.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 2 Apr 2019

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00:-52:-10 - Approved: Evolving EventCounter API https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/36129#issuecomment-479128603
01:10:58 - Approved: SSLStream Allow Configuration of CipherSuites https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/33809#issuecomment-479132747
01:24:49 - Approved: Simpler way to specify leaveOpen in StreamWriter constructor https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/8173#issuecomment-479149933

A

I think I think we're live. No, oh, you did one waiting hardcore user, alright, so yeah.

B

Can you slide.

A

Down yeah, they may just ignore a little bit too. They actually have a chance and.

B

Go ahead and slide down until you see you have this first set of code, okay, so the goal of this is this is sort of a follow on we've been doing some changes to diagnostic source and we actually knew that we would probably do it in two stages. So the first stage was what we call the w3c.

B

You know support, so they have a new different. They have a different kind of ID than the one we were using previously and we wanted to basically add the capability of supporting different IDs in system dot activities, so I system dot activity is the thing that you know allows us to flow. You know what you're doing through the system, and not surprisingly, when a request comes in or requests leave.

B

You want information to come in via those requests and sort of flow through the system and then also be propagated to any request that you make to other machines, and so people like a peon sites are very interested in making this stuff work and that's the partner, that's being blocked. If we don't do this, so we did. The first round was just enough.

B

So that they could support the new style of ID, but then the next thing that we knew that we also wanted to do in 300 was to do sampling because they wanted it on all the time. But you can't have it on all the time unless you sample, because it's just too expensive otherwise- and it turns out also that the w3c ID has support for a sampling bit. So the idea is along with the ID there's this Flags field.

B

There are eight bits in the flags field, but only one of them is defined so far and that bit basically says this is a request that that I think you should log. It's actually only were cool a desire that it be because if you send too many of these, the guy has the right to say. You are sending me way too many requests for recording I'm only going to do some of them, but Phil the idea bility to propagate that. That desire is valuable. So that's what the first, the first part of this.

B

There are two parts of the API change and the first part is basically activity needs to have these flags as one as part of its state in the same way, that is, it have the ID. We also wanted to have the flags you should be when you are bringing activities in. So you have a your parent ID. You should be able to pass in the flags.

B

We also allow you to set them just because they're these flags don't well it's quite possible that you want to turn the recording a bit on halfway through you've decided that you know what, for whatever reason, I've determined that this activity is important and so I want to turn on the recording, because otherwise no one can turn off a recording bit. There has to be some mechanism to turn on the recording bit, so we allow so we create this new Flags property.

B

So that's so we may eat up any noon which has a 1-bit defined so far, and then we created this W CID Flags, which is pretty much just a getter setter, and then we added a recording bit and a recording property, and all that does is mask off the recording bit of the flags. So it's it's a complete convenience. We could get rid of it, but it's also the main thing that you do with these flags, and so it was valuable to have that and that's pretty much it.

B

This is very kind of, in my opinion, boring it's just one more bite. We actually expect this to happen again and again in the future. You can stuff things into what we call baggage or any.

C

B

You can you can you we have these key value pairs, but as we get canonical ones, we expect to just define.

B

You know well strongly tight versions, because people prefer strongly tied versions, it's less error-prone and it's and can be more efficient. So that's the first half and I. Don't think, there's a whole lot on there. Okay, can you slide down a little bit more? If money does it'll get my own screen.

B

Okay, so that second half is the so far all we've done is: we've allowed the recording bit to be propagated, but the question is: is who actually decides that something should be sampled, and it's also possible that too many recording bits have been set and that somebody is gonna have to decide to throw some of them away anyway, and and actually, in the first version of this API, we tried to put some of that logic in activity into this thing, and we decided that was a bad idea that we that there was too much that the clients of these people, like app insights, would care about and want to fiddle with, and so pretty much all we did was we.

B

We wanted to make sure that there was a way for them to get the hook, that they needed to set these bits, and so, and that boils down to where you want to set these bits, is when things from outside the system are creating activities for the first time and then also in things when activities are leaving the system.

B

Those are the points in which logging systems want a hook, because that allows them to put in inject policy like decide to actually set the recording bit or not, and they may get to set it to do it every 100 bits or every whatever they can come up with it, whatever out whether they want, and so all we did basically is create two new.

B

You know a diagnostic source already has a is enabled and write event, and we basically are having two more on activity import and on activity export, and then there needs to be a way that the client of these things can inject. Those like say these are the ones I want, and that's so we already had subscribed methods that took you know the is enabled and the observer. You know the yeah, the observer, but and so now we also allow you to provide an on activity, import and export.

B

We expect the number of clients who actually do this to be exceedingly small, basically app insights or people who are as sophisticated.

B

If you don't need to do sampling, if you, if somebody else is doing that, for you probably don't need these, the other nice thing that these things do is that it gives them a hook at a very nice place, so that if we have forgotten anything or they want to change the semantics or whatever they actually have a quite a bit of flexibility to basically hack and and beat us into submission, because they have a hook at the right spot. So they might even use that.

B

But the goal of this really is for them to do small amounts of policy and pretty much what that means is setting the recording bit and that's about it. So again, these things as far as what's inside activity does very little. The SUBSCRIBE remembers the delegates that you pass to it and then, if someone actually calls one of these things, it forwards it on to every client in turn, to get his chance to do something at that point in time to use the hook.

D

I joined the Holi and I may have missed it. Sorry, but how does the? How did the two delegates pass to subscribe relate to the virtuals or did the virtuals invoke the delegates or something like that or.

B

D

B

The so on activity, exporting import are things that an instrumentation site will do so, for example, when when HTTP is reading in a request, we will modify the HTTP code site to not only do it is enable check and to write, maybe a something, but we will also in this case, do it all an activity import now. What will happen is if any subscriber to a you know to a diagnostic listener for the. What does that do when I called that function?

B

You know where does it go, and the answer is whoever subscribed to it on the other side, and there could be many of them. There could be several subscribers. Each one gets a turn. Sort of you know do something and he was given the activity and then this other thing, which is this odd.

B

You know that we just call it object and that that object will change depending on the code site so for an HTTP request coming in it's, it's gonna, be whatever holds the state coming in and if there isn't one conveniently exists, you kind of have to make one. Someone will have to make one, and that would be unfortunate because it's another object that has to be allocated. But right now the only instance that we know of is HTTP request and it already exists, and so it's fine did I answer your question.

B

Stephen I'm, not sure I did I'm.

E

Not sure it was interesting, so we were presumably we.

D

So I guess I can just go and read the ability for the overrides here, but is it the overrides somewhat? Someone ends up calling diagnostic listener on activity export and that's what triggers the delegate invocation for everyone who subscribed that's right.

B

Okay, so in diagnostic listener his implementation is I have a it's already the case that diagnostic listener had this list of subscribers. That list of subscribers had the right event and he is enabled for each subscriber. Each subscriber now also has a on activity import and on activity, export delegate, and so what the diagnostic listeners implementation of on activity import does is just spin through all of those subscribers giving them a chance to to you know, have the cold got it so.

D

These are really like strongly-typed back right up right operations or something.

B

Where we've all cited doing so, you are they're very much. They feel in some ways like right object, but the difference, and we, if you squint properly and you you can- you can actually try to make this work by saying. I have special right events or something that you call a particular point. So these are your call-outs, but we, you know after thinking about that, for a little bit, we decided that was a hack, because the the point of these is the modify state. The point of right is not to modify.

B

State is only to sort of log in to sort of sent them something down the pike and, moreover, as we expect right to be very common, we expect any client to override right. You do stuff with we expect point. Oh one percent of the people who are subscribers to care about this. If they don't care about sampling and really sort of advanced mutation of stage and wanting the hooks, then they don't need to do any of this, which is another advantage of not burying it in the existing API.

F

G

F

Of just make it in the.

B

Base, instead of make you mean an event like a CC shark event, you mean so.

B

We're following the pattern that has already been established, the there's also unsubscribing the sea shark events has always been sort of mushy and painful like because you don't actually get a handle to it, and so you have when you unsubscribing, you have to use the delegate as the handle and it's kind of a it's a kind of a pain this.

B

What this was trying to do is was trying to be the the eye. What's the ienumerable, the other one is herbal.

H

Thank you. It's.

B

Trying to follow the eye observable pattern, but then you need more callbacks besides just next, and so these are sort of those, and it is, it definitely does have like things that you don't like, like you know, subscribe is starting to get painful like it's already got four things: what if we needed another one, why go now? It's five and yeah and the the value is? Is that or the you know the mitigation to that is that very very few people will ever care about this.

B

One is is really what you know, and so it's not it's only complicated for the people who need the extra come. You know the extra feature, but you could certainly imagine doing it other ways, but this is the one that follows the pattern. That's already been established.

D

I think you just said this, but just to agree the reason you made these actions rather than my observers is just that you're never going to be completing it.

B

Well, making it my observer, makes it even more complicated. Like my observers are having implemented than myself. I observers I have it, have a non-trivial overhead like I never did yeah, and so I did not want to make it more complicated than it needed to be. Is why I did it? You could have imagined them being observers.

B

D

B

D

Enabled callback.

B

Oh that already existed, and so a diagnostic listener has to or diagnostic source as two fundamental api's. One is right, yeah and the only reason why right isn't enough is because what, in order to write, you need to create a payload object, and so you don't want to do that when it's off, and so we have is enabled and right is they is the ones that existed already so there's already others subscribe overloads that went this far and in fact all I did was, you know, make two.

B

You know this one be have to knew that have default parameter.

D

Is it's already puncturing the object ultra-cool? Yes,.

B

D

B

Already exist, I'm, not the only two that are new, or these. These are just following the overloads that are already there. Okay,.

D

So people who are familiar with this API already know what that signature means. Yes,.

B

I already know what.

D

This website well.

B

Except for the own activity, so there's a quite a long paragraph of explanation on these two, because they are it's hard to explain them unless, which is very unfortunate, widened you, you prefer your api's to be so obvious that you can explain them short simply, and this one I basically have to say well, these are Flynn you're coming in from the outside world, even explaining that requires a bit of text and, moreover, is that there's no guarantee that any particular instrumentation site has has instrumented with one of these eye on activity, import or export like they don't have to so there's all sorts of things that can go wrong.

B

The good news is that the number of sites where this is important, I think I can count on my fingers and we own them all. So that mitigates this.

B

And I think that's pretty much it. That's the the name of the thing. I, don't know if you care about the on or but it feels reasonable. It really is when you're importing or exporting activity when it's coming from the outside world or coming in from the outside world or leaving to go to the outside world, and there is at least a little bit of documentation on how it's supposed to be used.

F

That's it the previous screen. Yes, we do have a guideline that says: do not use the suffix flags and Annette I'm happy to remove it, but I do also see that it does actually match what they call it. The spec yeah.

H

We called it record ding.

B

F

They call it report dead. Oh.

B

I'm actually happy to I didn't realize that I was assuming a text.

B

So recording sounds a little bit weird to me because it the pipe but but I'm, happy to follow the spec yeah I mean like I, was just looking for something. This is the trace state. Yes, here's a state.

F

Flags the findings bit one as report dead, big, so I'm, happy to change that and then says that it. If you made a decision to record it, you should assert the flag. If it comes in into this audience, it's.

B

Fair, it's fair to say that someone made that decision earlier, and so it is kind of past that so changing it to recording and then.

F

I, don't have a super strong opinion about this use of flags because we have the conflicting guidance of we have a. This is the word flags is in the spec here and right. Our guidance says notice. The word flags, but.

D

Generally, we've been following the specs one of the other specs whenever possible game I mean just in order to minimize confusion, yeah yeah.

B

And everything else we did try to mimic that spec, but like the wire name.

F

For it at least what they have a good example, header is tra c EF, l.e.d.s yeah. So.

A

Should this be a type desert bike, then if it's literally abide in rolling implementation, the.

D

The premium really Lexington's being is yeah.

B

I really the earlier version of this I did make it a bite and I said you know what I can avoid that in the API and so I made it a gnome.

B

Realistically, everyone should be using literally those enum values like there's no reason to go outside of those and we'll never define one, that's outside the heat by train just won't. So it feels like it's not a problem internally. The internal implementation I actually do only use a bike.

F

Yeah, so I I think we should rename recording to remember dead, to mention respect, I'm.

C

F

I'm I'm fine, with the resolving the two conflicting rules in favor of menses.

A

And so the one thing we shouldn't do here is, it is checked, so we already have this overload here. Yes, which means we should not mark this guy's optional. Otherwise it is ambiguous. I think the compiler will probably still bind to the other one, but it the.

D

Other compiler was hoping for the first one. The question is to be expect people to call this with only a non activity. Export.

A

So, basically, a schema that we should remove the opportunity from both.

D

So all good yeah like if, if we expect people to call this with either with just export, then you you kind of wanted to have on activity import either. You want to be import to be optional.

B

Or you want to have two over those boots, it's much more likely that a client will want to override just on activity import. Then then, the.

A

Reverse on, as far does the compiler give you a warning when you've been in this case, or does it just silently bind to the other ones, you do it.

E

Just like they bind your existing on oh yeah,.

A

So, in this case, actually making them both optional adds value, because you can just use the : context to decide which one you want.

B

Yeah and I'll just leave it the way it is yeah. The.

A

Only other thing I had is: maybe we should rename payload obj to payload object, but okay.

H

A

Pay one you know actually I like that. There's.

G

A very high qualifying you'll.

A

Also go with state because that's what we use pretty much everywhere else, but I don't care that much.

D

We use payload just that one word in my events or sate the eyes right. I, don't remember.

G

It's Amanda Klee, equivalent to state and we don't already have a precedence on this title tail. It didn't like the general, a thing that gets passed and you can look at it. If you keep, you understand housing.

D

But imagine the behaviors. If you don't understand that hallo you should just avoid the.

B

Payload object, yeah yeah.

D

B

G

B

Is it is a fairly likely situation in which all you wanted to do was fiddle with the activity Oh like we've already got the we put the payload object there, because you you some things will have been transferred to the activity by us and if that's enough to do what you needed to do is for, and in particular recording is likely to be that we've already transferred the recording bits. So then all you have to do is like decide to turn it on or decide to turn it off.

B

So you didn't even care about the payload object yeah, but if you did didn't care, obviously you have to know that this particular site passes a block einde of object, whatever it is and and is enabled I. Imagine.

D

That's called very very very frequently once we subscribe, it's the most frequently called API, so there is, there is a another work item that we should probably open up as a result of this, which is the ability to proactively get a delegate. I know we have a ton dynamic method, but right now, what will happen is if you create a delegate to in this enable function and it hasn't been jetted.

D

Yet the delegate will always always always point to the priest on even after the methods in general, which means you have several indirection before the method even gets invoked, always for the remainder of the application. If we had the ability to create the delegate, we can make that better. I mean it's not it's not necessary for this. Obviously, it's just something we could do to make this even better right, but that can be done when I'm gonna.

B

Teach rounds online I just wanted to yeah yeah yeah voices, hey.

D

B

Loved her, that sounds fine, so just so I remembered so I heard we wanted to change a payload object to payload, recording to recorded and I think we decided to not do anything else. That way it seems.

A

B

A

Just had a good notes to do: okay, great coming over as well anybody other than anything else. Otherwise, I'll just approve it as proposed.

I

Well seems to breakfast okay, great.

F

Thank you, I mean the only other question. Is it's called w3c ID, so it's Capitol number capital capital. You know. Do.

B

These receipts, when it's like just run it back up, yeah.

F

I mean I, don't know that I'm it just. It looks weird because it looks like a big long string of caps. Now.

A

I agree: yeah I would see them something I like especially like this. It's it's empty with it see, I do a CLD which is the other world, but I think.

J

It would look more weird if you lower cased the seed. No, though actually I mean what they will so what they call it here is tres fives, oh yeah,.

F

Three sorry's flags at least gets rid of the CIS.

B

So I don't have a problem making pretty trace in there. We kind of did that. With the other case, we had activity trace, ID and activity.

B

F

Saying that is ending the trace flags value of the race context, whatever w3c calls our specs in today's recommendation, then following it w3c traits like seems fine and a proper dating qualifier only applies now.

F

It's a knack for me of why that is.

A

It interesting to w3c it. We just call activity trace Flags, so they don't.

A

I'm, sorry, so is there any venue and actually having the w3c prefix appropriate, just call it activity basically.

B

A

I mean at least that tells you what it's for idea, that one is it yeah.

B

F

The docks can say that it's aligned to the game, every currency recommendation I, don't need to embed that in the name. Unless, unless it's to this ambiguity with another similar dated, you know now, there's no other meaning, but.

B

I'm, okay, with it I, don't care.

A

Little supports the so.

B

I'm sorry, what was the final name? Then it's just it addicted with you trace flags anyway. Alt is a better.

A

B

A

Activity trees once comes up.

B

And, and or the trace hikes is what they called it in this bag. Yeah.

F

Okay I mean they called in sick flags. I guess.

B

C

F

C

I

That's cool right and I think that was it.

F

I guess technically it's currently a double. You can see working draft yeah.

A

You're lucky they change it before we ship what, after we shipped that they may be lucky. It.

B

Has been fairly stable.

F

Wait until someone ships and then you do an editorial revision and take all your now.

H

And the names are not gonna. Okay,.

A

Alright, so then this guy cuz, no, we have it all right. So then I would go over this one or should we do something else? First, oh here's one yeah! So.

K

Do you want to give us an overview of what this is, so it's the Queen? This is a proposal to extend an existing device on a class. That's already existing API that you can use to track events that are very frequently happening. It's supposed to be used for accounting purposes, but.

D

Some traumatic that we already shipped this in 1 and G 2 more. This is new in a.

E

K

B

It's actually older than 2 1. It goes back, I've forgotten exactly land at least a 200 and I still remember designing that yeah Ben.

L

Years ago it's been.

B

A long time so it shipped in four seven one apparently yeah yeah. It.

A

B

On the desktop in that core one yeah.

K

K

So the proposal is to add three new classes that are similar to have encountered, but are heaps lucky differently, because you've encountered me not behave, not so well for certain kinds of counters or metrics so and also extending event counter the current, even counter API to UM add to new public surfaces. So the property disappointing is there so that um you can add the gun counters. um This, like literally like a name for this point purposes.

K

So as of now, you can create an event counter with a name, but let the thing you want to display it in some kind of like long viewer that wants to like be used on a CLI setting and if you want to enable it, with the mean that it was provided with. But one of this boy with, like the nice like with spaces and things like that them may not work in work very nicely in like a CLI settings. So um property was added there so that they can that, if, if needed um so.

A

Do we expect this to be exposed as a command-line option or just for display purposes just for you? Okay, so we don't expect people to have a command-line switch that matches that or anything we don't.

B

Have control technically over what they do, but but we expect them to use the programming name of the event or the counter is, is more convenient for things like that, because you don't have to query it and things like that. So what's.

A

Also displayed in the kind of place admit it might be localized or other things that we may actually change it to like. So.

B

The question of localization is interesting. We you didn't address that the.

A

Only reason I'm asking is because if you say, if you call something display name and then you say, is used in the Condors of the CLI, that I'm gonna be hearing, is that you end up with scripts that refer to them right, in which case it's no longer a display name, but it's actually like programmatic name. But if you don't expect that to be the case and I think the name is explained in this one yeah, that's more like a fertility thing.

A

If you say the stain in my I would assume we can change that as well. But is it is referred to the script it wouldn't be able to because it would write people.

K

And the next one was metadata, so um this is mainly because so initialization may be about something that even with better data, um so it's basically an arbitrary key value pair um that can be added optionally again and that gets reported with the payload of the encounter.

K

So let's say, like someone wants to mark their counter as like important or something like that. Where.

B

The units of retinol units prefer units and anything with anything that be equal. No, the site the instrumentation site knows that would be useful for the viewer to know you can pipe through this. That's the idea and we've already had it several instances of this kind of data that would be handy formatting if I prefer the number to be an X or something I. Don't know.

F

I already captured that we have explicit full metadata. Is it ok.

M

One word yeah: it's.

F

At a table with words that are commonly misspelled, Department.

K

And then there's a new class called hole encounter, which is a variation of the event counter if yeah, but this is um this gets created with a delegate that they can use to get the metrics out of instead of explicitly having to call um right on it. So.

B

So the original event counter was designed for a particular kind of instrumentation case, which is I, have a lot of things that are firing many times a lot. So, every time a request comes in, you want to be able to just say to the event counter: ok, log-log that, but don't actually like send an event. That's too expensive. So that's what it does, and so it's expecting right right, right, right right, every time that thing changes, you tell me that something's that the counter has changed.

B

It turns out that in many of the cases we have a different thing, for whatever reason someone has already got a number: it goes up and down it's the amount of memory in the process, its fee. It's the working set, it's something else. Somebody else has done that for me and so I don't actually have something that says: write, write, write or well I'm changing, and so we want and that we want to plug into those kind of scenarios and that's what this is for.

B

Originally, we tried to glom it on to the event counter itself: just have one class that did it all and we were decided that there were that it was starting to become more confusing like it was the Swiss Army knife that had so many devices in it that you don't know what it's for anymore, and so we decided to break them up, and so this is one of the chunks.

F

As in, is it using dictionary Semenya to the photography, yeah super.

A

We also call it set at that point because add kind of closet sedative, which is set to specially, chose your glasses on yeah.

H

You scroll down.

B

You can see that it doesn't. It has a very impoverished API. You just basically give it this function that equal call when it wants the pole when, when the client wants, you know once a second or whatever it told it to do, it will call this function and then will ask whatever thing was already accumulating: that piece of data to give it back to it and so I it really just pulling counter, doesn't do much except link the two things together.

K

Yeah, whoever is listening to this and said that interval and then that'll report exactly.

B

Like so Venkanna already has this notion that the controller of the camera and other end can give it commands and in particular decide what the polling interval is or I want a poll. Now, please give it to me now. This is sort of what you need on the instrumentation side, I'm at an intimate station site. What do I need to do and pretty much I just need to provide the delegate, pull back the whole wasn't sold before disclose. We didn't do it never.

F

Had those kind of event I feel, like Chris stuff, usually suggests things that come in through a constructor, it's nice to have a get property to give it back, meaning not necessarily on the delegate with them, which one you talk about display name or the counter.

B

Name in the events or I believe they seem to be linked. Do we have a property already for name I come with my theater yeah I'd, be surprised that we didn't have poly count as an entirely new class, his good point, but they didn't Damaris. Does it in heard from Ellen come true? No.

N

E

See that it doesn't, which is.

N

B

O

To mission looks by design logically.

B

They are logically they're all counters, but there's sort of nothing API ish, that sort of really you know, blinds them together. We.

F

Might imagine are at the main event counter currently does not happen now in the event source or the street name expose. It just has like metric in this code and.

K

I think we get the mean by doing to string okay anyway,.

B

That I think it's fine to have a name property, but.

A

So please abuse an abstract base, display name a name on it. So.

K

So we talked about this I don't want.

A

K

Implementation detail for this I actually have it implements already so event, Connor encounter and the rest of the counters in this thing inherits of base class, that's dark base class, and that has this way named as a property. Yeah I think that might make us.

A

All this has been fermentation, I think it's easier for customers if they have a hierarchy where you have related things together, because we're Hawks, they show you. If you already have strike, you see the derive times, alright, okay and I think it makes a little bit easier, especially like things like. Oh, we should always have a display. Name should always have a name. Well, you just prescribed it on the base and cities. I have striking you better, have them, and then all you pass them and nominations for.

B

B

A

B

Suggested it how.

A

Did you call the way stuck with base corner yeah? Well, I will probably go with something like diagnostic on or something cuz. We don't usually use base.

C

F

Notice that event counter is disposable, enemies became disposable into one; presumably, the space should be disposable and all these yeah.

C

Yeah cuz the base class.

F

Hierarchy is part of the public API yeah, unless we allow you the rep compared to the implementation. No, no. What what the verse does when we do that, so the base class hierarchy should have been.

J

It's also worth calling out that metadata should be lowercase D. Yes,.

F

Okay, I missed that.

J

F

Was the I wouldn't look at the TV, because I thought that that would say that one of the.

G

N

As soon as a display name is actually a getter and setter, yes, yeah.

K

That was uh yeah I just.

N

Know it deduction you're right though yeah looks like I feel.

A

Let me just edit this at mine here, so they actually they're talking about ash I mean I just made of him only and it's get said or just.

F

And I assume the reason that it's post-construction settable is vocalization or any other renames that anybody feels like doing if they can actually get a hold of the place. Yeah.

B

Mostly, we don't fear I'm gonna, be like you know, it's just the it's just a variable that we send out the pipe um just. So if you want to change it, if it.

F

You know character and they get a lead or, if.

B

There was a new variant that we were trying to preserve. Then it makes more sense to sort of say, hey. You said it once and then we'll validate it. Why flow being returned can get metric function rather than double that looks like it's. What he that kind of takes a Guzman, yeah. Okay, we were kind of following suit. There.

J

Yeah just wondering since classically most of the api's and.net have taken double so yeah.

C

I really don't like the name, get metric function but I'm having trouble coming up with.

C

G

Just be jet metric.

B

G

B

I would have said, get value, isn't too bad.

G

I just spoke a second function.

P

It sounds like if there is a function, yeah.

D

Indeed, well, I think laziest con value, factory, yeah yeah, it's an actual factory, that's true I'm.

F

Just trying to think of things where we take try to think of an API like this one above I want to call this a bunch instead of I'm gonna call it once I mean.

D

That's pretty much all the methods on link are and they're either called funk or selector or random. Things like that. Oh.

B

Wait Steve Steven. Do you have a suggestion? It was hit value, honest.

D

Thing get value seems.

D

Original, where someone just takes five minutes and does a sampling across the framework and see what we already use and if anything matches closely, we use that yeah.

A

Was just thinking the same thing? That's even just brought up I think most of the time they try to avoid it. Try to avoid what, like we usually have a very specific name like selector or predicate and see so.

B

Again, I use too. Generic is what you're saying.

A

No I'm just saying that we usually don't have that problem, because we venture.

B

A

Game an injury is also lighter. Does it provide you.

B

Metrics you are getting the metric, so get. Metrics also finds it's about the fun because, after all, the function I was a month.

A

I wanna see it, we just call it metric at that point. Yeah.

B

I'd like to get metric because if you said metric to me it would be the value, but if you say, get metric, it's the verb and therefore the function that gets the value. So it.

A

Doesn't express any.

B

A

Arguments because you're just supposed to like for life whatever that's right.

B

You're just saying what is the value now? If so it returns, you know, would it be silly for it to be called poll I.

B

Prefer something like poll metric but oh.

B

Q

A bowler yeah pull, or this.

Q

B

E

R

Already a so here, a poll metric to me seems to work well with the name of the type.

H

Actually poll metrics pretty.

B

Reasonable yep McClane any last. Anyone.

F

Care I'm just trying to see if I could find anything. I was thinking this way on.

E

The existing event counter do we have anything related to this, like, oh there, any things called metrics or.

D

There anything called debt or poll or any such things. We we have a right function.

B

R

H

Mean on events or service counter I, actually.

R

Might have encountered okay, having.

B

Metric in the name would probably be good. Whole metric is reasonable yeah if the existing one is called right. Metric whole metric seems actually given that this is the called appalling counter. I think. Actually it's pretty good.

B

Going once going twice whole metric waitthat's, let's move on.

A

And there's the usage, it all makes sense to me.

E

Sorry I made us earlier: did you say that we're planning to add a base class to all of these yeah and that admitted date is moving down to the base yeah? Well, there's more than Miguel.

A

G

Yeah, you should yeah.

A

F

Does it make sense for the since the event I mentioned the name? Does it make sense for the event counter to have a get exposing the event source off of it again? This is good. We'll get him to get me. What did we just usually, if something is given the instructor parameter, we had a good only proper time.

B

F

Packet, does it make sense, it.

B

Makes sense it I could even imagine it being useful like on the base class, we would name.

F

And event source be yet only properties, I, don't have a problem and then they would get the add metadata and the display name is we get set and do.

N

You want, in that case, on the polling counter as well. The metric doesn't make sense, no.

F

Yeah well enough that one starts feeling weirder.

B

The other one that has value in the sense that you might want to send events to the same place you were sending the counters to, and so knowing what that was after the fact. Otherwise, you would have to somehow get a contract with whoever created it to sort of give it to you as well, so they all taken events worth right. Yes,.

A

So then, that should be on the basis woman. Yes,.

J

How frequently does the increment counter happen or float incrementals, one.

K

But I haven't pointed out that me, oh yeah, I can talk about the increment to morning.

J

I'm, mostly interested in how frequently it happens, because after 16 million increments you're going to start incrementing by 2 or 0. If you are trying to increment by 1, based on how low filling points work.

B

Not necessarily so the fact that the float is coming in as a float doesn't mean our increment is a float if our increment was a float. What you're saying is true well.

J

If it's an integer, if it's a if the base value, is a float and you're incrementing it by an integer or a float or anything by 1 right right right so.

B

All I'm saying is: we still have control, it could be a double internally. The accumulating value could be a double yeah which would avoid what you destroyed, but up till to the power 52 yeah I'm really hungry. That's a pretty big.

L

Nose after that, yeah.

A

So my question is like, after you created such a contour like, wouldn't you do with them like how do I get so.

B

All of these it's about there's some subscriber on the other end that already we've already got that plumbing pipes, because that came.

S

In with the original event counter, and so.

B

This is about different instrumentation scenarios, and so the back end still looks the same, which is that somebody subscribes either through etw or an event listener and says. I would like to get the information out of these things and says. I would like to get this information every 10 seconds or whatever or I'd like the information right now, and then the counter gives you back a payload that just it actually keeps statistics. It keeps the man in the max and the average, so is expectation.

A

In my app, if I want to provide that GC heap such thing, I just muted up and store it somewhere, so doing it, what the GC is that it so.

B

I mean you can do this for internal telemetry, but what we my expectation actually is that, often for until telemetry, you don't even want to bother with the counters, because every counter got its information from someplace and and often you can just go to that place and get it so, for example, if you wanted to know the process working set, you would ask for you call there's Berkeley, you know the API that does that, and that would be easier and simpler than sort of creating an event listener that listens to this and then puck it out and like decoded and blah blah blah.

B

But if you're actually going out a process, that's where this starts to add value. You know and the scenario sort of makes more sense, but you can do that if you wanted to know.

A

I guess my question is like. Presumably the idea is that by mean youing, this thing up, I somehow allow external entities to get this data. Somehow that's right. So my question is like: if I am an application author, what do I have to do to make that happen? Branches and then we're seeing up.

C

A

Just stick it somewhere. Do it like? My question is basically like like who does this line here.

B

That's the instrumentation yeah, so.

A

And where does this whole encounter go like I mean feel you have to hold on to that or something so.

R

It the the pattern that we established is that all of these counters are fields in some event source. So, if you imagine that you are the library author or you know, whoever who decides to create an event source, because you want to provide telemetry to somebody nice and then you decide that you want to have a particular counter. The pattern that we set is you just declare a field of this type in your event source and you new up one of these objects and for the case of pole encounter that's it.

R

You knew it up with this delegate and you're done. It will call the delegate when it needs to get the value, push it out on the pipe. So the most.

A

Common argument here will be this then I suppose right because you're, basically holding on to that yourself, I suppose.

A

Okay, that makes sense.

A

Then I think that was the question on the polling interval like this is not customizable. Is that the idea it's.

R

It is it's customizable by the telemetry client, the guy who wants to receive it, gets to tell you how often he wants it.

R

But that communication is happening via netw. No, a back channel like etw. It's not occurring via a c-sharp api, make sense.

B

So this incrementing event counter and I mean it's very similar to event counter. It's just that the meaning of what gets done with the data is different and, and initially we sort of say wow. You could do that with metadata or other things, and then effectively. We decided that it was a big enough difference that it was worth having the different name. You know and forcing someone to.

B

Understand that this is a different kind of implementation scenario than the other one.

B

So effectively there are counters that accumulate over time and what you usually want under those circumstances, is you want to create rates? You want to say I've exceptions and I would like exceptions per minute or exceptions per hour, but the idea is that we I don't really want exceptions because that's an ever-increasing number or you have something like total working set. That's a number and it like doesn't always increase monotonically forever and those are two different scenarios and you do. We should highlight the fact that those are sort of different.

B

What they actually do is. Unity in the plumbing is actually very, very similar.

K

It's just the way we calculate the statistics that we report changes, because it's an increment.

B

We think I'd like to make it easier for people to do the right thing and overloading this on the same class. What's causing wouldn't call it.

F

I, just gotta make sense to be adjustable after it's created or that make more sense. I'm. Sorry.

G

We put the time scale.

F

Like when you change it from exceptions per minute to exceptions per hour after you've created the counters.

B

F

B

This is sort of a default that that gets piped or as metadata to the viewer is, and so you kind of don't expect it to change over time. You expect it to you know it's an attribute of the deed of metric, like what I'm doing exceptions. How many you know do I, do I want to permit him or do our and it's sort of a guess by the the guy who's in surveying the site. But you know I would rather have this probably per minute than per second, but it's a guess and it'll.

B

It can be overridden by the client, and this is just lets. The viewer do a better job of guessing, but.

R

In terms of its mutability, I mean I would think of it similar to display name where the overwhelmingly common scenario would be. You set it once initially and never touch it again.

F

Every counter said it so should it be a constructor parameter as well as a set of all property, but huh you would anyone create one of these? In never said it yeah.

B

Yes, you can do that; it just means, there's no good default, and so the the viewer has the guess without any hints. So if you have a hint of what a good interval is, then please provide it. You cannot provide it and that's why it's not a constructor permanent. So.

F

I feel like with windows per counters. I was trying to find how they work with a rate counter. You always get a base counter, which was the step, and then the value counter, which is different. You need both here or is something supposed to track with the time line elsewhere.

F

uh I feel that Windows has this notion of, like you had to had one of you bumped by one that he used as a step function of like oh I need to go. We calculate the rate from hell.

B

Yeah I know that Windows had those two counter things and I'll tell you that the complexity of Windows per counters was sort of something we were trying to avoid here.

F

Well, does that thing is this managed internally, if you're trying to make a rate counter, as you mentioned rate counter, and the time scales seems to be for rate counters and I'm, just wondering if this is solving its problem for the other thing later for helping solve that problem.

B

I can't give you an authority thing Noah, do you want to say anything or what so the simple and again question is I? Don't I I would need to. You know, do a better comparison between the two we're to be able to answer your question. Yeah I mean.

F

Certainly I think we.

R

Can it sorry go ahead? My.

F

Concern was if.

R

F

Adding we're having stuff here for helping do rate counters, but we haven't proven that it works for rate counters. We maybe add an API, that's not the right API for this, and so.

R

I do think we can say that we are adding these in part because we are using them right now in the runtime, so we do sort of have our own examples that will validate that it works. You can argue.

B

That we're missing a scenario like there's a more advanced, an area that we're not covering, but that comes back to my point, which is that it felt like Windows counters were trying to do too much, and you know what you want is you want at least the simple cases to be handled simply.

F

R

That's really, we certainly think so and if our own work we're just discover, that's not the case, which seems unlikely at this point, but if it did then, then we would know quite soon.

K

There's one more API here, incrementing polling counter, which is sort of the same thing, but it holds the value that are you happen to call increment yourself on.

H

The instrumentation.

B

So it poles, but it also isn't a number that is bounded. It's a number that monotonically increases so effectively. There is a grid here, you know, does the value monotonically increase and really what you want our rates and or is it a value that sort of hovers and- and you know, moves up and down on its own and stays in bounds?

B

Naturally, that's the incrementing versus non increment and then the polling or not polling is whether there's something have to accumulate all these number to get the value or does somebody something else already done that and all you need to do is grab the number from somewhere. What.

A

It's a so basically do is that this thing will call the gate function. Where you take the result and editable is already there yeah. Should we call the accumulating polling condo.

R

Forgotten are we yeah? We did. We did discuss accumulating. The concern was that accumulating is a slightly more generic term, which arguably all of these things do as in all of them. You have data, that's coming in in little packets and you're accumulating it and summarizing it and then sending out a summary. So incrementing sounded more specific as in it is a number that increases I.

F

Mean incrementing on the previous one made sense, because you had a method called increments that defaulted to one, which is the thing that one's usually increments body. Yes, this one is assuming based on the previous name, I assume that you hold this function. You add it to your accumulator the function, ideally, if you called it immediately again, should return zero and it can sensibly return negative, maybe- and so there's this isn't an increment, because there's never a notion of one of the expected stack so.

R

S

R

I'm gonna have to run here in just a second, but actually so the get count function. It's expected that that number it's returning, you is some monotonically increasing number over time. So we're actually so the get go ahead. The get count function doesn't have to reset the counter that it retrieved for you. It's just you know, there's some number of exceptions, that's just forever increasing and you call get count to ask what that current number is.

F

Returns, what the actual answer is polling captain? It's.

B

About how that number gets used in the sense that it you want, you effectively want to undo the incrementation, so you know that the viewer he doesn't want. I'm gonna have.

C

B

Off bye, guys see ya, you don't want to see an ever monotonically increasing number. Even though that's what's being returned by this function, you want it broken up into some interval. The this display rate time scale figure out what it was at the beginning of that figure out what it was at the end subtracted to get that Delta create a rate and display that number I know what.

P

Kind of class instead of those kind like English that symmetric and it's something which takes numbers and if there's a number you like what operations?

P

Could you repeat that and so in crazy K, instead of creating incremental? So like you assume that some of those numbers right, you create something which takes a function of flows?

P

Okay, so you set up and have another arrangement and then basically neither can decide. Okay, I, don't want to store it and there of D.

B

Be the goal of these four classes were a belief that, by trying to make one thing that tries to do everything, you actually confuse people that it's hard to do the right thing, because they actually are different scenarios and, and so what we preferred was each one smaller things. That only did one scenario once you picked it. You know it becomes very obvious what to do, and you don't have to sort of think too hard.

B

That was the that was the design sort of spot that we were in and it sounds like that's moving away from that spot if, if I interpreted properly, so that's why we didn't do it, it's not that it wouldn't work or so forth, but I mean.

F

It does sort of feel that what you want is a great converter on I to the value push down through or the polling counter yeah yeah yeah, like certainly looking at this. If I were trying to write. One of these I I clearly assumed that that.

F

B

Of this of that constructor we left out, because you know we want to keep it small, but but clearly we would document the fact that we sort of expect the monotonically increasing thing. Ideally.

F

The type name and the parameter name together, yes,.

B

Loreena documentation is indeed.

B

So we'll be fiddling with it yeah and if you want to like think about it for a few hours and then come back, that's also. Okay, like I, don't want to put you on the spot. Oh yeah,.

F

I mean like something like value provider or something like indicates than the others, to give a total it's giving the total yeah, and so certainly.

B

Remains are well.

F

Within I can gloss over the type name and say that you have an intimate encounter, you had a whole encounter and this is the incrementing pol encounter, and it makes sense that you want to use it and then I would call the metric. The one we had before for polling I would call a metric provider and I would call this one. You know you totally meant drop by total yeah. So then it's it says in the name. What it provides us that totally you get any answer. I mean.

B

Total, certainly having total in that parameter yet to me makes a lot of sense even having total in the Cawley a total polling counter I, don't know, I have to think about that. But yeah I mean it's not insane like you.

F

Know total total value provider to be says it is a thing that provides a total value like yeah I know how to write one of those.

B

And the names of the class should be related to how an instrumentation site uses it. You know what I mean, so the fact that I need to provide a function that provides a total is how you use it. So that's incrementing is the word being used for rate and we want.

F

The word read the word incrementing, but I.

B

We talked about really.

K

B

K

B

Down this road, but it was like a month or two ago so.

F

I, don't remember it.

B

F

B

F

Incrementing right now said great look if the intention is to provide a rate counter yeah.

B

We definitely talked about raid, the danger I believe the reason I think I'm, remembering one thing, which is that the rate is is related to how it did gets displayed, and it's completely true, but we felt like the class name, should reflect how it was collected. You know what I mean like because anyway, because that's what you care about when you're using these api's right. Ultimately, someone will display a rate, but you don't really care about that at this point.

B

But these were all things where we went around for a while and then ultimately we picked something because we ran out of talk. You know what I mean, like suppose, you could.

A

Call it sum to rate opponent combo, because that's really what it does, but it takes us some and makes it yeah.

H

A

B

These are all released. You know I'm personally,.

F

Fine, with incremental encounter that link to the suggestion I would have is this: what's currently called get fountain function? I would call something like total value provider and I would go back to the previous BOE encounter and I would call it metric provider or value provider or something the way the two of them look like. They were designed at the same time, and you know, and then and now it gives a much better sense of how you would write this one. So.

A

Hold on, like you would call this guy what I.

F

Leave the class name alone, because I don't have a better name yeah. It feels a little weird, certainly.

B

Changing parameter names, yeah.

F

B

F

Name for the what's currently called Punk get count, function, I would call total value provider and then I would go back. What.

A

B

The other one called.

F

B

That when we said pull metric yeah, so I would call that one metric metric.

F

Provider I think.

B

We're not providers not.

F

Bad there for me and then we're using provider as this function is a yeah.

B

It's a provider, I think that's reasonable and then.

J

For me, I think it works with monotonic.

C

And 32bit scares.

J

Me and counter.

C

And float scares me.

J

Because the numbers for counter.

B

C

Doubles hires me.

J

B

In in retrospect, had we not called the other thing event counter? We would have preferred that we called it like him. We were to do it over again. We wouldn't call it event counter. We call it metric or you know we wouldn't have called the counter. We agree. The counter is a bad name but consistent. You know there's this question now of the okay. Is this one completely mean differently than the others and so forth? So we everything is counter, but.

J

Then, even even if we say it's not counter, it's just a metric right, I I think I'd still like to see double rather than float, because when you start getting to monotonic in 32-bit values, there's no fixing it later.

B

I guess I, don't era, otherwise we're gonna, be you know, but I just want to think. If the only thing that might make me care is the only place we use in the existing API was right, took a float if.

F

Your API contract is passing the flow through to the course or whatever plate. These can still accomplish that by taking double is there they.

J

B

Then state converting things and representable.

F

Agree so that's.

B

Why I don't care how long yeah.

F

So we could say that you know what el último gets passed. Is the float foot using double rods for increased person? I'm I don't care. So if you guys want it to be mm.

B

Let's do that add on much an opinion. I'm sorry see that cover. Did you get both of your thing out? Yeah.

J

I think that covers both.

J

Why do you want to use doubles everywhere or just preferably and all the public surface area or anywhere, where we are saying something is monotonic.

B

And you're concerned with with you know, roundoff they are effective well,.

J

For the monotonic case, it's not just round off air. It's overflowing! Oh.

L

That's what I meant over.

E

J

And double will help with roundoff error for the accumulation as well.

F

So your process is live long enough to witness to the exceptions, in which case all these are.

B

Yeah there is a there's, a.

C

Practical insanity going on here.

B

F

Wonderful state, where a double Plus woman, you.

J

Know cell is the same aren't round so the other thing I generally don't like about doubles and floats, is that half of all representable values are between negative one and positive one. So you end up with most states being there, but most people don't like working with values that are normalized, though between zero and one. So.

A

The UI looks like as preventable a as a doctor if I just.

C

Use the mail truck emoji and.

A

The dependence is as though, as the woman Shrek emoji, followed by the sign for mail. That's correct. That seems.

D

Very weird: it's not it's, not the female shrub emoji! It's the gender-neutral.

A

That makes status 20.

I

G

This is you're with Joyner.

B

Moving right along ice, are we done or I think we're done.

A

We just go back to this page here and paste in the comments that I had all the way to the bottom, like this sort.

B

So you should, you should like modify a little bit like and update this, so that it has all the modifications and then send out another round saying this is what I'm doing you know. I mean here's. What I think is now is, and then they can decide to turn China in one more time as plain yeah feel like it wasn't, or they thought about it. Me I really hate it. You know it might be fostering well, I, don't think we need to meet for that right. This isn't.

O

B

Gonna we're gonna sort of say it, and then you guys now have the onus to sort of veto it. If, if you feel it's wrong, we're moving ahead.

B

I'm not even sure, forgetting this man, we're going to add.

A

The only also forgiveness of this room forever all right side.

N

Off so we have two api's which are blocking partner. Oh there's, a.

A

N

Have the people in the room, but we can check so.

A

The copy tracing one we might be able to look at and then the other one was doing.

K

A

This one here, I think, was the wrong, and it's not the one.

H

You're going to use.

I

A

Exclusive is here, though,.

N

We have actually Mario is one over one and Jeremy, so yeah.

P

So in a canteen SSO stream that does not like allow any way of creating ourselves Rustom.

S

P

So does like, while she policy of Cyprus.

P

Episode policy object.

P

Instead, the object the user cannot modify because.

P

And the public inspector, the user has to pass it around and once you construct that we can possible a sniper fire.

P

And you, my person.

R

Sorry I may be missing, so it seems this builder thing seems unnecessarily complex. Why isn't this just a collection of Cypress wheats on the on the.

P

Authentication options.

P

There's a couple of reasons: actually, so one reason is like 8 implementations, so example open SSL, the NT does not let you set the explicit list of the psychosis, which means if we make the unit above object, it would have to be constructed every single time on every person. But that's one reason and the other reason is in case in the future. We had some more options in here like filtering other things, still much easier to handle the maternal object.

P

D

So the policy is an okay. Sir. Immutable object, the one once you had a policy. No, a third-party developer cannot inspect the policy only benign internal sure. Yes, okay, every places.

F

So I know the reason for the building of policy is that Windows needs to turn the allow list into a denialist after intersecting over the system. Opening cell needs to turn the allow us to bring configurator an apple. It's actually convenient work, but if, if we're in the end resulting in a list of Cypress Suites, it seems like the policy could allow the discoverability of that VM.

F

Knowing this and then I wonder if the builders should essentially just be lists of like you should be able to seat it with a memorable, you should be able to add stuff to it and when you're done, you called it right now where it takes a list in your place at Whole, Foods.

E

I guess I would've assumed better, take it so come back so you're saying. The reason we have this builder is because it's expensive.

D

To create the policy, and so you want to allow someone to create at once, rather.

F

Than reading it, whatever insightful, yes, it's mod, it's it's moderately expensive and anybody who's gonna use. This option is probably gonna use. One set of policy and they're gonna use it for the whole app, but then use it for every they'll use it for every SSL stream. They have it open, but.

A

The most useful or the most like expected, API parent, would be. You would either have the constructor on cipher suites policy that just takes and I would only live stuff, cipher suite or it takes my new able and then you just call it a day and like. Why would.

F

Instruct another.

A

Object to just basically hit that one out that seems very yeah.

F

That's true yeah, if it just took it as a constructor parameter and it returned the class, it should be sealed if it just returned in the class and then you could inspect it as a I was yeah. The Builder would make sense if we're adding filter into it. But until we have that in public.

D

Yeah yeah like so you just have public sealed class cipher Suites policy that has a constructor that takes an ienumerable of TLS cipher, suite yeah.

A

D

Like then, and then collars would be encouraged to hold it. What is is TLS I per suite, and this would be awesome or is it already universe.

P

D

P

Proof it's not ever in there. It is it recently, a group, oh really.

C

P

It says century llamo volume, 4 episode. Oh yes,.

K

Yes, the thing we all the caps.

P

F

Just sneak them in one way: on the one hand, that was it then, on the other hand, they're really advanced. It's.

C

F

It matches the standard and there's a place that if we remove the underscores, the value becomes. A beacon is that the gear on the book, boiling water and frog content.

F

So does that make sense to you, your stuff public, sealed class cypress tree policy? Has a public instructor that takes ball says? Would you still be able to do implement.

D

That in an efficient way, I know that you have to be something different. Well, we talk about.

G

Football: okay: it's in.

P

Terms would be Wow yeah.

N

The question: can you get us channel to change the site for a cipher suite? We talk with them right and there are options exactly fitting what we need in the future working on being discussed.

P

Much as I mean that's not covered for so much as but it's possible.

D

Ready Hyman said we really don't want people using this API so.

F

The only other question would be.

F

Governance, well, the thing to consider is: are there any policies that that makes sense for us to publish as pre published.

D

But you you read, turn off. We turn off older versions of the LS.

F

If there was any I mean I know that we have the SDL, but it's a point in time thing: that's constantly evolving if there was any spending ever that mentioned like these are the recommended cipher suites. As of gain or chasm that you know by 2010, he doesn't like painted value, then we could reference. I like this is this: is the this person set of stuff.

F

It's just a thing to consider it possibly doesn't matter because again we don't want anyone there. That's this API and.

G

We could always out.

F

Them whether they want us at their system.

G

And then and then just use their system.

A

All right so then, let me just cool actually, no, it can't go there because it's actually pasted in here.

A

So does this sound? What I just said.

D

G

D

G

And then, then, the only other question back to the previous thing is: should we allow that to come back as an inspector, but it'd be I, read only lets the an opaque ienumerable that doesn't let you go back and modify it, etc, because we took a thing me.

A

F

So heading an ienumerable that lets you get back to Cyprus wheat and it can be written as there's this iterator state machine that looks over the things. So you're not allowed a much.

G

More corn, would you do it, it just inspect them inspect it. So.

D

You'll see this.

C

D

That you're implementing the third-party component that actually relies on this because you're, instead of using HTTP client under the coverage, you're inventing your own thing like how would it should give you client to be able to look at the cycle change policy if.

F

You get back the exception that says the cypress we could not meet ago. She ate it. If you look at the, if you can get back the input state that went into it and be like, oh because you only enabled things that have been disabled on every computer in the world for the last ten years, then that would help you up what understand one, what uh weapons of some learning system over this.

D

System, dot security, and that's done that's just in that security. Where is HTTP.

D

Right and so now, I based on that scenario, I'm, not understanding what this caches and where so. This is gonna have to do something with the underlying implementations to transform this list into something else. If I was implementing my own thing instead of a should be client that took one of these who's doing what and when well.

F

If you're building your own thing, that's replacing SSL stream, then then you would use this enumerable to figure out how you're going to do that work. Sure.

D

This thing, but you're saying this thing would have already done the covers in a way: that's not accessible to me correct.

F

Because this is building itself so that it couldn't work for SSL stream, because that's the cell stream is gonna, be it'll, have an opaque value. That is the right answer for X channel on Windows. That will have an opaque value. That's the right answer for open SSL on Linux and it'll have a right answer: they're, opaque value. That is the right answer, or Apple's, secure transport right.

D

So this is gonna compute, something that's expensive to compute, but unless I'm Asian, unless I'm SSL stream, that's useless to me. Well.

F

Because unless your SSL stream, the value doesn't apply to you if you're writing your own TLS packet, didn't matter.

F

I'm writing a replacement, httpclient, it's built on top of SSL stream. You still get to use the same free computer, Doug and otherwise this was I'm moderately expensive, one-time operation for your own library right, but don't work with you, don't replace our TLS provide.

D

Okay, I guess it just feels weird to me that we're saying we say don't replace our TLS provider, but if you want to replace our Telos provider, here's the way to do it. No, no.

F

My saver for this is if you've after you've made a connection, and it throws the exception of no Cyprus, we can be negotiated, you could log. This was these, were the six things I said, I was allowed to try.

F

So this is about logging. This is about investigating failure. Instead of doing anything on the success path.

F

That's the only reason, I think has any value being exposed.

F

Also, the good older I passed it up in value through a bunch of api's that I can't tell if somebody replaced in midstream did the one that I thought I passed in actually made it through lots of automation or a banker.

F

This should definitely not return the input list because modifying casting it back out and modifying it would have unpredictable results. So this should use.

F

Well, shouldn't or a Breen analyst, or something like no one's ever gonna call it so it doesn't need to be efficient. It just needs to not return the underlying data right.

G

It's gonna be the play, P I, it's it doesn't say it's expensive for other people and no one's gonna use it anyway. So we.

G

F

I might be going up where we're adding it to the client, the server options and the two properties that take it and putting under their brows will never on them. Like that's I'm perfectly fine with that, because we really want literally no one to ever call this. This is an escape valve, so they stop yelling at okay.

F

A

Fine, it just feels weird but I'm yeah, but that makes it really really a 10-8 for system crypt over everything else feels very, very selective. No, but your your gut check is right. Steve.

D

Like we don't like it either one.

N

Of these gets in, we need to put up the documentation right away, saying like never ever use it.

P

Is it gonna be? We should put it on the site person for sale for Justin, wait.

D

Wait what what is getting a true browsable number here, the.

P

Best part, my understanding was from the USS authentication options.

E

Which lie isn't isn't as necessary. You want to configure this.

P

N

Pls Marge, don't like we don't want anyone to do that unless they really really really have a good reason. Yeah yeah.

D

But sending editor browsable seems like a really big stick: I mean it how it makes it entirely: undiscoverable, even people that know what they're doing that people who know what they're doing first now scoffs yeah that, basically that this is being implemented for very specific people who have very specific scenarios and they remain in contact with the product team or us to tell them. Please don't do this, but if you really need to do it, here's how you do it and.

E

Somebody give any other any other cases in the framework where we hide something like that. I.

D

Don't think so yet, where we hide stuff, where we hide stuff that we're doing for a very small number of people, yeah I, think the answer is, you know, generally, we bury it in an undiscoverable namespace, but I don't think we tend to fit editor brows, we'll never on.

E

Stuff that that feels wrong to me, the pulmonary.

A

Interesting, what you're saying yeah I agree with Stephen, because the one realtor browsable is that if you, if you are one of those people, don't have to use it like you base, you have to fight the two day, which seems like no helping well.

N

You have it, why do you think they try.

A

N

Make it really not discoverable for people not to use it external.

A

Right but I think the question is like you know it's too discoverable in dogs right, so people will just copy and paste source code. They will just work like I've been Nikki the typical scenario where somebody goes on Stack Overflow and they call X didn't work, but copy and paste is Costa, but that would still work if.

N

Somebody posted.

A

On Stack Overflow we are we're screwed because yeah and that's kind of the the thing where I don't know, like maybe there's better options to that I, don't know what they are, but I. Think in general, like you know, documentation helps obsoleting api's can help there's various ways you can do it I think hiding. It is generally problematic because hiding doesn't give you any sort of information right. It's just it's just not there. It doesn't.

I

Think why I didn't tell you what your.

I

Solution? Yes, that's.

N

Our there's yeah well I, feel I. Have it on my plan for frequent zero yeah just yesterday, that's some time when that one is not so I think they're coming back like what we will do prevent rola is from people excellently. You know discovering that and like just hitting dog.

E

Scenario, like you know, people do that right. They do. This I could be cool. Sorry, Steve, Louis, I'm, doing SSL options. So this is our authentication options: dot, cipher, Suites policy equals news or cipher Suites policy with new list. Tls cipher suite.

D

Dot some capital letters, long name accidentally, know where it's me my paranoia. What was that earlier about people just copying and pasting from stock over know? Well,.

E

My paranoia is.

J

Whether general browser, because.

N

The project overflow, like you, know bad guidance or one post or something like that, but I'm afraid exactly about what you Steve said. Because people say like you know what else can I you know I want to be in fully in charge. What should I set like? It did not read documentation it just like start doing dog and they see all ciphers. It's oh I know what what kind of cipher suites I want. I know what kind of you know. Tls versions I want, and you know preventing something that is useful. Okay,.

A

But I would say that let's be real, like I mean if I'm an ordinary developer and I read the term a lot cipher Suites I'm, not thinking. Oh, that's an attractive setting. I should live because I didn't know what it means like I mean. If it's something like you know,.

O

You will be amazed, people to see people see like you know, tell us something, and it's oh sure. Of course, I won't be charged.

D

With knows it's not the developers doing that that's the IT shops pushing down bad guidance that their developers are forced to follow.

E

That guidance, regardless of whether it's editor, browsable and I, think.

A

I think honestly, editor brawls, with the reason I'm not a fan, is that it's the same guidelines. You know I, think I told the story before but like office. Try this at some point like making office more discoverable by de-emphasizing, really use functions right and as soon as you have to hide for things once you go into the tool options and save. For this always show me everything which kind of defeats the point and I think like this is the same here like I mean there's double options.

A

You can turn editor plausible off as soon as you had to hunt for an API once you were just turning off global it just to feel kind of the the point. I think editor browser will only make sense for things we just know.

A

Humans will never ever call it's only for infrastructure code like compilers or others to call where the namespace thing, for whatever reason doesn't work, because there has to be a member on some type or whatever, but I think for the most part we like, if there's a bad API I, will be much more in favor of what you just said: I can analyze it, because if they copy and paste code I want them to get a warning and say you probably don't want to call this API or and here's why you shouldn't call this API okay.

A

So maybe maybe we just say.

D

The ship, ship and analyzing them like I, think I think vomit that in in addition to or in place of making a better browser level, so.

A

I would say the reason I say that getting any was able to follow. Matic is if what you said earlier is true right, there's some customer who actually talks to us and has to use it yeah. If they actually have to touch the code, it just becomes shitty right because not every day they get, they don't see this. They will talk to you again said what doesn't show up and until he sends you like. No it's there just copy and paste trading.

D

Tres, hopefully they've only hopefully they've touched a total of three lines of code throughout their entire project. In order to hook this up, which means it's not a writer in cost for them, it's a one-time cost.

A

I'm sure like to me it's more like about bad precedence in general. It's, like you, know, I, don't think api's that shouldn't be used or should be really used should be hidden, I, think there's just I I also.

D

Think we we do not scale to shore every customer that might actually have a valid need to what, if we're just obsolete it straight up them when we introduce it.

Q

I'd be okay with that, but what would the message be? The message would be consult the gardens are the stuff w-want. Let.

A

Me give you a phone number and industry.

Q

I have most phone numbers where you can record up 1-800 to do not to call I guess we give them a switchboard.

A

Yeah I think yeah.

A

So what's the what's the concern, the concern is that just misconfigure their stuff and they accidentally make them less secure than they should be. It's it's not that it's, but it's.

T

Also cryptography, basically so you know after a couple of years, so I think guidelines change.

P

N

Hold people to be on or as defaults, right or TLS for cipher suites. There is just extreme scenarios versus like medical devices, whatnot IOT, where they really want full control because they know better. They have VPNs on top of that and whatnot these people and set that and they have to kind of review and maintain their code very carefully yeah. But it's kind of orderly security super have.

D

Our people, your that's, what it is you're signing yourself up for ongoing maintenance abuse of this right. It's not something you can just sudden for get. You actually have to be willing to patch your application. There were a few months we just we just put like some really scary language and the summary tag and the intellisense.

T

Intersectionally inkless, especially populated by documentation, isn't it yeah.

A

I mean whatever you put there like: it just doesn't apply when.

E

You copy and paste code right because you don't write it, but I think one is Sumerian. Is that a plausible or ops I mean absolutely what I guess that'd.

D

Be a real warning, be an analyzer rather than obsolete, which I always think is weird when you're adding it to brand doing yes,.

N

This is harder than like, you know, suppress and stuff, so I think.

A

Observation has several topics, but I think so the one. So the reason I'm asking is so that so the question is really. What are you protecting yourself from right? Because if what Levi said is true, like somebody pushes down bad guidance whatever morning, we give people they're like yeah I, know I'm not supposed to, but I have warning, so they will just immediately turn it off. So these are the so like if you think you know what you're doing whatever obstacle we put in your way. You're like yeah but I, know better.

A

You override it anyways right. So the only thing you need to do is to protect yourself from with somebody thinking that there might have to do something but I. Think honestly, like cryptic names or just you know how to use api's like this one here I plan to protection like you're, not accidentally doing this, because you think you're getting something you're, not gay I think this is like I think this is most applicable for AP. Is that sound very attractive, but they really are backward? So they really don't. Do we busy?

A

Don't do me any favors because they actually go backwards. So what's the TLS API.

N

Trs protocols, on one hand like why would people send that people.

A

Do what TLS makes more sense right, because TLS is one of those areas where everybody recently went to the exercise by service stopped working because they had the wrong TLS version selected right. This goes back. They said it before that I.

N

Said it before they had exactly that. That's the trouble right you know and that's why we have the trouble because servers don't know these guys Oh plus week, a long time ago we had from guidance, but you don't need it all right. Well,.

A

That's the other thing: if you, if you publish bad guidance, I tell people to set it, then yes, you're screwing yourself right like there's nothing! You can do about that. At that point, you're, better off sticking the API and say yeah I mean I know we told you to do it, but it's really wrong to set it in here. That's why right, but I think this goes more to education right like if you have a. If you have a problem of guidance.

A

Educating people helps if your problem is people doing the wrong thing, because they think they're doing the right thing, I think there's nothing. You can do like it's just that at that point is just game over what namespaces.

D

D

It's not really discovering the namespace anyway, so people probably wouldn't be tempted to find this. That's.

A

Why I would say like honesty? It seems you know, as I said, any crypto API is really hard enough to use that people are not accidentally poking around absolutely, but.

M

They agree, I think.

I

Documentation is growing here and it's.

M

Easier to add something later after we look beat it to death and figure out that we want to do something than to take something away. So thank you. You are right that the.

D

Crypto API is are hard to use, which is why people literally just copy and paste the top answer from Stack Overflow, which is why we, actually there were crypto API, so were being proposed for three own, like string GCM, that we literally killed, because we couldn't figure out how to implement it safely without people just copying and pasting stuff from Stack Overflow.

D

That was honestly the reason they killed it rather than putting in the product, because it would be so so fundamentally dangerous for people to copy and paste without knowing what they're doing that, we just said we catch with us. It would be irresponsible of.

Q

A

What would be the signal flow question that somebody would ask that would point them to a code snippet that would set a lot surface with how.

N

Do I set up SSL what not custom by question? How do I use this specific list of recommended type.

P

L

How do I use steel at one point? Two.

N

Or I do evening, blaster so frequent zero. It.

A

Sounds like that should be a book poster and the answer should be: don't you just around us default. My.

T

Vision, national excuse, you know I'm actually.

C

Somewhat serious that connect, if you publish a blog post in the.net,.

A

Blog and you have a good title chances are it's the first day like? Basically, if you, if you, if you, if you predict there, will be get violence on Stack Overflow, just make sure you have a good guidance all beforehand. Yeah well gives people lazy edges as.

D

They just do the first blog post copy and paste whatever. That said, that's it and it's nothing to do here and like first off the saying Steve. This could be the same thing we did for like unsafe thought. Unbox just documented. This is a safe usage. Yes,.

D

I'd be fine if the summary for this was do not call in capital letters like unless you really know what you're doing actually.

B

D

Have boilerplate that stuff like this is intended? What is it this supports the framework and is not intended to be used from customer code? Oh, this is right. Yeah. This.

N

Is borderline? You should explain like war on those scenarios yeah so.

Q

N

And analyzer seems like the nice to combo yeah.

D

That's what I heard from here sure this Ana lawyers? We could also make granular so that you don't just like disable warnings. You.

N

Can easily click they can disable that thingy. You know.

Q

D

The package that contains the API Christine Cortez- yes, so.

N

We don't have the online of shipping.

D

O

N

Of a platform for last two years, or something like that and I hope that, hopefully we'll be able to share so much I said that last year as well.

P

P

We also do one very simple process: if you have already a person, I woke up.

N

M

Is in the future.

N

As it frequently, even if it's a good person, if it's not 3.0 blocking, we have 20 of 3.0 blocking that person has to wake period, you just have to communicate our.

S

Did we do promise daddy died.

A

I didn't prove anything I said like I. Basically, I think I asked the same question that that Carolyn speak. We can look at it but idea. What's going on, it's Ava's I think Jeremy somebody's. You want.

M

Oil number Jeremy how long.

L

B

Her achievement.

M

It shouldn't be long: it's 8 173, just one of the very old ones, trying to get it out future.

M

Jeremy confused.

N

I already said is another for Piper I.

S

N

Keep telling people I'm sorry actually.

I

Ten modules or something I.

N

Doesn't make a difference? Do they have a huge business case that they need to explain actually do they.

Q

N

Time, machine or.

Q

They they don't even give us more about business case.

N

Why is it moving to the buck? We cannot go out of sight, so yeah.

A

All right, so what is the and something ready has a direction on anyway, so become too critical. What are looking at I was just looking at the thing that he was just saying, I'm so Jeremy. What was the one you wanted to look at eight.

M

M

Pretty old one so, but this is a pain point that people been asking us to fix and it's roughly there, but there's no way to fix it perfectly. But the whole thing where you want to leave. You want to leave the stream open when you create a stream writer or stream reader, so pain at the, but because we don't actually document what the default encoding is or the bumpy fell buffer size.

A

The exact discussion on this slide like how does this actually work at all, because the thing is, if you use a stream writer over a stream and you call I guess the rider might actually make more sense. But the problem of the reader, for example, was that it would buffer itself and whether the rider buffers but basically well you can get into these weird states where the reader buddy could shoot more from the streams. You can then reliably use the stream afterwards, because you have like read too much data already from it.

A

I don't know, there's a place. The screenwriter, the strong.

D

Stream reader, the leave open, is useful for something like memories stream, where you're gonna, you're, gonna rewind it or you know, you're reading them from a file stream. You're gonna read it multiple times, so you you wrap the screen reader around it, you leave it open and then, after you close the reader, you say: I'm gonna, reset the position of my file stream, you're right that you wouldn't say new stream reader file stream and then without changing the position on the file stream. Try and read from it because it may have progressed past where you.

M

Were yeah positioning and whenever L, so this this is about reutilizing, the same stream with different with reader writer or resetting it or whatever. So it's just when you do want to use it, it's a pain in the butt, because, basically, you end up good looking at the looking at the source code and trying to replicate what encode and buffer size are. If you haven't set them. Unfortunately, our existing constructors don't make it easy to add an additional constructor, because it would like butt heads with stream. Reader takes a true, etc.

M

So, like the recommendation, is down at the bottom after we discussed this for a few years, this has been open for almost three but like down at the bottom. The the simplest answer to let people do this is to basically expose our existing there's, there's already an internal property for leave open.

M

The recommendation here is just too exposed leave open and add a add, a getter setter to it as well.

M

It's all the way down at the bottom, so this doesn't work because if Butz had the stream and leave open, but seven streamreader, which already has a stream and the pie already- has a streams, constructor and travel you're saying the actual proposal is down at the very bottom.

D

Oh, can you scroll down.

Q

Like the first proposal that can't work because it conflicts.

D

Q

D

Constructor, it has the exact same signature. Well,.

Q

You, wouldn't you would just add these people of Vegas to do this thing. Cuz they're doing that edit Hugh I, don't know how you can do that.

D

Will still be a nut, standard-compliant well we'd screenreader, because then it gives it an avi. Breaking change can make things a default. It's a runtime breaking change, because we would now be accepting negative one. Where previously we didn't.

D

Yeah, which means that if you, if you were compiling against a rye assembly that had the defaults, but you were going to get some older runtime, you would get an exception automatic in the constructor I see.

A

Because implementation has to change yeah.

A

You would have to compile against the. However, you can see the vehicles to begin to move, so you cannot retroactively Li make that work with net seven anyway, you would have to make that these changes income. Basically, at the same time, yeah they'd have to go over Center, which still seems like we could do it.

A

I mean honestly. I would prefer that over anything else because they're these scales right. So if you have to add in force argument or you had a negative force- overload, make everything default there and remove the default from this one, and then you just have a sane way. Otherwise it becomes this never-ending problem. I, don't want to add another overload at all. Well, that's I'm, saying imagine we would have to expose a fourth option right way. We would do it would just add another overload. You.

Q

A

Everything default on that one and then go back to this one. Remove the default well, didn't.

D

Didn't you Steve order me say that there actually was a fourth option at the bottom of the fourth. Yes,.

M

That's the thing I'm recommending is down at the bottom after we kind of beat this around and it's we already have a leave open property inside both of these in text reader and text writer, it's just internal right and I just want to make it public and that seemed like the simplest, less greedy way to do it, because the the set of constructors between the two aren't the same.

M

So the pattern would be the same in this case for both the stream reader in the stream writer right. So you would do the normal constructor. The way you do it now and you just do leave open equals blah wrote me night.

M

I mean I, there's other options that we want to be adding the future that people when asked asking for for these things, you know and I'd much rather in like a des and options flags, don't really work because the buffer, size and stuff, like that, you know, you know doing something akin to the enumerator and adding a leader, or you know, actions or something like that. That requires a lot more thought.

A

I think you believe open one seems reasonable to me as well. It's just it's nothing. It will work for all cases for things that you want to have immutable right. You want to set them only once effectively.

A

I mean I'm gonna post over to leave open here, but I got may take five stream, but it's the same problem. It's like six overloads and what's going on people wanna said is: is a single. It's true acing that you probably can't change after you constructed it so like in general, like I, would be in favor of saying. Would we be okay with this.

M

Gene, it was a way down here, saying that we believe if somebody was talking about that, we generally weren't doing default, construct people arguments in constructors. It's a.

A

Pattern based, so the reason they haven't done them in the past is because we couldn't figure out how to make them serviceable, and then we talk of the roles and team. We came up with the servicing pattern or I shouldn't, say servicing and with a pattern on how we can safely add more overloads without getting into States where he causes ambiguities and the pattern is as what I said earlier, that if you have to add a fourth argument, what we would do is you've had another overload on the new one.

A

You make everything default and on the current one we just removed the defaults, but it's not a binary change. Everybody.

C

Found support to belong to.

A

The longer one correct and then you can always the source will compile you know. Binaries will just work fine and then you can always set any argument in any order, and things will just compose nicely I think that's a better way of gulab order, because otherwise, if you add a fourth one that we cannot, you know change after the constructor was run. Then the property pattern doesn't work right and then you are back to square one. Although.

M

In this case, two, if like we ever decide to change the default size, that would be kind of awkward I. On the other hand like it's, because it's a Const.

A

It's a it's a Const redder than a so that's what I would say. You would generally say what you do here. You just have a magic marker like minus one and say if it's minus one, you pick some number right. It's.

U

Not ideal, but it's still fine on exposed to the content, also the magic option, because we might change because you can't change it easily.

U

A

Have who maybe have changed internal buffer sizes of streams based on pro-french marks? I mean you're right. You can break people with that if they happen to rely on the exact things, but there's even none in forever I mean we change the internal buffers for I want to say, file stream from like I want to say one cage for K or something based on.

J

Some benchmark and in the future, as computers can performant will probably decide to change it again to something.

U

Others are fighting the Silla day as we close it. Yeah.

U

A

Mean if you really don't.

U

Want to change it I mean then.

A

That's fine but I think in general, like it's, the sentinel value is not ideal but I. Think for buffer sizes. It's okay, it's more problematic, usually wear now also has a meaning. That's like what what I'm gonna give you one day, I'd like this to be allow people passing in zero for this API today, I probably know maybe I mean it would just mean no buffering right.

J

Yeah, you could see zero baby. No, although I think most of our api's interpret zero as people.

D

Some of them yeah.

J

Like if you pass a capacity of zero to a list it does default, we don't we don't and I think negative, isn't allowed at all correct negative.

D

Is allowed for things like a time span, not infinite, for instance, and sometimes it's very good for that yeah. If.

M

We do add the default values to this. They would also solve other people's annoyance issues. If you want to just set the buffer size, you have to set the encoding, which is yeah.

K

A

To be fair, I think most of them are kind of reasonable, because you know you probably change you encoding more frequently than your buffer size right. So it's not the focal.

M

A

M

Later, that's about that's the you know, that's not always true, yeah right-click! Clearly we the further you get into this, this list of arguments, the more of a pain-in-the-butt it is for that and narrow set of people. Well, today we don't accept zero.

A

Buffer size, they say I, don't know right through that. Maybe we should just make the default.

J

hmm I think negative ones a sane or default just because you can't conceivably have negative one for the buffer size. But you could say zero means no buffering sure.

A

Yeah, what do people think about this.

I

Q

We go with the default. There should be to be just a target quick if, if.

D

We can do this, it's better, assuming that we don't inadvertently break people who might be you know relying on the existing behavior or whether intentionally or unintentionally,.

J

Of the buffer size, um no.

D

So so two things, but first, if maybe maybe there's a scenario where people are passing an actual encoding value into the constructor here and if they pass and all they actually want a an argument exception because it's like, oh, like clearly I, have a bug in my own code. Alternatively, what I mentioned earlier about about, for whatever reason, you're on a new references and leave it on an old one time, and now you get weird exceptions. I thought that religious.

J

But I thought for encoding. We already accepted null and we interpreted that as utf-8.

J

Because I bet that's what they default overload that just takes some know.

Q

This one flows for encoding on I, I.

D

Don't think it's common I hope no one's depending on it, I'm just wondering if that's.

M

Okay, then, the reader requires.

A

I mean, though, to be fair, like I. Don't care about that scenario, where somebody has the higher references, I'm everyone's down level, because that means you, you managed to compile against later run time and run or an older. That's always, okay,.

G

You can have an.

Q

Arbitrary arrows in.

A

Their page yeah, like.

Q

Missing method, missing type I do.

D

You think everything is undefined yeah. So then the only- and this is argument like does the API surface as it currently exists- allow people to find things that would otherwise be bugs in their code, because it does parameter checking right where, if we switch this to a default now it does the incorrect thing at one time that.

A

Is the downside? On the other hand, though, I.

A

Mean the general cable weakening preconditions right. That would be an example of that yeah.

D

And I'm, looking I'm, looking at other things that we have like dictionary, has takes a compare in its constructor as a parameter, and we allow passing mul there. Yeah.

J

And I think the most common is probably do string because I format provider, if it's no, we just say, get.

V

The current culture sure so, if I don't get school, the depo recording I don't have enough I get the bump size. You don't want to do it, but for changes, because you can't have non null. Oh, they have to be little. If that's the lesson, yes, its.

D

Encoding utf-8 no long.

I

Could run in them than yes.

A

See what are your thoughts while you applause the plan and kind.

E

Of past the point of caring.

D

As it seems, pretty unlikely to be using a new represent that contains this, an old runtime, yeah, yeah, I'm, willing, I'm willing to say we shouldn't worry about that, just as you all so, at which point if we could do with the existing constructors. That seems fine, I'd, be fine, having a leave open property as well. That doesn't seem problematic. It even has some advantages so.

E

I'm a strong opinion.

U

Because somebody will pay, as I already saw, that want, because I only saw the view of the water, not precise or according yeah we're.

M

Detecting coding from byte order, mark switch, isn't listed here.

M

No and that's still really the point, although it would be nice to know who I suppose if it was left open.

M

If you were getting this thing passed around, is it gonna be closed? Whatever I don't know, I guess that's pretty rare, never mind so go ahead and add defaults to the to the largest constructor, then for both of those.

D

I think validating, along the way that it doesn't change any possible call to use a different overload than otherwise would have.

M

Can that that can happen from ordering changes.

M

Sorry, what was up, how about your bio, ting, the defaults I.

D

Don't know that it could happen, I'm just wondering if there's.

E

Any possible way it could and it could. We should avoid it, but well.

J

Probably can't I don't think it's a case of we should avoid it. We should, if it if we could find the case where it does, we should make sure it's not changing the behavior.

E

Right! That's that it's not where.

D

Else, the drivers more concerned, like accidently, specifying a value for B Pope and when you meant to specify detect by order encoding and things like that, because there's two goals in.

M

M

Nice I think that's always first, it would only be if the ordering got reversed somehow and where the bull came. The Bulls are flipped.

U

M

I was dejected floating for byte order mark and leave. Oh yeah. Are we.

J

Not just going to make a constructor with the most arguments have all the default parameters. Yeah.

M

Yeah they're just saying it like if one of the smaller ones has the those two beakers.

D

Yeah, but if I was purple over it, it doesn't make sense, though, to do all of that because, like you, would never specify both an encoding and a detect encoding value like argument. At the same time, there they're in Cortland.

J

The true well I mean you could say, detect encoding, but use this as the fallback.

J

Because there's.

C

Plenty of times for.

J

Utf-8, which is our default fallback, is not the correct default fallback.

D

So does that mean we actually have two different instructors with the coco largest number of arguments.

Q

D

Those will be on stream readers. An Austrian writer, like stream writer, has like streamwriter, never ever looks at existing stuff. We.

M

Talk about both alright well right now, we don't have one with all five right, but we have.

D

A two with four: yes right, so how do we specify we were there with four with optional.

G

Arguments is that possible. We would have to add a fifth.

M

All right is there is there is a stream reader that takes stream and coding, detective old coding for byte order, marks and buffer size by online publisher.