.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 18 Jan 2019

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From YouTube: .NET Design Review: Serialization Guard

Description

We'll review the proposed API surface of the serialization guard:

https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/34555

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With my Jason Fowler, you become tensed on that cold, like before I believe.

C

So I was actually gonna okay, so the policy is but we've.

D

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Okay, so I think we're just going to separate. Thank you. So one possibility is that we put a static method somewhere. That says turn on or turn off, zeros a federal property for this and then so then anybody in in the process can make that decision for the process. Christophe the things you're describing it sounds like would be more like we put looking over load on binary format or duck. You see realized that says, would you like to have more, not have duty or the serialization guard right now?

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C

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Could conceivably do either of those things.

C

We wanted to be able to make the decision. We want people to be forced to make it everywhere that he said on eyes. We want people to decide this entire app and all of its friends, and it talks. Do you are completely trusted.

A

um So the sort of it you know suggestion the sort of idea would be that we would actually like this on my default for par 3, that's a different decision for framework, but for a core 3 it seems like it ought to be reasonably compatible and and helpful I'm good here you guys who might want to be able to say. Ok, I want to not have this. Alright, you.

D

A

Of don't seem like any quite.

D

Like why would you ever want these judges.

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D

A

Involved in stuff, we don't have that problem. This.

D

Stuff I can be a little car. I can like I cannot like behind this, and I really actually want this yeah.

E

Let's not couldn't talk about the policy, but that's on off, because it's in it's almost along to the API, it's right like if it's on like there's some API should be acting directive. It's often it's off, but like it's the same API right. Well, whether it's host on and always on, that is reflective. You guys. We need.

C

Everybody's wrong, thankfully,.

E

It sounds true, you might have an you, my knee didn't tape. You had to turn it off, but I would say that let's table that for it like until we know what the policy is, but I think that, like I think in general, like if you, if you accept the feature to be on I, think we should be able to make progress on the rest, but you only have 25 minutes left and I think policy decisions usually longer than that. So the so the distillation block the exception, I think, is fine.

E

The only thing I would suggest is like is is buying from under the only center that we would. We would check hole that is shipping in box, or is there any others that be able to check one box because it seems weird to use the binary format is exceptional because then yeah you're compatible there, but you're not commit over anywhere else. What is the right from exception and say this is not for binary format or it's for IB. Do you still I would have once walked into.

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Our binary from internet dated contract, serializer and so formatter, and also in soap for matter, is intel core and checking method contracts. Don't.

F

Think you do this.

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F

Yeah, so we do.

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Have net pcs the wait now ducks just as interesting relationships. We maybe don't have net BCS none. None.

D

And there's like someone below you.

A

Right so in in the sort of initial version of this I, don't think we are going to have it in XML, sterilizer or data contract for matter, there's, there's sort of a case for doing it eventually perhaps later conflicts. It thanks realizing easier yeah. Those.

C

Is VCS considered.

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For no instant, no one's found the gadget yeah, so they deal with XML, sterilizer and data contract. Sterilizer is that they accept a list of types that the developer wants to serialize and so, for the most part, that's fine.

A

There have been signs of like some application will not really feel like making that list, so they'll actually accept the list also from from an attacker and the exploitable that way this for anyone interested in digging into this, there was a good topic: black had a couple years back called Friday the 13th and JSON JSON attacks, okay, it sort of it outlines list. So it's it's, certainly not a prevalent problem.

A

You can follow good and even reasonably sensible practices and be fine on data contract format and for all the PC realizes that people just made up themselves and similar problems, there's nothing stopping them informativeness. Once we put it out me from like using API, you know if they, you know they would actually kind of have to use the API in order to do it, they can't really stop you from starting a process and without being able to be able to change process.

A

I did reach out, he came to King and he had questions. I still have to get back to him any questions. So that's not a yes and it's not enough.

C

It's just I'm just saying it would be easy for us to accidentally make it impossible phones, no, not people can view their own serializing, like people no avoid.

C

So while we may get to exit the vehicle so for you are just I'm just saying, if we're focusing on implementing this to binary for now, and all these yes sure.

F

If we expose this, is there any concern about this itself be used to cause problems like if someone just called, if someone's able to execute code and call start B, serialization, then basically you'd never be able to use process and file, and whatever else for the remainder of the process, the RC car doctoring, the.

D

Code and it raises questions and I.

A

This may be 10 second opinion. You know I think that's.

D

Unlike the that, you can start the visualization, the.

D

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Is realizing yeah, so I mean I? What I'll say is the the sort of general threat model here? Is that code in in a subpoena or in a net port of any sort app is, is trusted code, so I wouldn't expect that someone sort of is expected to have enough code execution to call start the serialization, without otherwise being well outside of the security boundaries. So.

F

It start deserialization itself a target that uses whatever that other API is throw on dangerous to civilization and.

A

I mean sort of is an implementation detail, it kind of turned out not to be, but you know, certainly given the the implementation could change. It's no different to ten.

C

Thousand other API that I could just shock my person it's like. If I can edit the environment block I could not even make first I start not where most the time we'll make it launched my own exit on this lot. So I think.

E

Basically, the idea would be like if you can call this an exit. You can.

G

Already have encoding.

E

The process by which this plenary, but.

F

The whole purpose of this feature is you're able to run code in the process. Let's stop you from doing certain things and I'm suggesting. Isn't this one of those things you need to stop you from doing.

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Thing we might have to address from a practical standpoint on start, the serialization is the serialization 50 sterilization can be and actually is, sometimes free. Cursive, for example, I think data set will in its deserialization, will new open new binary format and deserialize, so we actually have to be capable of handling recursive deserialization.

A

Now you know it is true that if you were to just sort of leak here, you're a serialization state it. um So all of this is sort of lots here thread in async context, so you you've messed up this thread in a sink context, but you haven't like messed up. The whole process. Do.

E

We have like, on camera, we had this attribute. We could put on methods that would block them or would either allow or block the API from being colorful reflection forgot what it was, and so.

A

Anyone ever know people can do with cats and then there's there's a some kind of reflection blocking an attribute. It only kind of works. But I, don't remember the exact details.

E

Cause I mean really the realistically. The thread is that you call this API a reflection or anything.

C

I'm not sure, that's even coding any other API. The key thing we want to block is not random term methods that there could be bad things, but things that we can find a way to be triggered to be civilization like they're part of the implementation deserializing. Sometimes that's actually similar sure.

E

What I think the problem here is like calling start derealization indirectly, when the other party base it off early, correct and hit a using block around. It is not as problematic as if you call the API directly leak effectively, the distillation token or disabled basically have the API is in the permanent rule. This you add to the oh yeah.

G

The finalize their mind over that's man, that's.

E

Not a hostile situation, that's a mistake! Yeah! No, no I'm, saying that if, if you're doing this civilization find a way to call this method yourself right and then you basically they purposefully leaks the token right. There's no means you disable this civilization, basically for everyone, I.

C

Guess you want some understanding my head, maybe I'm missing is if you can call this method, why can't we call sources sod well.

E

I mean that's Stevens Point Mike Stevens one was basically. This whole feature is about. People can run arbitrary corporate record in your process because.

C

It's not about them in here with you. This is about before you get the article, it's it's in the D civilization that we prevent.

A

Let me talk about this in a couple of ways, um so one is sort of the the gadget target their extinction, so you're sort of not even to it a little bit which is so gadgets are the ways that we know that you can do bad things, and so we just don't let you do this and that's sort of what you're describing the bargain.

A

You just don't get any more if you try to use a gnome gadget right, um but the reason that we have this concept of targets is under the assumption that number one there might be unknown gadgets and number two.

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Even if we do a perfect job, there may well be gadgets in upset coder and third party code, and so it may still be possible to get some amount of control, and then someone may still want to parlay that into starting a process or loading an assembly or something like that, and so that's the reason with the blocks. In those things now.

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All right price targets, yeah so so sort of under that threat model. Yes, you, you could perhaps describe start a civilization as a target, so the threat there would be denial of service. I will say that in particular with binary format. It's is necessarily true of other sterilizers that there are other denial of services, and this is a remote code, execution mitigation, but not a denial of service medication, so that would sort of be a limited denial of service.

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um Just sort of you. You have this one thread. They can't start process at say.

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But I also, like short of trying to use some kind of reflection and prevention I, don't see how we can tell the difference between this is a necessary recursive call like data set right versus this. Is this is being heated to target for denial of service.

E

Well, that's what I'm saying I mean the only differentiation that I can think of is if you could determine that, you would directly call by reflection, because that's really the only thing I mean because if you're indirectly called then, while it's probably normal this realization, if you directly copy somebody, then that seems bad like. Why would you do that?

E

But I think that was the I forgot? What it was. The thing we did it for Windows 8 will be attributed public api's that were in the Windows 8 API said: oh.

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You can't call them a reflection.

E

All the ones that didn't have there were me all over.

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The republic, yes, that thing was- was actually special built into framework yeah for like Windows 8 apps, so.

E

I don't think we had. This is a general mechanism, so but I think that would be if it would have it, it would probably be the right thing. Yeah.

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Actually simple cycle of implementation: yes,.

C

Well, we have to identify.

A

Being directly cold, as you say, but reflection could be way of the stack about where to see my vision, I mean basically the the way we did that when they say it was reflection, had knowledge of these things. It wasn't supposed to do, and so it would stop you that might be a nice core feature, but we don't know it's.

F

It's reflecting invoke itself a target, or is that used actually during these realizations, so.

A

We couldn't disable well, it certainly is doing your serialization, but I wouldn't necessarily describe it as a target, because it would just be sort of another way to to get to a message it but like it still had. um The way we think of targets is a target. Is your actual goal like? Why is it that you're that you're building is payload? It's because you want to run your malware? So how do you run your mouth, where you do it by loading, an assembly or something but I, probably been gadget, not target?

A

Oh, it's not a gadget in that there's the serialized. It won't hurt, it I mean they will use it directly. It's part of the implementation, but it's not it's not sort of an attacker control thing that is being deserialized, so gadget would typically be a serializable object or or a property or constructor, or something like that on something that sort of goes off and does work on its own. That ends up being attacker, controlled right.

F

I guess I'm wondering, like you know something like the temp IO collection right. The concern there is, it deletes an arbitrary file right. We've must be knew, there's probably some times somewhere in the world, but on these serialization takes a string and invokes it that one considered a target.

A

Right, yes, exactly that type would be I'm. Sorry. That type would be a gadget.

F

I'm, sorry, that I would be gadget, but the reflection bunk in that case would be a target.

A

I would think if the reflection, though case it's sort of how big a jet works, if that makes any sense so well,.

F

Okay, maybe I don't understand the concept, then, because that's to me, that's the same as process start or file dot right. It's how the gadget works again. We're talking about those as targets.

A

So I guess when I'm trying to describe it is rather this silly lucky gadget is a type that on deserialization goes and triggers something. That's attacker control that gives you more control of the process, not necessarily full control to process, but more control of the process than you had before right. So the cat would.

F

Be Steve's terrible type on deserialization takes a string, materialization info and does something with it and to me that does something with it is file that hope in that path. Process.

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Don start that path reflection not invoke.

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F

Hope you don't keep coming sorry, I was just saying I did it doesn't affect the API per se, but it affects with all the various things we consider to be targets.

A

Right yeah I mean that well, so, first of all, I do expect the bullets to change over time. So, even if I say the wrong thing today, that'll be something that they can correct for us. As you know, experience with this and research continues and there's there's certainly also a practical aspect of this, which is like the you know. Reflection is everywhere and certainly in in the civilization there's reflection everywhere, so it's sort of not practical to block it, but all right, like I'm I'm, trying to look quickly at like so accurate activity.

A

Surrogate selector is, is an example of the framework gadget I'm, pretty sure we just don't have an encore, but so the the point of activity, surrogate selector is it uses reflection, but what it uses reflection to do is it will like create an object to any type for you and fill its fields in any. Does that bio reflection? But that's sort of you, you can look at as sort of a whole as if that's the gadget, but doing that isn't now where it's not.

A

You know some sort of nefarious end in and of itself, whereas once you get to assembly load, that's that's saying: okay, workers, time hours start it up.

J

It's the much more below the older days just exception time.

C

So, what's the what's the right thing to do to decide the policy right because I mean normally the way API review seem to work? Is you walk out of here, having marked it approved and then anyone can in this is like a implication that it's ready to that? Isn't it you can just implement a order in the next release before.

G

We go there like, so that we talked about socialization, the generation.

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Progress the thing we're: okay, with the name this one we said, we want a different name right.

G

I, walk in civilization,.

C

Or maybe just third party salivation right, like internally, we have like third valid operation in Section, five yeah.

E

They use you that there's an if check in that method, yeah and maybe throw if looked visualization and Jamie raised a question. Oh.

C

Sorry, students mentor: what about you know check form what PC realization right, because the family throws arguably an implementation thing. It can terminate a person, don't.

E

Really because I mean like you want to be able to handle the potentially the exception on the call side right.

F

Right, I think it's just this sense of being convenience thing and some want to determine all this thing. Does it's one line right? It's if deserialization progress throw new dangerous deserialization exception, but someone wanted to fail fast. They could do 50 serialization in progress, environment, I, fell, faster, ended.

A

Up reading the kinis method, because when I had to fill in a bunch of targets, I was writing that same block over and over and over yeah. Although I suppose we could also talk quickly about so there's a little bit of difference between audience on on start to serialization and then the second cue. So the first one is you're a serial Iser.

A

The second two is you're a gadget or a target, and so, if we don't think it'd be interesting for to have something available for third party gadgets or targets which I don't have the stronger case, for we could also have those.

A

What do you want to expose so close? Exposing starkly serialisation means that a serial either can say, hey. Please engage all of this machinery, the civilization in progress and throw on dangerous deserialization are four gadgets and targets to say get me out of here right so making it a public API means that if there were a third party gadget or target that wanted to protect itself, it could that I don't have a strong case for that I. Don't know. Oh it's.

C

Everything for.

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C

If sorry I remember this in your design, but all the situations in which these serialization of herders would return through and I would choose not as whether, like I haven't even astounded by the point check. My first thought is actually one of these three things I think is really safe or.

E

Anything that I could imagine being guarded with this is wasn't right like what is the changes that you want to compile and run. He shall put on the fly to India civilization was ready, yeah. You can see all these straightforward.

F

Presume as well like in processed, uh he talked about the whole teacher gets turned on and then they're compact lines or quirks to turn off individual things. So, presumably in process thoughts start. It won't use to me throw on dangerous T sterilization it'll say if T serialization in progress and process flag is true still true, then throw.

A

Like a an F context like for the specific to should restart processes, yeah so I think what I did for those kinds of things was. If this app context flag is set, then call throw on dangerous to civilization exception. It's obviously not that big of a difference by the time you already have the f-block, then what.

C

Did we decide on the throw because I'm thinking now just been thinking about the two? It makes sense for it to be throw P civilization on for this? Is that what we decided? So what I haven't a little clearer sanitation in progress.

F

But I would love it at those. Two names were the same, except one began with throw right. Yes, it's.

E

Basically, I have a fool: if theorization infers her, then it's something that's what and I think the only thing I could imagine is that we add a string argument for a switch or something I took, so they.

A

Don't have to do that yeah! We could do that if it takes a string argument that will hurt her for a little bit right because F context switches are actually cached, so they're just like check a static pool, so the taking a string would mean it has to go like the dictionary lookup or something like that. Well,.

E

I think that's one of those things that we need to make sure I think in the when we actually make a granule iron core and see like how would you hold of individual things check for for their app compat switches right, we need to figure out I.

A

Mean you be clear: the the implementation is all but done in desktop at this point. I think we've done all that stuff. It's just like polishing off a couple, tiny things. So this is based off of having built all of this and that's doable. Are you gonna go back to so that's checked in before a your router? No there's going to be your and the checking mechanics but yeah it's it's! It's good to go under as we get it in there. So.

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D

Question that, because this, the sterilization talking meet the explicit.

D

D

Or something I mean.

A

The class has an internal constructor, but it's not in the API. This internal.

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A

If you don't type anything into c-sharp, yes, but it won't work. So are you saying like when I go to check in a contract, for this, do I have to write something? Internal training can I get.

A

Jeremy also raised the a reasonable question of should be serialization. Co can actually be a public type or should start to hero station. Just return and I guess possible. I wasn't sure what the deadline would.

E

Be so the court, until the only reason why having a different type would be useful is, if you want to avoid the other location you just.

A

Make it a struct which I don't really want to do, because basically, the existence of these things is what what keeps is what's allowed to turn deserialization back off. And so, if you end up with sort of multiple copies of the struct and you just post them separately and what.

E

Depends on what instruction I, when I looked at the imputation server Jeremy it look like the the only thing that the struct holds is a reference to manage object, yeah, which should then call the ring dispose. Even if you copy the struct around at the end, nothing object can only be disposed once like there's.

A

No hope in their spending, the underlying object is, is actually where the sort of state for the thread is true.

E

The point is like, if you, if you do multiple times like you, don't have like if there's no boolean in the dissertation, this.

C

Is all predicated on you on a horn allocation and very much a sterilization? Is a machine for making lots of objects really fast? Sorry just have to make one object before you call the object, creating machine. That's.

F

Fair I mean take this.

C

E

I mean I think.

F

You heard do it I do I find me that's true, but imagine imagine that there was a feature added to utf-8, Jason reader or something you some D serializer, where this was needed. That would be an extra allocation in a case where maybe we can't afford it, isn't.

A

That serious you're also supposed to create objects.

F

We not necessarily imagine that the whole payload is a bunch of structs.

A

Actually do that without allocation, that's a cool trick.

A

F

Depends on how you do it without what.

A

Exactly the happy semantics in the game for this well.

E

Like the way he detected the katakana, he showed me literally I only had one field yeah and it's an object reference that seems fine innistrad, like you, think, there's no shadowing. There's no.

A

It's more about just yeah what what exactly happens when you devil dispose! This like well, double-disc, amazing,.

E

Being a sign, yes,.

A

E

You should be able to do that. Yeah.

A

Or I mean not just double dispose, though, like it will, but.

D

I just want to go check. My.

F

Thing I think my back would be if this object is actually storing meaningful state, like you know whether it's been disposed or not, and that can't be pushed down into other objects is creating. Then it makes sense to just get rid of the type and return by disposable. If all this ends up being, is you know a wrapper for some other reference type, and this dispose is just calling that disposed and there's nothing else. That's the guy is doing then having it be. A public struct is probably there.

F

E

E

All right, let's write anything else, we're in the API shape.

F

Does it need a does? The exception need a string enter exception, constructor.

F

Well, thank you so much and when these exception, when these constructors are used, but generally the you know, the guidance for exceptions is they have.

F

You know enough parameter lists one with a message and one with a message in the inter exception. Obviously this one's already special, but it's not taking a message. It's taking us, which name yeah.

E

That's the only thing that someone has questioned whether it's this all argument exception, I forgot, which one it is. One of them has the message and the argument that the parameter name swapped, which always troops me off yeah.

A

I mean if there's anyone a different way to do this. That's fine! So this idea with the switch name, one is just simply add a different string that says, if you don't want to throw out of process, then use the process.

H

E

Munson seems odd, like you, shouldn't have.

F

One right I'm wondering if, if that would just be like, if we just did the normal thing, parameterless message: mesozoic exception, you can pass whatever message you want, including the switch name. Okay,.

A

And then just make the caller responsible for coming up with checking if we use the helpers, everything is B sterilization in progress. Do.

F

Whatever would.

A

There be any objection to having a factory for that I'm, just thinking about managing that thing and kind of beating it in a bunch of places.

E

While what would be wrong with just literally having the album I said like? What? Would you ever fabricate the exceptional or throwing.

E

Like we have this help or like throw of utilization in progress right, yeah yeah, if you want to fabricate the exception with the predetermine string, you just call that one. Why would you ever just fabricate the exception and not 12 wait or interion.

A

So I have okay, so two strings: one is the district string and one is a string that has somewhere to insert a switch name. Yeah.

E

I would expect that is insane. I mean if we, if we support granular checking I would I would expect. We would have a throw helper move. The ability to check for that as well. Okay and then you'd have an overload to throw of Ferguson that actually, you know LC to pass the string or what about the representation of the of the switches and then that gap ever gets the right string.

D

What is the exception, see realize I'm just kind of periods, they all are.

E

Chimeric example, is you do remoting and you want to travel the excel? They are on the other side or between app domains. So, basically all exception is your logical. It.

A

Doesn't contain anything.

H

H

Fish, the construction of the.

H

E

You you I will keep with the type where we added on I think civilization influence. The primary container seemed sensible to me, although that's again, like wine, reformative, specifically I, don't think anybody really cares. He was an alternate ease in your type.

E

Hey all right, then I think so I, don't know how to best track this. What I would probably do is I will just publish the notes and I say so. What's what's missing or what is what remains to be done is remaining work, agree on default policy.

H

Provide will help our switch.

F

Sorry, just back to your previous question, one other thought would be their system, runtime, serialization format or services. I realize for matter is, you know a different named and serializer, but it also seems like a reasonable landing place. Okay,.

A

Yeah, that has.

F

And one is equally, though, you know they're both tied to binary format or in a way so I, just another option of a landing place for a bunch of static helpers. It's true.

A

Yeah me neither of the news, but.

E

Formatter is only for the for the for the direction where you see realized right. It's not for the digitalization per se right but I guess that's can be said about the class correlation.

F

Also has enough pretty sterilization, because it has, for example, get an initialized object.

A

And one other thing that I'd want to double check that it just don't know how.

F

This, how the layering workout.

A

For that in core, so since I have to be able to call these things from a lot of places, I'm hoping for something in Cortland or or otherwise be far down, yeah.

E

That's a good point, so there's a really matter: services.

A

E

Civilization employ thing is in : is and because that says to be used by every frickin exception and then what matters services for the rebel binary form. Where is no addiction sister month and civilization? Kilometers well,.

F

We've got a little bit of a weird setup: we've got an internal rotation in core lid, that's been exposed with on runtime helpers and then the for matters in core effects calls that thing. So it's a little bit of a hack.

A

Yeah, the probably one actually isn't the full class it just has get an initialized object. The public classes must be up in corvex somewhere. Okay,.

E

So that would mean that for internal purposes we have a we have it effectively in caller, but for public API purposes. We wouldn't have that right, so we would have to so in that sense, if you want to make this public, it probably is better off on civilization info, because that's already in system runtime.

J

Problem make sure, assuming we don't want to make any type, which I think is the reason why thank you, Claire, yeah I would I would say that to acceleration is not the area that needs more times.

E

All right so then I think that was it to provide the wave of a switch agree on default policy and then agree on.

K

Whether or not we make these API is public in no net worth video. For that.

F

Part that I'd love it if we could have some customers that are actually you know, sort of on board to use them, and if we do great, let's make them public but button. Well, then I so be sure. You know I think we should attack it from that perspective. Yeah.

E

You said you already have the PR in progress for the full, firming implementation or the two pastas, which is there. You don't have a granular all. Do you nope, don't make a move yet. No.

A

I did know that, um so they are at context which is onion full frame or um in part, because we can't do API work there and I.

E

Know I guess you don't call the floor helper because you cannot call the API I, knew it right. I.

A

Mean I knew Felder, throw help that righteous like I'm full framework. I can't make things public staff to use reflection internally, but right they still use it. So you.

E

Have the traits the well, but that takes.

A

The string is then.

E

A

You know I have. This is the API that I have internally right now there, so it like, if you want to throw with the other string. Oh I see what you're saying um that was actually one of the things that I hadn't dealt with was like the up stack thing that had to call by a reflection, but where I wasn't using reflection, I was just mooing up the exception type, not using the helper I see.

E

The basically no, like you, basically know what feature you your are, so you check the corresponding, have contact switch and that is set or not set, and on mechanics you throw you, don't throw yeah. That makes it alright. So then, okay, so it straight forward, then yeah I think the only thing which about we start with implementation, never work on the core of X and then, like imperil, you know, continue the conversation you started with with James. You know this probably the first one way it would make sense.

E

A

The one thing that he he sort of expressed in terms of reservations again early in the conversation, was it's not available on all of the things that he targets. I'd also be an adoption blocker for him. Yeah.

E

Although, like in his case, like the way he's done with the problem, the devildis in the classes, he calls everything my reflection right, like I mean he like, for example, he can handle all the immutable collection times we have and you just discovers them by or it's this type name this one and then okay, I call this method over there. They don't know and I could say so we're not going to help the performance, but at the same time you can cash a bunch of stuff and like they.

E

The other interesting thing is that I, as you said like like in Jason I, think the only case would that would matter is basically the one when you actually have type information, but everything else wouldn't matter so I. Think that's the other question I do. Are we aware of any other cylinder that has basically type identity breakage to the payload? Yes,.

A

There there are third-party sterilizers, the two that I don't recall any of the names off the top, but that same Friday. The 13th presentation has a very nice table of various serializers and exactly what problems they don't have in this area.

A

You, including both Microsoft and ended up site supervisors,.

A

E

You, okay, I, guess: Jeremy has the list as well right, yeah I think that it is instead of next step. So then I will consider this improve the feedback. With the caveat that we have to figure out like when and how. But that seems fine all right, then, if there are more more questions, so let me check with anybody here, questions online but doesn't sound like it. We were running about audio for 20 minutes because there Trey only when I set it up.

E

I did not pay my audio source, so you only have audio for the last these like about 40 minutes. At this point, all right, then I called you today and then I see you guys next Tuesday.