.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 27 Mar 2018

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From YouTube: .NET Design Reviews GitHub Triage

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-07:-08:-18 - Approved: SNI API for SslStream https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/24553#issuecomment-376614353

A

B

Just like recording silence but.

A

So just good, which basically means to be just a maybe already pushed so I, think Nader is lost.

A

Yep no way actually like ah yep turn the leg to Pacific or back um alright. So.

C

System is not here, you told me that you care about this issue. All about, as you are you're explained. So as I said, is a.

D

Lie as so, the idea behind.

C

D

Sn is like when the client connects to the server and the server has like hold on one post name assented the server can tell, which husband is why I'm trying to connect and choose the headset so like where the SLI? This is the SLI being sent like when doing the SSL negotiation. So what was happening is like I said like when the client connects to it. Like the first thing, it says it's like a client eloping and he they apply for such something that they text there's the SNA and somewhere.

D

And then these separate person about you I see.

C

So it's only a it's basically SSL feature: it's not general HTTP right.

E

F

Every indication do.

C

People want to do something like this with regular HTTP. It seems like a generally, so why is it that.

B

So HTTP already had the feature, so if you were just doing it being on a GPS, you could use the hostname and switch on it, but the certificate that comes back from TLS happens before you sent the hostname. So then they added an extension to the protocol to let you send the hostname. So the server can send you a certificate, so you can match it against the hosting.

D

So you can send those oh yeah.

B

So they had to move the data earlier in the negotiation.

B

C

B

You receive the first payload of feathers right and.

C

So this is for things like you.

B

Know as your web sites were there on one computer, they're hosting multiple different things with multiple different certs and they need to know which one to pick so.

D

Like 7/8 indication, it's so the SS, my designers, here's a generic thing about being a customer's name.

D

So I so give me a nice one. Is the delegate I'm the robot, which takes a sunder and host, and so Sanders I actually have to be using the code, but it this kind of like a general introducing? Yes, assistants can possibly success. Objectivity and the other thing is just making a sunnygurl.

C

So, what what is it done through options? Why is it not just like a property or necessary all registered.

G

A callback right.

H

C

Why do we need to register a callback as opposed to you, just read the property or necessarily.

H

Authenticate as client or a server or you know, workers, client or server on this is all so. We created the options, options for server and options for client, because you have like cousin, oh yeah,.

C

I understand that I remember we created options, but options are kind of like you.

D

C

D

Out of the kind of aggressive design, so a previously you write what we chose to there's going to be only one certificate, so we chose to make a few in the options that there is a server certificate so essentially like it should be for you. It's us the oceans, but the so like this, since the Cybermen you said like somewhere in between you, have to pass some kind of pun to change it well,.

H

That's the passion of the feature right. Your question was different, like: why? Is it not probe property? Why.

C

H

Like options think so the option is passed to the main method where you, basically you know, authenticate this client or authenticate a server or via originally it was like only their constructor. So we passed all the arguments we a constructor. The number of number of comparator parameters grew up so large that we decided go with the other option.

C

You know with the options back, maybe I totally misunderstood the feature. I thought from the original explanation that it's on the server side, the client a basically the client sends me. The hostname and I can detect it on the server side. So this is not. The options are like I pass them in. This is kind of like you know, I am getting that the option that the client sent me yeah, the the.

B

Problem the reason it needs to be a call back is the the code that wanted to be a TLS server already had to call go, be a server now and that's like a calls authenticated server, and if that method does not return into the client until a connection is fully established. But you need to pick the certificate as part of that method. So so you need to start authenticated server. Then you receive an S and I header.

B

Then you need to make a choice and then you go back but you're still in this one walking mess. So if in the BAS we would choose to instead of having.

I

Two servers to.

D

Get option: if you choose to have a callback, then you would probably be able to set the properties online. So this way like they come up with kind of preference to that public. Since we already chose the strength, then the fingers we get. The options essentially can change. Whenever I.

C

See you basically I see we now painted ourselves in the bit of a corner which is the protocol is very complicated. There are lots of things going on, but we don't have ideas for them, but there is an order of them. So we need to now help delegates that basically represent the pieces of code that you would write if the code was actually imperative.

C

You could as well leave it an extent.

H

C

Don't let you write those lines of code, but there is a they said block of code, the trans kind of in the middle, and it cannot be just an API on top of a stream yeah.

B

C

Because we're handling it, you know for.

B

The customer, the client.

C

B

Client model also has a thing like this: that uses a callback of the client can technically choose a client authentication certificate after the middle of the handshake and.

C

B

C

We basically try to hide everything for.

B

C

The user, and then we realize that you cannot hide everything. Well, the part of knowledge, yeah.

B

20 years ago, the protocol didn't have any options.

H

It has extensibility model, and this is one of the extensions right so.

C

Yeah, okay and.

B

This end up, that's as well, because of the existing API.

D

So, what's very good, often like if exactly fine balance on G host name or the host name, Emerson volatile or something for whatever reason it quickly, I think planned or something. Then we just call the callback refer as a host name and the.

J

D

String can never make is another reaction, so you know so when I get.

C

The call back what can I change some properties like what.

H

C

Several certificates, you.

H

Can decide which server certificates to return? It's.

C

Just just the certificate yeah and any other in none of the other things can be changed right. You don't expect that yeah, because basically, you know like I will sure that this signature that just returns to it is the right signature because it closes the door for I want to change some other things.

I

Other things they want to change, we always have more hope, yeah, that's right. What do you look for? Well,.

C

Let's say you know like at some point: we realize, oh in the middle of this comeback, we want to change some other properties on the options.

H

Very possibly no options are static, kind of they're, not pair requests right. The options are kind of like general class setting. The callback is invoked by request, so you indirect, like oh yeah, I, want to store some second information. But honestly, if you would want to do that, you would probably hold it on the side.

H

Then somehow associate its. You know yourself. If you can get it to the session, did they just make another.

A

Question, which is if I know me only they ultimately don't give you access to anything else. We've done intentional. What.

K

If you ever want to add some more data, it passes this to the first thing. What is this mystery? Man is not the boy I guess, but.

D

Those so like, since this is like this is a callback you can I think closure.

A

Well, but I have to create a callback before I have a request, so I, don't I, don't get the Telugu.

D

If there is like any data, do you can change? Technically, you can have a reference to whatever you want to cooperate. There's like that.

A

The phone book touches the corner. Forget that I'm saying create the option you didn't before. You even have a request right, so don't have any way to store request related data in my closure, because I I only have that once I constructed the whole thing so like I exhibit some parts to me on school, but if they, if I, can get it from the center than this one excuse bit of her like a very heavy ended back to war, but I, guess it yeah.

C

I think we need to go with it. I mean I still think that it's kind of weird that, like underneath there is a protocol that is very imperative and if they change the protocol, they just say hey. This new thing is happening or this newest, since we kind of the whole sequence, the handshake we kind of have to invent cold ballads, they have to have signatures that potentially are limiting, but I guess we are there, so I mean if.

D

You chose to it designed another business, much general and.

D

C

I mean the you know that you see.

D

The underlying API.

C

So super you know complicated so with.

A

Lily or context I'll take like you know, whatever arguments you that so we have. No, you know event arts pattern there, which means every scene time on a date or have, but then would not suffer Penelope that it is one of the things that are only on the options that already that.

C

A

C

The worst case, if we ever need to add more, you can just add another property that, like this another delegate and then code them both yep I mean it's not idea, but it's not the end of the world. I just decided it well.

H

You would probably say like if you, if you said both it's an error right, you know you can shoot your soup either.

D

H

Or the other, when you are the dish you can do that and.

D

They want one question on the open question is: should the Kobayashi give us soon.

H

So Before we jump to that actual I would run by by Jermaine. We want to throw the authentication exception or any case under you know when the color is also get. Does that sound reasonable to you.

B

Or if they return it, all you can go with whatever they gave you in the constructor I mean the certificate yeah unless you're throwing right now. If they give you both the callback and a certificate security like.

D

I'm so gently I mark this option, something from Bali right. Second Chandra, that's.

B

D

B

If your API says that you can't set both of them.

D

You know my vision exactly except office.

B

H

Use it only an error thing it you know, so it would be more explicit like it or if you know about better exception, if you have opinion some better exceptions in the space I.

B

Mean you if it's not if it's a thing that the methods already does documented is throwing, but it seems fine, if it's not it's, probably not it's. It. I.

G

Sort of was a pushing them if it's already something be throw from the space.

B

His authentication exception I currently documented.

D

Exceptional method of cancer.

D

I saw if you have only two types of exceptions: API, so one is like body.

D

C

It be cheaper to actually do what Jeremy proposed. So let me imagine that you, basically most of the calls, are to some hope to the default host, and then you just return null. We already have the certificate because it was passed. Two options versus in this design I always have to return the certificate and how do I get it where I have to somehow get it, which may be more costly than just using the one that we have in the default options.

C

What so imagine that, basically, most of the time you getting a call to host one and that's your default host and that and certificate for this one you already provided in fact, if we can return known well most of the time you wouldn't have to do anything each method, you just check because name equals host 1 return. Now, if we throw an exception in case, you return null you always even if it's your default host is called 99.9 percent of the time you have to retrieve sample this certificate and return it, which.

H

C

H

Static and just return instead of returning now right returning our study equals the difference from your I.

C

Mean you have to somehow you have Malcolm to get called, you have to have a static and you have to buy unity provided in the options. Now you have to have a static. In addition, you didn't.

B

Provide it options. Well, I mean I like to me. It makes sense to let the options carry the default cert and let s and I release it and null means don't replace it. That's how I would.

B

Yeah, it looks like.

A

B

Well, it's hey. They said that they would like to connect the API subnet. Do you have a special search for that? No mana card I'll use the default, and then they say: hey I want to talk to beta. That API is up nine you're like oh. You need to use this up. Sir yeah. The default certificate is.

C

Does not have a closely associated you saying like before this delegate is even called. We could check the host mate, but we don't have the host name I. Think, because if you turn it on alpha beta but yeah.

B

So I would like, if you like, Apache with there s and I set up, you can tell them. This is the default and then, if it, if the host is this use this guy? If it's this use this guy, so yeah.

C

B

Just basically.

C

This delicate would be to override the default yeah. It would not be giving me a certificate, or course.

B

So again, I like I I, think it's and then the it's less change on a caller of existing stuff. If they're passing and the thing that they're passing in right now becomes the default using the way that they're passing it in and then they want to send them, what they want are the other takes to.

D

Throw an exception.

B

Turns out of NATO and exceptionally feels.

D

D

C

You explicit throw you check if hosting equals host, one throw authentication exception.

K

If you want to fight that arming or you know, default, throw or whatever just.

B

D

Basically, really it have certificates.

K

You know, if you I would just say they returned a line all.

B

Right I think that makes more sense as a caller if it's but.

D

I, don't have a strongest reference.

B

G

B

K

B

Super strong opinion- maybe it goes back to to Christoph's, like maybe you're, now, causing a capture to exist, in fact you're having your, maybe having to use a delegate or a delayed lookup or a lambda. Instead of Adelaide lookup words, you have to either use a lambda where you've captured a variable or use it the length look up every time the callback gets fired or go to a static when what you really wanted to do was I'm the initializer go.

B

Do all the stuff I want set the default move on with life, but I don't want another closure to get captured. I just want to do the implicit go. Call this static function that I wrote so by requiring someone to provide the default on every call, instead of letting the passage and your other options you're, forcing it to create closures. Well,.

C

You know you've got it's kind of said. If it's seen the static, you don't need to provide closure, but I think static script. The problem that they are kind of dangerous.

C

All right, like random code, can change. It I mean it's yeah, so you have to have an additional static field that otherwise you would not happen, but.

B

I mean if somebody does something in their callback, they're going to have to either have looked it up for other hosts or have their own callbacks or their own bound variables or whatever. So it doesn't really super Atlanta case. You will.

K

Get the option the same instances.

A

As basically requests, so they don't want to do that. I have to store the options in the static yeah.

B

The question is: when the callback fires do you want to have had a capture or closure captured over the function.

A

B

A

Practical terms very talkative: all settings are dangerous in order for me to warden a location for a request. I have to take the entire option in the setting like just move it.

H

Doesn't hook you right, you don't call it parallel or a request or Berlin you session. You.

B

Call a authenticated.

H

Server and it set up and set up, and it's kind of like his head link incoming you know, session starts and for each or requests or whatever writing request for musician and each of them they'll call the callback.

A

Positive one donut feeds me and then I call that he hit a server. Isn't that pretty oh yeah.

B

K

B

You have to give it the network stream that's operating on, which means if the network stream disclose you have to make a new object. Wrapping the new network stream think they can renegotiate a session except the Canton TLS one three, because I get rid of it.

A

B

You just basically see other way it does any.

A

Amount of stuff, aesthetic right, there's a lot of things. You could imagine it's a higher layer or something.

B

Yeah so again like it, it really is feels like six of one half-dozen, the other doesn't matter the first time 5e to be here. It's just.

G

You know what do you prefer: Bubb, plus plus guys field on team if they have preference, because almost.

H

Lettuces feature for them almost nobody else, I, usually never so, but.

B

It feels weird to me that to me, if, like I expect, I would feel that the callback returned null means do whatever you wanted to do. Instead of you should throw an exception now, because I returned mold, I thought.

H

Here that you know when we have this server certificates, that we suddenly use it as default and I have to go back so which one is precedence, and you have to think about that. If you basically said like you know, we have.

D

H

Choose which one to use it's kind of crystal clear, like heater I, have static callback, which is the date of the certificate versus here's. The code by I was.

D

A friend opinion, otherwise we can actually change it.

D

H

Right, the other interesting thing here actually is the.

I

You know holes in anybody who options at this point so extreme.

D

Versus read always bad yeah, so if we.

I

Really like: what's our decision, do we go with that propose or do we go with? Gasca is pita. Thank you. So we just asked taller or whatever doesn't register on so it doesn't change the surface. It does change the exception model right.

G

They know better how they use it and like looks or convenient afford for the users so yeah, because.

B

They're going to because they own the SSL stream and not the thing they're hosting, they would need to understand how they want their own configuration model play it like you, users, the asp.net site, is never going to see this because Castro or whatever took care of the difference.

A

Alright, so your ankles name.

H

Host name strength versus reap on this pan, because, by the you know, in the spec, is basically string bytes, it's called in RFC. By the way we had a similar discussion around LP Anna and we had like you know, do we go with strength versus? Are we gonna pass, read only spinal bites?

H

The difference is that you know if, if we pass strength, we have to do you know encoding another stop Unicode and that stuff, if it we only in span and which means, if you really have to allocate per you establish connection unless we catch it in future and are read-only span but of renown span of bytes over there II, basically for the decoding and coding on the collar, which is kind of pushing it up the stack a little bit like less user. You know.

L

But I don't notice any way. You even need to do a.

C

Transcoding at all, you just compare it. The bytes that you are.

H

Wire, so does the thing you know there's like you know, one way what you get over the wire which does the pinnacle, like that it a should something whatever should never see that. So there is a reason like you might something smaller.

D

To transonic underway, so I get offered more respect like yesterday. So what the spec says in some cases they it's defined, that you should do the patient sensitive provision for the things like places where it's like, so that what this expresses. If the string is asking me, then.

D

But it doesn't deter.

D

But in the most of the cases in the client is already cannot do that for you, so they fight competition. You know so that's the most business.

H

Even a speed of Latinos dis, Chris Rose was voting for voting for strength of people like Tim Seaboard were voting as on LPN for written list span who bites their motivation for every donation is about pain performance. You don't have to in theory, allocate her. You know stream, uh for which I think that we've ever find that it's a problem. You can always catch because you're not going to get like ten thousand different, different lesson eyes right.

H

You know on the server you're gonna get, maybe ten, maybe I, don't know some number we can have a cache of like you know, hey if you see these bytes, it's this strength right, so you don't have to allocate. In theory, cache is like cosmic.

K

Powers framework.

B

More complicated, that's true to one thread: local static of: what's the last one I got or that it.

H

Makes it more complicated, I.

C

Don't say anything about that, but.

H

C

H

That we have a escape route for the. If the you know, a location per me must say so,.

B

It's C sharp somebody like people want to write, switch hostname case beta dot, api's I've got net : return, beta search. That's true about success feel like if you're using you.

D

Know it's c-sharp.

B

Developers will expect they can write a switch statement. You can't write a switch statement on a read-only span of bytes, so I think we should just return string and it's going to be low enough like yes, it's not it's not not allocating, but it's low and it'll be gins zero and not I'm, not not that okay, it is not not allocating, but.

M

Yeah well, I mean we face it. It's allocating you don't want to say the word and well I mean like a stuff.

B

Been doing abundantly.

M

Oh Katie and you say not.

B

Not allocating not allocating this violates that principle, but it maintains what c-sharp users expected and.

C

It violates your engineering, I statics to allocate so say not not allocated.

N

C

N

A pondering, that's what I want.

C

Yeah but then we're gonna, start dinner, hashing that and allocate and basically compute the hash table at the time with a tiny bit and don't you have to wait so yeah I yeah, if not for the casing, issue, I would say: let's just go for a span, given that we cut the casing, you should I, don't feel as strongly yeah.

B

I mean if, if the, if the TLS protocol called out explicitly that you must send the lower case, and it must be puny code, so everything is legitimately ASCII and therefore anybody who's not doing that is wrong. Then I would say such license reason not specifically, that's specifying that you should unicode.

D

They, what they say is that this is a utf-8 encoded string and then you should kind of contain certain characters. And then you should do the coding properly, but it doesn't set it right.

B

So I think they supportable, if it said, must be puny code or must be ASCII or Unicode and must be lower case. Then I would say, send the bytes otherwise symmetry.

B

It's also going to be terrible for anybody who cares about doing I DNA, because they're theoretically going to have to either run it through the P Unicode decoder manually or they're, going to have to switch on both the utf-8 and the PD code, value which sometimes.

N

N

B

Already string so now they can switch on string to lowercase, so they can correct. The fact of the spec was student, so.

K

You're, saying is the word: the Perseid, which policy I mean.

B

Alternatively, we can always run it through the pinochle decoder before we call the callback, but that's a functional decision. Yeah.

C

So one thing we could do it: it's not crazy. We could just in place change the bytes lowercase, assuming a ski.

C

But that maybe gets into too much magic as the moment.

B

That somebody sends a capital, Greek gamma, not puny code, encoded, I, don't know what we do. That's.

C

B

C

Love already doesn't.

B

Follow the spec, so we just throw.

C

An exception: the conversion is actually relatively inexpensive and we have any permutation, but I don't know who.

A

They're just really wide span worse because the leg at the end, you still say the collar- is responsible for ending in the way. The way well.

C

Because it's super convenient to say to lower when you have.

D

C

A span of bite, as I said we have an API to do it, it's not so convenient and so foolproof. Why.

A

Don't we have it on this one off the chart? Slowly had it well.

C

That one is naturally dummy span of Chara. They.

F

Said I, don't let.

C

My to be- or we don't wait, but we can't really. We don't stand up Charo everybody, but that would cause an allocation. So we may as well give you a string. The moment we convert from utf-8 or utf-16. We we are locating buffered. Oh I, see really saying yeah.

B

I see so this is single byte characters turning into multi by character, so they want to send bytes. The only identity know.

M

How to the work place? Okay, well,.

C

And you can switch genders.

M

As much saying yeah.

C

M

C

M

Totally understand how.

C

Important is this allocation here, like 1 prayer requests, yeah but 1 out of 1000 or 1 out of 2, because if it's 1 out of 2, maybe we should go with the read of the span of by T plus one out of a thousand egregious no.

M

C

Its policy probably.

E

Hello Kitty sure it's not too much with a thousand, but I would go with it on the tooth. It may or may not be.

B

The tipping point to force a general collection on every request, I said.

A

What but one out of a thousand.

B

A

It hosting that pulled the under 30 characters for the most part, but like.

D

A

It's eerie, I, don't know, but they're never done like how much listen. You can have an iconic thing kept open hardware, like I mean you are I'll, have one which means that.

K

C

Possible way so.

L

C

Am okay would be their solution. The way I would do it. I would measure how like what's the percentage and it to an inquest because of the allocation, not even measure just like guesstimate. You know somebody who understands how the code works and how much, but because, if you basically, you know, adds hundred percent to the existing allocations, then I will go with a span if it adds one.

D

Percent than you well, let's just say: history is a straight.

I

B

I think strings, I think strings. The more natural thing I can understand by or the radome expand a place, but I think that'll, just I think the read only span up I would push people away or every answer on Stack Overflow or the answers on Stack Overflow will be here's how you turn it to a string and then you can use it the switch statement, which means we should have just done it that way.

B

Granted. That means that they can be 0 allocation if they want to, but I think we should just go with the string and if we find out later, we can make a new call reduction. Oh and look ahead, allocate a call back.

C

The comb is allocated once for it.

B

Better depends on how they do it, but yeah. Well, if they're stupid, of course well. No, if they do the very sensible thing, a c-sharp, 2.0 spec bug does the wrong things. Do I want to know more. If you invoke it, if you pass a delegate by passing the name of a static function, it has to create a new delegate object every time you do that, instead of creating one static field that it references a plane because of the words the same adds in the spec.

B

It says this is the same as new delegate type of whatever new as an.

K

Allocating side effect.

B

And for some reason, Jared.

H

I have to think that this will be as well, like you know, a similar to Albion from the perspective and if, if somewhere, we should save, you know allocations and that's all. We probably owe on both client side and server side as well.

B

Yeah I think that before this kind of thing gets, mattified you'd essentially be redesigning the entire SSS and.

D

B

Super bowl-like you'd need to start over with the idea of having it as the very.

D

B

And you'd probably just hit it with a parallel type.

J

Aniseh, so stream is kind of on our watch lists to give some loss. If it would be awesome, they just said door opens. The second callback is always viable. Yes, that is true, but yep.

A

And you can always just walk in hard on that path. Yeah.

E

A

It is open or someone wants to go, that's easy.

E

Right yeah, it's always enough.

A

All right so then, let me just so: we go in with the current shape. That means I, don't know much.

B

I guess, as a French question, you've added that the callback model works on all your platforms.

D

This thing is great: why would it not work on this jet attractive on getting the right price on Windows, OS, X, I'm.

B

D

Your licensing.

B

Declined hello directly, not just making sure that all of the different libraries that we're using allow you to have started the server thing without specifying the server surgeon to specify it later via call that like if, because Tim's comment at the end, was s channel takes in an array of certificates? So if any platform needs it as pre handshake setup, as you can't do this model at all? So so you have a you.

A

D

B

Two options: not yeah.

D

B

Is fine if you can make it work, if you can't make it work, you better find out soon, because you need to come back with a new proposal which actually okay.

C

Even if, let's.

B

Assume that we.

C

It would work this callback model, wouldn't it be better model if you, basically, when you create the options, you gave it a dictionary game to give it a dictionary.

B

You can't make that non. Allocating I know.

C

But at least it's kind of like you know it took me like five minutes understand. Why are we doing this callback? And basically my confusion was that we have an option like when you create the thing you pass on the options. It knows everything about the shape. You know a handshake.

B

So you want dictionary of strings certificate and null as the key is the default. Now, if you pass basically maps from your mapping from qostoul yeah.

E

B

The oh, if the hostname is nice, but so.

E

Try give value.

B

Thingy returns false, so then I say, try get value null and then that's the default certificate and but.

C

Having said that, I mean you know, like I, don't know if what.

D

Do you want to put one of this hours the maintenance.

C

D

I mean the dictionary I.

B

Mean again like with the reminder that you have to make a new SSL stream objects and you have to call authenticate a server every single connection that comes in you just change your dictionary. So especially if you keep a reference to the dictionary because you can do whatever you want totally destroy the behavior of this class. So start dynamically plugging away things.

C

But I, don't you know yeah.

B

It's a good idea.

C

So degree, everyone's good, if.

B

You, like the I, understand the callback because it has centered you with the client model and, if you, but if you find a platform, they can't do it then you're enough charity to a dictionary input absolutely so this feature especially.

H

In two point one is you know if we can make it and if you can make it in time, so so they're not gonna push in crap the 4s.

B

Charo I mean test. I was four Tim had a comment that says s channel expects it as an array of certificates possible. They have two modes, one with a or the preset map and the other with a callback but I. Don't I can't tell you off the top of my head. If Apple's gonna, let you do this and I can't tell you I'm stopping ahead of OpenSSL. So let you do this. What.

J

You want to do up my.

B

One job is to point out to other people the risks that they have any consideration: I'm a principal, a jobs not to do any work. It's to tell other people or to.

H

The snarky Department lightning.

B

H

Very all for something like well I was gonna, say, I, promote.

B

I've been like this CIO of the snark Department the whole time I've worked here, he's.

A

Circumcised me, how are you alright, so I think that's it, because this one is not ready and then we're done for today, as the only as I put it down to things in the my stone which.

F

A

F

Before we go running out of time, that's going to actually be refugee. Do that bro! We're not going to take I, know pushing I'm, pushing on polar yeah, so.

B

Out of the hours and hours and hours of meetings we've had so far on memory of tea, we so far have decided we're renaming retain that takes a bull to the pin. Okay.

C

H

E

B

Our green and then remove retain and release so there we go. It's now been talked about this game. Yeah.

C

I actually so interesting me, we are kind of running out of time. It would be good if we reviewed the changes, because basically there is a subset of changes that we agreed to and there's another subset that is still being discussed and Fowler again is going back and forth.

C

I'm glad that he's now yeah, no I'm, not that he's now agreeing with me, but it's kind of I, almost was happy that I was the only person opposing some one of the proposals because he find the only one you know I get overruled and we move move forward. Now, if I found a red agrees with me, it just throws a wrench into the whole. This kind.

A

Like a voice from the off saying achievement, unlocked.

C

Is that what it is sounds.

A

Like so I think the only other you know which should probably take all the tweaking hacker proposals include them together at some point, because there's a lot of.

A

F

A

Have a timeline for that he'll. Do you know it's not to one? That's why it's not! Why no but like how urgent is that for the whatever the next were no.

H

Idea, you're asking the wrong person. Okay, you have to talk with us a bit Carol and Eric and honestly I, look at all beneath you as well too, because I don't know how to how the Intel intrinsic spent I think that.

A

Dr. which I think because I have no idea with the mean I know it's a lot of AP, and then we put them partially because it was a lot of API. You feel like because enough coverage, and then in but I think we need to publish fun notice if you wanna get any sort of like typical Louis and they think it's you that you need to almost have a standalone, nearly a package that people can all over. If.

H

You wanna, do you want to have preview package with all these things, so they can be.

B

One probably the.

H

B

I think that what they were doing is they put everything in a namespace. They had experimental in it to indicate you daily in the personal with things, but anyway, like I, think it can eat some advertisements and blog post whatever.

A

B

A

On top of that, yes,.

B

Yeah yeah they they seem to know that nothing's been reviewed and every every single now and they have may get rewritten by the time that they go full production. I. Think.

A

The hard way intrinsics one like I, think naming wise. It's mostly straightforward, as in like you know, whatever, whatever mess up name, this thing has to just spell it out, but it's mostly about the design of like how we broke down the specs. It decides and see whether that's a program model. It actually works out.

A

B

I mean some of the ones that I've seen I think that the attempt to try and take the short name of the manufacturer, documented assembly instruction and try and make it a long name, actually makes it harder to understand. Yeah it's when essentially it's when, because some of the ones for like the shop shall want to cha to processing where it's. This instruction got broken into pieces, because the registers only so wide and it's like trying to describe that is like first half and second half, it's probably just better to just name it.

B

The opcode and.

A

Honestly, like I'm long I mean I, think I'm holding on to this, because that's exactly what didn't I did not call them. I just said this is you know, LDC I just have to it's.

B

Like if you want to know what LG c i3 does and you hit that one I don't.

A

Want Christmas think about that, but I think they honestly, the purpose of API is I. Name is mostly disability more than anything and activity. If you can go up things because you don't know what the final code is called on itself, yeah.

B

So yeah so for intrinsics I think that we that we possibly want to violate all of our naming rules and just write it down exactly the way that the assembly is a name so lowercase bad, you know drop most of them out, you know, etc. It's like if Intel calls this like SHL three to a and like we should just call it as a gel three to a yeah I mean casing. I think is, but.

C

We're now, okay, single good, we did. The negative of trying to tweak casing is sometimes it's not clear what the casing should be, and then we are wasting a lot of time trying to decide what the casing should be yeah, but we could I mean in case it doesn't, does not impact search ability the ground. Can you come in I? Think.

B

That we should have good C, sharp names on the namespace, and if we have want to do, the bundling of things like this is the SSE instruction set. Then we have like. Oh, this is SSE, which really means all of these opcode should light up together. So you have one is SSE available question and like there are things that we can do around that to be good, but when it comes to the individual opcode set, I probably am more in favor of writing down whatever is going to be in the processor manual, but.

C

Still I would say that we should look at few yeah and if it's clear how we would Pascal case it, we should just do it yeah if it, if we kind of like grew I, don't know how to Pascal case this weird yeah, you know set of characters because they are not either words now not acronyms. Then prom up, you should just use what what it says stay.

J

A

A

And what your recommended Navy is emulating audiences, but.

K

A

K

Know it's okay, because boats.

A

Well, I guess we kind of had an easy thing here because basically have Adlai Stevenson that comes often underscore or restore that so they're.

C

On their spoons.

A

Yeah because you know turns out second, oh you just think: that's not you.

A

When I eldest acting blocks, right, I think I was not separated. I thought this.

A

We could have probably just not use.

K

A

K

C

Yeah, so we get this one, it is kind of past cupcakes. It is predictor. If you know the pattern, you know it's called. You know all lowercase move dot. Oh yeah, for example. Look this red any type.

L

C

Any type, just type red any type, yeah.

A

C

One is also the same issue is basically it's several words and we don't Pascal case them all which I attended single word. We will capitalize are and a Honor I think this. Basically, if we said this is our convention just capitalize the first one Judy there's a limit work yeah, it kind of would look more see Sharky, but we wouldn't have to spend like shouldn't need. Uppercase, M, Lower, Keys, hey uppercase, R, Upper, Keys, ferry yeah or m'kay should be both.

B

Uppercase cuz yeah, like we get I, don't want to spend hours and hours, sha-1 I, guess it's probably sha-1 next e, but like sha-1 any xte. It's like I actually read that a sha-1 in XT because, like I'm, used to X to be a gun here defensive well, but this is Shaw one message: one got one message tube: that's the I need bigger registers.

L

Alright, so let me stop this feeling. I think we're done.

C

For the day, so, should you.

L

C

About the memory changes sure, because a we need to like do them as soon.

N

As possible, oh so I.

C

Want to even even.

N

C

If, even if we don't like formally approve it now, let me give you like an overview what's happening so then, possibly a shutdowns.

N

C

The Latina this is another breaking change, is a breaking change. He.

B

Murdered you shall.

C

Now meet by another, we.

B

Should shut down already.

M

Had a few wet one.

F

H

So they had to react to a.

F

G

H