►
From YouTube: WG Platforms Project Meeting - 2023-01-10
C
D
F
Can
you
hear
me?
Yes,
okay,
good,
all
right,
all
right,
good
to
see
everybody
happy
New,
Year
wow,
there's
a
good
crowd!
Thank
you
for
coming
yeah,
it's
kind
of
one.
We
usually
give
a
couple
like
we
might
as
well
just
dive
in
I.
Guess
we
got
a
bunch
of
new
people
today,
I
guess!
Let
me
let
me
drop
the.
F
Let
me
drop
the
the
notes
in
the
chat.
You
can
put
your
name
in
there.
If
you
have
specific
items
you
want
to
add
to
the
agenda,
you
can
put
them
in
there.
You
know
either
today
or
for
next
time.
Why
don't?
Why?
Don't
we
have
a
couple
people
that
are
new,
just
kind
of
say,
hi
saim!
You
want
to
go
first,
I
pronouncing
your
name
right.
D
D
All
those
kind
of
things
is
going
to
be
stay
here
for
a
longer
run,
so
we'll
try
to
be
in
that
place
as
well,
so
I'm
I'm
the
maintainer
of
of
that
project
as
well
I'm
joined
by
my
team
member
abhinav
Mishra
on
the
call
today
as
well.
So
this
is
my
primarily
job
as
in
managing
and
outreaching,
the
parallel
open
source
project
and
a
part
of
that
I'm
also
running
the
podcast
on
my
YouTube
channel.
That's
called
Cloud
native
podcast.
D
So
basically
the
aim
was
to
connect
with
the
different
people
different
mind
over
the
world
and
to
and
to
see
what
people
are
building
what
open
source
tools
they
have.
So
I've
done,
24
four
live
streams,
2022
and
looking
forward
to
more
and
now
I
have
so
many
guest
here.
So
I'm
looking
forward
to
have
talk
with
you
in
the
future
as
well.
E
Yeah
great
thanks
so
much
Asha,
my
name
is
abhinav
I'm,
a
senior
product
manager
here
at
Rafe,
Rafe
we're
basically
building
a
kubernetes
operations
platform
for
platform
teams
right
and
so
a
lot
of
these
things
that
come
into
play.
You
know
backstage
idps,
something
that
excited
to,
of
course
learn
from
you
about
and
contribute
base.
You
know
stuff
that
we've
learned
from
you
know
many
Enterprises,
as
they're
looking
to
scale
build
out
their
own
idps.
I
would
love
to
share.
You
know
that
information
as
well
and
and
really
kind
of
help
grow.
E
F
G
Say:
hello,
hi,
hello,
everyone.
My
name
is
Johannes
I'm,
a
platform
engineer
in
Austria
and
we
just
created
the
small
startup,
where
we
want
to
help
other
companies
adopting
kubernetes
or
platforms
based
on
kubernetes
and
I.
Just
came
across
your
slack
Channel
and
and
your
working
group,
and
it
was
just
curious
what
you're
talking
about
or
working
on,
probably
I'm,
just
in
in
listening
mode
in
the
first
couple
of
of
sessions,
but
yeah
I'm
curious
how
I
can
help
or
learn
from
all
of
you.
So
welcome.
F
Yeah,
thank
you.
That's
great.
Actually,
one
of
the
agenda
items
that
I
put
on
here
today
is
to
talk
about
what
else
you
know
what
we're
doing,
what
we're
working
on
and
possibilities
for
people
to
help
out.
So
that's
great
and
high
Taurus
nice
to
meet
you
in
video
I
know
you're
chatting
this
past
week.
H
Hey
Josh
yeah
nice
to
meet
you
as
well,
so
I
I
posted
in
chat,
I'm,
I'm,
CEO
of
small
consulting
company
called
front
side.
We
are
a
backstage
Professional,
Services
partner,
we've
been
working
with
backstage
for
over
two
and
a
half
years.
We
have.
We
would
provide
backstage
Enterprise
support,
so
we
see
a
lot
of
like
how
backstage
is
being
used
on
idps
instead
of
companies
and
what
companies
are
trying
to
accomplish
with
it.
So
what
I,
I'm?
H
What
I'd
like
to
do
is
I'm
particularly
interested
in
how
we
can
make
it
easier
for
platform
teams
to
adopt
backstage
and
align
backstage
with
the
platform
and
how
it
can
accelerate
github's
adapt
adoption.
So
I'd
like
to
learn
more
about
and
contribute
to
that
conversation
and
then
bring
everything
that
I
learned
I'm
going
to
share
with
the
backstage
community
and
the
platform
engineering
community.
F
F
F
F
F
We
chatted
a
lot
about
the
different
sections.
There
I
think
we
have
six
or
seven
now
challenges
and
metrics,
where
a
couple
that
books
asked
us
to
add
the
past
few
weeks
and
I
think
the
challenges
section
is
decent.
Although
there's
more
research
that
could
be
done,
the
metrics
definitely
yeah
could
use
a
little
more
work.
F
E
F
Yeah,
that's
definitely
awesome
and-
and
folks
have
been
doing
that
for
the
past
couple
months
and
there's
there's
a
lot
in
the
in
the
dark
and
yeah
for
sure.
You
know
keep
commenting
there.
You
know
at
least
we
all
read
it
or
people
that
are
on
the
doc.
Read
it
I'm
kind
of
wondering
The,
Next,
Step,.
C
A
A
F
You
know
it's
kind
of
hard
to
get
me
back
on
10pr.
So
that's
why
I'm
kind
of
bringing
it
up
here.
Is
that
a
good
approach?
You
know
one
thing
that
somebody
was
asking
me
this
morning:
how
to
do
it?
I
was
like
well.
Maybe
we
just
put
the
whole
thing
into
a
work
in
progress
branch
and
then
a
sign
from
that
Branch.
F
E
D
F
J
I
I,
so
I
follow
the
similar
process
with
operator
white
people
some
one
one
year
ago
and
I
think
it
will
be
almost
the
same,
but
this
white
paper.
So
there
will
be
kind
of
a
public
issue
from
the
cncf,
which
is
your
ad
paper,
and
when
we
published
this
white
paper
there
was
also
a
blog
post
from
the
CDC
about
this
to
to
promote
this
a
bit.
J
F
Even
the
way
we
publish
I
think
like
I,
noticed
cartographs,
which
is
the
cloud
native
maturity
model.
It
seems
like
their
main
publishing
is,
is
a
doc
in
GitHub,
so
I
don't
know.
If
we,
if
we
think
that's
a
that's
a
reasonable
way,
we
could
I
mean
we'll,
publish
the
blog
post,
obviously
and
call
attention
to
it
and
things
like
that
or
we
can
publish
a
PDF.
That's
that
I
think
Thomas
and
Abby.
You
had
mentioned
PDF
at
something
like
that:
I,
okay,.
J
I
I
I
If
we
picked
a
Josh
I,
don't
know
if
you
feel
comfortable,
saying
trying
to
publish
by
kubecon
Europe,
then
I
think
maybe
one
conversation
to
have
is
an
email
out
to
I
think
it
was
I
put
I
shared
it
in
the
slack
I
think
it's
press
at
or
something
PR
cncf.io
and
basically
ask
them
the
question
of,
like
you
know:
here's
our
Draft
when
you
need
us
to
stamp
this
with
approval
to
be
able
to
have
this
published
before
kubecon,
and
then
that
will
give
us
our
deadline.
Basically.
F
D
I
To
your
other
question,
Josh
I
think
my
personal
opinion.
I
think
this
is
what
Thomas
shared
with
me
was
that
having
them
all
separated
makes
it
hard
to
understand
the
whole
picture.
So
I
think
your
idea
of
a
whip
branch
makes
a
lot
of
sense
for
people
to
be
able
to
make
sure
that
they're,
like
contextualizing
the
sections,
because
you
could
totally
imagine
someone
reads
a
section
and
goes,
but
we
haven't
defined
these
words
yet
and
it's
like
yes
well,
actually,
in
the
document
we
do
and
so
yeah
I
quite
like
that
proposal.
So.
J
F
J
F
Oh
you
just
generally
yeah
yeah
I
took
a
stab
at
using
this
tool.
Called
bike
shed,
which
is
his
name
alone,
gives
away
that.
You
know
we
could
talk
about
it
forever,
which
is
w3c's
tool
for
aggregating
up
documents
and
Publishing.
It
I
was
just
trying
to
find
something
that
would
help
hey.
You
know,
I,
don't
know
we
don't
think
too
much
about
it,
but.
K
K
I
just
think
like
it
would
be.
It
would
be
very
good
if
we
could
find
some
sort
of
way
that
that
kind
of
makes
sense
to
at
least
like
these
types
of
scenarios,
because,
yes,
like
open
gate
officers,
can
be
patterns
that
are
going
to
be
blueprints,
green
prints,
white
prints,
whatever
color
prints
and
so
on
and
so
forth.
So
there's
gonna
be
a
lot
of
things
that
haven't
changed
here,
which,
if
we
can
automate
then
and
package
that
in
a
proper
way
once
and
for
all,
it
would
be
really
great.
F
K
F
Okay,
okay,
so
yeah
so
do
we
meet
so
is
two
is
the
next
we
have
we.
This
all-up
meeting
is
Monday
is
first
and
third
should
we
meet
next
I
guess
next
week
if
people
want
to
meet
at
this
time,
okay,
and
what
I
want
to
ask,
is
it
kind
of
related
to
that
is
how
so
I'll
put
this
work
in
progress.
Branch
I'll
get
this
going.
I'll
work
on
this,
probably
by
the
end
of
today.
I
should
be
able
to
get
that
up
there.
F
F
L
F
I
I
What's
in
the
dock,
I
feel
like
we've,
had
good
conversations
and
I'm
sort
of
not
sure
like
where,
where
the
line
goes
from,
there's
been
feedback
into,
there's
needs
to
be
approval
and
it
felt
like
I
was
getting
to
the
point
where
diminishing
returns
on
feedback
from
me,
because
I'd
already
been
involved
so
much
yeah.
So
when
you're
talking
about
assigning
people
like,
are
there
either
Sig
or
working
group
people
that
are
actually
kind
of
the
approvers?
Or
is
this
a
level
below
that
before
we
go
to
the
approvers
or
yeah?
F
I
think
that
from
the
Sig
or
tag
or
Ouija,
it's
more
a
process,
level
approval
less
content.
You
know
the
folks
like
Eloise
and
Jen
and
Hong
Chow
aren't
so
much
here.
I
mean
you,
you
I,
don't
know
if
we
can
easily
get
folks
like
commit
access,
but
I
was
thinking
like
if
it's
our
group,
you
know
it's
people
that
kind
of
volunteer.
It's
like
you
know,
open
source
and,
to
some
degree,
we'll
all
keep
an
eye
on
each
other,
and
hopefully
you
know,
arrive
at
consensus
in
the
GitHub
issues
and
stuff.
L
A
L
A
L
Would
probably
say
at
least
you
can
limit
it
to
a
branch,
so
we
could
protect
the
draft
branch
and
maybe
like
the
master
branch
and
code
owners
can
control
like.
Maybe
you
require
a
review
on
a
PR
from
a
code
owner
in
order
for
that
to
be
mergeable
into
the
draft
branch,
and
then
you
just
make
it
so
we
could
just
make
it.
The
workflow
whoever's
got
final
approval
or
we're
publishing
a
version
or
something
that
can
get
merged
into
main
or
can
do
a
release
or
something
there.
L
A
F
J
J
Unless
we
undertake
repository
there,
we
have
some
kind
of
a
rule
so
right
access
that
I
think
only
have
to
take
leads
themselves,
and
in
this
case
the
working
group
leads
so
Josh
and
Robert
in
this
case,
and
they
can
also
be
called
Almost
for
that
who
approve
the
content
which
comes
to
the
repository
and
I.
Think
that's
okay.
In
this
case,
this
worked
also
pretty
well
in
the
in
the
operator
white
people.
F
A
K
F
I'm
wondering
if
you're
kind
of
asking
us
too,
like
one
of
the
reasons
why,
like
I
guess,
I,
am
trying
to
drag
this
a
little
out
like
we
started
this
work
kind
of
after
kubecon
us
and
originally
I
the
light
of
fire,
I
kind
of
said.
Let's
get
it
published
by
the
end
of
the
year
now
I'm
kind
of
dragging
into
January,
but
I
kind
of
see
all
of
us
in
this
group
as
the
ones
that
are
approving
this
as
we
go.
F
So
that's
why
I'm
you
know
kind
of
waiting
to
get
people
looking
at
it
and
I
mean
there's
been
comments.
The
past
week
from
Chris
stanischick
was
in
there
and
Henrik
Blix
from
from
the
Argo
folks
a
couple
other
interesting
ones,
so
get
a
lot
of
eyes
on
it.
That's
I
think
that's
as
one
of
my
goals
and
it's
something
that
we
can
all
rally
around
absolutely.
I
Like
publishing
is
actually
a
question
you
have
to
ask
because
like
if
it's
a
matter
of
just
refining
ideas
and
sharing
across
the
industry,
there's
tons
of
that
that
we've
already
got
and
we're
going
to
continue
to
get
as
we
go.
And
then
it's
like
someone
was
asking
about
the
marketing
of
it
like
what
we're
hoping
to
use
this
for
I.
Think
you've
mentioned
some
things
of
your
goals
of
not
then
diving
into
the
deeper.
You
know
this
being
quite
abroad.
I
F
F
F
J
I
G
A
K
I
think
anything
from
from
kind
of
like
from
them,
even
if
it's
like
a
like
a
little
like
a
introduction
to
text
somewhere
about
something
could
be
like
a
great
addition
to
the
you
not
to
just
have
like
the
you
know,
the
things
that
we've
been
doing
about
like
having
that,
from
the
perspective
of
you,
know
someone
who's
kind
of
written,
a
book
about
how
he's
supposed
to
structure
these
things.
And
why
have
these
types
of
teams?
That
would
be
great.
H
K
I
I
would
say
yes,
if
you're
able
to
get
someone
in
that,
could
do
that.
That
would
be
great.
You
know
it's
not
only.
You
know
we're
not
only
technical
people
that
might
choose
to
write
something
in
a
very
convoluted
technical
manner,
but
there's
also
people
from
different
nationalities
but
different.
H
So
maybe
we
can,
we
can
hold
off
on
it
until
we
feel
like
the
document
is
in
a
stable,
State
like
we,
you
know
we
have
all
the
things
in
there
that
we
want
and
then
at
that
point
I
can
take
it
to
film
to
to
do
a
pass.
This
process
is
a
bit
different,
like
I'd
have
to
export
it
to
a
word
doc
and
then
he's
going
to
do
edits
in
the
word
doc.
H
F
F
F
F
F
F
F
You
know
this
is
kind
of
vague
at
this
point
I'm,
but
this
was
yeah.
This
was
just
one
possibility
where
we
go
next,
we
might
even
aggregate
like
if
we
could
create
like
a
bit
of
a
framework
which
I
had
started
on
I
guess
a
year
ago,
there's
a
GitHub
doc,
which
is
which
is
a
kind
of
a
forum
for
collecting
feedback,
but
we
could
create
like,
and
it's
got
like
five
or
six
questions.
It
needs
to
be
fixed
up
a
little.
F
That
was
one
possibility
is,
is
finding
more
ways
to
interview
users.
The
next
one
I
put
on.
There
is
building
a
prototypical
platform
as
again
to
guide
users
like
so
I'm
trying
rap
I'm.
Actually
looking
at
USM
settings
I
know
you've
done
some
projects
like
this
I.
Have
you
know?
Probably
a
bunch
of
us
have
you
know
and
I
called
out
Mauricio's,
because
I
was
impressed
with
what
he
did
back
in
kubecon.
F
There's
another
possibility,
and
the
last
one
I
put
is,
is
dive
into
each
capability
and
that's
kind
of
why
a
list
of
capabilities,
because
it
kind
of
sets
a
a
framework
for
for
what
we
might
do
next
like
in
each
of
those,
let's
say
observability.
Let's
say
you
know,
write
out
the
what
that
means
and
how
they
fit
together,
where
they
might
go
on
a
platform
on
the
relevant
projects
that
Secrets
manager,
Secrets
management
or
bindings,
and
things
like
that
write
that
up
at
the
doc
they
put
it
into
our
thing.
E
Yeah
so
I
actually
shared
a
medium
article,
so
this
was
by
keys,
I
believe
director
of
SRE
or
something
at
Palo
Alto
Ramesh,
and
he
has
this
really
good
blog
series
that
he's
still
in
the
process
of
writing.
So
he's
written
the
first
two
parts
about
how
he's
basically
crafted
Palo
Alto
networks,
platform,
engineering
team
and
how
they're
using
backstage
you
know
what
are
kind
of
the
key
things
that
they're
wanting
to
solve
for
from
an
outcome.
E
Point
of
view
right
so
there's
some
things
around,
like
you
know:
developer
observability
for
their
apps,
and
so
you
know,
Palo
Alto
is
saying
like
hey
like
we.
We
built
this
kind
of
observability
thing
on
top
of
Backstage
and
you
can
kind
of
whenever
you
build
an
app
as
a
developer,
just
point
it
to
this
observability
thing
and
kind
of
like
bring
your
own
app
into
this
observability
platform
now.
So
these
are
kind
of
the
things
you
know
we're
noticing,
at
least
from
the
IDP
side
of
things.
There's
like
this.
E
You
know
self-service
infrastructure
component
right,
there's
a
app
lifecycle
component
and
that's
where
the
r
goes,
and
you
know
git
Ops
things
are
coming
into
play
right
and
then
there's
a
observability
and
visibility
kind
of
component.
You
know
for
your
applications
for
those
infrastructure
pieces
and
so
I
thought
that
was
a
really
good
article
to
share
and
I
think
was
at
least
from
my
point
of
view,
starting
to
see
a
lot
of
thought
leadership
articles
in
the
space.
F
I
B
B
I
wonder
if
there
there
are
now
several
startups
that
are
trying
to
create
IDP
right
either
as
a
product.
You
know
as
a
product
that
you
can
install
on-prem
or
as
a
service
I
wonder
if
they
would
be
willing
to
talk
to
us
and
and
if
we
could
be
able
to
try
to
identify
some
common
themes
across
what
they're
doing
and
maybe
try
to
derive
some
I'm
afraid
to
say
the
word,
but
maybe
common
interfaces
like
maybe
at
some
point.
B
B
Now
an
IDP
obviously
is
way
way
more
complicated,
so
I'm
not
saying
I'm
I
don't
want
to
trivialize
the
concept,
but
if
we
could
start
to
identify
those
common
theme
that
an
IDP
needs
to
have
based
on
the
work
that
these
startups
are
doing,
maybe
at
some
point
we
could
get
there,
or
at
least
we
could
drive
these.
Like
you
said,
there
are
some
capabilities
that
all
the
idps
need
to
have.
B
F
A
D
A
D
Seeing
this
Josh
I
think
there's
another
very
cool
project
in
the
cncf
ecosystem.
That's
called
cross
plane.
I
think
we
definitely
want
to
get
in
touch
with
those
folk
as
well
to
join
this
group
as
well,
because
they
are
doing
some
kind
of
integration
for
the
idps
like
like
they
have
a
tool
called
cross
plane
that
help
you
build
resources
in
the
cloud
using
kubernetes,
so
I
think
those
fold
are
also
interested
in
so
I
will
try.
I
know
some
of
the
folks
I
have
some
connection
with
the
cross-plane
community.
D
F
K
K
That's
kind
of
why
I'm
here
and
there's
probably
other
people
who
are
also
doing
services
that
are,
you
know,
to
geared
towards
like
the
platform,
engineering,
internal
developer
platform
scenario,
more
or
less
so
I'm
sure
this.
You
know
we're
going
to
be
able
to
find
several
people
to
contact
about
this.
F
B
B
F
B
F
B
I,
don't
know
at
this
point,
I
think:
okay,
it's
too
early
to
say:
hey,
there's
going
to
be
an
interface,
but
it's
clear
that
we're
all
trying
to
solve
the
same
problem
so
I'm.
If
we
dig,
we
could
possibly
find
some
commonalities
right,
yeah
right
now
we
are
solving
the
same
problem
in
very
different
ways.
It
seems
to
me
that
that's
where
we
are
at
this
point,
okay,.
E
Like
some,
some
companies
are
going
to
go
to
like
the
humanitx
of
the
world
and
kind
of
use
like
have
them
as
their
sort
of
point
for
idps.
Right,
I
think
some
things
we
are
starting
to
notice
is
in
the
industries
that
would
backstage
just
getting
such
tremendous
adoption
right.
Some
a
lot
of
a
lot
of
these
platform
teams
kind
of
want
to
build
the
idps
themselves,
because
maybe
they
want
more
control,
maybe
there's
some
specific
requirements
for
their
Dev
organization.
E
Some,
the
you
know
certain
Humana
Tech
will
have
certain
resource
drivers,
which
is
great
right,
they've
developed
them
something
but,
like
you
know,
with
backstage
and
cross-plane,
maybe
they
want
a
little
bit
more
flexibility
there
in
terms
of
the
way
they're
managing
the
infra
right.
So
I
think
when
we're
when
we're
talking
about
like
what
that
standard
is
I.
Think
the
humanitic
point
of
view
of,
of
course,
is
really
great,
but
also
trying
to
understand
like
how
someone
like
what
are
kind
of
the
key
components.
E
Someone
needs
to
set
up
an
IDP
if
they
wanted
to
themselves,
especially
their
a
large-scale
organization
right
and
what
are
kind
of
the
key
building
blocks.
They
would
want
to
use
kind
of
and
sort
of.
What
is
that
interface
right
at
the
end
of
the
day,
as
as
you
were
saying
earlier,
I
think
that
would
be
really
good
to
have.
K
H
H
I
think
one
thing
that
I,
like
I,
mean
think
about
this.
A
lot
and
I
think
it
it
touched
it.
It
kind
of
intersects,
with
this
conversation
about
companies
like
human
attack.
Is
that
one
of
the
things
that
I'm
observing,
especially
because
we're
doing
a
lot
of
work
with
backstage
and
we're
seeing
a
lot
of
companies
that
are
trying
to
use
backstage
to
build
adps,
there
seems
to
be
a
pretty
wide
Gap
in
understanding
what
it
means
to
provide
a
platform
as
a
service
or
like
as
a
product
I.
H
H
H
I
L
Was
gonna,
say
yeah,
we
do
a
lot
of
work
in
the
application
development
space
in
particular,
and
we
got
involved
in
this
you're.
Okay,
we
got
involved
in
this
working
group,
mainly
through
kind
of
the
app
Dev
angle,
and
for
me,
what
really
stood
out
existing
in
the
white
paper
was
the
definition
of
roles
and
how
people
were
participate
in
the
platform
and
to
me
showing
how
developers
take
place
or
participate
or
for
themselves,
but
also
articulating
to
like
the
It
outs
folks
and
the
platform
Engineers.
L
How
should
applications
developers
be
included
and
be
expected
to
participate
in
this
platform
was
really
helpful
to
me
as
far
as
like,
if
I'm
a
developer,
referencing
a
standard
for
how
a
platform
should
operate,
and
it
gives
me
the
backup
I
need
to
communicate
with
the
it
guys
versus
like
the
the
other
way
around
as
well,
but
I
totally
agree.
We
always
articulate.
L
This
is
like
the
platform
is
the
sandbox
that
all
these
parties
play
in,
and
this
is
a
kind
of
a
play
nice
together,
rule
set
of
rules
and
technologies
that
enable
this
is
is
kind
of
my
approach
to
what
the
or
might
have
additional
what
the
platform
ends
up
being
so
I,
really
like
the
existing
stuff
defines
you
know
how
do
I
participate?
What
is
my
role?
How
do
these
different
areas
participate?
It's
pretty
awesome.
H
I
think
that's
the
like,
because
that's
what
one
thing
that
makes
companies
a
humanitar
like:
that's
where
I
think
they
they
do
a
really
good
job
is
that
they
have
to
think
about
the
product
like
they
have
to
think
about
making
it
appealing
to
the
users.
How
can
we
expand
that
to
or
how
can
we
make
that
accessible
to
people
who
are
building
platforms
from
scratch?.
I
B
I
I
observe
the
same
in
you
know
when
I
work
with
the
customer,
the
same
that
you
describe,
but
in
our
document
I
we
we
try
to
to
say
many
times
that
we
want
to
take
the
developer's
point
of
view.
I
think
maybe
it
got
lost
in
the
last.
You
know
rewrite,
but
it
was
really
always
you
know
we
we
we
do.
You
know
it's
all
about
serving
the
developers
serving
the
customer
of
the
platform
which
are
the
Developers
I.
Think
right,
Josh,
that's
that's
yeah!.
B
F
Was
hearing
from
Taurus
that
that
what
we
that
that's
for
sure,
that's
what
we're
saying
but
now
like
as
we
understand
the
community
as
we
take
it
and
go,
that's
the
that.
What
I'm
kind
of
hearing
from
all
of
you
is
that
we,
it's
that
point
between
the
developers,
the
app
devs
and
the
platform
Engineers
that
we
want
to
explore
a
little
more
because
all
of
you
called
out
either
API
things
like
cross
plane
or
the
UI
like
backstage,
like
so
yeah
I.
Think
that
that
was
never
was
here.
F
H
I
think
yeah.
It's
it's
I,
think
that
the
you
like
this
white
paper
can't
Encompass
everything
right.
It's
it's
not
going
to
be
a
viable
of
platform.
Engineering
right
like
but
I
think
what
we
could
do
is
maybe,
as
a
follow-up
work
is,
what
might
be
helpful
is
Define
what
good
looks
like,
but
what
is
a
good
developer
experience
on
a
platform?
H
There's
just
one
one
of
the
things
we
struggle
with.
Is
that
there's
a
lot
of
kind
of
meat
in
between
of
like
what
is
it
actually
supposed
to
be?
That's
missing
for
them.
They
give
you
a
general
idea
that
they
want.
Do
you
have
an
IDP
but
they're,
but
they're
not
really
sure
what
it?
What
what
my
adpu
looks
like.
E
Yeah
and
what
governance
controls
they
want
as
well,
right
like,
for
example
like
if
we're
talking
about
self-service
infrastructure,
is
that
for
entire
cluster?
Is
that
for
namespace?
Okay,
if
it's
for
namespace
what
are
sort
of
the
governance
controls
that
I
want
there
right,
like
I,
think
so,
and
it's
going
to
depend
like
widely
depending
on
what
organization
you're
at
right,
but
it's
showing
some
sort
of
like
guidance
in
terms
of
like
hey.
If
you're
going
this
down
this
path,
here's
how
you
should
approach
it
right
or
here's
the
things
you
could.
E
F
E
F
A
I
K
K
You
know
white
paper
just
on
making
sure
that
the
users
of
your
platform
are
having
a
good
time
like
what
do
you
do
to
make
it
better
for
them?
What
do
you?
What
do
you
do
to
make
it
secure
without
hindering
them?
You
know
all
those
kind
of
things,
because
it's
it's
such
a
big
topic
that
I
think
it
kind
of
deserves
its
own
basic
white
paper.
C
K
Yeah
yeah
and
like
the
product
management
or
product
development.
Part
of
this
is
the
one
thing
that
whenever
you
know,
I
I
talk
to
people
who
are
starting
to
build
services
around
these
platforms.
That's
what
they
struggle
with.
It's,
not
the
technical
course
like
like
combining
stuff
and
making
it
work.
H
Yeah
I
completely
agree.
That's
one
of
the
things
that
we
see
a
lot
is
that
there
are
certain
skills,
like
it's
technical
part.
They
they're
used
to
figuring
out,
but
asking
questions
and,
like
you
know,
having
your
empathy
for
the
circumstances
and
making
sure
that
you
solve
problems
to
address.
Those
is
something
that
it's
just.
They
haven't
practiced
that
skill
continuously
and
they
don't
understand
they
have,
and
they
might
not
even
know
that
they
need
a
product
manager.
You
know,
so
they
don't
even
have
that
skill
on
their
in
their
organization.
H
F
Thank
you,
yeah
I
I
am
excited,
I.
Think
that
yeah,
let's
make
this
the
I
mean
attentively.
Does
somebody
want
to
open
an
issue
like
let's
build?
Let's,
you
know,
go
a
little
deeper
into
what
the
experience
is
with
a
platform
should
be
like
talk
about.
You
know
the
different
kinds
of
experience.
I,
don't
know
we'll
open
an
issue
to
talk
about
that,
and
then
we
start
putting
that
together
and
it
also
could
influence
the
interviews
like
I
I,
really
I,
think
backstage
users
like
that
for
the
same
reasons
that
they're
starting
there.
F
E
Ultimately,
these
platform
teams
are
serving
developers
right,
they're,
the
end
users,
so
like
the
it's
so
they're,
the
customer
at
the
end
of
the
day.
So
if
we
can
show
some
thought
leadership
there
in
terms
of
like
you
know,
how
should
you
approach
it?
Do
you
need
a
product
manager
not
to
kind
of
like,
like
Drive,
continuous
development
of
this
IDP,
like
what
are
trying
to
figure
out
like
what
are
the
key
requirements?
And
then,
after
that,
like
phase
two
can
be
like?
E
So,
for
example
like
if
self-service
infrastructure
is
not
a
huge
part
of
your
requirements,
right,
maybe
cross-plane
doesn't
come
as
much
into
play
right
because
you're
kind
of
managing
that
yourself-
or
maybe
it
does
I,
don't
know
I'm
just
giving
a
random
example
here,
but
I
think
it'd
be
good
to
have
something
which
kind
of
demonstrates
at
least
the
empathy
part
first.
And
how
do
you
really
connect
with
your
developers
and
figure
out
like
what
do
they
need
to
be
successful
right?
E
B
With
you,
I'm
not
good
at
empathy,
unfortunately,
but
I've
been
with
developers
team
that
we're
so
used
to
pain
that
you
know
you
would
ask
them
questions
and
how
how
they
wanted
to.
You
know
what
you
could
do
to
make
their
life
better
and
they
didn't
have
any
anything
to
say
like
they
were
so
used
to
paint
that
they
couldn't
imagine
a
way
to
get
a
better
life
like
a
better,
a
better
way
of
working.
B
K
It
is,
it
is
a
skill
set
knowing
what
kind
of
questions
you
need
to
ask
for
them
to
realize
what
they
kind
of
need,
or
you
know.
When
can
you
just
push
forward
to
say
this?
Is
how
you're
supposed
to
do
it,
because
they,
you
know,
you
could
be
right
and
you
could
be
wrong.
That's
that
type
of
like
that's.
K
That's
like
it's
stuff
that
I
learned
being
like
a
a
you
know:
Cloud
Architects
for
customers,
but
it's
still
kind
of
hard,
and
it
requires
a
lot
of
empathy,
and
you
know,
even
though
I'm
a
technical
person
like
in
certain
aspects
that
you
know
the
person
who
are
doing
you
know
the
development
part
might
not
be
as
technical
on
certain
aspects
of
it.
It
might
not
realize
that
what
they're
doing
could
potentially
be
the
wrong
way
of
doing
it.
K
You
know
it's
still
probably
going
to
be
a
platform
you
might,
it
might
be
a
crappy
platform,
but
it's
still
probably
going
to
be
a
platform.
It
probably
will
work
if
you're
just
doing
stuff
the
right
way,
but
then
knowing
how
to
make
it
accessible
to
others,
and
you
know
what
things
they
have
to
go
through
and
like
realizing.
K
L
G
D
F
So
I
put
we're
coming
up
the
time,
so
I'll
just
jump
in
here,
I
put
in
the
notes
what
I,
what
I
kind
of
am
hearing
coming
out
here
is.
You
know,
focus
on
that
that
experience
layer,
the
the
and
product
management
as
a
as
a
next
topic
and
I
I
kind
of
think
it
openlabs
with
the
idea
of
interviewing
users.
H
I
mean
I
can
but
I
can
open
the
issue
since
I
seem
to
have
opened
this
kind
of
forms,
so
I
can
open
the
issue
for
it.
We
can
take
it
from
there.
I
can
also
post
some
of
the
resources,
because
I've
been
tracking
this
there's
some
discussions
that
happen
to
platform
engineering,
community
and
there's
some
interesting
talks
from
the
Blackfish
Community
as
well.
So
I
can
call
some
of
those
resources
as
a
starting
point
and
we
can
go
from
there.
C
E
F
F
Okay
and
I
think
the
other
just
looking
over.
What
was
the
other
next
steps
here
was
to
schedule
a
meeting,
a
review
for
the
doc
itself
and
the
content
itself
next
Tuesday
at
10.
At
the
same
time,
oh
10,
my
time,
1600.,
it's
same,
we
didn't
it's
a
little
tight
here.
Maybe
we
should
we
schedule
it
for
next
I'm
wondering
whether
we
should
do
project
demos
here,
I
guess
so,
should
we
do
it
next
time?
Yes,.
D
Yes,
absolutely
I
think
next
time
we
could
do.
We
could
do
a
demo
here,
but
today,
on
the
short
notes,
we'll
let
people
know
what
perilous
is.
What
community
is
all
about?
Just
a
two
or
three
minute
detail
here
is
so
actually
parallels
is
now
is
a
cncf
Sandbox
project
and
I.
Think
we've
done
great
things.
We
have
started
the
project
and
I
think
in
last
2022
of
July
I
guess,
and
we
made
it
five
months
of
the
projects
and
is
now
the
cncf
sample
I
think
we
have
Fosters
to
climb
that
ladder.
D
I
think
this
is
a
great
great
work
by
the
team.
Entire
team
really
appreciated
the
effort
they
put
on.
Apart
from
that,
we
are
also
listed
tireless
on
the
digital
ocean.
Marketplace.
If
you
search
on
the
digital
version,
Marketplace
in
the
security
category
and
search
for
parallels,
parallels
can
be
available
as
a
one-click
button
install
you
don't
need
to
do
anything
else.
D
It's
you
can
run
parallels
on
micro,
kids,
it's
kind
any
kubernetes
cluster
of
your
choice,
but
I
think
if
you
are
in
the
AKs,
gke
or
eks
cluster
kind
of
a
team,
I
think
Paris
really
help
you
a
lot,
because
there
is
a
notion
of
like
a
developer,
you
give
or
access
to
the
developer.
He
can
see
anything
and
he
can
see
any
namespace.
He
can
deploy
the
stuff
in
any
name
stiff.
D
We
don't
has
anything
so
I
will
share
the
link
on
the
to
share
the
link
in
the
chat
as
well,
while
I'm
talking
is
parallels
actually.
So
it's
a
I
think
these
are
really
talking
about
developer
empathy.
So
it's
it's.
It's
actually
how
developers
giving
the
fine-grained
controls
of
the
access
to
the
resources
they
only
need
So.
Currently,
as
of
today,
while
I'm
speaking
to
you
is,
we
are
working
with
the
AWS
Marketplace
integration
for
the
parallels.
D
Most
of
the
thing
things
already
been
done,
I
think
in
a
two
three
weeks
of
time
you
see
parallels
in
the
AWS
Marketplace
as
well,
so
this
is
actually
the
currently
process.
We
wanted
to
parallels
to
AI
part
of
the
gke
Azure
on
other
other
Marketplace
as
well,
because
we
see
there's
a
big
big
pain
of
giving
developer
access.
The
resources
they
need.
Plus
are
looking
forward
to
have
some
Integrity
with
the
tools
like
rcd
flux,
because
we
see
there's
also
need
on
those
tools
to
be
have
been
A.
Fine
grain
controller
right.
D
So
if
you
look
at
the
kubernetes
ecosystem,
if
you
look
at
the
kubernetes,
when
you
talk
with
the
kubernetes,
the
first
thing
you
hate
with
that
is
API
server
and
then
the
request
goes
to
the
different
code.
I
think
you
end
up
talking
to
the
validation,
controller
mutation,
web
hook
and
I.
Think
in
our
back
is
a
is
a
first
step.
You
need
to
talk
about
it,
so
I
think
in
terms
of
the
roughly
kubernetes
operation
platform.
This
is
one
of
the
best
feature
in
our
platform.
We
see.
This
is
a
need,
the
community.