Cloud Native Computing Foundation TAG App Delivery / Cooperative Delivery WG, 14 Sep 2023

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From YouTube: 2023-09-14 WG Platforms - Maturity Model

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TAG web site: https://tag-app-delivery.cncf.io/
TAG Slack channel: https://cloud-native.slack.com/archives/CL3SL0CP5
TAG git repo: https://github.com/cncf/tag-app-delivery
TAG meeting notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OykvqvhSG4AxEdmDMXilrupsX2n1qCSJUWwTc3I7AOs/edit

A

A

B

Hey how's it going yeah doing good me share H. Where is it yeah said he will be late, uh but I think we can.

B

Start you want me to share my screen and we can go.

A

Over yeah, that's probably that'd be awesome. If you don't mind, yeah helps to keep us aligned.

B

Yeah, you see my screen.

A

Now yep I lost my window. There we go now, I got it.

B

Yeah, but for some Reon, oh here it is okay: okay, cool uh I suggest we go one by one and then you know have a discussion and see if we can tackle everything today. If not, we set up go.

A

Look just to something clear what our goal today is to what it's not just to resolve the comments. Is it to identify what needs to happen still or or what is the goal.

B

The goal is to be as ready as can be with the document. Okay, I think I. Think John, uh like I, don't think we spoke or met before for.

C

That's correct yeah, um so I worked on um the initial uh document review a little bit and I worked on the uh investment part. The Deep.

B

C

And um I saw this come up and I have this time free, so I uh decided to jump in cool.

B

uh Yeah uh so initially a tool took a uh took the time to build the first draft hi VJ.

D

B

How's it going.

D

B

And I'm Abby and I made some addition. Then Marsh got in so I think we we we already had quite a few iterations on on on the on that on the interface part, so I think we it's not just resolving comment. It's reaching like an agreement and or disagreement.

A

Build consistence and and make progress on the do that makes sense to me.

B

Okay, yeah yeah, so I I I, suggest I suggest that you'll start with this one, because I.

A

B

If I missed it, but I thought like and there's like discrepancy between the two docks.

A

Right yeah, the discrepancy is, is mostly My Fault by the way I I I'm, the one who's resisting the word interface, but I can talk about that in a second, would you mind um zooming to 125% or something just a little bit more, so it's a little bigger y I can do this. Another.

D

One, oh yeah: that's.

A

Great thanks that helps that helps thanks cool.

B

Do you want to talk.

A

About yeah I'm going to talk about the in the table, actually where it says API contracts too, because to me.

A

um And full disclosure, like my background, is in API management and so when I think about API contracts like I I, think platform engineering is very much oriented towards helping teams create services that Expose well-managed apis, and so when I see API contracts.

A

Here, when the platform is in the service of AP, of helping teams build API contracts, then I know my world's collide and so that that may be a me problem and not other people's problem, um and you can you like, so you feel free at any time to say no you're too API obsessed we're going forward with interface. That's fine or contracts, that's fine, but that that's my point of view. Does that make sense.

B

Like your, your suggestion was to have a Rob, robust, API and I'm, like both both options.

A

Have the API well integrated yeah to to me look I think: what's what's the goal in L4 to me, it's that the platform isn't a place. You go to. It comes to you and how does that happen that happens through tooling that leverages the platform's capabilities in often through an API it? It may be wrapped in a CLI, but all of these things are built so that they can be well integrated with other systems. Is that fair.

B

Yeah I think this is also what we wrote in the in the level four section, which means you can extend the capabilities of your platform, not only by having a predefined solution or gluing Solution on your own, but have those apis to be able to build on top of and create your own platform. So if you go to the team topologies one like they're talking about platforms of platforms right, like you, you can beat your platform using some Services. Then another folks, like another team, can take your platform rip it up and.

A

There's one more piece that gets me when it's written as API contracts, because the API contract is just the beginning of it right. What I think this really means is that it's a well-managed API and what I mean by that is that you understand how it's being consumed, because you're issuing credentials that make that possible that it um that it has robust Protections in place like good, thoughtful quotas and there's a process in place to get those changed when you need them like. How do you prevent accidents from taking down the platform?

A

That only doesn't happen because you have an API contract that happens because you have a well-managed API. So to me the word API contract here is just it's a it's triggering a bunch of responses that I have and that's why I was hoping to find another way and I. Think if you can switch to the other document. I think I did a better job there, trying to explain that.

B

I I don't find any explanation here. So maybe maybe I miss I just.

A

See yeah yeah, yeah, okay, good good, good, like this is better. So if, if we're good with this presentation of it, then I don't have an issue, we should move forward.

B

I want to like integrated services to me, doesn't really.

A

Yeah yeah so good. Like said, let's find a better phrase then, for this.

C

So, uh just to throw my monkey wrench into this, like um I I, would kind of agree with uh what I think Marsha is saying a little bit as well, because um it's not just API it's uh it's the entire platform right which could be tooling. It could be the API. It could be the uh VPC, well, the cloud that it runs on. You know it's all of these things combining together and it could be even multiple apis like you might have tooling.

C

That goes out to one API to get this that API to get that combines them all together, changes settings whatever and then pushes out what you need. um I'd say that, because I'm actually working on that tooling right now for Chrome, Weare, so um nice, um so yeah I, think it's more than just API.

A

So so so the whole row, then, let's talk about the whole row, because it's called interface and I struggled with calling this in calling this interface. I was considering this to be interaction which I think mirrors. What's written in the description there, how do users interact and consume platform capabilities? To me, this is this is about interaction, so adoption is about getting people like that's like a it feels like acquisition in many in a sense of like users.

A

How are you requiring users, but really the interface to me me or interaction, is how are how are people working with these capabilities and and so to me the word interaction feels more I. Don't know less encumbered, maybe is is the is the so I was arguing that interaction here is a better word than interface, because interface invites a bunch of questions about. Are we thinking UI? Are we thinking CLI? Are we thinking, API um and and.

B

All those things matter like I I, don't interactions to me like so I I again from my interpretation interactions, are human interactions usually, and this not like we what we usually what we don't want to get to level four with human interaction. We want to put you interactions aside and having the self service capabilities, automation apis, whatever you call them through uh uh uh those Services I I'm, not a fan of the API contracts, I'm I'm, happy.

C

B

Like the the the the other thing, was, the robust, like robust to me, was like what so what what? What is not robust, API what are not robust apis uh like a tool V since, since it's just the five of us, yeah I, think we should at least have a quorum here or to get a.

C

Decision uh so for me, um uh I I, don't see a problem with uh the interface uh kind of uh where, in and mentality like to me like whenever I hear interface. In this context, it's more abstract for me, I, don't think of like a gooey or CLI tool or anything like.

A

That, okay I can I can live with interface, I can't live with API contracts. That's my CH! The challenge I have and I think about this to some degree as engagement, this whole row and and I don't and I'm, not actually even sure how much supported capabilities and self-service capabilities in two and three like is that the right framing for what we're talking about? What really is this?

A

What what are we saying anyway, I I know: we've talked about the Matrix here, A bunch of times in the past, and so I don't want to relitigate any of that yeah if we don't have to, but that that's the part, that's where, like the overall framing of this section is, is causing me.

B

Headaches at BJ.

E

I yeah I think if I had yeah, if I had to uh add to this uh based on you know, whatever Marsh has mentioned, or the discussion that happened right now, I think for the last column you know API contracts does uh you know, probably give out a message that we are restricting it or we are containing it to that. Okay, this is the only way uh you know to interact, or that is what will happen so uh I think.

E

Yes, probably changing that to uh you know integrated or maybe maybe you know framing framing or coming up with a better word. uh You know, instead of probably integrated services, which basically puts out a message that you know at that level. When you have a platform, it's it's not just uh the apis, but you know there are a lot of other means with which they can interact with they can extend. It extend the platform as well, so I think I'm convinced a bit on that particular part.

E

uh As for the interface and interaction, I'm, happy with the interface as well, uh what what we have currently.

A

Shash can I can I add to that so agreed with what you're saying here: here's what I, as you were, talking that's what I was thinking about is that actually bespoke processes feels reasonable, like what are you doing there, you're proving out that you can build these tools in the first place and then I think supported. Solutions is like hey. This is ready for people to use, and but it may take a little more handholding to get it up and running. It's not necessarily self-contained.

A

The third bit is that, like hey, we have all of the enable enablement pieces here together so that you can do these things on your own without requiring handholding and the fourth one is actually I. Think beyond that. It's that it's that the tools you're using anyway are already wired into the platform, like you, don't even have to think so much about adopting things you're, just as you work it is built into the platform. Does that make sense? What do we and what we call that to me? That's well integrated.

E

Yes, I mean uh even when I was going through it. Like you know, level three is where probably you did mention about idps coming into picture uh and then probably level four would be where they have paved parts or golden paths which is defined by the time they come to level. Four.

E

Where, where you know things would be more automated uh in a way so I think uh I, I'll, probably note down something because I'm not very good at just coming up with words or phrases just instantly, so I probably have something rough written down if you're looking, you know for for a different word here,.

B

I think I just realized what what triggered me like in the integrated part, because in level three we what what what we call the self service solution. These already have a a well integrated capabilities, because, if I'm asking you the platform, give me I give me a project like a a project. Quick start I want a I, want a git repository I want a pipeline. I want a uh uh let's, be specific I want a pipeline. I want a uh I, don't know a a a an an an a container registry uh uh artifactory registry.

B

All of that I can I. Can you can you can build it like a around self Sal solution and I can take this run? It and I'll have everything I need compared like, alternatively, you can think about building databases and and and and streaming services, and all of that, like you, you can wrap all these capabilities, but it's still up to me to take them and run them and manage them in in in a self-service way, but I I still have to run it, whereas the level four one.

D

I I think well.

B

Integrated like thinking about it again like now now, I see where you're coming with the integrated services.

C

So maybe if I uh can I can try to like okay, so um I think I see where we might be headed with this, and it's more of like uh with level three. It's like the tools are there to give you what you need, but whereas uh the difference between that and like level four might be that they are actually like more best spoke and the tooling itself will customize it to what you need in to build your platform out, um whereas, like level three might just be like okay, I need a DB I need.

C

uh You know an API I need whatever, um whereas level four would be more like. This is how I want to set my structure up my platform up, and then it just builds it and does it? Is that maybe in line with what we were going.

A

E

A

The feels like the right direction at.

B

Me so so integrated Services now reads better to me than like robust apis and.

A

Yeah know good I, like integrated services,.

C

A

Dit, it's almost when I think now now, when I look at L3 I'm imagining these tools to solve specific sort of problem silos and to me L4 is more about these things. Working in.

B

Concert or you can build onp top of them building at concert like.

A

Yeah yeah also that extensible is also I, think.

B

Extensibility part is something really hard on level three, because.

A

B

On me to orchestrate, let's take my example: if on Self Service solution, I have now I have to uh uh go and get the the git URL, the the the image repository uh all those kind of end points or parameters that I need to inject to the another. Another service I might need now to configure my application to rely on those kind of things and without an API I have to glue all of them.

B

Together, okay I'm putting this comment: if, let's see integ service.

A

Thank you by the way, sorry for facilitating this and taking the notes, because we, we should all be doing this too so.

D

Yeah we had this uh conversation a couple of weeks ago, a couple of at least a month ago, exactly on the APA contracts, and we ended up in okay. I think uh we had to figure out something else, and then this is the right timing, and even integrated Services seem to be much more meaningful in this context, so I'm I'm up for it as well cool.

A

Okay can I now, let's look, let's reflect because I still like it. On the left hand, side, the description is the best part of this Row. For me, it's how to users interact with and consume platform capabilities, and and so what we mean by that is what are the interfaces available to users and then we go. So then, then, is it right to think that bespoke processes fits into the category that we've defined here and supported Solutions and self-service, Solutions and and well integrated or something integrated Services right? Do those things feel like they reflect?

A

What we've set up.

A

D

I think I I do.

E

Find find a growth or, or you know, progression in in these terms. uh You know that that are mentioned here. So you know right from like we discuss, you know, bspoke processes where absolutely there's nothing present, and uh you know someone just Cooks up something that okay. This is what I need and they have a script and that's how it works, and then uh you know they they move on and then they realize.

E

Okay, there are other people using this particular solution in place and and those teams come together and that's when they offer a solution that okay, you know hey, maybe uh you know, since since a lot of teams are using this, this is probably uh you know something that you can use to. You know, let's say, create your infrastructure or provision your database uh and that's where I think the the journey continues from one person to a team having a supported solution and then coming up to something like uh a very primitive uh developer platform platform.

E

If I can say where, where you know these are provided as Self Service that you know, I, don't I, don't have a dedicated team sort of who who's. Maintaining this particular solution or supporting it, but then now I have a platform where I can request uh what is needed and then obviously moving on to the uh integrated one. So I think I'm convinced with the terms that are here based on.

C

E

Understanding but yeah open to discussion and figuring out if there's anything better.

A

I I agree with that there, the progression seems to make sense, I think that challenge I have is, or the thing I'm wondering about actually I'm, not even sure how B big a problem it is um is the whether whether each of the things are describing the interaction right or the or the, inter, like the bespoke process. If you do you mind s scrolling up a second just to just yeah thanks.

A

um To to me, in some ways this is really about what is the user experience for your platform? Users right to me, I think it it's uh you like when you're dealing with bespoke processes, it takes.

A

Some to me I think of this as handholding like you're trying what's happening here. These are early tools you're trying to validate whether they're doing the right thing, supported, Solutions is is, uh is still not self-service, right and self-service. Solutions I think means the enablement is all in place and and optimized is really that it's everywhere already like you, don't think about it. It just happens in some ways, and- and so that's less about the interface to me, then it's about the user experience which is different from adoption.

A

So at some point we have to make a call and just keep moving forward. I. Just to me, I still see that there's a discontinuity between how we've framed the line and how we're talking about each of the columns here but.

B

A

B

I, don't see it this way, I I think like to me, but but again, I think a quum is the is the best way to to be able to to have a to reach to any kind of decision, because, yes, at at the end here, it's it's like. Even the interaction is an interface and again I. Don't want to call the book like too much, but even in team topologies, they they they try to coin the term team interface, which basically says this is my.

B

This is the expectation when I, when I of of the services my team, provide. Even if it's not you know what we call in software interfaces, so I think interface talks both about the processes that, like the ma, the manual disjointed processes that exist on level, one which might be maintained by many different team, with no alignment, no organizational structure or standard I think we called it called it that in the in the level, one where all all the way up to what we now call Integrated Services, which has a strict interface.

B

We really know what we're getting.

A

Yeah, so to me, what you just described so is a is a in some ways: it's like as a user. What is the investment required to realize the results here and I think that is, uh is really speaking to the sort of framing of the user experience throughout these four stages um but, like like I, said so, I don't know the answer uh I just this is my hesitation about it and we all we're like we're up against some deadlines. So I can live with interface. I can live with what we have here.

A

um My only question is: can we do better? Is there an opportunity to improve there, and if people don't see that as an opportunity to improve, then we should just keep moving so John VJ. Any thoughts on on where your head is at heads are.

D

At so so, I know this. uh One thing like AB was ab and, like the Josh was mentioning earlier that uh yeah, any big changes at this phase might uh lead to the different col that that's that's one number one thing and number two: we always can version IE it and at this point I don't want to at least I, don't know in the sense like I, don't want to see big changes in the main table that maybe like we can reiterate, based on how the finalized data set comes.

E

D

A

E

D

One of the word that was mentioned, which is um um platum, enhance extendability. That was the from that, was the first conversation that I still see any any leader that when they look at this table, and uh the first question that comes is that uh how this platform is going to be extendable and what I haven't seen that wording in this, and uh but still I felt like okay? Maybe we can explain it in one of the tables, but like those like a few words that are really important for these maturity models and.

A

Yeah I think um by the way. One thing that's helped me in talking this through with you all now is that I think there are a couple important points that should be made in the introduction to interface that can help frame and deal with the issues that I'm talking about so I. Think I've made a couple notes to myself and I can add that content in there.

B

C

Yep cool yeah and for me uh interface, makes sense like.

D

C

Like we can have like an application programming interface face, we can have a user interface whatever just like you can have an object in a programming language right, but at the abstract, the abstract of an interface is nothing to do with any of those things it's. It can be everything just like an.

A

Object yeah I, think what's interesting, is in the in the in the rows of the table. Adoption is about the people problem. Getting people in the door is interface about the capabilities. I think it might be uh to some degree, but to me I think it's the user experience of those capabilities. It's have those things intersect, but let's keep moving because we have a lot to cover. I have a I have a note to myself. I'll, add it to the interface intro. Thank you.

E

For by the way and I I think just to you know continue where vij mentioned about extensibility and sah.

E

Also talking about it earlier, you also mentioning it I think it does make sense to mention it somewhere at the scale level, because that's where we discuss you know that at the third level, you'll have everything in silos and that's when you want to glue all of them together when you move to level four and that's where you know I, think it's it's more about making probably uh I mean sorry making your platforms a bit more extensible so that by the time you are at a matur level, everything is glued together and you are able to work with different silos, which was not the case in the earlier one.

E

So probably you know I I I'll, try to uh you know, work on it and see if we can fit fit that somewhere in uh in in level three or level. Four.

A

Cool, do you want to add a a note, a comment somewhere that you'll take that in one the section I will do I.

E

Will do that yeah.

B

Cool should we progress to level one I I see your editing right now.

A

B

We can, we can R it offline.

D

B

Should progress to level one and see where we're heading uh so you you already talked on that, like decentralized PR, centralized stage.

A

um I, don't know if that's particularly like to me bespoke what what is what does bespoke processes mean here like to me I think these are uh because this is so early you're like trying to solve specific problems and you're, not yet thinking about how you're going to onboard people to them you're just really these are these require a lot of uh knowledge transfer. Personto person before you can really leverage them is the way it makes sense to me what what what does it mean? What does bespoke processes mean to people here.

B

When you say decentralized and pre, centralized it really to.

A

B

The as the goal is to be centralized now yeah, it might be the goal to be centralized, but I don't want to I. Don't.

A

Think positioning Lev reject it. There I agree with you, I agree. It suggests that you should aspire to something and- and that's not fair.

B

No be I'm, not a native English speaker, but like a b spoke processes to me, it reads like something which is commonly known to to a lot of people in the organization. But it's it's it like it's a word to mouth thing or.

A

So because the the spoke I just looked it up to get a precise one, it's made for a particular customer or.

E

User, okay, so it's probably something which is very tailor made or something for me. So let's say five of five of us are in the team and it is something that let's say: I have a set up with some ec2 instance that.

D

Is something which.

E

Is very particular, very personal, or you know, based on what what I work so, whatever processes we have, it's like each five of us might have five different scripts or five different processes built for each one of us.

C

E

What my understanding was.

C

Yeah, exactly and I think I might have been the one that introduced.

A

B

It's a great word, I'm thinking of just.

E

A

My my lack of uh no no, no, no, no look.

C

Okay, we all come with I'm thinking of like a bespoke suit. Right, like you, get a suit.

B

C

B

C

No one else can can wear that suit and make it look good right. So it's bespoke in the sense that it's you know we have a solution for this one thing that came up, and so we made that, but it can't be really be shared across different um problems that you're trying to solve for it's.

A

B

Right, so what about calling it tailored processes like.

C

Scrip that works.

B

B

Explicit I'm, sorry for my no.

A

This is good, actually, the phrase custom fit feels like it should be in here.

B

B

Okay, do you want to read so we have sorry for the zoom yeah I I suggest we read we take like a this is what we usually do in Amazon, but uh have like a two minute read, and then this discussion.

A

So sorry may I ask a question to me: I think of level. One is like this is this is organic like this. This to me is you know there are lots of teams solving similar problems and your goal is to identify commonality and share effort. I think there isn't a platform, there isn't a platform team in level, one right, they're they're, just people who are thinking cross team looking for opportunity to increase efficiency like hey. How are you solving this problem? Hey we're doing this hey.

A

We should maybe stop solving these over and over again, like that.

B

I I think this is what, if I remember correctly, what I read and Chang like proposed the other day Okay. This is exactly um I. Think I've even added this one like as a as a as a positive note on that level.

E

B

E

Good, so let's.

B

Let's read all of that and then feel.

A

B

A

B

B

B

B

Mar, if you can maybe put be in suggesting mode when you doing the edit, so we.

A

The problem is that is my. That was my suggestion. So, uh okay, it doesn't. Let me suggest on my own suggestion, but when we rejected the the centralized framing, then this sentence didn't make sense. It just needed an.

A

Update but fair point, that's probably a tricky read: I'm changing it. It's a.

B

E

Now are we good yeah yeah I've gone through it I I? Probably one thing: that's just uh you know uh bothering me, but not much is see when we, when we talk about tailor, process Pro the provisional level. That's where you know existing I mean basically there's nothing which is existing. There are individual people who who have some some some requirements and the processes are tailor made to them. So I think the moment when you start I mean currently.

E

If you see it starts by talking about and I'm, coming purely from the content and orientation of the text that we have here. So we We Begin by talking about that. We that people realize that other people are having similar problems and that's where uh you know the the they realize that you know they need Solutions. uh However, I would feel that I feel that you know we.

E

We should probably start by talking mentioning that there are individuals initially who have uh you know who have certain requirements, and then they have processes which address those needs which are very specific to that task, and then we delve into that. Okay, then, because an individual is doing, there might be some- uh you know, interactions between the team members, so there is some form of knowledge sharing between individuals and then we get into the the the actual thing, so I feel probably uh the line which, which I have highlighted these processes address immediate user needs.

E

I think that is something which should probably be the opening part of of this section is, is what I.

B

Feel yeah um I I just put a comment here. uh So so you know if you, if you wna, if you want to open like rephrased it, I I I wna, I w to comment on this. One I I think this this whole section opening uh it belongs to level two Marsh uh and and happy to have a discussion on that because I think like the tail process- and you already- you also mentioned this on the on the provision of level- there might not be even a platform team.

B

There can be a three four folks who decided they don't want to. They had enough with manual tasks and they want to create some automation around something, but it's only ter to the specific needs and they work disjointly. Some. You know: I I'll, I'll, take the ads example: one work with CLI one would work with bot 3 the other use infrastructures code and they whole create the same thing using different, tooling different standards, different everything so and and there's even no thinking within the organization to centralize to to.

A

B

A

Okay; okay, like that.

B

Think about startup when you're, when you're at the startup phase, you want to go fast, you don't care. If saki will do that and Mar will do the other way. As long as we have two services to provide service to our customers, which we need the fund to get going and then we can think about.

A

Good this uh this reshapes, my thinking too, about the problem, then the way you said it um I think this is people solving their own problems and it is distinctly not centralized or even cross team did I understand what you're getting at sah. Okay great, then, yes, then I agree. So this is um this is isolated Solutions in many ways at this point, okay, so then, then I agree, and this should should move.

A

uh I can move it um into the level two section, because that makes more sense and I have a better understanding the definition by the way. This is what I think the whole SE. The whole breakout section is meant to deal with like we're, trying to frame it for everyone. This is helpful thanks, yeah.

E

A

The only thing.

E

Is this happened a little late because both of us were occupied but I'm glad this is this? Is.

B

Happening cool uh like jumping I, will just continue as this, but free to jump in if I uh going forward. uh There's a comment here on provision capabilities, so I I think it comes from the white paper right like no. Not this one come on here.

B

um Like here and I always try to refer back to this one like what is the platform inter integrated collection of capabilities, Define and present according to the needs of the platform users scatting, there Ure consistent exper, like consistent experience for acquiring integrating typical capabilities in services for broad sales of application and use cases. So I think this is I. Don't remember who put it like whether it's was you a tool or me, but I think this is where it's coming from at is the way I read it.

E

And is the same in my head as well. Capabilities are more like the offering of the services that the platform gives, so provisioning capabilities is essentially like providing services start.

B

Off now, if we, if we disagree with that, we we can I'm just saying we should also like, with a phrase like if you want to expand this, we we should probably comment on the white paper itself, but trying to be aligned with that and I I haven't read your response like uh to, but.

E

Is the same thing, what I just said so I just I, just put it there earlier in the.

A

Day: okay, hey.

A

Good collection here, I mean so like I think when okay, the the last conversation we just had, was about I think the sort of isolated Solutions like these are. These are disorganized like there there's people solving their own problems right. This is not shared by definition. So what is a collection in that case? I feel like we. What we haven't captured. What we need to nail in the beginning is the thing that I hadn't, understood until you said it.

A

The way you did sah, which is that um the these are these are solutions that have essentially grown up to solve problems there. There is no sharing at this point right that that's what's missing. For me in this section, is that the there are problems that exist that people are solving, but there's nothing, that's uh being shared or very little being shared. At this point,.

E

Right so I think that's what the uh edit, which I probably want to do so uh yeah. Basically, when I, when I spoke about moving things up, that's where I think it. It will probably make much more sense.

A

E

That reframing comes into the.

A

Okay, cool, then you just leave yourself on that you'll you or do it yeah great cool thanks. Thank you. Okay, that's the part. I was missing for understanding the rest of it thanks yep thanks. That's that helps.

E

Me I'll refas them better, but yeah. This is just as is right now.

B

Yep I think, if I put where is it I've added a comment about what you've said couple of time, Marsh, which is quite helpful uh people solving their own problems without sharing knowledge standards, uh I've I've added the standard to me. This read like this. This doesn't really relate to anything I've added this and I'm happy to remove it um and I'm.

B

Also talking about mentioning interface, which is not like in level one I, don't think we like anyone, think about interface, that phase that devil, um not to mention composing Services together, so I, think I'm. Happy of removing this.

B

One now the other thing I've added here- is that uh try to put like the the positive angle on of of the section, because all all the way up to here we discuss what what's wrong with this level and I. Think like and Abby Abby mentioned, I think it was in level three or two uh that uh we should we should. We should start with either start or end, but like be consistent around like it. Doesn't one adding a positive note and be it can't be that a level can be bad for someone.

A

B

A

Important Point really important point. This is not judgmental like this is the reality of where you're at and that's good, like you're, on a path, a.

B

Yeah yeah, uh so this is this one.

A

um I I really like what you have here. I would just accept it in if you're able to or maybe we're is anyone an editor or are we all.

B

No I'm I'm, just suggesting I, can accept it. If you, you want to addit something I, think and and there's.

A

There's like no station.

B

At all here like this is the whole point. I think like I, think we need to to make sure that in the tailored processes there, no there's no standardization they're, disjointed scattered around Solutions processes, whatever we call them that users create for their own.

B

B

Cool and and the last question here, I think I think you've added this one uh right, like I'm I'm, not sure how the same here like how this connects to to the level like it sounds like a definition need to Bubble Up into the here, like the I, like the introduction phase of the maturity model, rather than being.

A

On yeah yeah, I I, don't feel like this is fits into the breakout for interface. Yes,.

B

So can I reject.

E

It yes, I think we can reject it.

B

E

There on the call right.

B

No I didn't oh, it's Callin.

A

Not NS, sorry, it's Colin! No! Sorry! That's! Okay!.

B

Oh I, like should.

A

We why we're doing this yeah uh you're, adding okay.

B

Yeah, let's do.

A

A

Okay, go ahead and you can reject it. Then I added a little rationale for why we did this.

B

I think um yeah. This is what I thought it. It removed all the for some reason. It removed this section that we agreed to yeah.

E

B

Why why is it doing that see when I accept this one? Okay, now.

B

It's this, this is where change tracking goes beyond my my.

B

Capabilities cool: uh should you proceed to level two? We have like 10 minutes.

A

Do do yeah. We can do that. You want to accept a tools intro at the top.

B

Indidual Solutions address immedate teams needs that divers there. There might be no.

B

A

To I think we can continue to word Smith it, but generally I think it. It frames nicely like what's the reality, what's the landscape look like here and then then there's the softening that says hey. This is okay. It's good to be here.

B

You're cool, so maybe maybe I, maybe I should like. Maybe we should start with a positive note and I.

A

D

A

It's hard to it's hard to have the positive note when you have you're, not quite sure what we're talking.

D

A

Yet, okay, cool.

A

I mean and look that's the that's. The Trap I fell into with level. One was not having the right Framing and now that now we're starting with that, and then we're like hey great, that you're here glad to see you okay level. Two you want to read through it. Zah like we did last time.

B

I think it helps.

E

Great now, I think the the mar what you moved from level one to level two. It makes much more sense.

A

Y I think you're right, I think you're right.

E

A

Oo, I love aby's, edit I think that's.

A

E

E

A

A

I going need more time on section two I'm right.

B

Cool so I I'll go first I I I have nothing to comment. I I'm happy to accept all changes, as as they are I just think. I've added this as a note, I think it's I don't know if it should come here. I I put a comment here or should come first, but I think it it's an option to call out that this level might be the first time that organization realize that they need a platform. They need a team like it can one team.

B

It can be multiple team, but teams, but it's the first phase that I okay.

D

B

Have to do standardization, yeah, I, dig.

C

It uh I'm basically in the same boat um like with the edits we have and uh like aby's edit, taking over, that uh those that one sentence um I'm.

B

C

Nothing you think it should do. You think.

B

It should come last like here in the last part, as a as a closing.

A

E

A

B

E

Maybe you know this could be uh fit. I mean this could be fitting well right at the second line as well. So when you start this level when you say that at operation at operationalized level, people begin to realize, other teams are dealing with similar problem and that's when organizations realize that you need a dedicated team or a team who can work with the solutions. So I think that just gels well with the complete flow that we.

A

Have yeah I have a line I can drop in there. Sorry I.

A

Think that's the is that what you're trying to say? Yes, okay,.

E

So in my head, I read it as a completely story that okay level one it was completely.

A

You know individualistic.

E

I come here and then I have I realize others are having problem. That's when I realize oh okay, I might need team to take care of this, and then we build upon.

A

That good good good and by the way, I I'll Echo. What I heard from sah, sah and John that the the section is in decent shape actually y.

B

Can can I can I accept all of these yeah one by one.

A

I think we'd be in a good spot to do that. Yeah, okay,.

B

E

Let's do it like: there is a different level of satisfaction when you accept such.

B

Changes, let me let me switched more.

E

I think in terms of language, I I'll take some time tomorrow and just just polish, the language here and there but I think in terms of raw structure. It uh I mean things, do look.

E

B

Those yeah those.

B

B

Oh uh I think we're right on time like two minutes. uh What do you want to do? How do you.

A

Sorry I had a call I had to drop for a.

B

Second, do we want to finish now and and schedule another one.

A

Or we can we? Oh, oh I, see sorry. The question is yeah where we.

D

Have two minutes.

A

What we do, okay, we're at time, look I, feel like look. We began at 50 that we were 50% earlier that that that and I feel like we are. We made great progress already so um can we do the rest of this asynchronously from here? Do we need another followup? Is that your question s.

B

uh Either that or we should we.

A

Should I'd love to continue, but I have to jump to a different call.

B

So so, let's do that, let let's let's try to read and every addition every comment: let's try to be descriptive, one to the other and either thumbs up thumbs down with the rationale behind that or you know, with the rationale behind.

A

Yeah, removing it um yep I think that sounds good there. You can also use Emoji their reaction. Emoji. You can use to Signal support without having to trigger a email, notifications, So.

B

Okay cool, so let's do that and try to I, don't know, let's put a go for like early early next week. I know it's almost.

B

Friday y, like around.

C

B

A

It's that sounds good. Thank.

E

You, for that, can we change that draft Readiness to stabilizing now.

A

Yeah from I'm inclined to say yes, the only my only hesitation is that it feels like I I. Don't I, don't have a good sense of how far we are, how far we are from done with levels three and four, but I'm generally.

B

I I think we are. We are more than 50% complete, so I'm with.

A

B

It to stabilizing.

A

Great love it excellent thanks and as a we can.

B

We can do version.

E

B

See you next time.

D

D