.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 9 Jul 2019

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Description

00:00:00 - Approved: Add async versions of PipeReader and PipeWriter completion https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/39241
00:10:42 - Approved: Deprecate PipeWriter.OnReaderCompleted https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/38362#issuecomment-509732308
00:16:46 - Approved: PipeOptions, StreamPipeReaderOptions, and StreamPipeWriterOptions should not hardcode default sizes. https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/37984#issuecomment-509735688
00:26:33 - Approved: Make JsonConverterFactory.CreateConverter public. https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/39307#issuecomment-509740229
00:41:37 - Approved: Make Microsoft.Win32.SystemEvents static https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/39308#issuecomment-509744182
00:48:38 - Approved: Add AppContext.ApplicationConfig https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/36897#issuecomment-509749369
01:05:59 - Needs Work: ServiceBase.IsRunningInWindowsService https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/36842

A

All right, so no, we are actually live. So if you want to wave no it's your time. Congratulations so explain why we need this API.

B

So the original part there's two slaves writers on the right side. If you call it complete, you would flush flush. We would move the buffer data to the reader side, synchronously cuz, I'm, just a single buffer copy or whatever I mean wouldn't be an issue. You would never cut it off. So, if I, if I called like get memory, bla advice complete, you think they didn't call flush. They saying it would make the data available to the reader and complete.

B

So when the reader called read next, did we get whatever about bringing him in that during my advice, we're fine? We now have a thing called a stream pipe writer which wraps a string and there's no way to make this work without having this thing right. Synchronously today what happens is I clogged every event is a buffer in the pipe itself.

B

Vibrator I call complete I, don't want to cut the data off and have it end up being ran through the string it has to get the buffer and call right and flush and completely completely sink is basically the same as before. They think for a few murder, if you buffer data.

C

And basically you're wrapping a synchronous API, so you need an asynchronous.

D

Yeah, like stream itself I suppose, do you think that right right.

B

So that other reason exactly so oh yeah and the second reason is complete- also calls disposed in some cases. If you call, if you call why not create awesome extreme in and you possibly open eyes eyes bolts, they call it this both and completely so complete anything. We called the sort of thing in the new universe and.

C

So we make the existing complete sync methods: they'll wrap the sync methods on stream, and these complete async ones will wrap the async ones on stream right.

B

So in my peer for this change, this dream, pipe writer and complete, will call synchronous, random flush, I mean frequently a thing called a sink or a blush.

C

And if you, if it's been configured to dispose the underlying stream that it'll be disposed or disposed async, presumably right got it.

E

Steve, can you remind us of the rules regarding value task versus task comment, country.

C

About consumption, the primary thing, so, if you expect your consumer to 99 percent of the time just to wait, then using value task is fine. If you're, where it's particular valuable in sort of the 99 percent case is when you've got a value task of tea, because then you can avoid allocating for each tea and then in sort of the remaining. You know five percent case or whatever. It can also be useful for value task.

C

If you believe that now we're at some point in the future, you'd be able to use a pooled, a pooled object, there's a small bit of overhead associated with using value task versus task for, if you don't employ any of the optimisation. So you want to be sure that it's you know a net benefit and there's a usability impact to trying to use a value task for anything other than a weighting. So you want to make sure that the they only know pretty much everyone who's going to consume.

C

Your API is simply going to await your call.

E

Value task: if you have a custom now you ask completion source or whatever it's called or you are transparently returning. Another value task: tricky, because if you're virtual, it also says birth date was hard and.

B

C

Sort of focused overtime on you kind of have to imagine that in the fullness of time, if performance really matter, you would exert the energy to make it as performant as possible. So it really comes down to. How do you expect your API to be consumed? And there are many more things that you can do with tasks.

C

Then you can directly with value tasks, and so it's it's really about completion, and if you expect it should be directly awaited, basically all the time- and you believe that now or in the future, you will be able to take advantage of the perf benefits of value tasks which could include over-riders. Then it's perfectly reasonable to use it.

A

So in this case will be rep stream right now, well sure by like I mean be happy if and specifically for wrapping the stream. So that means in this case how that's just one specific tea right. Okay, let me put in my thought so basically like one, the usage is history. Yes, so the question now is: when stream doesn't have major tasks? Api, that doesn't mean it has best. Friends about me overlook it is for right after this was a thing like.

F

C

Right flush, I suppose, I'll have a sink and.

A

Those are the only ones we call from this yeah so.

G

Is the pattern going to be just call policing come on? Yes in our code for like everywhere now, it's like no.

B

Matter right, so, if you call complete, it can be sync and introduces rapper. Most people probably well will use complete. So if you use so for the most part, if you call flush anyway, you hope are you going offline, we'll be doing our click.

D

Like, though, you'll also be calling at the inter disposed async right so depending on the stream flotation.

B

A question whether it's like.

D

If you have the default pipe rider, keepo, hi, breeder.

B

Like like these are gonna, be a practice for clunking air first call and complete a sink in the default cave. Complete. A single is complete.

D

Yeah but you would.

B

Prefer completed a sink for max forward. Yes, we recommend people to be a saint in general for the most part. In effect, then, why not just.

E

Says if you have an.

H

A

So does anybody have a problem with this particular a pyramid? It seems like nobody has. The problem with shavers propose.

E

D

It's like I.

H

C

Think it's against the guy, it's virtual, which means we have no idea what implementation is going to be able to do, and we actually expect that implementations will be able to do a like I would expect the default implementation.

C

D

Would probably.

E

Use the wisdom we might not use bullets previously, it was preferred tasks, overvalue task unless you're writing a high-value completion source. If we want to say virtual means, someone could be wanting to do that in there for value test. Okay,.

C

So we should should have been those guidelines. It's the the I value test. Source thing is really: if you believe that you will be able to do a high performance implementation now or in the future, and when it's virtual, like we really do, need to call out the virtual case, because you're providing a place for arbitrary implementations to plug in, and so the question becomes.

C

Can any of them do the high performance thing, and is it important to allow any of them to do the high performance thing, and in this case it seems like it is.

I

You know I just finished writing.

I

I'll tweak it for you.

A

Unless the boo-boos in the Shelf is not done.

B

Second edition: don't burn in those trees. Oh yeah. We.

E

Don't burn trees, I, don't get paid.

A

Capitalism, wins everything all right. So then my next question is so we they have. This other issue here, which seems somewhat related to limit, is copying. Oh no, this one I, don't know like you tell me.

J

B

I'm, not only do these mistakes, we can deprecated the sou. So you give me the comment that said: it's abstract right. Yes,.

A

Sir I mean dimensional.

J

A

I mean yes, that's the thing. Yes, we have done this in the past. Make.

E

It virtual know what good thing we should do that bare minimum make.

D

It virtual underneath it so what does so to that breaking like if most of notations no ops yeah that's way long with it? Well, what would it be ranking change, because people would expect that it's there that their call back would get called if they register it used to throw no I just know off well.

A

I mean that's, the I mean that's more like it. Yeah.

D

We can make it virtually a virtual.

B

Tours all you have to do, they can throw sorry dude. No, it wouldn't be a big. You have to add a can API if you think well, they both.

E

Are ones just because it's abstract? Currently everyone has an implementation partner, yeah we make it virtual, throw and that just means new implementations would yeah throwing until they did something. Yeah buddy can throw on.

B

He's a trapper: it's.

D

Too useful, if you saying that, like stream pipe rider and leader could know up, though I still do.

K

It they do a lot. I know I.

D

Know they do but I still don't love it, but the base you know do.

B

That, right now.

D

A

B

It we got written in the network by.

A

Who is normally the one calling it? What.

D

Do you mean who the consumer, so it's.

A

Not the infrastructure, but it's literally.

D

B

Consumer, the intent was to have a way if you were not the person doing the junior writing to get another fight when either side was finished. That really work. If you brought the stream up, it.

A

Sounds to me literally like this is an example where we make it virtually no up it. We obsolete it. Yes, people don't use that I, don't I mean everything else seems worse, like I'm. Making it through all seems backwards, because it no means everybody has to override it to just make it do nothing. Oh good. You seem.

D

Ok, first, but is making it do nothing better than throwing like I, would do that. If someone is calling it, they expect their callback to be called one yeah, but if they should be right so that they.

L

Shouldn't? Why not? Because that's always that's what he said: yeah.

D

Oh, so they should be calling it if you throw and then they fix it the same way by not calling it well, you wouldn't make it obsolete and because it's did two different sides, but.

A

What I'm saying is anyone.

D

Who calls it today needs that functionality right if.

I

C

That they have that call and they've deployed they're out and you're not broken as a result. Why would we forcefully break them? Yeah.

A

C

An exception would but.

D

They both break them. In one case, your call back doesn't get called the other case, really ones. I'm.

C

Rapidly running they're all back and getting calls didn't, then they have no problem.

E

Who would be invoking because the implementation simply chose to never invoke the thing, even though you register didn't like that, like the implementation stress, yeah? Okay, so while it would be unexpected and- and it may make sense to market- is obsolete as well being.

D

Know what the problem is. This is kind of like enough shutdown logic. So the fact that it doesn't get called is conservative. I do.

B

Have one more here already there's the other side, maybe shall sweep both sides.

D

Yes, if you're gonna do it be both sides like I thought, that was the issue have one side.

B

The other side kami admitted yeah- this is- is pretty impossible. Devlin.

D

Oh yeah I think we should be more explicit with the breakage I like it implicit, like I, think you're gonna get more subtle harder to diagnose issues. I can wait. uh No opping deliver me put this drink the same here today, I know so there. How many use case does the.

J

D

Those consumers of typewriters review again the good news in general is the pipe isn't a super-wide least api. But when you went to the 20 mm, like I hate using.

B

That as a bar use for making same kinds of grades for the for this one, we want to make it both sides. So deprecated, your dog, your dog, already completed.

L

Over your way,.

E

You sleep, yeah and you're on.

D

Well, in the past, people have used this as like the one way to like aboard a connection. No, you know if it breaks yeah but I'm, just saying even like the one.

G

B

I know exists, no, no! That's.

D

What works right? I mean it works now, because we fixed it. The.

B

New wrappers, don't fire the club eyes, Idaho.

G

B

To work, so you won't be broken. The effort you get notified that it ends up leaving, so you have green pipes, will still work. The.

A

Wdb just say we should throw, did we save it? You.

B

Know we're not going okay, that is deprecated, make it virtually obsolete both sides and.

L

B

Api and I don't point out.

A

27 I don't know, maybe five c-13.

A

And, given that you guys have a much lower bar from brain to.

F

Nothing alright.

A

So then we have done this one. If then, this one click the.

L

Home button yeah.

A

Alright, the Tanners issue we're a little discussion where there's not a little bit unknowable and.

M

And Stephen also raised that, rather than just buffer size, we should be tension all of the integer based ones there, since they also impacting like people.

C

Seems like if before we talked about previously, we talked about only touching the buffer size parameters, but there are all these other and the pipe options. Api's are these other integer based parameters, and it seems strange that we would use negative one to mean the default for some, but but not all Oh.

A

We have a fine lady who'll. Do something or is it just needs.

D

To be maintained, oh yeah.

B

Basically, those.

D

Api, the constructors, these are in options right.

B

Yeah but yeah, but they're read-only. You knew it up and get all of the constructors for yeah yeah yeah. So we just make every argument in noble right now with a game that was negative. One no problem a foursome make it one, sir, well that fizzing that bringing.

D

K

You can have any overload on the constructor right like.

D

You know what so is what, when we shipped.

C

We've shipped all these before.

B

We've shipped adoption before, but we changed, we change the value then forget that break again. It is the ring change, but we said it's an acceptable.

N

C

We changing a data type is different. Yeah.

A

That's why I'm asking like what is the change that gives the changes are due for the baby or the name or the structure, so might be the property.

M

Proposal is to make these no longer a hard-coded number that way we can freely change it and impact existing apps based on future profiling data. We it because we're currently basing it off of roughly skylight computers we're running in the office. It's not necessarily what people are using in the real world.

O

Even that, just like.

M

Yeah, and so my original proposal was use negative one because we're using that in, like the stream, api's I, think it makes sense. It's consistent, there's no perceived overhead in any case, because it's just an integral value right and it would make it consistent with everywhere, where we can't use knowable, because it would be a breaking change. But it's the.

G

C

M

We should just use knowable on api's, 'but we haven't shipped before so well.

C

In some occasion, I just I just.

M

Care about consistency.

A

So doesn't mean you're retracting your inaudible proposal. You would rather have them all either minus one or all inaudible, but given that we can make them inaudible, you rather prefer minus one.

C

D

With that okay, so this is interesting right.

N

P

D

Default value, there's the unlimited value yeah and then there's whatever you set it to you, so I understand that changing a default values breaking which is interesting. Well, it's in the typewritten okay, because, like so right now for things like pause and resume titers writer special, we just have integer values as default. um Not all would mean unlimited, like that wouldn't mean default today. You can't send none of them. You mean megan is here on site.

H

A

D

I'm talking, okay, I'm, switching context, I'm kind of talking, the future where it was novel, but yeah the sentinel value, whatever it is, is unlimited. Do we want another sentinel value for like a changeable default value, or can we just change the default? I mean you're, at least what you.

C

Can change you could change the constant, but anyone who had their binary already compiled is gonna still have the old value yeah.

M

If we send it to a hard-coded value and we determines like three years from now, 2048 was a bad buffer size. We really should have been doing. 512 based on metrics were getting from users. Then everyone has to recompile their existing app. If it's that hard coded value, if it's negative one, we can change it under the covers and anyone who's deciding to roll forward to the new version. Just picks it up.

M

Let me I got it hmm and then theoretically zeros a bad value, because zero could mean things ranging from one limited to no buffering to anything else. So yep, it's not mean value negative one. It's going to always be an invalid value for eight size and it's the cheapest negative value to construct, because it's literally just XOR the value to get zero and then nada to get all one's.

C

Personal situations doesn't matter yeah.

A

It's in like long min bailing, this looks really funky. It's like when people like, oh I, think I, know what so.

B

When you, when you read the property, you get the actual value that right. Yes, that's.

A

Why they they should not do so that so the structured not expose the default. Sorry, the the central value it should. It should be based the constructor should say if it's once it whatever you want it to be so right. Otherwise, if you want to tweak anything, you need to be able to get the value out of this instance right all right. So.

D

Concretely from higher option, stop pause writer special right today. Zero is unlimited right and then everything else is the value. So we're saying that we making nine negative one. The default zero stays unlimited.

E

One is the you haven't specified a constructor for you haven't specified a parameter to the constructor. The constructor will displace it the values. It is currently the literal it's in the default yeah, so the property will say what it is right. Now it take the code that you would write right now, yeah specify like as few arguments as possible. We need the property value. We make this change to negative one. Your code does not change. Yes, you still see the same number until the future when we decided that that was a bad people.

E

Default parameters don't create overloads, they inject that value as a literal in the color code.

B

Okay and they they want of all these things.

B

I guess I guess. The only weird thing was that if you pass negative one who has bummer societies, it'll just aim to be positive, throwing that was the only weirdness negative one, but I mean it should be fun. It just says I'm explicitly asserting, but I don't have an opinion. It's more like if you did say anything so no better, because no kind of can represent I didn't argue versus like acting and negative. One is like oh and path run by you and so they're already, but.

E

But that's not a negative one. Let's somebody have another helper that took it as another. Maybe optional parameter and is forwarding in it like you, don't want them to have to figure out, was I given this value and do I need to rebind the call yeah.

H

E

A

Unable is better in the sense that you don't have to remove ages from your baby's face. Exactly there's no, but I mean for almost all of our cases. Most of the time, it's can only be positive, so you have a pretty large.

Q

Icon to know they just base your training up, throwing fairly. Oh.

L

A

I mean you could I mean I mean there are cases I mean with the same discussion in range right? Can you I can be said? How do you? How do you indicate indexing from the end? Well, the concern was when you indexing computation, has a bug and you accidentally get negative. Now you have a valid index when in fact, you really wanted to think to throw all, but -1 is also very I, mean the problem of indexing from end. Was it's basically an unbounded sentinels page?

A

Well, this one is, you would have to hit exactly negative 1, which yeah can happen, but at the same time, even if it happened to hit this case, probably nothing bad will happen right.

D

You think that makes me mean again small bows that pipes needs effective, as you said about this one for default, and one for unlimited. Like you know my threshold side, yeah or.

I

Unless you want, like Malibu.

D

Malibu event, like you might say, just use I mean you could but like you might as well just keep them right. Okay, all right, yeah,.

B

At a time I'm, without if it times finally- more yeah and.

K

B

Not time Shannon bowtie.

M

Definite is a time span.

K

Yes, yeah, okay,.

M

Negative once also commonly used in native native code, so people.

H

L

L

L

That's of that mm-hmm.

A

All right so then the next one would be.

R

This one from Jeremy is Jamie in the call it is I'm here or.

O

A

So yeah, what do you wanna do in this one.

O

In the json converter factory, the crate converter is currently protected and you know internally the base class. We have an internal access er to go and get at it so that we can actually create them when you're composing. If you want to compose other factories, the only way to do it now is through derivation, and you know in particular, we have the JSON string.

O

Enum converter, which I seal is part of the original plan, because, like generally speaking, rather have them sealed for performance and flexibility in changing implementation details, but that makes it impossible to use the to build on the json, enum converter, json, string and converter, because you can't derive from it and then you can't also compose it either, because the create converter piece. So the scenario they have here is the like.

O

And apparently this is reasonably common is that people were common enough to somebody hardly open an issue on it is that they want to put it out as a string, but not if it's flags, so they write their own converter. That checks to see, if it's flags and if it's not if it doesn't have flags it uses the screen in converter or otherwise it just falls back to the default which it put. So that was the number right.

E

Because I think I wasn't one who actually called this out, that there should be public, but one of the things that we had also brought up at the same time is: if I'm trying to create a Jason converter that can handle lists of T and I. Don't know what the T is until create converter is called. How do I actually get the converter for that T unless I also have access to the like context, object that they current.

O

Asa, so there's that there's a two-stage call here so I didn't put the rest of the API is in here. So the first thing is like: can it can convert gets called so that's public, but you just handle can convert and crate converter only gets called. If can convert returns. True.

E

It's called by the you realize: there's a big deduction: yeah, that's public anybody right, yeah, no.

L

So the this room, he underlies all, doesn't answer my question now.

E

So say that say that I'm, creating a converter for list of T and sure I am my, can you create a converter for a list of person is called like I, actually can't yes or about unless I can go back into the serializer and say hey? Is there a converter for person.

E

O

G

O

There's a you can't answer: if there is an if there is an existing converter for that type right, so my list.

E

Of T converter means that can work if and only if there is an existing converter for T implemented by someone else or if he can.

O

Use the default, you know, one of one of the things that you can do is I mean it does go in order. So well you want to handle it only if somebody else doesn't know no I am the list of team.

E

Converteth I am the converter for all possible list of T. It's just because it's all possible list of T I need to wrap the converter for T. How do I get it? Well.

A

I think they do is you would start with adjacency on as a function, but you can basically, you can say, get converter, then you say person and if the answer comes back well, don't yet have adjacent converter and you can call for the purse. It's not being passed in here. I, don't have access to the Jason sterilizer options. No, that is true, but I, think Jeremy scenario. When you're composing, you know converter slash factories yeah. That code, that does that has to have a handle on the Jason, see all the options that they provide.

A

Q

We're doing get it from like.

E

How do you think I want to see a code sample yeah.

E

Because that was also one of the things that we called out in the API review last time. I want to see a code sample form that was never provided well.

O

The the code sample that people normally do is they just drive right. The.

E

The code sample that was provided was I am a list of T where T is very specifically interlocked.

L

A

I wanted to see a code.

S

E

For any arbitrary yeah.

B

A

I think you're right. You know.

Q

Settings otherwise, your screen.

B

But today they have to be right from the base the Burnett over right so like.

O

The the way you do it now, the the way you do it. If we don't make the converter er a unsealed is presuming. We make this thing public. Is that you making to make a new you make a new factory yeah.

O

You make an instance of the JSON string, enum converter in it, and you can handle you check to see if it's the type of enum and then, if it actually doesn't, have the flags attribute, and that's your true and then, if then, when you get to converter, then your then you get the converter from the the string. Enum converter, you.

E

Invoke that type by name the stringing I'm converter, you can ask, was it I? We have the reasons using another attribute on on either the property or the override on the serialization options. All together.

O

So you register your new converter. The stringing of the converter is never registered unless.

E

Someone registers it, you.

O

Know right, you can't announce an order. Anything! That's that's sort of that's orthogonal to this I think I.

E

Think Levi's argument is you're saying you want to add this for composition, but the first composition scenario he thought of the API doesn't satisfy.

O

I, don't I'm not claiming that this thing.

E

Socializer options in is another parameter in your method,.

A

I think that won't make sense, I think the other one would be with Jared. Okay, that's confusing the other Jeremy on the phone yeah the first year, I mean first, no I think that susan has, but there's one I want to compose multiple converters right. Sedessa said: I gave a generic, as you said, like the list of t1, when in this case you want to override can convert, in which case you want to ask back it. It's somebody register a converter for person right.

A

So in that case, I think the only sensible sanaya for the unsensible api, for this would be. We just pass in a parameter. I think in the US will be would be crazy right. The other one was what the other Jeremy just brought up is like. If somebody missed configures does I think that's fair to say, don't care, because the idea is. If somebody wants to customize how let's say enums are are are serialized. The idea would be, instead of them registering the string, enum converter.

A

They would register the non-flex training in converter and then they can decide what their scope is. It might be. Global. Might be for specific ties, but that's that's. That's. That's the you know the configuration against the visualization context.

E

Which is this guy? Doesn't.

A

Have to know this.

A

E

Convert and Cree thingy should both take the serializer options so that they can answer the question raced on asking. Well, what would you have done with that type? Yes, sir, what would you have done with the first generic parameter of that I.

A

Mean the question is: if we just passing the settings, that may not be enough right because, as you said like you, let's say you on a property if it returns a list of person, but.

E

I think the settings is the thing that you can ask. You can go, find the Jason property info for each thing, which includes the override. Whatever.

Q

Thing includes the override street. Let's see anything you I guess.

A

O

E

Yield on the prompting or in the option that I thought a minute, the options itself was the whole cache of all of the results. No.

A

I think that's may not be public, so they're the same.

R

Enemy has the latest sentence in there, but it's not.

A

O

You you can register multiple converters. That is a possibility. Yeah.

B

So it's the options in getting.

O

B

You can get other converter, you.

R

O

Because they're they're gone through in order and you could.

B

O

Do things in the right order for this particular scenario? So you could you could you could register your own, but you know yeah, you register you just have to make one that like looks for the ones with the flags and returns the int value yeah but like and then rest straining them converter after that, so that.

R

Is a possibility for this particular scenario? The only thing is when you passing the options, the only thing you can ask for our.

A

Converters four types: you can't ask for you know on this property that somebody.

B

Specified when well I.

A

See you have any contact yeah.

B

A

Where me inviting which be made on can't read minds like that that I guess it also depends on what they would mean, because the ideas fundamentals.

B

It doesn't compose. Well, maybe maybe that's fine. If you can specify converter on us, the department can yes, yes, Venice then definitely did but.

A

That has to be for the whole time, but that can't just be for personal right. I have to be for the whole list of person. Right, yes, in which case was there's no composition, because you just specify the exact converter that's being used. Maybe that's fine.

B

Y'all get 5, you didn't let that convertible you get the option that we get composed. That way. It really doesn't. It can I think penalty, I'm.

E

Going by based on healthy MVC model, I think you would want to call other converted to visit.

B

They want my me get finder. You.

A

Get the you get the reader and you get the time and this Jason sterilizer I, guess the sealant they can serialize.

E

The instance in our Jason serializer options is roughly equivalent the object.

Q

Is based in Syria like there and it's the things: what are the converters and yatris, which is probably a dictionary or something right? Yeah. It's converter collection.

A

Rich but zonally you can probably just a collection, so I, don't know how they even apps it to time you have to like be bored at night. So that's the converter. No, it's typed in it.

Q

A

Yes, okay, you basically have to okay, you have to basically move them and that's one yeah, you just say: can you convert this time again, a specific.

E

Point of this protected: where can we make this protective thing public? The fact that the can't convert is public means that actually be the work should be public, but I think that we at least it feels like the people in this room have enough feeling that the current signatures are wrong. It should be fixed and we have about three days to do it. I finish, you're right, we should add the option to do cover.

O

um I can create another issue for that. Well, it.

E

Should have been.

O

The notes from the.

E

Last API, where they posted somewhere.

O

A

But only issue: there was a request to do that. Yes, what we in the so we in the last review of somebody I might have been Levi whatever brought up, but that we a compiler, should be public and I. Think Steven harder, pushed back and said this is only called by infrastructure. There's, no reason why it has to be public, and then we couldn't Vince ourselves that we never want to make it public and that's why we went from protected, but I don't think there were notes particular for this item.

A

I think it was just in the discussion.

R

Was that if you.

E

I review recorded because we.

R

O

Continually yeah I mean I posted DiNozzo.

R

O

Just wasn't aware of that: I mean I only hit this because the it was I had done the string. You know, converter yeah, you know, and then somebody true it was trying to like compose with it and couldn't.

O

So I I can so the the the the API we're asking for then is that, like the is that the both can convert and crate converter or like also have the options passed.

E

Because you need not just to be able to answer the question, you need to be able to do it, and so it looks like James's design just to compare it can convert. You only get the type and you're supposed to answer the question and then write, which is.

E

The final answer is given the serializer, which has all the options on it, but.

E

So I, theoretically, we could do a similar thing that, like you, create the factory that remembers what the type is and I don't know where we go after this I don't know what the right looks like. Maybe we get the options there, at which point you you've deferred the answer until really late, and then you go. Oh wait. Nope! Actually you don't know how to write this down but turns out you wouldn't have either. So it's not a problem.

H

It wouldn't meet it.

O

Would it be a bad thing to be adding this in the next version is a there's a like second.

E

Now we have to lie to compile, but then there.

O

Are a lot of people I presume that don't care about being the majority I mean it certainly every case right now we don't care.

A

It's just becomes impossible for the caller to do that. I know.

E

Which override override well, if one stays public in one state, I mean what you do at all. Madam.

B

You're deriving the type we build, all the mark, part of all of our internals imprison, I'll, probably avi, or do we use a different API in currently will.

O

We use the same thing, but many of these methods that are protected she's. Just oh look.

E

O

Everything and everything is a is built on the public converter stuff. It's just all. Our converters are internal really except except for string yeah sure again,.

B

You ask one question before you.

O

Write and so alright so I can take both things back then and, like I can add, the I can add the other parameter. All those.

R

All right so I just marked the API, as means.

A

Work and it is supposed to comment underneath it just go back and alright so for.

O

This right, it needs work, it is it is, it needs work or is it like just we Martin.

R

We we promise, you can.

A

Be in public or composition reasons then I think that design just making the API public as this is broken, if you just if you just make the change you proposed here, I think the feeling of the room is that that's a broken design, because.

R

You can't actually compose it. Well, it's I, don't know. Is it.

O

It's not that it's broken. It's just that there's other functionality you want. In addition, yes doesn't.

E

O

The scenario is one yeah that doesn't make a girl like.

A

To me, this is kind of like you, you pointing a spotlight on something that will be hard to extend later, which to me is kind of the same as broken as you're. A city you'll.

R

See the explosion of steam on counter, if you.

A

Are they can convince us is sufficient, which I think is the problem and they're getting it later. I give the end overload later it's going to be hard, because now what we have to all.

R

Our klingon, actually what we want to do for the other one that is public.

O

All right or can convert, we want it on there as well and that's broken. If we don't do that right now, right so I thought that so aren't we agreed on that. That way, that's what we want is we just want the can convert and sorry converter, yeah.

E

So right now for the highlight kind of thing that did reading writing reading and writing does take the Dickson serializer option. So right now we have a design that looks like maybe some Jason, where you know the can and then the factory are supposed to just create something that can't answer the final question until the reader right method is actually called but and levi's list of t example.

E

It does feel like if there was no custom, convertor register or whether or not there's a custom converter registered like it's either you're gonna hit a default behavior and know how to do it or there's nothing registered in the types on serializable. So it's possible that maybe maybe we don't need the options during these two questions.

E

So the Fertile rate of money, because reading right didn't do get the options. So at the time of conversion you can ask. Was there another converter that was supposed to handle a generic type frame? You just can't ask it at the time that you're asking asked do you know how to write this 50 and then the even since we cashed it up, because clearly we don't want to look that up ever single time.

E

Yeah the factory would return a thing that knows that it's writing a list of all this potato and then at one time it figures out how am I actually supposed to write down a potato I.

I

See what your standard other options.

E

But gekkan burn yeah potato yes, I.

I

Mean I can do list.

E

Up its window and if I blow up at one time, Madison yeah.

I

Q

Guess the so the API might solve the scenarios. It's just.

E

A little it's not the way that we thought of it and without with the limited sample that was on the screen it. It was hard to answer. It took me a very long time to find the need.

I

Yeah, it had to be right.

O

So what do we have, then, is a takeaway here then, because I want to, you know, make sure that get done. We need to get done before.

G

The week is out.

E

Before things get really really really hard to make more changes, it would be absolutely good to see that someone could write a converter for a list of team where the team itself was using a late, bound converter.

E

So the kind that doesn't use the attribute model and just uses the settings injection and if that can be written, then the API is good, and if it's not, then we may need to change. They can't convert and create factory method.

O

Like, as you pointed out, I think it can be written, but it'll have constraints and it's awkward yeah.

E

If we don't like it in wish that we headed in the convert methods, then we should change them now, because we don't want in the future to have to virtuals that you have to like look at stream and overriding stream. It has several competing virtuals for the same functionality and it's very hard for mobile.

O

Don't understand why I believe units believe you mean I know screen but yeah. So we wonder, are we that here at the camp, yeah I get it so I guess I was also correct background with the FX design review.

E

Because the best example for everything.

E

Things that won't understand this things that handle upgrades sort of gracefully the best example of it. It's also the worst example of anything cuz. It's dream.

O

Some of the derived classes try to do a one-up on it. Alright, Steven.

G

Sometimes they get it right.

C

Yeah we every release. We find something that we messed up in some overrides somewhere.

A

Right, so are you happy with that then.

O

Well, don't circle back around in the next day or two sounds good.

A

Would your up again.

R

O

Just this is relatively trivial. The assistant system, events is still sealed, class hasn't been, wasn't changed with oh, but it's it's a static class. It actually has a private constructor in it. Sealed seems like it has worthy as we're rolling up the. When you know these things are gonna start getting used a lot more.

R

Now, with wind forms coming up online, I.

L

R

We made those same breaking. Changes in internet fan, working right.

A

So it's the same thing applies here: fine, like.

O

The you know we talked about it, something yesterday your it is technically breaking, but you want to be doing some really sort of bizarre things to actually have it break you yeah, because you can't actually create.

R

These things and I mean whatever I wouldn't Weekender put forward, would have applied to console to apply to environment until they were.

A

Able to absorb them into tool timeframe, that's.

A

All right, then, since nobody has a dissenting opinion.

B

Before the before the desert analogy.

G

Yes, non-static class is just abstracts yeah. The.

M

Only difference.

G

Is that could either create instantly yeah.

M

Activator, create instance, private reflection. If it was protected, you could have inherent scenarios, but it's private, so that was it well.

A

The one thing the tea shop doesn't, let you do is you can only use the static type in signatures before you could have warned the method that says. I accept the system. Events.

A

Able to call the method II would have I mean unless you manually construct one of those who private reflection, which baby at that point is like well right. Yeah.

M

Basically, any when Jeremy was talking with Levi I yesterday we determined roughly that anything you could have done with it. You wouldn't have actually been able to do anything because there's no there's no actual instance date or anything so.

G

But yeah so sealed private, like reflection.

Q

We, including we, have precedent for this. We.

P

Did it for a few types and yeah.

F

102 old buddy, I'm.

E

Just making sure that we under like I, think it reflection is the only way that you.

E

P

Was my fault I had just chucked it out there early on 302 and block some of the porting work, so yeah.

O

There's I'll probably be circling back around with the number of wind forms, ones too, but these ones are. Do you think there's more ones like that? Oh there there's there's, there's more in wind forms, so.

O

That would be I also take a look to see if there's anything left in our repo. But that's.

A

Public yeah, because it's hard I'm concerned, if you can, you can improve them all because they all have the same characteristics, anything that has only private constructors and it's sealed and only aesthetic api's. It.

O

Would be some it would be somewhere in all double check. All this stuff was originally WinForms code right, yeah, including system drawing, so it's all gonna be in that that bucket of stuff- that's where all the way 32 related stuff was exposed great in system drawing and these sort of new things that are also came out of the that were that were worked out of wind farms back in the day.

O

So I'll do I'll, do a pass and if you consider them approved, I'll, just call just picks them all in one pass. If there, if there are any left in our side, it's only a couple. Most of them are over in the wind forms, refill I, think.

N

Yeah all right.

A

So they many else have something. Otherwise. This is the time if you just walk the list.

B

O

Can we look at? Can we look at the lot, the other one that was there on for me, it's a few down and then I'll, so I can get into the it's one a little bit down about context. Yeah.

M

And there's a really simple one which we basically already approved, but then we had to back it out and we run it supposed to the diplomat yeah. It's the math name, one, a.

G

M

G

Oh Oh, what we do this, how are we do? Let me.

A

F

Everything I want to, he was taking off, I need.

O

To drop out of the meeting is it possible to do that? One yeah, yeah, okay, all right.

C

David, you actually had like 300 before this meeting, but I just want to close them all.

O

O

B

You going to type thing: what's the story here for configuring for me.

R

Well, I, don't know actually.

A

I'm, helping them out hope I, don't see.

R

How it settings, but you can totally use it yourself.

A

If you want to depend on it, but it's not reference by default, you don't have to go out anywhere to get to some configuration.

L

What is that? Other file type is the public static file here.

A

That's a string mystery, it's the it's that it's the path to the for the African coast ring ring. Yeah. Sorry,.

A

Well, the thing is, it's already exposed right, yeah. Basically, you can get it from there's. This data grab back.

G

A

Is it is just exposing that, in a way that we can actually why.

O

So the actual the actual recommendation is and that this this is the so this is sort of weird but like that's. What I had originally proposed and Yan has suggested that we don't. We don't expose that at all and that we just have those settings sitting in the sitting in the in the cache.

O

So in that, so there's there's a collection that those things come from which it it talked about. Is that and you can actually access that so that, like we, don't follow the pattern of continuing to add things to app context anymore, like we just have settings sitting in there.

O

Well, generally speaking, the default is not to do that. So we.

I

O

Be going to act, context, get data and set data. um Alright, sorry, no there's one other piece to it, but like it would be nice to actually like have app context exposed the set data. It's not public, but you can get access to it by going through the app domain set data they're actually the same thing. It's just a little awkward to go, find to.

A

Understand that those things are actually tied together.

O

A

Not the first one for us so like I, disagree with you on slightly because we have very similar API. The reason did approve, which was license file, property and abdomen setup, and it's the same. There they're exposing it in the data dictionary, but the reason we exposed it was well because people actually used it right. So this is the whole scenario of like you bring in existing applications that worked on full frame work.

A

Well, in this case it was some def Express component they'd use the license five property to locate the file and do whatever they do with the license stuff, and this was used by one point: four percent of apps right, so that's not very high usage and we convince ourselves, that's high enough to do it. This one. The conservation of over is used but 15% of apps, but I would say high enough to say, there's no harm in exposing that it is already there.

A

It just means that existing code that happens to be compatible to farmer captain so continuous would work just fine on core which twitch to me. It is adding value. That's fine! Your point years, it's effectively the name of the of the host change to the extension config. That's all it is it's basically, whatever the property already is in the database. I.

B

Think it's fine just compatible what I'm worried about who makes it so working on it. That course.

A

B

So that I'm saying.

A

There's this the existing thing, which is the optimal set of one it so I'm, not super concerned there. What do instead of is, is, is exposed to us. The thing is, if you look at actually it's not your life. Also.

E

Have domain setups not static and others.

B

What can you add me not her domain dot? Sorry I'm, looking the.

Q

Other thing, sir static forever does have two main set.

G

Up yeah I mean so yes, this is not static and the problem is instance.

E

A

So basically, like I think putting it phone anyway. It's been a course code. I, don't think anybody would both have to insert the finder configuration they wouldn't. If they do, then okay, then they try too hard right. This is more I. Think to me, like I, don't have standing popping like yeah. There will be compared to.

G

An existing triad right so its final.

A

For xox doesn't understand why they need this thing, though, like I still understand why we would add it there, why do we? Why would you add the property to AB contents for use yeah.

O

Because Kim is inviting.

N

Pocket-Sized strictly necessary.

O

It's just that we do the same. We expose other plaited things in the same place. That's all right enough! Can you speak up again.

C

Sorry, I missed why? Why wouldn't we so there's our in desktop, there's app domain set up the setup information configuration file? Why wouldn't we just expose this in the same place today? Encore.

O

That was my that was my proposal up there. Just like you, oh.

C

No, no, that's that's different. This proposal up here has it as a static thing on after me and set up.

B

O

It's instance: oh yeah, that was a mistake. Title yeah.

E

It's a public static configuration file, you added or two strings that the problem wasn't said static where it Michener.

O

Yeah, the the class itself is not static. I, it was my bad okay.

L

It's fine for you laughing yeah.

A

I think the first one makes sense to me. The second one does not make sense. Yeah, there's.

O

Just there's no way to set it right now and that's that's a that's a problem. That's on things like makes tests not work and stuff like that. There's no.

I

Way to hack around it.

O

Because when people people are still using yeah, this is mainly about the you know. The system configuration stuff right, so people getting their app settings is.

D

This gonna do a lot of snow packing, configure whatever when you said it. What's up so there's gonna be like two sources of truth: there's gonna be the way you currently get it and there's gonna. Be this new way. If you said.

O

D

O

Is the way we currently get? It is just getting it with no way for you to see what we're getting at so now I mean we.

P

O

Getting it from the same place effectively it's just now. You can change that with uh on on startup, so the new startup hooks, you could actually go in there and poke this the problem. This is like once something hit this the holes. The whole way system configuration is built.

O

Is that it's it's all via reflection and it's all static on the main things that come out so once it's hit, you're kind of stuck yeah with what other, at whatever value it is and like the workaround now is like requires changing all your code to not use the statics, which is difficult.

B

For people to do that, isn't crabmeat on encore anymore. They call that work so.

O

Like the the stereo now would be like, so what should happen is like MS test will actually go and set this thing to be the location of where they're you know where they test us and the testing app is being run from is right now with like a look at it. Just this is the one concrete scenario that's come up multiple times is that the actual the actual app config that gets loaded is the one for the test, harness yeah, not the not the actual thing you're testing, but.

B

You can't change that record. It affects both than me of the man I. Don't like the thing you want that right.

O

Well, it's what you do it for some one thing at when the test harness starts up. It would change it. They do it right now, like maybe some historical, the historical way to do it would be to have the man they always create a new app to me yeah and like give it the place so like this allows them to do the effective sort of thing, but.

B

Clearly they always cleaner. You make a new universe and you point this world that complete follows this Way's changing the currently universe and it's static waiting. You can't around, for example, II, just what's it all by no.

O

You you could do it like in the other one you could do it even for the initial abdomen right. You can even do that now, sort of the other that we don't hook it up. We don't quickly, never hooked it up to.

O

B

That work is it, what is it config read by the runtime itself, before your operon? Don't we don't use it another money, of course, and I would look, but in full-frame it is well.

A

There's something you have.

R

A

Arm that meets it, but I don't think that's the same thing as they have different caches effectively. Yeah.

O

We don't read any of it until after the abdomen is started so yeah the automate has the property on it. We get it from that so like if you're firing off your own app to being for managed code. You just said it. If you need to do it in the initial one, then you would set the optimum set up when you create it. The original ones via the host that you create or I.

A

Mean given them it down push system configuration moving forward and giving you this API is truly for my compiled I, honestly, don't care so much like whatever. Whatever the eBay we have chrome, evil network so for family would work for core as well. It's just. We wouldn't push new code down that path. I'm.

B

My money concern is you look before you test frameworks or whatever has to use this forward same way.

R

Well, it'll work effect like this work. The same.

A

Way, except that you can't create new F domains which is fundamentally different grade it. At the same time, though, not everybody does create new abdomens white people. Do people do use the configuration file even around creating after that.

B

I, wouldn't love to see how they thought the uses. It's good backpack but serious thought I shared me was a well.

A

It's certainly not great yeah.

O

Well, ideally, you, like the configuration system would not be static like that, but um that I can't change.

O

You can see somebody.

L

Somebody's commented seven days ago, they're just.

O

P

L

P

Had a comment in the chat that I just wanted to okay way in here, so configuration file has a meaning in the current app model. That's different from the system configuration meaning, and so the the runtime config is the thing. That's storing a lot of the application configuration these days in core, so we have runtime configuration settings which plumb through to the runtime, as well as to the app context switches. So if we did put anything on app context, it ought to be the runtime config and there are some scenarios for that.

P

Victor hit it the other day when kind of special scenario, but when we have a test case which wants to launch another process and ensure that that child process runs against the same shared framework as the parent, he has some really ugly hacks in order to get the path to the the running done in core applications, runtime config file.

P

So you know that it's just it's just breath counting the fact that we shouldn't put this on App context and if we did I I wouldn't I, don't want to I, don't want to feature creep this issue, because this was mainly about system configuration, but it would be nice to see CS plumb through the the actual runtime config and maybe depths file somewhere.

N

P

Yeah, but that I believe that that would feature creep this issue, because that requires changes to the host I, believe yeah and coupling to the host. Well.

B

P

A in the property bag- maybe maybe.

O

There there then that's kind of the problem. That was my.

P

Pens on the host or.

G

Anyone, oh you.

O

Wanted to prompt me bag, the out contact, yeah, sorry, the configuration file as well so which I still will do, but then it will publicly expose it through this. Your the afternoon set up. So you know: it'll come from the property tagging, that's there. Otherwise it's.

J

B

We expose we hadn't any calls service helpers, thought is, is any windows service, it was internal and then some guy said I want to use this in my programming and I said Oh kind of weird, then can use case for it and we made it party public. It really shouldn't be in the exact order, League name for there to be part of the service base universe. So.

A

I, don't so that one I can agree with, although I think we've had a question of like what the heuristic should be, but but the question really is: I: wouldn't put it on service base, and if you want to say that is because it seems it's a bit weird to pull in an entire thing. Just to ask the question: what do you want in the windows service, which is no dependency whatsoever right.

B

This depends, it may not serve base, but like today it's couples like Windows. There was a very well.

A

So it depends on how you implement the API right, presumably like I think they were here. Stability came up with, as you just basically asked what the parent process is right here, which is effectively. You know you you, you had best depends on process in order to to get the parent process, I mean just asked with a suitable name.

A

You don't need infrastructure of service base, but service base is really more for exposing the entire thing of, like you know the the service API layer for the for the event loop, the young star thing and you're like it seems a bit odd that in HP net you would just pull in this whole thing. Fuli to ask is one.

S

Question but presumably.

E

S

Asking this question.

E

You also want to use other api is on the tight because presenting your special casing on, so we basically.

B

Listen to see if you're in a trailer, then I didn't know off based on that.

A

But yeah my question then becomes like what do you do when this thing returns? True, we.

B

Use the console across all of the service loads, you kind of say, if you're in a service use the windows service lifetime map like on pause. Often do you use anything in the service space yeah of the whole song store yeah when.

A

You look up to all of those who do well, if that's the case, and it makes sense to pull on this file. Yeah.

E

Is it fear it? So there are two scenarios right: what is you're just curious yeah and that should probably go in like runtime environment or something like that, but whatever it is in system runtime whatever the other is like. If you're asking this question and your based on the answer, you might use these api's you're already pulling in the dependency right.

E

Yeah using interactive, acting sound like that's, not right, yeah, it's not the right thing yeah. We we really shouldn't, be telling people to look at the sauce. That's.

E

It's also not reliable.

H

Was it not, we.

B

Had we have got some big figure if you're a certain set up here, yeah we can review a heuristic yeah. We can review and see if any good same problem, the next surface, the only Delta T on service, if we, if we choose to use any API for like a salmon or something then maybe up like this the way this is not good enough. Well,.

D

That's why this name had it in its right return, false if you're running as part of a Linux, damn it it's like, it would work. It's just you want. That is when.

B

You look at my service on this public. No.

A

I think they're kind of are like I mean you could imagine that if you ever want to add an API, then that actually has the. So let's say you have a multi-layered system and you have like you, didn't see a Mac. You have Windows right and you want to say: I want to have an investing API. That makes your asset ends of the question.

A

Do a one in there service tomorrow, yeah, it's okay to have the West specific API is in the own specific place, maybe if the demon Bay's dot it's running in service, its other space, that is running a Windows service, and then you know, if you ever wanted to highlight like that, you could still build that, but I think I, don't think I mean the problem is: is some of the stuff like service bays, it's tied to Windows? It's really hard to imagine.

A

I would use Java space okay, and we have this in other areas where you know console is kind of already in the place where it's in Vaughn ideal, but console user is so pervasive that you're not having console to be. You know the first platform terminal would be impossible, but they have the fact on the window isn't on it. But if you have to start all my body would design console also differently, but I yeah, definable things like services, I, don't think problem that this one is right there and I.

A

Think it's okay, I mean I'm, not sure whether we have to put windows in the name, but people we just say is running a service is probably fine, because the whole type is already window specific, better I think it's fun to be there than yeah.

D

I kind of add service over in service or talk about that yeah I, just I'm bringing.

B

Everything to be an adventure, they lost.

B

I should come even more I'll. Take it what's up, then I panicked at tomorrow's coming.

Q

And two is running time.

B

Traffic for you is like spoons I heard, like I, have like a we straight. Second, everything before it to a pretty oh um yeah,.

J

P

J

P

This is this one blocking partner, so you block does.

E

Not you sure, well, right.

P

Now, milestone on this is future the.

A

Annex is revolted because he thought it wasn't one before, because they already have a workaround.

B

Holding a game I would love for. You is you're. Looking at you.

J

For real yeah you can school, I said public. There's.

B

Some dude, why did one no yeah, but some.

E

B

You have a develop.

E

Business justification for.

B

We had interns yeah and then he by the bug- and they all had a good scenario right now and and.

E

Api or ESP, don't that's own design, review process that? Yes, this is the appropriate thing yeah to make public.

B

Say I mean I say that's.

E

Put in for five minutes but forever ago so so sounds.

B

E

Review process should not have made a public video. You know. That's.

B

Fine, it's not external.

E

Service, what we should do is, we should add. Websocket dot is not four or five or greater. This.

A

Application targeting.

E

P

S

Really don't like this service.

P

Base you guys discussed that well, because I really don't like this in-service bass work, because the code that uses it has nothing to do with a service wall code is like the whole point. Is it doesn't know if it's in a service? So why would it take a dependency? Oh, this.

A

Will be just as the idea is that if the API ever turns true, you have to use service base to hook up certain things right, but it sounds like it was API returns.

E

You have stations, but that they're the appropriate place to have this API. Now Rossum's made a public and free Oh mm-hmm.

L

E

You haven't shipped yet maybe.

B

To get a memory reviews that.

H

P

Just based on a whim.

B

Where would you put it if not all right.

P

B

P

It on process I put it on something, that's inbox, so that if there's any library code that has dependency on this and cares, it would not take not bring in a new nougat package that I I have to go check check the service controller package, but I believe that we only implement that for Windows. I know.

A

I think the API is very specific. It is because it's the way it's their whole lifetime model.

Q

Is basically different for more than you see, there's the weird thing is: if.

E

You put it on process, you probably don't just want to say. Am I running as a Windows service? You probably also want to get the controller instance, which now means the process has a dependency on a service controller. No.

A

It would do that, it would just say we would just give me the boolean if you, if you want to then do that you have to submit the nuclear package, but I think this is the. Why I said earlier, like what do you like? If that's what you do right, yeah if the API returns, true or also new, the things that are independent of using service based, then not putting on service back adds value, because you don't have to pull an independancy Pooley to ask the boolean question.

A

But if, in one of the cases you you end up having to reference a NuGet package anyway, to do meaningful work, then you might as well just put the API there at.

P

What why would you reference service base when, when doing this check,.

B

Here's the antenna right, you have a nice peak replication or about your own service and you're running it nvx as a console app. But when you deploy it with no service, you call you use Minto service and that clip says, am I gonna service. If I'm not used to console and at like a bright kitchen, if I am use, it did, let suppose an API to.

P

Give me another scenario: am I running in a service? Don't show any UI? Okay, if I'm running in a service show UI I, don't need to use anything in service base to do that, but there's a valid Center for that I have run an application daily. That does that. That's.

E

Not the right question to ask, though, like it, if you want to know, if you can display UI, imagine the question you should be asking very specifically is: can I display UI like will, will you are there's plenty.

P

Of other things that well so this this whole thing is kind of a conflation, API right, and so it's it's a boolean state. That's it's trying today.

A

Is user interactive whatever? What I think is for the UI case, the better one to ask? Even though it's visit it returns true from a console app, but because.

B

E

There are there's a category of applications which can pop UI in a category of applications which can't pop you live in that category, which can't pop UI is more than just services. If you're running in like yeah, you can pop you I correct it will you can but it'll display on a desktop and don't have to see him, so the answer should be no. In that case, it makes your date shopping.

E

It does but I mean that's that's why, like I I'm, not really a fan of api's, where we we tell people, you can query this to say: I am running in this scenario, but people are using it to answer a different question.

E

A

So I agree with that, but at the same time the reality is people will find whatever stackoverflow answer it is and if that's the 10 line W a mic here, they will do that and you have the same thing. I didn't say, but.

E

I mean if we have a sip, so there are two scenarios here right. If we have a scenario where you need to know, if you're running in a Windows service, then we should have an API that says I'm in an Windows service where than the API exists whatever. If we have a scenario for I need to know, if I can coffee why we should have an API for, can I coffee wine that.

P

Was just an arbitrary example, but I just wanted to point out that there are numerous ways that that it may probably a lot more legitimate ways that you can use such a boolean and then and then then.

C

Use it to be idle central, that's interactive.

P

It's the service, Control Manager, yeah,.

A

I think so, to just give you another example why I think it may be better to put in service space the more I think about it. So today the heuristic I think is get parent process and compare the string of the of the XE or something right, but I'd, say Windows in the future adds an API that I don't know being broke into some weird planets right, I'll be okay with doing that.

A

From that say, process or do we think there's a layering issue depending on what the module ends up being because then we may be better off, actually putting it more specific to service base.

P

What like I I, didn't I didn't follow the Nepean VOC suggestion and you this hypothetical. Well, it's.

A

More, like you imagine the the case where, so today the heuristic is pretty dumb right. It's like a get parent process, constraint comparison and you return true or something right, but let's say there's a better way of doing it, but then, depending on what that way ends up being, you may have to pull in more dependencies, but it could be in p12. It could be another management, API or oh I know it could be with our tapi about what whatever it is like. So the more you do has.

P

Anyone done that investigation to ensure that there's not a service, Control, Manager, API.

B

P

I'm, pretty certain that that information is available in task manager.

A

Don't think anybody.

P

We shouldn't be making decisions based on random community members, hunches in issues.

A

That's I'm, saying today's world is pretty naive right but like a dis, better API, then we should call it.

P

A

P

Would I would put the P in book and, like we can do P invokes better in the framework? Then we can in nougat packages, because in a nougat package it means we either need to cross target by runtime. You know what if we had a shim dependency too, if we wanted to make this.

P

Yeah IIIi, don't like this heuristic, so there's I think there must be a better way.

G

I was just paying the Windows folks. That was another detecting exactly.

M

G

E

Mean one written dem, straightforward ways to enumerate the services on the machine and compare their process, ideas with process picker across the site, yeah.

M

Well, then, that could be flaky if it changes or process restarts in sabab his. You can't change for the other process yeah, unless you stop and restart the.

G

E

In the current process of you're, not.

C

Going anywhere.

E

P

Just write an email to mark russinovich.

A

No okay, so okay, so let's assume there is a better way to do it. Yeah yeah! What's the best way to expose the API process.

G

Start is service yeah, so process.

M

Not a service he's running a service. You want to come to work, cross-platform.

G

P

I'd want it to work for processes that aren't yourself right like what, if, like it's diagnosed, cool.

B

M

I think I think knowing if something is running as some kind of service is likely going to come up for other platforms as well. Does it mean, though, I mean demons are a thing on my Nexus yeah.

B

But are they that.

M

B

Of standardized.

M

B

M

Basically, the equivalent of a Windows service is mean, but.

D

This is a kernel, though, like what your processes are.

M

Really, there's a special process that most Damons are launched under like Linux system D or something.

B

Yeah, because we have system these of work on a service of work and they're, your different yeah.

D

And not everyone use a system fee, there's also like an it. We like there are other like.

E

So a Windows service is a very well defined an operating system and.

D

Distres, unfortunately, have their own thoughts, sometimes about how they handle like background services. Anything.

M

With the PPID of one is, for the most part likely a daemon I would.

D

I mean that's just the initial process. Right I would not burn crosscut a service.

B

D

M

But I'm just saying that you can have it returned always false on other platforms, you can't with and I mean when it inevitably comes up that someone asks about. You know other platform, support for it as well. We can then break.

D

People by starting to return true automatic.

M

D

Soon, as we decide that like we have an obligation.

M

D

Returns true on Linux I think we're gonna be required to never return. We don't.

M

Document that it never returns to our lives, we just say that on Windows, it reports this and another platform. If we may report so.

D

What do we document, though, right? Because if we don't even know today like on Linux, what is a service? What do we document like? So you just.

M

Document that you may change it for few for other platforms in the future based on I, think.

A

Give me memory I'm, of course, I'm quite comfortable of saying that that we will break that behavior in the future by returning to in more cases. If we really feel strongly enough that this is a common break, people have, you can always Park it. Yeah like that is a very straightforward. So.

D

I I'm starting to take Levi's position that you're asking the wrong questions, then, because the service is this very ambiguous concept like. Why are you asking whether you're a service well.

A

D

Good like to this.

A

One because, because we already said like there's a little minute question for asking this particular question: when are you running any window, so we know we're talking about where we put the API so.

E

S

Go back to weather.

A

E

Not question so let me let me actually give you a reason why process might not be a good idea. Okay, a process can host multiple windows services so.

D

P

D

P

Fine that I mean you're not gonna, be able to be more granular than then like you're, not gonna, be able to Madonna inside a process, and the process is a service host process. Then that code has to be part of a service in that process. Yeah.

E

At least one service, but if, if if the scenario is I want to know, if I'm a service so that I can interact with it, yes or so that I can do operations with them now, potentially you also need to get the list of service winding inside the process. Yeah.

P

Yeah this is incomplete API.

P

B

Everybody will you a complete because.

P

It doesn't satisfy today yeah you can yeah. So all this information is in task manager. This all feels like diagnostic information to me and.

B

You can tie it together.

P

The use case for this one customer no.

B

No, what we leave I said II did it? It's not it's not for one customer.

G

B

If you want to test the Windows service without running out of service, because you need admin- and you have to like you- know, deploy your service if you want to run it. Yes, I.

E

Have this exactly.

B

It has to work yeah, you.

P

Can test it like if you want to test it that way, you can. You can pass in flags and your in your tests. You can mock it right, but.

F

P

State and plummet yourself rather than rezulin.

B

P

B

Think about customers and projects and templates and following experiences, you found you pull out submission and one thing: I want to win the service. If asked coats your app saying using the service all good and you cannot fight. If you want it to light up the became you want it to work as loved, it would work any with a service without running out of service right by default. So you can test it debug it play with it, and then you deploy it.

B

It does all the window server thing uncovered, but though you have to worry about it without you having to mess with your your argument from the command line, because we can't really like four feet of during.

E

The thing is because, because launching the service involves some amount of overhead, that the application can't really work around yeah.

B

They're going to have to do that anyway, you know so we we do it for four different things. So, for example, ayat and process we have what I said are you running in is if you're not go on so.

K

Make sure you're the other point.

D

B

D

Experience yeah.

E

D

E

When, when I did this, like my exe, was itself the entry point that you're saying that's not really Caesarea you're going for it Larry, but.

B

The the customer on the edge of my suite we can't mess with their main right.

E

But Jim I'm not really speaking, the main is the thing that needs to determine if it's in a window service and.

B

Then do stuff exactly so in our library code. You call use window service that could check to see if it needs to wire the windows service lifetime environment based on where they're running, okay, alright. So it's just lately I'm running a dead whenever I'm running fraud that kind of check for a to go to, but it's just trying to be a little more smart about defaults like so you can run it and if you guess, what having to deploy Windows service to even tested right.

B

I think if you're gonna burn a name, don't burn out a process burning on service surveys, because, if you're consuming it this API to get the events for lifetime, I have a bullet, saying, I'm item in the surface and then it's a pretty like low bar right and if you figure out later on that miss of generic there is cause of it. I might have to put in process then put on process and to have it be more generic. So.

P

Why not have all the service, control and enumeration api's exposed.

B

A fastener comes out where it's needed. That sounds fine, but it's not in this case.

P

And I I think it would be to implement this correctly. Oh, why.

B

P

Believe that you have to call in to the service Control Manager in order to correctly answer this question I, so I can.

J

I just I just researched, you.

P

Can do it by enumerating.

J

B

Mm, why do you have to enumerate the services running in the process? Half of the question Levi.

D

Said checking video.

P

D

P

No numerate all services on the machine you find their pits, I hope.

B

That you have a better version that is completely fine I'm asking what DNA being exposed why they complete for exploiting rule on this site, use.

P

A new en den scenario.

B

Complete I mean.

P

You do on the surface huh at the service name right. What service name are you running in? If you want to control that service, you just want to write tonight, service outlet, service control and interpret that using the service name that you're running hands so.

B

Am I, in my mind, is incomplete if, if you can't play it, you have to add more AP is to do like it lays you're saying so like they say. Is it so by yourself? In that scenario, if you have more scenarios, you can add more api. That doesn't mean this get getting complete. It just means me more in today's for more scenarios, if you have a new rage attack, I can solve all scenarios, then I'm located Harry.

B

But for my for this scenario, where I want to know, if I'm writing a service, it seemed as though you wouldn't need much more than a better a better version of what we did or the current good that W's and I'm fine, making it like be good. I. Just don't want to like not have the API, because we have different scenarios that require different API use that mean.

P

Yeah I I, just I, honestly think that there are better ways to solve this scenario that you're that you're, proposing for at least for tests, because.

B

We need to solve it. Doesn't that don't interfere with a person's program main or require cocking mind. You are anything to check to see where they're running.

P

So I, presumably there's as so. This boolean, like, let's invert it and say rather than check if you're running inside a a.

P

Service check, if you're running inside a test.

B

P

I'm sure, if there's there's.

B

P

B

A it's an app play.

D

Control FAA.

B

P

B

Application I mean I need double.

P

Ac itself host yeah.

B

It's selfless person's like being run under service hose cause. You call service, thought I'd, blah AC name, and then you saw the service without run.

P

Is it yeah I mean I could think of numerous ways to plumb it through? If you touch the code, because the service, the problem manager has a unique or sorry, the service startup has a unique entry point, and so you just use the absence of like you have that when you go through that entry point, you can set up set a flag and when you don't go through that entry point, you don't set the flag.

D

But you need two entry points, then for your app to identify that.

P

Two entry points: it's all the same man just that when I was in the service, when your started by SEM, it passes some flags to.

B

See the issues we don't even want to work so here's the question can I wear all that hood, no matter where we're in and have it not throat have enough blood. If that works, then, maybe really you need. You have to check all if I can run all this with base code and it won't like wolf in horrible ways, I'm not in a service. That's one way to make it work great.

P

I, don't I don't understand what.

B

You call it so if you call using the service what we do is we hook up on starting and on stop and I'll pause, and we we change the interactions based on those callbacks. So super example upon start number, fires drop your abalone I see. If we pump about the callbacks and they don't fire, it doesn't work. So we changed. The lifetime. Management could be based on the console which waits for a cat for control see. First, it's waiting on on start from up from from space.

B

As a concrete example of of things, we change based on that. Your veteran is a certain on in.

D

This is like a Sheena is a favor so like we don't be, not good or it's actually nice be nice. All is it's all in our faulting lyric. So this.

B

Whole thing this doesn't sure, but.

D

Like in our to your you project up these seasons, done if money's like a service, yeah.

P

Depending on service base, yeah.

B

Exactly so, they use with no service call we'll wire up a different lifetime. If you're running the service it it change that the next time planet changes the logging to go to the event log. We have those two behaviors based on if you're after bring in a service enough.

P

Yeah I mean I feel like someone should probably look at the goober scenario of testing a Windows service and and come up with the right. The right, end-to-end.

D

I, don't feel bad. Are you suggesting, like our templates, like take the arguments and like flow it through to like, are just all to.

G

Like configure.

D

In Windows service or whatever.

P

I'm, looking at the code right now to immediate.

B

Right on start, the model of image- that's big, hey thanks.

B

You made the surface movies not via service, if you're not running in the servants.

P

Well, I sure I'm pretty sure that I'm pretty sure that service base, like did you look into how service base is tested in core effects Oh to see.

P

Because I imagine and it hit the same problem: I, don't I, don't think we test everything through.

P

Now there's tests and we definitely do the tests where we install it yeah. It's significantly different code path, uninstalled, because you're running in a different context. You have a different token.

P

You know so it's like we test, I'm, pretty sure we test both scenarios, I'm gonna poke around ultimately I. Don't I'm really nervous about jamming this API in this late in and I like the.

P

If, if this was early in the in the release process, I don't think I would be pushing back, but the fact that we have like we're gonna fire this in and then support it for forever after that, but it makes me pretty pretty nervous to be just accepting it at this point like I would accept it for a future right now and then we wait and see.

B

P

I don't hand that little person here yeah. This is just an opinion.

B

And I'm a push back really me.

E

The track B of said, really Chuck, the the team shuttle so I put pointers in the hell. You can make the trek more reliable. It ends up clearing the entire yeah. That's basically what it does. It queries every single service on the machine. I think I'm gonna check the thinny against the local hood. That's fine! It's running once yeah yep.

P

I think we might even expose the I was looking. We have. We have some api's that caught we at least have the P invoke that you would need for this.

E

P

I see so yeah I mean that that seems like a good diagnostic feature and if we did that.

J

So you have good services.

M

You know, let's go, think, there's probably across bottom story here, because both Linux and Mac have the concept of background services, which they both call Damon's, which are going to be in the similar scenario of you have to do. Admin setup, studio, setup to get everything working and you may want to have slightly differently if you're near a dev environment, and they both have functions for clearing. Whether or not your service and mechanisms to detect it. So but.

A

This one I think is an auto issue like I think we can't sculpt this to be window specific, and then we can decide whether it should live, what behavior it should have and then once we have a cross-platform scenario for asking this question, we also know what the behavior needs to be because I think otherwise it's very hard to design a crossfire from you. I have the old implementation. You have as windows right.

M

My point was that, like maybe we should take it into consideration that there is likely another story here and if we're going to say it's future anyways, then we can look into that before the API is exposed and if not, we should keep it in mind and decide when we approve the API, whether we're going to have a dedicated Windows one or whether we're going to make a general-purpose and allow expanding it later. Both yeah.

D

Like in the case of service space like, if you want to support it, like you don't add system, do you support the service base? That'd be sweet, but you know like that seems like a big feature. All.

B

Right just so, you know we have. We have the same thing from Cindy, which is a of the next thing right. So it's exact my feature exact same behavior. You all used to me. Does it check if you are instantly admitted? If it isn't, then you you get call behavior.

B

We have this running late on every platform, with the same kind of semantics, so it's not like I, don't I, don't know it. The whole thing about completeness I get what you're saying, but we're not this hackneyed whomping for Windows. This is really worse across, is Linux how Windows different models all right and they all have to have to check to see where their writings and though I have to get to do more stuff. All right. If you run an ayah and you have the same binding it.

B

That's that can be run and I ask are on the command line. You have to check to see where you are and in it. If you're, not there, then you run on the puzzle. It's a salmon, same concept, yeah.

P

Yeah but I mean we could expose the API that lets you implement, that check, right, cool or expose the API that lets you compute it so I'm poking around it like we, we we actually expose a service controller type and we expose a an API that lets. You get all the service controllers.

B

If the thing you're gonna ask is how I remember running in the Windows service, it definitely looks like a common thing to ask: why not make it easy, instead of just exposing just the guts of how to do it, I mean it isn't a cricketing both right.

B

It just means you potential more by looking at all the services again yeah.

P

Potentially I just yeah, we I want to look at it more yeah.

B

We're gonna experience it's very late, even the club of forever ago. That's fair I'm, not looking like that. I just think I, just think. If you end up with a rule that says the same thing that different name, this.

P

Process is a if this process is a service present.

E

Why why not put the API for now in a spin, an internal namespace that way it can be? It should be internal. You make an internal I.

B

Don't know I mean it I. Would you have.

E

A cautious of public API ISM, an internal namespace, oh.

D

Yes, we're trying.

B

To get rid of it, I know what you're trying to ruin that puppy journal. No, why yeah? Thank you anyway,.

D

B

I a patch happen, and we have to change API and the PM work decided that we can't change. What's really good I, don't what that is like a bad thing. Yeah yeah well in a pouch was the people Damien. We.

A

Were so we were suppose bubble says reason for this, because, because.

C

There's another brightly.

A

Searches were so like I think for branches, I guess for pictures. That would be okay with that, but I would say that across minor versions, that should really be okay, right together. Why's that you might as well just make the API probably can call the public public when, like that's.

B

What was the big thing in the public are Charla because that that gray area of like oh it was confusing to people to use me well yeah, but you put a come on Nate. They saying this is this is not for use public. Please let me use furnivall bubbly, yes, yeah I mean I, think you can make it work if you had allies in the comments. If.

D

I give all the tooling understood it like if you.

M

Use quite frankly,.

S

People like if I see a namespace called internal, and you don't feel dirty about calling it like I'm, exactly the among analyzes that can give you the making me feel more.

E

Dirty in the range, then, this actually.

S

Relates to an API review discussion, we had like two or three weeks.

E

Back where and a conversation you were having on Twitter the other day to where, if you have a bunch of namespaces at the top of your file and your final relatively large, you don't necessarily know what, where the time you're using anthem. So you don't know if just typing a line of code, it's actually dangerous or not in the sense that you're using a couple times.

A

You don't know I get that all I'm saying is that at some point some massive editor using for the first internal usage right. Yes, if you don't feel dirty at that point in time like.

S

Whatever code you might after doesn't matter anyway, but the thing is that.

E

You and I are working on the same code base. You did something dirty I, don't know, I just happen to pull open the file. In my.

E

B

A

All right, that's so I wrote this one here, I changed my wording. I left a future. I said API needs work, so someone has to do homework. That.

S

F

A

Think we should do it.

A

P

Like it's trivial to add the pit to service controller, we already have all the information yeah.

C

P

Go it's literally just passing that to the constructor, it's no new, peon, folks, so sweet that could be. That could be something that's very simple and unblocks. This scenario.

A

All right, so what the is good yeah.

C

H

D

C

One for now and I.

B

Kind of what I.

L

A

Some diversity, okay,.

B

E

Can we do this one else in sure, though yeah all.

M

Right so I've got the.

M

Fix math on me, yeah.

B

G

Where you can kind of.

B

Look you ready, bro fluid, no other ace net, quarterly numbers to be like ton of zeros.

M

So we had previously reviewed this and I had previously made a breaking change here, to make it actively compliant. We had to revert that because it ended up breaking WPF, I Triple, E, 754 2019 is basically all but approved. Now and they're they've changed the spec to say that they're, exposing both a regular max function that propagates naam not a number and a version that does not propagate, not a number so I'm suggesting we just expose the one that does propagate that does not propagate as the as additional functions.

M

With these names to match the atrophy names.

E

Okay, so these functions do propagate them.

M

No, these ones do not the original. Okay. Sorry, sorry, yes, gotta do.

A

Math, don't many Papa games, man yeah.

M

Mascot men profited it's not number today, and these ones were not so.

A

What does that mean? So, let's say X is and then and why it's not. What is next.

M

It returns why, instead of not number, basically it's returning the valid number. That is not not enough, hence the name max number, and if you pass it down for both of them, then you then you get it one of the two Nan's of depended on the employee, but it's important or some has unique man's.

D

Like are they distinguishable there's her.

M

Double that's approximately nine quadrillion Nan's okay and they can have payload information that represents errors or other additional information.

D

M

Which is why propagating is sometimes important, yeah.

H

That's kind of love, laundry.

A

So you said: that's the name that day of pool yeah.

M

So so the name that they formerly use in the spec is max numb and max numb. Mag.

G

So I just exploded, the name to number.

E

In that you see, if I'm, if I'm a standard, developer and I calm down, taunt and I, see maps and action, number I would get very good at.

A

Dealing but I think that I think that distinction is.

D

Too subtle I feel like it should be like math, dot, F, dot, Max or something III, don't know if that makes it better like hide it for people who need to like implement it. I Triple E comply map that meant for their language, both.

M

Are my Triple E compliant is the problem.

D

Okay, sure, but like this form of I, believe I.

M

Think this is the case where intellisense is going to be your best health. Much like most of the functions all on.

L

S

So let me ask you this: what should most people call.

M

It depends so mostly with all pairs, so 4 4 4 2004, the 2008 in 1985 spec. This version, which I'm proposing we expose is the only version that was in the spec. The version that we had, which does propagate was was only added in 2019, because a number of implementations exposed both or have non-deterministic behavior, where they pick one or the other, and so I typically basically just said: let's expose both and have names for them, and that's all small. So.

S

How do they call unmask that mean.

A

What do you mean by like? Do they call 1 min and the other 1 min number cuz, there's.

M

A

Called Mac here, let me remote into my.

M

Machine and pull this back again.

A

Against all I'm, getting it is like similar to reverse reaction was, like you know, minimum maximum are fairly fundamental, simple concepts for most people right, that's not something there's somebody would pull up at night to beliefs back and says. Well now, home after min works right people haven't somewhat of an intuitive understanding of what that means, and you think you do until you know I.

M

A

Complicated all I'm saying that people have an expectation. Now you present them of to api's. That I think don't really help. You answer the question which one you should call so.

S

People will call public min because it's shorter, yes, like I've, been number min I'm, hoping muscle memory would just do.

E

That too, because those people, when they call math.min math.max or passing and some type of integer right, those people and I guess my tricking point- would be if I'm new to dotnet and I see both maps and maps number. Even if I'm, diffusing, integers I might just call maps number and have those automatically widen to double. But now the return type would be. We.

G

Know that maybe no.

E

One will do that in practice, except for now people use bar everywhere, so it'll actually be a double well.

M

I mean map dot max itself has end overloads yeah.

E

Yeah, but max number would also match because it can be converted to double impossible.

D

So if I never use man, these implementations are equivalent or not yeah.

M

If you never use nan they're equivalent, if you use nan, then it makes a difference on whether you getting in or whether you get the the actual number.

Q

Yeah the postman, is you never use it, but you may get it back thing right.

S

It doesn't make sense to have like.

M

An idea I mean now or some more class. This is still the same root problem as when we are going to have to discuss where to expose the half and quad functions. Yeah.

G

M

Continuing to explode math may be a bad idea, and maybe we should just do what other languages do and expose them as static methods on the primitive texts themselves. But there's been pushback on that in the past and.

E

Well, then, that would still we would still have the whole man versus not now.

D

And you wouldn't had the opportunity of just putting these things in a new class, not saying yes right.

M

Another least relegated to this is on float and double online, so.

E

What, if we actually just had them, had an overload of max that took an enum which is then behavior.

M

And that's going to slow down per for cases where min and Max are considered curve.

E

Critical yeah, but the if this method is properly in mind, the enum value should just be a compile-time, constant.

M

E

As I sew it assuming perf weren't an issue: did the API design that I just mentioned, make logical sense when.

A

We do this flow rounding, no, no.

M

For rounding, we have the midpoint rounding thing and that's another discussion that has to happen in the future, which is some people want to be able to control the rounding mode. How do we support that for functions other than just round.

E

Coming back to to what I just asked so like it, assuming assuming we can make the perf work when math dot max overload double double nan processing. Behavior, you know, would that make more sense than having to max another member, my but I'm I think that would also potentially be confusing. It would only.

G

Be on the double.

Q

Double avoid I.

G

Q

Isn't this confusing on her become man, because.

M

I think it's more confusing from their perspective of like you should call the overload that doesn't take it for everything that isn't the non propagating version. Yes and so then the extra argument basically pointless.

D

Well, the overload is the other names like thing like I mean we could add new, enums, later or Nina values. Later besides, we need to fix up an absolute despair or cuz I'm. Also.

E

Thinking like I, know, purpose critical. We can always make a perfect like we can. We can contort the one time. However, we need to make these might that sound for best performance. They.

A

Mean it's postponement over here like one minute over time, and if you like we're not being done in five minutes or this one like it seems like I, think my general gut reaction is a new top-level name seems bad and against the name is distinctive enough. So people understand what the you mean us, because Maxim magazine number is: if you ask somebody on the street they're.

K

Not really there, they.

M

A

Basically, equivalent choices.

M

Well, that's also true, for basically anything if you ask a random person on the street about I Triple E math, most people still think that ABS B plus C is the same, but.

D

In the case of this case, their interpersonal is.

M

D

Who's going to be using that of.

A

Introducing the API that allows people to differentiate, but because the names are not distinctive effectively, you will have a 50/50 spread between these two APRs I'm, not sure the world is better off. We.

D

Should just be making the decision for them basically, and if you really know what you're doing.

A

We just need to be more explicit of what it is right. So, for example, let's take anybody, lay that propulsive of Athena, you could imagine we our planet or browsable, never on the existing ones. That only take two arguments introduce a new API, the text, the what is it the the nan behavior one with a default value. So in Tennyson's you see, oh there's a default value here. The default value is this behavior don't want to specify something else. I can, but.

D

I feel like pushing anything off the normal happy path being wrapped up in Mad. Max two arguments would be kind of crazy because that's what everyone calls right, but.

E

D

E

D

A

Okay, yeah and I mean even then, maybe you still have the two argument version right. It's just the also intelligence, always see the third option and you can customize.

D

That's like the first one, or just like as an option.

A

No I'm saying me too, except today we have Masterman that takes a B right, yeah I'm, saying that's planets a browsable. Never on this one. Let's add a new overload that takes a B, but what if well that takes a B and the behavior and the behavior is defaulted. So.

D

My argument is: most people don't care about the behavior, so why are we asking them to pass? The third argument, if, like the do.

G

I do that if you.

D

All it's defaulted, so that's why you know. Why would the two argument one be editor browsable, never like, don't least because.

A

It because you want to tell the sense to always show the third you.

E

Wanted to tell us to show the three argument one, but when they close, the parentheses it'll actually end up going to just.

G

So people know.

M

G

Like yeah, maybe lives.

M

Typically, for.

H

M

Unless you're, using not a number as a sentinel value like WPF, was you should calling this overload.

E

Okay, this is something we would change from being asked, or is that consider just too great I.

M

Think it's probably to breaking to change the behavior of the original. One will be my guess. Yeah.

L

M

So I truly calls the minimum minimum number maximum maximum number minimum number magnitude and maximum number magnitude and minimum not minimum magnitude maximum.

A

So his number of roses, Mac number was as magnitude is that.

M

No no magnitude is the second overload. Their magnitude takes the larger of the two absolute values for the smaller of the two absolute values and the.

G

M

Students, I guess in the same in the same reasoning, number makes sense because it's saying I'm picking the number versus the thing. That's not a number yeah.

A

Again anything we should postpone the zone yeah the more stuff in there and then actually get. It makes sense.

Q

Once he does, because they don't want to have like it.

A

Q

E

Lot of a lot of these concepts were already exposed in Cindy.

M

It's just right: yeah I think this is really mr. question of why.

H

Not Sunnis we're never going to come up with a better.

M

H

Because, like if.

M

Someone to suggest it even like I Triple, E min that's not going to be valid because both are I Triple, E, yeah.

D

M

I'm just upset we had to revert your original change like.

D

Obviously, I hate that we have to move on the math dot, min and Max that exist right, but.

M

So I don't think we're really going to come up with better names other than maybe something like max non propagating and max magnitude non propagating or something that requires like super verbosity, on line for something that really should be the thing that you call by default for most elementary flows, yeah.

D

That's what I didn't understand is like going forward for doubles and floats. That is like the existing version is the one you don't want to call annoying.

H

M

But then it also depends on what you're doing like if you're doing, game programming or things like that. You want to call this one. If you're doing WPF, you want to call the existing one, because they propagate noms for Sentinel values.

A

All right so then, let's just end this one well now and then more stuff later.