

And I was actually poking around their repo and honestly I would green light them on governance based on looking at the repo. They have pretty clearly documented governance and from what I can see that has resulted in vendor-independent running of the project, so yeah.

E

K

Mean I could delve into it some more to see if there's sort of a hidden imbalance but I, don't know, that's enough reason to block it. Yes,.

B

I mean this: just am sorry.

K

B

Yeah, so just the speed reader, the the DD like yeah, looks pretty strong yeah.

C

That's thinking that too, it might be nice for one of us to comment on the issue too and say that like looks dope, this is some official thing, but we've just done a glance over and like hey, that's actually a really good idea. Like we'll say: hey we've done a glance over, but if you all want to call me and give us so like a little update or a presentation on what y'all are doing, that, we would be totally down for that.

C

You know I mean kind of saying, like hey, we've done a glance over, but if you want to come talk to us more about contributor strategy and or governance topics, we'd love to hear how you all are running it. You.

B

Know I mean I would I would love to do something almost more asynchronous right like if we can and not from the perspective of like what can y'all present to us, but maybe even like what can we do to help you right? So what does like so our like our VP of engineering, has a forever email that he sends like there's a feedback form included right at the bottom in his signature right and he's like.

B

If you ever want to chat with me, or you want to submit anonymously back about how we're doing stuff, you can just submit it right, so I think I think a feedback form could be interesting for like what would you fix about this process right? Are you? Are you having a good time trying to submit for for incubation like where are the gaps right and then and then doing a comparison across multiple submitters, whether it's in the form of feedback?

B

You know feedback, quick, you know quick sheet or full-on survey right, I, ultimately, ultimately, just want to make sure that we are like do we need to pull them in for a presentation. I know. I mentioned presentation: no.

C

I'm saying that it's like a no it's like an option to them. It's like it doesn't need to be like I'm, saying like hey if I'm gonna come, give us like a presentation or if you want to come talk to us or ask us question like just kind of opening the door of like we're here, and we want to know more about you and if you want to know more about us kind of thing. So.

B

I did good I think it.

C

Just kind of like a friendly olive branch but yeah I mean I'm looking at it, I don't, like I, haven't seen one flag at all. I might. But my other thing is like how do we really know, though? Like obviously you know, we've got and we're like so close to time. I'm. Sorry, like obviously, we've got this block of things like hey, they've got 14 maintained, errs and yeah.

C

We can go and look at that, but, like you really don't know about like, what's going on until you're like legit in the project you know like so like even on the kubernetes side, sometimes it's hard to see like oh we've got blockers in certain areas and you don't necessarily see that from like a blurb of me talking about it, you know.

B

And it's also like it's also sighs overall right, because if you look at you look at kubernetes compared to like maybe any other project and the CNC afraid it's like we've got, we've got macro and micro issues right.

B

So, if you touch, if you touch something on the sub-project level or you touch something on the working group or sig level might be very different, then your consideration, if you were touching something as a steering member right looking at how all of these things interconnect right, you might not not necessarily be doing that so I think, like someone's ingress point to your project, is important right and if, if the you know, if the project is like a singular repo and that's it's fairly easy to craft that experience right, but you know for kubernetes we're we're like 200 repos or something 200 plus repos, maybe even it's a little it's a little trickier to like you know, make make sure that that's a good experience for everyone, assuming that they, you know if they don't have the right pointers to canonical Doc's like Kay community right.

H

K

hmm You know what what.

H

K

Think it's the case of not being open but I'm, actually looking at because we have dev stats that cube edge definitely has an issue with being dominated by who away.

B

K

B

K

K

B

Looking at commits or contributions, and also we I, don't think we need to get into this now. Yeah.