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Leading DevOps Transformation with Gamification - Ravi Devineni, Northwestern Mutual
JW Grand Ballroom 4
Speakers: Ravi Devineni
With many organizations making a pivot to DevOps mindset, it is imperative that we measure progress on that journey. At Northwestern Mutual, we wanted to chart our journey and demonstrate our progress throughout. As a part of that we developed a gamification process which leverages data from various Devops tools in the tool chain and aggregates it into dashboards to provide visibility on current state and trending over time. In this session, I’ll show you what types of metrics we captured and how this process can drive improvements at your organization.
A
Hey
folks,
thank
you
for
coming
to
this
session.
The
topic
for
today
is
leading
devops
transformation
with
gamification.
My
name
is
ravi
davinini,
I'm
from
northwestern
mutual.
You
can
see
my
information
there.
I
work
on
a
team
called
devops
engineering
at
nm.
Our
job
is
to
create
tools
and
processes
for
ci,
cd
and
devops
tools
that
enable
development
teams
to
ship
applications
faster
and
in
a
more
secure
way.
I
want
to
thank
continuous
delivery
foundation
for
putting
this
event
together
and
giving
me
an
opportunity
to
present
some
ideas
here.
A
A
little
bit
about
my
company.
Northwestern
mutual
is
a
financial
services
company,
headquartered
in
milwaukee
wisconsin.
We
started
as
a
mutual
in
1857
established
for
the
benefit
of
the
policy
owners.
165
years
later
today,
we're
a
fortune
90
company
with
more
than
4.9
million
clients,
so
we're
still
a
mutual,
but
we
have
a
unique
culture,
deeply
dedicated
to
helping
people
achieving
financial
security.
A
Nm
is
the
largest
direct
provider
of
life
insurance
in
the
united
states,
and
we
have
high
degrees
of
customer
satisfaction
with
97
percent
of
policy
owners
coming
back
year
after
year.
In
addition
to
all
of
that
right,
we
have
a
lot
of
challenging
problems
to
solve.
We
have
some
amazing
technologies
that
we're
using
in
cloud
and
devops,
so
we're
trying
to
bring
digital
transformation
to
a
160
year
old
company,
a
very
inclusive
and
diverse
workplace,
as
well
so
the
agenda
for
today
right.
So
we
want
to
talk
about
the
problem.
A
What
does
it
mean
to
do?
Devops
right?
What
does
devops
transformation
mean
right?
What
are
some
various
methodologies?
What
does
the
industry
say
about
this
and
what
are
some
of
the
metrics
that
we
could
use
to
to
focus
on
and
we'll
talk
about
some
gamification
methodologies
that
we've
used
the
philosophy
behind
it?
The
tools
that
we've
implemented
at
our
company
to
get
our
company
moving
in
the
right
direction?
I'd
love
to
have
some
questions
at
the
end
as
well,
because
I
haven't
seen
much
of
that.
So
what
does
it
mean
to
do?
A
Devops
right
so
before
I
before
we
talk
about
the
problem
right,
I
think
christopher
you,
you
talked
about
this
in
your
previous
talk
as
well
right.
This
is
a
definition.
Basically,
you
and
I
both
copied
from
aws
documentation,
and
some
of
this
was
covered
at
the
keynote
yesterday
as
well.
I'm
not
going
to
read
it,
but
I've
highlighted
some
key
parts
of
the
definition.
Right
devops
is
a
set
of
cultural
philosophies.
A
A
So
we're
saying
that
devops
is
a
set
of
cultural
philosophies
and
christopher
was
touching
on
some
of
these
earlier
then,
the
question
becomes:
what
are
those
philosophies
right?
A
few
things
I
listed
out
here
shared
responsibility
right.
This
is
an
extremely
important
aspect
right
in
this
model,
the
developers
don't
think
that
operations
is
not
their
responsibility
and
vice
versa.
There
are
no
silos
here
right.
A
The
teams
are
autonomous,
which
means
everything
that
the
team
needs
to
do
to
deliver
something
all
the
skills
that
the
team
needs
is
in
the
team,
ownership
and
accountability
next
one.
This
is
the
corollary
to
the
above
point
right.
This
is
a
model
which
says
you
build
it,
you
own
it
you
own
it.
You
support
it
like
if
you
own
something
you
own
it
end
to
end,
including
the
customer
experience.
You
know,
post
production,
any
feedback
and
all
of
that
systems.
Thinking
is
another
important
one.
A
When
we
think
about
software
systems
right,
we
think
about
them
holistically
as
a
front-end
developer,
doesn't
think
about
just
the
screens
that
they're,
building,
right
and
or
a
back-end
developer
doesn't
think
about
apis
or
back-end.
All
of
them
are
collectively
trying
to
solve
the
problem,
trying
to
challenge
each
other.
Thinking
about
the
system
holistically.
A
A
continual
experimentation
and
learning
is
another
important
one.
A
learning
organization
is
a
very
effective
organization
right
people
who
work
for
organizations
like
that
are
generally
happier.
Such
companies
are
a
lot
more
competitive.
They
are
a
lot
more
adaptive
to
change
as
well.
They
obtain
new
customers
because
they're
constantly
doing
experimentation
and
getting
feedback
from
the
customers.
A
The
next
one
is
automation
first
mindset
this
is
about.
This
is
about
saving
money
on
automating
manual
processes
right.
This
is
about
reducing
soil,
atypical
sre
faces,
but
not
just
that
right.
Automation.
First
mindset
calls
for
a
holistic
solution
to
major
business
problems,
using
automation,
uber,
for
example,
right
their
their
customer
support
platform.
A
It's
completely
automated
right,
there's
no
human
involved.
They
could
have
taken
the
traditional
approach
and
gone
with.
You
know
having
a
bunch
of
call
centers
manned
with
you
know,
people
answering
phones
and
stuff,
but
they
didn't
do
that.
They
they
went
out
and
they
wouldn't
have
scaled
anywhere
right.
They
went
up
with
a
more
radical
approach.
They
said:
how
do
we
build
a
system
that
doesn't
have
any
human
intervention
at
all?
So
that's
the
mindset
for
automation.
First
mindset.
I'm
referring
to
so
devops
is
a
set
of
cultural
philosophies.
A
Devops
is
a
set
of
technical
practices
right,
modern
technical
practices.
So,
if
you
look
at
this,
I
listed
out
a
few
here.
Each
of
these
practices
basically
underlines
a
cultural
aspect.
We
just
talked
about
continuous
integration,
for
example
right.
It
is
about
reducing
communication
overhead,
it's
about
getting
fast
feedback
when
someone
breaks
a
build
right,
the
entire
team
swamps
on
it
and
prioritizes
fixing
that
build
this
is
accountability
displayed
in
real
life.
This
is
this
is
collective
responsibility
displayed
in
real
life.
You
can
see
the
business
outcomes
also
they're
all
positive.
A
We
can
take
one
more
deployment,
automation,
for
example,
right
it
takes
the
pain
away
from
releasing
code
right
makes,
makes
the
releases
extremely
routine
and
boring
what
happens
right
when,
when
releases
are
routine
and
boring
right,
there
are
a
lot
of
possibilities.
Teams
can
experiment,
feature
flags
right.
We
can
release
some
features
to
a
small
set
of
customers
and
gather
early
feedback
on
usage
patterns,
viability
of
new
business
ideas
and
stuff
right
so
stuff
like
that.
So
devops
is
a
set
of
modern
technical
practices.
A
Devops
is
a
set
of
tools,
tools
that
enable
technical
practices.
We
just
touched
upon
earlier
right,
modern
tools
that
enable
modern
technical
practices.
This
is
just
an
example
of
the
tools
at
various
stages
of
the
software
development
life
cycle.
There's
a
lot
of
options
at
this
stage.
Obviously,
in
each
stage,
every
company
needs
to
select
tools
that
fit
their
needs
and
there's
a
lot
more
out
in
the
market.
You
can
see.
So
what
is
the
problem?
A
The
problem
can
be
broken
down
into
three
statements
right.
How
do
you
change
the
culture
of
a
large
organization
right,
especially
at
organizations
that
typically
do
weekend
releases
once
every
three
months
or
so?
How
do
you
change
the
behavior
of
a
large
number
of
engineers
right?
Typically,
large
organizations
have
anywhere
from
2000
to
5000
employees
working
on
various
things
right,
and
how
do
you
change
tools,
especially
at
large
organizations
that
have
been
doing
technology
for
many
decades
right?
Large
organizations
are
typically
where
no
tool
is
ever
truly
retired.
A
So
what
do
we
do?
So,
whenever
we're
faced
with
a
problem,
we
look
outside
right
to
see
if
someone
else
has
solved
this
problem,
because
what
smart
people
do
is
they
solve
problems
and
they
write
books
about
it
and
and
then
they
give
speeches
about
it
too,
like
the
google
folks
from
yesterday.
So
what
does
the
industry
say
about
this?
So
the
keynote
touched
up
on
this
a
little
bit,
so
we
looked
at
a
few
things
here.
A
Right,
there's,
obviously
accelerate
book
state
of
devops,
the
authors
are
pretty
famous
folks
and
they
have
written
other
books
as
well
state
of
devops
2021.
Someone
just
talked
about
that
earlier
here
are
a
few
takeaways
right
capabilities.
Model
of
measurement
is
essential
for
organizations
so
saying
that
here's
a
set
of
capabilities
and
the
teams
will
get
measured
on
how
well
they're
doing
on
each
of
them
right
and
there
are
24
such
capabilities
that
drive
improvement.
A
Accelerate
book
has
that
four
metrics
to
measure
software
delivery
performance,
four
categories
of
performers,
low
medium
high
and
elite
high
performers
always
strive
for
both
speed
and
stability.
Strive
is
the
key
word
here.
They
strive
not
because
their
organization
is
telling
them
to
do
it
right.
They
strive
because
they
are
pursuing
excellence
in
in
whatever
field
they
are
in
right
and
the
way
to
change
culture
is
by
changing
how
people
behave
right.
Social
element,
plus
competitive
development
is
how
you
drive
people's
engagement.
A
These
are
some
of
the
takeaways,
and
these
are
the
24
key
capabilities
listed
in
the
accelerate
book
right
there
are.
There
are
things
such
as
you
know,
trunk-based
development,
shifting
security
to
the
left,
even
transformational
leadership
leadership
plays
an
important
part
in
this.
We'll
touch
upon
that
again.
At
the
end,
there
are.
These
are
the
four
keys
that
google
google
folks
mentioned
yesterday
and
first
two
lead
time
deployment
frequency.
These
are
metrics
related
to
speed
they're
in
blue.
The
last
two
mean
time
to
restore
and
change
failure.
A
A
So
my
last
bullet
point
earlier
social
element
and
competitive
element
combined,
is
how
you
drive
people's
behavior
and
hence
change
right.
This
is
a
concept,
that's
called
gamification,
so
here's
the
definition
gamification
is
the
act
of
changing
human
behavior
by
making
activities
more
enjoyable
by
making
them
into
more
game-like
right.
So
we'll
go
first
into
what
gamification
is
not
right.
It's
not
about
playing
video
games.
You
don't
get
paid
for
playing
video
games.
This
is
what
I
tell
my
son.
A
It's
not
a
magic
wand
that
fixes
everything
too
right,
expectations
that
we
create
a
dashboard
and
things
will
happen
magically
and
our
problems
are
solved.
It's
not
realistic
and
it's
definitely
not
about
creating
competition
right
or
instant
gratification
right.
Healthy
competition
is
good,
but
competition
in
a
negative
sense
will
will
lead
almost
always
to
negative
outcomes.
A
So
what
is
it
really
right?
It
is
about
reinventing
performance
measurement
systems.
Basically
gone
are
the
days
when
you
work
for
a
whole
year,
and
then
your
boss
comes
at
the
end
of
the
year
and
talks
about
your
performance
feedback
and
you
know,
give
a
bonus
and
stuff.
This
is
about
creating
effective
ways
of
feedback
right.
This
is
about
creating
tools
that
create
excitement
about
seemingly
routine
tasks,
seemingly
mundane
tasks.
It
is
about
creating
collaboration
and
and
collective
problem
solving
right.
A
A
They
have
something
called
preferred
rewards
program
and
they
have
multiple
reward
tiers
right,
depending
on
how
much
money
you
keep
in
the
bank
of
america
system,
each
tier
comes
with
its
own
benefits
right
benefits
such
as
higher
interest
rates
on
your
savings
accounts
and
free
atm
withdrawals,
lower
mortgage
rates
and
stuff
like
that,
and,
as
you
can
see,
they
have
consolidated
all
of
their
business
offerings
in
this
program.
So,
if
you
think
about
it,
typically
savings
account
savings
accounts
is,
is
a
completely
different
line
of
business.
From,
let's
say,
credit
cards
right
and
investment.
A
A
I
didn't
find
this
information
anywhere,
but
pretty
sure
bank
of
america
increased
their
revenue
by
a
lot
after
this
after
they
rolled
this
out
and
one.
Why
not
right
like
we?
Why
would
we
not
go
with
a
bank
that
rewards
our
behaviors?
We
typically
go
with
credit
cards
that
have
the
highest
cash
back
and
things
like
that.
A
Another
example,
this
is
this-
is
starbucks.
Every
time
you
drink
coffee
at
starbucks,
you
you
get
rewarded
with
stars
and
rewards
are
based
on
the
number
of
stars.
You
accumulate.
You
can
earn
one
star
per
dollar,
but
there's
more
depending
on
how
how
you
pay
you,
you
can
earn
more
stars
per
dollar
like
if
you
use
their
prepaid
card,
two
stars.
If
you
use
their
credit
card
three
stars,
but
what
they
really
want
to
want.
A
You
is
to
give
them
more
money,
whether
or
not
you
drink
coffee,
essentially
right
like
credit
cards
and
investment
are
totally
different
lines
of
business
and
they
have
nothing
to
do
with
coffee,
which
is
what
starbucks
sells.
So
they
are
trying
to
become
a
bank
ever
since
they
started
this
rewards
program.
Starbucks
revenue
went
up
by
3.6
billion
dollars
a
year
and
that's
just
scratching
the
surface
right,
so
you
will
see
examples
of
this
all
over
the
place
if
you
start
noticing,
there's
loyalty,
programs,
leaderboards
on
your
health,
app
on
your
apple
watch.
A
A
So
we
did
a
couple
of
things
this
we
started
a
program
called
cicd
pipeline
certification,
similar
to
bank
of
america.
We
wanted
to
come
up
with
a
maturity
model
if
you
may
right
some
something
for
the
teams
to
aspire
to
as
they
made
progress
in
their
journey,
but
also
accomplishments
along
the
way
right.
So
we
looked
at
what
are
the
activities
involved
in
a
team
right?
A
That's
the
gold
standard
of
continuous
delivery,
we're
talking
about
continuous
deployment
at
that
point
right,
your
deployment
is
completely
automated,
so
this
is
bronze,
so
you
can
see
all
all
of
this
is
basic
stuff
right,
you're,
you're,
you're
not
able
to
make
a
commit
to
the
main
branch.
For
example,
your
merge
requests
need
approval.
You
cannot
approve
your
own
merge
request,
for
example
right.
Your
your
project
has
a
pipeline
built
in.
That
means.
Your
your
build
is
entirely
automated.
You
cannot
use
your
personal
id
to
push
to
main
branch.
A
These
are
all
the
fundamentals
of
application
development
process.
Basically,
and
before
I
talk
about
silver
and
gold,
I
want
to
show
something
else
right.
This
is
a
ui
that
we
built
for
this
right
in.
In
that
ui,
we
listed
out
a
few
criteria,
not
just
that
right.
We
wanted.
We
also
wanted
to
give
why
this
criteria
is
important
right.
For
example,
merge
requests
cannot
be
approved
by
the
author.
A
Why
is
that
important?
Because
we
need
peer
code
review,
because
code
reviews
are
important.
Code
reviews
are
good
for
improving.
You
know
product
quality
and
improving
shared
knowledge
and
developer
collaboration
right,
and
this
is
there
for
every
everyone
to
see.
So
there
is
no
questions
or
ambiguity
on
why
a
certain
criteria
is
there
or
why
it's
important
right.
A
This
is
silver
silver.
Is
about
adding
more
feedback,
related
themes
in
your
pipeline
things
such
as
code
code
linking
code
quality
scanning
static
scanning
container
scanning.
You
know,
license
dependency
scanning,
there's
a
lot
of
other
things
that
we
could
do
there.
Increasing
your
unit
testing
to
a
certain
level,
adding
change
management,
automated
change
management,
fast
feedback
is
the
theme
here,
like
I
said,
identifying
issues
earlier
in
the
pipeline,
because
the
later
we
find
them
the
more
expensive
it
is
to
fix
it
and
finally,
gold
right.
A
A
And
in
the
ui
we
built,
we
also
provided
a
progress
indicator.
This
is
an
example
of
a
project
that
has
bronze,
for
example,
you
can
see
the
bronze
is
green
there
and
in
your
journey
to
silver.
How
far
along
are
you-
and
this
is
indicated
by
all
the
green
checks?
So
in
this
example,
this
team
has
two
more
things
that
are
left
to
do
in
order
to
attain
silver
right
and
also
they
made
some
progress
towards
gold
as
well
like
two
of
those
seven
things
are
already
taken.
Care
of.
A
There
are
also
buttons
that
we've
created
on
the
left
side
to
opt
out,
opt
out
of
certain
projects,
because
there
are
obviously
business
cases
where
teams
all
teams
can't
participate
in
this
right
and
also
a
re-certified
button
right
that
essentially
evaluates
the
project
again
right,
for
example,
you
can
you
can
work
on
that
sixth
item
in
that
list
finish
it
and
then
click
that
button,
and
you
will
see
that
item
turned
to
green
right.
That's
basically,
instant
feedback,
instant
gratification
right
there.
A
Next
thing
is
we
we
didn't
want
our
model
to
be
a
once
and
done
model
right,
like
bronze,
silver
and
gold,
are,
are
not
something
that
you
attain
and
you're
done
with
your
journey.
At
that
point,
so
we
said
we
need
to
constantly
raise
the
bar
right,
keeping
we
keep
on
adding
new
criteria,
basic
ones,
advanced
ones
across
all
the
three
tiers,
and
I
think
this
is
extremely
important.
There
are
criteria
like
automated
rollback
and
canary
testing
and
additional
types
of
testing
in
the
pipeline.
A
Things
such
as
you
know,
performance
testing,
integration
and
functional
testing.
All
sorts
of
things
like
that
canary
testing-
these
are
pretty
complex
for
many
of
these
are
pretty
complex
for
teams
to
implement,
but
at
least
it
gives
them
a
direction
for
them
to
do
what's.
Next,
leaderboards
is
another
thing
that
we
did.
What
leaderboards
is
simply
a
list
of
scores
from
top
to
bottom
right.
It's
a
visual
representation
of
a
competition.
A
Social
comparison
happens
here
right
people.
People
can
relate
it
to
relate
to
how
they're
doing
in
comparison
to
others
and
set
goals
for
themselves.
So
it
encourages
teams
to
make
progress
on
their
own,
but
not
only
that
right.
What
it
also
does
is.
It
throws
some
light
on
teams
that
are
struggling
to
move
forward.
These
are
the
teams
that
are
at
the
bottom
of
the
list
right.
Why?
Because
not
because
we
want
to
humiliate
them
or
demotivate
them
right.
A
It
is
so
that
we
can
allocate
some
resources
extra
resources
to
help
those
teams
out
right.
It
is
more
like
a
great
opportunity
for
those
teams
to
make
progress
so
implement
leaderboards
across
the
board.
Number
of
vulnerabilities
resolved
number
of
core
quality
issues
resolved
number
of
bugs
resolved
cloud.
Cost
is
another
interesting
thing
right.
You
want.
You
want
the
team
with
the
lowest
expense
at
the
top.
There.
A
So
in
all
this
process
right,
there
are
some
key
lessons
that
we
learned-
and
this
is
the
crux
of
my
message,
so
this
has
a
lot
to
do
with
the
philosophy
chris.
You
were
mentioning
earlier,
so
we
said,
devops
is
first
about
culture,
technical
practices,
then
tools
right
tools
is
mentioned
at
the
end,
but
we
should
not
underestimate
the
value
of
good
tools
right.
We
cannot
do
continuous
delivery.
A
If
we
are
stuck
with
age
old
tools,
we
need
the
tools
to
be
pretty
modern,
pretty
cloud
native
right
and
there's
a
lot
of
tools
that
I
listed
in
my
previous
slide
that
fit
the
bill
basically,
and
we
shouldn't
think
that
we
could
use
tools
from
1980s
1990s
and
still
do
continuous
delivery,
because
that's
just
not
how
it
works.
So
if
you
want
to
really
transform
devops
at
your
org,
first
start
looking
at
the
tools
that
you
have
and
see
if
they
compare
right.
A
Also,
if
you
have
multiple
tools
that
do
the
same
job,
that's
a
problem
like
sem,
for
example,
source
control.
Right
like,
if
you
have
multiple
scm
systems,
you
have
fragmented
source
control
like
some
source
code
living
in
one
place
and
some
source
code
living
in
another
place
right.
Your
developer.
Permissions
are
fragmented
too.
Your
developers
have,
some
developers
have
access
to
some
code.
Some
other
developers
have
access
to
other
code
right.
It
affects
your
developer
collaboration.
A
Let's
say
if
a
developer
creates
a
common
shared
library
that
everybody
could
use
that
could
be
across
all
of
your
software
right.
Where
do
you
put
that
right?
Questions
like
that?
How
do
we
make
sure
it's
not
being
duplicated?
Multiple
tools
mean
more
maintenance.
Obviously,
and
more
users
need
to
be
given
access
to
both
the
tools,
multiple
tools,
so
your
licensing
costs
are
multiplied
same
with
all
other
tools
like
standardization
is
critical.
A
So
if
a
team,
if
a
team
decides
to
release
software,
they
shouldn't
be
picking
tools
in
the
supply
chain
right,
they
should
know
exactly
what
to
do
what
to
use.
So
the
tools
need
to
be
standardized
next,
one
leadership
buy-in
this
is
this
is
crucial
right.
Grassroots
efforts
are
amazing.
I
love
them,
but
if
you're
talking
about
a
large
organization,
your
grassroots
efforts
can
only
go
so
far
right.
A
A
The
gamification
approach
we
we
talked
about
is
is
basically
a
carrot
approach
right.
What
we're
saying
is
we'll
give
you
a
bronze
carrot,
a
silver
carrot
and
stuff
like
that.
But
all
carrots
and
no
sticks
is
going
to
be
a
problem
because
sticks
are
as
important
as
carrots
because
in
a
large
organization
there's
a
lot
of
things
that
are
happening
right.
There's,
multiple
teams,
every
team
has
their
own
priorities.
Nobody
has
time
to
improve
themselves.
Unless
there
is
some
enforcement,
that's
happening
so
enforcement
approach
is
essential
for
teams
right.
A
A
This
is
a
powerful
lesson.
I
learned
the
next
one
is
we
tend
to
over
underestimate
the
power
of
daily
activities
right,
I'm
referring
to
daily
activities
such
as
code
comments,
merge
requests,
you
know,
deployments
releases
monitoring
all
of
those
things
right,
but
this
goes
way
beyond
that.
This
is
applicable
to
life
in
general.
Right
like
we,
we
generally
refer
to
outcomes
the
four
dora
metrics
and
or
how
many
clients
we
we
got
in
the
last
quarter
or
how
much
revenue
we
generate
and
things
like
that.
But
these
doubt
outcomes
they
don't
happen
magically
right.
A
This
is
similar
to
gardening
right.
If
we
want
to
grow
flowers,
we
don't
necessarily
think
about
flowers.
We
don't
meditate
on
flowers,
we
think
about
soil.
We
think
about
seeding.
We
think
about
getting
our
hands
dirty.
We
think
about
sunshine.
We
think
about
watering
fertilizing
and
we
think
about
doing
those
activities
on
a
daily
basis
with
regular
with
you
know,
diligence
and
persistence.
A
A
B
B
A
Yeah
one
of
the
things
that
I
said
was
your
technology.
Leadership
needs
to
be
savvy
right.
If
they
are
not,
there
is
very
little
chance
of
making
progress
like
your
technology.
Leadership
needs
to
understand
this.
That
is
crucial
like
if
they
don't.
It
is
your
responsibility
as
a
as
a
leader
as
a
devops
leader
to
make
that
happen
right,
because
once
it
once
you
do
that
things
happen
more
smoothly,
like
things
happen
magically
because
there
is
top-down
mandates
that
can
be
done
right,
like
you
can
say,
tech
initiatives
like
every
year.
A
A
Yeah
it
take
it
takes
like
what
is
the
value
right?
What
are
the
other
organizations
doing
and
how
do
we?
How
do
we
benefit
from
doing
all
of
those
practices
it
just
takes?
You
know
a
leader
to
go
and
tell
them
to
convince
them
that
this
is
important,
and
there
are
advocates
too,
like
a
lot
of
people
who
have
been
doing
like
your
developer
advocates.
They
are
people
who
are
savvy.
They
could
be
your
your
advocates
too
right
people
who
have
been
doing
continuous
delivery
people
who
do
trunk
based
development.
C
A
Yeah
it
it
happens
right
it
happens.
Definitely
there
are
cases
where
we
said
number
of
bronze
number
of
silver,
and
we
will
like
give
you
some.
You
know
extra
point
systems,
there's
a
point
system
of
awards
and
stuff
that
we
have
so
people
game
game
the
system
right,
but
does
that
happen
all
the
time?
No
there's
a
lot
of
people
who
are
trying
to
do
the
right
thing,
because
I
was
talking
about
how
good
people
high
performers
strive
for
excellence
because
they
pursue
excellence
right
not
because
of
the
rewards
that
come
with
it.
A
There's
a
lot
of
people
right.
You
have
to
hire
right,
obviously,
there's
definitely
bad
apples,
people
who
have
opted
for
exceptions
like
out
of
hundreds
of
exceptions.
They
have
done
that.
So
it's
it's,
it
happens,
but
it's
just
like
collateral
damage
at
this
point,
like
you
have
to
you
know,
95
success
is
good
like
90.
Success
is
good.