Continuous Delivery Foundation Technical Oversight Committee, 28 Sep 2021

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From YouTube: CDF TOC Meeting - 2021-09-28

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A

B

C

B

Hey very long time, no see how are you good busy.

B

Yes, is everybody in that same situation, just pretty busy.

D

Yeah it's this.

B

D

Back from locations with full of energy, you know.

B

Jackie, if you're the who cd foundation, I think it's oleg.

A

E

Moment of panic, I was like who's cd foundation.

A

I I'm not sure where it does that it seems to pick up a cookie from my browser, because I'm signed in as myself in the app.

E

uh Yeah, so if you signed in using the browser you have to log out otherwise, um even if you, even if in your web, app or like the desktop app you're signed in as yourself, it automatically will override it. The browser for whatever reason.

A

All right, I'll log out next time, yeah, I was uploading some videos so downloading it uploaded.

C

So oleg is uh not able to make it today and so I'm gonna lead. I don't know if we're gonna wait, maybe a couple more minutes um and see if anyone else joins seems like a packed agenda. That's exciting.

C

I'll just wait another minute or two.

C

All right, I guess we can get started. I didn't know if more people would join um so yeah. It's already recording and everything uh like I said, um oleg is not able to make it so I'm going to leave today.

C

The agenda is here some project lifestyle life cycle updates. I think it was last meeting. We were talking about the proposal to add a sandbox stage and as part of that in general, to summarize, it seemed like um it was unclear whether we needed that, but also in the process of that we found out that there were two different places that disagreed with each other, on what the project life cycles were and oleg sent a pr to remove one of them and update the other to to be more uh canonical and accurate.

C

So that was good, um feel free to you know, read that see if it meets your expectations about what the project life cycle expectations are and if not send a pr or uh we can chat about it uh here or elsewhere or anytime.

C

um We also uh discussed last time uh uh becoming a member of the inclusive naming initiative that was approved last time and the request has been submitted. I don't know what the status is on that or what we'll hear back when, um but that it sounds like oleg has kicked off the the work there.

C

um This week's infrastructure theme it's infrastructure week at cdf toc, um uh the theme is infrastructure, and so I think, there's a lot of topics to talk about um uh the first one here is steve, who I don't see as being here? Steve is not here. No, uh I guess we'll.

B

I can skip to speak a little to infrastructure um so recently, at the board level, um the board reviews the budget every quarter and um just looking to the end of the year. One of the significant things which was over what had been budget for budgeted for this year was just infrastructure costs, um so they agreed to just expand that part um so that we can cover the current projection, but at the same time us that we set up some better processes uh with the project.

B

So there's some more oversight and people aren't just letting costs run away. um We are currently planning the budget for next year and we do want to make sure that any incoming projects you know, can take advantage of infrastructure and there's a way for it all to be managed effectively.

B

So long story short we're just looking to sync with each project to understand their requirements and I think in general what I'd like is a point of contact on the infrastructure management side, so somebody who take responsibility for each project to just work out what's needed and to be able to project growth or efforts that might be needed to to optimize.

B

I have been having some conversations with folks in various projects, so they are some things underway, like I think, with jenkins x, they've done some recent optimization and we might be able to move them into cdf. uh Specifically, uh they moved a lot of their.

B

Kind of the storage to to github, rather than having folks download um direct of the cloud which can incur a lot of costs, and I think when we looked at the spinnaker costs, it was a similar story. A lot of the costs are just coming from folks downloading artifacts direct from the cloud where, if we can move this to github, I think that's an immediate saving.

B

So is anyone here from spinnaker community, if not I'll reach out, but I'd like to initiate just maybe learning from what the jenkins x folks did or in general understanding, if it's possible to do for those projects, because I think that will that will give us an a straightforward win uh and then in general, just having some processes. So folks can come to the toc.

B

This group understands the the general requirements um and can then advocate at the board level or just allocate like we have a certain amount of budgets so that can be allocated across projects and if that needs to increase, then come to the board. And just let us know what you need.

C

um Thanks when, when you, when we talk about infrastructure and cloud costs, are these, can you give me a breakdown of what types of things these include like? These are ci resources I assume and download storage, storage and egress of downloadable art. You know artifacts from releases and things like that. Is there any other uh main large source of costs besides those two things, or is that mainly it.

B

Yeah, those are those are the main things like. We have other project costs, but those are either that they're just relatively smaller, so things like zoom accounts and.

E

B

Like in some cases, there's managed jira services and things like that, but it all a lot of the other stuff gets covered in a package we have from lfit. um So we don't feel that pain.

C

Okay, is uh I like this, um I like the idea of having a regular check-in for how much these projects are are costing and requesting for the for this infrastructure. Is there like a place we can put this? Is this information we don't mind being public? Could we put it on github or do we want this to be sort of docs shared among toc members.

D

That's not necessarily just.

C

A question for you: tracy, I'm just curious what other people.

B

C

Like how transparent do we feel we need to be with this.

B

Yeah, I think it's up to the communities. I know I think in the jenkins community they're pretty happy to share those, or certainly it gets talked around at the infrastructure meetings publicly. um If everybody else is as well, I I think that would be good just to have have a place. We we post those in and track them.

B

Okay, so yeah I'd love to hear from project folks, um if there's any problems with that.

A

um I don't think there would be any problem from protect on site.

A

um Yeah I I would be interested in also understanding what is the current breakdown, of course, in terms of projects from the current spend, because on on tecton's side, we actually would like to add some things to ci, because we wanted to be working with windows and we have our release. Pipelines are a bit slow with the machines that we are using now, um so we were planning on maybe upgrading them if calls permitting but yeah.

A

It would be under good to understand um what what what is the current spend from tecton, for instance, and maybe if there is a way we can yeah reorganize things like if we move if we move the storage uh out of the cloud to github, for instance, but we then have some space for maybe having windows, multiple uh ci things like that.

B

Yeah now I think it's worth running through that exercise, but also having people compare notes, because I think some of these things have been tackled in other communities or there's efficiencies of uh having multiple people who are doing the same thing and can share clusters um and I'd also, I think I only see half the picture like, I believe, a lot of projects. Some of the stuff is running in cdf, but there's still stuff running.

B

You know cloud using google and netflix and just great to understand have a better picture, and just I know all the cloud billing is is pretty crazy, but if we can start to unravel it, it helps us stay on top of it.

C

Yeah, I think it can also get confusing. I don't know if this, if this is an issue with any of our projects, but I have experienced difficulty with other projects where some companies uh run their want to run their own ci.

C

For you know if they're downstreaming, tecton or something or downstreaming uh jenkins, they want to run their own ci on that to make sure that their that their packaging of it works, but that ci should you know, only benefits them, and so they shouldn't that cost shouldn't incur up to cdf, if, especially, if jenkins is already doing their own as an example in the as a complete example, especially if the upstream project is already doing their own ci, um I don't know again. I don't know if that's a problem here, but.

B

Yeah and maybe even with the stuff, we could go as far as just being really transparent about it and even writing about some of the changes. Some of the costs, I think it's becoming a big area. Everyone cares about just the whole as they call it finopso uh financial management. um So maybe we can just take some leadership and just be really open about it and um discuss the trade-offs and how things are structured.

C

Yeah, even aside from it being, I think, a good. uh You know thing to demonstrate our thought, leadership or whatever. I think it would also just be personally interesting to me to see how these projects, how, like I know how techton ci works, but I don't have any idea how you know: ortelius's, ci, works or or anything else.

A

C

I'm just generally curious about it and especially because it is so related to our you know, projects we are producing that it's. You know interesting to me to um uh see how people are using it in real life. um Do we have?

C

Can we like go through the projects and try to I mean I don't know if we have enough people here are the right people here to actually go through and talk about each one of those things, but could we um schedule an infrastructure week in the future where we, where we have like each project, to do a little like three slide demonstration of of where their costs come from, what they're doing with it etc?

C

And then we could.

A

We could publish.

C

This right, like that, doesn't even need to be like just for toc. It could be for anybody.

B

I love that idea might be more than a week might mean an infrastructure.

C

B

But yeah just getting everyone together to focus on it and- and I know like typically the jenkins community gets together and does that uh around four stem. So uh but we we could do that now and I'm due to just get a breakdown for the board. So I may be able to just start off with covering over the last 12 months. What we've covered for tech, john spinnaker and jenkins.

C

When you say uh that jenkins x, moved storage to github, does that mean that they were publishing like release artifacts on google cloud storage or s3 or or whatever.

A

And then github.

E

C

And those are free.

B

Correct, I think james rolling had a blog post or just a tweet about it.

E

B

But yes, that's my understanding.

C

Nice, um I don't know, I mean the the agenda is pretty full, but I don't know if people have more to talk about on this topic, or this is just an iou for future future deep dives on how ci works and how cost breakdowns and etcetera.

C

Sounds like an iou.

C

um The last item here is about sig events. Andre, do you want to talk about sick events.

A

um Yes, thanks jason. So uh during the last six events meeting, we finally came up with a name for the protocol, which maybe, unsurprisingly, is city events, um and so we set up a github organization because we wanted to make this as a own project, not necessarily tied to the seat but standing uh on its own and in under that or we wanted to post them the spec as the case and more um so yeah. The question was: um what can we can? What can the cdf help us with um so?

A

Can we get some help with branding legal like checking for trademarks or designing locals if you need and also our current binding as with cloud events and events, kind of mondays that you need to have a reverse dns name? That is a valid name in the beginning of the message types.

A

So I think it would make sense to own a dns name, and then we could use that also to publish maybe a website with a spec and so forth, but also that costs, uh so it needs to be registered by someone and paid by someone um and yeah. So we wanted to to ask whether there is funding for uh the sikh for this kind of things or or not, and also in future.

A

We probably would make sense for the city events project to apply as a project within the cdf, but it is not yet so I don't know if it then would be eligible for funding through being kind of created by this by the sea or yeah just wanted to.

A

Ask what people think about this.

B

A

B

C

B

I'll keep trying to talk. Sorry, um just very quickly. I I think it's yeah, it's pretty cool just because it is uh unusual. It's a sink birthing, a project which is which is fun. I I'd love to figure out how we can help, but yeah I'd love. Let's hear from the rest of the toc.

D

Yeah, so one of the things that we want to make sure that we don't end up doing is double work where we go and get like a dns name on our own and then we have to go and do the transfer over to the linux foundation. So um you know, even though we're not a uh an official project yet um incubating project, but that's the direction that we're we're, headed uh that we want to try to minimize.

D

You know the the work in the long and since our long-term goal is to become uh incubating project for events.

C

I think I think like whether or not it becomes a project. I think it should, but whether or not it becomes a project. I think it makes sense for cdf to get the domain because it is a cdf sig right like whether or not it ever becomes a project. I do support that, but whether or not it ever becomes a project. I don't think anybody anybody, nobody else should go and get that domain. Cdf should get the domain um whatever it is. I noticed that cd.events is parked and available for sale for an undisclosed price.

C

I don't know if that is something people are interested in, but cd.events would be, would mirror cd that foundation pretty well.

D

We did some looking at at that and it's pretty vague on because you could go, do different lookups on cd events and different um providers and they.

A

D

It's available, some of them uh like, I believe it's icann shows that it's available. If you go look at somebody else that another authority that it's unavailable. So that's it's a little weird for that. One.

A

You know um yeah, we also discussed possibly events.cd, um because basically, when you get the message type in in cloud events, it should be reversed and then it will become cd.events dot, artifacts dot, send the message type. For instance, um I, like that um ncds like congo, I think, but they they are available um globally. Those those domains, but also for events. Ocd, is not entirely clear. Some some provider says it's available, some say contact support some say it's not available.

A

B

Yeah, let me go and ask around and see what we can find out on getting some of those locations. I think logo is fine, like we can start moving forward with that uh and I think yeah even any sake here. If I know some six have designed their own logos, but if sigs want to have official artwork, uh I think that should be fine to to cover um andrea yeah. Maybe we can have that follow-up sink. I keep promising and just go through some of those is that yourself, andrea and steve yep.

B

Can I treat you as de facto leads for now.

D

B

But yeah pretty exciting.

C

Yeah yeah yeah, uh uh like I said, I think I think it definitely makes sense as an incubating project whenever you want to propose it, um especially if it's going to have its own, like github organization and its own branding and its own, uh going back to previous topics. It will, I assume, at some point, have some ci infrastructure and some storage infrastructure and and have some costs, and it makes sense to have it uh alongside spinnaker and jenkins and techton and shipwright heads as projects at that point.

C

um But I think we can talk about it. Whenever the proposal comes up. um Do I think, I think, uh with cd events, do we? I think we need to be careful that we don't make. It seem like this is only for cdf projects, or this is somehow only scoped to interoperability between cdf projects.

C

But I assume that's something you're already taking into account and thinking about.

D

Yeah there's a crossover work that we're doing with like uh with kept in and argo, um so those are cncf projects so.

D

We're not the plan is not to be just a cd foundation.

C

C

All right does anyone have anything else they want to discuss about sig events, cd events.

C

All right anything else uh related to infrastructure or etc.

C

Otherwise we could wrap up early.

A

Yeah, just just paste it in there the kind of voting poll that we did for the name. um We also consider something like life cycle events, to give it like a broader um kind of idea, um but yeah at the end. I think city events one. Maybe it feels like simpler and more catchy so, but definitely in the documentation. We want to make clear that this is over the entire life cycle of software.

B

Yeah, congratulations naming is hard and there's no good names and.

A

You'll get criticized.

B

One way or another, but it's good, to have a decision and move forward.

C

You've done the hardest thing in computer in computer science. You've done it.

A

It took us a few months.

C

Whatever you did it, don't worry, yeah project's done, wrap it up. We came up with a name. That's all you need right. That's been my experience with parenting as well. You give them a name and then you're done yeah gold stars for everybody.

C

All right uh on that note, I think unless anybody has any late-breaking items, I'm going to call it early.

D

Sounds good to me sounds.

C

B

C

Have a good one, everybody bye all right.