.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 30 Oct 2015

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From YouTube: .NET Core Design Reviews: Misc

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I this meeting, we'll taka a look at the Roslyn APIs for the C# interactive feature.

A

B

God did you join yet I'm trying.

C

Did you just call even bottoms up, but.

B

The screen just shows you a big blurry face.

D

Did I say that Google+ is weird, it is so great all right.

B

So I think we should get started because the recording can edit it in another. First three minutes or just us trying to get Steven to joy, ah see many years.

B

Okay, can you say something cuz, I'm pretty sure you should also be able to hear me. Yes, awesome. It's almost like you should just pretend this was just right from the start. That's that's how it works all right. um Let me know fine like. Is there anything they need look at the AP class, which we just open the email in the store.

A

D

Once you, if you're in.

A

B

I'm, just asking for the last guy so actually is latex for that.

A

Might come on by other.

B

B

Almost elves, if I can project something because the windows 10 logos, not that beautiful. If you have to scale it stare at it for like an hour mmm yep, it's loading here we go alright. So so we decided that we don't want to do command line, because that would be ill defined on uncertain in certain configurations. Yeah.

A

Please kyon cross-legged with reference to these and being there is no real, terrific guy, at least I know, but can you spot it and by the time key features and bank deposit interpreted come on time? So it's difficult for us to recreate what the parser did. No.

B

This one because the shell already expands wild cards, for example. Yes, yes, yes um and then comment on actually busy just try to come up with a model. How we would support that in environments where the actual process would have one command numb, but in the context of the library or the app different command line like scripting, for example,.

A

Yes, like I, think the major concern in the emails that we discussed, but what would a holstered app sure like what who stood up should return in terms of get remodeling now shouldn't return, the host apps, CX healing or shouldn't return once the host has formed the process and the process, exe name, followed by the arguments and percent to that process.

A

Take, for example, let's say Quran was hosting in so we would have something like Quran hello, world blah. Yes,.

D

A

Should the arguments the first argument by colon, followed by hello, dot, exe, followed by yeah I, shouldn't be more like a hello world, followed by that, because that's what I'm really the command line arcs of the process at solution. So.

B

Thing on the image that we try to get to the point we say like our intent is that we essentially say this is whatever the US thinks the command line is, but there were some concerns that would not fly ball for libraries, because no, you have to have a whole specific way to get to whatever you, your contacts, your command arguments are like what is what the songs on this, because I mean my person taken. This is I, would I don't in the complexity of adding a whole specific API is worth it.

B

I would just say it is what they are, the US things, and then you in scripting you.

C

Have to almost be to make an assumption that the r0 is always excellent weather. Is it hosts for poor run or whatever you and then after? That is where they start doing. Their work is what they won't actually get the values up yesterday, I think we get the XE name, and then we get whatever essentially passed to the main entry point which in some ways the host can control that part anyways right.

A

Yes, so so the way we could make the host interact and control this would be so the host always calls at least for now. There is only one entry point into the runtimes: it does execute assembly and then say is oh. This is the process that I want to in twenties are the arguments that I want quality, so this process that and because we create our own main method and basically spawn that assembly on that process. For you.

B

A

B

You're saying like, if you actually host the wrong time itself right, you.

A

Know you could.

C

B

A

Site hosting a PS, yes,.

C

A

Will be hosting it to somebody is doing that work for you anything well.

B

I guess against that. That is one of the things that where the answer would be, it depends right. If you look at the Ross and scripting api's, there's a managed process that just you know it's basically the script interpreter all right and then you inside think there's no managed code, but there's our local managed code. That is run. um You know in the in the actual and say yo via the CSX, which is the script represented road crossing or but you would invoke it on the command line. Csx.

B

You know my script whatever right and then that thing would just have a managed layers, its normal managed executable in that sense, but in that they basically just spin up their scripting api's and you just give execution to the script and then, since they don't host a clr, but they.

A

Have no way of control that part that somebody has to call I see 11 time, post questions.

C

They want to, they could well.

B

Then the answer would be: if you want to do this, and now you have to host or unconscious.

C

Otherwise, command line art is exactly what you're getting in. Maybe yes, if people want something different than that expose their own sort of script level, arms separately, if they want to something yeah.

B

I think the idea was that too much I must be just basically I lower if I managed hosting but you're, not hosting the runtime yourself um I I.

C

B

That's a separate peace I, don't.

C

Think this is what this is, this: a peasant, an enforcement, no.

B

I rearview I'm just saying that that was the concern. Immediate, am fine with taking that stance arm. I just want to be clear that that is the that is the output, but if you have now, if you have Olson scenario, you have to host a renter if.

C

You want to change, what's it, but they are arguer. Then you have any hosting the native side and.

E

If you want to like, for example, Rozzell could like have some, they could have some or down looking for.

E

Basically, they can force you to like use some evident that you find there can be some.

B

True, but you could argue that defeats the purpose of this API, because I mean you can always have your own way to pass arguments right. That.

E

Depends on what your no.

B

I mean, but what I'm saying is that it really like? If you let's say we don't have this API right yeah today, you have a way to get to the arcs. The way you do it is you are in Maine, you get the RX pass to you right, so you already have a way to get to that. The point is that you have this API, so you don't have to be in Maine and you can do it from a library right inside the library.

B

If you're saying well, that's true, except for cases where you know, there's a different semantics. Well, then, call don't call this API and I'm saying that kind of defeats. The purpose of this API is the invariant way to get to what you think. The common arguments are I think it's still the right approach, because I still think it's easier for us. If we say this is a wraparound device, API you get here.

B

What do us thinks you you're running on unless your host a long time and you redefine what OS means for you and I think that's a fair.

A

O-Silk crews.

B

A

Fat understand connection. What would be the r0 in terms of those two that I.

B

Think, like practically speaking, you have to I. Think you have to preserve the invariant that are x0 is never the first commandment argument is basically just whatever makes sense for you AB model to say this is your app. So, for example, they say for was in script. I could imagine that r0 is the fully qualified pass through the script file right.

C

R0 is not controlled by education, it is the host yeah.

A

So that's what that's that's, what I think he divided should be occido, gig posters.

C

To be four run or CSX in that.

B

Case, oh because you're saying they can pass in the remainders, but we would always provide the art. That's right! R0.

D

C

D

C

D

A

You Dustin oxytocin.

D

A

C

What is there is another request, that's just coming in what I think we should consider too was assembly entry point assembly which people can get that information if they really want to so I, wouldn't put that as the entry like I wouldn't put some d low as the r0 in this case for this command.

A

C

Would like this to be something where you could literally take it out and anyone to run it on the command line. Again, if you wanted to I know, it's not always been the case, but it's coming case a lot of kids that make.

B

Sense, like in my kids, like the majority of his kids, that I person use this API on desktop and many other people are the same thing that just want to get the path to the app right. um There.

C

Are many ways to get the faster the app, but it's not this yeah. Yes,.

B

I'm just saying that that's one use kissa people use right. So if you think, if it would change that to not be a bully, quite I'd have to whatever I.

C

B

Most use cases will be for.

C

This by AP I before you're, like a command-line, Marsha, technically PS sinners. That's just sooo scared.

B

In which case you know, I, don't even care whether that path exists right all that here is a cash. I can get to something that reads nice on the command line, so for scripting, for example, it would make sense because it will just give you the name of the script altima, which would actually make sense, and it said how you know if you make an assumption that you can digitally execute this as a passing into the shell.

B

Well, that would fall apart because it can actually execute a script file directly, in which case you're losing actually information right, I, don't know, I I think we have to make a decision on what we want the API to be a team or anything that you can either say. Well, it's whatever the steal, our things and that's by default, the US, unless you overwrite that behavior and then we can say you know how r 0 and the remaining arguments behave. I think.

C

Today, apparently, our gear is always a process and then say your everything past. That is what's pastor, educator. Simply the answers to me: dweeble.

B

Deck is it technically not possible to allow the holes to actually pick table? R0 is so.

A

It is also a good as I said, and that's another you have to give you one colleague. So even today, that is available to you through native code is basically calling to ICL r enzyme question. Tell that you know this would be the command line that is being sent, and out of this, this is going to be the name of the process for the assembly. That needs to involve the main method and have yahoo principles. R0.

C

Is passed to excusable? Yes,.

A

F

Is not for the Kentucky go.

E

C

Controlled ones.

E

Change with this method that changes with the main method, but that's not what this method? Sorry Rick, doesn't this method just like we really go at the OS? Yes,.

A

So put put OSAP I like for Windows implementation, it was pretty much calling in to get from online assets windows API, it gets you the whole command line. Then it has a part of imprinted. It says so these are the rules and going to follow for my parts in logic, and so these will be the strings coming out of it good. So.

D

The thing is it fair to say that.

B

Basically, get comment on. Arques is just a managed wrapper around essentially the USC, the other guests in command line. Yes, that's.

D

What it does today, yes, just I, thought: okay, so.

B

You would basically change that you just call it to the clr Sao. What you think made.

A

You be yes something like that, but if you do that, then we are basically saying who's host somehow is telling us, because host has already done by just.

D

A

Case r0 will become the assembly name. That was invoking. The main method makes.

B

A

I would mean think in that case, I'll OSX, like a cross flag and a Windows implementation with a line, but if we were to give the implementation good command line, Axum like what it has today, which is like you know, equal to the OS and user I feel to it. It would be difficult for us to have across planet really.

C

I saw the cross problem is even easier. I thought we already had the parsing so.

A

It has already passed it for that weight.

C

A

We cannot wait so it has fasted to us and we cannot have the hostname and that time we just have assembly name, and we just have the arguments at least thats. Why I miss fanny so.

C

We couldn't clear that I put our hope. It would be the same.

A

By the time it reaches it reaches the run time. We've already executed, take oil in to execute assembly. So at that time we have the assembly name of the street names I, see.

C

Sure but I thought this is just PM walk into the OS. It doesn't matter with it. I thought we were just saying it all does is call OSAP I. It gives you can excellent.

A

C

But why can't we do the same thing? That's because.

A

There is no other.

C

A

That I know of that gives you the same thing. Ok,.

D

C

Know it just passes it to the starting in the process. Yes,.

A

It basically uses the inventory increment implementation gugak, see.

C

Stephen, you know if there's an API, you can create an EOS on linux, I'd.

E

Sorry to get what specifically the.

C

Argument there.

E

Is not okay, all.

D

E

That's well, you can get information from proc FS about the command line that was used, but.

D

That won't work on systems, besides ones that have professed mounted.

C

Good all right so that that's what stimming it then is a unless we basically have to take what's given to me in and use it some more. Why would we do the same thing on.

B

So, to summarize, oh we will do, is you will on our lot and complementation? Would change people not expose command line? You will expose get comment on arques. Get comment on RX will call into the clr will essentially get whatever the host put in the default. Implementation for the host will be be put in the fully qualified path to the native process. That started the whole thing as r0 and the remaining arguments into art, one and all right and then host can override that behavior and completely control.

B

What r 0 is as well as any other state of Cyprus to get the native 1080 falls. Alright sounds good to me.

B

That was a lonely. Mr. Bannerman, do you think it's over once we communicate this, but we'll see.

D

B

Well, we landed and then we went back because people push back there.

E

Are other API is on.

B

C

The other requests we already they should be independent, API requests like what Smosh once, if you want something else, we should have a separate thing from this. um In fact, I would also probably just push him to put it on C sharp script like phew. That's what this scenario mr. yeah.

B

Is this that before I, it just makes it really hard for libraries like because then that case scripting doesn't help you um alright? So let's talk about, you can see that actually.

D

Just this guy over there.

B

Was the other one right? Yeah all right, I'll favorite topic version information from the US.

B

So it just summarize.

A

B

A

Is basically the same.

B

A

We decided to add them, because the gaining steam has a base called iron time environment, which is tiles all these functionalities, but returns as a string. So they had this request to add this to dr. courses. I know they don't have to have an implementation and they can just implemented on form below and stuff here. So so, and we also had another another requested issue from a developer who said like he wants to know what is the business of the process to load or modules based on whether it's 32 bit or 64 bit so the.

C

Fitness of the process is different than yours architecture, in this case.

A

Yours can be like 64 bit and it can get a little bit ross's. So the implementation for a 64 bit processor is basically just based on in point out and in pointer dot. Size has said, based on the compilation or symbol from for clr, so I think like. That is the best way. Wouldn't.

C

Wouldn't I still also need it. I assume they want to know the fitness of the process, because they want a lot of name native diello or something well wouldn't. I also need to know if it's an arm process I'm.

A

Sorry, I Lewis, so I'm trying to figure out how what.

C

You would make distinction between the two of us versus the process. Well,.

B

Would say: there's the difference between architecture and big. That's right, because I mean when you sicced your instances, you can still on the process. 32 pitch right, I, don't know whether it's possible in armor that it's just amd64, but so that sends you have to differentiate like you know. What do I have to care about right and then I think the other part is, I have to agree, have a bit concerned about naked. Bull is 64 bit process, because if you have multiple architectures like what does it mean my arm mimp require what.

A

Why are you confusing 64 business with copic, even an uncle yeah.

C

Well, you're right: your architecture right now has a text in the 32-bit, 64-bit processors and then arm, which is 32-bit, but there's also gonna, be an arm. 54 you're.

A

C

But you're kind of in coupling the two different like that's, that the information is in the architecture, whether or not a 64-bit or not. The.

E

Process might not yeah.

F

Even if its arm system right.

C

So there might be a notion of them. There's good process architecture and get OS architecture, which is it I would say two different concepts. You want to separate two, but I wouldn't have one is 64-bit only and the other one so good. I.

A

Like, as you said, like a mystical and I'm a 32 bit processor, so you can take it for us architecture and it's gonna say if it's on 64 and then you say: oh, is it a 64-bit process? Then it's gonna see how they both separate good process running on its.

B

Abundance, let's just look at the computer analogy and access, for example, when you say: ok, I no need to decide which we preach native more than one load right. I can either do what you said, which is essentially first ask what the US has. Ok, you are running clearly a 64-bit operating system. Amd64 then I also have to say, but by the process. I.

C

B

64 bit because then I have to go group around 64. I surf I amd64. If you're a 32-bit than I have to look for x86. So now you basically have to switch almost. You have to basically have a state machine right. No.

A

Why once you or anyone amd64 after n, yo queria process and then I ready, pull no.

B

A

I know I said on.

B

But I said um AMD yeah, basically the mg 60 for AMD osx86. Why that's essentially two.

A

B

I'm, saying is that just think of the code, you're, writing right, so I think what best is saying into the next scenario. There's only one thing I want to know, and that is what is the process using I want to have a single switch over the process. I don't want to have to look at the West at all, because it doesn't matter like what I need to load a module into the into the process. So the fact that there is this vow 64 thingy they can isolate the process that I don't get them really care.

B

C

Don't know what we care about those architecture. I almost put OS display string because most less, we have a scenario where people would actually do one time, axon I, don't even think.

B

So, in a sense you could you could I mean if you think of it from a former laboring stem, but you could just say they both returned the same enum and yes, they think they are not completely independent, so the API shape implies you're completely independently or not, but I develop I don't have to understand how they relate. Of course, you cannot.

C

B

A an ARM processor and a 64-bit operating system- probably right, sorry name- is his fault bidding system, although one could argue that if Windows ever comes up of animation system now that he accidentally wow.

C

That's right: a 32-bit processors on supporters, at million yeah.

B

In which case you don't have to repeat that dance well,.

A

How are you describe this process? Architecture, lake? You know that an arm process can be like 32-bit or 64-bit. So oh us get started or.

C

Arm 64 back from the quiz.

A

C

You're gonna switch over that you can pick the right one based on canada in.

B

This easy law, actually thinking about it emulation, is a strong um yeah is it is a very strong indicator that we probably want to have everything contained in one. He knew so we don't have to worry about with emulation happens and no people are broken because they they clearly for putting sis with alicia curry for the process. So you just say: don't boy with the operating system is running in it. What matters is when you process things, do.

C

It doing today have a canary 40 s, architecture, if not I would say we don't even at it yet, because they think that this adds the confusion with people doing.

A

E

One is that environment, oh no, for the high second yeah.

C

There's a secure 64-bit.

E

D

C

Operating system I'm not quite in trouble.

E

There's a foreman opera me.

A

Just enjoys the bigness of process. What.

C

You don't really.

A

Care about you actually.

C

I wonder so: the architecture of the process is what I want to see, not actually the business, but.

D

F

Think it's interesting that you say that you it'll cause more confusion, not to talk about each because back in the day when we were designing this for desktop yeah.

D

F

Say just for herb fighting the process. Fitness would have caused more confusion, because people would be like wait. No, this is returning the fact that I'm 32 bit but I'm on a 64-bit machine, and there were things that matter. That's.

C

Why I want to understand the scenario? Would.

D

F

D

B

Mean I would argue that if it matters, there's probably some leaked abstraction. Some men windows right, because the very very common example is, if I'm running in a 32-bit process on a 64-bit operating system. If I Curie for certain height of the registry, you're.

F

B

They basically lied to me and give me actually write, which is they really try out for you to keep the delusion that you're running 32-bit I think there are probably cases where it matters they're, probably issues leaky abstractions, but whatever you want to call it, but that should not be the mainstream scenario like it because they think you see more semana me because I think the biggest problem is I mean to me. This is the same thing. The first checks right people will get it wrong.

B

They ask for the u.s., is all your 64-bit or they'll into the other thing. Well, it turns out you're, actually money, 32-bit yeah,.

D

F

Definitely saw there so.

C

I would propose is putting OS architecture in the OS displacing for the time being, and only there don't expose a separate architecture.

A

So I can make a 64-bit processor something similar so.

C

Give your console your process, architecture.

A

Yeah, something.

C

About nutrition and.

A

We want to have on 64 anything, you know, because we don't have which.

B

Is meaning launched on 32 I, which is rhenium arm Tom 3203 I.

C

Wouldn't do that you did we put 32 x86, that's a it's an architecture, specification, Oh, fine,.

A

C

D

We should put that as.

E

X, except we can do both value. We.

D

Could I'm not sure it's worth it.

F

A

Don't think you should I, don't.

C

Think we should use it particularly that we have the flexibility in the library to edit one every moment. So you.

B

Say that it'll be edited esco.

B

So I think the thing that I want to talk about is like a bee. Do we really think adding both is worse than just adding one, because I mean if we add both? At the same time, we can provide very strong guidance which ones you should use good night.

A

Now just wait for a scenario: I mean it's a new person I'm.

B

Just thinking like like what happens, if we have a scenario that we didn't anticipate because I mean this is the problem with these api is, it is very hard to get crisps and I outside, because they're, almost always in the I, have to work around something. I have to do something that wasn't designed.

D

C

The way, how do you get the 60? Try the implementation, yeah.

F

This is the name say that OS this OS display name say that architecture earnest of the OS Oh me good at it. Yeah.

C

F

I was gonna, say they need person for them, but look.

C

You're not what we want are so here's another question. I'll get to later.

E

That one just kinda returns like whatever we wanted to that I was display name. Yes,.

A

The name is only gorgeous people, talkin I.

C

Kind of yeah I kind of want it to be other stuff thrown in there. So it's harder to force because I don't want. People are seeing I.

F

C

F

But I'm said that's what I'm worried about is. If we throw last fighter wives asking we throw it in there, then people will just start parsing.

C

You know that people will try to sort of parsing. Is the version I? Don't want that? Oh.

F

Yeah kidding they totally well, yes,.

C

What that's why, when we'll get to them, oh yeah, I.

D

B

Like my problems with these ideas that you always try to kill them, we always had to revive because there was like scenarios for them. That's why I think not giving these api's you force people don't.

C

We have two parallel like there's: one called get OS architecture, one called get process architecture. I think this for the reason yeah. It.

D

C

Also consider maybe get runtime architecture as a post process.

A

C

I'm just looking at the parallelism of the other goods you have here, but I think.

E

Those are the same as the process architecture. It.

C

Is but this is a matter of now just naming across as that rule well,.

B

I, wouldn't call it one time, because that would not be the thing I would be looking for a public way. So.

C

I I was just starting another check there.

B

I would we could actually consider just calling the architecture without qualification say just get architecture, because that's the one you should always use really a little humans.

C

That is that I think there's a bit to them, because I think, yes, plus we can get to the name of that. We can, if we call that even process architecture which I think we might actually want to do well, if it is, it doesn't make sense for us.

F

Are you always going to be calling the wrong? What, if you provide to them, they're gonna think they want to les art detention.

C

So quickly, well, though, they might work when they tested to, which is for the bad part, and if they only tested on the right, OS configuration and they break later, which is the annoying things it.

D

A

C

Yeah, if you're running on the 32-bit process on your 6400 us and everything is working because you call ghetto as architects and then you've deployed to order your clients, machine and they're running 64 about 64 in.

C

What we want to make sure that people are set up for success and not be the wrong thing, is not easy to do, especially.

D

B

Mother I think the biggest column is so there's two arguments right. The first argument is I'll, be creating api's that, basically, that you wanna post format the pinups access right. You would think if you just write me these problems, we have a high chance of being successful. Right. Second problem is ok, let's say they inform the pit of phaidor and you could say: I don't hear their program doesn't work. They will fix it. Everything's fine right. The problem is that that's not what happens? What happens? Is they deploy.

A

B

We change the OS OB version or IEP I to push out an update suddenly to protects it happen to you broke yesterday, stops working tomorrow, yes and thence, never the father's developer. That's always coming back to us. We start.

C

Emailing our one wonders in the now they have a different value.

B

Here some, so that definitely means that the next time you actually a feature we do something please api's you're like well, unfortunately, people CPI's correctly and now we have to.

F

B

I know we have to support it because it's one play and.

F

It's yeah and it's some huge enterprise customer who will pay us lots of money to support it so.

B

I think I think the incred answer is we care for the developer because of their own future acting dead says he can't.

A

Wait to look about it this case. It's not like this, no matter it.

F

Doesn't matter if it's on a million machines- and these are machines- and it's some big customer Morgan Stanley saying we don't want to fix our appt- go fix your stuff and we'll pay you a million dollars to do it. I will do ends.

A

No, but that's a different story and.

B

Let me tell you what it's a different story: if you compile on your box, it will either always work on never work because I saw compiler works, but there is a twist to that. If we actually had that interface banette you deploy source on a web server, we had an obsolete attribute in the framework. You can figure your stuff just eat ones as arrows your deployment 45 your website, vernis you deploy on 46. Your website stops work because the compiler can normal, compile your website renders an error.

B

So in a sense, what we care about is not when things break at design time, that's usually considered, say we care about me, break things at runtime, based on behavior and compile as a jelly. Not in that back, that's what it's fine to say. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but I think the for these kind of a B is I. I don't know I mean you could make the argument and saying I get people misuse. Those AP is, do they have a realistic chance?

B

There could ever work in correctly, and you saying well, if I only test.

C

B

Operating system on your in 32-bit operating sister I never see the behavior, but if I deploy to azure but then the thing is, it will not work on day one and it's not that oh, it sure did something later on and broke stick. It will either always work on never ever, but there's really no well.

C

You can imagine I have a 32 would happen in and I've been working on, 32-bit OS as well for a while, and now I start to playing it. My hosting vm becomes a 64-bit like OS, no.

A

Production there's something staging an incorrect. Yes,.

C

A

B

C

Of running app is more difficult, I think.

B

We really care about in terms of support is: does my mom have a case where we version the u.s. of aversion, the framework and that breaks for apps, right and I? Think you were you essentials? Always if I change the running environment like if it redeploy to something else, then then I'm a break, but that's not my mom said I, that's more likely yeah. The app is no designs run in the environment problem which you will always have there's nothing that can protect you from that um and I'm.

C

B

To say, yep give you, if you deploy to production straight dude I, don't care like you're playing with fire like if you deploy to.

C

Staging you, what will always either worker will.

B

Never work it's not like, based on the data of timers, take anything but okay. I. Think that to me the bigger argument is actually the US display name when they start parsing, because that can totally break right like it's, you saw some patch. Now you see key K be somewhere in the string. It isn't expecting boom all the whole thing explodes so I know we don't want to expose version. But what happens when seems like a number of people start pressing?

B

Then you can say it change the string randomly, but that doesn't change the fact that you bring people in.

C

Know what up happening is every one of our libraries will have a hard credit value. That's what's gonna happen, I mean people who were taking the penalty on it. It doesn't matter, did they're gonna always have the value. This is going to be the same value over time. That's what does it happen? We serve all we've done in the desktop this.

B

All you same and they asked for this trainer. Yes, it's.

C

Gonna get the same answer back because we're going to display we're gonna, have multiple conditions, this library and eventually I, don't know what we're doing today, but eventually, we'll probably end up having to freeze it. Well,.

B

But isn't that exactly what witnesses for version two yeah so talking to be called a good person, a view as.

C

You get, it are.

B

Those things well, but.

C

Ultimately, even if we lie about it, doesn't matter cuz like week, we're not sure we don't want people making assumptions and if they do they do and if we, at least in the breaking, will just freeze the string and say: oh, we didn't guarantee that this was ever gonna change. Anyways for you well,.

B

By then, what you doing it for people did not need to actually know what they're, when we had another API okay. So.

C

We make them do what we want them to do right now, which is not use this API for that decision, making using some other sort of look up mechanism future no.

B

What I'm saying is that say: use get where's the spending for scrip more for telemetry like where you actually submit data right now we save you, freeze it in time or at some point somebody will say well. This string is known unavailable because it actually doesn't tell me when what would the thing is running on sorry, I mean no introducing a new API that you're.

C

B

To pour it into your telemetry or we'll.

C

Have to figure out what we're doing we may have to question. We may have to produce library that has the real value library that has a fake value. We can play the right one, whichever your app plans, don't.

B

Think it basically we're saying that.

C

We're going to do our best bet effort right now, we're going to try to provide the real thing like useful information and but over time. I have a feeling that it's gonna backfire and we're going to depreciate are.

F

You getting about the value of the string come so.

A

It depends for like four windows: I'm using the 32 version help us. So I'm going to be calling in a series of different statements and I'm gonna say the return string windows, so it all time and then the portion and then autotrader, because that's what the ocean is a see if I know what.

F

I'm, wondering is how easy it will be for windows at a future date to compact quark. The call so like four. So if because the other option is if when somebody does start depending on this particular string being a particular string, we can ask windows to say quark their implementation. So if it's, this app always provide that string.

B

What I don't they're gonna do right? Look if you look, if you call the winter, you know, but they.

F

Can do it / nap.

B

No, no, what I'm saying is what they have done in windows, right.

F

But they do it universally right, not if you're this app. We.

B

Don't know what would they have changed? They say you have to provide a manifest for your app you're saying my app is compiled against 81. If you call the win32 API just say which occurs when I are they just said? What did you compile.

C

Against because.

B

That's the version I, don't.

C

You tell you what.

B

You're running on at any emotion, compile against, and so in that sense they basically just echo what you composite.

F

Yeah I know, but they also have the ability additionally to work where, if, if they determine that, you are a certain app and I, don't think they just use those manifests, but I mean a specific app. They give.

B

You different values, but there was the older version shoot that they used to not right. He.

F

Still use it all the time.

B

Yes, I think that's why the change that I think an aide wants to say yeah.

D

B

Doing this people give people the version where they compiled against because they never light up on your system successfully. They just want to know that you're running at least diversion I tested. Let's face it, the question the dancer and then the edit these api's with us that you conversion shakes always incorrectly. So you can ask that you want in vista or higher, and we just give you 20 vaults, and so I think, from their point of view, I think both of these strategies are essentially trying to get eighty percent of the incorrectly.

C

Are you going to give a real version, number you're going to say 17 18 1.

A

C

Okay, but that's better than 6.3 that whatever okay good.

D

B

Okay, we should have a rule on marketing and says: if you put a virgin hammer in your in your product name, it needs to match the birds number of the product that will be good anyway. um I'm pretty sure many people write with if version equals, 10 or greater I, because this would make sense right, except that you're, not money, Windows 10. So.

A

Again, oh, is this premium on the knocks I, don't have a way to get the distro name and see us like. We have a shell command and can try to conquer, shall command in wood and get output. But if you, if you just use any hyphen e, it will just give you what portions and the rock says it doesn't give the district.

D

First, meaning the current war, another corner so.

C

Right now, I I think.

A

C

Best effort right now, these displays earnings your best effort, let's see what can do and if people will suggest other possible things that make it better. We can do that, but but.

A

I think the be an extreme ones. The specific things like you want to go deep or not.

E

That's possible. They.

F

Just want to display it, though right they don't want.

A

To get a divorce it for disappointing, why do they care biggest quality book? Would you bring your credit here or.

B

Even to the immature you would care, I was wondering so.

A

That is a family called endless beer underscore release, but that is supported only on linux. Distros. That support in the next standard base principles, yeah.

C

I think we can just welcome to that discussion open to some people might have no better ideas across.

A

Part of implementation there yeah yeah.

E

Merrick just answer a question: I I'm, not sure of any better way to do it. There might be something I'm just not aware.

C

Well, I think the general gist is that we document these is. They will change all the time and they were the best effort to kind of give you a sense of what you're running on. That's it. That's that's the idea. He.

A

Was of course it should change, because if someone engineers.

C

A new version of it.

A

Is definitely going to change the existing what's also.

C

Display string will be different even between two runnings. It can be different when we used to make the statement that it, because just because we don't want people thinking to them, I'm.

A

Not sure they understand what could be the scenario where we deal with architects and instead of brass a second nature.

B

Famous last words: well,.

D

B

Don't know that.

D

I didn't fit there.

F

D

F

B

F

B

What you got, but.

F

We've had a hunch that it'll surface the same ease a different.

C

You can imagine for an rose just figuring out like I'm, watching another process and I can try to based on the OS and warning and I might be able to get a different options or some change. I can give.

B

You a comedian error that I was writing into corvex tools uses and we build. We update the the disputed fallout system, pointers on the share and in the MS build process where I'm actually scheduling the task to X or the commandment. That does it. Unfortunately, when you're running in a while see, windows, system32 is not what you think it is, but the problem is the DFS tools are always in that directory. You have to say if you're running 64-bit and then you have to do this. Otherwise you do.

B

That has nothing to do with the OS ever step of the process versions. Only with the operating system.

A

Use case could be made, it'll, be applying tap your heels based on the architecture and they have something like a underscore x86 or x86 underscore 64, and he underscored x64 of them. If you don't, you go, get them load a others corrects in a bit, then you want to go education. It's.

C

Another pivot, I, don't think, there's I, don't know any real good.

D

C

I'm fine with it having a parallel api's here, am.

B

Sorry and summarize, you Moses architecture, so we would leave this enum as it is. What do I.

C

Want to understand whether or not the architecture to general a name I, don't also don't know what namespaces citizen there's a system runtime interop services. Do we have another architecture unum there I know we have one in election, I think.

B

I checked at some point and there was nothing I think the other one was in reflection that included everything you completely p. If I'll be that's.

C

Right, the flex, why I agree that we don't want to use that one just because of the fact that it's I'll specification, those are exactly the values in there. So it's different than this I.

F

Also, don't understand the drawback to go ahead and adding arm 64 like why not just go ahead and have it there, because.

A

C

We even publicly disclosing like.

F

We don't have a good idea. Well, I, know, I, know it's not there yet today, but it's.

B

Removing a delay said we're not talking about I'm 64 on Windows, but we targeting linux that has I'm 64-bit support. So they said in this hilarity repo there was a whole sweep of should be removed, all references to arm 61. They said no because you're running on Linux. So of course you can talk about I. Think part of the reason might.

C

Be that may be armed ships before doesn't even really ever happen. Why would we put it in every employee? Now we have two dead value, this kind of go. Why we do.

F

As opposed to having to think of all the places we need to go at it should, we ever add support for sure.

C

People, if they end up needing you with no request, is here and we'll at it like why the edited in various places whenever he had a break our architecture, it's been after multiple places, that's fun, I.

F

Don't like fam deadly, adding in just because of hers and when this ever gets run without adding that Keenum like own arms.

D

Resume when we.

C

Start running the test for this library on that architecture, it.

D

B

D

B

To see I'll I would almost say it's better to edit because they have to version that like we make our lives for substantial ease, if we don't have to version contract just to add any new media yeah. That's what I you be.

D

Normal this is this.

C

One we're gonna have to it's going to be implemented as a standalone, portable library in amazement, like how was she, how would she ever return arms 64 today, implementation.

D

It's gonna be the other time.

B

You all because you're saying so.

C

We're going to have the version to add implementation to actually return it. So it's fair point.

D

Actually, that's a good point yeah by that.

B

Let me talk about sisterhood connection was something in there. I don't know assistant.

C

Reflection as a processor.

D

Picture a synchrotron process are.

E

Basically, exactly the same in except solar, different vibes, it's.

C

Slightly provides different.

E

C

One the reason: I don't like using these disciplines, tied to a specification, the CLI specification I, which I would prefer not to I, do.

A

Name process, architecture, buddy, yeah,.

C

It's todd zeile desktop as well, which is a motion. Oh my.

B

E

I'll Frank design from such.

D

E

Used a pietà, we.

A

Can rescale it thanks? It.

C

Is it is only, it is really it's only using the reflection appears and fact actually powers. We didn't expose this from their itching powder request, because they do use it in some of the commandments to buy.

B

These are distances to run time, so it's everywhere, but.

D

What that doesn't seem right? That's.

E

Right: okay, because.

C

D

C

Name: I, don't.

E

Know why I think.

B

It's an assembly named.

E

Ian I, don't.

B

Know why you put it there hold it, because we've polly was awesome. Oh, it was an environment. I think and we said we want to have exchanged chef in system run time when hunter extensions.

D

C

I think it's because we expose it in somewhere in front them. I, wouldn't I, don't think I would have put this in system runtime by itself. It has to be.

D

A hanging off assumptions yeah.

B

D

B

Thnkx it anyway so I, don't know I'm fine with keeping the name is I mean it's a bit unfortunate, naming wise, but I don't have a better.

D

George crisp literacy, machine.

C

Architecture, chip architecture.

D

I can't find the Krusty actually ok, so.

B

I said we give architecture as it is, then you.

C

Want its, what did we decide what new fish, but there was a system under observation.

B

I would put a variable is about him information.

C

Let's try to think there's an e.

D

B

Contact is it going by the way.

A

C

Don't you know so this is still all about interrupt, which is one thing.

D

C

D

I, just don't, but.

B

System, runtime dot interrupts.

D

Services, yes, for future reference.

C

To be nice, to put the name stration a contract on unlearn, so the.

D

Baking dish and.

C

This edit, the I.

D

E

Now, that's just the one, that's just one and on this thing right now is lost and are those.

C

Always bought from with uniformity, yeah.

D

E

Sorry, okay, with just like sort of keep know just keeping a heading boot Mitchell down.

C

Here this particular thing was: we always knew that we wanted to add this lease from the beginning. We wanted to add the processor stuff to that yeah. Are you saying? Are there other things? We want to add one to.

E

My listed some stuff below that I thought like in the future like we might want to add something like this. I will.

D

Link the intentions.

A

D

The structure said would be mutilated well,.

E

I was just giving some example the time my head, like maybe I want to know if I sparred, sse2, orale, x2 or something um and it seems like it- would be sort of similar to like these kinds of guys like it.

C

Would but I do think he's.

A

Gonna believe information know.

E

This place and it's their most because there's like tools that you can run that tell you a whole ton of information. I, don't.

A

Know he like hard redstone yeah.

C

There's a lot of our stuff said what I would I would wait until we actually have a use case of sports and.

E

This, what I'm, just wearing like who did added like we probably just throw like another method in here sure.

D

E

Of giving you like I was thinking. Maybe we want like something more like encapsulated like.

C

Uk, it's good. The only thing we can encapsulate that is giving him dictionary of key value pairs back because otherwise, because it's going to be a whole bunch of just lose data, so like otherwise your user into a strong one or we just add sluice information. But no so.

B

C

She's adding another that.

B

May not be such a terrible idea, because if you give people that you a dictionary with key value pairs, you're literally saying locus unstructured data like what you get is what you get I, don't make assumption that the keys president or cases don't make assumption. That pages will never change, because we don't know, there's no strong typing. Yes,.

C

Whether like some of the key things we want strong typing for like we could implement this, the backing is a dictionary to look up the architecture, OS architecture name out of it and process architecture, I mean.

B

I, wouldn't go quite that far for 4 very basic things: you've gotta have to have like okay architecture, but things like you know, distro version, for example. If it you have a debate, if you don't, you have like what. Basically, what you like is. It is the best effort on diagnostic information use, a bag of things you may want to put in your screen data. So I.

C

B

C

At some point, if we get more huge pitchers are going to church. Alright.

B

So the other thing we said is so that this thai name thing originally. We had them on different types to be still care, or do we just put here because I am in table tennis. Originally we wanted to have to display things somewhere else right. They can evacuate information saying I personally think it's over the top. I would just put them here. You think the name implies pretty much as a display name. I mean it's as much as it gets.

B

Yeah people don't read, this is a hint on par sit down, I, don't know what we'll do it.

C

Yeah no I'm not opposed to it I'm just trying to give the main region was trying to segregate the two notions that anything on runtime information would be something I could use a run time to kind of like make decisions. The display name is there, so it's like yeah I, don't we don't want people rate your runtime decisions based on that yeah.

D

C

D

Was supposed to be putting on another type of people.

E

I feel like just putting I know how to see like debug information. It's like a good name. They ones are untimely. Full projects use it anyways. It's.

C

Not going to stop it, it's just allowing us to clearly state like right now, I can't state. This class is now useful used for stuff that you're making runtime decisions because of these things around I won't be able to make that that statement it can make it pretty. I is.

B

C

Deal probably not well, it's just nice to be able to like when everybody starts using your own I said yes run type. Information is what you use for. Making red business is not debug information. Sorry.

D

A

Believe the bus we have tried to put all the debug information and diagnostics and square Slade's. Yes,.

C

That was, we were proposing system diagnostics, debug information wasn't the type and we put stepid stuff they're good. Thank you go easier, I'm, not super strong.

B

We could add a suffix I'm, just go, do not park.

D

C

D

A

Also discover just waiting anyone.

A

C

Ios debug information.

F

Randomly throwing characters just until.

B

Then it would sort of the.

D

F

Let's go the displaying it. I.

C

Was thinking more organized like how he started randomizing that string, haschke I, we could put some random, is poisonous.

D

E

Wish to be like, if string that contains yeah.

C

Don't figure out what powder we using they'll be able to parse? It still doesn't matter.

B

Seema golden sword: what are you doing here? I would like to read the comment for that cute.

F

Only through white space in the middle of the x86, it.

F

Still would figure it out they'd strip, all the way to a sounders right.

C

Do we want to do? Did you call out already information what you're going to put in a display string? All right place was blaming. Did.

B

C

The proposal was it clearly identified what was going to go in there Oh.

A

C

You're gonna put in the display name. Oh they just a name for me, which.

B

Is Lydia what's a.

C

Format of a kind of like.

E

What's the strain yeah.

C

What's a containment so.

A

I thought we do order the central and.

C

We don't want to necessarily bike. Yeah I want to clearly identify saying this is information we're going to try to get to you to the you can lead to know.

A

It's just going to beat the output off your name, my friend, so that is going to give me a Linux. You.

B

Can you give me example and then it's all the trim with the point.

A

A

C

Have 1,000,000.

B

Sorta give me the clue. You have any example: I.

A

B

A

Give it really let.

B

Me know idea with it so I'll be happy with the namespace joint Susan 1720 up service.

C

Name is just fine, I'm still a little unclear about architecture as a name, but I can display name was the other one, but I'm fine putting it on here. We can consider trim going at debug if we wanted to, but.

E

Cpu architecture I think technically it's like a parent. I right what.

B

About system lunchtime versioning, it's already explosives, an excuse.

C

People will information like that. They want to go there and didn't get.

D

So much I want a statement. Was this old point the.

A

Only changes is little acceptable, big bosses and changing the needs of this movement and no rent, I'm disciplinary.

A

B

See my losing the room so.

C

How many versions of Oliver, you're gonna.

C