►
From YouTube: SIG Interoperability Meeting - July 21, 2022
Description
For more Continuous Delivery Foundation content, check out our blog: https://cd.foundation/blog/
A
B
Yeah
yeah,
it's
my
office
was
like
28c
yesterday
sitting
in
my
office,
I
was
like
sweating.
I
was
like
I'm
over
it,
but
I
have
a.
I
have
a
gaming
computer
in
my
office
and
so
I've
turned
that
off
and
I'm
hoping
that
today
it
doesn't
produce
heat.
A
B
Yeah
there's
so
I'm
in
like
this
home
improvement,
slack
channel
at
work,
and
there
are
people
who
are
all
excited
about
these,
like
cameras
that
do
heat
sensing.
C
B
A
C
A
B
I've
been
kind
of
playing
around
with
something
along
those
lines
for
for
work,
which
is
we
have
like
some
tech
ton
stuff
internally
and
I'm
like
I
one.
I
don't
really
understand.
I
don't
have
like
lived
experience
with
a
lot
of
kubernetes
stuff,
and
so
I
was
like
putting
together
a
little
demo
of
a
an
end-to-end
deploy
and
then
also
I'm
trying
to
like
figure
out
when
I
ask
people
to
do
things
like
how
long
should
it
take
like.
B
I
don't
have
a
good
barometer
for
that
right
now,
and
so
I'm
like
oh,
this
seems
really
easy.
What's
what's,
why
does
it
take
so
long
for
us.
A
So
it's
kind
of
I
think
that
may
be
a
way
to
you
know,
get
people
simply
fighting
automate
things,
make
them
faster
and
so
on,
because
if
people
think
like
they
will
always
have
something
up
and
running,
they
will
not
have
a
reason
to
think
about
those
things.
Yeah
yeah.
That
was
a
fun
thing
to
read.
B
Yeah
we're
talking
about
having
thermal
cameras
like
around
your
house
to
see
where
the
heat's
coming
in.
B
B
Don't
have
air
conditioning
and
also
like
our
house,
is,
has
a
very
large
south-facing
wall
and
so
that
side
of
the
house
gets
very
hot.
C
D
B
Yep,
there's
a
person
on
tick
tock
who
specializes
his
like
phd,
is
he's
getting
a
phd.
In
basically
heat
science,
like
the
the
anthropology
of
people,
surviving
hot
temperatures
and
his
like
tic
toc
is
full
of
like
okay,
it's
hot.
Let's
talk
about
what
like
what
you
should
do
like
rinse,
your
forearms,
that's
where
a
lot
of
blood
vessels
are,
and
that
sort
of
thing
is
pretty
cool.
A
Oh,
I
should
try
it
yeah
cool,
so
terry
said
she
will
be
with
us
shortly.
Awesome
yes
like
because
like
when
we
were
presenting
topic,
I
actually
looked.
Who
is
there
and
I'm
I
didn't
see
you
just
that's
why
I
sent
you
the
link
to
reference
architecture
deck
because,
like
in
through
this
key
in
such
things,
you
know-
and
I
was
like
wondering
your
take
on
the
topic
and
now
it
looks
like
it's
a
good
opportunity
to
continue
talking
about
that,
because
next
week
this
topic
will
be
presented
to
the
board
as
well.
A
B
I'm
not
sure
that
I
did
okay,
but
I
don't
recall,
let
me
just
look
through.
I
think
I
do.
B
B
A
I
think
that's
what
me
and
terry
discussed
is
that,
like
best
practices
is
another
key
thing
in
this
topic
as
well?
So
if
you
could
put
all
these
things
together
and
present
them
in
easily
digestible
manner,
manure
would
make
others
by
the
way.
What
you
just
said
reminded
me
the
action
item
you
had
about
the
case
study,
so
I'm
not
going.
C
A
A
A
Okay,
cool
so
terry
joined
us
as
well,
so
right
here
yeah,
we
were
talking
like
what
we
should
be
talking
and
I
said
like
why
not
reference
architecture
and
like
because
people
seem
to
be
interested
and
we
had
some
feedback
from
the
technology.
Folks.
Maybe
we
can
use
this
sometime
from
this
meeting
to
work
on
some
of
those
things
and
maybe
justin
missed
the
meeting
on
tuesday.
So
terry,
if
you
want
to
summarize
the
discussion,
we
had
view
me
and
within
the
talk
that
would
make
justin's
life
better,
perhaps
or.
B
B
So
I
think
I
think
the
thing
that
we're
we're
saying
is
that
each
each
sig
is
kind
of
like
a
layer
of
concern
when
it
comes
to
a
cd
pipeline,
so
like
supply
chain
has
their
own
like
here
are
the
10
things
that
you
should
probably
be
doing,
and
we're
going
to
amalgamate
that
into
a
reference
architecture
and
say,
like
here's,
the
tekton
version
of
the
reference
architecture
and
here's
the
kept
inversion,
argo,
cd,
etc.
That's
what
I
think
we're
talking
about.
D
D
In
that
you
know,
we've
had
a
lot
of
projects
focused
on
very
specific
issues
within
that
continuous
delivery
space,
and
then
we've
had
some
overarching
projects
like
best
practices
that
have
been.
You
know
looking
at
the
methodology
itself,
but
what
we're
lacking
right
now
is
joining
all
those
bits
together
in
a
way
that
makes
it
easier
for
people
to
actually
access
all
this
knowledge
and
make
use
of
it
efficiently
and
effectively.
D
So
you
know
it's
a
certain,
certainly
as
part
of
the
best
practices
work
to
become
really
clear
from
interviewing
people
that
there
are.
There
are
two
really
strong
camps,
there's
the
those
who
are
already
heavily
involved
in
continuous
delivery,
who
you
know,
are
really
committed
to
the
whole
thing.
D
So
you
know
we
we've
really
saturated
the
market
in
terms
of
our
engagement
with
those
groups
are
already
very
familiar
with
continuous
delivery,
and
if
we
want
to
take
the
foundation
further,
we
really
now
need
to
start
opening
the
doors
to
you
know
all
the
rest
of
the
world
who
stand
to
really
benefit
from
being
able
to
adopt
those
methodologies,
but
are
struggling
because
of
the
massive
barriers
to
entry.
In
terms
of
you
know
the
knowledge
gap
and
the
technology
gap
and
everything
else.
D
D
You
know
that
higher
level
methodology
view
that
we've
been
doing
in
best
practices
to
hear
the
the
architectural
patterns
that
you're
going
to
need
to
manage
within
your
organization,
which
then
opens
up
the
opportunity
for
all
the
projects.
To
then
say,
you
know,
and
here's
how
we
implement
those
architectural
patterns
with
our
project,
so
so
that
allows
the
projects,
and
it
also
allows
the
members
to
to
get
more
involved
in
promoting
ways
of
solving
these
patterns,
using
the
tools
that
are
available
today,.
B
So
one
where,
where
are
you
in
the
process
like
I
have?
This
is
like
idea
stage
or
we
have
like
feelings
and
like
strong
opinions
about
what
the
reference
architecture
is
or.
D
So
so,
at
this
stage,
we're
just
talking
to
everyone
to
to
get
a
feel
for
people's
reaction
to
this
as
a
as
a
piece
of
work,
you
know,
is
this
something
that's
broadly
supported
within
the
foundation
is.
Does
everybody
agree
that
this
is
a
a
good
next
step?
D
D
But,
but
I
think
that
it
makes
a
lot
of
sense
to
do
something
structured
to
try
and
pull
all
these
pieces
together,
because
right
now,
we've
got
some
very
valuable
assets.
You
know,
cd
events
is
a
really
important
piece
of
work.
Best
practices
has
been
a
a
very
useful
piece
of
work
and
we've.
We've
also
got
things
like
the
the
mlops
roadmap,
which
is
going
to
prove
very
important
over
the
next
few
years,
but
which
is
currently
still
in
a
blind
spot
for
most
people
in
the
continuous
delivery
space.
D
C
D
Been
able
to
do
is
really
connect
everyone
together
to
see
the
bigger
picture
of
what
does
the
future
of
continuous
delivery
actually
look
like,
and
what
capabilities
do
consumers
of
that
technology
need
over
the
next
five
to
ten
years
to
to
make
this
stuff
actually
useful
and
add
value
broadly
across
the
industry,
and
I
think
we're
we're
in
a
position
now
to
start
having
those
conversations,
and
I
think
if,
if
we
do
that
will
bring
in
a
new
audience
in
into
the
foundation.
D
You
know
where,
where
we've
been
dressed,
addressing
a
very
technical
development
audience
to
date,
I
think
there's
an
opportunity
to
now
reach
out
more
into
that
product
manager
area
where
what
you're
saying
is:
okay,
here's
a
chance
to
influence
the
capability
that
you
rely
on
to
produce
your
products
and
to
do
that
in
a
way
that
becomes
more
standardized
with
more
reuse
with
more
interchangeability,
so
that
in
the
future,
you'll
have
a
much
bigger
pool
of
potential
technologies
that
you
can
select
from
and
it'll
be
easier
for
you
to
switch.
D
C
Just
to
continue
on
that,
it's
one
of
the
reasons
that
we
really
believe
that
interoperability
is
important
to
really
emphasize
in
the
reference
architecture.
We,
when
we're
speaking
to
maybe
not
the
developers
like,
I
think
it's
quite
easy
for
people
to
get
wrapped
up
in
a
certain
stack
and
then
sort
of
get
buy-in,
and
maybe
a
certain
line
of
technologies
and
a
certain
product.
B
Yeah
totally
I've
been
doing
so.
I
mentioned
this.
I
think
terry
before
you
joined,
but
I've
been
doing
something
along
these
lines
and
internally,
at
ebay
and
like
I
have
this
notion
in
my
head
about
what
a
pipeline
should
look
like
to
hit
the
business
goals
that
we
have
around
like
what
quality
looks
like
and
when
we
deploy
and
what
pieces
should
go
where
and
I've
been
building
out
a
kind
of
toy
example
of
like
here,
here's
the
thing
that
deploys
to
us
staging,
etc,
and
so
it
was
very
timely
to
see
this.
B
This
show
up
and
like
oh
yeah,
great
I'm,
I'm
building
a
version
of
this
already
so
I'd
it'd,
be
interesting
to
compare
notes
to
see
how
the
thing
that
I
built
is
different
than
the
thing
that
other
people
view
as
their
reference.
D
So
you'd
be
really
good
to
start
making
those
challenges
clearer
to
a
bigger
audience
and
starting
to
get
the
the
projects
and
the
tool
vendors,
who
are
already
in
the
continuous
delivery
space
to
start
thinking
about
the
requirements
of
those
machine
learning
assets,
because
if
we
don't
join
those
two
things
up,
there's
there's
going
to
be
a
a
big
crunch,
probably
in
a
year's
time,
where
the
fundamental
challenges
in
that
space
run
up
against
the
regulatory
challenges
that
are
coming
and,
and
it
all
hits
a
wall
because
the
the
way
in
which
those
mlops
tools
operate
skirts
around
most
of
the
the
governance
processes
that
we're
used
to
having
for
our
conventional
assets.
B
Yeah,
that
makes
sense,
so
I'm
I'm
gonna
assume
having
not
been
to
one
of
these,
yet
that
the
board
meeting
will
result
in
people
being
excited,
because
this
is
an
exciting
thing.
How
can
folks
who
are
interested
in
kind
of
the
interoperability
side
of
the
world
pitch
in
like
what
is
the
mechanisms
of
involvement
that
looking
for
for
the
next
steps.
D
So,
from
my
perspective,
what
I'd
like
to
see
us
doing
is
capturing
the
patterns
that
are
involved
so
to
to
look
at
this
from
the
perspective
of
best
practices
so
saying:
here's
the
overarching
end-to-end
methodology.
D
So
you
know
it
would
be
good
to
get
people
involved
from
that
that
perspective
of
taking
a
step
back
from
from
the
the
engineering
piece
and
saying
you
know
if
we
go
upwards
from
cd
events.
D
But
then
how
does
that
fit
into
the
bigger
picture
of
you
know?
We
have
multiple
product
teams
working
on
different
aspects
of
multiple
product
lines,
we're
trying
to
tie
all
that
together
into
a
managed
set
of
assets,
that
we
can
update
a
very
rapid
cadence.
D
D
But
not
everyone
will
have
had
the
perspective
of
what
happens
when
you
look
at
this
from
a
product
perspective,
where
the
actual
asset
that
that
you
want
to
manage,
isn't
just
one
feature
set:
it's
the
entire
pipeline
of
of
product
across
multiple
product
lines
and
and
you're
trying
to
think
about
how
you
can
keep
all
of
that
moving,
but
also
control
the
quality
and
the
the
maintainability
of
the
stack
at
that
level.
A
If
your
question
was
more
around
like
logistic,
stuff
justin,
I
know
like
how
people
can
find
what
discussion
to
join
around
this
topic.
I
think
that
is
one
of
the
things
that
needs
to
be
worked
out,
probably
during
next
top
meeting
on
august
2nd.
So
the
plan
is
like.
Let
me
open
that
slide
and
start
sharing,
because
this
is
some
new
discussion.
A
We
didn't
want
to
prescribe
how
to
work
with
this.
So
the
plan
was
like
present
this
to
203.
We
treat
it
on
tuesday
and
then
next
week's
discussion
will
be
interesting
and
important
and
then.
A
This
costs
the
way
forward
within
ctf
toc,
so,
second
and
depending
on
the
feedback,
it
could
go,
maybe
under
six
best
practices
or
any
work
group
that
sits
across
different
groups
taking
input
from
all
these
different.
You
know,
initiatives
and
like
how
we
do
it.
Six
work
groups
are
similar.
Anyone
can
join.
You
know
it's
like.
A
A
B
B
B
And
so
that
we've
been
the
some
of
that
work
is
is
stuff
we've
done,
but
there's
certainly
a
need
for
for
a
lot
more
one.
One
of
the
things
that
I've
been
thinking
about
since
we've
been
talking
is
it
seems
I
I'm
curious
what
it
might
look
like
to
have
a
way
for
companies
or
organizations
or
people
to
say
here's
what
I
think
or
here's
what
our
pipeline
actually
looks
like
like
here's,
our
little
pipeline
diagram
that
we
made
and
then
kind
of,
compare
and
contrast
those.
I
think
that
would
be
an
interesting.
D
So
so
so
togaf
is
the
the
architecture
group
open
framework
and
what
it
is
is
is
basically
a
very
complicated
checklist
of
all
the
things
that
you
might
encounter
when
you're
trying
to
build
an
enterprise
system.
D
So
it's
it's
a
a
way
of
approaching
the
the
management
of
a
very
complex
system
or
a
complex
suite
of
systems
by
always
using
the
same
way
of
working
to
investigate
and
document
what
you're
dealing
with
so
that
there's
a
set
of
standard
ways
of
looking
at
the
of
the
problem,
and
then
you
can
use
that
as
an
easy
way
to
communicate
between
architects
and
vendors
and
development
teams,
because
you've
got
some
standard
documentation.
D
Now,
one
of
the
one
of
the
key
tools
within
that
is
a
thing
called
views
and
viewpoints.
D
D
D
D
So
you'll
have
seen
this
page
in
best
practices,
which
has
got
a
series
of
stories
on
it,
and
these
are
you
know
very
crude
high
level
views
from
given
viewpoints
with
within
stakeholders
in
a
in.
C
D
Product,
so
you
know
a
good
way
to
approach.
This
challenge
is
actually
to
take
what
we've
got
here
and
then
expand
that
out
to
the
next
level
of
detail,
which
is
to
say,
you
know
when
we're
talking
about
continuous
delivery
as
a
methodology,
who
are
the
stakeholders
in
the
typical
organization,
what
what
views
do
they
hold
and
what
do
they
need
from
a
continuous
delivery
process?.
C
D
D
You
know
other
colors
right
those
those
types
of
things
so
by
breaking
it
up
that
way,
you
can,
you
can
fairly
quickly
get
to
a
top-down
view
on
which
factors
need
to
be
included
in
any
automation
process
in
order
to
make
that
most
useful
to
a
given
organization
and
and
it'll
start
to
show
up
gaps
in
the
existing
tooling,
because
you
know
some
things
are
easy
to
do
with
existing
tools
and
like
testing
and
other
things
are
really
hard
to
do
like
a
lot
of
the
things
in
the
software
supply
chain.
D
As
as
we
you
begin
to
understand
that
software
supply
chain
is
not
just
supply
chain
security,
it's
all
the
other
aspects
of
that
supply
chain,
around
licensing
and
availability
of
libraries,
and
you
know,
reliability
and
maintenance
and
like
in
some
cases,
you
know
commercial
contracts
between
different
suppliers.
D
So
there's
a
there's
a
lot
there,
but
I
think
we
can.
We
can
tease
a
lot
of
it
out
into
quite
simple
threads,
so
we're
probably
what
we're
going
to
end
up
with
is
a
little
bit
like
the
best
practices
site
where,
when
we
decompose
the
problem
into
a
handful
of
views,
we'll
we'll
have
lots
of
short,
simple
views
with
simple
maps
of
you
know.
B
Think
it
does.
I
think
that
there's
the
community
piece
of
that
you
mentioned,
which
is
like
the
technical
community
of
the
cdf
who's
like
okay,
you
want
to
use
tekton
tekton,
solves
these
seven
problems
and
then
there's
the
community
space
of
companies
who
have
cd
pipelines,
who
I
think
it
would
be
useful
for
them
to
be
able
to
share
their
their
view
on
it.
D
So
I
I
keep
coming
back
to
ml
ops
in
this
space.
But
it's
just
a
really
obvious
example
of
this.
You
know
a
very
well
respected
ml.
Ops
tool
chain
would
be
something
like
sage
maker,
which
has
a
massive
variety
of
capabilities
in
the
machine
learning
space
and
even
has
some
things
that
it
calls
ci
cd
pipelines,
but
the
whole
end
to
end
process
exists
in
isolation.
D
So
you
can
build
all
of
your
machine
learning
assets
with
that
tool
chain,
but
those
machine
learning
assets
probably
only
represent
about
five
percent
of
your
actual
product
assets
when
you're
trying
to
you
know
actually
go
into
production
with
that
product,
and
so
you
end
up
in
a
situation
where
you've
got
one
group
of
people
building
the
product
and
another
group
of
people,
building,
machine
learning
and
they're
not
operating
in
a
unified
methodology,
with
a
standard
set
of
tools,
they're
operating
to
very
different
models,
using
very
different
tools
and
therefore
how
do
you
perform
the
right
level
of
governance
over
those
product
releases
when
at
some
point,
somebody's
chucking,
something
over
the
fence
to
somebody
else
and
the
two
governance
methodologies?
D
So
so
the
the
ml
ops
roadmap,
which
is
one
of
our
sig
groups,
actually
gives
you
a
a
good
overview
and
then
a
detailed
breakdown
of
all
the
challenges
that
exist
in
that
space
at
the
moment.
D
D
So
if
you,
if
you
dive
into
the
cd
foundation,
repos
in
github,
you'll,
find
there's
a
sig
mlops
one.
D
A
So
one
more
thing
to
tell
you
about
the
next
week's
discussion
I
needed
to
rework
the
deck
to
make
them
less
text
and
more.
You
know,
instead
of
people
reading
the
text,
I
will
share
those
slides
with
you.
I
think
now
it
is
fourth
twice
instead
of
eight,
I
need
to
combine
few
of
them
and
then
you
can
take
a
look
at
them
and
then
I
can
update
them.
D
It
will
be
if
we
yeah,
if
we're
taking
the
text
out,
is
there
a
notes
section
that
you.
A
A
I
put
the
original
text
you
put
on
customer
problems
and
getting
custom,
those
two
slides
to
speaker,
notes
and
just
left
the
mentoring
part
and
other
thing.
What
was
the
adoption
part?
Those
sentences
are
on
the
slide
and
the
rest
bullet
points
are
on
speaker
notes,
but
I
will
share
the
deck,
those
slides
with
you,
so
you
can
see.
D
A
A
We
can
then
have
like
knowledge
space
or
whether,
based
on
the
case
studies,
we
are
getting
from
different
organizations.
That
would
also
help
the
work
we
will
be
doing
with
reference
architecture,
because
then
we
will
be
able
to
see
who
is
doing
what.
Perhaps
why
and
could
perhaps
try
to
address
some
of
these
things
within
reference
architecture
as
well,
and
I
expect
there
will
be
lots
of
overlaps
on
approaches.
Tools
might
be
different,
but
approaches
would
be
pretty
similar
to
each
other.
I
think.
B
Yeah
yeah,
I'm
like
the
thing
that
keeps
popping
up
in
my
head.
Is
you
know
if
you
were
to
draw
a
pipeline
on
a
whiteboard
you'd
end
up
with
a
bunch
of
boxes
in
a
row
and
then
like
some
boxes
under
it
wrong?
What
what
the
approvals
are
before
you
move
to
the
next
box.
Things
like
that,
and
if
there
was
a
way
where
you
could
say
like,
I
want
to
see
what
the
amazon
version
of
that
is.
The
google
version
of
that.
B
Okay,
what
like,
let's
put
both
on
the
same
view
like
what
do
those?
How
do
they
compare
and
contrast
with
one
another
like
if
we
had
common
words
and
languages,
which
I
think
we
do
around
these
different
stages
and
quality
gates,
then
that
provides
us
the
ability
to
provide
layers
like
visual
layers
of
all
right.
Here's
what
the
pipeline
that
everyone
seems
to
have
looks
like
or
or
an
approximation
of,
these
three
companies.
They
have
these
pieces
in
common
and
here's,
where
they're
different
being
able
to
to
visualize.
That
would
be
really
interesting.
A
Yeah,
I
think
we
went
through
a
similar
exercise
three
years
ago
when
we
first
started
the
interop,
that's
rosetta,
stone
or
vocabulary
thing,
that's
how
we
end
up
creating
that,
because,
like
people
were
using
jenkins,
zuul
or
github
actions
or
actions,
I
don't
know
when
it
was
great.
But
anyway
you
get
the
point.
I
said
like
what
that
thing
maps
to
what
other
thing
in
this.
So
now,
if
this
reference
arctic
could
be
a
higher
look
of
that
thing,
because
that
document
goes
into
details.
A
D
Now
I
think
the
the
interesting
thing
here
is
that
people
are
going
to
discover
that
very
few
organizations
have
simple
linear
pipelines
and
that
in
many
cases
it's
a
very
complex
multi-iterative
event-driven
process
that
is
almost
impossible
to
diagram,
because
you've
you've
got
things
coming
in
at
you
from
various
different
directions
at
different
cadences
and
at
some
point,
somebody's
trying
to
reconcile
all
of
that
and
make
a
release
out
of
it.
B
D
So
so,
probably
some
good
examples
of
that
are
going
to
come
out
of
the
of
the
supply
chain
work
because
I
think
we've
already
had
a
couple
of
discussions
where
we've
tried
to
break
that
down
into
a
simple
linear
hierarchy
and
identified
that
no.
D
Because
once
you
once
you
go
beyond
the
scope
of
a
single
work
stream,
so
if
you,
if
you've,
if
you've
got
a
product
team
working
on
a
single
feature
or
a
single
customer
set
of
features
within
a
product,
they
can
think
about
things
relatively
linearly
in
that
space.
D
Suddenly
you
get
to
see
that
you
know
it's
pipelines
all
the
way
down,
but
they're
all
working
at
different
paces,
and
therefore
things
are
shifting,
underneath
you
in
in
an
unknown
and
uncontrollable
way
and
you're,
trying
to
slide
your
deliveries
against
all
these
other
deliveries.
D
To
get
things
to
sync
up
at
points
where,
where
you've
got
it's
almost
like
an
eventual
consistency
problem
that
you
have,
you
have
to
reconcile
things
and
pin
them
at
points
in
time,
and
then
they
drift
apart
again
and
once
you
start
to
look
at
the
whole
software
supply
chain
and
and
you
you're
going
from
your
application
stack
down
through
all
your
direct
library
dependencies
to
operating
system
dependencies
and
down
into
the
physical
hardware
in
the
machine,
then
suddenly
you
get
to
see
that
the
whole
picture
of
just
how
much
complexity
there
is.
B
C
C
C
Just
just
following
on
again
from
what
terry
was
saying
about
how
certain
companies
might
be
more
private
on
what
their
pipelines
look
like.
Do
you
foresee
that,
as
an
issue
as
we
try
and
solicit
or
ask
companies
to
like,
do
you
find
that
to
be
a
problem
for
ebay?
You,
don't
you
don't
you
have
this
internal
sort
of
reference
architecture
that
you're
building
out?
Do
you
think
it
will
be
at
all
an
issue
to
share
that
publicly
or
do
you
think
it
will
be
an
issue
for
other
companies
to
do
so.
B
C
D
There's
there's
quite
a
lot
of
sort
of
opportunity
for
virtue
signaling
in
in
in
sharing
this,
because
you
can,
you
can
get
to
make
public
all
all
of
the
hard
work,
that's
going
into
validating
what
you're
doing,
and
you
know
your
your
quality
controls
and
gateways
and
everything
else
and
to
an
extent
apple,
have
started
to
to
make
more
of
that
information
public
at
a
higher
level.
So,
for
example,
they're
they're
always
providing
details
about
their.
You
know,
renewables
and
you
reuse,
work
stuff
like
that.
D
So
I
think
it's
one
of
those
things
where,
like
discussing
your
salary
once
it
pass
passes
a
threshold
where
it's
considered
socially
acceptable,
then
suddenly
it
becomes
the
norm
and
everyone's
talking
about
it.
D
And-
and
I
think
there
is
a
real
need
for
us
to
introduce
that
kind
of
peer
pressure,
because
you
know
I,
I
see
frightening
examples
of
very
very
low
standards
in
producing
commercial
software
on
a
regular
basis
and
people
still
believe
it's
acceptable
for
them
to
ship
code
in
such
a
poor
way,
because
they're
not
seeing
any
peer
pressure
on
them
to
do
any
better.
B
All
right!
Well,
I
think
that's
that's
about
our
time
for
the
day,
thanks
thanks
again
carrie
for
for
coming
by
to
chat
about
this
reference
architecture
stuff,
it's
it's
really
interesting!.
C
Okay,
yeah.
B
And
drop
everyone
have
a
good
rest
of
your
rest
of
your
day.