Continuous Delivery Foundation Technical Oversight Committee, 11 Apr 2023

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From YouTube: TOC Meeting - April 11, 2023

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A

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C

Mark hi, how you doing fine? How are you Steve, I'm.

B

Doing well Andrea, how are you nice to see you great.

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C

Well, thanks actually Andrea I have a request pronounce your last name for me.

C

Wait tell me: okay, I'm, just trying to be sure I get the the emphasis on the right place. Great. Thank you. Sofrito yeah.

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Nice, thank you.

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But I'm impressed complimenting.

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One more minute and get started.

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Don't forget to sign yourself in in the main, but.

B

It's free past, probably a good time to to get started. Thank you so welcome everyone, and today is April 11th and my name is Andrea Frito I work for IBM, so we have a exciting agenda today, so we'll have a project update from Jenkins. So thanks Mark for preparing that just a couple of item I wanted to cover before we get into the presentation.

B

um Yeah so first things action items from last meeting just wanted to remind the.

B

Email Thread about TSC sponsors for the different special interest groups.

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So if anyone is interested in sponsoring one of the existing special interest group, please reply to that email or reach out to me.

B

Next is TSC elections.

B

B

Party you wanted to cover this.

F

Yeah I can start hi everyone, so, as you might have seen, Michelle has been sending announcements on mail list as a select channels about the uh uh part of the end user representatives for Toc.

F

As you see, the term represents these terms, expire, May, 1st 2023 so end of this month, and currently Emil black mark from X-Men Justin runs from eBay are the end user Representatives and the nomination pairs start on April 7th and we'll have the nomination periods open until April 21st. So if you know someone who could come and contribute even on this representative technology, please reach out and encourage those people to you know, put up their candidacies and we get a good number of candidates. There.

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F

Then we can have the voting period between April, 22nd and April 21st 31st. Just to add to that yeah.

C

Mark, so is it okay for to nominate someone else, or does it have to be a self-nomination they're, just I fear there may be people who don't realize that they don't have to be a part of the a part of the CDF in order to be an end user representative, exactly.

F

Like if you open the form uh Andrea that link nominate here Mark, you can nominate others. That is totally perfect, but it's important to get them. You know accept their nomination before you nominate those people and we have a question there. If you are nominating someone else, have you confirmed they're interested to nominee right?

F

Otherwise the person may not know he or she has been nominated, so yeah reach out to anyone from any other organizations and either that person can donate themselves or you can donate them on their behalf, and just to add to that, like we don't have term limits for the TOC members at the moment in the election process. So it is perfectly fine for England Justin to you know, stop their candidacies as well to rerun or the you know, end user seats.

F

So yeah the timeline is there at least reach out to fellow community members and late? That's why we were looking at what uh other elections we have approaching, and we found that the project representative elections are also coming up. As you can see there, the current Representatives terms expire, June 30th.

F

You might think, like we start talking about this early, but if you put weeks there, we are pretty close to actually king of all the election process, because the difference between project representatives and end is represented is for example, the first election process actually happens within the projects, and projects may need to talk about this thing within their techno site communities or gardening ports to nominate someone to represent their communities.

F

That's why we start to have this conversation here, because the election process is unfortunate, not clearly documented, like it doesn't say like what process we should follow like, as we put here the election timeline, it's actually not documented in our process, so we want the current process as we go along with this. You know election timeline and the other things I want to highlight here. The last time we had project Representatives elected I think we had either five or six projects or four seats.

F

Now I have nine projects for four seats, and that requires us to. You know, clarify the process a bit further because like who should be voting for those people. How many nominees per project should we have within the process like? Is it only one or two is okay per project, because some projects might prefer to nominate two people, and then you need to take that in the consideration and document that as well the other things which I just mentioned during the end user representatives, there is no term limits, documented like to be fair.

F

With the you know, people representing their projects you may want to introduce some Terminus like a person, can only represent a project two terms in a row. Kind of so these are all questions to take. North Side commits, so we can now settle on a process.

F

That's all I want to bring to your attention.

B

Thanks thanks for bringing this up for tea and yeah, um also to all the project representative.

B

John joined the meeting today, so it's it's good to know that this is uh this coming, so we can start preparing. You know, selecting a candidate for their projects.

B

um Yeah, we should definitely follow up on these and try to to amend this lack of documentation. I was wondering if 81x comments or ideas, sorry, yeah ml.

G

Yeah a comment there so did I get it correctly, then that it's only four seats for Price representatives in the TOC, from June or from July on them. Today we are with I mean there. Is parties now have one representative in the in the list of participants there in the top of this minutes, but that is about to change them. After these elections or.

F

G

Guess is that we will I mean you see. My name is in both those sections now and I guess shouldn't be them I. Think the.

F

Project Representatives is different than POC members like project Representatives. We can have one per project, but they are not voting matters but the TOC elections, the topic. That means like four seats that are assigned to projects that is coming up.

G

F

Like uh Andrea, if you go to Toc GitHub uh readme file, yes for.

B

Representatives yeah, but it's just opening it, so you can see here with projects it like you, then myself, all against Steve your elected project, seats for screwdriver, taking Jenkins and ortalius respectively, and then we have the two end user seats and they elected governing board seats.

B

And then we have the EOC contributors group, and everyone who is a project representative is part of the Toc contributors, but those are not TSC voting members in the sense that if we do vote on something I mean, of course, everyone can express their opinion and their non-binding both, but the only binding votes are those from the TOC members, not those from the TOC contributors.

G

So is it so then, what yeah that expensive?

G

Now, since you Andrea or the chair of the COC now and I, guess we, we will not kick you out as a project seat for for oh so this will take it on right. But if tecton will show someone else now for the next period Then you would not be there but I guess we can't seek you out as a chair or how is that government yeah.

B

Yeah, that's a very good question. So if I was not elected for any project seat, um yeah I would not be able to be chair of the TLC any longer. So someone else would have to be appointed to that role.

G

Should we have something written about that I mean if, if so, then we need to re-elect the chair, of course, after that.

D

Project selection.

H

And I thought: after after every election, we would go through and uh uh re-elect um the chairperson and and the other positions that we have, but I don't know if that's documented but I believe that's what we've done in the past.

F

I think what we did in the past if I remember correctly, the talk chairs were elected based on term nuts based on the election timeline like I, think previously, kosuke and danoran and Olek. They were folk chairs and either they stepped on those hands or their term expired, but that wasn't connected to elections.

F

And in the charter, it doesn't say it has to happen after elections. It just says that you'll see Alex, achieved oversee meetings and so on which we are working on amending to introduce co-chair close there, but yeah. The new Charter will not played that the charter elections are connected to POC elections.

B

Okay, the charter reports.

F

And this sentence is being unended using Tracy's uh proposal in the TOC repo, so this is like currently on board approval.

B

Right to include the deputy yeah.

F

I think, let me find that sure.

F

I just put it on chat.

B

F

Oh yeah, it's entire locked to see to decide trying to run to see elections.

D

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B

And who will also serve on the as it is.

B

I always assume so, but I'm not sure if it's explicitly written down.

D

It makes sense, too believe that it's simply effective.

B

Okay, so do we.

B

So we need to amend these I think it's right right now, it's it's open for the interpretation, whether we need to rerun elections or not.

H

I I think it's not going to hurt if we amend it, um you know the more clear we can make it on a documented side, it'll be easier for people to follow down the road.

A

F

I just put the exact Clause from the charter. There Andrea it's uh after legal review, it's been update to this and it says two-year term and so on.

F

So I I think the uh the link generally legal, doesn't you know, uh put so strict things there to give. The committee is a bit Freedom like, as it says there, the TRC May first Implement term limits and so on. So it's again it's a flexibility for uh such committees.

F

It could very well be a policy adopted by TLC that doesn't conflict with the charter.

B

Okay, um any thoughts from people what people think should be rerun elections after so the chair election after the other member selection.

E

I think that the we should have the chair position be two years. Unless the person who's running his chair doesn't get reelected and then we would have to have a an election for the chair, an internal election for the chair, I, don't think we have to specify it actually I think it's kind of obvious. If the chair doesn't get re-elected to the board, then we would they would we would, as you said before, we would have to uh nominate a new chair and a new co-chair.

E

I think that's so I think we should leave it as it is.

G

The only reason for re-electing is that then, that person will will not stay in the DLC. For some reason, anymore, don't be happy, but right. If so, if, if that person stays done, we don't need to read like just for the sake of it. I think right.

E

I think we should leave the chair for the two-year-old, because you know I think all these rules should be two years. It takes a while to get things done, um but if the person doesn't get reelected, then it's obvious. We have to nominate a new chair and I and I think that's just common. Just follow common sense, but we can say the chair, Deputy chair, will have a two-year term.

E

And that we can end uh if the TOC chair is not re-elected, no uh a new chair will be nominated.

B

F

But before we close the topic like uh a concrete action, we can perhaps go and update the election process in Foundation report and add all the TOC members as the viewers. So you can see the word link there, which we can refer back to Charter as well and add chair election start too, because it's I don't think it's documented there. There is only one sentence for project representatives and so on in the election process document.

I

I was just curious what other tocs do in this situation and um I'm gonna post a link here just to like what cncf has, and they just have a section um regarding vacancies at the bottom of that link.

I

I, don't know if that's helpful, but it's an idea.

B

Right so it means that in it, if I read this right, let's say that the chair is not to be like to the TOC, then um one year in the term, so there will be a new election and the new person will do the remaining year of the original term. If I read this right.

J

I mean frankly, I would hope that the vice chair would be able to step into that, so we wouldn't have to deal with um after election. You know, I know, there's concern about um ramp and education and you know being effective, uh but remember that's why we're creating this Vice chair position.

E

And I I'm sure they would be able to for the interim.

E

So I I think that it should just if you're going to make a note on that you should just say uh not if they're not re-elected, if they leave the board. For any reason, if somebody just may go, I'm done with this I need to I'm out I'm.

J

E

Got a brand new baby on a brand new job. I can't do this right, I'm.

J

Gonna go travel through the American southwest exactly.

E

J

E

Just listed as if the T, if the TOC, chair or or co-chair, leaves the award for any reason, um a new nomination, a new one will be nominated yeah.

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D

Social, the term be tied to the current Toc system, so I know the new Toc is selected. It automatically forces chair Cod share, so it's not like. If, if you leave today, you will get the entire one year or to your term. It's still limited by the original person whom we are replacing Stone.

J

Hey farty does this support you I mean at the end of the day. You know these boards are are here to support. You know, executive director staff, um certainly we're here to support the projects. Is this doing what you need for for you to be successful?

J

Is this causing problems for you, or is this solving problems for you.

F

I think like mattress, that makes out of sense also, that is what is followed by most soft comedies I, took part in or followed like they like. These positions need to be stable. You know we can't re-run elections every time we run the POC member elections, because the other thing, the other thing we we discussed last year and a few times like we want to have the staggered elections, so not entire TSC is changing.

F

So if we say that your C chair term should be connect election, but which term, because, like end users, Representatives will change now and they will change again next year. If they stay with one year to be, we run talk, share election again or the board seats. They will change next year. Should they run election I.

F

Think as long as the top chair is within the TLC I think the most sensible way to have a term for the chair for two years and if the person for some reason leaves Toc either by not re-running elections or for other reasons, then it makes sense to run the election, but otherwise the Jews will not have any stability. When it comes to it, is, you know, creating the agendas working with roadmap, herding, cats and so on.

J

And I could say getting real lumpy if we say okay. Well, you know somebody was on the TOC for six months.

J

um They leave we get an election, and then we do a two-year term for them so finishing out. The term allows you to maintain the staggered nature of these positions. So that's that's the value in it and in in like okay, if you're filling somebody that is left prior to their term being uh uh you're filling that term, whether it's you know a a year or 364 days or one day, I'm sure you wouldn't do it for one day, but but the the. What you really need is stability and predictability with elections.

J

The last thing you probably need is to be running elections willy-nilly, all the time, yeah, okay, all right, gotcha and.

F

Like the main point here is like we need to document these things, then everyone knows like rules of the game. You know, of course, yeah really good yeah, really good feedback here, but, as I mentioned like we can go and update the election process, I think these things and then we can all real the process there and clarify it further because, like Charter, wasn't that clear either and the amended Charter based on discussion. So it's always good to have these discussions about live in meetings and on Budapest, okay,.

J

Good yeah I, just you know, with boards um I'm always gonna. Err on the side of is the board supporting leadership.

J

um You know uh company board, supporting a CEO. uh um You know Toc supporting the projects in you, the the governing board supporting you. You know, I I, believe that at the end of the day you know we can certainly, as as uh the TOC board or governing board or whomever we can certainly seek to solve our problems or problems that we perceive, but I would hope that we would err on the side of solving the Ed and the projects. Problems. I would hope. I would hope that would be our Drive.

J

Now I'm going to get off my soapbox, sorry.

J

It's been a lot of time with boards. I don't know if you noticed that.

B

Okay, so thanks everyone for the input on this uh sounds like we should probably as fatty said document this better.

B

um Anyone wants to take an action to put together a draft of amendment that we might want to do here.

E

I would but I've got too much to do for cdcon right now.

E

Shouldn't take long.

B

F

Yeah I can take the action we'll others. Once we have the draft there.

B

Thanks a lot buddy.

F

But yeah uh last point to add: please let your communities know the project. Representative election process will start probably beginning of May sponsoring all those two weeks, two weeks it adds up to eight weeks or something which gives us May and June to run that process.

C

So to to clarify what I'm reading from Andrea, that means that the Jenkins project, for instance, should consider. Is it time to switch from having Oleg as our representative to someone else, and each project gets the same same question open to them.

F

I would not say replacing a certain representative, but thinking of nominating either same person or new person ah got it okay, because we don't have. We don't have limits documented in the charter or in the policy. So that is one of the things you can add as a policy I understood. Thank you. Yeah.

B

Yeah also, since we have nine projects and four seats, there's no guarantee per se that any specific project will have a seat or voting seat right.

C

It is that the nominations are to fill four positions and the four positions will be filled from from the the nominated pool. Thank you. Good clarity.

B

um Okay, um yeah thanks uh the discussion on this.

B

um If there's nothing else on this topic, I briefly wanted to discuss the upcoming CD con. We have a TSC panel scheduled there, so the idea is that the title of the parallel is meet the TOC, the city of Toc and eight.

B

So we submitted this with Melissa and Robert already expressed interest in participating. So thanks for that, hey.

J

I'll, be there already I'll swing.

A

J

A

E

Yeah, do we know how long that is.

B

E

B

E

Yeah, so we probably should have four, but no more than four of us up there. Otherwise, nobody! You don't have enough time to talk.

B

That's at her point, I, don't know how many of us will be in Vancouver actually um but yeah. Those who are there I think it would be nice to.

E

B

E

That do you know what time is the uh the panel.

B

E

So what we should do, then, is: we should have four of us be on the panel and then everybody else, who's a Toc member head over to the CDF uh booth and in the panel invite people over to the booth to chat with the entire Toc board.

J

We are I love, it any record any opportunity for me to talk to people and say hi and tell my stupid stories. I am down Tracy.

E

Okay, good uh Fati: do you have that Tandy that you might be able to share us uh with the uh the booth, because we're really lacking um volunteers on the booth, I? Don't have it well. Maybe I do yes,.

F

All right, I think I have just.

E

I just opened it so it should come up here. It is yeah.

F

Put the link to checks as well yeah, please sign up as Tracy and Steve I see you signed up thanks a lot for that. Yes,.

E

So it- and we also have some.

J

It's now the ortillas booth rad.

J

That's great thank.

E

You so if you go to the first tab, the project demo, we only have three demos. Right now we have shipwright uh Jenkins tecton. Oh, we should have artillius in there. I thought I put yeah I put artillius on May 9th, oh I. Should you can put yourself on more than one day we have shipwright Jenkins tecton. We have three tecton one artillius and one ship right and one and two Jenkins.

E

um We probably need to get that filled up. It'd be nice to have something happening, the whole time so from three o'clock to 5, 30 on and 11 30 to uh three o'clock. So if you're out of project and you're willing to do a demo.

A

E

Are you going to be there yeah I assume you are so yes.

B

Yes, I'm gonna, be there um I gotta, detect on one but I plan on adding a CD Advanced one as well. Yeah.

E

Absolutely and um there's some talk around getting that white paper, updated um I'm, gonna I'm, going to look to see what documentation we have around uh testing events and add the testing events to the white paper and I'm going to try to get that done today. So we can get a new version of the white paper out or the booth.

B

Yeah we we do have also new incident events um that would be great to to.

E

It if it's all out there in the vocabulary uh report.

A

E

All right I will update it from there then, and.

A

Then, if you go.

E

To the CDF Booth schedule we have from 11 to basically closing so I would say um what time the it's at one o'clock our panel.

E

The TOC panels at one and.

B

What is 12 12 10.

E

12 10 on Monday or Tuesday.

B

E

Well, why don't we say from four o'clock to uh 4 15 um Toc members.

J

Is that where's the link for that I'm? Sorry.

E

It's in the it's in the chat and then it's if you go down to the bottom, you'll see that there's two there's there's a tab.

J

That's a CDF Booth schedule: I got it I got it. Thank you. So much um I never turned down a good Booth crawl foreign.

D

J

I, add myself to your stuff.

E

Yeah yeah, as many people as need to be in the booth, can be so I just took Steve and I out as the primary people and put from four to four fifteen. The TOC members should go there.

A

E

500 minutes.

A

E

You can stay as long as you want I think the goal was to make this easy for everybody to volunteer.

J

Our store is no longer than 15 minutes.

A

E

Exactly I get an hour block, oh be there. If you come come with four and hang out, hang out.

J

Oh yeah absolutely look gang if you just um you know, I think as a good rule of thumb, if you're just hanging out a CD con, this booth should be your base of operations.

E

J

At the very least post up in one of the you know, high top tables or couches around there and you know be close, don't go hide in down a hallway away from the booth come on. People want to meet you.

E

So I'm putting on here for all the TOC members to be at the at the CDF Booth from at four o'clock on May 9th and if in the panel uh we could close with letting know that everybody all the TOC members are going to be hanging out at the booth at four o'clock. If jdb wants to come talk, that would be great.

K

Hey Tracy I've got a question um on that sheet. You were just showing uh I saw that there was a Project's demo theater schedule as.

E

Well, yes, it's on one of the other tabs.

K

Yeah I saw there's a project Summit schedule as well. What's the difference between the two because we signed up um and we were thinking this was the demo sheet here um and we signed up for a Spinnaker.

E

I, don't know what that is. Yeah.

F

Demo, theater is the new thing that will be located in the sponsor portal or whatever it's on in the foyer, so the projects will have a chance to give 15 minutes talks about their projects like inviting people take part in use. Their projects contribute to their projects kind of sales pitch for your project, so that is 15 minutes slots and the project from its schedule is like one and a half hour slots during breaks and lunch, and so on. So multiple people could go to rooms and discuss their projects roadmaps and so on.

F

So it's like. There are two different types of things: projects could visualize well.

E

I would so we can sign up, so the artillius team could sign up for uh project Summit on one of these in one of these rooms. Oh nice, okay,.

F

As you see there, they are either early in the morning or during lunch time or in the evening. Second, pay.

A

K

Also, are we gonna get any feedback on the um slots slot availability here.

F

So you can sign up for all the open schools and then uh you need to go to the you know to sign up for Which slot and see like if a project has too many slots signed up. We may want to take one of those laws and give to other projects who is not signed up yet yeah presentation.

C

So so Fati just to be sure to reiterate Tracy's question. It would be okay if the Jenkins project asked for one of those slots on the summit schedule.

F

um Yeah exactly okay, so you'll see like saying.

C

Okay, we'd like to squeeze into that 12 to 1 30 on Monday in room, one that would be okay and I, could then encourage people, Alex, Brandis and others to come, join us there. Okay, great thank.

F

E

F

E

It would be really good to have the CD events in one of these slots.

A

E

And try to get other projects to come and talk about events. I, don't know if that's possible.

B

um Yeah so we're.

B

Sorry, thank you.

E

Yeah I can yeah take that 12 to 1 30 on the 8th.

B

E

And maybe, if there's a uh way that we could connect to all the any of the projects out there to ask them to come in and chat with us around about events.

F

H

F

Like a really good point, Chase, because since this is people from our golf locks and other projects that as well, so if you sign up for your projects in the for example schedule, you may have a chance to have those people joining your Summits and any conversations. I, don't see the events or other topics, yeah.

E

That's why I was hoping that maybe we could do get it somehow advertised for you know, I, don't know if I know we have the project people in the projects for the CDF, but I don't think we have cncf project emails. How do we reach out to these people.

F

I can I can put your uh of your with those github's projects Representatives at least the program committee chairs, so they can put you in touch with the maintainers from those projects so Tracy who has who wants to get connected with the answer? I'll.

E

Be happy to do the Outreach on that, for the uh 30 on is that, where you're going to put it.

B

um Sorry, we just love again.

E

um I would do the room. I would do what 12 to 1 30 on me on Monday May, 8th.

B

Yeah we can at least put them.

E

Unless you think we should do it on Tuesday, but I feel like this. If we, if we could get some conversation going earlier than later, would be better.

B

Right, yeah, no well on Tuesday I, planned on being at that time in detected one so right, I mean we could we could do it on CD events, but I would not be able to do to be there. No.

E

I think, if you were to do it, I would just say: switch your tecton and your CD events to do techton on Monday and see the events on Tuesday, but I. Think that doing it sooner would be better.

E

If we can get people in the room and start talking about CD events on the first day, that's better than waiting for the second day.

E

Somehow we have to get a conversation going about them because everybody needs to start getting their heads into it.

B

um Just a time check, um so we have a project presentation scheduled from Mark today and I want to make sure we have enough time for this presentation and questions afterwards. So um I would propose to and close the cdcon topic unless there is anything else to be done and then switch to to the project update. But that's okay.

E

That's one for me.

H

Yeah that works.

B

All right, I'll, stop sharing then.

B

And Mark before is yours, great.

C

Thanks so I've I'm a firm believer in ending on time, so we're going to be very, very crisp here and uh we will end promptly all right, so you should see. Let's see, do you see my Jenkins project update slide?

C

A

Good, yes, okay,.

C

I see head shaking great all right so I've as a matter of structure I'd like for you to interrupt either by raising hands or by asking questions anytime. You have a question during this presentation. Please don't delay to the end. I've tried to put the things.

C

I thought were most useful to the group as a whole earlier in the presentation so that we could have a conversation about questions or problems, or what I'm looking to do is try to share things that I've gathered from our data that might be of use to other CDF projects in terms of how they address their user population and what what we confront? How do we maintain? How do we grow? How do we accelerate? How do we deal with the complexities of Open Source software development?

C

So first view is what the data says about users of Jenkins, and the first piece of the story is on the plus side. On the positive side, the number of Jenkins jobs worldwide across the last 10 years has continued pretty much a linear growth all right. So hey, that's a plus! That's nice right! We're now at over 73 million jobs worldwide defined in Jenkins controllers.

C

Good thing, however, for that plus there's also a minus the minus is that we've actually seen the growth of the controller count. These are the things that orchestrate the work. This is the central component, if you will of Jenkins the growth of that has shown no no detectable growth in terms of statistical bounding in 2022, we had a big spike here in 2023 that we're not sure if it's a one-time, Spike or a real change.

C

But what we see is years of steady growth, some spots where it was hot and others slowed, but in the last 12 months we've not seen significant growth in controller count. We think that's due to viable things like GitHub actions, gitlab CI, Circle, CI, all sorts of other things in the commercial world that are causing fewer Jenkins controllers, fewer new Jenkins controllers to be installed.

C

So we're worried that hey we wait. We like to be growing and right now. This is not hinting at growth.

C

uh Now, on the on the other side, though, we are evolving and the evolution shown here by the Java work that we're doing so Jenkins required Java 8 for many years with a very rigorous, deep long multi-year process we added Java 11., we've now made it so Java 11 is required with Java 11 required we've now added support for Java, 17 and Java 17 support is ramping, Java versions matter in our world in other CDF projects, I suspect.

C

Whatever your base component is matters deeply and you've got to choose between preserve the installed base or admit that I've got to advance because the installed the install base needs to come with me. While we go to the next level of Technology.

C

So what we see is a a user base that continues to use the product, lots and lots of use and still growing use, and they are transitioning with us, but you see the shape of this curve. There are still just under 50 percent of the installation, so they're running Java 8., and so it's it's not this perfect. Everybody upgrades just as soon as the project decides they're ready to upgrade.

C

So that's the user's view, strengths and weaknesses. Yes, we get growing, growing use and we're being adopted, but we stalled the controller growth in 2022.

C

now from the maintainer side. Okay, users, crucial that's what the value is, but without the maintainers the project cannot proceed. So on the maintainer's side, we've got some really cool improvements that have happened in the last 18 months, around user experience around runtime, modernization and dependency. Modernization, Jenkins is 15 plus years old, some of its components are 15 plus years old and that modernization takes some work.

C

So we're deeply grateful for the people at kainos for their work on user experience, improvements for the the the enhancements that have come in various ways of seeing how Jenkins is doing what it does and the people at cloudbees who've done a lot of work on runtime modernization, both very helpful now graphically or data wise there's a again. We just had the positive side. Things were growing on the worrisome size over the course of the last five years, we've seen a 55 reduction in the number of distinct companies that are whose employees are contributing.

C

This is data from the the dev stats project that the Linux Foundation hosts and what you see on the on the graph here is the green line is company contributors where they attribute an individual to a company, and it's unhealthy to have that diminishing on the on the individual side. The reduction is not nearly as dramatic, but there's still been a 31 percent reduction from our Peak five years ago of 950 down to 660.. So the how do we retain developers?

C

How do we retain maintainers is a crucial question for the project, any questions so far: cool, okay, so telling another story, Jenkins features, Jenkins capabilities are predominantly delivered by plugins. There's a large suite of plugins, but plugins also have their own life cycle. Maintainers may get tired, they may say: I'm done with this.

C

I don't need it anymore and they put it up for adoption and what we see over the course of the last three or four years is a steadily increasing number of plug-ins that are up for adoption, including some that are very popular but up for adoption. They don't stop working because they're up for adoption, but you can be confident that plug-ins that are up for adoption are not as actively maintained as others. So again it's a. How do we retain maintainers? What do we do with them?

C

So we've got high visibility improvements and we keep things compatible so that people from 10 years ago can still upgrade, but we've got a decreasing number of individual contributors with more plugins up for adoption and fewer companies that are contributing from their employees. We're finding that we need to ask people and invite them directly.

C

Please ask your company to give you some time to contribute to open source and and that's more direct than we've ever been in the past, telling them that we think they should ask their company to sponsor their work in helping open source a little bit so now. What are we doing? Well, we've got code improvements in UI in updates and in Java versions. All coming and come proceeding very nicely.

C

We've got Outreach initiatives that have been quite successful for us Google summer of code, we're now on our seventh or eighth year in Google summer of code, and it works very very well. We recommend it highly. We've had to on the negative side intentionally disconnect for some from some other Outreach programs, because they weren't as effective for us as we wanted them to be, and because we didn't get the results we hoped for so we'd done two courses of two two years of she code, Africa contributon.

C

In those two years we each year help from five to seven or eight African women get involved for the first time in open source. However, we retained none of them and that's understandable here they are young in their career. Their first focus is making an income not donating their time to an open source project. So we've narrowed to these two Outreach programs. This year, gsoc and hacktoberfest any questions there.

H

C

A

H

One one quick question: are you gonna um pass on Chico's Africa um in the future? It sounds like we.

C

We passed on it this year and we will probably pass on it in the future just because well this year the reason was we did just didn't, have the capacity in our mentors to do the mentoring for she code, Africa and gsoc.

C

What we've realized is that Google summer of code, every project needs a lead mentor and that lead mentor needs to plan to give a day a week to that project for the duration of the project for the 12 plus weeks of the project, and that was more than we could do you doing that, plus she code Africa. So we had to back off.

H

Makes sense, thank you.

C

Yeah well and and I think it's a the principle. That's involved is important there. It is that we really do have finite capacity to do these kinds of things and that finite capacity we want to invest it in the places that give us the most benefit and Google summer of code. We have successfully retained people. The retention rate is not as strong as we'd like, but we have retained them from year to year, with shoe called Africa.

C

Not so much, and it's not that it's their fault, they have a different economic circumstance than than the people in gsoc. Do any other questions and.

B

Yeah I was wondering for Google season of talks and I'll treat you what what your experience has been. If you had any comment on those two yeah.

C

So Google season of docs, we ran one session of it and found that the mentoring work was much heavier weight than we expected. We recruited a a writer that did the writing, but then we we discovered oh wow. This is a difficult project because we need to do an awful lot of interacting with that writer. That's that's no shock looking backwards in time, but we didn't think about it at the time, and so we we intentionally said no, that's not one we're ready to engage in.

C

We get more value out of gstock than we do out of Google season of Docs Andrea. Did that answer your question.

B

Yes, thank you.

C

Yeah and the same the same held for outreachy, it was that we did one session of outrichi and found that the results were were less beneficial to the project than Google summer of code was so. It was a matter of us making making a compromise as to where we invest our our Outreach efforts.

C

So not enough people doing the work is the key story here and not enough mentors for outreach program efforts and, and that's the the very real situation and I think I'd like to stop the presentation here, there's more to it in terms of the people, but we've we've actually run out of time and I think this is a sensible place to stop so I could talk about organization but I. Think better.

C

You can look at the slides, I'll paste, a link to the slides into the notes for the meeting thanks very much for letting me take the time.

J

Mark, what is the biggest challenge that you need help with that this Toc board could jump in get our hands dirty and help you and helps Jenkins. So.

C

Our biggest challenge is is well there. I'd say there are two challenges: let's call them top of funnel and bottom of funnel. Top of funnel challenge is getting more new contributors.

C

Bottom of funnel challenge is getting the high, and the new contributors tend to be relatively lower skills and therefore less able to less able to contribute significant things, but high value we want lots of the bottom of funnel is the that Core group of contributors, where their company funds them right or where they're they are. They are deeply committed professionally to this and they're committed, usually because their company needs them to be committed and finding those people and engaging them is the is the other big challenge for us.

J

um What is Cloud bees take on this, like, for example, I mean what what I'm seeing with those metrics on you know. Controller growth is steady, but jobs are going up. I'm, seeing people that are invested in Jenkins are using it more and more. Okay, that's.

I

J

Tells me um has um you know with cloudbees being able to say: okay? Well, here's our install base, perhaps approaching them these corporate customers and saying you all want to do open source or maybe having the Jenkins project getting access to them. Has that ever been discussed um public private partnership, kind of thing it.

C

Has- and we see we actually see a little bit of that right now in that Fidelity Investments.

A

C

They're putting they're putting work on CD events right and they've, okay, they've allocated two people to work on CD events and that that those two people came right out of fidelity right. They are funded by Fidelity and they're interested in being engaged in terms of the Jenkins project infidelity because it benefits both Fidelity and the Jenkins project, so that kind of hybrid partnership is a is a really healthy thing. Finding those Partnerships is quite difficult right because you've.

A

H

C

We've got to find guided self-interest points right where the company says my company will benefit by doing this and and that's what we keep seeking.

J

um Just what I would recommend is they obviously, with the number of speaking slots that have at cdcon they enjoy chatting they enjoy telling the world of their success, um perhaps finding those folks that are contributing to Jenkins? That are, you know, and to do um you know a presentation either at a conference or online and say look. This is what we're doing this is why we're supporting Jenkins. This is why it's valuable and then maybe using that as a tool for other companies.

J

Well, Fidelity's doing it and perhaps there's you know big fan of spreading fomo um and and just using it as a positive example of this, is why Fidelity? This is what they're doing this is what they're getting out of it. This is perhaps what you could get out of it other company, using it as an example of just saying, hey, do what they're.

C

Doing right right, good, good suggestion. Thank you. Yeah I, like that, the notion that this is not just an ask for donation. This is really a choose to do things that will benefit your organization and and that's the real story there. It's not just donate. It's really choose to do things that will benefit you be.

J

The master of your own destiny right, a promise of Open Source well.

C

Okay, that may be a bit much, but.

J

Okay, I know I'll leave back.

J

Thank you, Mark.

C

Thanks any other, and thanks for being tolerant of the going over I I, that was all that I had if you've got other questions. I am happy to answer them. uh Let me know.

B

Thank you so much Mark for for your presentation uh today and yeah uh I think we are a few minutes of a time no, but we can continue discussion offline uh if there are more questions and also we can take some time next meeting to continue very. We want to continue discussing, but thanks again and thanks everyone great to see uh it's great to see. Everyone today have a good rest of your day. Thanks.

H

Everybody thank.

D