DXdao DXgov Weekly Gathering, 15 Jun 2022

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From YouTube: DXgov Weekly Gathering [2022-06-15]

Description

00:03 Welcome
00:15 Proposal Round-up
01:36 DevX AG Proposal and Discussion
22:07 RPCs on Gonsis Chain
24:48 Blockchain Review and Report Discussion
40:30 stETH Depeg Discussion
57:10 Karpatkey: Still on-going discussion

A

Welcome to deep style governance discussion for wednesday june 15 1500 utc. Let's start first with the proposal roundup here, we've got some puzzles good about proposals on mainnet and xdy. Let me share my screen here.

A

There we go um yeah. Actually, let's start first with notice changes, because I'm here there now um yeah, so we've got a couple different proposals here at the top. um These actually are scheme deregister proposals- we had put these in about two weeks ago and I think five of them went through, but these two um seem to have gotten stuck and were, I think, augusto's looking into that there, uh those at the top. I think these were actually schemes involved in the original deployment of deke style.

A

So it's it's a bit hard to figure that out but yeah. This was part of our our spring cleaning effort um for the schemes there, um and then we have space image development, work for may 2022 um for payment for 36 000 in usdc, um and then we have the couple different buyback proposals.

A

We have milton from the dxgov team's proposal melanie from contributor x proposal. We have philip 16. I'll use that one proposal two he's been helping out on swapper and then ether labs, a b um thinking providing help on on swapper there and then dev x, a g d style sda. This is a pros. It's also on mainnet, um maybe yeah, I don't know dave. Do you want to chat briefly about this? There's some good discussion in the forum um and maybe a preview of how people be able to take advantage of this in the future.

B

We might be missing dave, which is which is funny because I, like just talked to dave yeah. He was 10 minutes ago chatting about this call, but yeah yeah.

C

This is a this.

B

Is interesting I actually haven't read through the full text here, but I mean, if I understand what this is: it's it's about, making sure that the style can actually pay contributors and in different locations.

A

Yeah- and so this was yeah, um maybe his internet went out- he was getting delivery when I was there, um but anyway yeah. So this was on the back of a proposal that was about payment facilitation, service providers, and this is work that dave's been doing um regarding setting up a entity in uh the eu to help facilitate payments, um as I think this will help most of the uh eu um folks pretty pretty well and yeah.

A

So this is like the first um initiative of this, like the first basically to fund this through uh geeks down, and so then the payments would actually come for. Contributors who were contributing to deet stout would be able to receive payments from devx ag um and then dave. You are here.

D

um Sorry I tried chris if I could have a minute uh before dave speaks. I I something just crossed my mind and it's something that ross would probably be very much interested in. I just realized we could have a discussion on the public forum say for a week and then someone could submit a signal proposal and looking from my perspective, I just assume which is wrong, that it's the same text, but someone could pass something that is different from what we've been discussing on the forum. So somehow in the future iterations of dx vote.

D

We should have a note where it's an embedded link from a post or it's a freshly typed text that could be different from the post, so people pay attention to any differences and also in the future, as we'll have our like forum inside dx vote, it could help like with ceramic, where we have uh immutable versions of discussions and not some posts on a centralized forum that someone could change. Yeah.

A

I think that's yeah, I think that's good for, like the discussion on dx vote and integrating with the forum and makes um sense there. I don't is there? Is there a difference from the forum here or because I think in general right of course, like what is unchained or what is the ipfs?

A

Here is what ultimately matters, and so, whenever I'm kind of working a proposal, if I do make changes, I try to note that in the dow talk um thread just be like made these changes at this time to kind of document it but yeah at the end of the day, it's of course what's going on in the um in the proposal on chain and in the actual proposal text throughout ipfs, um yeah david. I don't know if you wanted to uh talk anymore about this uh dev xag.

A

I gave a brief overview, maybe not as good as you could do.

E

Sure I mean I I I missed your brief overview, but I think this has been something that's been worked on for the while, and it mainly addresses uh particularly for the excel, currently the issues for european contributors, where it can be very challenging depending on jurisdiction.

E

You live in uh to receive income, and so devex is just a company in switzerland which can kind of like take the whole uh legal and regulatory burden of contributors, and um I mean the the advantages for each contributor is slightly different here and there I think the main one is of course vat.

E

So as soon as you enter, the eu, every country has a known vit rate, of course, and if which is a value-added tax for those who don't know, and it's a it's a tax that is charged on every service and good, um which goes to an end consumer to a customer. Of course.

E

In our eyes, the exam isn't a customer, it's a business, but given that you're not able to provide the tax authority with a company where the excel is incorporated or a tax number, uh vat is typically due on all contributor payments or any payment.

E

Really you receive uh for services you provide to the dao which and the I believe the average vat rate is around 21 to 23 in europe, which is a very high burden because after you deduct the vat rate, you still have to pay your income tax, etc, um and so switzerland is a somewhat more efficient there. It's of course, also not in the eu but in the european economic area, so it has somewhat more uh sovereignty and the the the vit rate, for example in switzerland, is 7.7.

E

So that's already a big uh kind of like advantage. There, then for other contributors. It's also just moving crypto into a bank account right, so especially in scandinavia or some eastern european countries.

E

They just simply don't accept any crypto or banking at all right, so it also allows developers to just receive their salary in as a regular bank transfer as you would in a normal company or you could even you know, get half and half whatever the contributor really prefers right, but uh the main goal here is really to take off that, like legal regulatory and tax burden of uh contributors who are currently facing those issues, yeah.

A

Yeah cool and the this is actually the gnosis chain proposal, but then the mainnet proposal, uh maybe we can switch over there. Actually, um the mainnet proposal actually sends funds. Is that correct.

E

Correct yeah, so it sends so. This is how it'll probably work moving forward is that any funds sent to devex a gay will also incur vit. So it's sending a hundred k, but uh it's actually in the proposal sending a hundred seven point: seven uh just to the added vit.

F

uh Cool just had a couple questions, so I I mean. I think this is a really valuable setup for those that don't haven't been able to figure out another setup. um Is there any yeah like just sending money to a random swiss entity like where we don't know the people? We don't know anything about them like? Is there any?

F

Is there any uh security or comforter comfortness for like we know that this is this entity, won't just walk away with the money or um like yeah, we're just sending them money and hoping that they'll eventually pay it out to contributors and then that the fees of three thousand dollars a month plus five percent of all payments?

F

My guess, that's it seems kind of high. But um but is that standard? Do you think, or is that for that type of service, because I've seen other ones that are cheaper, but they seem less professional too? They seem vibrant, oh yeah,.

E

um Well, on the first matter, I think you know there always is a. I mean as soon as you go into traditional world. There is some like trust uh there right, but I think the issue is to like regularly top up the amount instead of like sending, for example, two million now and say that you know it'll pay for payments over the next two years. It's a more ad hoc top-up, in fact, contributors could also uh just claim their payment and send it to the devex.

E

If address, that would also uh be an option moving forward, it's really more ui ux stuff right like if, if the company already holds some funds and the proposal passes, the bank transfer could happen immediately right. In the other case, uh the funds would be moved to the address. uh The address then has to be kyc aml from the bank side to make sure the funds are okay and that's also kind of where the costs come in.

E

So the thing in switzerland is like it's very expensive jurisdiction and like even in switzerland, uh you don't have a reg. You can't go to a regular bank and like do these activities right, you have to use a private bank. That is like aware of what you're doing aware that the funds come from the dow, and I, like the banking costs alone, are 20 000 a year just to open a bank account.

E

Then you have directorship and financial costs, which is another 10 000 just for them to be like listed, and then it's uh on top of that you have regular banking fees and pro rata hours, for accounting, directorship services, etc.

E

And so that's one thing that switzerland will be more expensive than other jurisdictions, but um other jurisdictions could also if, for example, if you get your salary paid from, I mean, if you get your salary paid from a tax haven, then you'll again run into issues with withholding taxes etc.

E

So you know the costs are due to the choice of jurisdiction. I would say there are probably more efficient ones in terms of cost wise there, but down the line. You'll, probably start running into issues again when you go to tax havens or move fund through, like less uh you know, regulated countries. That's like one of the main issues you have in europe. I mean europe has like a list of non-conforming tax havens, which you can check where a lot of people do incorporate companies but then again receiving funds from there.

E

You would again run into like a lot of issues just with I think withholding taxes are like 30, 35 percent. So if you get a 25.

G

E

A transfer from like the british virgin islands or cayman islands like the bank would automatically withhold 35, just as because it comes from a tax haven. You know, so that is a a thing that switzerland is more expensive, yeah for sure.

G

Dude can I can, I add, like two things I think, from the quotes that I had received like quite some time ago regarding um other kind of developer.

G

You know llc type companies based in europe or the european area, european economic area. The fees were even higher, actually, I think, closer to 10, because I think they were also um accounting for their their time um to deal with the transactions.

G

uh So I think that this is somewhat lower um relatively speaking and then the other thing is well, I'm not sure how many contributors here need to do this, but if you're in usually with you like, for example, if you're in portugal or other places, you usually have to register your activity, even if it's as an independent contractor or even if it's just as maybe a regular contracted work with dxdow, which I think a lot of these locations would consider more long-term employment.

G

So another way to kind of confirm that you know the money needs to be given to the individual, just kind of like what you all do with the uh it's, the the and I want to say portugal right now, but I mean polish, the polish uh dev shop is you just have individual contributors do a con like a work contract also with devx.

G

uh You know saying how much funds and stuff they're owed every time they basically do the invoice. I think that would also maybe suffice to show that the money won't be. You know used for other purposes than what's said on chain.

B

I think another important point here too, is I'll post, that you know we had just passed the signal proposal calling for payment facilitators, and so I think this is a piece of that puzzle and it's like an important step like uh specifically for for europe, but it's not like the whole picture right so like it still will be possible to interact with entities in the united states or like other jurisdictions.

B

We maybe emulate what a maker dow does as well, and I think you know the cost will probably be less in in some cases and more in others, and only like a certain amount of contributors actually even need these services.

B

So, like you know, if this is something like a 15 premium over what the excel is actually paying people uh but like if you look at it as a whole, it's maybe only like half of the contributors and most that need it, and then that can even be distributed amongst uh different entities as well, and so I think the the premium over, like you know, the contributor payments, like will probably average out to be something like around five percent or so or less.

B

Maybe even, and I think like one of the key things here is- is having it be redundant right like having it be distributed, and so that there aren't centralized points of failure going back kind of the key point about takes now trying to be as decentralized as possible.

B

But yeah like just to pointing out that this is like part of a bigger picture. It's not like the the only solution.

E

Yeah totally agree- and I think, like the largest overhead here again, is like v80, which is actually taxes right. So that's not like, of course, that's just going to the swiss government and I think in a traditional company, you would have like a much higher tax burden anyway, right and like the exile has, due to the nature of being a dao we're not based in any jurisdiction. We've never paid any tax anywhere right. Taxes would be much higher, and here, of course, taxes are only paid on funds actually moved through this specific dev shop.

E

Right like on other jurisdictions like in the us, for example, you don't have vit, so I think on the if you average it out later on, it will definitely be lower.

D

um I I have a question like um we mentioned the dev shop, that we've outsourced and like they are a company that pays uh those people uh tax and security, almost like opelus and like what what the proposal makes me imagine is more of a money transmitter and you know, there's this regulation around money, transmitters that ask them to kyc and aml they their clients.

G

D

And also there won't be like any security uh in in terms of like uh healthcare and stuff. So it's it's like it's not an issue that I have. My question is like: would regulators see it as a dev shop or not.

G

So that's a great question: um that's actually the one great thing about this proposal and I think needs to be thought about generally with everyone who is not actually working as a contractor, but actually works full-time for the dow is especially in europe. um There are requirements for social security that you know the likelihood of someone uh like the government or something reaching out, and you know suing dx dow.

G

Can they sue dx dao uh is a question of course, but like the dev shop should definitely consider and start accounting for social security um because it actually is set up in a way, fortunately not to be. What you're talking about is like a money transmitter in the united states, like obviously anyone who has a cryptocurrency account and receives money into that account and then doesn't tell the bank that they're, essentially just transferring that money to like another person, is an unlicensed money transmitter and the fee.

G

The fines there can be like five thousand dollars a day. um Luckily, for this particular dev shop is that it's basically built for the purpose of taking payments from the dow and the swiss banks, and the swiss government is are aware of this. But yeah you're right, like that last portion is people should, if they're working full time for the dow can start associating social security and other basic um employment law issues. That would come up in the jurisdiction that they're residing.

E

Yeah- and I think like it is also advisable that you know we do have a dx tower contributor stipend to set up a legal entity it. I think it is generally advisable that, even if people do want to use devex uh to receive their payment, that they still set up a limited liability company in their own jurisdiction and receive payment through that, uh that way I mean, there's no kyc. Really you!

E

The only data share, is really the company's data right rather than the individuals data, but it is also an option to employ someone full time and register as an actual employer. If that's something the dow ever decides to do. Of course right, um but that does you know, like tammy said, that has a lot more implications with social security, healthcare, pension contributions and stuff. It is something that is possible, but I think in the at least in the near immediate term, it makes more sense.

E

You know that people do make use of this type and that's already out there to incorporate the legal liability company and limited liability company, and um typically it also works out better tax wise. um You know if you have a company, because then you can write off your expenses for the company and stuff, but yeah it theoretically. Employment would also be possible, but that would be you know. Then you have a contract. You have uh in europe, it's a lot. It's we don't really have at will employment.

E

So it's a much higher burden to both the dow and devex. I would say.

G

Yeah but like yeah exactly, but if anyone is interested in that based off of their situation, maybe raise it at some point into the dow and go from there.

A

Cool yeah I've been telling everyone I meet in crypto that I don't care. If you're an accountant designer developer or lawyer, um you should figure out how to get paid by dows, because that's what's going to be the big consumers going forward of all types of services um so yeah. This is exciting to see this and yeah. Hopefully, a relief to a lot of our eu uh contributors. Who've been experiencing headaches.

A

Cool and then um there's a couple other proposals on uh mainnet: we have uh the uh augusto ld bulk withdrawal. This is the second one I corrected it, and so there was also one from violet on gnosis chain for the dxd withdrawal.

A

So it's good to see some of those there and I believe there is now a post in the forum about step by step or on how to do that from ali and ali is trying to meet with everyone before she goes through that, just to make sure that the numbers are right and kind of confirming that there um so um reach out to ali. If there's any questions there, um and then there are two proposals here are kind of worth highlighting um one is these: is the staking each stakewise one of four?

A

This is boosted in and would pass in in seven hours and 47 minutes. This is um this is referencing a signal proposal that passed a couple weeks ago about staking 2008 with um stakewise. This is the first of potentially four proposals and then the second one is actually just boosted uh or pending boost right now um we'll get to that in a second so maybe table. uh Let's table the conversation for right now and just get through the rest of these proposals um and then yeah there's.

A

uh I guess the last one here is the update, swapper dot, eth content, hash to swapper v, 1.00 beta 13., so another swapper um uh release here getting more frequent here. I don't know if anyone from the swapper team wants to uh wants to say anything. There were some good notes listed, I'm not sure if they're on listed here, but um so good notes from here here we go enhanced ecobridge experience.

A

New eco router integrations do-it-yourself farming and gas tracker for polygons, so nice job dollar swapper team for getting this release out, and it will need a vote in 20 hours, starting at 20 hours.

A

um So that's it for the proposal roundup. As I said, we're going to get to the stakewise discussion in just a minute here, um but I did just want to like kind of talk briefly about some of the discussion items. um The first one is just dx vote and um alchemy um in general they're. Actually, both working, I think fine right now, um uh I think, uh alchemy, even on nose's chain is actually working.

A

uh Sorry about an hour ago was checking that, um and so I know that there's been some kind of inconsistencies with that.

A

A lot of it is due to rpc issues on gnosis chains, so do try to install a new um put the new rpc in your metamask if you're having trouble loading noses chain on dx vote, um but just wanted to kind of highlight that and know that, yes, there is like maybe some trouble with submitting proposals or getting uh there um and for everyone to be a little bit more vigilant about kind of looking and checking on things um and knowing things going forward, but um yeah as I think everything is actually working right now um with alchemy kind of getting back up and then yeah dx vote.

A

As long as you have, the right, rpc seems to be working. um I don't know if there was any comment from dave or maybe a gustor ross on kind of deex vote stuff. Here we've been troubleshooting some stuff there and yeah best place to look in the the support channel in dxgov.

H

Not really, I submitted a pull request where we are where I fixed some issues on the the expo side. uh Arbitrary test net and ring kv has been removed from production, so you will be able to use mainnet um hennessy chain and arbitro in production, and if you want to use the test networks, you you have to write on on development.

H

I fixed the governance information page where now we can also see what, after we merge it, the repeat the repetition percentage of every address. I remove the permissions table that wasn't used and fix an issue where we were detecting the wrong uh register schemes.

H

Now we have only three registers schemes in kenosha change: the contribution reward, multi-col and scheme residual that happen after we remove the the other schemes in tennessee chain and now the same thing should happen on maintenance, where we are going to have again like only the schemes that we need, which I think are going to be. Three multicores contribution rewards are an ema and an ens provider.

A

Cool thank you for that um yeah and then moving on to the next discussion discussion item. We have here um yeah and then the blockchain review and report um proposal, and I see tammy on the call so tammy. Maybe you wanna um give some background here.

G

Yeah, so uh I initially referenced the budget proposal from september 2021, because I think that was the last quarter that I was working full-time um as I guess, like quote-unquote council for dx dao, uh basically like we did some stuff through that. The main thing, of course, is what we just talked about was trying to figure out some payment solutions for european developers, which is dave, took on a lot of that work with um working with mme um and the related uh legal costs associated with setting that entity up.

G

uh One of the line items on that budget was in relation to hiring a um external analysis chaining out like chain, not, I say blockchain analysis firm to review, essentially our treasury. um The reason for that was initially because we were having issues in doing venture capital grants to projects through dx ventures. I had done like a very ad hoc one with um like a part-time contributor back, I think in june uh that was like not sufficient.

G

I would say in most cases when we reached out to like d like venture related um projects, depending on their like risk like profile right um from there. I remember dave at one point was unsure: if we would need something like this to actually set up the legal entity, we found some workarounds through that.

G

I think, through this separate separate um token contract address, that's being that's been kyc for um the devx ag, uh but basically things were on pause with that, because the uh analysis firm dropped off because we didn't have a legal entity to contract with whatever fine. um But then back in april, I think I came on a uh one of the business biz dev calls on on a monday and was talking more about kind of russia, sanctions and some of the stuff that chain analysis was doing more.

G

I think api, like back end related in screening, sanctioned addresses. The topic had gotten really hot, of course, with everything that had happened in the ukraine and recently targeted sanctions directed at russia um yeah. So because of that conversation I spoke with um the former head of engineering at chanalysis, and someone not listed on the proposal. Is this a uh guy named matt? He currently works at chanalysis. Does a lot of research for them and the two of them basically said we can do like a review of the treasury also suggest to do.

G

Rep holder addresses and then there's kind of been like a lot of back and forth of, like what other scope should something like this cover.

G

um The real reason that I would suggest doing it is because, since I left, I I've been working with one company and a couple other projects that are part of the the blockchain association and they were contacted by um the uh financial services committee for the house of representatives, um specifically regarding like who, in the industry, is uh complying with, like sanctions, um of course, on russia, but just targeted sanctions in general, and when I say on russia, I don't mean the whole country of russia.

G

There's specific addresses that have been put on this like target targeted sanction list and when I say addresses I mean bitcoin, addresses and like sanctioned, addresses um so yeah. That was the purpose of this, but I think it's important to see what you all think of it at this point. Now that it's been, I think two and a half months.

F

Yeah, I can just add um the the benefits I see to this. Oh so, first of all, in this space that is, doesn't really have regulations and countries for like the world. We live in like self-regulation and setting examples and best practices which we've done in a number of scenarios, is always a really positive thing and being proactive about it.

F

um Doing a report that maybe like because there's an idea of doing this, every quarter, which is not really what we want to do, but doing a one-off report that shows that the money that came into dx, dow treasury was that that we could share publicly, because the one we did was only a private, one-off one that we shared with one set of lawyers.

F

It's not a public one, having a report that shows that all the money that went into the dx dow treasury came from um wallets that were not flagged or sanctioned is a very valuable asset to have for, for you know, for standards.

F

For you know, if anyone comes looking at the money and then also in scenarios where we want to make grants or investments to companies in different countries and places or even contributors want to get paid by the dow, it's very powerful to know that that money is not um tainted money from what like bad wallets.

F

That came into the treasury, and that can be a one-off report that will always exist and and that's a very valuable asset, and we can hopefully share that publicly, and I think other dows will probably want to follow that example, and eventually that, like a lot of dows, will do that and we'd probably be one of the first public dows to release something like that and so and then, as I know, there were some questions about the cost it 20k for that that asset owning that asset and being able to share that publicly.

F

After talking with people like yeah, I was at a channel event. I've talked to a bunch of people there, like the the cost, is often much much higher than that.

G

F

You pay per wallet, and things like that. So this this is a this is a one-off cost and 20k is not cheap, but it's compared to what it could be. I think this is actually a decent price, but the question is: do we do we think that you know people ask? Is this like good to have, or is it like? Do we need this today?

F

There's not like another specific reason. We need it this week but like I think that would be a a valuable asset for the dow to have basically going forward, and you know rep holders and there's new rep holders join, so the rep holders is less interesting to me, but the knowing that the money that came into dx, dow, that is being used and being spent on all of the things that dxdot does is a is a valuable like badge that we could publish.

F

You know on our on our docs and our website, and things like that overall, but.

A

That's my perspective, so I think it would be valuable only if there was a specific request or need for what that would be used for, because I think, like the concern is, if someone does come asking for this, then the assumption would be that this report that we've already created would be usable for that, but like to me, it makes much more sense to wait until you actually get asked for that to spend the money on that, because then we know for sure that the report that's produced will actually be useful for what it is intended to need, and so yeah, and I made a comment on on this there- that um I think this is much more of a nice to have um considering kind of everything that's going on with the market right now.

A

We kind of did some expenses a couple weeks ago, but we're like the burn rate is is rising. I just don't think this is like justifies the the 20k for right now, um just because um if this was.

G

A

Then we could go out and engage someone to do that, and then I guess the last comment I made on year, or we kind of talked about the q4 legal budget signal proposal. um That originally said this report would cost ten thousand dollars and then that also that proposed, that proposal has gone over in terms of cost of fifty three thousand 000. So I'm again just a little concerned about the cost here and then yeah. The last point is, you know we are still looking for a dow council.

A

We've got a couple different candidates that we're talking about here. um Some people have been interviewed. Maybe some people listening uh at home, we're going to chat more about this with the contributor x team this week, but just as dave was experiencing setting up the entity with mme. I think it is better to have someone full time focused on this, because actually with dave's efforts in mme, which is really good, that we've got I've got this dev uh x-a-g set up now.

A

um I think it took away from some of the things he couldn't focus on in the treasury and governance aspects, and so I think, if we are going to engage in doing something like this, um I think it makes sense to have um a dow council uh that we are currently uh considering to to execute on that going forward.

A

So, like I think with that, okay, as I said here, I'm right now uh a no on this in its uh current form but yeah, something we should be considering mindful of making sure that we're regulatory compliant whenever um so always. I.

G

Hear you I hear you uh chris, um but yeah. I do think you're conflating the fifty three thousand dollars to forty thousand dollars to set up the devx company and just based on my experience and time that I've now previously put into this and based on conversations that I've had with you all in doing this, it's actually not easy to find people if you're requested, first of all to well two things.

G

When uh the house financial services committee uh requested whether or not you're complying with sanctions, they're not saying forward thinking, are you complying with sanctions? It's what are you doing now like what policies and procedures do you have have in place already? And what have you already done uh to comply with sanctions because that's the nature of the law? It's not about hey. Let me ask you to now be compliant.

G

It's have you been compliant so actually having the report, you can't uh you know, make up for it in the future to pretend, as if you're, acting in good faith in the past right. So that's one thing. um The second thing is like I said: finding people to do this.

G

um It took me a bit of time because, like as skye said, uh it's quite expensive and without a legal entity, maybe now easier with devx, but it's very difficult to find people who are skilled enough to actually take on this work via an on-chain proposal because they're in the compliance sector. So I was fortunately through my contacts able to reach out to two people that I think are more than qualified to take care of this now and they may not be available in the future.

G

Both of them have full-time jobs, and they had actually just asked me to post this, and they gave a timeline of three weeks to have it completed uh on their behalf, because I know you all and I'm familiar with you um and I figured kind of like other clients. I have aside from my in-house work at open that I would just you know, kind of pro write, a payment uh kind of like outside counsel. For this work, though I don't think that should take away from any efforts.

G

You've now worked towards in finding a new council uh for the position uh to like advise the dow.

G

So I think uh you know if you can't find people that easily to do something like this better to do it now and also again. I know the treasury is being affected by the price of ethereum, but the treasury is still hefty at 20 million dollars and a 20 000 cost currently for something that should not change next quarter and can be, you know, on file and provided which is kind of how aml law works.

G

Generally speaking is, I think, good to do like kind of a need, especially based on the climate of everything going on with geopolitical stuff and honestly bear markets tend to lead to more regulatory enforcement, not less so it's obviously a deterrent. Hopefully you never have to use it, but it would be better to have and publicize than not.

F

Yeah, I think it would be interesting for other people here, or maybe a signal or a vote in the forum like to get a view on. If dxdow community thinks there's a benefit to having this, you know having compliance ahead of time versus only when we need it and then and then like as a as a contributor to dxdao.

F

Would you be more comfortable having a public report that shows that all the dx dao uh treasury funds have not come from any bad um wallets and addresses, and things and like that could help attract contributors to dick style. Potentially, that, like are like scared to work for now, because they don't know where the money came from, and it's just. It creates additional comfort plus preemptive um compliance for things that may come in the future. So, but I agree, 20k is not yet maybe.

A

um Just some mindful time, because we have like a huge discussion, I think, with st coming up. So maybe any last less.

D

Yeah I'll try and fit mine in a couple of minutes. On one hand, I see this as something timeless.

D

That could be somewhat beneficial, not just to see what happened in the past, but if there is any claim drop in the future, if you know that a certain address being associated with something you could exclude that address from a potential claim drop in the future, but on the other hand you know I I've been following like alex cherwinski and and gabe uh shapiro, if it quacks like a duck and and walks like a duck, it's likely a duck so like the uh bonding curve, is a permissionless contract and and for the record, because this is recorded, we're a bunch of random people from all over the world like this is no company, so it's not like there has ever been any sale like it's.

D

A permissionless contract addresses random addresses globally, have interacted with it. So it's like the more you behave as a company, the more you are perceived as a company, so I'm somewhere in the middle on one hand, I see benefits, and I I see it as something timeless.

D

Neither urgent nor something to postpone, on the other hand, I'm still questioning like how needed it is.

A

Cool yeah and let's um keep chat in the forum. It's actually one of the few posts we have lately. That has some good conversation. It's good to get, I think, more conversation in the forum there, so maybe take some of these thoughts and put another thread there.

G

Okay, just wanted to add two points, um basically yeah exactly yeah, so I hope everyone's okay with you know, based on my time and energy put into this, I would request you know payment for my time, uh even if you don't go forward with actually that's completely separate from the 20k for these um analysts um and I'll just let them know we can like weigh in a little bit more over the next week and just like, let me know what you think um but yeah. I hope you also take weight from what I've said.

G

I've now been working in this field and was counsel to dxdow for quite some time. uh That should mean something, but it's you know up to you all to decide what you want to do.

A

Well, you've got rep too, so it's all the governance um cool. So let's um chat is it steph? What are we saying? St e staked ease? um I think the lido eath, it's always very confusing with all of the uh state det ones, but yeah obviously market's been changing a lot, there's a whole bunch of uh things going on, but one of them is a potential st eath peg and there's been some good discussion in the forum about this from kenan and some turnover to him, but just before we do that keenan.

A

I do want to like kind of in terms of like framing the discussion here. There are currently two proposals to say to send 500 eth to the multi-sig to stake into stakewise, which is s eth, which is not the one that is depending this was part of a signal proposal that was passed by um um that was passed about a month ago. That was actually submitted by stakewise to stake an additional um 2k eth.

A

um So that's this one, that's the first of four that would pass potentially in seven and a half hours and then there's one that was just boosted um that would pass in seven days um so yeah, that's kind of where the discussion um keenan. I don't know if you wanted to set the table in terms of what you think kind of the opportunity is here.

G

And that maybe.

A

Like dave, can kind of chat uh reply with his his thoughts that he had.

C

Yeah thanks for for kicking this off, um please bear with me here didn't get an incredible sleep last night, but uh I think steve steak eat. I don't know what you want to call it. I like st eat or steath just for the fun of it, but I think it represents a pretty sizable opportunity right now in the steak, eat kind of climate and liquid staking options.

C

um I am aware that there's some centralization factors to consider uh and maybe doesn't necessarily complement our uh strategy, uh but it's worth noting that uh the peg right now is about five percent off on state eat versus uh regular eat, of course, about 0.95 I'll drop a chart here in the chat just for visual aid um and I'll also put this form thread if you have not yet seen it, but I think it's garnered quite a bit of attention here, but basically the idea is that um the stick heath is d-pegged.

C

um You know we have staked eat, we want to stake our eat. I think it just makes a lot of sense to you know, pick up some a little slowly and also position ourselves to snag it. If there's a serious liquidation, cascade or any serious depending uh in the coming months, um I don't wanna go crazy on the discussion here. I think this is uh probably been started well by you, chris, but happy to support and chat this.

A

Yeah dave, um I guess there's um there's really. I think when we think about this um right now, deke style has one thousand staked eath, I think that's you know. Basically, ten percent of all of deke styles, eve um of that state. Fifty percent of it is in lido state deep 30 is in yeah rocket pool and 20 is in state wise.

A

um I think there is a pretty much undeniable um market opportunity for that fits deek styles, financial risk profile, meaning dx dow is super long eath and has a there's an asset that could pay out in um uh you know, at a premium in in a year or two or whatever kind of whenever you're able to actually do uh withdrawals there. So from a financial risk perspective. I think it's pretty undeniable that there is um some opportunity here from a deke style priorities and goals perspective.

A

um I think, acquiring more staked eath supports the largest liquid staking derivative out there. That I think, has a as a serious concerns on on serious decentral's, serious decentralization concerns for ethereum, and so one of the reasons that dieksdale um engaged with stakewise and why statewide submitted that proposal was precisely because dx dao. I think is incumbent upon them as a as a responsible member of the ethereum community that values decentralization to make sure that geeksdale is not contributing to the centralization of staking.

A

So I think the question is like: how do we reconcile what is like a pretty clear, obvious market opportunity um with the you know, long-term or not that really the core priorities of deep stout in terms of promoting uh decentralization efforts? um So I think that's.

A

What's kind of the balance here, um I don't know if yeah like how far I go down or what other kind of different things that are there, but I think maybe there could be a discussion precisely because there is a thousand, if that's on its way, to be staked right now in proposals and also another thousand years that could be submitted to proposals over the next couple days. In relation to the signal proposal that was passed just last month.

A

So I think there may is a question: does it make sense to redirect some of those funds to stake e or sde to take advantage of the d-peg rather than buying or purchasing um stakewise eth, where the peg is still the same? uh Now I think we did that there would definitely have to be a new proposal and we kind of have to outline different things, but maybe those are some of the parameters that we could be considering here.

E

Yeah I mean I pretty much agree with everything. Chris said. I think you know. One thing to keep in mind, of course is also the stakewise proposal that was submitted by stakewise and, of course you know we don't we don't really sign contracts as a dow, but it's probably passing an on-chain proposal is the closest to signing a contract. We do right and uh I also think you know we should definitely limit our exposure to lido.

E

So you know it is currently fifty percent of our total staked east, and perhaps we should try to maintain it at that level. You know to limit it at a maximum of 50 percent, um and so you know, I think, uh probably makes sense to move forward with the first stakewise proposal. That's passing in a couple of hours, but potentially you know out of those 2000 total if we could redirect 50 um to lido and still do 1000 with stakewise, but you know we should definitely pass the proposal to do so.

E

You know to kind of like override uh the former one. You know. I know stakewise, of course, put a lot of effort into it as well, and um you know, of course we also have an opportunity in the market which we want to take, but I think we should find equilibrium between that and also just generally, our exposure to lido yeah and also in the forum. There was discussion about limit orders, so I think you know I think personally, I I really doubt we'll see a stake ether at a 25 discount.

E

You know uh steak is backed by ethan the beacon chain. There is some um um reward if that doesn't yet really exist until the merge happens, and you can't withdraw it. So there's kind of like a time delay, but I think like much larger um funds or you know people will- I will come in before that we even reach a 25 discount.

E

You know so probably make sense to give a bit more thought at how we should actually acquire lido if we choose to do so if it is through some limit orders or if we do just want to buy on the market, uh because you know there is an op- a possibility, of course, that if we do set a limit order at a 25 discount uh that it'll just never fill right. So that's something to probably consider as well.

F

A

B

Lighter concerns yeah john, oh yeah dave. Do you know where those charts are that show the breakdown of the validators? That keenan was asked. I was just looking.

E

Yeah, I was just googling for it and I couldn't find it just now on hand.

A

Yeah, I couldn't find it anywhere when I was oh.

E

C

A

E2 deposits is that what it is like what percentage lido is of that.

C

Yeah I was under the impression it was pretty bad and then it kind of reached a bit of a healthier ratio, but I can't find context on that now.

E

Yeah I mean it's, it's definitely lied on number one at like 33 percent, followed by rocket pool, apparently, as uh they've actually been growing significantly, um but I'll. Oh I'll, see. If I find the I there was actually a bloomberg article. I think the link is in the bloomberg article. I just need to find it.

I

So um I'm just I was just like you know. As you were talking, I went to the forums and I see there's a proposal from lido um from like two weeks ago. It's called like preparing for the bear market and it's to sell like 10k eath, which is like 65 percent of their eat um to die, and you know that cell would have given them like 17 million dollars.

I

Now it gives them like nine or something um so like it's an interesting question like about their runway right, I feel like a lot of dows have been, um or just like a lot of companies and thousands raised money like diversified the treasury in right, and I don't think lido has done that so like interesting, like I don't just like wondering.

A

So that is yeah farm post worth checking out because it's kind of like, uh but I think actually the reason was lydo. The company has raised money and is capitalized, but that was asking for like lido the dao, which only has eth to diversify and part of like the question in the forum, the discussion was like wait. Most shouldn't development be funded by like the funds that the company raised um but like yeah, not to say. I think there are concerns about vito um with that post and also like in general.

A

You talk about the centralization concerns and things there. So um I definitely don't think we should be putting all of our eggs in in that basket alone.

A

I think this is the the one I have. Here's like the e2 there's like a e2 deposit there, which right says 35 of all e2 deposits are liquid, staking and then 32 of those. I think oh no yeah, so 32 percent of all e2 deposits are light up.

E

Yeah and uh of all liquids tokens. Ninety point: eight percent is slido. I'd share the link in the chat here.

I

Isn't there some statistic that uh kraken is also like 20 or something.

E

E

Oh yeah, because cricket's got a couple here.

A

Yeah well, this is an interesting um yeah kind of point and, as I said, I think something to monitor and that it would be something to take advantage of potentially with the existing eat. That's about to be staked but um kind of managing that, with the centralization risk I for one like don't think we should have more than fifty percent of fee style, state eath, be lido, state, eth and then also managing like whether we would want to change course from stakewise after they engaged with us.

A

So um some things to think about and yeah there's two proposals live, the first one would be about seven hours would pass and that would stake 500 eath through um stakewise and then the other one would be seven days from now so um vote and express your voice in the forum.

F

When dx dow um started thinking about staking some of its eath, um you know as dxdow always does it's like kind of test. The water start with a little bit. Do some more. Actually, let's do all three different versions of staking and then we kind of you know had a bunch of I think it was 2000 or whatever we had a bunch of e-state.

F

Then we kind of just settled on that and there was not like a desire to you know: stake 75 percent of the eat that dx dao had and now now we're coming into like a newer environment where yeah light. Oh did it or sorry steakwise did a proposal to stake more eth, um karpat keys, saying you know, dx style should stake more eth. There's this discount on lido for staking more eth is like.

F

Was there a reason why we didn't stake more eth in the beginning, or was it just because we were like easing into it and then what has changed that now dx dow, because there's something there's always a benefit to just holding plain eath too in this in this world- um and I know we do have plain eats but like what is the end goal for what percentage of the eat that dx, dow maybe holds, should be staked at the end of the of all of this discussions.

A

I don't think that's changed right. That was the conversation we had with stakewise right. We did the first a thousand each and then over I mean that was a conversation happened over a couple months. We were like okay, we would like to do more and then increase it to 2 000., I'm not sure if the d-peg means that d style should stake more eth than it has already planned to um stake. I think that's like a separate conversation.

A

I think the specific opportunity is that the d-peg is going on, while deke style is trying to stake another 2000 each, and so then it makes, I think sense. In that moment, there's a separate conversation of whether this d-peg or something else about the broader market that's been going on over the last month. Does that make deke style more likely to stake? um I would actually think less likely, just because you do see that even things that are backed by eth, you know there's a liquid there.

A

If there's a liquidity mismatch, um there is kind of a little bit of concern there. So I think the conservative nature has been pretty pretty good, but that's that's a discussion that maybe we should have that deep style should be taking more youth, but I think right now, it's more given the eat that is about to be staked.

A

Does it make sense, for that? Does the the the d-peg represent an opportunity to do something different with that.

F

Yeah and then there's there's also like a look like liquidity and access to liquidity is always something that should be thought about. Like we've had some dollars dollar stable tokens that maybe are less liquid than some other ones and that we hold we've held less of those, and then we actually got rid of one of them, because maybe there were some concerns so like the one benefit to lydo being the one that most people use is generally, it has the most liquidity.

A

F

A

Like literally right now, that's not true, like all the other staking derivatives are one-to-one, but lido is not it's 95 right.

F

You need discount yeah, but I'm talking about just liquidity in general, like use in an ecosystem right. Well, I mean.

A

All the other ones have pegs are liquid liquid at one to one and like stds is not liquid at one to one.

A

uh I don't think it's because they being used as collateral like people are levering up on it like there's a whole bunch of reasons. um For I know st is like a bigger one in general, um I don't think there's much of a like a liquidity concern for these, mostly because they all have pretty good curve pools. um But then you know the concerns become like other reasons that would affect the liquidity of it like if it's being used as collateral.

A

All in there you say state teeth, that's sd dave for maker down.

E

um Make it out, I know right now the onboarding rocket pool, and I I'm not, I think, stake wise as well. I'm not 100 true, but rocket pool 100.

A

Yeah yeah, so I mean this does I know we're running over on time here, but it does kind of you know, bring up a point here. At the end you can see who commented on the post says kaparki, and that was the conversation we had last week on that proposal. um I think there was a lot of questions and good discussion. We had last week on the governance call about whether that would be something that zeke style would be comfortable with, especially given like the size of the treasury.

A

I know we don't have enough time kind of to go in into it now, but I do think just given, like the the market conditions. We'd have to really think uh a little bit more about this and how we could figure out a way to make it make it work and whether we could leverage see if we can find a way to leverage capacity's ex expertise without you know giving up the sovereignty of the treasury or looking for some way for them to provide services in that.

A

So um I don't know if anyone has any quick thoughts on that uh here, um or we can kind of talk about that uh later next week on the forum I.

F

I proposed a method that I think solves a lot of the issues of dx dao being able to own the funds while using something that's nimble. I shared it.

F

You know in a smaller group, but I can either put it on the forum or we can create a new thing and share it with karpaki and see if they want to do that, but it leverages um it leverages nurses safe, which is what the tool that they all want to use, and it also allows dx dow to be the the owner um rather than a single person and all of the tech that allows that to happen um exist. The only thing is you'd say: you'd have some longer period.

F

You couldn't do instant transactions, you you'd have to have like a nine hour or a six hour, maybe a 12 hour window to execute transactions.

A

Yeah- and I guess when you're ready, definitely put that up on the forum, because then keep the conversation going because yeah I mean nathan's saying like leverage here like in a lot of ways. The the the only thing that deep stout can't do now in this existing treasury infrastructure, from like a sovereignty perspective um that kaparki is, is suggesting. The only thing that it can't do now is really leverage right. There's no leverage in the treasury, but geeksdale could be doing more in terms of market making.

A

I mean it would be an amms with the xd or with another one. It could be more aggressive in like using limit orders and the gp relayer for other diversification, but that would take like kind of planning and expertise in addition to the execution part um so yeah, I I I'm thinking it's important yeah that we keep our eye on the long-term prize of like this will help some with yield, but the best you know the big opportunity is like how to build these trustless um systems, and so part of it.

A

Maybe is just keeping things going with capacity who could be a partner in that? Maybe, along with mimik, um even if that's not something that we're like yeah, everything is figured out now just trying to build towards that future uh with them.

B

Yeah, the the other potential partner too, which we've kind of forgotten about there. I think, is this: um oh, I forgot what they rebranded you melonport became something else sky. Do you remember what the name enzyme.

A

It's enzyme, enzyme, enzyme, yeah and they're, like they refrain from something else.

B

Too, they were another one before that.

A

Or they had like a different name for their foundation. It's.

B

An avant-garde is the name of their like independent kind of like what the team became later so anyway. Yeah I mean, I think it makes sense to re, assess things, and I agree that I think the real goal here should be: what are we building long-term and who are the best partners for that, like this cop.