Cloud Native Computing Foundation TAG App Delivery / Cooperative Delivery WG, 24 Aug 2023

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From YouTube: 2023-08-24 WG Platforms - Maturity Model Project

Description

TAG web site: https://tag-app-delivery.cncf.io/
TAG Slack channel: https://cloud-native.slack.com/archives/CL3SL0CP5
TAG git repo: https://github.com/cncf/tag-app-delivery
TAG meeting notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OykvqvhSG4AxEdmDMXilrupsX2n1qCSJUWwTc3I7AOs/edit

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C

Doing doing good, how about yourself are we in the right meeting.

B

Are in right, meeting yeah in stuff? um Okay: let's do it I'm ready. um So this is a continuation of the last meeting. I'll show my screen.

C

Yeah and I've I've had to miss uh meetings since the last work, so um due to work uh thing so I'm mostly be catching up at this point.

B

All good that is a okay I will send you the link that we're focusing.

B

On and I will give background information, uh Josh, I, don't know or John. That's it John I, don't know you very well. uh What what do you do for Liv.

C

Gotcha so I'm a senior application uh engineer at chwar um and so I I did some work uh with this. On the uh initial um uh reviewing the initial model.

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C

um And so I have not gotten into any of the Deep dive meetings yet, but uh yeah we criware is a consultancy. um We are partnered up.

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C

uh Kru uh so go to chum. yep like that.

B

C

There you go, um and so we are partnered up with uh Susa um and some other um companies uh SEO um doing lots of Rancher stuff platform. Dev.

B

So you know okay, so it sounds like this is right on your Island.

C

B

Okay good deal, um that being said, yeah so for context, um so I'm kind of in charge of the investment section we basically split out in a bunch of different sections right or a few different sections, I think the bigger papers here here so I'm just trying to kind of organize each of these, so each of them have their own like leads, and people that are kind of doing stuff, um I've chosen intentionally not to look at theirs yet we're until the meeting next week, so I can kind of like work a bit more independent or have ours, like kind of be like a original idea instead of just kind of copying.

B

Oh that looks good. Let's just.

C

Back that here got.

B

um We probably that's that's how it'll most likely go is someone will have a Superior strategy um and well to make the flow of the paper. So it doesn't look like we're. Writing like five different papers, we'll need to conform.

C

B

But yeah similar to what we.

C

Did with the uh the model overall.

B

Yeah, exactly y, so just having some conversation about what's good, what's bad, what's ugly, what's beautiful stuff like that, so yeah, so with the model overall OB, this is the investment section, so kind of the way that took it was um so started with yeah. We did a few things, but what do I want to I'm trying to what to focus on for this one, um maybe to finish out the background.

B

um I kind of just had like a rough draft based off of the levels that were listed here, um so these four and then just kind of broke them down.

B

I used some of like the old paper stuff to kind of like fit some things in and then refined, based off of the changes that we had made and um so kind of what I end up doing was having like bullets for like a description of this, like you know what this is um and with the goal of like being able to turn this into paragraphs that it doesn't just stay like bullets, but turnning a paragraph see how that looks and probably keeping the bullets around with the paragraphs going into the meeting next week.

B

So same thing with the rest of them kind of got bullets for each that describe what we're attempting to to say through this word um so yeah. That's a lot of what this meeting was supposed to be about is um putting like refining a yeah, make sure we refine the defin the descriptions actually so sorry um all over the place. So the definitions I'm, remembering myself what we did so.

A

The definitions.

B

I haven't um I also. They also need a little bit more refinement, so kind of the way I was looking at it was like. Okay, we've got this word. We need to Def find the word succinctly and then there's descriptions for that definition of what. What are we trying to say through this um and so ones, without definition, I struggled to like succinctly like find, which is basically all of them, except for the first one, um but now that we've described the descriptions that was kind of what we spent last time doing.

B

I was like oh okay: I'll go back and fill out the definitions which I just haven't, got an opportunity to do, and then uh we'd spend this kind of talking through what kind of paragraphs would generally look like and then I can try to give it a swing. um All that make sense any questions on that.

C

Yep, it does I'm kind of scanning through them right now, uh I'm liking. What you have so far makes sense. um So yeah.

B

Yep, um okay, so yeah I feel good about this first one. um What we were trying to kind of having a little bit of debate over was this. So the reason that I I didn't like voluntary or temporary, specifically because the list it's it gives nouns right. So we've got a bunch of nouns, so one of them is technical, C Center, then product budget then profit Center, but then we're saying voluntary, temporary those are adjectives. So why? Why are we using adjectives? We got, we got to stick with one or the other.

B

Is it trying to make an anoun describing this role so I use tactical instrument uh in the working group. Meeting people didn't love that either, but they agreed with that it needed to change um tactical instrument. Just sounds kind of strange like what? What is that? How do I.

C

Tal instrument right yeah,.

B

So that's just a question mark I think the general idea is right. I think if, if you've got a better word for this uh and that just kind of comes to mind, feel free to to say it for now it's tactical instrument.

C

I I, like the uh means to an end, that's good wording, I think just putting out fires yeah.

B

Putting up fires, you just there's just a short-term goal that you're just trying to meet, so you can, whatever you know um so. Yeah I think that's just very like easy and logical to understand. So it starts to get a little more complicated when you get to technical cost center um yeah. The general idea that we're trying to get across is that there's, there's intentionality with this one right. There's a budget, that's um uh separated out for the platform, so it's being like in some way prioritized at a organiz ational level.

B

However, the way that it's viewed is like. Oh, this is just another thing: that's like an expense that is just going to like take money away from us right so that we can again meet this means um not as much seen as like uh um man. This is something that could bring great results that can help amplify our company or amplify our organization, um and so yeah I think. Another description we put where employees are intentionally spend time, building the platform, but the time to be used as minimally as possible.

B

It's kind of like a if you get around to it like for sure finish. These task, but as soon as you can get away, get away so that we can do the real work, you know right um likely thinking about the quickest way to solve the problem, instead of the most impactful way to reach a longer term solution. Yeah um high cost lead to unfounded head counts, yeah I'm, reading this for myself too, just for we up um deep understanding of value which makes this unsustainable over time. Yeah that makes sense.

B

um Effort is no longer strictly tactical, but strategy isn't still isn't thought all the way through yeah well said: um okay, so I need a succinct word for the or not word uh phrase for this, maybe like um technical cost center is.

B

B

C

um Maybe um let's.

A

C

I'm thinking more of like it's kind of at this step that there is so we're we're going into just investment right, but it's at this.

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Where, like there is something that is actually sustained, um it's not just a oneoff like put out this fire. um It is at this point uh has gotten to the point where it's sustained um and can actually go from Project to project um potentially and so I'm. Just throwing out ideas.

B

C

Maybe there is budget now, because there is this thing that is apparent, uh that is going from Project to project, so part of the budget budget is funneled towards maintenance. Of that at this point, does that make sense.

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C

B

Sense platform is a sustained expense, um is an allocated yeah. Let's try. That is an allocated sustained expense at a.

C

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Organizational but still view as.

B

B

View as since we kind of already got that being used, the platform is an allocated sustained expense um at a at an organizational level. At a.

B

uh Yeah, this is what do you think about that this good enough? For now, at least we don't have to- we can always improve it. It's just something to kind of put some words to it.

C

uh Victor actually put something in chat.

A

Oh, that was combination of a Google, Search and trb.

B

ah Lol, let's try it: let's see what we got here: practical implementation and allocation of resources, both Financial or non-financial, um to support and sustain technical Endeavors within a designated unit. Yeah I feel it's too broad right. We have to hit this like level I'm with you. It is a practical implementation. Allocation of resources, I, like that platform, is.

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B

Resources- and this is already discussed above that both financial and non-financial, to support and sustain technical Endeavors.

B

B

um Used to support I, like that kind of phrase, technical Endeavors.

B

um But it seen is.

B

A as an expense to.

B

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Organization then, let's keep it. I'll keep.

A

It okay, the the the platform, is or should be, the in investment level is.

B

The platform is seen as a means to an end at this. At this.

A

Stage right, after definition, the platform is a practical implementation. uh Is this about the platform or is about the inv.

B

Oh good question the platform good question: the platform is a practical implementation allocation, yeah, good question.

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Is a practical implementation.

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Investment level level, because this is the level of that.

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This investment level is that, like this.

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A

That doesn't matter.

B

um Not really sure is the level itself, a practical implementation, allocation of resources.

A

I don't know I'm, not likeing.

B

The sentence anymore, because so the first one we just kind of have a simple, strictly tactical approach to investing in the platform. It's a means to an end, I think, because this isn't this isn't perfect right. This is just like a general idea.

C

um Now that we're kind of about a pause in in thought here, um I would I kind of went back and was thinking about tactical instrument and was thinking maybe as needed instrument or like using that wording as needed might be uh better than tactical and more defined. Instead,.

B

C

Like what is what is tactical right.

B

um Agreed as needed instrument as needed, yeah um is there another. Is there like a one.

C

Word synm for as needed, yeah.

B

That's exactly.

C

B

C

Forada going Latin I guess.

B

Ad hoc, maybe ad hoc.

C

B

Yeah so maybe ad hoc inv, ad hoc investment.

C

But that's but that's measurement, so it I mean that's, not exclus mutually exclusive. To.

B

It's not but yeah.

C

B

Back to the original issue, it's it's a descriptor. Instead of like a noun again.

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B

Adog, maybe an ad hoc tool of instrument, ad hoc.

B

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um C is also a sen to ad hoc look like.

B

A

Casual c, a s! U a l.

B

Casual casual I feel like it's too broad. You can use casual in a lot of like ways like I dressed casual. We just kind of hanging casually and Casual, always conate bad yeah.

C

Also I want to throw out the word uh required so like uh required only Investments, maybe um because that's kind of like getting like I, don't like that necessarily either, but in that I do like that direction. Because it's you know basically at this point it's only what's required to get the job done right. That's all that we're.

B

Investing I'm a more open to that requir.

B

Tool, a tool that's used out of sheer.

C

A

Yeah I'm actually liking.

C

That more, that I think about.

B

C

Required maybe required tooling.

B

Tooling, there go.

B

Yeah, you have switch to.

A

Suggesting eventually uh AI will either people will or agree with AI or AI will agree with people. One English will be affected by.

C

Ai and then I I do actually like the word tactical there um in the definition like strictly it's strictly tactical. Only what we need got it me as mean in yeah I, I dict, that.

B

C

um Maybe I I do like the word sustained there. If we.

B

Can let's, let's go back yeah.

B

Let's I just I need to change modes again. There we go.

C

So maybe emergence of sustained platform.

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C

B

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Budget and Associated budget for platform.

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Maintenance form creation and maintenance, really the Crea.

C

B

Yeah maintenance.

B

um However, isn't um Incorporated within the company's long-term priorities? Yeah strategic goals? There you go.

C

Yeah, that's good enough! I like it I like it that.

B

um Good teamwork: let's go okay product budget, okay, so this one, the word that was used quite a bit was product mindset, so um seeing the platform is something that needs to be like sold and marketed out to others in an intentional way. um The platform uh begins to be recognized by the organization as a product in itself um that the value of the platform can be measured. What you about say.

C

The the way I'm seeing this is kind of like this is the switch between uh we're selling product and we're selling platform right, or it's like that, cusp Point, um and so the money is going to logically follow, uh and so how do we put that into work?.

B

um Okay, the investment into the platform is.

B

Approached product mindset, um okay, I.

C

B

It mindset allocating time and resources time. Actually that's already implied um mindset with the investment um allocating.

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B

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Custom, maybe with a customer.

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Driven approach because product mindset is for customer right so.

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A

Resource is a customer driven.

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Approach I like that with the customer I'm already using approach here, we have to a customer I like the idea, though, with a customer driven. um We need a.

B

Synony find they should have a synony bar.

B

B

Okay, Al Resources.

B

C

Both uh two platform team to a platform.

B

Team, sorry, where.

C

uh Allocating resources, um maybe like we.

B

Throw in there.

C

uh Like that, there is actually like um employee resources being.

B

A

B

Right or so that's a good question is this: where a team comes in or is a team already in with the technical CA Center in my head, I think you can already have a team at level two.

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B

Stakeholders, what do you guys think about that? The investment into the platform's approach with the product mindset, allocating Resources, with both the platform, stakeholders and and the overall organizational strategic picture in in.

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C

Maybe um have something in there about kpis, because we do have the that it can be measured at this point right, yeah.

B

Feb back Loop, maybe something about feedback loops feedback loops will drive decisions about future, about um Su, sustained investment or uh about.

B

B

Concerning this implies that there's some type of um feedback or measurement that's happening, that's giving us an idea of how well things are progressing or not progressing among.

C

Maybe, instead of instead of feedback loops have something like established kpis to kind of integrate that that into the.

B

C

Okay, that is so.

B

B

Good enough for me for now and then last definition, profit Center. This was the hardest one for me to get it I. Last meeting I had like literally just a question mark here. I was like what is the difference between this and then a profit Center, but yeah we came to different companies, treat various activities as cost centers or profit centers. It's kind of like where the idea I guess kind of came from for some of these, so either you're spending money on it or it's making you money kind of like assets and liability.

B

So you're, just it's just an expense, or this is something that's really genuinely um helping. So really should be liabilities versus.

B

Assets asset um example: QA teams are a cost center to some companies. I, don't think I finished this thought. Q teams are a c Center to some companies, um while I guess have profit Center to others, depending on the.

B

Perspective profit Center should be ah I, see not just depending on I guess how the on how the metrics are collected to um to support the.

B

uh Up um so kind of making she was making this point that, like with especially with a lot of these kpis that you're building up at this point right, you should not only be able to measure like the success or failure of the platform, but you should be able to put it into like monetary value that profit centers are generating positive income on the company's value sheet like we should be able to kind of like we would, with other products, be able to show.

B

This is the value that it's generating um yeah and that that value is increasing, not decreasing right.

C

B

um I I put that in words.

B

um I kind of actually liked this last thing we said the team uses data driven approach right. This was taken from an earlier definition, I, really like this. Actually the platform. Let me put this here: maybe we can revise.

A

This, oh, the the level three and four is kind of overlapping in a way.

B

They are that's.

A

Intentional um kind of product manite strategic.

B

Driven yeah I think it's kind of the it it does you're absolutely right. They do kind of overlap right, you're, establishing the kpis in this one, but I think in this one. This is where I think we can refine. This is I, don't think you're just establishing the kpis, but the kpis are driving forward like optimized results like I think this is not just like.

B

We have the information about how we're doing, but rather we're not just we don't just have the information we're seeing success in the results of like you know what our unit of measurement is, which for most organizations is money.

A

So so yeah other words level three is about the mindset level. Four is actual implementation, yeah I would say.

B

So that's how this is where I think we can have more dialogue, but I think when I think about optimized and scaled I, think you can't scale without having the right like mindset around scaling and having the proper infrastructure around the scaling, um but I think optimizes. You actually see like improved performance like opt optimized.

B

Performance I'm sure that can be debated but yeah I'd, say good enough for me. So I think the platform team uses a data driven approach to analyze and drive efforts across the organization to increase company profit so that it's very important to increase company profit, either by adding features scaming Technologies working with teams to maximize their efficiency. What do you guys think that's fine with me um but I'm open to us revising it more.

C

So one thing that I'm sorry to like go on a tangent again but I'm.

B

C

Back to the technical cost center um I agree with what you said about, like uh you put, a comment, might be good to Define what technical cost center means so that.

B

C

To me also is I I. Think I would agree with you that it's it's doesn't have a whole lot of uh it's uh more generic.

B

C

B

C

What that means, just from the word themselves agreed.

A

And and we use the.

C

Same thing with the the center down with the prophit center so like, what do we mean.

B

C

B

Yeah I think that's where this kind of comes in right, I, think the concept that's labeled here- and this may be something that might be good to even put into the like summary beforehand- is kind of like talking around the concepts of like like the kind of the C Center idea, um and why we incorporate it into like this sort of like unit of measurement.

B

um Yeah because I agree like just have face value I'm like what what does all that mean without having like if she hadn't explained it to me, the way that she did I would like. Oh, okay, I'm, not really understanding, but now I understand like okay, like gotcha, there's a cost center, it's just a something that is just like an it's a expense. That's on your book. It's a me means to an end. That's all! That's all that it is, is um I need to pay.

B

Someone like for like an organization right like I, need to pay someone. That's greeting people at the door and man I hate that I have to pay this person. That's gree people at the door, but I there's some like for some reason. That may be like a necessary expense. There's maybe old people that walking into this business that you know I, don't know whatever.

A

But it's just seen as an.

B

Expense, instead of like a profit, Center being like man like this guy at the door, like I've I've done the anal.

C

I'm coming back here because he's here like yeah.

B

Exactly he's here and man, this is really driving like progress for the company strategic goals, right whatever okay, gotcha.

C

B

Yeah but it'd be great if we could find a way to like I think potentially- and that's maybe a suggestion I'll put here.

C

Also I was looking at the uh emergence of sustained platform and comes with an Associated budget. I think we can make that more succinct by just saying emergence of sustained platform budget.

A

Just cutting out some.

C

uh The definition for level two because yeah I was looking at it and it seems a little bit um redundant um for us to say, like sustained.

B

Platform and comes with.

C

An Associated budget just say like emergence of sustained platform budget.

B

Just suain platform budget I got.

C

You yeah good point.

B

And then we can.

C

Yeah and then we can cut out um this yeah basically just say four, this the same platform budget for creation, maintenance, maybe I, don't know I.

B

Don't um emergence of sustain platform budget.

C

Or do we just say that just emergence of sustain platform, budget.

B

B

It's what do you think about.

C

That yep sounds.

B

Good I, like that I think it's nice I, think it's all nice um I think this is at least something to kind of work off.

A

B

So now the hard part is getting paragraphs. um This is going to take time um time, for this may not be now um yeah.

A

B

Do yeah, probably I'll, probably work on this like steadily over the next couple days, leading up to the thing on what is that Tuesday yeah Tuesday's, the next dialogue, um yeah and just kind of like kind of put some of this stuff into like more soin? Like words that are you know, paragraphs um yeah and if you guys are, if you guys are wanting to help with this- and you guys have time feel free to just like hop in and write stuff, if not I totally get it.

B

Things are busy, um but hopefully we can kind of make a little more progress forward before the meeting yeah I, don't think it's makes much sense to necessarily write here. I, don't do the best writing in front of people.

C

Anyway, but this was I, think.

B

This was really helpful. Exactly yeah I think it's just good to at least focus on like having more succinct definitions for all these words. um I think that'll help for us to write more words that are Focus instead of just like a bunch of stuff, so, okay, cool yeah, that's was.

C

B

Progress awesome, awesome, cool. Well, thank you guys for joining um I know that wasn't super long, but I don't think it needed to be super long. I think it was just hopefully get more perspectives and even just talk it out a little bit more I think it's helpful because I'm still trying to get the idea in my head, so yeah I just appreciate you guys.

C

Yep thanks till next time, Co catch. You.