.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 30 Apr 2020

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A

They uh I get the interesting things, look good within the country, so yeah I, don't I, don't know what to do about that. But I think the to me the Jason's option that is proposed right now when you put off so they don't ignore our various seems reasonable. But maybe we should wait until that until we actually talk to James and get more clarity on is the behavior that he has really something that people wanted on both sides.

A

You know HPV civilization, once it's just yeah, we it's just how how implemented when people didn't need a long enough right and then maybe maybe all behavior make sense of opportunity in America. It doesn't right.

B

Yeah, that's fine, James and probably just take the rest of this way. No, but the question I had about the costume converters and you know that's last one out: it's sitting.

B

Just below this default values per property, the next thing I.

B

Don't see it's on the screen right now.

C

Apparently my my router lost power.

A

C

We got to play the witch breaker just popped game.

D

So just a quick little background on this thing is that we talked about it a couple weeks ago, but we decided when we're doing sterilizer that it will handle the sterilizer will handled in all automatically for you on deserialization and circulation, so that so that, so you don't have to put it. You know like one line of code at the beginning of your custom converter. That says, if null or if token tight, we all do this plus we found you know by avoiding setting, are calling the converters faster.

D

So it had kind of some easy to write, converter, I'm thinking and then also some perf thinking, but in general we never thought that people would want to handle the draw null for reference types for value types. Yes, because things like Jason element, for example, um a null or Jason document and all coming in are going out, needs to be written as an empty object and not a non.

D

um So anyway. So we encountered a couple scenarios, including including cosmos that said hey when we see null, we want to do something special and they're blocked by this right now.

C

Yeah I think this, this one's fine, it's specific. It specifically is null reference values and the null keyword and it's opt-in does make sense, because many people may already be blindly talking about properties on the object they get because it was never known before.

C

Presumably, you need to make a change to your nullable annotation for the callbacks that are involved to say that the object returned now is allowed to be null, and the object that you'll receive on serialize may also be null.

B

For the serialize side right now, it's allowed to be known or we check for the dis. Really, when do you return.

C

But yeah and were there notes on the enum that I need to capture? Did you just take over for me when I disappeared, even.

A

I did not. I was a bad boy, because I kind of thought you would come back. I'm.

C

Back now so, on the last I heard on this one I had we were discussing whether, when default needed to be renamed or three different values,.

A

Yeah I think the conclusion there was. We want to talk to James, to make sure that we understand the behavior that he has some of it. That's intentional, and that, based on that, which is not what to do. Okay,.

C

So we're we're deferring the Jason ignore condition, part.

A

Yes and I mean same with the beginning, whether the also obvious or not, right, because it seems like that's this, that this general problem of, like you know how many people in under what circumstance do they want to avoid call it the cetera right, if that's a real scenario, we want to enable them. We should make sure that we can do it in the same way.

C

A

Also sprinkling your code with Jason, you can know what attributes is the problem, also not what you want. But at that point you don't want to write a custom converter or you want to have a goal properties going on right.

B

So for the T for the converter, read methods, there's no generic constraint, so we can't put see that the t's know the return type is knowable them.

C

May be null attribute, I think, which is if the T is a reference type. It might be nothing.

A

D

Does that work with novel of Jesus, since that's not a reference time, it doesn't apply.

D

Because the cert Eliezer is a gala loaded with us all over the place. Where t we need to be instruct our reference type, so we always seem using the bang operator quite a bit. You know because we compiler doesn't know what to do or it's the analyzers on what to do.

B

We just went right home in the plane.

C

All right, so is there anything left in this issue that we didn't talk about on.

B

Someone else, and is that not pressing for right now so I can come back. Okay,.

C

So take the note.

C

Okay, but we were good with serialized default values and I'm gonna go ahead and leave the things suggesting ignore about null values as being marked obsolete so that I have a place. To put the editor browsable note.

C

Okay, so that or the bottom paced preview, okay,.

B

Hold on yeah, so the issue for the handle known is: let me get the number so that that issue can be approved in isolation. um So that's three, four four three nine I can do offline.

C

Okay, yeah I can move that part of the note to there. But all right do these notes. Look like they captured what we talked about.

C

Okay and delete this part, because it's a different tissue.

C

Comment, and then is this- needs work because we deferred things.

C

It's like partial, approved.

D

Well, so for logistics, if we hear back from James, um we want to bring this up again or just make a call. Once once we get that information, I mean you can do through email, or we can do this again.

C

Because really the! If, if there's a it, makes sense to have some opt-in to ignore default, calling the setters for default values even.

A

C

Custom defaults on deserialize, then we're really gonna need to talk about what that, oh, you know it looks like okay.

D

So so, if James comes back and says hey, you know, I, there's not really any good scenarios, except for maybe perf yeah.

C

D

We'll just gonna probably handle this or email one right.

E

C

Call it needs work and if we can get it dealt with in emails and we can get it done with an email.

C

Okay, so we have three minutes.

A

Yeah I see like that's, probably not enough like what happened to the networking issue. That's what the meeting agenda we.

C

Approved it before you joined.

A

C

And mayo Me's was the first extended one, so the one thing that I want to do while we still have humans in the room is we talked about this on email but I'd like to just get consensus and the thing we can talk about the rest of the ASN proposal later, but since it affects ASN and upcoming sea war proposal, I want to talk about. Are we okay with system that formats for these sort of wire format, protocols, namespace container.

C

Since I'm running the meeting, email can't put it off anymore.

E

C

For the asn.1 it would be in system format, say sn1.

E

C

Own total package right and I'm, probably gonna- do some I'll merge rewrite to make an internal copy. So we don't have to share exchange types with with the nougat package and we can use it at a lower level inside. But that's a internal detail for seaboard. We wouldn't have internal usage, so it would be in you know, system format, seaport.

C

B

Really this is anybody, have.

C

An objection to the word formats for any any future serialization format work we do like if we already had this than I, think Jason would have already gone under system formats Jason, and if we did this in the beginning, it would be yes system formats, asn.1, seaboard, Jason XML, because it's all the different ways that things are constructed on the wire and how you read them and write them. So.

E

You and the ideas you wouldn't have systems for matters. It would be system formats because this is a formatter of sort. Oh, it's not taking arbitrary objects. I guess! That's the difference right.

C

So if we added a serializer for asn.1, then it would be using what we did for Jason system formats, asn.1 serialization.

C

So it's you're talking about asn.1.

E

C

And now do you want to serialize it, or in this case it's the primitive, the readers and writers and primitives you need to in order to talk about the thing sabore will have a similar thing. Xml has you know at attributes and elements, and so yeah.

E

That makes sense, you're drawing the distinction between a formatter as something that can read and write a payload format as opposed to a serializer which can hydrate and dehydrate objects, yeah, and so.

C

Then it would be for everything that is self-contained to a particular wire or file format that that it would be system that formats, not that particular format and then move on with life and formats.

A

C

Be an empty container, it's just a it's just a scoping name, I'm.

E

I'm leanin ever so slightly toward for matters instead of formats but I. It's such a. We clean that I forget I, said anything to.

C

Me formatter really is the object, hydrator and dehydrator. So since some of these won't have one of those that I don't I feel like that's a misnomer.

A

Yeah I think fallens is more like a play on data performance right, which follows a song. Is your weather sure.

E

Okay, this was a good game. Space I think.

A

Yeah and I'm: it's awesome not like I, had five better options. Right, I, can't think of anything better yeah.

C

I I do think it makes sense to keep the word binary out of it, because now it gives us a better place for the for any other text-based things in the future and Jason already got it well. Jason got system text, Jason XML has system XML, plus every variant that we've ever made up for, but I think that this does give us a good, a good place going forward and it applies to whether it's text or binary or hybrid. We have a good place to put things so.

E

What kinds of things did you foresee going in here in the future? You mentioned keyboard what else so.

C

See we're we're actively working on if we moved protobuf into a little into. You know whether it's we do it or it's a package that, through our our local through a microsoft, owned project we we worked on, then it would make sense for system formats protobuf right like if you have a file that was written in the protobuf wire format. How do you read it? Well, protobuf reader go read a thing like so I think of anything that is a file like we could move ooks multi here if we cared her yeah.

E

I'm trying to brainstorm like three four five years down the road. What other things? What do we have here? Realistically, no, okay,.

C

Essentially, anything that gets labeled as a file format or a wire transport protocol would be for the messaging aspects. The protocol aspect would be somewhere else using protocol as a series of exchanges, as opposed to a series of content of a message.

E

C

Would not be here, for instance,.

E

Because it's more of a protocol than a format sure right.

C

But if we but HTTP, two frames could be formats, especially if it felt like they were being used somewhere outside the protocol care. So and it looks like we've had a reduction in the number of people who are here. So at least so we'll say that the the namespace is approved by everybody who stuck around.

E

C

And yeah so mo. We, we probably do want to talk about on this in in a meeting this level of rewrite that that I did here of the static conversion. So we will want to come back to I, also added a new exception.

A

You naughty boy, not settling for this right. Well,.

C

I got rid of cryptographic exception because we agreed it didn't make any sense and then no existing one was a really good one. So I had to make one up, but.

A

C

A

E

C

Everything, logically, so it's like you know, the read integer replacements are all together.

C

How much time with this thing.

A

What do you think I? Don't.

C

I mean certainly, we could make it be a gas, but if we wanted to just drive things forward since its we talked about it in concept, we're just signing off on the execution of consider I'd say an hour should be overly generous yeah. Then how about we just take.

A

A little extra day, yeah.

D

A

I have the next Thursday through the next Tuesday right, yes, video for next Tuesday and then I can't do this all day. After because there's a community stand up, but I can set up one for us, so somebody else can do that. I think we probably need Thursday's for the foreseeable future, so we'll just extend too serious on Thursdays, okay.

C

All right! Well then. That concludes this meeting, which, when I glanced at YouTube, looks like there was a placeholder meeting that when I started streaming, it didn't join. It made a new meeting, so apologies to anybody who sat in the wrong meeting for a while we're trying new tech, and sometimes we get confused by it. Yeah.

A

You just make my life harder, because my tools integrates the nodes can only handle one video right now. I know we have two videos change back to collapse. The dock.

C

Isn't technology fun.

A

Energy automation right because you do automation, so you don't have to do things over and over again with if it tweak the automation for us. No that's net.

C

All good, what's great, all right thanks! Everyone who joined us and we'll see you next time.