.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 19 Dec 2017

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From YouTube: .NET Design Reviews GitHub Triage

Description

We're looking at issues that are ready for review: https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Aapi-ready-for-review

A

B

C

This is all the ones here. Thank God I, make.

D

C

Yes, so since you feel so many about.

E

The order with what you wanna do, let's go from the bottom height.

C

Fighters giggles two hours which one actually Mel come on, which one edge method or the sockets one edge. Undone the circuits.

F

C

F

Is this one racism that does both.

C

All right, oh paid, patches, an actual work. Yes,.

G

H

Edit helpful, you should maybe working doc, it's kind of its kind of like put, but generally it's used when you're merging information, and rather than replacing it myself. So. But what are you sending for that? There are like you, absenting, a payload that has like yeah. It has a request entity body, but instead of having say say that a like I want to update your dependence in an HR system. Instead of sending your entire employee record as part of the request, I would just send only the dependents field or something longer so.

C

Basically, it's the same as over, simplifying it's basically the same as put except that, because it is a different verb. You're kind of indicating the absolute information means. Don't I beans don't delete it. Josie on tables rises again.

H

Like help and waving fell yeah yeah maintenance is the only places that we have works, help and just to clarify. Nothing is blocked today, right because I'm pretty sure, there's.

I

A volcanic sure to right.

H

Away the example: it should.

I

Be mental idea, perfect! Okay, here you can do that. This is that you know enough people say that it's come on enough, so why not let it.

C

So the only thing is, we have the two overloads we have. Oh.

C

That's what we have for years may have to here, because we make reservations.

I

Like you know, I put them together, I think that's enough, but feel free to put back.

C

So the situation that we currently have- let me just direct this guy over here. Thanks- is.

B

That right, so we.

C

J

B

Bugger it I.

J

C

Then did always on the call right now so I don't even live in the call.

F

So I don't federal.

K

Plays on the life.

F

Streaming us 18 people watching. Okay, are you showing something.

L

F

It on this, unless you show your big foot.

C

So basically have this: today's we have those guys here, like I I, don't feel like. We need to follow that I'm fine, with just having optional arguments for that one, because it's effectively the same thing I, don't see a reason why we need to do that. Let's.

I

At least like the pattern, if you follow up in new api's, so here it's like questionable should be folder button on the class or should be followed. The pervy decide. What's.

M

N

Would be, but it would be a bit nicer if it followed the exact same pattern. Do we care about saving one of the you.

H

Know if I agree with her stuff on this I.

C

Think it would just work strange so personally, like I would say when in doubt always follow what the type already has over doing something new, but in general, like I, don't I can't think of a single downside to doing over the left-hand side, because when people don't really see the API is like this right. They see it and intellisense collapse by name, so you have to actually do a little them. The only test we would see this is dogs. I only say that, especially for dogs. This is actually somewhat annoying. If you see them twice,.

N

The damage has been already done, so I agree, yeah, you see them twice and then I think you know like somebody sooner or later will see them. Somebody will use reflection and we will be surprised that there are no two overloads and I think the value of saving. You know one method slot all right sign of flow.

J

C

I think we are going the other one.

H

This is not virtual.

C

Though, because they go through HP client, an extra gender or something which is effectively the question, I have is I, guess the abstraction there is just. It takes a message which has the perfect story already in it.

O

We go actually through.

P

I mean it's kind of nice, adding a new purpose. It we've just that, but I'm actually surprised it's. The.

I

Implementation will create actually like static static strength, so it's not regretted over and over again as the ol difference under the hood, the edge to be client handler doesn't care just get this drink so.

C

I thought all right, so then I guess the only feedback here it would be.

B

When, after the proposal to be this, I'm just editing it right so.

P

And if you just give the IP, if the fields are exactly the same, that's basically more! That's what David also updated.

D

All right- and it's in that.

D

I

See this one ah honorable duel, yeah we're trying to add two long overloads so basically there's an API that takes a 12-part file path. I, don't think it's correctly Kim, okay Scott case it's offset into the file, and you know over sockets. You just send that power. That piece of file there are seems to be. Sometimes there can be large files, so you need long offset modern for gigs right, and the only question is how to expose the long offset, um because we already are exposing the offset as int.

I

Should we expose something like offset long should be color differently. Oh I,.

H

Think we do have api's.

N

That are things like long line exposed, sir. So what why is the count int and not? Well, you.

M

Don't sound usually more than four gigabytes on the network over you.

N

M

N

This update again like if the file is already so long that doesn't fit into an int I can imagine the counter offset I mean I. Think I asked that uh remember all right. This.

J

N

C

J

You can still pass it in into groups.

H

Yeah we should just put the long and the future proof or the problem is I agree with herself again like if, if you have variables, if the color has variables which are starting and and both of those variables are long they're going to evaluate to a long once, you subtract them, which means you're now forcing the color to do a cast. So that's what I'm saying I think.

L

It should be along, you know, because you can still pass it pass. It.

M

L

M

That nothing matters like that. We have limitations.

I

We can actually do the check. You know in the API and.

C

Especially being a passive for me right so like the well.

N

It's on offset.

C

In the file, so so.

N

I think it, since someone were to happen, it's an upset in the file and then it transmits four gigs of data. Nobody for.

M

You like it can it can transfer down with ten bytes right or something I.

E

M

E

Five hours, probably like a matter of five seconds there, poop.

C

People like either have five ended up loaded would take like a week complete what what would the offset already.

H

Do if it's more than two gigs up.

J

Bro, it's good, let's chill on the other hands who would use that if they used along, we should do the same thing. That array a.

N

Length what does array length do when long length is long? Well, the it's a bit weird, because we cannot create arrays that are long long way. We added the property, but we didn't add the ability to create long right. Also.

P

We don't have any.

N

Accident actually takes a lot, so I get away, you're stuck there I know, but we have a long life property, which is basically the same issue. We have the length property and long time and I wonder what was the plan.

N

If you know what should we return from length when long length is I.

C

N

C

Just up problem.

H

We didn't have you.

L

Selling it along so.

H

Mst answers that a rate hotline frozen over for exception if it's out of bounds um or if it's.

N

Who wants that usually? Do first have to check the long lid yeah.

H

So her MST on the array, dot length, counts. The number of elements across all dimensions of the array and each dimension can have up to two gigabytes of up to billion elements. So you can imagine it would be possible to create a array with you know three times: 2 billion dimensions or three times two billion elements.

N

H

Probably the only I don't.

C

L

N

Time supports that so interesting, the funky meter, if we add the count long, we also need public long account long. Yet do we expose the count well, I assumed that the api's are basically, there are constructors, and then there are properties that tell you what you only.

C

Assuming is symmetric, yeah.

H

Would be right, just counters.

O

N

Oh boy, yeah I,.

I

Wonder if we shouldn't just say whatever you know, leave the counters end maybe provide the convenience of the eyes to possible. What's.

C

The problem discount, why would we not just leave it alone? Oh, we.

O

Cannot you need a flexible like countdown? What is the same as offset right, so it would be whatever that would be. It's.

N

Just this API, so you know it's it's just like they array and we talked about how screwed up the API SAR. How do you use an API where, like offset and count can throw like? Are they like? Are these 80s now obsolete like? Basically, how can you, how can you safely use the offset property after this change.

H

You would have to chuck before calling the property while driving.

L

H

Basically, first check the log of self: well, then, what would you get back this bill and so what what other alternative.

N

Is to have a some packets element, long class? Yes, so we could have a separate class and then have an abstraction interface, but then, like this, this type is used in some other API is correct. They would all have to be updated. So.

C

I think if we, if we make this base idiom, oh we should expose it moving. In my opinion, it sells like it's larger than four gigs or something no.

N

Once we expose the load properties, why would you ever access the other Oh everything becomes.

C

Weird, because now you basically that means basically what you want is this right. You basically say I call an existing API that the only deals with ends right, so that means I can only accept up to four gigabytes. So I can refuse this thing outright. Let's say like this is too large. I cannot handle that.

N

mmm But what are the existing API is? There are no existing API to take whatever code uses that API is an input right now and be sure that it's you create instance of this type, and you ask this type in not the other way. I'm.

C

Saying that customers could potentially do the same thing so my doll, we have sub string, I mean you don't pass and right segment in, but you basically have a ps2 taken in start and an in length and effectively. They just accept those guys right. So yeah I think it's weird who's. Using that.

N

Time like is it weird.

C

N

Properties say: I just checked nobody that would tell you whether somebody is larger than int mats. I mean there's a property. You can check it yourself, you say offset long greater than in mats, throw.

I

Or just try catch if you're lazy, the.

F

Bullying is prolly super flows. Is it send packet async.

I

It doesn't show up on our IP I stop nine-point.

N

Factly, it's never created, never like you create one of those and then you just pass it and the API that you pass it to will never access the offset property right. My offset property is now obsolete, literally.

C

Did we do similar things for other IO stuff? Like stream, though, may have the same problem there.

N

I don't know for streaming, it may be different, because I think we added some overloads correct that deal with lungs, not like a type that you pass in a.

C

N

C

Maybe lucky because maybe position already wasn't on a position where it wasn't wrong: three Jews were lucky and then lengths I guess is also long. It.

P

Turns out stream didn't up from the get-go.

N

Well so the other option, you know we started to talk about, we would add a new class and then abstraction and take an abstraction but I, don't think it's working entirely.

C

N

Types and it's just I think.

O

N

Just accept it, we don't have too long properties and the old properties are literally obsolete. We can apply the obsolete, attribute them or not. We probably should because it would be surprising to consumers so length.

H

By the way out, when it eventually goes into or 132 en vogue is AD word instead of a keyword, so we're never going to have long lights, just as a point of interest on windows on the vision.

N

Well, stir that I knew with those ApS and I can imagine so I can imagine what there, if you feel, if your count is longer than in max value, it would chant it and call the underlying API several times.

C

Actually, that's what you have to do anyway, side. Otherwise, your Fotolia to do today offers that.

P

A lot of it forbids ignore.

C

Which many Google I guess that makes sense in general, like you would always chunk it see the certain threshold, the.

I

Only argument for the count or language being long is the you know: hey I do stops. You know subtraction of two offsets and I want to have it easily. Above all,.

N

Right, I think that you have a very large file. You can send it to using one of those calls as opposed to you have to chunk a do. You know manually, you just create the structure and you pass it to send a saying: can you done underlying API just consent? You know three times.

C

I'm thinking with another tournament, you.

N

C

Api that accepts it somewhere, except.

N

I

For this, that's it that's the last. This is the next proposal actually to add. You know.

I

Over here, filestream.

C

Well, I would say if the goat on that pad I would do the other one I would just save you one more than.

E

Four gigabytes great, the one who takes the stream. It's.

I

Only Delta, so we could have DeLong offset over here.

C

No I would only do this. One I only do this one I'd say if you want to I, wouldn't even do floods. Remember just say stream, I guess what do we care that it's a file, the.

I

Reason was that the file stream is the you know. Underlying implementation is not exposed. That's a question. If we can turn it industry, you, the.

H

Api is optimized for passing in a proper file handle yeah, as opposed to reading for metal initialize.

C

hmm I see something we call the so they're passing the fussin. We never go through the fuzzum you just take out. Take the handle.

K

C

In the language of a pair yep.

C

C

In packets element becomes a weird API.

J

You can reject this one. Sorry, let's go.

C

Back to the let's not make this, how we go that I before we do this a what would that be trying for its, and we did also throw when Ukraine you construct it from this. What is the expectation if I do this one and this one we just constructed file stream on the fly it does already.

I

Construct a fast stream.

J

On you know before so actually.

I

It's not file stream you're right for the file path. It has to spawn stream for the byte array. It doesn't write so.

H

It would probe for the binary the internal consumer of this broken truck wall I'm, not.

C

Sure, if I like this, because if you combine this at the previous one base, 10 type of the type that has like even three modes yeah, exactly which which path you went through, you get it like vastly different behavior. Well, it doesn't seem like a great.

N

Design of the type also, it's meant to be like a data holder. It basically is a range of you know, bytes in a file, and now it starts having behaviors like it. You know it creates a file stream for you, the other.

H

Thing about file stream is this.

L

Is not takes ownership.

H

Of a shrimp, so you can never disclose it up.

I

It's basically the expert that you know, whoever calls it like knows better their own to that.

C

So, okay, let's start with this one here, so this scenario is very clear: they just want to submit files are gonna, be able to read these index into a file is better than 40 X, which seems like a fairly sensible thing.

N

To do well, except no, no, the to API start to type. So if we keep the file handle api's long count doesn't make sense. If we don't it does no, you can still chunk right. No.

C

N

Chunk because you take, you would put that you basically just do one windows, API call, you just pass the handle and you tell it like sent yeah, but then you just increment the offset for the chunk and you call the API again for the same. You can set them in the loop with the same handle. He said that the handle on what happens with the ownership. We called the way 30-day pians I.

H

Believe that the win32 API will require the caller to close the handle and the colors done in our case, the caller would be the interval socket implement. Okay,.

N

So that I thought I'm a mess and so I thought I was saying. I was thinking that he said that once you pass the handle to win32, they will cross after there. That also.

L

No I understand.

H

It is like this.

N

Yeah, generally speaking, most win32 api.

H

Is duplicate the handle first caution.

N

Okay, then we can do and I do think that we should do the long one to never ever. Have this gate.

C

Seven, okay, so we have this ABI here. We basically just have these guys right and then the other one was the faster more like I, don't quite understand what side of the past few minutes. Basically,.

I

Setting up you know, caching can like or other system things that you need access to the handle. That's the point.

E

So what caching, what is it over? Our second paragraph fix.

P

C

See what I understand with that statement, those like as soon as you call the API, you transition ownership of that thing over to to the socket API, it's right. So it's a like! You can only catch one side right and things that.

N

I'll see now I understand what they're saying so there are so many when you open the file stream or file Hindu. There are so many options, so we would have to either put all these options into this type or it basically types that consume this type. Are you talking about this right here like we would have you know there are so many different options and they would have to show up on the API or you just let people like open file stream. However, they want I think whatever options they want and then we just stories.

C

This one I bar, like I, was thinking of this one here, which I didn't quite understand, because if you on, if.

B

C

To this socket API, like you're cashing, is not like that yeah use for it. That's not it's.

N

C

N

Options, oh yeah, that.

C

One leave many options. Make sense, is okay,.

N

I that make sense.

N

She sent so on socket I, think it completely makes on socket. Now. Why do we need constructors on sand pocket element so.

C

The way this API works is that you basically so they don't show your idea so.

Q

This is an API.

C

Called sent over this business see.

N

C

N

I think I mean they don't want to repeat.

N

They don't want to have an API on picking send file, for example, that takes the handle and the element. The element is kind of like a holistic part package of the handle and offset and count yeah.

C

Is the thing I don't understand is that they already, we already have an API that visit it takes that so the way this works today.

C

So basically you pass it here is the socket acing event, arcs and I think they still holds the element right. So this would basically your one-off thing. No I mean this is a class in the one of the class. You have two locations for that: I. Don't know whether that actually matters when you're transmitting large file, but that's one of the things it may matter, but that, like what I understand like what do we have? Why will we add this API rather than you know, take the eggy element directly or some other data holder.

N

Simplify if you want to transmit the whole file, you just call this API.

C

But or alternatively, instead of us adding a shit-ton of a pianist to this element team, we could add a struct based descriptor that you can design to be. You know long from the get-go, so we don't have this mode problem and then you just change those methods to accept that guides that they don't even allocate it is causing instructor. Then you just have the same information, but then you can, you know: I have pal stream bass, you can have its thin base and you just don't have that problem.

C

Since clean it to me, then trying to Cora so many things on this one time here.

P

Overload on what on send file and begin some foul on socket? Well, this one and then this one internal accent, acing seems a bit.

P

Haven't order the.

C

Annex, I think, is a it's like.

C

C

The in has elements.

P

It isn't a rail those guys. Well, that's amazing, so you can.

C

Yeah, maybe not.

C

Yeah is a new type that we would have to also find a way. We can pass him this guy here and getting a Glee mmm-hmm.

N

H

N

You cannot just add a new property here, because then you have a problem in which order they are getting sent, I'm, pretty sure that the contract for these methods says we take this awry and send them in order before.

C

We I mean what you could do. Is you put a few new property, let's say, send packets element along or something yes.

P

C

You can either set this one on this one just set both of them. We throw and say, like that's, an invalid request, and then we just say you know if you, if you only specify this one, but not a long one, whether or not one can be from this one, because it's a implicit conversion and otherwise you put in the other, so the cure is worse than the disease. In this case the other hand bill, like I, don't know having motes on this type, I'm, not sure it's better. You just have fewer types.

C

I, don't take your federal semantics. We have modes in some other place yeah, but the most the other place are I would argue easy turn your send, because basically, this other thing is just a request holder. Well, you pass in the later and you call a method. It's like you know, like process started before it set set, set, call no.

K

Pass this guy only don't.

C

Know anything advanced right.

F

R

F

C

Seems like a tonne of a penis to me.

N

So, actually, you know this send packet element. The fact that it's gonna have molds I think we cannot avoid it to some extent. It's okay, I'm, not concerned about slapping more api's on socket, like it's already kind of busy and I think it would be nice if we didn't add so many api's for advanced scenarios.

N

Listen or controlling buffer sizes and sending very long files at very long offsets I wonder if it's possible to hide as much of it as possible into this chart into their small class I.

I

Meant that when we looked at it I think I actually don't remember looking at the socket API solos, so in networking in a way peer review, so I wouldn't be I will cry if we did show socket part yep.

C

You will be division.

P

1, likewise,.

C

Api's are there I? Did they I could see them I, don't know what they're called through what if they base it just conveniences to call the other API I would agree with you stretch it, because if you're not super convenient to call either sitting the temp of arguments, they take the big insight if I like the old, a sink right so.

M

C

I mean that gives us okay 10 photo as it has a file free buffer transmitted, followed by like if this is actually just calling another API directly that basic just amongst to giving the five head.

Q

C

It may be more efficient to call right because the other one, if this requires you to construct the sent packets element, there's not a small type anymore. It is it posit to construct the the.

N

Event accessing it was also ginormous type so, but I think we could start with just adding the socket packet element api's, and if people complain about performance which I kind of surprised, I mean you're, dealing with networking and sending large files I think creating one object. One more object on the heap is not such a big deal and we start with the simpler API. If people complain, we add more, in other words suckers right so like it doesn't have to go over the.

C

Physical, everybody might just be look back. Do the same system, just basic Nora thought. I can see you right, which is relatively efficient.

N

If that's what it is, you shouldn't be using sending files, you should send the file name and the other side can just access the file and.

C

If you own the protocol- maybe I guess yeah I'm, not sure like I, mean obviously the overall complexity of this I, don't think is taking a hit one way or the other. So we just take this guy here and just look up what the result would look like. So we have this one here. So, let's just.

A

Let me just reorder this a little bit. Oh I see but.

N

C

The offsets, and so those are the ones you already have, so we're not planning on anything with those. um So those are the ones you would add now we would also add.

P

These guys here right, so we would have.

C

So if that so that would mean they would have.

P

That one any would also have.

N

In addition, we need to change. Should we change the offsets too long in the stream? Okay, so I was about to say, I believe, need the advanced ones.

H

Here well, are we keeping the filestream constructors because they're still they're still the ownership question, because once you pass a file stream into this API, you have you can't touch it over again, but you're.

I

Responsible, actually, are you not responsible for.

C

This cool it's true, but it's the only way you can pass in the options right. Otherwise, you need basically an API that takes the file plus everything file stream. Constructor takes like: what's sharing, do you have? What caching do you want to use right like this? This is absolutely like. The you know you control, essentially how Windows, who access the file at construction of the hand online?

C

They can own people I, don't think people today, given what the guy rode care about. Caching, the files to instance, is all about controlling how its created, like.

O

C

Why not have some to handle? Because we don't believe because the problem is I, guess you could.

H

Do that, but I did seems weird I would do that because you care about the handle more than anything else right, I.

L

Mean we have a file handle type? What does itself would travel in this itself if we take handle instead of five soon its.

H

It as a gut check, it seems like you, would make it less likely. The people would try to catch the other one use them mmm I. Don't.

C

Know I mean the answers welcome today, by the way, like stream, reader stream writer. When is lose deposit positive to then they start owning that guy. So it's a if it's an established pattern. It I mean it is a great pattern to be clear like especially for file readers and others way. You sometimes surprised to in align extreme with this post when you disclose the reader but I. Think in this case I. Don't think you are surprised per se they're just like is he all you all you would do with the call site?

C

Is you would just change that of passing in you know stream? You would pass in stream. Don't handle right, yeah like I mean, but everything else who looks the same so I don't know. The question is just whether we need these guys here right because I mean for consistency. We would need that.

N

Oh I think we should remove the ones that take in you now in advanced scenario, land yeah here.

C

N

I will just cut this guy down would only have the long ones so do we need the ones that take string files, a string file, power, I guess I'll go.

I

J

I

C

You're saying, if you want to have long once, you have to use a file stream yeah, maybe.

N

It's maybe it's, it's fine delete them. They.

C

Are safer to me, the problem: is these guys right? Those guys are not the problem right, let me know, and even if you have to have those guys anyway like should we add an overload that takes just this.

N

String file path.

H

That exists already ya know. It exists, we're on the son packets element on this. Ok, ok, basically, zero and zero as metric values means son. The whole thing.

N

What does the end of packet mean? Means I, mean end up packet here.

I

B

I

You know saying like it was lost and train the arcs or something like that means after.

C

N

What are the semantics in.

S

N

C

Maybe clothes on the line, the years of them.

I

Okay, I guess I think it's probably about you know not you. This flag is used to granular control of the content of each message on a Datagram or a message. Oriented socket so like send the message. Basically don't wait for more data or something like that, I, don't know why we don't. Maybe it's like from the you know, all a sync style timeframe and we didn't have just the array in the RX, but the acts as.

N

We I was just wondering whether it does something with the handle like differently very close.

H

N

To close it or.

H

Specifies that this element should not be combined with the next element in a single send request from the socket layer to the transport yeah. Okay,.

L

H

I think that's exactly what.

L

You just said out and yeah something it's both.

N

So I will observe it in offset and count are.

H

We allowed to absolute thanks.

K

B

May be a frozen video again as.

C

It seems to me wish, for we should I mean this is one example where I think absolution is reasonable, because you're literally just saying, don't call this one call this other one over here. It's on the same type.

N

Caption- and you don't even know about it right.

C

So what the always want, the only what the old one always saw. No, no.

N

Will only throw for ya, it would only throw a net over flowers, but it is a big surprise if you don't do the.

C

Not a breaking change, because something a new process has to change whether you operate at least one component of using the new api's. So it should be speaking.

N

About a breaking change on the API on the getting this time from somebody, and you know well.

C

It's a breaking change from the API contract standpoint, but another breaking change from an application standpoint, because you had to upgrade at least something in your process called the new API. So you have changed something so at that point all bets are off what.

I

If you come from the library of course, very unless you consumed library that upgrades you've.

N

Got to update to a new version of the library, that's seamless, yeah yeah. If.

C

B

I mean it's never an in-place at the airport right because yet you.

C

Might not care about networking.

B

At all, like, oh my gosh like right, so in case it's a I would say it's a different. Well.

I

Then you don't get the obsolete, it errors right library, well,.

C

For your code, only if you use it exactly so like if you have like this case, where you have a and B and like a calls B. But you are just using ANP and director that you never know. But.

N

Like that's just, but if you not access, if you're not accessing these properties, you just pass this type through. You don't have a problem yeah. The problem is, if you're actually accessing these properties, but you got the type. You know the instance from some other library, then you may be surprised that suddenly it starts growing and what I mean basic.

C

Hellspawn is one long lines of like if you your as an app developer, you may never call any of these API right, like you may have, but one not the other, where the other one hasn't, even when you version yet so now, one guy is basically processing larger files, but, like it seems like a very you would have to work really hard about the scenario where you, first of all, you hit this case and secondly, like I think it's very weird to have libraries that do that sort of thing like it's, not a library scenario.

C

I would argue so.

N

The only thing kind of against obsoleting, so I, imagine, let's say I'm writing, sockets and or my own wrapper for sockets I get one of these types. I read the buffered property is not know, so somebody just passed me in the right cell I would rather access the offset and count properties because then I don't have to cast an apple store water that will still work and it will always work. Yes,.

N

It's only basically when I'm in that file stream mode, then I shouldn't be accessing the content of set properties.

N

Yeah, and that is where the mode model property of this type kind of kicks in I,.

I

Don't think we should obsolete, we should like absolution via the API. Compositor is fine. You know we get bitten by observation like reported to to.net framework eater v remove the absolution or we keep it there. Then it breaks someone. People are based not worth it. I.

N

Mean the negative is that some people will not know, and they will tell us and soft I would say like soft operationally what sort of service we.

I

Have tools to do that which currently are not enforced on you and it's ignore about easily enough solutions. Not it's a warning and many people have like you know, treat errors as trees warning as errors. That's you.

T

Know so they chose not to Paris. Yes, it chose not to ignore it. I see.

N

I don't know I'm torn a bit.

I

Is the absolution the only discussion we have now well.

P

Basically, the behavior specified these properties will.

K

K

P

I suppose what they will throw is not supported.

C

We have trouble is somewhat overthinking in any way the sunset I, don't think user couple every use, whether long.

N

Or I mean maybe not never, but only people who in rap like they create complicated wrappers for sockets or some other I. Suppose it's true is.

M

The minority of the experts scenario already in.

B

The only case I could think of people actually access. This is like for asserts or something.

C

While you're there testing but I mean in application code, you construct the package and yeah.

J

C

Welcome I, don't know it's not really that bad yeah.

N

Let's leave them uh nope saluted because it would be very.

N

You will have to do like rain Jackson.

C

The other hand, if what I said is to up solutions also known but fully doesn't matter it's all about. This I will respond to this one here.

H

We're going simples, you should also update the documentation to kind of explain what the end of packets is for. If we're touching this anyway.

H

I am MSDN actually gives a good news case for it, but it's varied. Okay,.

H

Because the underlying stack could combine payloads together into a single larger packet, but sometimes your protocol has a hard limit at something like 40k and that flag tells the networking stack. Don't consolidated like actually treat this as if.

I

You Phonics are, can you send me link or ideally file a documentation, bug whatever well.

M

I

For the link, but it can combine it with previous- is the end of packet basically says like don't come by right.

N

But don't come by the subsequent right, yeah, the previous one, yeah yeah. If I find.

M

The previous one, with this one or no, this one is lost yes, so the tossing is like. Oh, don't combine anything after this one yeah.

N

But that doesn't that doesn't solve the problem that you were saying.

H

It does in this, and so the documentation didn't explicitly say the word nag lien, but I assume it means disable. Megwin.

N

Yeah, it's just you have to manually what I'm saying you have to manually count how many without end of packages.

H

A manual right.

N

H

H

H

One finding this again.

P

So what should.

I

File stream over to do so to construct, we have actually we have buffer and file path for writing. So they should. It should be the same thing like you know. If, if you put, if you don't bounce buffer, if you pass for pot for pot, it's gonna return knowledge. You lie just check it, so I think the vision becomes a stunt. Now the question is: if we should expose the file stream in case, you are passed us only. The file path, so I would say, I would I would basically say.

I

Oh my god, only a few weeks. You know it gives you whatever you are created the object with so.

M

Is a file path that property on this type of this and offer as well? This.

I

M

Another like we have basic already, it has only the multi. You know modes think it's basically a Union, yes, byte array.

N

Three string and the stream.

N

So, okay, well one more thing that I just thought about: does it work just for file streams or it works for any handle that you can read the underlying with ready to API, because I wonder whether this stream property, the stream parameter, should not be stream, not file stream.

C

But soon is not the.

N

Austria hoping it I see well that would go back to the vise comment. Maybe it should take a handle, but.

H

What other kind of handle would it take aside from the file handle one at that point whose final string courier suggestion can hear.

C

Korean psycho cat handle me to the paper, but I think you can already constructed path stream, yeah.

H

You can stage, it will just go, and you can we look at the win32 API, actually different.

E

Wrench the packets is a member vgap are.

C

Q

C

Everything is a 500 right so, like you can always give us a network handler or something really, you could what we can start to the moment. An African.

N

Can you go actually tool in that transmit file in.

H

C

H

C

H

To the APO in kolender package, your packet Hackett's thank its. It.

N

Will basically say what what other valid valid handles.

H

So it takes over that structure, so this yeah, that's the structure that were passing in a apologize. Okay, you've.

N

H

The other of your eyebrow.

N

And okay handle to and open.

N

Yeah I wonder if they literally mean file or somebody who wrote the doc when.

C

Windows is more less the same thing like it. You make everything.

N

C

N

Handle some more than five handles when.

L

I my listening.

C

L

Has a buffer essentially is conceptually about.

N

Well, the point is that our file stream does not work with an auditory handle.

N

This API takes an arbitrary handle that you can read from then our API would will not work for those handles, but I mean I, keep Ollie called each file and write.

C

File when you pass in a handle to that gives you a VM file stream and choline and white and the covers we just call create file. So our read file in white file right and so we never windows, accepts and relies on those API.

N

Is polish it will support? I am Not, sure I think we have I, remember being some discussions about our files do not being so.

T

Flexible flexible.

I

We have can read, can see in what is it related to this Roy? Would.

P

We change are used to discussing the stream, but or no passing.

I

Handles are so small stream.

P

So the only question I would have is, let's say we take handle certified stream. What does it work cross, but we have the same concept there.

C

P

C

Edraan, it's fine! What does handle do on five stream when we validate this.

H

Is severe even work cross for fostering the thing, so it.

P

Does no not not oil.

H

Stream I administer this particular I.

I

Think sokka's, yes, I've seen unit UNIX, implementations, yeah.

N

It's such a awesome scenario to do in the character as opposed to user mode. Basically, what it does. It just tells the cabinet to send these files, so it doesn't have to go like any data into user mode and then go back to Canada multicenter.

A

If it moves data straight from the hard drive into the neck, yeah.

H

By completely by.

N

Well, let's leave it as file stream. I. Think like the scenario of sending something from non file, handles either doesn't work or is very far-fetched.

C

I

So anything else, there know that you know similar to body.

I

Rakh, so what we're so the filestream is. Basically, the motivation is that it's similar to buffer behavior of buffer and file paths. Forget it I'm, not sure.

P

C

N

Down right, oh, can we do the broccoli one I just saw.

I

It shouldn't we do a brief discussion on the iqueryable thing that we have to go over here: okay, yeah! Let's do it! Oh! If.

P

You don't have mats as well, so was he uh said he tries his best to represent that I. Actually.

R

Side with mats and dismantle that mean.

C

We can take a look at them. We can't discuss it more if they have to I mean.

R

C

Coming I, don't think he is I, don't.

K

Even think he's.

C

K

Alone, actually, oh.

C

Here we go so generally speaking, so my concern with this API is pretty simple. Like I would say to me, it seems a bit odd that we had ideas here, that we don't adhere specifically the one that returns these guys. It seems odd. The second thing is the pattern itself, I think borne some discussion, whether we want to do this at all, um but it's say if you would remove those ones from the discussion for now. The remainder looks sensible to me. No problems with that.

N

Well, so I might.

I

N

Later, if you will do at this pattern or not so I, this is a kind of comment that I would have is I, don't think we have any try, API, Sun, link and I. Think. The reason is that people like to change these 8d skulls, so most of these ATMs, a I could imagine them. Instead of this being try, we use Nala boo, because knowledge can be chained. You can basically do you know value or default. Then you end up with a default value. You can keep changing them. There's never. First.

L

Your XM %, if all you can't, you can't tell right, because okay so of.

R

Internship return, zero and sort of this pattern in general. Doesn't work link and that's the reason that first or default similar evil exists, a the only advantage value of this API so differentiating case in which you got a null value from a case in which you actually didn't find a value. So why would we not return Allah boy instead of doing try baby is so novel is because not a will has that problem that you cannot two difference between something being now and something not being there ago. So.

L

R

H

If you have it, a verbal of object is the first are in your elegant way. It knows about value.

R

Thus your yeah yeah, so so that's that's what the motivation for being in this API to existence is but I personally, don't do that. That's enough.

C

Elements in general, like even this API, is a generic. You don't know what the debated type or the reference type. She can't do, not above T or less T is the very time yeah so again, I'll, oh, it wouldn't work function.

R

Of ticket, if you scroll down, they got that optional obtain. It could be.

C

A bad thing yeah I could eat. You could.

R

Either this is.

C

Kind of what it is right, like freeze the video by the way, yeah okay.

N

So III see that would be it yeah, I kind of like I, don't know whether that tuple one works but I kind of don't like try api's with out parameters, something I just think it doesn't fit like if enters was in the room. He would probably say what I'm doing so.

R

What is Warren had a comment all that he explained that if you let's say I just put this this call inside a nested inside a linked query. Then you are forced to share that out. Parameter is with in all the calls that you make it when you are iterating over turns fault, yes and then the query we can start affecting and then basically the whole paradigm of thing blows up like you cannot execute in parallel anymore, but basically it no other thing in Inc, as I said that this is like one.

C

Actually, let's see so that would almost argue that the ones it takes out later with it so the old ones themselves are they're. Basically, almost non starters I would argue.

R

Cleaner problem I mean I'm, not trying to argue in favor of the adding this API, but they problem with that argument is that if you make couple the double version, the only one that we add, then it kills. The usability that they were trying to do add is basically the whole point of this API is that is sure to do this thing of trying to get the first value with the option to know whether there wasn't the first value there right in just one step and efficiently.

R

If you make it then check for the couple, then kind of flexibility of the API also goes away. I mean I. Don't like the try pattern here and now now it's a little nicer because you can enjoined it do.

N

We have a code sample that explains.

C

The song that you just made like what why anything is less useful, because I think the one that returns, the top was probably the most usable in the sense that give a singer variable with. Basically, basically, it's the same as the option of tea right yeah. They.

L

C

A single value where you can alter the value exists, and so you can basically do it in a in a linked fashion pretty easily, because the whole thing becomes an expression with no side.

H

C

H

You to capture that return value is a local. You can't do in a single if statement.

H

Well, you can, because you can do a pattern, much of the cell yeah. You know the pattern matching requires you to have a to captured as a local is about.

C

And then how they show like only the single you look like if.

H

If my queryable dot try get first blah-blah-blah out value.

H

C

Twice Engel as X and X succeeded, and then it does it and.

R

Also same thing,.

C

R

Sunny so it's a ser a bit more fault honestly, that Indiana is not much nicer than taste. Try with the out that I Rea mean it's not terrible. That I in the first place, I'm not sure that that many people.

R

I might not have been there and there are other ways: I mean if you, if you really want to do this, you can take the ienumerable or the wearable a get. The numerator and iterate iterate once I mean get the move next right, Ethel see if there is something there and then if there is another move next, for instance,.

R

C

Of this is a group of like first support for last hand.

N

Sex everyone, but so if we had it option of T we it would be, it would solve the problem correct. It would be nice usability wise and it would already she has the same problem as the tap alright. That can be no.

O

N

It works in then, maybe the optional people, even just think that has two properties right like well.

M

No, no, no so an optional meetup would be like name stop all right. That's.

I

The depth runs, it.

R

Would look just a bit nicer, they will say well, no, it would be what really the cause will would look more nicer. No chief, there works yeah, a well-known typed. A good sense know.

C

That I think on estate to me, like so the only argument, my opinion for having option of T rather than this couple thing is said to me: tuples, you don't understand because they make the API is look fairly busy because it's very hard to parse any also.

N

C

N

Have AP ice on them versus option of T could have basically same API, says no level of T. When you have are your default methods ready.

C

Like the other thing is, you cannot enforce consistent naming because it's purely you know, convention that used to claim its success and way you name it like forward bar or not aiming at all. It was about it, in which case it's hard to document, a concept that is literally like convention right. It's very easy to document the FBI and say use option of T for cases X&Y the.

F

Only thing is every.

C

Single time we talked about, option of savannah does not doing it because we remember agree on on the hobby, plug it to the system with nullable other things and I want to be really.

R

C

R

If there is any synergy between option of tea orange, not of tea and the reference types idea, is it is that going to work well with level or do we need something new that well.

C

Think of model the reference types there like the way they work is they.

C

They almost don't exist as physical types, because, basically, you just say fool in the insula Malabo effectively, and then we only add syntactic sugar to express mobility of reference types, but those who mostly be hints at the model like we only.

B

C

Oh should be closing with them. What mark observing their error? I, don't think they are morons, but.

I

I think that with the current proposal- or you know even the preview, it has nothing to do with runtime runtime and in libraries are not change like it's strictly. You know compiler warnings and, like you know, insurance main.

C

Exit, so technically, you cannot tell the difference with another reference type and and malleable they view time, but type was there different. One of them is constructed generically. The one is just some meditator. Okay.

R

So you, and that I would say, is one reason not to add option of T, because you now have like multiple concepts that mean almost the same, but not exactly it.

N

Becomes well except we repeatedly have the problem that no level of T is constrained to struct. Therefore, you cannot basically it's a type that cannot be used in genetic code and like if you're dealing with T's and the T's are not constrained to struct you're screwed. We don't basically have a type for it. Sorry.

C

Neck, if you compare nullable and optional like there, are also different concepts in the sense then like, for example, nullable has arithmetic defined over it versus option of T wouldn't have that. Is that you just pure data holder? You can't do any math with it like you want.

R

C

You have to get.

R

The video very they are not the same concept: I less.

C

They are similar.

N

R

Guess I I, don't think I mean if you see it need.

N

For it, it's basically, you know we hit this from time to time. Somebody comes with like generic API and they, like our G's, not a ghoul would be nice, but we cannot use it here and I wonder whether this is that you know review. This is the case where we pull the trigger and we just do it so.

C

Then the question so let's say we have option of T where they also be using MVC all.

N

The other places that in the past, we were like her if we have the option of C with the views, but.

C

There's like I, want to say after say there like it comes up, but it's like I think since we had Rosen, they were like four places in the video like it's not like. Oh my god, this side is useful, like it.

P

And every time one it is vol like an extra, not only B, so.

C

I get that I'm saying is that we have to like I, think it's very weird to me to ever tie that they don't use, because that ends up usually in the world, where nothing interacts with the type. But then it's like a I think you have to have semantics. For example, do we want to have an implicit cast from inaudible of T to an optional of T, for example? Or do we want to have a try, parse pattern that returns an option of T or but.

N

Every time we have disguised this in session.

C

N

Would we use it in more places than this one and that we punt, and then we six months later, we in the same spot, yeah so you're saying if the virtual add type would use it I will just add it and be done with it. If we think that okay, so the only thing I would do, is I would add it if this API would actually use it, yeah I would not add it like just you know, just for the sake of it, because we, but.

H

Then we're talking about adding compiler support and other things too and I.

M

Don't know, option on option of T doesn't need this, but let's do the thing about any compiler support right, I mean usually come later yeah. You.

H

Could use no loyalty with our compiler support? It's just.

L

Not as pleasant well, I'm.

C

Not sure what you're saying like usually legging language, too many play that may be harder depending on what you want to language semantics, to be like. Okay,.

M

It's not understand, tactic sugar, for that will.

R

It be the same syntactic sugar that we have yeah.

C

That's the question I mean like you may have to be careful that you don't like, for example, one common problem that the language guys have is depending on what you want the semantics to be, for example, you may or may not want that the rules participate all over resolution. If you want to do that, then it's certain you know design and then there's other things where a cyclic design, like I, think fundamentally I. Think you should talk the language guys to say if we were to add optional of G.

C

What would that mean like how would a director of reference type? Does it at all? How would interact with nullable types? Does it at all when we have some tactic sugar? If so, what does it look like? Is there any until up story between these three things in this? So you know, what do you want to do? I mean Johnny speaking, they were the ones pushing forward in the walls at timeframe, because you know for the wither is essentially the absence of a video yeah, as opposed to now.

R

Being very Bart mentioned that example in this trade or appointment here saying that thought introduces every everywhere. You carry try method broadly. However, this.

C

Optional, but it seems to me like, is it fair to say that I think we wouldn't do the try methods without if they were to do them? We would do them in such a way that there are side effects. Atomic weight as we return, and we think tuples would be very odd. Is that a fair summary I.

R

Like it it, the other challenge is that we probably need to come up with a new convention for the methods that between option or optional, because try he's already yeah.

C

At this discussion of crystal view time, they disagree with crystal I. Think like to me to me. Try like he was basically saying here, everything alone, but I think the idea was try. Was we base it on for an exception? Like this elf story, an exception? We give you return million, you can't really be succeeded or not. We have used try in other places where it's not really an exception.

C

Like it's more like trying to communicate in the API, we have to be able to sting, not returning, true and so like you may not be able to get it paid. You like try get underlying array or try get underlying hand or somehow they do.

R

C

With that, so do.

R

Your you'd like to use the tribe name for.

C

R

C

Mean, like you could say you know, Singh I mean single like in this case. You could almost argue.

C

There's this try single would just not succeed by just return false, which case is in line with what our existing tryparse pattern. Excetera, dualistic, transparent, basic, dictates, fully returned and out argument and would have basically changed the pattern to say, or you return.

L

N

We could call it a single optional.

C

In the only reason I don't like it, it seems when I want. There is a verb, not a magic turn, which one zipper.

N

C

Tries were optional is adjective seems like single optional, since it doesn't tell me what it does and it tells me it's single doesn't tell you what.

N

It does but single, isn't know exactly well, it's a well I guess.

A

C

A

You we did buy yet projected.

R

Single assumption, I.

C

Think we could follow the order. Oil were defaulting and say last or last or not, and then optionally, with this a single false.

C

H

To the PHP or diet.

H

C

I think this is where this proposal is hinging on right, I think like. If you were to do this, we have to come up with a pattern for option of T like what's the so.

N

We said we don't like the ones that use out parameters and we don't like the other ones, because they might drag the try pattern for something new.

N

H

Even things like dictionary, don't try good value automatically return optional, tea with the correct compiler support, I'm skeptical that it will ever happen.

R

It doesn't remove it, learn that the in ways that use these become side effect.

C

Well, not necessarily about, if you do it like the way he described it. If you would have a hidden.

Q

Line yeah I mean the.

C

Fact that you have side effects and link is also do with the fact that lead is an expression and engineering. A variable requires a statement, so you're basically force it to be outside that scope. It.

C

Then, like super-lonely would be like similar localizes letters right, yeah.

H

You're you're capturing of value, but the value is immutable once captured. Yeah.

H

But I mean we're deep, does not hold this point.

I

So what do we do? The I admirable are.

O

We gonna leave that.

R

O

R

Don't know that these api's were the trouble like, for instance, you have a tri-gate body on dictionary. You know that I mean if we had an API that was simpler than that. It would probably just return now. I, don't know like for many things now. This is okay. He successfully.

Q

Enough now, for some.

R

Types yeah I know but like it's, but that's why? Why press all default existence, a vertical axis that is not nella, will always but sometimes easily fall of the type I.

R

Mean there's already a solution ending, for this is something that is doesn't cover all the bases.

R

P

Think I'm kind of spell the word hi Nik I think that's.

C

How it's not yes, we're not sure we should I check the Fine.

P

A

K

C

B

What does it mean.

C

For the person filing that issue, like it's me, things like the this is like it's mostly an action item on us, whether we believe this API is useful enough to have the conversation on optional, but I also kind of repress. Of that it just happens to be the current issue. A option would have been venue, but we all you know the optional would generally pay your bowleg to me. It's not like. Oh, we have to invent optionality just for this one case right. It's just get another timer that will be ends so.

N

I yeah I would say that maybe we should do the discussion that you, because there are all the points that you made a good points like when we design optional. There are many questions that would need to be answered. I think if we answer them and we do add, optional I think it would be the best way to design this API. Is there.

H

An existing your shoe or description, optional, I, don't think there is there.

I

Is I'm pretty sure.

I

G

H

This would that be under the blossom or porcelain.

P

The other one had.

N

Language syntax, they.

R

Will appreciate question.

R

Kristen old Appa gating operator, they are better than vocalizing.

O

Anything with money we found it. That's.

F

O

H

I found it if you wanted to link to it at Sony, one five: nine.

C

Do this, let's do.

I

So that we have proof at least the orb will do, go ahead on the I, know, enumerable or should be blocked off with this one as well.

C

It has the same problem.

I

And it has the same API pattern: you would use the option option.

C

In there as well like this one doesn't use option, this one only uses the try pattern which we don't like, because it has the outer arguments right and then this one has both of them like I, would say generally. It seems very weird to me that in your mobile career will have different API servers, I.

I

Would say whatever we decide, we should just have it involved. If we had option would we have a try single returning option on both as the answer, so we want to explore that option than have any more.

S

I think the option I like it, somebody should should write down what you need to do to use it. Yes,.

L

We should sing with an actress on that I'll talk to Matt's about it. Thank you guys. Victor.

R

Thanks Jacob the way you are now a permanent.

C

Member on the team to get all the invites on that.

Q

F

You have to show.

R

C

R

C

A bullet maybe 918 I.

R

Didn't have anything 187, just attacked out of the Cold War meeting called warm and there's this initiation ceremony. We.

N

Forgot to mention yeah, it was this initiation ceremony. Okay,.

R

Do I need to pay everybody for yourself. It's.

A

Not expensive, don't worry about it. Have you heard of her farm.

I

Low-Key restaurant really low-key videos.

L

I

L

Mean by thinking Paul's love.

I

So Before we jump to proclaim really quick one. That's second from the bottle.

P

Says dictionary.

I

Capacitate we already had it here and there was discussion about the name. Oh it's on the name, yeah Ian you quit Dondero or I.

M

Forgot, like you know,.

T

This is who the odds.

I

Of fixity yeah, so is it if you remember last time we discussed like you, know, hey we had capacity and what was it that we agreed on. Oh Oh,.

Q

I

About the Train yeah, because I owe virtually no, it was the resize. The thing is that we will never I believe we will never actually try to make it smaller. That's not a bother it's more about upfront upfront allocation, because you know that I'm gonna be inserting ten thousand things, so please don't reallocate over and over again the way. So the you know agreement at least for that scenario was like to rename it or you know, to introduce any short capacity.

I

We don't need to trim yet well.

N

We don't need that show yet, but then, when we need to trim, then we have more complicated, more api's. Should we just solve, you know, kill two birds with one stone.

H

We ever figure out which one would do on dictionary. Yes,.

M

When you have too much slack, it will just make.

I

The started about load factors and other things you know and that that's good, that's getting my said until we have answer to that, but.

N

Iii know it, may it's more complicated, I agree, the point is, it would basically mean we don't ever add ability to shape.

I

Then calling it resize, as we originally approved, seems weird.

N

Okay, but are we even ready to make the decision that we don't ever add ability to shrink dictionary because I'm, not sure or it's basically well I kind of I want to avoid all it's hard to do the right thing? Let's do that the is sloppy thing sure.

I

Right, but we have business name like you know, for venture capacity. It's a thing that you that's hurting I must build or something into project sister.

Q

I

David file it right yeah.

Q

I

Bit in general, and we don't know how- and we thought about it like you know they thought about it. Like you know, you don't know how to make the resize be meaningful, because the resize kind of says that you know it's going to shrink as well, how to make it not a confusing API or the other option is to call it ensure capacity. Yes, which might be potential if we one day find out some beautiful name and beautiful behavior might be suddenly, like.

I

You know, superfluous API, but the likelihood that we're going to find some you know. Sweet spot eventually is pretty low at this moment, there's quite a lot of people thought about it and we cannot come up with anything.

I

Not maybe such a bad, you know middle ground so.

N

I am not convinced that it's so hard to design precise, like did anybody actually look into seriously into this, or just people wanting sure capacity, and they are pushing for it and telling us that it's very difficult to do itself.

I

I'll be over here unable to come up with that and I.

C

Mean how do you address the second comment from Dave's Oh? What.

K

N

Even the recreating.

H

Basically, what what he means here, I think is, if you use the dictionary constructor that takes a dictionary, that's a way to shrink it. But if you need to re, add things to that you're kind of in the same boat, exactly.

C

So that means degi. It comes to me like he wants to shrink too and in this build right, because you did this huge thing and then unit beings.

I

Does it Allah says they don't need shrinking down there like when we had a discussion after this after the therapy.

C

Okay, that's what he says here right then I didn't understand what his first comment, but.

H

I, don't know why you would shrink in the rehab.

I

Well, I mean no, no, he doesn't want to shrink. This is what would so excellent go down and he explains like what he man he might have like a long, but he says I can see where we want to shrink.

N

But for the most part he basically says it's more: it's higher priority to increase.

H

Sure I just didn't quite understand the original Common Core okay. So that's what I remember blah stop.

I

He says the key purpose in to two weeks ago: the key purpose of the API, at least when I file, it was to increase the size, not trim.

N

It yeah I completely agree, but this is basically the difference between our team and customers, like customers want what they want at this given month, and then we keep adding ideas that are not general purpose and then we end up having like moulds, because oh geez, we had this API two years ago to to increase, and now we have this other to trim. How do they relate and blah blah blah.

I

So the only question is like: do we want to rethink it? Eventually, we can, you know, expose some kind of resize, API or or we're fine. If we overtime, we expose trick.

N

So I know that resizes a bit more complex but I would say the semantics should be the following. You pass resize and you can pass a smaller value than the current size of the internal structure, but the fact will devalue the semantics of the value that you pass in are the following: I will be able to add as many items to the dictionary we found any reset Sagarika.

N

Basically, the person ain't to resize it means I will be able to have that many items in a dictionary without causing any resize.

H

So we can have that as almost guaranteed.

N

You mean a dictionary can doesn't have to trip that's by Z yeah, because sometimes it may be difficult to.

H

A

H

That remember, the implementation is still free to say, like I'm, going to start repackaging everything anyway. Basically,.

N

That the resize semantics would be I will try to optimize my internals as well and I will, but I will ensure that I will not resize. If you add up to that many elements, I'll try to make it as optimized as cost and some.

H

Dictionaries may.

N

Basically, in the resize through nothing because it complies with the culture.

H

What's what's the insurance.

H

Short passing it.

I

Does apparently 90% heuristic, so it goes tonight. You know it trims it down to 90% bloke factor. That was the key thing that you know.

I

If you trim, the dictionary like I cannot trim it so that the old factor is bad or well.

N

I

O

Are you know yeah so.

N

Let me answer the question today. Dictionary has already is the concept of load factor correct, which we don't.

M

Expose it synthesizes.

N

When it crosses the threshold, it would be the same here.

N

Yeah you pass an int and basically the guarantee is I will not resize till you had more items than the end and you have to incorporate the load factor in your computation.

N

Otherwise, you can like optimize your eternal data structure to be as small as you can so. Let's say, I have a dictionary that has a fixed load factor and the load factor is 2x and somebody passes me. 100 to resize I allocate an array of 200 buckets and.

N

If I, maybe before, had an array of thousand buckets now I have 5 times less memory.

C

You're saying, but who does this computation the dictionary, so the the load factor is internal dictionary of.

N

Course so it knows how much you.

C

Say they have the concept of the load factor, but that's I was.

N

Enjoy the event for the consumer.

C

N

Also, like I, can imagine some dictionaries kind of it's not clear. They don't know. The only thing that they need to do is to ensure that they don't resize, so they don't that they don't have to trim back a lot or at all I.

C

Mean I, don't have the only the only thing in dictionary has to do is make sure that it doesn't have to resize. If the only number of elements.

N

You're, pushing is what you pass that exactly yes, but basically what I'm saying is some major problems trimming, but it's the check for trimming is a bit more looser than for.

H

N

H

It has enough capacity so to use your exact example, you pass in 200 as a capacity, and it allocates 239 buckets under the covers. What's.

C

The difference between growing and shrinking in the dictionary because effectively you have to rehash anyway right, but this do you think this is so? How is it making your life harder? If you have to shrink.

N

What do you mean by her, oh by ear? Why does it make it harder I think that some people commented that some you know hash based data structures. They may have problems determining the absolute lower bound to not resize, but the value of a margin of error, not on this. They they not only have a load factor. They also have the margin of error.

C

Over let's say you have currently 100 items right capacity for it, let's say 10,000, right and I, say: I want to capacity to be 2,000 or uncovering the load factor. You know how you, how much you contribute data structure, I, correct, I, move you to.

N

C

Me, like growing and shrinking from a national standpoint seems like it's almost exact.

C

And I need to rehash the items and stash them in I mean that's effective. What you have to do, the only thing you have to make sure is that the argument- the guy pauses in is at least count I, give it can be smaller, neck yeah. So.

N

Then the next question is what, if the you pass something smaller than the count, do we just ignore it and use count or where all the content, validation? That should be a proof.

S

Last time, yeah yeah, you cannot.

D

Do that through, let's.

I

Read actually the to remembrance.

C

From done, and so that's why to me, this is the ABI pattern that they've proposed somewhere over.

J

Q

Back on, that seems.

C

Q

C

I mean because that now we aren't that get to me like this could have been the same API. We just decided that we don't want to do the same API and that seems just odd I think it's mariza, just at 180 I, taste capacity, and if you pass away the larger the smaller the account we throw and anything larger than count is fine and then.

N

In any way, then we pretend that you just ran the constructor and then we decide yeah exactly if you go up. Oh, but.

I

Still yeah, this is it. This is right after our API approved right, so do it dance advanced commands that basically spark you flipping it back to design this question. Are they addressed? The rest is a Bollinger cup. It's a capacity.

J

Well, these two.

C

J

Thing, video star.

C

Seraph is like so this is just naming, so it's ignore the name of the method right. We have some method that allows you to specify. The capacity of the dictionary can hold right. What everybody in this guy it can be larger or smaller than the current capacity, but it has to be at least count.

I

And it's semantics is that it's gonna go to nearest prime, so, even if, if it can already hold the capacity, it's gonna try to shrink to.

M

Me that's I mean how do you determine.

C

The size of the array to me is like recomendation, ization, specific factor of plus nears five I. Don't care, like you, there's some algorithm that you have to run today when I do new dictionary and pass in the thousands for capacity right. So somehow you took that value and turn it into a size of the of the array like our contract is not that when you pass in is the actual size of the array. All we are saying is that the contract is, is the if I up to that number? You don't have to resize.

C

I

That's the contract, okay. Now the question is how we named the function so that it expresses the impact and that to me can go, go.

C

Up as well as down like there's no reason why this is going to going away, and so like that. That's when I said to me that the naming is almost at this point irrelevant.

C

Well, it is relevant I'm. Just saying like there push back from the last time was just I, don't like the name which is there? Okay, fine, it's not about the name. It doesn't tell me that we should have a grow, homing API. It seems weird just because we're going to be on the name in.

N

A controller like that seems like.

C

N

Who pick some name that conveys the concept but I thought that the argument was that resize implies that it can shrink in sure capacity does not say anything that it will shrink gray and we need a name that says it can either shrink or grow, which resides, in my opinion, is a better name: everything. Okay, it's.

C

Just that they didn't like the terminology, size and I said like okay, then it speaks some other things like optimized.

N

C

Yeah, okay, okay, I see I append it to me what I want is upon an API that effectively allows you to grow and shrink, and that's it and it's your capacity a little McGill and pull it like you know: that's it Tizen Tizen, Tizen, yeah,.

B

N

Submit size it has to be.

C

P

Best advice: is it a good one capacitor mm, but not better? Has it to does and I love I love it so that.

H

This is where I make you all sound. It sounds like.

H

I set up t exposes ash said of T yeah, which is very similar to dictionary okay in terms of API, surface and behavior anyway,.

T

H

Exposes a trim, access method publicly and with its shrink only that is shrink only us, which is not what they are asking for, because there one specifically grow know. But it's that is a potential argument for having two different api's OS.

C

Fish pattern: basicness: what's your sign yeah, the other had go print.

H

C

Think we are growing here and.

B

Well, non-exposed: where is it frankly, I can't.

H

See that because then I don't know yeah.

L

I've sort of TIA trim accesses in here there it is connected. What's.

N

The name of the API our list, is it Ernie? No, no, no! No! Sorry, not lazy. Is it also Trina's access.

C

Or just Jim from access yeah, that's the thing. I said last time: I mean to me: if we make it trim only the term access, it is I.

C

Don't think we have any API is in short messaging today, Leon publish the tea house in our two houses, two.

S

H

Yes, it's the only one that doesn't.

I

H

Have trimmed list has got trim now.

I

It's just over existence.

H

I

H

That's the wrong one.

I

Well, it has capacity and.

H

Well, setting a solution allowed to grow. Okay.

C

And only had so many right, yeah and boy I think you can set the length I relieved yeah could hassle. You should be sober.

P

Oh and the capacity as well.

I

So it has vice just not so we have both patterns for method wise, like you know, we have access to fields or we have ensure and trim so.

C

L

C

Don't want to store the radio, secondly, they I think for, but for a thing that wraps the buffer, making the capacity settable I'd argue still something I find weird, because you at least have to allocate new and copy. So it's not what I would consider a cheap operation, but for something like rehashing and like that seems like a really bad game. Yeah.

H

But presumably any API that we add to dictionary, we would also add to half sub just for symmetry. Well,.

C

I, wonder maybe I mean to me the look at usage headset as long uses nearly as often but like yeah. It could make this the same.

N

Or not, but okay, so let's now work through the alternative. So we we add a should access methods to dictionary to be clear, we don't.

I

And yeah, and which is nice basically, like you, know, hey you know whatever you have well yeah.

Q

P

Mean what you could say trim excess could take a capacity.

C

That is indexed. You know that is defaulted to count right, like I mean I, don't know, I would need to get this. An EP I would make it an overload, I suppose, but um zero well.

E

That would be bad work almost.

G

Always throws I.

N

G

E

You cannot be lower than coward I.

E

Want us to know that when you set capacity door that counter throw those it just delete, data on which you.

H

Know in another we can check here on the Browse.

N

Shrink dollar: first, when you set the capacity to too low value, I wonder what list of T does say capacity with all you have dots.

H

Same thing, burrows yeah, so.

N

Let's say we had to trim access either with the parameter or without what would we call the method to set capacity? Well, we would do the insure capacities in ODIs. Remember. Why is it called ensuring not set like.

I

How is it set telling the underlying data structure? Do your magic make sure that you can hold this capacity? How.

E

Is it different from seven so no.

C

It is different because.

C

It does nothing when you set you or.

M

I

Capacitive on it does nothing.

E

I, don't know it, what do you mean it does nothing? It throws no because, let's say.

C

If it's trim little count zero, you have not written into this chain. Color, okay capacity is 100. Let me say in short capacity, you posit 80 do nothing, because we already have 100.

A

By the troika, passages means grow of your hat I.

C

See I see, I, see, I, see.

A

I see girl, oh girl, all.

H

Right sounds good to me. Doesn't Oberhausen terrific I'll say huh it's.

C

Not a great name, but on the other hand like it's an established name, I mean it's one API we have the framework much. This is an established API, but I'm kind of ok, so 4 5, so I can kind of claim fire for that, so that would basically fuzz before I just set the stupid wish this. The proposal that David had here.

K

Which was this one.

Q

Here, yeah I'm.

N

So glad and I I do think that if we are starting from scratch, we will design it differently, but given that we already have trim it, it schumak says yes should just.

H

Keep that I'm also trying to wrap my mind around. Why string builder has both the capacity getter and setter and an ensure capacity method.

Q

Provided I want to dream to come yeah.

N

That's a good point: do we want to start a new better, slightly improved parent? Although they look like this is opposed? Well, we could, we could just add a optional parameter, but what will you sell it to a sentinel value, minus 1, which means the cat cat cat? ah You.

E

N

E

N

E

Incapacity equals.

C

E

D

C

Think that's more, maybe that's yeah I would do that. I would did you do this, I was just having like this and say.

C

Cause the other passing in count.

N

So two more questions one is they need it so do we add both api's at the same time or well? I would say at this point we'll just involve them in color.

C

Today, it's going to be simple. Another thing I mean to keep in mind like the reason they want, the sapiens probe, optimizations right so I think once they pass the fact that we resize things all over again, and somebody may fight over these long running things over here and all we want to do- trim excess of those like given the cost. We have to wrap this a few guys, which is the work that, at the same time, with other Miriam.

I

C

I

To do that, so that's why we want. We want approval.

C

By the way that we needed, like I guess, Keene wants this on full frame. Earth right, uncoil doesn't have much. Does it you'll.

I

See does not break in jail, yet it's a prior discussion, I think on.

B

Quorum, he might be happy. Oh man give me these in yes,.

C

I, don't think anything to promote, helps me there because they can't targeted. Yet you need agree to edit immediately well.

I

The core is the first step right, you know, so, let's I did.

C

I

C

We can open the discussion. All I'm saying is in terms of timing like whether we do both of them at the same time or what, at the same time, I think.

P

Has to do with like how fast they need to be able.

I

To install annotation wise, there will be so similar that not doing them at the same time is in my plan stupid. So let's do them an allegory that there's no technical reason not to do them together. It sounds like just time.

H

Instant okay, okay, another.

N

Question I have insurer capacity should it return the capacity that it was left with strained of ourselves, because, oh especially, that we don't store the value so like it's impossible to tell what the value is or not.

M

So we will not expose the Field capacity at all. Just get yeah.

N

M

Kind of cannot yet.

H

So the way that the stringbuilder ensure capacity method works is diffic has t that you pass in as a parameter is less than the current capacity. It ignores what you passed in and just returns the existing capacity, as we return also.

I

It doesn't throw yeah.

H

I

Me will denture capacity shadow return. Will it return the size.

N

That would not resize opacity always has the single meaning; it means.

I

The thing is that you I don't think that we can say that in a you know, proper way over here can be, it should be able to okay, because otherwise you can knows.

N

I

We don't do dynamic dictionaries to you.

C

Know the collisions.

I

C

Like owners, prime, you do a load factor computation and then, if you have two lesions, you have already like a linked list. I'll approach it in the bucket with something. So they should know.

O

You should basically, you may have locate more notes if you have more collisions, but you don't have to go over your way. You.

I

O

Yet we don't have to fancy.

C

List of T and the other one has Edwin absolutely yeah.

N

Speaking of which, should we add the same api's to cash set of ture, we added so hash that has already trim.

C

Excess, it doesn't have the one with capacity, doesn't have any short capacity.

C

Which is basically the one sets so.

N

Next time somebody asks for it, we may wait waste half an hour or an hour. Reviewing an IP I know.

J

N

Gonna look at this one so like if.

J

This is hard come on you just.

N

We had the same discussion when we were adding stream access to list of T, and somebody said now: let's not add it to dictionary when somebody asks for it at the dictionary, we're gonna add it now. Somebody proposed that we added to dictionary- and we just spent so.

C

Many reason why I'm, yes, activities that Hester has is such a fundamentally different implementation from dictionary it's like for Miriam there's, not much of like magnitude of doing it. Over the same time really I.

L

Thought it's implemented this.

N

C

B

K

Some sort of weird.

C

Tree and I, when you, when you do you, use these other operations like red black tree I, think.

L

No, it's some sort of it's.

H

Not her in the API sorry, the public surface is similar, but it's it's there's magic under pick up, rocks I'm, pretty.

N

Sure that it was actually implemented as a dictionary initially, maybe p.m. for that did you row, but then somebody optimize how it was. We.

P

Think having separate he has mix is.

D

T

This is the other way round.

K

C

Just be honest here necessary all.

N

Right, we have the least add, like a n.

P

For bonus points at ideas, can you actually add any comments on the term access? Would.

I

It would it returns, that's something that we should. Yes, basically, the reverse function of how to compute the thing from the prime number you get to the you have the prime number and our verse. You have to take out the load factor and then round it to the lowest integer.

I

C

Other set that we have the ordered set for inside right.

H

And then we get current dictionary and hash table and everything else are well.

L

If you use hash table.

C

I, don't care if you look like that's.

L

Already in the.

C

L

C

D

Ensure capacity returns the.

D

Adjusted capacity, which might be large what was lost and I did that information that such a thing.

G

I

Right for Brooke lay is it for four minutes.

B

You sing, or did you like.

I

Well, I'll, stop saying that word! Oh, it's all roughly would be really useful if we can do that. uh Do you know if it's three.

M

Minutes can be so I am.

N

Not sure I think Ian is still here this weekend. He wanted to work on it. Dad yeah I.

G

N

So I think we should review it because I think he's basically blocked on us. Okay, so we.

I

Learn my lesson: the.

C

Main brought a stream like whatever a deflate stream, looks like renamed the flight stream to brought this dream that capn servants right. So let's look it up. That's fair.

N

Or sure I think that should be the starting point. I think there may.

J

Be some differences like a couple of a pH or something like options, sort of the operation status or something those.

N

Are different, those.

J

N

Ideas, but what Eva said is kind of true for this dream by the eyes like I.

C

Mean how the api's I don't know why they're here I think.

P

You what we just did again when it is said like these things, is probably just what we ended. The only thing that may be different is the constructors.

N

This light stream, we can look at the factors.

D

C

Stood over them just for good measure, I think they all take the same argument.

N

C

See because mark! Oh yes! Yes, the same this.

E

6 and this concern is I believe open up of my science.

N

So I assume that the gzipstream has leave up and doesn't have buffer size.

C

And I think most of this week we don't have them because we started exposing about her size is relatively late. Can.

N

I request a feature for API catalog: it should show the parameter names yeah.

Q

E

N

O

It what's the boolean.

N

What's the boolean parameter or cuddly hope desert owns only poppin, ok, so basically he added buffer size. mmm I! Guess! That's fine, correct.

C

Then others in other place, I remember that all of our TSP over we had end up doing the same thing, because the buffer sizes are frosting may be able to tweak and.

N

The buffer size cannot be a property correct because no but then then you have this whole.

C

Like gymnastics on like, when can you set this and when you disallow setting.

C

I think you want this to be an invariant of the time, something that can change in anything.

N

So if you send the compression mode, you cannot set compression level.

C

Yeah, because compression level implies you're compressing right. There is no compression that will be compressed. You.

N

Can roast over the metal.

C

Rods that it was written that compression.

N

That will just indicate how hard do you try to compress and compression mode is compressed to compress yeah so, which is a very weird API I was in the moment, compression. If you have some designs all right, because.

C

N

You call the constructor with compression level you compressing. So if the other constructor, you call when you decompressing, but it has a mode that is compressing.

H

C

Have a negative value because your D conversion well, what is weird is that when you specify compression mode decompression, sorry compression mode compression cannot specify the compression level exactly.

N

Yeah I move to exclusive set of constructors. Okay, it's hand waving because, basically, if I don't care about the compression level, I just can call compression mode that compare you know compress. It picks one for me, but still it's very weak anyway.

N

C

Anyways mind I wasn't home when this API was designed, it chose not to speak up yeah I'm, pretty sure I was in the river.

N

H

We decide on what the behavior of wash would be. I know we have read about those on behavior choices. Do you have a flush just properly distinguish between a intermediate flush on a final polish done.

T

Tissue, it does speaking.

E

L

I actually have to run.

O

C

Are you so hungry, I'm, actually quite hungry, any proper food? Yesterday somebody left what could go sugar? Are we gonna do about the CPI next time? We look at this whole thing.

P

C

Time we look about this in his book together. Oh I, don't know.

G

C

His probably taking home at that 10 minutes right for the whole thing. So how about we serve another.

N

Thing we could do later today. So what about the following? We just approved this dream. He can start working and then we'll review the other API on Thursday or Friday or whatever is the second or we just mean later today and finish the.

A

Q

L

Could do this face problem better? Let's do today later after lunch, yeah all.

C

Right guys things online people wait 1 o'clock.