.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 19 Feb 2019

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From YouTube: .NET Design Review: JSON Serialization

Description

We'll review the new lean & mean JSON serialization/deserialization for .NET Core 3.0. This time, we're focusing a bit more on the shape of the data types and attributes.

https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/34372

A

B

Was just sharing his revenue plan for making new books.

B

All right so I think this is the updated issue. These do you want to walk us through it? What's the change from last time, yeah I'm sure.

C

D

um On this title page here are you: are you streaming YES on this title page I did add a bullet that was requested about expectations for using Jason net versus this. So that's the I guess under the first main bullet, um read that basically I mean one of the reasons why we're doing this is so that we can replace a subset of people using a subnet. So anyway, I just made that explicit, as was asked for the last review, that's the only changes on the top.

D

So if you want to scroll down to the main basin serializer api.

D

Okay, I did not xml doc. These yet I mean I will do that, of course before the code review, but it just clutters it up so much. That's nice I think to look at it all at once. Here.

D

Basically, everything stays the same, except for the naming here um in a typo or two. So instead of Jason converter, Dodd from two methods is Houston serializer, dot, readwrite methods, some of the parameter names changed to say like utf-8 JSON, instead of just JSON, for example, or just reader or just writer, otherwise, I guess I'll just wait a minute until everyone kind of absorbs this and in March the comment time.

E

The reason the race that returns string a bite look weird to me.

E

Sorry, what would sure they're reading the reads and writes the right that returns by terrain yeah was weird how's it normally when you, when you write you write to something. If you, if you're getting something back, you do it too number difference. I mean it makes sense for the read and write to be like named that way, because they're taking a stream or whatever, but if you're returning the actual thing that you've written yeah, it's normally to blah, you know ride. The name implies.

B

A side effect yeah.

E

B

You're constructing the idea.

E

So it fits for the stream mystery meant by traitor, both love, but the whatever turns by the Rays pen, there's more like to basing they.

B

Think originally they leave it of the other way around, but if everything was to Jason um and then giving the feedback and said, we don't want this for the other ties, but I think this is probably an example where we should go the other way around again right, because I think it would be easier to understand this way.

B

Well, I have the API at all the folks on auction.

B

Think eventually we want an API.

F

Like that yeah I think the API has you Tony.

D

Okay, so the read and write and I guess, right, string and and read string methods or thinking, maybe switch back to front to one knows where.

B

The question is, what do you want and thanks for this thing, like every okay buh-bye, mostly you.

E

C

B

We eventually regret that choice, I'm gonna return, something.

G

B

You want, and you only add, an overload to that, but you don't want to have look if you make it too generic as a name, then it's hard to had an overload so why this method doesn't follow our general.

C

Pattern of taking the batter.

F

Isn't good banana to the right one good? Why.

C

E

C

Have a right you'd have to return.

E

C

Consume because then you try.

E

C

They expand yeah and then you could possibly marketer. You can pass many things. Yes,.

H

But if you don't know how big look, if you want this method just to do the whole, like just return, the data to me, do whatever ld1.

E

H

Need to do yeah this man.

E

Is the tryi whites consumed this? Is we will do common enough? There will be people who just want the ease of giving me a buffer, that's big enough and if.

C

Somebody just wants to write it efficient into their own booth. What do they do? Maybe there should be a new bat.

D

C

D

They can use stream, although the string methods are a sink right now requires allocation. Okay, it's tracking the biter, Italy yeah, anything the.

B

Other questions like is, it is the other one efficient though like imagine you getting. Your spine is not big enough, like on all the other HP has given that you say how many bytes you have written. You can at least resume this one basis to resume the visualization, probably I, don't think I can incrementally see, let's not drag rather than any say any way. It.

E

Can actually, it is.

I

E

Can now between.

B

E

B

You own the only thing you have it. Well, if you, if you return the state, maybe but it, the only thing you know is the number of by the answer.

I

B

I

Are a lot of double compute work that would be needed if we had an API that returned get basically get how many bytes this work right understand how far I got if.

B

You run a policy.

E

B

Video you pulled it. I would expose this year 11. It's.

C

A lot of no I think what he was saying is there could be an API chips, first measure you measure, and then you have to pass in it. You know that's.

H

Quite a significant.

C

Changes all the way down through I will I, don't know, we should think about it. I didn't.

D

Also I I think we can add these later in some ways anyway, I mean it's especially the one that you pass in our buffer there. There are also the I buffer writer worked at the pipe uses which can auto denim.

B

So how does this work for things like that? Api, like is the expectation that, for the most part, if even if you could determine the buffer size that the output actually fits the single buffer? Well, is it not true that most of the time, you would have to do multiple buffers.

E

B

In which case is spanned really what we want without some sort of state, because I think if you would return a state and makes utilization effectively incremental and I think having a span based API would make sense, because then you could implement the effectively.

H

Typewriter one we almost on top of us, we can, you would be inventing an entirely new kind of serialization that there's no precedent for anywhere else in the framework or in any third-party library. I.

E

Will say: that's just happened today internally and it's really cool when I works in super efficient by exposing it we can I mean.

B

We can't do it on the reader to us or under the Jason reader of it, because if you have to unwind the frame like how do you know, experience.

J

B

And yeah, then that's what your pleasant again but I don't think it's unclean I mean it. We just have to decide what the state is, and maybe the state most of state doesn't have to be even probably.

E

Yeah return this thing apart back and it's not so bad, but.

C

I I'm kind of with Steve- maybe we should postpone it.

E

I think it can be added later.

C

Without the problem we just said you might have to decide that basically takes the state or sometimes well.

B

The reason I bring it up is because it's the same discussion, I, have a father and an are speakers that well how low do we want I breed a vibrator to be, and how old do we want? This live it to be right, because, right now we can either say the Jason lever depends on the pipes or we can say. Pipes depends on Jason because have to put the API somewhere.

G

B

In neither choice.

G

Is great if you can.

B

Nurse say: there's a state object and we just have a very simple API. Then they can implement everyone easily. On top there's.

H

Not any quick, like the the most the easiest way to make this allocation free, while still controlling your own spans, would be to just pull apart-er instance.

C

See what have some trouble astray? Oh yeah I mean that is easily well. We could introduce this facing ibotta right there and it would also serve the price up.

D

Yeah, actually my what we probably want that eventually yeah so.

E

Yeah, so the the right that returns, the bytes, maybe the right verb on that one. It's serialize and it shouldn't look like a semi overloaded, the other guys, the second set of weed methods, the ones that are tasks of object, their their input parameters, are inconsistent. They should be utf-8 Jason to match all the other overloads yeah and should have returned by your task of teeth of Steve said test. Yeah are the for the worth of eternity. He's a hospitable to earn non-generic.

E

An object should be better, especially.

K

White I, can you can hear me? Yes, okay, yeah, so in the previous iteration I think read, async was returning tasks and write. Async was returning value tasks or something like that right and my back was well write. Async task is fine unless you can easily be very complicated, but for read async, it really depends on whether you expect these to be.

K

You know quickly completing like, if you can give this, if you're able to pool the pipe rider and stream or if you expect that the you know an individual typewriter stream is going to contain multiple things to do serialized one after the other or some such thing, then Rick and if the reading is likely to complete synchronously, which seems reasonable for small payloads, like tasks can make a lot of sense. Yeah.

H

Well, why don't just return to house still completed to ask at that point? No, because if you guys have object, but so far reads nothing right! Oh okay! Yes, yeah.

E

There should be the 550, they look at the bunch of.

K

That does raise a question I have, which is so, is it common Dan for a pipe reader or a stream to contain multiple things to be serialized one after the other, such that you've reuse them, or we expect these to be pooled in some way or have one what's the use case here so in Castro, for example, the the.

E

Pipe is cooled for the entire connection I'm, for it operates me to is pool / HP to stream, so you get the same type incidents across different requests. We reuse them over and over, but but the isin. The main case is that that the buffer will actually have the panel fully in memory before Kali read a bunch of cases, but should finish. Singly in I expect common cases where the you're sending a small payload from the client yeah.

K

My question about reusability was Moore's in terms of if you were having to allocate a pipe reader and everything that came with it. Every time you called read: async yeah the task itself isn't going to matter, but if you're able to pull those than I value, toss main clauses yeah.

E

We can get some so for the most part. Anything on that you'll have one pipe reader for connection they'll be reused for the entire connection, so it's useful to not have to allocate here.

E

Also in for signaler, we have long-running connections and you're pressing a bunch of pillows over all that I love Lauren can I can I think it would be valuable tie up the thing the Holika it's like if we can avoid it, but Steve I thought that if, if anybody used a sink and a weight, but since that was forcing the allocation from the state machine anyway, task was just better because it didn't do that, come in to extract it out of a struct I thought.

K

If it's synchronously completing that's not the case, so if it's a, if it's the non-generic it all your task, that's the case. That's all right, because if it's completely synchronously you can just return test. I completed task versus defect, but if it's a returning thing, so a value task of T versus task of T, if it's synchronously completing in one case, you generally need to allocate a task and the other you don't. So that's why? When we initially introduced value test, it was entirely about. We didn't have the non generic one and it was.

K

You only had the generic one and it was entirely about the synchronously completing case. It was only in two one that we also had an additional support in value task of teeth for the asynchronously completed case, and at that same time we had the non-generic value task as well.

D

Steve, can you give an example of on an async method and then have it returned synchronously? Do you mean there's no await calls or or something else, either.

K

There are no well, there are no more weights that you so basically yeah. So if you, if you will even await a hundred things, but if all the things you awaited we're already complete by the time you awaited them, then your methods gonna complete synchronously. So, for example, you read: if you await memory stream done, read async that will that we, they sync, is always gonna complete synchronously, because there's no actual asynchrony there.

K

So when you await it, if your weights, just gonna kind of be in know off you're, just gonna fly right through, it call get results and keep running on another stream, like you know, buffered stream, for example, or file stream, which has a buffer in it. You know, if you're reading, let's say one byte at a time, and it internally contains a buffer, that's 80,000 bytes, then seventy, nine thousand, nine hundred and nine nine of your weeds are gonna complete synchronously. It's only you know.

K

The last time was the first time offers empty that you go to read. Then it's actually going to have to do an underlying network operation or whatever, and it's likely to complete asynchronously.

D

Okay, well, I can say that all of these async methods will you know either a weight on a flush or a read or write. But yeah I don't know internally whether you know like.

K

Inflating in the relays in case an asp net from david's comments, it sounds like the pipe reader is likely are gonna contain several k worth of data by the time read, async is called, and so when it goes to read from that pipe reader, you know, even though it's awaiting those awaits are gonna complete the thing they await the awaited thing is going to be already complete by the time you wait it so those awaits aren't actually introducing any asynchrony and, as such read this read. Async will likely also complete synchronously.

E

That means they should be by you task of object and by task of T V value, yeah I.

K

Think, from my perspective, from what everything I know, the read async should return value task of T and the right async should return task. Yeah.

D

Different I mean they're gonna have the same payload size, for example, so.

K

The the right a sinks. So if you have a non-generic asker value task, then there's no there's no benefit to value tasks or completing synchronously, because you can just return past on completion tasks and there's actually some negative value to return value tasks, because it's actually bigger I guess you know two pointer size instead of one pointer size. So when it's stored in the caller state machine is actually gonna make their state machine bigger. Now in the grand scheme of things, does that matter? Who knows?

K

And if we really wanted, you know symmetry well, okay, we can have everything returning value tasks, but the only place here that I see real value, no pun intended and returning you tasks on, read, async and there's additional benefits sort of turning tasks and that the API is easier to use that.

G

K

If we really believe that in the future there were additional optimizations, we could do even for the asynchronously completing case I kind of doubt it but I believe we could have it returned. Id.

L

Okay, this API lives in a not-not-not standard compliant package. You'd have to multi, bagger and JPA stuff is done. No.

K

We've got a scanner at standard 1.3 or something package that type forwards on that core yeah. Okay,.

D

Okay, so um is the thinking man for the read a cig methods. We were turned belly task of object, yes, I'm back task of t-value, yeah, okay and but for the rights just leave them as they are.

K

That would be my recommendation, but I would be I care more about the meeting.

D

We'll change their order to the worst anyway, Christopher.

K

You can say, sir well.

C

I, if we are done with this async palette, I start discussion. I wanted to come back to the return, invite array: how do we do you have to do you measure and allocate the right size or you would allocate larger array right to it and then copy.

D

Yeah we are there's a default buffer size um on the options class and if it's specified will use that, otherwise we use 16, K and so will allocate initial memory pool buffer and then grow that as needed. And then, when we're done copy it into the proper sized library, yeah.

C

So will it make sense now that I'm thinking to return memory of right, then we don't have to actually potentially it may be no copy on your attack, because basically you can pass a very large one to the options you get memory, but basically we rise to this buffer and then we slice and return memory of light and the violence lasting.

H

Memory fight is lush general, we'll use for mantra, spider right because fewer eighty I swear out the rest of the frame or ticket I.

C

Know, but this seems like little, you always gonna have a reallocation in the coffee. There's no way.

G

C

H

C

Could necessarily do that lucky to basic. You know you.

H

Could still do this in a completely allocation free way, you want it to and I.

E

Mean during implementation, detail.

H

E

I get you free, I mean it's one. You.

H

E

No allocate some has an internal.

H

Implementation detail they internally of we could pool pipe writers right to something backed by the array pool and then once we figure out what the entire discontinuous block is and.

G

H

We know how many bikes we've written. We now allocate a single byte array copy all of the chunks, one after another release every plant to all the pools and then return to yes,.

E

I'm saying that's a copy yeah, it requires a copy. Clearly, you could just use a memory stream and they get the internal rhythm every stream. Then you can't that's not every segment that requires multiple copies.

H

Every segmented.

E

H

C

Memory stream is gasps Larry single.

H

C

One resign yeah if we don't return memory of tea, this at least one cup. Yes,.

H

G

C

Saying that if I want to avoid any copies, I could contain a large buffer to options and never good. Oh yeah.

H

Yeah, this was what we were talking about earlier about having an overload that takes a buffer to write it well, but that one is more complicated because it requires.

C

State and the usage is kind of more complicated. I have to copy to be so I kind of understand. Well on it.

E

On this, the thing is, though, that the thing about the ownership of the return value, but it still have to be a cop because you can't return the pool memory from entirely. Fifthly, when you return to the pool well.

C

It's over, oh, no, yeah you, it cannot be pool there any.

C

I

Also is going to mess up things because then you can't reuse the buffer. If you return a memory of T from the backing buffer and don't do the copy, then you have no clue when the user and hanukkah and then so you can't reuse the buffer. What do you mean because of different from returning birth today, because that's something that the user owns we're? Creating a new array? Copying it and saying you know on this vs..

I

We are returning a slice for an internal buffer yeah, and now we can't reuse it because you have a copy of it. There has to be.

K

There's a difference, there's a difference, though in the case, if you can I get a an ADK buffer from the array pool, I write five bytes into it, and then I say you know a new array for those five bytes I get to keep reusing my ATK buffer, that's probably Gen, 2 and so on and just returned my new allocated by byte. If I instead take the ATK buff route of the pool, all right, five bucks bites into it and return back wrapped in a memory I'm now handing back ad hey where the am.

B

D

Also, a Gen 2 array.

B

Doing that yesterday.

D

B

You create a new array among the case, but don't give you back the array or just give you a basic.

G

B

T, which is the right slice like.

A

B

D

B

D

Solve this issue.

I

Right happy I'll hit, but then you're doing an ADK allocation every time, and so the only optimal way to use it would be to continue reusing slices of the unused portion of the buffer. No.

B

I

Can't do that. That's the same.

B

Here right, so, if you would try to bite away whatever by the right size, that is, you have to produce it every single time right, that's inner in to this API, but consumer said I'll. Do the exact same thing, except we don't give you back the value as an array.

B

They give you back this thing as a memory of C, so that if the array that we allocated happens to be larger than what we actually need it, we don't have to create a new one from we can just return the one and slice it down to the right side, pretty.

I

Sure the five bytes of copying is going to be cheaper.

H

So I think the actual implementation of this thing under the covers is going to use a series of byte arrays erected from the array. Poor memory stream or okay memories, memories trading bulbs, more than.

E

One copy, if only a few interim sizing, so you start, you start some capacity and then you add you write to it yeah and then you call triggered area which gives you the internal segment return that so.

H

Why don't? Why not just start with the array pulled out of memory stream, because, if you're doing a memory string now you haven't seen some because.

E

It hats it because you have to go from the array pool yeah to lucky, but for any way to return the. What why I'm saying is that if you use a heap allocated pool about anything in the first place, there's a copy required back to you right into it. You just pass the bucket back to the user right, otherwise,.

H

E

The, how good is your prediction yeah.

H

Okay, how much here nobody.

B

Can return the 4k.

E

But you so you said no memory stream, you use it for a key by default and then, if you write less than 40, you get it in buffer. You go over that every size and then.

H

Here's the thing right: if you go over there, you're now copying and copying and coffee sure.

E

I get it I got it. Oh yeah yeah. It's.

H

The thing we do I think I know well, we've we've known. We've now said that we now we now have a scenario which is probably relatively common, where we're ending up regressing performance significantly over just using a standard array that well well.

B

It's not for a second about the byte array or the general copy I.

E

B

The value of this API is not high performance, but I think this. It cannot be our primitive, the Licking but other things on top of right, because it we're not going to be efficient. If we really want the primitive operation that we can implement, other things like fire breather, pipe writer on top of it needs to be something like the state API. We talked about all right, so anything I do here.

B

It's all about people for whatever reason today, I need to eat by the Rays, because that's how the system exchanges things so formally, whatever you do with this video is not going to be efficient anyway. So, like I, think what this API is purely for interoperability and some amount of convenience and I would say that yeah we should not be super inefficient, but I also, don't think we need to be super efficient either like we can probably get.

K

Sizes here, so what? What are typical payload sizes.

H

Probably more than four.

K

Okay, for what, for the reason for the race, how many bytes is this thing generally deserializing into an object? Well, we're talking rights, though correct yeah, right, sorry, how.

H

K

How many bytes is this thing generally serializing.

E

K

Object more than four kpi more than 4k, probably.

E

But you, wouldn't you thought yeah, okay, three! You guys dream it guy right. So this is the this. Is somebody who's, just writing a simple little application. They want to. They they've got this object and they want to see realize it even for whatever reason they think that they're want the bytes back afterwards, instead of just writing it to an output stream. I think that the the extra copy your data copying memory is fast, it was fit to a high waiting on epoxy is not good, though I think.

D

We need this API, no matter what so it's just a question of. Do we need another API, no.

E

It's the person is more should be quite of your memory, but.

D

Raise well I was but I I think that, like, for example, we have a write string which returns a string, and we have a right that they're terms of byte array. Just for you know, if anything symmetry um you can have a water turnbuckle. So the problem is if it returns byte array. What do you call the.

E

One there's a memory right right, remember right! Well,.

H

We don't have any I actually came in correctly on this I. Don't think we have any api's in the framework that just out of whole cloth create a memory of teeth backed by the TRA and to you correct, I, don't think we've had I, don't think we've added any. Yet. My guess is that we usually have right to span.

E

Or return intimate yeah which, because it forces callers to copy and create like properly. But.

H

If the, if the common use case is going to be like I, have a memory of tea I need to do it into an array all right now there are two topics: the.

E

Thing is: there are some cases where you need to call it yeah, because you want to send bytes somewhere else, so, for example, in Sigma for edits, we can't actually write to this stream, because the client may be on to the machine yeah so but get put into a biter. It didn't get sent up the wire. The best way that you would do that is. You would use a memory stream. You would reallocate your, but for you a call right in the stream, you send your data out. You reset it to zero.

E

You call so save.

G

You, if you want per don't.

E

Call right, byte array right, create your on stream, pool it yeah and then do what we said. We would do in the first place. Alright call trade array on complimentary, yeah I mean that's very now.

B

Was about draws like who's, the consumer does API because it seems whatever scenario it is. It seem contrived like what are the scenarios, but you cannot manufacture it. Stream will be very slim, I mean worst case. You create a memory I, don't we say that we want to just delete it and they use memory. Yeah.

M

C

B

Soon is hard to cook yeah. Second,.

C

Question I can why don't we take tight for the right neck of this? Take object. Okay,.

E

One time this type security concern, the caller needs to be aware of what types are writing them and if they want to be fully dynamic, they can call objectivity. So if, let's say you.

I

And I think Dutchman.

D

At the bottom of this talked in the design note, the question can type you know.

J

If they'll use.

I

Those, if you have a clog it if you have an object which is really type a but they're, passing it around as type B, which is the subclass of a then you need to serialize it as type B, not as type a because you could be exposing thing. Additionally,.

H

I

C

H

I

H

An underdog, so you have you, have in your in your code. You have a local who's, compile time who statically determined height is person, but the actual runtime type of it is employee or manager, and maybe it also has properties like salary and stuff on it that you don't want going out across the water deep, if you were, if you're, calling, if you're using the generic type inference and calling any of the right methods that are generic, the T value in this case is going to be person, because that's what is statically known there? We.

C

Are using the type system is a way to scope which properties we see the nice? Yes,.

H

All serializable.

N

H

This is a well understood mechanism, but most serializers use Eve.

E

If I pass null for tight, because my object is no will not work, yes, it well.

B

And you soon, as it is no right yeah, it.

D

Does it in the prototype.

J

You know right, you know, and you ll, basically, okay, what happens if you pass in no type when object.

I

D

I figure yeah yeah. We good enough.

E

Yeah I actually wrote an NBC thing using the little KPIs I think that it working.

B

Was it a good experience or did you hate yourself like.

E

Like for most casein-free nice.

E

C

E

Think it's time out of like oh I, don't stick secrets and then positive things of this either like then the problem is third party types, don't know: what's you realize? Are there types of material is good, so they have no way to.

B

Be fair, though: that's the inverse of the thing you were pushing for a few weeks ago, a months ago when we talked about our guidelines of seeding cows by default, people often extend types purely to add two properties for maintaining state right, yeah.

G

B

G

Just arrived on its own person.

B

You stick some intermediate state, alright and sell. It ends up on the wire and you may not, and because the read is.

E

That it's easy enough selling, based on what you said: you're, not it would always throw.

I

Abstract type and then you've got a a per platform provider type, that's built on top of that, and you don't necessarily want to share like the UNIX, specific properties or the window. Specific properties yeah well.

B

I think I think in crystals defense, though, like if you, if you're aware of what's going on, they can could do the exact same thing about you know. Abusing the time system you could just have you know, suppress civilization, attributes on the properties or whatever it so like. If you design your hierarchy well, think it's not.

M

I

B

I

Yeah people don't do that by default. Yeah I'm.

B

Not saying it's gonna be all I'm saying is that you know, depending on how you structure it? That's just one. Don't.

C

Do it, then, you know also the hierarchy might mean that's what they exactly want to serialize I mean like we basically just have one knob and it's not very flexible, well, properties that are serialized well.

I

I think it's rather than thermal formats, well yeah, yeah, yeah I think it's rather people design their types with with use in mind, but not necessarily with serialization in mind. Lots.

C

Of people give me I'm.

I

Just saying this.

C

This smooth feature doesn't solve all the problems, so I would rather have a feature that solves all the problems and then don't have this. What.

B

Would they look like.

C

E

Makes you think that we dream at all you know if I care do.

C

We all agree, we need a way to sell, some people can select which things to serialize yeah.

E

Great well, that's living.

C

This way, okay, that'd.

E

Be data contract serializer, where you have to make absolutely every property with this is allowed, the other one, the wire I, don't think. That's a security.

H

Perspective, that's the only option this PK here by the way, then this this behavior, where you specify the static type as opposed to the runtime type, is the same behavior used by data contract, serializer adjacent on that XML, stabilizer MV, so normal binding, it's used by a its you'll, identify middle, so I'm, not in Oh II. Don't know I'm good time does by default. When you use the UM when you use these statically typed members or the statically type sterilizer I would.

J

Agree with Christophe, if not.

D

J

Don't think it does I do in the end. I knew it if.

B

He will be okay, but doing basically how you know: protobuf works, whether literally you put an attribute and every single thing you want to serialize. But then you think about the things you see realizing it's just that I. Don't think that design will fly it because people you.

C

Know we won't just focus, it doesn't know the way I will design the future is by default, it's Paco and then the moment you said you want to select which properties you don't realize or utilize. Then there is a feature that is very powerful and lets you do everything that you would want. The problem is, we now have like. We have the series Paco and then we have one feature to select field, that it's not very big symbol.

E

If that did not support using third-party.

H

Types and yes, that would be all that we do all all type like this- is.

E

Just a project.

H

For lab, that's it.

E

We provide you in your own application. That would be fine.

H

E

Problem is the third-party DLL doesn't know that you're going to use JSON serializer, so they can't use jason serializers. Do not write this to the wire edge. Okay,.

C

So let me give you an example of a few that how you not right to the wire you pass a an array of strings that are my good names of properties to nuts seven.

G

C

And be syllabus I didn't say which you know what is the way to control it I'm just saying it will be nice to have a teacher that it lets. You control it in a very flexible, sorry and try us. We tried this.

H

With and VC for frame what can be seen like versions, two through five or whatever, on.

C

H

But it's in court as well. Do people actually use a society.

B

H

B

What so we have basic global registration, where you can say on this type until I know.

E

It have a call site. It's like there's a bug halt over binding, that's typical in web applications. Really you declare your your your object as input. I think we can over by it two things. I didn't expect to be doing the first place, so you say find these five things only yeah, but that I mean it gets for both right really fast. So I'm not so, yes, no! No! What.

C

I'm saying is now we have a teacher that basically adds complexity to the AP is doesn't solve the problem. So if you happen to have a hierarchy where the base type actually, because the properties that you want to serialize and subtype dancin. Well, then this feature works, but as you we just observe, don't design hierarchies are sorry, they don't think about civilization. So sooner or later, we'll run into a case where you know people are civilizing.

E

Control is make sure to make serialization specific types. You should not.

M

Be serializing for one.

E

Time state you should be serializing your serializable state and and then now things will make more sense, but we're not in this meeting going to be able to reshape it. If you have a crystal.

M

E

You you want to remove the type or looking from the type around it from right, right, right, I! Think this: how did that get like.

D

I do have a section that talks about this in the design notes. Maybe we should take this offline. I know they're.

G

D

Last week, for at least about an hour, you know, and.

L

C

You know on the read methods: if you.

D

Have you know the customer employees scenario or person customer or whatever? We only know how to sterilize. You know, that's the static type. You know we don't know, because we don't put the name of the type in the JSON a lot of other serious ladders. Do that we don't and we don't know what sir lies.

D

So it's kind of somewhat symmetric by not supporting it on right, because we can't support it on read um and I think there is an option and I note that in the section that I referred to, that, we could enable this as an opt-in model to basically call get type on every object that you pass in here up front or any any object returned from a collection or from a property to.

E

E

Is it as simple as an overload? It's more.

G

E

Wanted to be a small class, does it will do it on your field? Beyond your sorry, your properties of you know the property, that's a touch person. Does it you realize it as person or customer or is.

F

E

Nested is this whole idea exactly.

C

E

Getting them another right.

C

Well, there's the you know: you pass it off the graph and it has properties for.

H

Non it returns.

C

Tied in every time, do you see realize for this? It's.

H

It's only statically determinate predation that it sort out.

B

Basically, have a collection of person.

C

Up or occurred so disparate any mechanism only works for the roots type and not for the children. The children.

M

Are always based.

C

On the static type of the partner, yeah.

B

I know, but that makes sense, because you know how would you read it back in and you have no way of reasoning. Last.

D

Week, right type language, if.

B

You ever named to give an array of people right and then you have like in a manager and employee that's great, but how to determine when looking at the JSON payload, at which time you wanted to instantiate. This.

E

We've said we're not gonna, add type discriminators, because we're not going to support be able to determine the serialization no.

G

E

That's fine that last part I'm not worried about it's more I'm, just wondering brightly.

B

Jason right into there right, they didn't.

E

B

Oh well, were they sorry.

E

B

I mean like, unless they write out a type name as a property. Yes, Amy.

E

To camera feature camera.

M

E

All right, that's different, yeah sure.

B

Although you can say that's correct my burner.

E

On the infinite, have it like clear things openly? That's another yeah! If you need the dynamic stuff, you can do it right now by writing individually object by object. Instead of doing it one culture, you can even do it it's just this.

M

May be an option, makes.

E

It hard and it intentionally makes a maybe should be an option. You pass mentally the options to why a bull.

D

I would say you know unable polymorphic yeah right. How right you said. Oh and you know we'll call. Basically, the sterilizer would call get object. Okay, since.

E

D

E

Talking about redesigning the features we should table this and yeah.

D

Mvp right, so it's unless we think that these features are for them, VP I would definitely you know, want to defer for now and for later description or for the next release. So.

B

How do we feel about methyl? Do you remember that is fine, though right, everybody's yeah can.

E

You change for extrinsic, get string right to get like okay.

D

Yeah, so let's talk about that, so we talked. We didn't like the write and read methods on these simple ones or turn byte and whatever well really.

M

Just my sense, yeah read you're reading a straight yeah redefine I; normally it would be parsing a string, but other.

E

Games so look out little but yeah.

D

So there was feedback earlier on using to and from I thought on, the the non async methods right. That.

E

Was one suggestion or serialize as the verb instead of right, because right, the reason we would provide on the async versions is because right, you're going some reverb indicates there's a side effect.

E

The problem with right string is: there is a side effect, which is that you're allocating a string, but it's also the primary effect because you're returning it yeah.

G

E

So serialized string or sure.

G

Like who strings string to.

E

String get string series.

G

Weird cuz they're calling.

E

Jason serializer to string and it's like, while you're calling a two string method, that's an antique so so I'm going to go five. So no! No! No because.

H

E

Else and go ahead on if your name like to budget it in two ways: I.

B

Think screams fine on the CBS patterns, when the frame right, where you Mason.

E

Earring into binary.

B

Or to just eliminate the bite over the binary over words.

E

B

E

String black seemed.

B

Fine to me, but I mean.

H

Overseas, we will be want to remove the two by the way it would. Would people even know that to shrink can have like overloads? Don't worry.

B

H

String that arms the most popular idea, hypovolemia.

M

C

String some people may think not that I'm opposed to. Maybe some people would think that it's a string confining the JSON civilizing.

G

Yeah, usually two.

C

String methods, Armani.

E

C

M

Serialized to string.

B

Along I would not name anything seola, given that the type you're on it's your later I.

E

Was just trying to make it so that when you're? Looking at the intellisense you just trying.

B

K

String and you.

E

Be like oh, this is an interim.

H

E

D

You know God something who byte array to string I mean I know you don't eat just sitting like this train, but.

L

It's quite right to write to recognize is.

E

The verb right means is a side.

H

Effect if you're modifying the state of the input object, not just right right to that normally implies that you're taking a stream or something as the destination to right do we're going to acknowledge that you're taking the destination as input yeah.

D

So, what's the consensus to fizzer she's.

J

D

Dubai can't.

E

D

To bite our array.

E

D

E

We don't want to have they with the bite of a one yeah, no I thought it was deleted and tell people use memory, strings, yeah,.

B

This will be just okay.

D

So do we want to delete the one that returns by tourism that.

E

Everything both of the ones that return lighter. Are you, okay, yeah until.

D

We decide what to do. Yeah.

B

Well, no, it's just your memory stream and you'll do the end so.

M

A memory stream can do it for people and.

E

If we get in their feed, we get.

H

Feedback and something we should know that we can always add a tree string, it's just harder to delete things that it is to add them. Now we have like reached ringing two three, so restraint but game. You know read.

E

String just can just be read like it's a it's overload resolution. You don't need them, you don't need the noun and okay sure yeah.

D

Read, stick read, string was there because we had a right string and right string was required because it collided with one of the other ones.

E

So read and read: acing and we so reads would be sequence of bytes span of bytes and string and read. Acing is Mike reader and stream and I knew this when you come to our spot for the first time when you use this thing and you Regan tutorial, you do distance, Eliezer, dot, read thought read about ox, 90 I, think it's strength, payload and then for right. You called to strength yeah.

B

We could also say that the one that made their me, the colored string, if you just go with either from string or bars or something because.

K

B

Is different from the other ones where the other ones just take the thing you're reading bytes from right now and like usually, we have the same thing in the family. We say.

F

This affected your work to.

B

Use and you actually constructed from bytes and then parses, then we pass in this rain or.

K

Decode is when.

E

You're reading everybody well.

B

It depends on the thing, but like notice, like has a max document upload or yeah.

H

B

H

That point well.

B

Don't yeah I guess it's the same here I did then she ate an object graph right so.

D

Okay, so right strain becomes to the string and Region.

B

Ii becomes hoarse and what's it from parsed versus fine from stress I mean price. I mean farcical.

E

The same as parts rightly good, because it's JavaScript, yes parses our text to their value or yeah, so business tax marks or like parts and.

D

I do think that if we don't bite array overload here, um you know people who well, they have to do a lot of extra work to use memory stream and the probably just couldn't be calling the string versions and then decoder encode, which would suck.

E

So why aren't the read ones that take byte array be parts to you, parse bytes again in general we say decode when it's bytes, but these bytes are after.

H

Time strikes yeah, it sucks.

E

So, for that be about myself, oh great, so.

H

E

We have the chart type right now. Those would be sorry so probably the one, the non async reads should all be ours.

E

H

All so, which ones are there.

E

The top two Matsu, and then they have a generic version in the middle and then the physiologic.

K

H

E

Yeah but would have read a sink yep right, a sake party and too strict you group yeah, and when you aren't simple string, I mean.

H

They're already frame.

E

Has either not rounded to screen.

H

E

You some to string or opposites.

H

I might want to go to like a thesaurus now I'd say.

G

H

What's an antenna map, arse I.

H

E

We should I think she delete the really good.

H

It'll leave the read-only sequels, oh yeah, why I don't.

C

Know how you use it? What how do you use it? I call the factory there that we eat I feel free, though I.

E

Think the real question is it's sort of dependent on what we do with the pipe reader. If this is a little bit lower than pie prettier than the read-only sequence, we had to use the pipe reader. It.

G

Wouldn't work you have.

E

To change it and make it work today as it stands, if you read from a pipe you get out of sequence, and then you pass in here and it. How would you know how to consume? I need the whole state things, it doesn't tell you the outfit. These are the it reads anything left. It throws right.

G

E

Here's the problem like when you're reading Jason, which is just unstructured like no that's prefix kind of thing, like there's, no way to know how much your son wants to be trying when you pass and it needs to return like. Can you explain the problem again? This assumes that you pass in the encourages and hey look, trimmed.

B

To the end, the.

E

End ups, if you're reading from a networker reading from a stream, you don't know like what the end is. You can't like read enough up first to pass in the entire sequence with you, I'm gonna do what, when it isn't ends so.

H

If the Jason's heard the request body the adjacent ends, either when you've read the number of bytes specified in the content like Heather or until the end of the request, so imagine your tongue right.

E

And you read the first working and it's a 10k like buffer, you passing for get here, yeah I'm it consumes like some stuff. Does it return false? They say they would come to me.

H

This time to tell you, if you're a bit if you're chunked, like the actual the actual like I, got a data between the chunks wouldn't be in here correct. It.

E

Wouldn't no no, but the problem is when you get a payload back: no, it isn't the whole it isn't just in payload. You pass it in to this. Guy either throws so our research scenario where you have Jason in the middle of something that you don't have either a mime content, delimiter or link time to uploads. For example, you send a hex prefix of the length of the chunk janna payload, so you send the first 4k as like a chomping. Even the second forget the jump then.

H

Why, wouldn't that be a interest rate instead of it read on their sequence, because piperine all.

E

I'm saying in this overload does not work well for that use case at all, because it this can't if, if the color has to know what the entire pill is before passing in it can't work, we've been use pipes so that, like they were spying for my boyhood sure it's for the person that doesn't work and I'm, not sure what that scenario is like what case. Nothing. It's working well, so.

C

One case is I'm reading from a stream and I'm getting very kind chance, because I locate the battery did oh well cold battery still I have a locate another buffer, then I compose them into read. Only secrets. That's I will better premiere have to know that the things you.

E

Read is a full decent. They would know how is a scan agree with your problem. Oh yeah, okay,.

C

E

C

This is a scenario: yes, we don't need sequels, agree and not like she about I.

E

Agree, no, no I agree, I agree there. The question is like you're, not necessarily parsing Jason, semantically, you're you're. Looking for a mind, content, delimiter or something okay,.

K

So it can be standing.

E

For something else, yeah yeah, if you have a protocol on top of it, isn't that tells you what the whole pill it is. It works fine, yeah so long so.

D

E

D

E

Sigma, unless prefix of less you can't pay it. If we're person, Jason field, let's say the worst particular, but we still have to know how much God can see here.

H

If you're reading data in chunks you're probably doing a stick for this reads, anyone yeah, which means pipe read or in stream, is probably what you.

D

Want anyone the correct.

H

Okay, yeah, okay,.

D

The reason why they're on here is because of the the reader and writer supports that natively I mean that's originally wider added here.

C

Neither does it let you do driving it's a first-person about how.

E

The complicated calling back into is the statement.

C

E

So yes, if you went to the problem, I mean again the problem with this one is trying like try read if it returns false, like it, it half allocated a bunch of objects in the middle of a.

G

E

Gc or you like it, so it's a really expensive fuss yeah. So you you want the path to say: you'll get true or throw I think we should know if this method and.

C

Basically, if we discover that whatever designing property yeah, it could be the answer. For example, yeah, okay,.

E

And the same about this fan one or do you? Are you comfortable with the span of you understand? What here is.

H

Usually smaller well in the span is like I have gonna buy.

E

Two right here here is Davis and I can was fine.

H

Like maybe someone pasted it in on the console or yeah.

G

H

Like finally or you have an RPC call or something.

L

Or to spend more, do we need an out concealed.

E

In question right, I, don't know I.

H

Wouldn't think so, because I would think the caller give tickets a callers responsibility to say this, like this entire things, interesting things badly string, I think.

B

H

Just a little up and.

B

There's no trading Gator right yeah. There's no point is.

M

All business, a company or a trailer if.

E

We get usages for I know it starts here and let me know where it ended. We can have that later yeah. But for me this is the I think what most people who are going to call something like this or they expect that they have a full payload with nothing trailing and let's, let's go with the easy scenario first, and we can do the more powerful one if we get customers, you.

B

Think yeah they only wanted to make this not circus in the United States. Otherwise you always end up with constructing effect on the world and Vienna which may destroy can uses a MIDI drum the whole point of it is treated.

E

So yeah I mean the only the only thing that would be for if we had an overall agreed that added them ice consumed. The also discussion on should be vice and continue.

E

We would that one would read the first one and in soon as it hits about once static stated we're just telling how far, and that would be fine but I. Don't I think that the average, the average expectation, then would be that the collar of that would say. Oh well, if you didn't read the whole thing, then throw so we're just going to do that now and if someone wants to partial read later, we can add a wrap.

C

Slice, it yeah because it's easier to add API, so I designed the property lighter, papi and anything without getting to them butcher names. You do not discover that, like the overload, doesn't work or something, and we want.

E

Okay, so now we're down to the read a sinks and our substring are: we are we gonna support? Utf-8 spring girls are byte string the rules in c-sharp?

E

If we ever get it never get it then we'll have the type that happens. Then it'll be ambiguous right between you, two. If a string and not know it'll.

G

Be w8 there to be you, okay,.

E

That made us vulnerable look just in people you a method of doing the same more usable, the read overlooked: things expand, isn't super usable all today.

E

The great stuff thanks gets rid of bull three buildings. That I mean it's great, because that means that there's less surface area that we have that uses bike when I met Chari.

L

No I would push back on get here's the span one, because that's the only way someone has a eukaryote by today that they would deal with it. I, don't know why you're forcing people to encode it to a string or you say so, how.

C

Did they get the binary with exact JSON.

E

C

That I'll not read almighty. Oh.

K

E

Gonna get so much case to show to your sponsor.

E

Yeah, it's only when you have an look outside of the pillar. That tells you let.

E

K

I think if we are looking at this being or some people going through and replacing existing chasing serializer things with this, there's a really good chance, they're down in the bowels of their system somewhere, where they were handed a by ring yeah exactly.

L

H

Strength, but we have, we have string parsing so about that scenarios fulfilled yeah, but I think actually the listen area that Jerry mentioned is is useful, like I call file, dot, read all bikes, I have a bite or a pacifier, your black everything well ice cream. The the vast majority of people I think like don't want to deal with streams. They sink anything. She.

E

Hasn't done that messed up I'm, not having that those two are below they're in it.

H

E

Me that work today you have to 2 / 3 defaulting memory and then do like these with the object. Yeah.

H

So if I cannot.

E

If I'm writing.

H

An application right, like the simplest thing possible for me to do in my application. Startup half is going to be oiled on read acids we're here now: I've deserialized my configuration they.

E

Want to make that super harness that people are terrible.

E

Cuz we don't like smooth and say you gave up my text.

H

Therefore, the.

E

Bomb is there failed.

H

Above is about the interesting.

E

Wow couple: there's a string.

H

Or UT a string, what don't you probably strain? That's.

C

Well, if it takes this pan, you can basically, you can slice slice.

H

I mean I, don't I mean I am talking a slight hop along like I'm completely, but it reminded me so you're right, you're, right, you're right, that's. That is why it is called an abomination. Was it oh.

B

My god, that's like five bucks fun right there, alright, so I think so unique revolutions asking is Jason, so other options going to handle HTM coding is the thing or is that out of school, let's go I. Think it's out of school right, yeah, HTML uncovered yeah. Doesn't.

E

Just like I have what escaping or something some weird and.

H

I'm so so yeah we have a proposal. So by the way we need to schedule the review for the Vixen escaper, but once that review comes online like the Jason serializer often should have an escape where, as a parameter on it,.

B

But it would be JavaScript.

H

String escape another, you know. Yes, yes,.

B

It sort of a thing to you so Nick is claiming that system website ization has a system.

E

That thing is the horrific that you that well like.

N

You've not use that partners. You can.

E

Hear it because one person on the planet I fell down to JavaScript, realize a challenge.

B

Accepted I think you something.

H

Javascript this thing from like asp.net pages.

B

H

This never did HTML encoding.

H

It touched all the scripture incoming.

E

So I thought yeah.

H

But it's it allows you to plug in a custom one via a global registration, at least in full framework. Normally, then, nothing is been eager, yeah I'm, a deep thinker. um You can pass it as an option, but again it would be very much. He.

B

Says it's only an accident.

B

Okay, I understand these.

H

Only need to be there in there well the default. One also escapes things like open and close angle brackets, even though Jason doesn't require them to be escaped because it assumes that you might put it inside HTML and it does that as a defense in depth mechanism. I think, and you could replace that behavior I guess if you wanted to interesting.

E

If you want to plug in some I think.

B

This would knickers is saying, I think that's what he was apparently say: hmmm friend it was the intent here. Sorry yeah.

H

Yeah, the deep the default behavior is: there's a set of characters in addition to the ones of the JSON. The spec requires you to escape that we always escape anyway. We always escape single quote. We always escape.

G

H

Open brace, close brace, we always escape anything above the asking range we always escape, plus they always escape back to there's. There's a tuesdays.

K

With someone gave.

H

A feature request: who only do the minimum amount of escaping writing? Yes- and you can, you can absolutely do that by if we found Jason serializer options that let you take in your own escape or interface abstract base class, whatever sure blog done, yeah or I mean.

E

Probably it would be an option on Jason around the Jason writer options, which is the field of Jason serialization, but yeah yeah, and you have a question about this thing. Miata class is there knows the anywhere well, every method, complete sorrows, yeah yeah I'm wondering if there are any force allocations, because there's because this thing of this people.

D

Jason serializer optional has a bunch of cash state, but there might be a feature in the future like if you want to have some overflow properties returned at the end of all or write or read method. You know, then there might be an extra argument on these, but yeah. Currently, there's no other state. It's a clean involved. You.

E

Catch all the type information and stuff like lovely in the static somewhere and.

D

It's sorta statically. um If he used a seer, sterilizer options, dot add attribute, then the cash moves to the instance of the options class.

D

We gotta think of that telling you what to rewrite.

M

D

But maybe we should talk about that in a second, after we're done with this here are or do you are you purple? Are you thinking that we might need to make this in some space for some reason,.

F

D

B

L

You have a Jason converter.

D

Class which is static, and then they have the Jason sterilizer class, which is instance and allows you to do some state related stuff with adding you know, converters and, and things like that, yeah.

E

We pull our today in every see.

C

Okay, one thing: we should be careful if it's burning the best thing. If we ever think we're gonna have a died that you instantiate and you can do that. You know converters and the Union. What will the time be called.

B

Well, not just the tribe, also the methods on the egg. If you want to make the simple type, which is what Jason does that didn't convert, that naming convention will very quickly fall on the face? No because no like. Well, all the good names are not taken by static methods. You know it's the same signature, so, oh that's because it's basically there's no explicit, that's right, it's all implicit! So that doesn't work. So then the only other option is to have a different type, which now goes back to this old argument of like.

E

B

Said take people to be honest, though, like I, you should look in this I. Don't think we need that. Give like because give you the current design, accommodates both global state as well as instant state, by just using it as like using basic you Jason. So that's all for the option here, which seems you, okay,.

D

It does not have methods state, so that's the thing that I kind of talked about like if you do a read on a complex tree and you have some overflow properties, for example, you know, like properties are doing exist on a type, but the exist, my JSON. We have to figure out where to put those and there's like two ways, I think to do it.

D

One is you stick them on the object and you and then you know you have to say hey this field is used to store the overflow properties, for example, Jason deck supports that mode or you return them with a method and I. Don't have an argument. We'd have to add another argument to the end or the third option. I guess is to have an instance of the serializer and put it on some properties to say hey. These are your overflow properties, for you know all types or something like that.

D

Well, so I think there is some pieces that you might want to have for a call like. Maybe you want to handle it some air handling, and you don't want to put that on the options class, because you only want it for this, that the options class is intended to be immutable and shared, because it has all the caches on it. Air.

E

Howling is interesting, someone's going to come up so.

B

What happens, then? You call add, attribute after I called the method already.

D

What happens if you call an attribute, did.

B

You listen validate the cash afterwards.

D

No I haven't documented as and once you start serialize and deserialize, and you can't have to start changing. You can't add attributes so.

B

You're, just all basically gonna do that yeah.

D

B

Corta type doesn't.

D

Do that right now, but that's the proposed semantics is to make that immutable.

B

It's basically implicit freeze upon first serve as a facilitation. I think that's reasonable. Okay,.

D

I mean seems like we're kind of talk about the next section, so if we can kind of close this out, I think the only thing unknown for me right now is the the right method that returns byte array, whether we want that or not. If we do, what do we want to call it? Let's.

E

Wait for people to ask for it yeah so.

B

Which one do we delete the.

E

B

Returning right, yeah, that's I mean.

D

Then also we deleted the read-only sequence of versions.

D

Okay, um can we move on then to the options us.

F

B

Well, it's not so much that looks like I can only think a second. Let me know how.

E

To do overloads now with um default members default parameter values. Yes, yeah yeah. You.

B

Were in a hole, you just want to know whether we.

E

Add the per call error handling yes,.

B

He's out of argument yeah, so the way this works is you have a method that has default. If you have two in the FG I have another parameter. You create another overload, the previous want to remove all default values and on the new one we had all the default Vegas packing.

G

B

Then this way that it always binds to do I think one interesting.

J

B

Pretty straightforward, the only thing you can't do is realistically. Versioning is, if you have multiple different kinds of overloads, where the whole like pattern is different. That's when things you do like itself, but if you just have like an ever-growing list of options, that's pretty straightforward.

D

Okay, the options class. um We kind of got started on this before so I'm, just kidding I, unless you want to read this I'm just gonna skip over this. It's talking about the same stuff. We talked about before.

B

D

Just moved to the Eric and I'll kind of explain what changed since last time. Okay, since last time there was a I, don't know stack size or something like that that was removed because it was added, or it's going to be added to the reader and writer options.

D

um The ball code at a time we last time that we talked about this- were these three properties in the middle. These case insensitive and skip properties before they're all something else, and they had default values that we didn't like so now, I rename these three and they all have default billions of false based upon what we thought the default semantics should be, um and then the other stuff is the same.

D

So here's kind of the new names I came up with based on our discussion last time. I think having a common default value for Bulls is is a good thing, so I renamed them appropriately to make them false.

G

So skipping null values in your you're only referring to skipping no values on properties and not items and arrays right right.

D

So, and also not yeah, then that's also probably gonna have to be settings for dictionaries like for the keys, sensitive thing as well. You know, but I, do it prefix that with property name but I do not prefix to skip with skip null property bill. You want to read, but maybe.

J

I should so Steve if.

E

They're, applying only to when the property value is null, should they be skipped no property instead of skip no value. That would take the array out.

M

D

Yes, yes, that sounds reasonable. That's.

G

That's feedback I've had from null value handling and Jason Don net, where people says I set this to ignore null values, but I still get no values and my in my arrays, what's going on? Okay, thank you. Color yep,.

E

If no value on reading skip no value on right or not skip no property, I mean property.

D

And as I mentioned last time, I just have these three prophecies here, probably be several more anything, that's a simple inu, marble or integer, or something like that. We would probably just put it here. Alma, it's done necessarily gonna have all the settings. You might have to use this attribute mechanism, but this will probably grow it to be a dozen different properties. Here we.

B

Would add so? What did you just say? You want to add one every name and these two are being renamed.

E

Value is being replaced with property; okay, they resolve an ambiguity with race and with values, V, and then it's that future options may exist or may be added, as they yeah.

D

The reason why I didn't have the property name on these skipped no billion read because it's just exact same name that exists on the property attribute right, so we kind of redundant. You know on the property attribute, maybe to put the property name, but I think the names can be different. So it's not yeah.

F

Let's keep my property only it's keeping my property right.

E

Why is the Papa Versailles not nullable,.

D

um Because I guess it has a default value of minus one. Yeah.

E

Something I think just making goals what your yeah.

H

E

That's what good.

D

E

D

What a Stig, what's the is there a previous you know like a reference implementation of this that uses Noland and I should look at ways.

E

Yes, it's more about default values. Why.

H

Not just make it 16 K or that, like we can change the value they Hydra versions.

F

You're brave yeah: it's not a cost to property. Sure.

F

With deficit has been.

E

B

E

Making it be nullable is good because that means that default well, I guess this is a class, so the default is null but and so nevermind. If it was a structure making it knowable would be good because the default of T would be all the defaults well default. 0 is the class good, minus 1, I guess: B set minus 1 again.

B

0 is invalid right.

E

No, no so nullable has the good samaritan ethics of it. As an obvious. How do I return it to the default to suicide to NOLA yeah? Let's.

D

Try to hide this 16k, you know.

E

D

Gonna make an l1 yeah Christoph.

E

Nodded at nullable so yeah, let's just make it know about emails phone since it said.

C

Class no libelous the dangerous, an exam or something like this. It makes this track larger. If, but here it doesn't matter.

H

We don't actually have to make the class or struck larger to do this, because we could always regenerate that up in each idea.

A

K

Can internally store.

H

Negative one, you know you it's property, it's a method, so you can do every volunteer. So.

C

Kind of a high level guideline question: we've: had many of these option classes grab to the review and we go back and forth between immutable immutable. And what do you do when somebody who thinks they were? You know after you passed it and so on and so on? I have to say I like the design of it's mutable, and if you wrote some really wacky program that changes the options while the stuff is surrounding you too bad. You should yourself eat the food, yeah I think.

M

That we would be our genetic in.

C

The mineral rights I.

E

M

That the the notion of like the case-insensitive property.

E

Names of, if you, if you toggled, that in the middle of while it's running I kind of frankly, don't care what it does, but the notion of you, you add an attribute to change how the serialization model would be that one needs to steal it. That one needs to close it, something it's modification, because it it has data security. When you may say it needs to.

C

Come to the Miss evaluation that.

E

Because this gets passed into all of the right methods, the right method, one set an internal rule of unclosed now and then, when you call that attribute it throws, you can't modify me after I've been using realism. Would.

H

It unopen itself after the operation complete, doesn't that's okay,.

E

So the problem was that in this.

M

Particular hit so he I.

E

Mean it could, but it's he would then need to invalidate the cache that this attribute.

M

Model is he's using the attribute model as a or this object as a cache for the attribute model and what it was on. But I'm.

C

Still are you proposing that we make the options if you're, basically mutable, option classes everything.

B

We need different kinds of options right, so the there's this kind of option, which is like process by the way. This is just part, a matter of options. You start your process, you forget the options you passed and you just have a convenient way to pass in the fact. One of videos right. The Paula me is that this object also um is saying yeah and then you're supposed to catch that yourself, that you avoid expensive operations and I.

B

Think in this case the question is: if you were supposed to cash, it all like likely to shoot yourself in the foot at that point, I think feasibility or immutability is I, think something we should think about, because we are promoting a penny. The thing about that you will hang yourself with what what kind of state does this actually store? One time, I think it's just a casual play. Revlimid data yeah.

D

It caches meta data on on every type of Faerie lies or neither light yes and then every property, cary, IL, yeah IL, would be stored on here. If we start differing um based upon these options, are we you know if we do cogent, for example- and I mentioned that above, but if we use the settings on here to generate some code initially and in theory, this class would probably you'd want to be immutable as well from the outset. Just to your code, doesn't you know raise any.

H

That, if I, if I'm, calling serialized jason serialize, word alright and I pass in new jason serializer options as a last parameter of every single call, you're going to reco chen every single time. Well,.

D

I think that's not true. We're not, of course gonna. Do that and right now the code only only kind of locks down you call that attribute, but it's a discussion. You know we're having on what we want to do for how you know. How is this thing expected to be shared if we want to assure it across users in a multi-threaded, you know case well, then it's gonna break right.

E

Three model is kind of weird. The options is, that's that's what.

H

She's kind of that's why it was a little confused right, because if you, if you knew up a brand new Jason serializer options and then call right again passing the new options, it sounds like you're reusing the existing code code. So the coach Jones, not the instructor or the store, is not a static static static. Until you call her.

E

Actually I think all right and it moves to the options. Okay, once you change any of these defaults, it would then I mean I'd. Okay,.

D

Right now, the implementation in- and this is open for debate, because all of the questions you're asking are ones I asked myself, yeah and I implemented only when you call an to attribute at the cache move, you can actually set these.

D

These default values options and these other three properties, all you want and the code will say: hey did you set it on the attribute because you can set well, not not the reader/writer options that did you set these other three properties and as an attribute somewhere, if you did I'm gonna use those if you didn't I'm, gonna fall back and use the Billie's here and and write analysis, we're not doing any kind of code, gen or ILO mentoring. That's based upon these three properties or the reader writer options that you know it works today.

D

Maybe it won't work in the future or it.

C

Won't work in multi-threading cases if it's a bit weird two stars stating of caesium, it seems like we like in Jason that there's the converter there's the serializer and then there are some options and I think it actually is there. I am wearing and you're kind of entity model. If you, if you will it.

I

Almost seems like so it sounds like right now: we've got options which contains state and it should be the inverse. You should have stayed.

J

Which contains the option getter past.

I

J

E

H

E

Was hidden there's any option on your.

K

Key to it needs to be frozen once it's ever been used, but.

C

Then the question is so: you know like I know, some people are into this freezing I'm kind of like I, think options types need to be beautiful, otherwise they almost defeat the purpose like it's so difficult to pass. On the you know. As the options grow you want to set properties, you can get.

G

C

And longer constructors.

D

When I grants many Alex yeah.

C

Visibility, my opinion is kind of like in guidelines. I would say it's considered like if you care, consider making incredible if you don't I'm completely fine with, like you know, people change.

E

Plus this tactics I mean too bad exceptions.

C

Or undefined state I don't care like it's an option to.

E

Make it safer and safer I mean our. You know our approach on it. You know I say on this one. The the problem is because you're changing with the attributes. What data does and doesn't get see realized that one changing midstream has little security application so that one we would say that the.

H

Security review, we would say.

E

This has to freeze yeah because you don't want a bad sharing across threads or a bad patch reuse.

K

Or something there's.

E

Everywhere to now introduce a security bug we want we want what gets you realized to be very deterministic, but otherwise that, if you change in the middle- and you say no like skip no value on me, changes to true like add attribute, but how this whole discussion even but actually was being a source of like modification and to me it seems, like the run, a fashion where the attribute is kind of input to the actual underlying policy. You don't call a patch of you and you've had like actual pieces.

E

Like you know the attribute type, you change the policy and attribute artist ampere to that policy, and it let's look at what time should be coming in here. Yeah.

C

E

Annotations after you.

C

Scroll down more, you.

E

See like there's, isn't probably attribute yeah what.

C

Do they like to if.

H

I call and adjust the exam to Butte I, don't arch some of the attributes, things like control, how this name gets serialized across the wire like for.

D

Me I'll talk about this again and I and I have a section or you in here talking about it.

D

But basically the thing is we support design-time attributes, you know almost aerolizer zoo and the more you can push in my opinion to design-time attributes the better in the sense of you know, be able to to help with caching to make sure your class is always serialized properly and youth realize who's using your type that sort of thing. So then the question is well: how do I change some stuff or override some of this information at runtime?

D

Maybe I, don't own the poco types or they're on another assembly and they're shared by 20, different sterilizers, and you know I can't touch them that sort of thing. So then you need a runtime light to do the exact same thing, and so, instead of adding another API up to the side, I elected here just to say you know what just add the attributes at one time and as he to work as my mental model. How doesn't you know- and it's not as conventional is other ways but without duplicating you know so.

C

So I was looking at this optional feature: API ability to authorize detailed, behavior and- and this issue with the attributes and the issue that we discussed before, like which type doing the instantiate and whatnot, don't worry, I thought and I actually implemented one serializer. It was another JSON, but binary theory and I thought about this thing and I imagined that this is the way I would design it.

C

You have an option class and you can actually inherit from it, and it has a virtual method that says you know, give me a type four or something and then you can override it and you can provide your own type and same with many of the other things that are controlled with you know, attributes and I think like we would have a type that works, the way it works on pakka objects and then, if you want to show you want control, there are a bunch of callbacks on this time.

C

Basically let you control, so you basically is saying give me the give.

B

Me the time you want me to use for this deodorization see.

H

How at that point, how does Jason serializer options not become the this parameter in all the static methods we've been created?

H

Well, you move it to the front, call it this and then say: hey now, Jason serializer is longing static. Yeah like if.

C

You want to change a behavior.

C

But I'm saying, like you know, there would be one more than one way to tweak all the job, basically virtual combats that are being called by default. They do something and you can override it, because now it seems like we have the time you can provide JSON class materializer or we have attributes that you can apply and maybe some other options that are boolean properties. It would be nice if there was a very flexible mechanism and it always works the same we basically describe this is the default behavior of our JSON serializer.

C

If you don't like it inherits from it as you propose in and overwrite something through a method that does something else.

B

But we catch a know that stuff, though DCO.

M

B

E

You have any example of an I cut, my battery provider. That's a framework type right yeah, that's a pretty good show about the loop. Oh.

H

Yeah, you can touch the operator for them yeah.

H

D

J

D

A property um so.

E

Like so the call this, if you want to apply a natural to a property, you would do type of blah get property yes and they're passed new, just inappropriate yeah that this is in the same vein as EF leg. Modeling wait were you model your hose yeah up its objects, but, and they have absolutely API for saying these properties these like attributes, these whole things, it's kind of stat the same space right.

E

This is a bit of it because they have kind of a domain-specific API over reflection. So you don't have to go this low, you're kind of saying things like for this property. I want this to be a Auto ID or this to be. You know something else. This feels very low-level. Maybe it's a fine building block but I have this aversion to add a runtime attributes versus a callback, I kind of Crillon. The things we're here, you're, given control or really so the callback would take a property info as a parameter.

E

I, don't know if you would become Paraguay's, although.

D

This can be cached very efficiently, much more so than any call better I. Think I mean we can catch the result of the callback, but if there's custom code in that callback, that's varied. You know that change is based upon other information. You would also have to say that callback, whether the value can be cached well.

H

It doesn't the attribute have that same issue right now. It does yeah I should right, no.

E

No, it doesn't. What can you write arbitrary code and that's I, guess they're only a fixed adapt they sold for attributes. Do you support a fixed set, or can you like write your own? You.

J

Can write your own attribute yeah? Doesn't that run arbitrary code? No.

D

Because the the attribute itself.

D

I mean the attribute itself, isn't gonna change that the instance isn't gonna change, no.

E

So what the call you call in the attribute to do stuff? Isn't that, like it was aesthetic data right, I mean you know, I.

D

um I mean basically that the attributes are gonna, be aesthetic properties and they're not expected to randomly. You know, change behavior, absolutely that's the same! Well,.

H

So, as a concrete example, I mean not because.

D

A callback is completely different than some had some design time attribute or how you play.

E

To run, how do you make a cut match of you affect behavior that that you hadn't that that you haven't planned for it? You don't have a thing to call in to you. You.

C

Can have conservative answer this year, Aakansha gotcha yeah of something that's.

E

If you can pass, those four is fine, but if I want to add my own thing to serialize snake case, how do you catch that if I write our water closer, we.

D

Could talk about that? There's a there's an extensibility model, explicit explicitly for camel casing um or casing properties that you would add a new attribute. So.

C

I don't understand: what's the you made the performance argument that something can become stupid with, but not with callbacks with convex, you don't need to crash anything it all. Just you know you return like hey I, don't like the property name who I want you to symbolize it as bar? That's it what the pair is right, I mean no.

D

J

I mean make it there.

C

Is a myth called, would call this diversion. Oh come on you're.

E

Acting out of pre can these poor things are saying instead, instead of doing those poor things cause method, it said it's incomplete of.

H

Those two Steve you've started talking, but you fade it out. Yeah.

D

Well, I, quit I mean we were over talking for a little bit. Yeah good I mean you put a virtual method on here that you can overwrite, which I don't I'm, not necessarily against I mean it's just by doing that, you can read other other values on here, for example IIE. When you have an attribute class, you don't get passed in the options class. You know what I mean you, don't you don't know?

D

What's out, there is very simple by design you're gonna read, you know have bulls and in sand whatever it have with that your function will be in, and then your implementation of your attribute has a well-defined method that we call to do something like you know, give me the the snake case value of your property. Then we can cash that string coming back on instead of having to call the method every time, for example,.

C

Yeah but I'm going back to the main motivation for this design. Every single C realizes that I'd seen my career. It starts simple and that people started. You know demanding more and more knobs and then all should attributes work for this one, but it don't work for this other thing, oh, you are in the care that performs Arco. Second of the optional features. Api is basically a callback like type because attributes don't scale to class materializes and like over time.

C

These things, just don't scare in my opinion, I know, and we end up with very complicated or am I supposed simple civilized, a time that you inherit overnight, three methods. If you want to control what times get created, our properties are being civilized. You know what casein.

H

What not game! So in your in your scenario, it sounds like you want the serializer itself to control things like camel casing, as opposed to the object model to control. Doubt I understand that.

C

Hey I'm gonna read from the object some attribute and control it via an attribute. It's totally extensible because.

E

This is basically parcel, so we have a bunch of hard-coded button options right and properties like camel canceling and property name and that stuff, and then we have an imperative way to describe where to put those options on our runtime. You want to do anything else.

E

You want to customize snake AIDS yeah, someone hats where cousin could have run somewhere so either becomes an attribute that runs custom code or it becomes a poor tool on some class or interface like justin has I'm using converters where you can write arbitrary code to read and write your types, yeah I think this is lean towards that we're at rebuke and of give you a declarative way to do things and built I'm friendly I'm stuff.

E

But if you want to constrain code to control this type for this property, you to have a things that you do.

D

The main job of the attributes is to create a converter yeah some converters. The information from them can be cached right.

E

In the end, exactly the the ones that the one that you're aware of can be cached and the.

I

Big benefit to this approach, is you don't have to go and add attributes to every type that you want to support to control, how it's serialized? You can just support it without the end-user having to take in dependency on Jason net.

C

Xml serializable.

I

Just both approaches alone, yeah.

C

You add an attribute here and the system pretends that attribute is applied to the type. The other one is just a virtual method and you I gotta say do exactly what the attribute would cause the system to do. If it was there yeah.

E

C

E

Like the UK is not very friendly right, like you have to do reflection to find it to find the while the other model to find the thing you want and then, like a plan tree to it, you can imagine a way to using also.

C

Imagine that I have a cross-cutting thing that I want to do. For example, I. You know, I wants to lowercase all properties, I, don't care what what they are well now, I have to like a blind thousand attributes to all my object model because they have.

B

C

That should be for that they apply to everything. I'm, really thinking right now, like.

E

What were you is.

B

Global attribute, what does it mean everything, basically any type as all that she gives honor plus the one? Yes, okay,.

E

B

Are links Damon.

E

You want to write a filter that says: hey I, want to see these types and then I want to do where and their plight is basically to use an alternative. Some you.

B

Could imagine like something that you know Mitch's reflection context like you're, just passing the reflection context? Yes, this thing should use right now. Reflection context in itself would be not very convenient right. So if you look at how math v2 works, you basically have a builder where you can say that you know blah blah blah. You know from types in assembly and.

G

They say it's not export.

B

Then you just call a method: it will do whatever it takes to Marxism as an as an export, because it's the same a just have a bunch of methods that say: realizable mark is not realizable. You want that.

E

That is over reflection, I.

B

Think it depends on what you want, but, like you can either say you have a call back by semester, but you basically write your policy fini.

E

Both anyway, that.

B

Bed is not very declarative, which has the downside you, basically all the problems. You see what it does. Oh I.

C

Want to do the following: I will do the parrot in flexible, come back mechanism and then people would say geez, it's so inconvenient. I would want this attribute to just be applied when you add, and then we are not so basically now we kind.

L

C

Done in the reverse, we added the special cases and the generic one is not provided. I would provide the generic one and then based on people's feedback, what they want to do and what are the signatures of their products?

C

You know I'm about to serialize the property I mean.

D

I just want to say one thing about if we do that, which I think some of that we want to do anyway, yes, but a lot of these properties can be applied for attribute I mean sorry. um These attribute can apply for property. So at some point, then you know we need to call a method for every single property to say: hey. You want case sensitive or case insensitive for in an individual property. Assuming we want us dead, etre per property level, not a type.

D

The current model is, you know it can fall back to the type um you know, because it has a declarative information on it and can cache that so they'll be very chatty, at least until you warmed up it's just something. To think about can do property even window type level. Then you control that yeah I almost.

E

Always assuming.

D

Yeah property in that scenario, well,.

C

You need to do this attribute check.

E

On the property, but you don't call custom code, you generate the code that, but if you have a camelcase attribute, you can just generate code up front that would camelcase those properties, because you knew I had a time that their account case. You'd have to do things like steal that attribute yeah.

B

But I mean like you could do the same thing of Club. X right I mean I. Don't think we need to provide the guarantee that says that the cleric runs every single time. You see. Oh, that's the property. You can just say it once your policy is static. So if you did you base it on the date of the week or something like screw, you I just I just generated a mid-face curry and then you catch the same level. Right I recommend.

D

Take it take a look at the Jason property attribute from Jason net. They have the same name and look at those properties to see what they could all move to. The class.

G

There's some things.

D

Like property names, you know, that's probably only belonged to a property single property, but a lot of the other ones. You know you can either specify the type or the property if we want to remove some functionality and only support the type you know its limits. I think some scenarios, yeah I.

B

Think the other thing that's asked for this, for the signatures. I would not give you the object. Instance I would just give you the property and for the method info. So you don't get to berries Iceland on the video, because.

H

You don't have the ability to look at the object because you're being cached yeah.

B

H

B

E

H

And just wondering like what.

E

That what that destroy? What can you do in that kid? Well,.

B

I mean I mean in your house, should be based in the tie. Shape I mean what else would you base it on? So.

H

Some people have policy based on, should I be allowed to serialize this, based on, like the current user yeah.

F

H

That's like there's.

D

A feature here that I don't have, which is the ability that I don't have yet we talked about before it's the whole I want to serialize everything myself yeah I want to provide. If then logic, we need that I don't have it. That's the alt and fallback to all this attributes up in whatever, like hey here's thousand lines of code, I need to serialize. My class basically gonna be calling reader writer manually in a lot of cases, but you you can still do whatever you. Alternately want good, but the.

J

2% case maybe the and object. Oh you.

H

D

H

J

H

Is the object if.

D

You have an object model or a tree with you know, 50 classes and one of them don't serialize properly because of something. Maybe they got a collection that has to mix of integers and strings or.

J

Some polynomial for today.

D

Then you still want to use our sterilizer for those other 48 types, and then you write your own serializer that hooks them through to this at runtime to serialize your other two types manually, or maybe you consider like part of your type. If you only have one property and will handle other properties, I mean.

B

Let me just say screw that like if you want a very based on user, for example, at that point, you need to control the sterilizer, because you have to give a CD in your own. Caching, you can just say for the current user: I have another cache reflection, I made and like my whatever sale as its instantiated with the user yeah. So it's immutable over there, but I never have to look at the actual instances to determine in.

H

The scenario like a by the way is not at all good practice. The Talmud.

B

Saying is, you can see Breanna I.

E

B

Want to do this, you can a deep fried.

E

So you mentioned that that attribute is the same name I, just none that isn't that problem money. Why would it be I.

D

Didn't think about it um at the time, but it could be this. That's something to talk about our disease.

H

um You mean the Jason properly named attribute that ones specifically Jason.

D

Property attribute is also found.

E

Some more from these them they're.

H

E

Different namespaces, so you.

H

Could always have.

E

H

A that, well, you could also do out using using cool Jason property name attribute, equals.

D

I I purposely did not try to pick that same name by the way. I just came out that way so which.

B

Probably means it's a globally: it's.

E

A good name, but you know every single person that uses 33 all four of them: yeah: okay,.

B

But let's go second, so let's say we pick a different set of attributes from Jason on that right now you convert your co-pays know what edit every single file? It's not going to be pretty so I think the only thing we could do either eat they decide you care about that. Migration has to be smoother and maybe just say even that this layer just cares about reflection, but mister, just care about names. We couldn't actually just honor that that should be a because it's the same name.

B

You can just say what it will make me cook this or equal to that, and then you just go with it: hey James.

H

What, if you support the new attribute.

E

H

Would be something that I think this would make herself happy too. If you have the Jason serializer itself have a bunch of virtual methods. You can have a compatibility pack which sits on talk about and says I understand, all of the old attributes as well yeah, it's a set that we should figure that can either do.

E

Nice, it yeah, that's not bad thing. I do.

D

Have a section on in the design notes that they kind of talk about that as well, not necessarily gates and dotnet attributes, but reusing some of the you know the ones from system serialization, I guess what yeah I think that is. The compact pack is a good idea.

E

If you were, if you run bunch of code, there are right attributes I, you don't know, because you don't have the actual objects yeah. You don't have that idea. You couldn't you couldn't like right back lifted. It I got a call back while well, can you autograph this ailing a plant, no I think so.

H

I have see if I have a random related question. You're right, do you serialize read-only properties on.

D

By default right now, it does yes, okay, but you.

H

Don't do serializing and.

D

I think you might actually get an exception, because I didn't write that ten lines of code to handle that yet okay, yeah so.

B

But we believe that's the right thing: you're not going to do something crazy, like finding the backing field and setting that right. No.

C

But you see this is what so we had some email exchanges I would not use this type. Okay, you say at this time. What is this time this serializing? Do we need to make changes to.

F

C

Me to use it, it would need to be able to serialize and deserialize time of the graphs that are, for example, immutable and have internal properties.

C

The way I would do it is through signature on T, like this callback, where I put the code that composes the graph in my assembly with the type that have internal fields. Therefore, I can just call the field. Yes, I realize that just calls me and says you know this sounds a lot like.

D

And I think we're gonna have that with this feature that I and that you can do whatever you want our prototype basis.

D

Yeah, it doesn't exist that it's, the old Ito write your own, you know serialize or do sir lies or method for a time. um You know you basically specify converter for a type and we are gonna have a you know. Are we doing the right method that we call and we'd give you everything that we know and yeah.

C

So this goes back to the virtual methods like I. You imagine that all these features would basically just be the set of virtual method. I wonder.

G

C

Create my own subtype of the serializer in the assembly with with the mother types.

E

Like a visitor pattern, where there's two passes there's the first pass, which is the actually policy walk, you want to get the home to graph and you return the turnout review. Somebody fault. The default invitation does like recession to find attributes. B people are right and add more, you can add your or whatever you want to add there. So there was once per type and its cash aggressively and then the second. The second pass is for the actual league reading and reading navigation.

C

So you can just remove attributes.

E

From the call equation.

C

And the recurring the strings and yes and yeah do logically yeah.

H

C

H

Or we call for table this, no.

E

I wonder if we leave it for now and then we remove the API is in the nice release, and let me do this thing. Is that so.

B

Keep in mind or like how would use is not a OT. Is there to guilty.

E

Would not well, you can run that code, hopefully yeah, so.

C

So exactly the future that I decide. It's also solves the IOT problem, which is basically the design time. You create the subtype of this type, and it doesn't do any reflection that you only.

E

Metadata get it a new type system, we get type info, but but it's it's profession only Noah, basically I think.

B

I mean given the binormal assembly bless it or you could basically use reflection. Api is I, have it working full-time, the only thing yeah, so the only thing is why I'm asking is like so like. If you look about policy, we have to make sure that you can at least in principle image code that does not require runtime like runtime state right. Otherwise you don't have this indirection literally and every single side. I think.

E

You want the policy water be like wants for type right, but you can still overwrite everything. Calling your girls for property for field for.

H

Whatever what what a simple version of that Walker look like maybe the default one just looks at public properties, but yours looks of internal properties as well. Yeah yeah, so.

B

The only problem of that kind of thing is that if you do caching per type it's fine but they're built I'm like like we said like all at runtime, we can just say the state associated with the option. I'd say: oh, it's associated with the serial anymore, like you can do this a good time like I mean how would I do that? You.

G

Need so it can.

B

Only it can only tight tight. You know steady to generate a bunch of civilization code. If that is true for the entirety of the application.

C

You just need my dick has come to have custom code, but does the serialization deserialization its equivalent to me manually writing you know a loop using the reader writer right and then setting properties on the type that I know what it is, but what what I need to catch if I'm in the situation, I don't actually need any country at this point, my coldest as efficient as it gets and now I'm using the serial either, basically as a way to handle it's the state machine. That knows where it is and tells me hey. There.

D

Is some information you might want to catch? For example, let's say you have a property name that needs to be except on. Might you know the cash that the.

E

First, pass can can cash, they don't see to be used by the second pass. Yeah.

C

I would have to do it. Basically, in my code, yeah yeah yeah, the.

B

Other thing is like, if you literally like, if you actually register a callback that says you know, handle civilization, initialization for type T, that's.

E

One you basically a callback though it could be like a statically declared thing well,.

B

It does matter what the callback or not all I'm saying is that if that's what you do, we have to do three anti object graph. That's a lot of work. I. Think most people won't do that. All.

E

The time it would work, but what won't Jenna entire thing, what.

H

Part is a lot of.

B

Work, but if I literally have to make in order to make crystal scenario, work right very basically well nobody's are read-only, because everything is into own stage, all right, so I can just say: okay, I, you know give me a give me a call back that says this civilized object. You give me basically the data yes stealers object. You give me the object and right under.

J

G

B

Can I can now do Chris of scenario? It's just that it's. If I have like a hundred types, it's not going to be pretty on my it straight all right, yeah, at which point the question is: what would we do a sale as I provide you things well,.

H

Working, although the series a coordinator at that point so for.

B

H

You would don't take a Jason writer as a parameter. You would probably take like some internal some. Some internal type used by the Jason serializer, say oh by the way like I, also know, know how to write out tianyu and being.

E

That's a key because you have to come back out into their credit to serialize. Think that by that you may want to like drop it right. Don't you control your time and then you like a person that doubles on your type, typical right, T and then walk into the bigger new funds? Do you like the little thing right.

B

That Goods did yeah yeah but yeah, so I'm thinking some sort of item I, don't take case in mind. Anything more tired.

H

Like you would you would take something akin to but it'll be not quite the case and sterilizer at that point? Yes, okay,.

D

So what I'm, what I'm kind of hearing is? Is you know the this feature that I talked about with the class material? Are serializer I mean I need to get that like fleshed out I? Think for us to be able to rationalize turning API? Do we need those things for.

E

Now, in default, we recommend and reflection they.

B

Say these things you mean the.

E

Option for the class material that you know it's even says: you're all policy maker just come later. We.

H

D

Yeah, that's why it's optional and it's also dependent upon um you know a runtime way to ask see if replimat is available or not.

E

And then oh sure,.

D

E

Had that thing, those was that oven, yeah.

H

E

It available and.

H

Is it good if dynamic code of three oh, we we.

E

Did understand.

H

B

E

In a bad way that.

D

You don't want to have dynamic code, maybe you have one instance of one object and one property to serialize. You know I mean that's there, but I don't know if you would run the Jason serializer over.

H

That what I exaggerated! What.

D

Other features there and there's a good way to determine that yeah I'll remove the other features not available for.

C

The source portable package- it's not you're right so.

D

Lesbian, if deaf um and maybe that that whatever you give to fun, you can change it manually. If you want well.

B

It could use reflection to discover those.

D

If you had to the default, I tried to do a rep lament and then I failed. I would catch that you know specific exception and then flip it over to standard reflection. I did have that code and they're really as part of type and I just took it off. So we could do something like that. If you really want to so.

E

The you know a long time ago about setting fields without I recommend. Yes, did that ever go anywhere? No, but it could write it could yeah. Then you wouldn't even need this thing anymore. Abe's.

D

Work, it's just a standard reflection of soul, incredibly slow, I think like oh, that interaction.

H

Alone system reflection, great okay, I.

D

Have the note to remove this and and when we can add it back, I guess if we need me to.

C

So you see this would be one of my robots. Yes,.

H

And no I'm, not it sent.

C

H

Name, source destination, so speaking of fields are Steve, do you also support fields or just properties, properties, just properties, I think maybe once.

F

B

Given the public things are so lightweight, I have no problem saying you have to put it against that thing. I'm. Also fine I'm saying if this field is public and get said, the fields public and kids gets that, like you can also anywhere James. Are you sold at all.

H

Okay, yeah Oh, have you ever have you heard from customers that they're very vocal about properties versus fields versus whatever? Do they tenderly, not care.

G

um I don't hear about it just because Jason Bohn it has always serialize and deserialize everything. So it's it's neither has never been an issue which is come up so I.

C

I will, after this meeting or maybe tomorrow, I will send two callbacks metal to callback methods. That I think would solve the problem we're now in fantastica. We could actually use this that, if you have them so.

B

One question I have is because I said it last time like what are your thoughts on reflection, contacts wait.

C

At the API well,.

B

As the mechanism I did, the API canvas I'm a Caribbean. It's gonna be so when I walk the app. What I.

C

B

Say to me it would be not interested if you call that it opens right up to the edge of your base, design.

B

Know what well it boy attribute says and of course the custom I can put it into the source code right like that. That's fine I'm, saying that if you need to customize somebody else's type of attributes, then, rather than doing that, I would I would I would do reflection context. But but if we say we don't want to have these attributes codes either we only want to call back mechanism and that's fine. What.

E

Does he look like that context? One API back today. Well.

B

The way would work is you would basic pass in deflection context. You've won the Jason's, it allows it to use when it walks. You objects how.

M

Do you get one there's.

B

An API that gives you the current one and then you can basically say you can we can create your own one and then basically, you have to define basically what about the monster mapping the one time gives you type and then you have to create the type in your universe. My.

E

Bet is super argued. It.

B

Like it's not going to be pretty now I'm saying is it we could build something on top of that? That would be better than it would be still more lightweight and that's a type converter, yeah.

E

I think either filter yeah, but.

B

I, don't envy I, think Vavoom reflection. Colors will never really beg the API. It's a good idea on paper. I, don't think anybody API.

E

Where you can target properties using like c-sharp syntax under countries not kind of stuff or visitor, that walked off the graph, and then they watched the type draft and then gives you a call back per thing. Sanely visit type, what a cute on the on a site visit property. What's on this property, I'm, not sure what you're.

B

Thinking through all those callbacks I would not to add to this in the context of a basis I think they projects themselves are the policy, and so basically you you won't have set.

H

B

There's a callback for what case and what me to use for this property- and you just do this.

H

Very isn't this: how have you seen my baby I could work under the cover, so yeah yeah and don't customers actually seem to like it yeah, but that's not anyway. It is, but it's I believe I'm. You seen what they P I work around. If I just saying we we do all of the hard stuff up front and the only stuff that takes place for requests is the like, relatively lightweight yeah, stuff, lightweight.

B

I mean that's akin to what we've been talking about for the past know what why do you think is easier to say, give me properties for for this thing, and then you new up a Chibueze than to say no, no I just give you the reviews.

H

Tell you, the attributes are just a declarative way to say here's the called app that implements the behavior right. We want the callbacks themselves in the / Matic way. It may be imperative.

B

To things here so I'm.

H

B

So I think you all the agreement that the customer can put so much was in their code right.

J

B

J

B

Like as in brackets on the actual, that's fine, so what we're talking about now is like, if that is not enough for you, because either you don't control the type. So you.

G

Just going to do.

B

That you won't do it programmatically and in. Let me talk about now. The the the the shape of these api's and I'm, saying in these api's I would avoid system would attribute, as the core API I would just say. You have a policy indicated by the kind of callback and fine I knew whatever you want to do that, but you.

E

B

You out to make attributes in return, agreeance.

E

They seem I, see much you've got a callback or a tight run for a property. The function is once you have that callback and you're saying I'm, a property I'm, a property name, yeah, it's a mad person type. What do I call to set policy do I call some buxom the up your model, like policy dot, said camelcase policy, Don blah for.

B

Exams marks that call, but it's fine.

E

Okay call me this tremendous.

B

Weight can anyway.

E

Better yeah, yes, then attributes are artists, input to the policy, but it's all. We read the attributes and call a bunch of a bunch of methods on this off the object, yep and then pass you and say: hey. This property has palsy beacon. If you want to get you.

H

Know, and one and one of those methods is a virtual method, which is give me the name that you want me to serialize out to the wire right right, actually like I'm. Looking at this, this callback thing and Steve I think you actually have something very similar to those where I chase an enum converter attribute like it's an attribute that returns a delegate effectively.

D

I didn't we're almost out of time. We are out of time here, but.

J

D

I've, looked at certain plugin points like have a raves and things like that and I added a special. um You know based attribute that you could derive from and have complete control things like camel casing. I don't want to necessarily have to implement snake casing and other variants and and enums.

D

um You know business dnews and things like that. Something like hey I'm, just gonna, create a well. You know my own well-known attribute here that you derived from and do what you need to do, which is essentially you know it could be a call back as well.

E

Yeah we're going to spend a budget item before like using this thing in anger and then like making changes. I just.

C

Think it anger.

E

C

Well, it's by the way, so I know that it's night one one thing position resilient: serialization, deserialization, no I'm, tweeting,.

B

C

Bazillion is UNIX to be able to use it and by the way, if I can ethnicity now is decay. We were the dawn, but then every single developer needs to implement very generous aliens, which I cannot see.

G

C

Thing is that you know, let's say we release some answers because version one and after returns these fields in the JSON table, and then they start returning more or somebody grabs and SB came from. You know new we're SDK and calls a previous version of other API yeah, and now it returns less. The serializer needs to be resilient to it and in some cases, needs to be able to run so the way it's done in that experiment.

C

There's this diction, you can put a dictionary in your mother type and if the seer Eliezer sees a property that it doesn't actually have, it just puts it into the dictionary and then, when that, when the type is serialized, it puts it back into that nearby log.

C

Without this feature, it kind of it seems like the only breaks.

J

And we need that feature. That's I've been calling that the overflow feature.

C

So it's not planned for these reasons is that what you're saying no.

D

I think I mean it's what we decide to be MVP. So if a requirement is you know, as your knee disease or someone else, needs ease and will add it, I mean pending time and schedule. Of course,.

B

Two weeks it is yeah. We.

E

Practicing preview, for is, we react when I think we're gonna use the to visor and it's been a core good. Like we're, gonna use anything we do it. Rework we have to figure out how do I get hinges and make it big chains that only get feels.

B

Of policy, it scares me a bit that me I, don't think we can design an MEP and ship that, because I think we have to design for much more than the MVP, and they only maybe implement a subsection of it, because we have to think about it. I.

H

B

Round-Tripping interacts with certain policies that it all has to work.

D

As a disclaimer I mentioned at the top here that there's other features that will affect the api and they might even affect current API. So yeah, I don't know what I don't know so you know I could definitely spend some time on a custom, sir, no hazard, utiliser and then, along with that some callbacks and get that kind of fleshed out, because I think that is probably gonna be required for MVP at least a custom t serializer, um but I think we can keep making progress on. You know the sake.

D

Keep you know meeting until we get mmm its hashed out an.

B

Article ii, like the one of the things you can just do, is like just write the things up there we need to solve, and then at least decide whether we need to solve them in order to validate the design of it. That we can. You think, they're isolated thing.

E

For example, everyone.

B

E

Try and that's.

B

The thing with build time, as I said on the math, how it like.

E

B

Believe a ot is a core scenario like I. We kind of have to think about how this works in build time.

D

Ending features on the bottom, um those are the ones I assume we need for MVP.

B

So, let's just quickly do an open issue thing so most of the people that we that we have, we need to think about LT generation.

C

One and I do think that this welcome box, the knobs and IOT they're all.

G

Kind of the same picture.

C

Yeah the immutable, basically, you know immutable of the graph and IOT is this thing might be on the same feature or very similar.

C

Envision resilience.

B

Resiliency I, don't like the term because it seems very broad I would say it's overflow wrong, tripping! Writing it's overflow, underflow plus roundtrip, and that's really what it is.

B

Does that one I can atleast see us solving arbitrary version changes very like oh I've renamed. This type now give me a call back to accommodate those payloads. I would say it like. You can do things like that see.

C

What you see well design set of callbacks they solve all these problems. Yeah.

E

Lenny or anything is to figure out what's a top level that are super common, don't tell me keeping the bull.

F

Should be a boob actually.

E

That in there timber wasn't camel, can you design well yeah.

D

Okay, the reason why the design is like it is is there's more than one way to do. um Casein you know they're, stinky, sin and I, don't know three or four different ways to do it and I made it a separate attribute. So it's extendable, and so if you have a bull here and if you want to support a snake case and well, then it should be an enum and I don't and what? If someone wants to write their own hold on if I want camel casing today, what do I do you?

D

You would either yet put an attribute on your class or a call at attribute depending on right, which one it happens.

J

D

Have an example of that later: okay,.

C

Oh, we do not keep like, so this we're gonna keep cutting more and more our tickets for all the things that you do want, yeah, yeah I would.

B

Also say, kissing later is probably mostly mobile. Sharing library, global yeah.

E

We wanted to set the bool.

D

um The the Jason property attribute in theory would hold all of the common ones. You know that are simple bulls and ants and stuff that aren't necessarily extendable I mean. Are you really gonna? You know extend skip value on, read, I guess you know that sort of thing, um but as soon as there's an attribute like casein that you you know, you can write n number of different case and strategies. Then it becomes his own attribute.

G

It can be extended by pacing, isn't necessarily global. So, for example, sometimes people want to camelcase their property names on classes, but they don't want to camelcase the key names and dictionaries. So windows are serialized so Jason they both look the same, but they can have different meanings like you. Don't want to start messing around with keys on a dictionary like, for example, it might be employee permission stored in a dictionary, and if you came okay so then it changes the underlying value and.

D

And things like snake you've seen um you know, which is adding underscores in between words, um can get very complicated. You know you have to look at with sticks and things like that and it's something I didn't want to implement here and I was.

G

Speaking speaking of camel, casing, I'd highly recommend you just copy and paste jason donates logic for doing it. I gets more as more complicated than you would think to camel case something how you would expect. I came okay since something to what a user would expect, like. There's lots of little corner cases, and it's the thing that once you once you shepard.

G

If you change the camel casing rules, it's a breaking change and javascript, because javascript is case sensitive and the adjacent on that camel case in logic has had, has changed a couple of times, and some people have gotten angry with me when I've done that.

G

Yeah but like what? What happens if there's an underscore like, do you came okay, the first character after an underscore or what happens if you have xml reader and xml as all in capitals like you, just came okay, so first x and not the rest like there are. There are little weird situations which people don't think of on the surface.

D

Some good feedback and that's why honestly I created the occasion as a separate attribute, because I just do the simple, lowercase first character in.

L

Your situation then whatever to say if you make, wouldn't that be something someone would disagree with. So why make answer.

G

L

Not be completely neutral and say, if you really want custom camel casing, because you have underscore you have whatever you do you create your own property name as an attribute another, do any magic and know what.

G

You want me to do so and rest on. It is I name in strategy interface and then camel casing is just none fermentation of it. So there's a camel case and strategy and was a snake hasten strategy. So you can yeah whatever I.

I

Think it standard.

G

Strategy or say whatever and.

I

That's just like.

G

People can go in and override it. It's just camel casing: I I have a pretty.

D

G

It's pretty good implementation. We should just.

B

G

I'd recommend looking in the.

B

Low to poisoner and at the XCore dictionary it's a name anyway, alright. So then let's wrap things up other signals later, and then we can talk about this. Alright I think we did another meeting.