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From YouTube: WG Platforms Project Meeting - 2022-11-30
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B
B
It's
nothing
really
special,
just
Untouchable
kind
of
like
nobody's
allowed
to
touch
anything
in
this
area.
C
A
All
right,
1002,
let's
go
ahead
and
get
started.
I
want
to
get
as
much
input
from
you
all.
While
I've
got
you
as
we
can.
A
C
A
A
Sweet,
so
this
is
getting
recorded,
we're
still
figuring
out
how
to
get
those
published
by
the
way
and
we're
trying
to
figure
that
out,
but
just
FYI.
So
what
I
wanted
to
do
today
and
I
I?
Thank
you
all
for
joining
is
go
through
this
paper,
but
I
put
down
some
things
that
I
I
kind
of
want
to
get
close
to
finalizing
with
you
all
I
think
so.
I
wanted
to
just
bring
them
up
before
we
even
start
like
to
think
about.
As
we
go.
A
First
is
I
kind
of
want
to
know.
Do
you
think
we
have
the
right
set
of
top
level
headings
here
and
that's
kind
of
goes
towards?
Actually
the
last
thing
here,
which
is,
if
we
do
think
we're
getting
close,
then
maybe
the
next
step
is
to
chunk
this
up
and
put
it
into
GitHub.
You
know
each
section,
maybe
independently
for
debate.
A
Another
big
thing
I
wanted
to
bring
up
and
discuss
that
it's
kind
of
been
coming
out
in
the
the
comments
and
the
discussion
that
there's
a
couple
different
layers
here,
there's
kind
of
like
this
base
layer
of
I
mean
this
is
a
hypothesis
is
what
I'm
learning
from
talking
with
you
all
but
kind
of
seems
like
there's
a
layer
of
capabilities,
and
you
know
pieces
that
then
some,
then
that
might
be
called
a
platform
just
that
base
layer
and
then
there's
a
layer.
A
That's
often
built
on
top
of
it,
which
maybe
is
a
developer
platform,
which
kind
of
give
you
know,
chooses
the
subset
a
profile,
I
guess
of
those
capabilities,
so
yeah,
I
guess
I
just
was
curious
and
I
want
to
get
people's
feedback
on
that
as
we
go
through
and
then
the
last
one.
Is
this
that's
kind
of
come
up?
What
is
a
platform
team?
Is
there
more
than
one?
You
know
what
is
their
job.
A
A
D
B
E
You
joined
hi
everybody,
so
my
name
is
my
name:
is
Pascal
I'm
a
developer
and
normally
Solutions
architect
here
at
Red,
Hat
yeah?
So
that's
my
interest,
cool.
A
All
right,
so
what
I
was
gonna
do
so
right
now
we've
got
the
the
top
categories.
Just
this
introduction
and
then
in
the
intro.
You
know
it
does
take
a
little
bit
of
a
stand.
So
you
know
I've
opened
the
comments
on
that
that
platform
engineering
is
a
form
of
Cooperative
delivery
and
that
it's
you
know
a
form
of
devops.
Then
it
lists.
You
know
this
is
what
we're
gonna
do
kind
of
a
table
of
contents,
yeah
and
I.
Guess,
let's
just
walk
through.
A
So
it
starts
out
with
the
value
of
platforms
like
I'm
I'm
kind
of
interested
in
this
paper
to
not
only
help
platform
Engineers,
but
also
like
help
leaders
like
execs
or
Architects
like
understand
why
they
should
be
thinking
about
it.
You
know,
maybe
they
already
are
a
little
bit,
but
they
don't
know
why
maybe
they're
not
even
thinking
about
it.
So
that
was
why
I
kind
of
wanted
to
start
out.
You
know
explaining
and
I
just
put
it
explicitly
here.
We
can
fix
up
the
pros.
If
you
want
what
is
the
Computing
platform?
A
Why
would
you
want
one
yeah
Computing
platform?
That's
that's
one
that,
like
I
just
tried
to
be
generic
here,
I
see
Thomas,
you
commented
like.
Maybe
we
should
discuss
about
you
know
other
other
perspectives
on
what
a
platform
is.
B
But
it's
not
necessarily
application
teams
right.
It
enables
teams
in
an
organization
to
do
stuff
right,
I've,
seen
platforms
that
are
just
as
much
focused
on
infrastructure
or
security
or
so
I
wouldn't
pin
it
into
application.
Product
teams.
A
D
I
wonder
if
you
could
bring
that
section
up,
so
it
just
do
like
values,
platforms,
attributes
of
teams
that
build
platforms,
then
what
are
they
building
like,
then
the
so
you're,
starting
from
the
like
what
and
who
and
then
dropping
into
the
like?
How
and
more
detailed
stuff.
A
So
maybe
the
attributes
of
platform
teams
should
come
right
here.
Would
that
would
that
make
it
clearer
if
it
if
it
came
up
here.
A
Yeah,
that
was
my
kind
of
thinking
too,
like
a
platform
like
we
talk
about,
it
has
to
be
improved,
based
on
Commerce
user
select
platform
as
a
product,
and
then
so
then
we
can
say:
okay.
Well,
that's
that's
what
they're
trying
to
do
then.
Obviously
the
top
job
is
to
research
platform,
user
requirements,
but
maybe
to
to
Thomas's
point.
Maybe
we
can
have
a
pointer
to
that
or
something
up
here.
C
Yeah,
my
point
was
more
about
like
what
is
a
platform,
but
it's
very
heavily
related
to
the
organization
structure.
So
it
would
be
nice
to
first
know
or
understand
what
is
a
platform
and
then
detail
organizational
wise
like
how
do
you
work
with
platforms,
and
that
would
be
the
platform
team
concept.
A
I
think
so!
Well,
so
what
do
you
think
about
I?
Guess
that's
what
is
a
plus,
so
this
you're
saying
this.
This
is
saying
how
an
organization
would
organize
a
platform
team
where
you
know
how
to
what
does
it
mean
I
guess
what
I
was
thinking
here
is
what
does
platform
team
mean
you
you're,
coming
into
the
space
fresh
you're,
an
exec
and
you're
like
platform
engineering?
What
is
it
so
that
that
was
kind
of
the
you
know?
A
C
A
A
D
Then
I
won
but
I
don't
know
Josh.
If
that
changes
too
much
your
intention
of
the
sentence
as
well,
but
that
was
just
the
there
was
a
comment
there
made
that
just
that's
why
I
went
as
a
suggestion
rather
than
as
an
edit,
though
so
that
you'd
have
a
chance
to
read
it
and
yeah.
A
I
I
think
you
yeah.
Thank
you
for
catching
I.
Guess
that's
what
you
were
getting
at
Victor,
yeah
I
think
that's
great
I'll.
A
A
Okay,
here's
a
place
to
bike
shed.
This
is
where
I
was
talking.
This
is
what
I
was
bringing
up
before,
like
I,
guess:
I
call
it
a
cloud
platform:
I
I,
don't
know
what
everyone
else
you
know
wants
to
call
it,
but
it's
when
I
think
about
it.
I'm
thinking
about
this
collection
of
services,
but
then
a
lot
of
the
feedback.
I
think
for
everyone
was
that
there's
developer
platforms,
which
are
maybe
more
opinionated
versions
of
this.
B
So
I
don't
like
this
part
at
all
because
of
numerous
no
many
times
repeated
Cloud
internal
developer
platform
or
platform.
Whatso.
Not
right
is
that
simplifies
lives
of
engineers
in
a
company
right
now.
Theoretically,
whether
that's
cloud
or
that's
Mainframe
or
that's
I,
don't
know.
Edge
Computing
should
not
really
matter,
I
mean
yeah.
We
all
like
Cloud,
I,
I
I,
don't
want
to
go
on
on-prem
ever
again,
but
it's
not
really
about
cloud.
D
D
Word
cloud
adds
to
it
right
so
if
I
were
to
read
the
sentences,
modern
Computing
separates
capabilities
used
by
applications
from
the
runtime
machines,
like
I,
think
we
would
agree
on
that.
As
a
group
I
think
correct
me
where
I
go
wrong
and
then,
like
correspondingly,
a
modern
platform
offers
self-serviceable.
So
like
you're,
you
sort
of
use
the
word
modern
and
cloud
and
I'm
not
sure.
If
you
need
both
and
if
cloud
is
creating
divergences
or
like
differing
you
know,
understandings
that
might.
B
B
Oh
so
another
thing
so
I
haven't
been
involved
before
so
I've
stopped
me
at
any
moment
when
I'm
talking
but
I
guess
when
we
are
talking
about
platforms,
it
could
be
a
AWS
is
a
platform
by
itself
right
and
I'm.
Guessing
that
that's
not
what
we're
talking
about
here
and
we
are
more
focused
on
internal
developer
or
what
is
commonly
called
internal
developer
platforms
right,
because
platform
itself
can
be.
Azure
is
a
platform
that.
A
B
Kind
of
people
replace
word
platform
with
Azure
it's
apart
from
now,
if
you're,
covering
all
sorts
of
platforms
from
Heroku
to
self-built,
that's
great.
If
you're
covering
what
people
build
in
their
companies,
then
I
would
go
for
IDP
or
something
like
that.
B
A
B
A
I
think
that's
exactly
like.
Let's
say
Azure
has
you
know
web
apps
and
it
has
functions
and
it
has
databases
and
it
has
observability
systems,
and
you
need
that
in
your
Enterprise
correct
you
are
building
I,
guess
that's
where
I'm
kind
of
like
I
think
this
is
the
question
like?
Are
you
building
an
internal
Cloud
platform?
You
know
wrapping
azure's
platform.
B
So
here's
a
question
essentially
basically
I
see
two
approaches
and
I'm
going
to
ridiculize
it.
A
bit
fun
approach
is:
let's
see
in
both
approaches.
There
is
azure,
but
approach
is
here's
a
credit
card.
Dear
developers,
here's
a
credit
card.
There's
Azure
go
right.
The
other
approach
is
we're
going
to
build
something
on
top
of
it.
That
will
make
it
easier,
more
streamlined.
Whatever
you
want
to
call
it
right
and
both
not
judging
one
or
the
other
kind
of
like
just
trying
to
distinguish
those
yeah.
D
It's
not
always
just
easier
as
well,
though
right,
sometimes
it's
viable
like
if
you're
in
a
an
environment
that
has
security
requirements
or
costing
requirements
or
whatever
like
so
that's
so
I
again
have
just
sort
of.
D
I
switched
to
its
suggestion
mode
because
I'm
not
confident
in
it
yet
but
like
an
effective
internal
platform,
offers
a
business
customized
and
maybe
it's
and
self-serviceable
offer
offers
business.
Maybe
the
S
should
stay
there
for
offers.
E
D
E
A
B
C
In
the
comment
there
was
about
considering
yeah
call
it
Cloud
native
platform
as
an
architectural
style,
so
this
is
the
type
of
like
product
we
are
working
with
and
that
is
like
can
be
implemented
in
different
ways.
So
one
example
would
be
the
what
is
called
internal
developer
platform
that
supports
the
developer
in
the
path
to
production,
but
we
could
yeah.
We
might
need
to
build
a
data
platform
for
doing
some
machine
learning.
C
It
could
be
any
other
kind
of
platform,
but
all
following
the
same
architectural
style,
the
same
properties,
the
same
approach
that
is
described
in
the
document,
if
that
makes
sense,
and
that
could
be
also
resulting
in
a
layered
approach,
because
you
could
have
like
a
core
platform.
That's
the
basic
foundation
and
then
different
teams
could
build
on
top
of
that
one
responsible
for
the
application
platform,
one
for
the
data
platform,
but
still
sharing
the
same
API
approach,
same
architecture,
same
principles,.
E
D
The
way
I
look
at
these
layers,
I
just
agree,
Thomas
the
way
I
look
at
the
layers
is
like.
Basically,
all
we
I
brought
this
up
a
bit
later
in
the
document.
There's
a
point
in
which
we
talk
about
like
developers
versus
operators,
and
we
talk
about
offloading
to
the
platform
and
I
think
that
like
diminishes
the
value
of
what
the
platform
teams
are
doing,
because,
in
my
opinion,
the
platform
teams,
one
or
many-
are
literally
just
encapsulating
another
product
team.
D
They
are
building
and
operating,
something
that
gives
value
to
a
user
and
if
they
are
able
to
build
and
operate
everything
using
only
one
team
worth
of
humans.
Do
it
lots
of
organizations
do
that,
but
often
you'll
start
to
find
divides
there,
where
it's
like
the
humans
that
know
how
to
build
and
operate.
D
Databases
really
effectively
are
different
than
the
humans
who
know
how
to
do
like
developer,
tooling,
who
or
who
know
how
to
do
networking
or
whatever,
and
so
you
end
up
getting
these
like
ish
different
split
UPS,
where
you've
got
a
team
that
builds
and
deploy
and
operates,
networks
who
their
users
or
other
platform
teams
who
are
building.
On
top
of
that
Network
to
to
deliver
a
different
different
product
to
build
and
operate
a
different
product
for
a
different
internal
team.
D
D
Where
you
put
that
Josh
of
like
there
at
one
point,
you
say
like
the
plot.
Maybe
there
should
only
be
one
platform
here,
I
think
it's
a
comment.
Maybe
it
should
only
be
one
platform
team,
even
if
there's
lots
of
component
teams
underneath
and
like
that's
an
interesting
theory
around
like.
Is
there
a
single
product
owner
for
an
entire
ecosystem
of
apis?
Or
is
this
more
like?
D
B
But
if
you
see
platform
teams
sitting
on
top
of
them
actually
basically
combining
all
that
work
into
something
than
it
is
one
team,
without
entering
into
discussion,
whether
it's
one
person
or
50
right,
but
they
they
will
not
write.
All
your
terraform
manifests
right.
Somebody
already
does
that
their
job
is
to
make
sure
that
you
can
use
those
benefits
in
a
very
easy
way
and
streamlined,
and
you
know
for
non-terroform
experts.
Let's
say
that
would
be
my
explanation
right.
A
Interesting
interesting
yeah,
what
I'm
hearing
from
you
all
is
it's
kind
of
this
pyramid
shape
like
these.
My
guy,
these
folks
at
the
bottom
might
be
compute
network
storage
or
something
you
got
the
terraform
gurus
that
know
how
to
put
together.
You
know
complete
templates,
and
then
you
have
well
I
guess
what
we're
calling
platform
team
which
publishes
them
on
a
portal
or
something
like.
D
User
experience,
so
this
is
Thomas
your
point
of
the
different
types
of
platforms
to
like
you
might
have
a
user,
a
team
that
is
well
versed
in
the
user,
experience
of
data
engineering
or
a
team
that
is
well
versed
in
the
user
experience
of
software
development
or
that
and
again
that
might
be
one
team
that
does
user
experience
of
all
users
of
this
platform,
or
it
may
be
that
there
are
different
Specialties
depending
on
the
size
of
your
org,
and
so
you
may
end
up
with
those
different
kind
of
designs,
depending
on
the
different
use
cases.
E
And-
and
so
the
question
becomes,
do
we
focus
in
this
article
only
on
the
platform,
which
is
the
top
layer
for
Developers?
How
do
we
cover
all
of
the
layers,
and
then
that
becomes
quite
quite
something.
B
If
people
focus
on
all
of
the
layers,
we
would
essentially
be
focusing
on
whole
software
industry,
which
would
be
we.
It
would
not
get
us
anywhere
right.
We
just
need
to
assume
that
the
work
is
also.
Work
is
already
done
by
different
experts
right
and
now,
of
course,
in
some
companies
things
are
mixed.
B
You
will
have
one
person
that
the
tiny
company
does
all
three
of
those
right
layers,
but
let's
assume
that
there
are
those
layers,
even
though
one
person
can
can
be
in
multiple
ones,
and
we
are
interested
really
if
we
focus
to
anything.
But
what
is
written
right
now
is
user
experience.
We
are
doomed
to
never
get
anywhere.
C
What
about
focusing
on
the
capabilities
right
because
I
see
them
as
like?
Each
capability
is
provided
by
a
component.
Then
we
have
this
catalog
of
components
and
then
you
can
assemble
you
pick
and
choose
the
components.
You
need
to
assemble
the
specific
platform
for
the
your
use
case,
rather
than
just
talking
about
layers,
because
it
might
be
a
bit
limiting
because
there
are
so
many
combinations,
but
having
more
all
these
components,
this
catalog
of
things
that
you
can
put
together
in
a
standard
way
with
same
API,
same
approach
of
integrating
things
can
open.
C
Also
for
further
discussions
like
we
can
select,
or
we
focus
on
this
set
of
capabilities.
There
are
more,
but
they
all
work
in
the
same
way,
the
way
that
we
integrate
them
and
build
or
address
new
use
cases
and
new
scenarios.
D
Maybe
I
don't
know
something
about,
but
it
resonated
the
idea
of
like
a
floating
platform
so
to
your
point,
Victor.
If
we
bring
in
all
the
layers
we're
like
talking
about
the
whole
industry
like
we
don't
need
to
talk
about
power
supplies
anymore,
because
we
have
companies
that
do
that,
like
Google
and
and
they're
with
all
the
companies
with
their
data
centers.
D
What
is
the
thing
that
actually,
the
only
thing
that
actually
matters
to
your
business
is
what
that
should
be
your
platform
layer,
how
you
actually
deliver
it
can
evolve
as
new
options
come
on
the
market
and
to
your
point,
Thomas,
like
you
piece,
different
things
put
together
and
all
that.
So
how
do
you
float
that
platform
above
any
specific
tool.
B
Yeah
well,
in
other
words,
how
do
you
make
that
those
disparate
experiences
right?
There
are
terraforms
and
security
scanners
and
kind
of
57
000
different
tools
and
interfaces.
How
do
you
put
it
all
together
into
into
a
single
interface
for
Simplicity?
It
could
be
more
the
people
this
is
very.
This
is
backstage.
Let's
say
that
I'm
a
platform
engineer
I'm
focused
on
Backstage
yeah.
There
is
already
junkies
running
right.
A
Whatever
it
is,
I
was
thinking
on.
This
is
like
we're
trying
to
guide
those
people
to
tell
them.
You
need
these.
You
can
assume
you're
gonna
need
these
10
capabilities
you're
at
let's,
if
you're,
building
an
app
Dev
platform,
I,
guess
or
you're
going
to
need
to
provide
observability
you're
going
to
need
to
make
sure
you
can
provide
a
database,
provide
an
identity.
So,
like
these
user
experience
guys,
what
should
they
ask
from
these
bottom?
Compute
network
storage,
databases,
people
you.
B
B
B
You,
what
do
you
guys
need?
What's
your
problem?
Kind
of
like
oh
I,
have
I,
don't
know
how
to
define
and
deploy
my
application.
Excellent
I
can
help
you
with
that
and
then
The
Story
Goes
that
that
person
might
go
to
some
kubernetes
Guru.
Who
will
give
him
a
Helm
chart
that
he's
been
working
on?
He
will
make
it
etc,
etc.
Right.
A
B
A
Yeah,
oh
yeah
yeah.
Well,
we
can
go
to
capabilities,
but
that's
what
I
was
that's
so
here
like,
for
example,
web
portal,
apis
golden
path,
templates,
building
and
testing
automation,
delivery,
automation,
this
one
I
just
added
today:
research
and
development
environments,
observability
Services
infrastructure,
which
is
compute
network
storage
data.
We
can
come
back
to
this,
but
I
think
that's
kind
of
what
we're
talking
about
is
like
what.
B
A
B
My
head:
what
simplifies
this
discussion
about
those
that
you
have
now
is
three
two
layers.
Essentially,
what
I
see
is
platform
engineering
teams?
They
have
a
customers.
Those
are
all
the
people,
potentially
all
the
people
in
the
company,
and
they
have
providers
that
provider
can
be
that
network
engineer.
That
provider
can
be
AWS
as
well.
It
could
be
internally,
it
could
be
external
right,
you're,
basically
creating
a
bridge
between
providers
of
services
and
end
users
right-
and
it's
at
least
in
my
head
important
to
distinguish
that
we
have
those
two.
C
I
think
that's
represented
nicely
in
the
picture
a
bit
down
in
the
document
like
the
two
parts
with
apis
for
the
users
and
that
whatever
infrastructure
provider
that
it's
outside,
like
we
don't
care
inside
the
platform
itself,.
C
A
This
bottom
layer,
yeah
I,
like
you,
calling
them
providers
that
almost
makes
me
so
this
I
feel
like
this
top
section
and
it
even
says
classic
platform
as
a
service
from
the
likes
of
Heroku
and
Cloud
Foundry
exemplified
Cloud
platforms.
This
could
be
that
providers,
layer
and
maybe
that's
an
infrastructure
platform
I,
don't
know
I'm
a
little,
not
sure
what
to
call
it.
C
B
So
I
I
would
really
I
think
that
you're
complicated
complicating
lives
with
two
layers
below
platform,
composers,
right
kind
of
like
you
have
those
providers
service
providers
better
there,
people
who
write
terraform
or
that's
AWS
or
Circle,
Ci
or
networking
people
kind
of
you
have
simply
providers.
If
we
enter
into
defining
every
single
permutation,
what's
below
you
again,
we
are
going
into
Neverending
Story
right.
A
B
Not
even
it's
important
that
platform
is
is
creating
a
simple
single
interface
or
API
doesn't
even
have
to
be
API,
cli's
or
SSH
I'm
sshing
into
a
machine
and
doing
something
right
yeah.
It
shouldn't
be
like
that.
Let's
face
it,
but.
A
A
Yeah
yeah,
okay,
so
okay,
I.
What
I'm
still
kind
of
not
sure
on
is
how
to
define
this
bottom
layer
and
I
I.
Let's
keep
going
but
I
kind
of
think.
It's
important
I,
don't
know
my
own
experience.
I
guess:
I
I
was
at
a
place
where
they
didn't
provide
databases
as
well.
It
didn't
provide
the
message
cues
we
needed.
They
didn't
give
us
observability
out
of
the
box
so
and
I
really
felt
like,
but
they
said
they
had
a
platform
team.
D
D
The
problem
between
the
app
teams
and
the
platform
team
so
like
that
is
not
being
customer,
focused
like
it,
has
nothing
to
do
with
the
platform
to
service
providers.
In
my
opinion,
right
because
they
had
databases,
they
had
service
providers
and
they
had
a
person
figuring
out
a
way
to
vend
those
to
users.
But
they
were
not
investing
in
that
experience
like
feedback
from
the
experience
of
a
user
requesting
it,
and
then
the
vending
process.
C
Yeah,
but
that
brings
us
back
to
the
capabilities.
Then
like
I'm,
a
platform
team
I
deliver
this
platform.
This
is
the
list
of
capabilities.
I
offer
you
can
get
a
database,
you
can
get
a
message
queue,
that's
fair!
They
decide
that
this
is
what
what
the
boundary
that
we
Define
so
I'm
still
not
convinced
about
the
layered
approach,
but.
C
Composition
of
capabilities
that
is
shown
Below
in
the
diagram,
because
then
you
pick
and
choose
and
as
a
platform
team,
you
make
some
decisions
based
on
whatever
criteria
about
what
capabilities
you
offer
and
you
can
offer
them
all
yourself
or
based
on
another
platform
team
that
already
build
something
with
some
core
capabilities.
E
Yeah
I
was
going
to
say
pretty
much
the
same
thing
if
the
article
could
focus
on
one
that
up
Dev
platform
and
then
let
other
people
decide
how
they
want
to
break
it
down
or
implement
it.
That's.
B
The
thing
you
we
don't
know
we
cannot
know
the
needs
differ
from
one
organization
to
another
right
in
some
companies.
The
only
devs
are
perfectly
happy
to
do
everything
except
manage
the
databases,
and
then
your
platform
is
all
only
that
right
in
some
others.
They
don't
know
how
to
build
their
binaries
can
or
they
don't
want
to
build
the
binaries.
Then
that's,
that's
part
of
the
platform.
Right
capabilities
are
really
anything
they're
your
customers
kind
of,
like
you
figure
out
by
talking
with
them.
B
D
What
scale
company
and
like
to
your
point,
Victor
of
like
wanting
to
stay
away
from
something
as
specific
as
developer
platforms
like
I'm
worried?
If
we
go
too
generic,
we
lose
everybody
so
like
do
we
pick
a
target
audience
like
we
are
looking
at
director
levels
of
multinational
software
houses
like
or
whatever,
like
pick
a
like
customer
of
this
thing,
because
I
think
we're
we're
at
risk
of
of
losing
everybody.
If
we
try
and
appease
everybody.
B
I
would
rather
Define
it
as
put
examples
red,
then
kind
of
be
specific.
We
should
have
plenty
of
examples
right
that
I
agree,
but
for
all
I
know
the
platform
team.
Actually
all
that
did
is
was
true,
skeroko
and
say:
go
there,
you
go
it's
a
platform.
A
A
C
And
then
we
have
like
a
list
of
selected
capabilities
that
are
all
the
ones
that
you
find
in
an
internal
developer
platform.
So
that
could
be
a
concrete
example
yeah.
Then
we
can
point
out
that
you
can
actually
get
only
the
capabilities
you
need
and
build
on
top
of
that
further
capabilities,
and
we
can
make
it
different
examples.
Machine
learning
or
whatever
cards
might
be.
A
Relevant
the
ones
I
think
yeah,
okay,
so
I
I
mean
I,
can
I
think
I'll.
Work
on
this
I
need
to
kind
of
re
refactor
this
a
little
bit
to
account
for
that.
But
then
we'll
end
up
focusing
Define.
Why
don't
we
choose
at
least
two:
let's
go
with
developer
platform,
web
app
developer
platform,
business,
app
developer
and
and
ml
Ops.
Those
seem
a
couple,
I
guess,
practical
examples.
A
Okay,
let's
keep
going
there's
a
lot,
keep
going.
Let's
see
why
a
DOT
platform,
so
here
also
same
thing
and
we're
gonna
like
I'll,
have
to
rejigger
this,
because
we
don't
need
to
say
here's
the
two
layers
also
that
I
added
in
the
past
couple
days
like
a
cloud
computing
platform
is,
you
know,
basically
the
coherent
collection
of
capabilities
and
then
further
guides
developers.
So
this
needs
to
kind
of
be
turned
around.
This
is
not
an
end
goal.
A
E
A
A
A
Or
should
this
be
more
specific
and
is
this
yeah
I
guess
what
do
you
think
of
these
attributes
be
designed?
They
continuously
improve
based
on
requirements
of
its
users,
so
that
it
could
rephrase
that
maybe
a
little
differently,
but
that's
to
emphasize,
like
gather,
you
need
to
understand
what
the
users
want
out
of
the
platform.
Correct
is.
D
This,
where
we
should
be
using,
do
we
want
to
espouse
the
language
of
platform
as
a
product,
because
there'd
be
an
option
here
to
be
like,
be
be
treated
as
a
product
where
improvements
are
continuously
I
added
based
on
requirements
of
users.
Like
basically
do
you
want
the
word
product
in
there
I
like
the
I,
like
the
sentence,
I
think
as
an
option
for
the
word
product.
If
we
want
it.
A
E
A
Like
okay,
let's
see
what
else
publish
consistent
entry
points,
gui's,
apis
and
tools,
I
think
that's
pretty
generic
documentation
and
code
template.
So
this
I
guess
I
want
to
talk
about
this.
A
little
like
I'm
using
the
word
templates
to
for
all
these
like
golden
path,
kinds
of
things
which
are
I,
guess
copy
and
pasteable,
you
know
getting
started
things
is
that
I,
don't
know
I
kind
of
want
people's
opinions
on
that
is
that
am
I
oversimplifying.
C
A
B
You
know,
I
wouldn't
say
hide
operations
because
you
do
want
to
expose
if
it's,
if
it's
self-service,
you
want
to
expose
operations.
Otherwise,
I
think
that
four
and
five
are
conflicting.
The
question
is
only
kind
of
what
is
the.
What
is
the
level
of
complexity
that
you
want
to
expose
right?
What
do
people
care
about?
What
they
don't.
E
D
A
B
D
B
D
Like
yeah.
A
A
A
B
Engineers
I
mean
but
I
guess
the
point
is
I'm
just
trying
I'm
not
sure
whether
I
understand
what
you're
trying
to
say,
you're
saying
that
many
people
will
share
this
right.
It's
not
designed
for
only
me
right,
yeah
and.
A
B
D
Mean
you
can
write
a
platform
that
is
unique
to
each
individual
team,
but
the
point
is:
is
that
what
you
are?
Writing
should
be
usable
by
more
like
it's
yeah
shareable,
because
it's
like
I'm
not
sharing
my
database
with
another
team,
which
would
be
one
definition
of
the
word
share.
But
I
am
sharing
the
capability
of
creating
databases
with
another
team.
So
that's
like
I'm
enabled
yeah.
A
B
A
E
C
B
But
you
know,
sometimes
you
have
those
cases.
John
needs
this
kind
of
food
that
would
they
really
go
through
the
trouble
to
put
it
into
a
platform,
because
John
is
the
only
one
needing
it.
No
he's
my
user
right
yeah,
but
it's
it's
like
business
right
like
a
developing
a
product
as
a
business
right
kind
of
like
I'm
not
going
to
create
a
product
that
is
used
by
a
few
I'm
going
to
divide
the
the
bigger
the
number
of
users,
the
more
bigger
return
of
investment
that
that's,
where
I'm,
focusing
I,
don't
care
about.
B
A
A
B
I
mean
a
short
while
ago:
I
spoke
with
calcium.
Basically,
he
described
it
precisely
like
that
kind
of
okay.
So
we
have
different
people
needing
different
things.
The
moment
you
realize
that,
actually
there
are
more
people
that
need
this.
We
move
that
functionality
very
often
developed
by
them,
but
those
but
John
into
a
platform,
because
the
moment
more
people
need
it.
That's
when
we
put
it
there.
C
C
Should
it
be
0.1,
perhaps
like
even
before
The
Continuous
Improvement.
D
Potentially,
what
you're
saying
is
maybe
next
to
point
one.
So
it
could
be
point
two
as
well
like
just
basically
saying
like
all
right
so
either
as
basically
put
one
in
one
and
six
together
in
whatever
order,
make
the
most
sense
you're
suggesting
six,
then
one
and
then
move
down.
Basically,
no
yeah.
A
Like
that
yeah
I,
like
putting
one
first,
because
it's
like
what
we
consider
to
be
our
top
I
mean
we
might
need
to.
D
A
Don't
know
if
they
help
or
hurt,
but
next
number
one:
okay,
let's
keep
going
because
it's
getting
late
already
support
both
research
and
development
and
production.
This
was
interesting
because
I
got
this
feedback
Abby
you
and
a
couple.
Other
people
like.
A
Brought
this
up-
and
maybe
this
is
passing
into
what
we're
like
the
developer
platform
layer
like
the
actual
platform
like
this
is
different
in
for
each
one
like
if
you're,
building
apps
an
app
platform,
then
you
should,
you
know,
support
both
r
d
test
production,
which
are
all
going
to
be
a
little
different.
B
If
everybody,
if
many
choose
to
have
domino
pizza
for
lunch
every
day,
I
would
put
that
in
a
platform
as
well.
A
Yeah
so
then
this
just
becomes
really
just
a
an
aspect
of
you
know
catering
to
the
needs
of
your
users,
so
that
it.
A
Doesn't
even
apply
uniformly
because,
like
let's
say,
you're
deploying
a
third-party
app,
maybe
there
isn't
an
r
d
involved,
it's
just
deployed
to
you,
know
test
and
production
or
something
okay
and
then
the
last
one
be
able
to
be
bypassed.
I
think
we
all
I
got.
It
seemed
from
the
comments
that
that
people
won't
agreed
with
that.
C
A
Okay,
okay,
so
then
this
next
stuff
we
don't
have
to
go
through,
is
basically
just
Pros.
You
know
you
can
look
it
over
on
your
own
book
Pros
over
the
previous,
a
let's
see
I'm
trying
to
decide
how
we
make
the
best
use
of
the
next
five
six
minutes
here.
A
So
we
have
attributes
of
platform
teams.
Let's
and
then
we
have
capabilities
yeah.
Let's
talk
about
the
attributes
of
platform
teams,
so
really
the
world.
So
these
first
of
all,
these
generic
like
are
these
applying
to
developer
platforms
and
ml
apps
platforms
or
cops
platforms,
and
are
these
the
right
ones?
So
the
the
team
and
this
I
guess
would
be
that
middle
team
in
the
ASCII
art
that
we
did
before
the
team.
That's
aggregating
up
the
capabilities
from
the
grab
bag,
like
their
jobs,
are
to
understand
their
users.
A
Maybe
you
know,
transfer
knowledge,
I,
guess
or
or
make
sure
to
share
that
back
with
the
providers
that
that's
all
kind
of
in
here.
Maybe
that
could
be
added
like
research
platform,
user
requirements,
influence
providers.
A
This
would
be
manage
and
develop
interfaces
so
that
that's
kind
of
the
experience
I
guess
it
could
be
said,
manage
adult
experience
for
use
of
capabilities
and
services,
which
is
that's,
that's
really.
Their
main
job
I
think,
is
what
we're
saying.
B
Yes,
I'm
not
sure
about
the
number.
Three,
though,.
B
E
Okay
and
one
item
that
I
often
hear
is
given
the
platform
is
optional,
developers
are
not
mandated
to
use
it,
so
somebody
has
to
sell
them
the
platform.
E
B
A
We
can
work
on
that
market,
evangelize,
Advocate
yeah,
one
thing
on
this
yeah
I
mean
definitely,
if
there's
other
suggestions,
let's
talk
about
it,
but
one
thing:
Abby
I
think
you
brought
this
up
along
the
way
like
this
is
mostly
to
help
platform.
Engineers
platforms
understand
their
role
and
what
they
might
be
expected
to
provide
to
an
app
team.
But
but
should
we
be
discussing
stuff
for
the
platform
engineer
themselves?
D
D
There's
no
like
supported,
build
option
yeah,
but
yeah
we're
seeing
everybody.
Do
it
themselves.
D
A
D
It's,
how
do
you
deliver
it
to
all
of
your
infrastructure,
so
we
talked
about
already
like
Cloud
native-
it's
not
always
Cloud
native
only
sometimes
it
also
is
on-prem
stuff,
and
sometimes
it's
a
mix
of
kubernetes
cloud
and
non-kubernetes
cloud.
And
how
do
you
manage
all
those
and
yeah
I
think
all
of
that
is
what
is
the
support
system
for
the
platform
Engineers
like
yeah.
D
Think
somebody
linked
Mauricio's
articles
like
his
keynote,
was
a
lot
on
that
stuff
as
well.
Right,
like
I,
think
that
there's
there's
there
is
work
to
be
done
in
that
space,
I
think
across
the
industry.
So.
A
A
A
E
A
A
Oh,
it's
just
sponsored
by
app
delivery.
This
is
just
the
platforms
VG
is
on,
but.
A
That
meeting
is
more
all
up,
so,
like
people
will
present
on
projects,
you
know
we'll
we'll
there's
several
ouija's
like
the
get
Ops
Ouija
is
part
of
Tag
app
delivery
and
the
chaos
Ouija,
so
that
you
know
that's
more.
An
all-up
kind
of
thing
I
mean
you're,
welcome
to
attend
there
too,
if
you
want,
but
this
meeting
that
I
called
together
with
us
today
is
just
a
one-off,
but
I
would
I'm
using
the
platform
Luigi
mostly
for
this
paper
right
now
and
then
we'll
go
from
there.
So.
A
B
No
I'm
kidding
yeah
but
I
mean
just
I,
suggest
just
send
an
invite
and
then
we
can
reject
it
and
adjust
and
whatever
okay.
A
Okay,
let's
sensitively
plan
to
to
sync
on
it'll,
probably
be
Tuesday
and
I'll
ping
in
the
in
the
channel.
Now
and
let's,
let's
keep
iterating
here,
get
that
stuff
integrated
and
are
we
ready
to
go
to
GitHub
I
kind
of
feel
like
I
want
to
wait
till
Tuesday?
We
can
discuss.
D
D
One
is
around
why
you
need
a
platform,
what
you
should
expect
from
a
platform,
what
the
user
interface
is,
what
a
platform
team
does
and
then
it's
like.
Okay,
you
are
on
the
platform
team
now
or
you've
decided
to
create
a
platform
team.
Now
what
do
those
people
do
and
need
to
do
and,
like
all
the
stuff,
under
capabilities
of
a
cloud
platform
Splats
over
to
the
like
thing,
uh-huh.